If you’