Even here in relatively enlightened Minnesota, we have loony paranormalists. John of Ghosts of Minnesota got to bring his skepticism along on one of those silly “ghost hunter” events in St Paul. Guess what? No ghosts.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Aren’t there some in the crackers in the Catholic churches? Or have you skewered them all?
Harry Houdini was the terror of those who were selling their contact with the afterlife, not because he was a critic or a skeptic, at least he didn’t say he was, but because they all disappointed him as he tried his hardest to contact his dearly-departed mother. Unfortunately for the afterlife-sellers, Harry knew the cons and would have none of it. The more he looked for contact, the more he ended up exposing the cons.
“I want to believe” indeed.
Fucking ghosts. They won’t leave me alone – what do they think I am a psychic surgeon? Miserable, dead, amputee bastards.
Incidentally…I am increasingly annoyed by the TOP FIVE MOST GERMAN sidebar. Top five most German – what? How do I tell?
I think you should insist that it now reads TOP FIVE MOST GERMANE. At least that might be of some more universal use.
wrong thread, Charlie
Wrong blog Charlie.
I don’t know anything about ghost hunting, or care to, but I’m gonna make a guess:
Most ghost hunts take place at night. Am I correct?
Departed souls hate the daylight for some reason… much like vampires and werewolves.
Wrong ideas, Charlie
Duh…it’s because they’re totally transparent in daylight! (Also, they come inside at night because they’re afraid of the dark, and don’t get on with vampires.)
My family does ghosthunts. They have all sorts of equipment they use to try to capture something. I’m their skeptic, they run things by me before boasting about it, figuring if I’m stumped they might have something (“orbs are dust or internal camera reflections” – they hate that answer). I have to admit, they have gotten some recordings that make me scratch my head – voices that shouldn’t have been there, that anyone can remember anyway – makes me wonder what we don’t know about energy fields, death, the other dimensions of the string theory (is that even the current one? lol). I went on a ghosthunt with them a couple years ago and the psychology of it is intense – nothing happened, but it’s the idea that something “might” that gets everyone going, and it’s contagious (I started jumping at shadows, which they then took as something happening lol). I’m convinced though that the place they went to had an EMF emitter setup to mess with the equipment to make things “happen” – batteries dying, digital noise, strange feelings (EMF can effect the senses) in order to get more people to pay to be there.
Funny picture of Jesus being busted by the Ghostbusters: http://brainrageblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/picture-of-day_15.html
Who is Charlie?
#9
I think you’re right about the psychological element of these ghosthunts. For example, on the television show Ghosthunters, it seems like 90% of it is spooky music, noise and watching people get scared. If you subtracted all of that, you’d just have some idiots fumbling about in the dark and mistaking ordinary phenomena for dead people’s “spirits.”
So, I’m going to start posting in the comments, because I’m sure your email box is always full…
Down here in Florida, we’re under the same budget crunch everyone else is – and it looks like it’s going to hit the University of Florida Geology department hard. We’re facing the demolition of the whole darn department – apparently the-powers-that-be don’t appreciate us properly – and we need some support!
Brandon over at Florida Citizens for Science has put up a nice summary ( http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=964 ) of the situation – explains what it is the college is trying to do, why it’s such a terrible idea, and how we can help. PZ, can you lend a hand getting the word out?
Adam @#12 “If you subtracted all of that, you’d just have some idiots fumbling about in the dark and mistaking ordinary phenomena for dead people’s “spirits.””
That’s exactly what it is! lol It’s several hours of just sitting there and saying “did you hear something?” “I dunno, it depends, did you?” and the less inhibited trying to talk to the spirits for EVPs (I just cannot get into that lol), or “what was that?” when a cat knocks over a box.
Thanks for the plug, PZ! This is quite possibly the greatest thing that’s ever happened to me.
Charlie Wagner, Dungeon resident (see masthead for residents and crimes). Who is presently morphing as Marshall Nelson to avoid the SciBlog security.
I don’t know about ghosts, but angels definitely exist.
I counted at least three last night – Kara Thrace, Dr. Gaius Baltar, and Number Six and they were really frackin’ here on Earth.
This is very true. The warm, spring weather has brought them out round by where I live. I’m always terrified they’ll catch in my hair so I put Angel paper in all the rooms. Some mornings there are up to 50 of the sancimonious bastards stuck to them.
I blame the nearby cemetary.
#15
Has it ever occurred to you that what you regard as ghosts are in fact utterly ordinary phenomena? And that what you detect in “haunted” houses is what you’d detect in non-haunted houses (i.e. noise, background radiation, credulous people)?
I saw a real angel this afternoon.
We’re looking to move house, & I pulled up outside the church in the village. I spotted a sign on the church, referring to a Saxon statue of an angel, that had been moved into the church. So we went in to have a look, & I’m pretty darn sure it really was a genuine Saxon angel, about a thousand years old at least.
I guess you can excuse the Saxons for believing in crap like that. I won’t say what I think of anyone who believes in that kind of stupidity now.
Unless you are like a few feet away from a working microwave oven with its door open, or shot with a gamma ray gun, or getting tanned out in the sun, I’m pretty sure you can’t feel the EMF (which by the way most people who believe in that mean radio waves and WiFi).
You really need to just know a bit about how photography (and particularly, just a rough understanding on how lenses are designed), to be able to call bullshit to like 95% of the ghost “pictures”. And that’s just the non-fake ones. I mean, go to any photography forums, and look up “flare” and you’ll come up with thousands of ghosts right there.
The relatively new Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 even had a quirk early on in its production run that was dubbed the “heavenly flare”. It was fixed by Canon later when it was discovered and replicated many times. Hey, maybe Canon are the REAL Real Ghostbusters.
The reason skeptics never find ghosts is the same reason they never find real faith healers. Their skepticism drives away genuine spiritual phenomena so they never find anything. Only true believers are going to find stuff like this. Damn skeptics chasing away those poor ghosts!
Probably has, yeah. Has it ever occurred to you to read someone’s blog, rather than just their blog’s title, before you criticize?
I know ghosts (probably) don’t truly exist, but I still love reading ‘true’ ghost stories. Not entirely sure why.
Well then we are more powerful than those supernatural weaklings than we thought. Anyone done a voodoo curse on you? Easy fix, hang around a skeptic!
#24: Thanks. Yeah, the blog’s title was chosen specifically to attract ghost-believers, and then smack them upside the head with a dose of skepticism.
Well, I’ve seen two ghosts in my life – both when I was a child. The first was the ghost of my mother, coming into my room at night – I had just woken from a bad dream, while she was asleep in bed in my parents’ room at the time. Inexplicable, no? The other was the ghost of a bookcase – getting up to go to the loo, I passed it on the landing, and saw it as clear as day. On my return trip, it had vanished. The extraordinary thing is, there really had been a bookcase there until not long before! Now don’t tell me that’s not spooky!
#24
I stand corrected. I was too eager to find an opponent on the subject.
Has anyone ever come up with any kind of explanation for why it is that having a non-believer around would prevent things like ghosts appearing?
I mean, why would a ghost, if it existed, give a crap about who believes in it or not?
Sounds vaguely familiar
#21 the emitter would be only a few feet away (I saw something attached to the underside of the stairway that ran electrical line in a place supposedly without electricity, a friend familiar with emitters said what I described could be one) and emit a high enough dose of the waves, which are also emitted from unshielded electrical equipment and is what many ghosthunters mistake for “activity” (they use EMF detectors to “sweep” an area). EMF bleed from electrical equipment has been associated with headaches, nausea (
http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/index1.html) and “presence sensing”. It’s just one explanation for “strange things” that seem unexplainable
Tentacle porn.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=327_1222010828
Enjoy.
When I was a little girl, I have a distinct memory of getting up to go to the bathroom late at night in my grandmother’s house, and seeing my cat sitting on the hamper outside the bathroom, in a sort of shadowy area the lights didn’t reach. it obviously wasn’t a ghost story, since my cat was both alive and several hundred miles away. Astral projection?
Later, when I was old enough to know something about how the brain worked, I remembered that cat was a tortoiseshell — black with small red patches. What probably happened is that my brain picked up a similar texture from the pattern of light and shadow, and filled in the details using a familiar sight, since I had only taken a glance at that on my way to the bathroom. The only reason I thought it was worth remark and memory was that it was completely wrong for the location I was in.
Dr P, #32
Read that link again. There’s no evidence for that, even evidence that contradicts it. The people who “associated” it are the “media” scaremongers.
The thing in your case could have triggered the instruments, but your senses were probably already messed with by the whole mood of the situation. Pretty much the same reason why we get scared with good horror movies (not the disgusting mutilation porn that passes off for one these days).
Ah yes, the skeptics and the ghosts. It reminds me of the movie Eric the Viking. The Christian missionary and the pagans not being able to see each others magic just cracked me up.
Ahh. But there is a secular way to define the word “ghost.”
the epitaph on Ben Franklin’s grave reads…
“The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer (like the cover of an old book, its contents worn out, and stript of its lettering and gilding) lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not lost, for it will, as he believed, appear once more In a new and more beautiful edition, corrected and amended by its Author.”
This was written by a dead man and yet still the message stirs in my mind and yours as you read this. Does this not define a secular ghost?
I think Doris Kearns Goodwin put it best when summarizing Abe Lincoln’s view of the afterlife. “If you accomplish something worthy in life you can live on in the memories of others”
you can see this quote in full context at 2:48 seconds into the video attached to this Post on Tom Paine’s Ghost.
http://www.tompainesghost.com/2009/02/darwinlincoln-coincidence.html
I do believe that all of the nonsensical supernatural explanation of the world can disappear if people would just realize this point. The only afterlife you have any hope of is in the minds of the people you encounter while you are alive.
AndyO, I’m not arguing with you. They use EMF sweeps because they think it shows something. People have reported physical symptoms (that’s what the link was for, and yes they are in question, though a possible explanation for the “hauntings” if real), I didn’t say I had any, and I already mentioned the psychology of it. It’s the electrical equipment I’m saying something messed with, and an emitter is one explanation a friend and I came up with.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I know I was kind of running off on a tangent to my main point a bit.
I thought you said the possible EMF emitter was what could have thrown your senses. My mistake then.
Posted by: LordJiro @ 25 “I know ghosts (probably) don’t truly exist, but I still love reading ‘true’ ghost stories. Not entirely sure why.”
‘Cause they’re great stories. A good story well told is to be valued even if it is full of wooooooos. Just remember to turn your bullshit monitor back on when you’ve finished and remember it’s all fantasy, not real.
For more of the reasons that John Funk goes ghost-hunting, listen to his special Halloween interview at Atheists Talk.
The following is a blog post I wrote on 10/21/07 (hope it’s not too long PZ, you can delete it if you wish):
So I found on Craigs List that the Minnesota Ghost Hunters Society is doing a gig to help benefit the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation where a business that feels they may be haunted will have them apply to be investigated by MNGHSC and also four volunteers can apply to help with the investigation.
Being a fan of science and understanding half-ass proper testing methods and the necessity of using controls to rule out other possibilities, I e-mailed them and said I was interested in being a volunteer (you know, ’cause I’m a humanitarian like that) and stated I have a good understanding of science and would be fit to be an investigator with them.
They then replied with the following:
“We don’t typically do controlled investigations in which we attempt to create the paranormal occurrences. This may be something you’ll need to start your own team with. On our investigations we do not attempt to create paranormal phenomenon. IF we believe that something is either man-made OR if we believe it’s being made by something normal then we attempt to recreate the noises/sounds what-have-you. However, we do not do what you described. As far as determining fraud based on findings in a controlled environment, it’ll be kind of difficult as most of these investigations aren’t controlled and may not have the same variables you’re placing in an experiment. But I do wish you the best of luck in either finding a team interested in this idea OR in building your own team in order to do this. Perhaps, if you do start your own team, you’ll let me know your findings? Thanks! Good luck.”
Well, I guess it is okay to just have fun playing make believe. It’s a good thing they don’t state on their webpage that they are a team of professionals who do this strictly for the purpose of science and research in paranormal phenomenon like all other ghost hunting groups do.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!? They fucking do?!? Fucking christ! On their webpage in the About Us tab and under Our Services they state, “Our team leads are professionals who do this strictly for the purpose of science and research in paranormal phenomenon.”
Ghost hunters do not like scrutiny because they cannot hold their own. They want the glamour of appearing to be scientific when they actually are not. They show up with scientific equipment (non-of-which has been shown to prove anything with the paranormal), they seem to know what they are talking about (to the lesser-trained ear), and manipulate/misinterpret data to those whom in which are fascinated with the fantastical; this is why it is so popular.
It has also been popular, especially since the show Ghost Hunters came out, to appear skeptical and to “try” to debunk a haunting. These are not people who have a firm grasp on the scientific method, and if they do, they completely ignore it/modify it to acheive the results they need. I’m not saying you need a PhD. to do a scientific study, fuck, I don’t even have my Bachelor’s yet and by bringing up “control” I scared them off and am not elegible to be a volunteer.
It appears that if I really want to get in there I have to appear credulous and seriously believe in ghosts undercover. It’s sad it has to come to this. I thought it would be nice to be able to be honest and venture along and correct methodological errors for these people in an educational, civil manner. Now I’ll just be a phoney and expose them instead. Fuck ’em!
#42
I hate when the ghost folks assert spirits as a cause for X occurrence, then throw the burden on skeptics to debunk their assertion. As far as I know, spirits don’t exist in the first place and aren’t a valid explanation for anything…
Yeah TAA, they are annoying as all hell. First off, they are going on the assumption that ghosts exist. Next, they are going off the assumption that their EMF detectors are made for tracking ghosts. And tons of other things that annoy the hell out of me.
I have a feeling, at least with this group I tried to get with (but I suspect many others), much like christians (lack of caps intentional), when they sense a threat to their belief system they have to shut it out because deep down they know (or at least sense the possibility) that they are wrong and they cannot cope with that threat so it is shunned.
If you want to make people “sense” ghosts in your Haunted House you need infrasound, not EMF.
Knockout @28:
Why would you think we would believe you? There is absolutely no reason for a bookcase to go to the loo!
Um, Ray Comfort’s books?
As someone who works as a communications officer, my first question when it comes to using EMF to find ghosts is “are you crazy?”. All EM emissions require a source, if ghosts exist, just where do they find the energy to create these EM emissions? A second point is that we use such a large swath of the EM spectrum for communications that you would think they’d interfere with some of it.
Save for the infrared, or visible light portions, almost all of the known spectrum is already in use, so just where are these ghosts hiding?
Yeah Snowbird, of all the things ghost hunters do that annoys the shit out of me, the EMF detectors top the list. They have absolutely no way of knowing what they are picking up. If they would throw away their EMF detectors I’d take them much more seriously (which still isn’t much).
Now there’s an internet presence that seems entirely benign. You could let your kids access it and all.
Sweet.
No ghosts? I have never been this shocked and stunned in my life.
#51
Ghosties? Ghost exponents? Individuals who believe in ghosts?
I was trying to aim for something mildly contemptuous, but apparently it came off as sweet. Oh well.
No, it is though, I mean they belive in ghosties…awwwwww.
And I don’t think they’re associated with terrorists.
Though perhaps the Muslim Ghost Folk are more sinister.
Damn.
And…”The Ghost Folk” is a great name for a band!
Every time I come across one of these ghost shows on TV accidentally,I cant but think “Is this the friggin middle ages or something? ”
You cna only hope that not too many kids watch this stuff.
AnthonyK @ #54 said:
Find a suitable synonym for “Grateful” and you’d have a wonderful moniker for a cover band.
Beholden, gratified, indebted, obliged, pleased, thankful come to mind.
“If you accomplish something worthy in life you can live on in the memories of others” – Kris quoting Doris Kearns Goodwin [who she?]
Maybe, but in the words of Woody Allen:
“I don’t want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen – I want to live on in my apartment!”, and
“I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work… I want to achieve it through not dying.”
Isn’t it obvious? The bookcase had been out drinking with the wardrobe…
It’s just one explanation for “strange things” that seem unexplainable
Another one is infrasound.
Go look up (I kid you not, the guy’s real name) Vic Tandy, an engineer who experienced an almost classic “haunting” and discovered some really interesting effects produced by certain frequencies of infrasound.
Sometimes it isn’t the experience that’s in question, it’s the interpretation.
Bone Oboe: How about The Appreciative Ghost Folks?
I don’t know about you, but I prefer my furniture to be housebroken.
Interesting new development in this story: I’ve been contacted by Dave Schrader, host of Darkness on the Edge of Town and one of the guides at the event!
http://ghostsofminnesota.blogspot.com/2009/03/email-from-edge-of-town.html
This story is certainly making the round in both the skeptical and paranormal blogospheres. I really didn’t see that coming.
I do not believe in ghosts or an afterlife. Yet, I have lived in two houses where wierd shit would happen. One was a big old mansion for student housing. You could hear the steps creaking half the night like someone was walking up and down them. If you looked out of your room, no one was ever there. There was a room at the top of the house where no one would stay more than a week. They would freak out and say they felt a “presence.” Until a guy moved in who was such a slob I guess the presence moved out. In the other, I would wake up occasionally to find my bed moving like someone was having sex, and I wasn’t the only one in the house to report this either. I never felt afraid in the slightest, but have no clue what was going on. I see why people attribute the weird stuff in their homes to ghosts, even if it cannot be proven because it simply isn’t true.
[56], how about Beholden Ghost Folk? It has the advantage of double meanings, seen or indebted, plus ghosts or ghost hunters.
That reminds me of St. Patrick: I read once that he was called Succat, which could mean either Happy Cat or Good Warrior.
Don’t know why Ghosts of Minnesota has such a hard time finding ghosts. I have experienced these things since I was kid. It can be annoying sometimes like when you’re trying to get some sleep and they keep trying to communicate. I have to avoid the ghost hunter shows because it just makes it worse. Maybe there is a gene that effects how your senses work in this area. Could there be a six sense gene? A lot of my family members have the same ability.
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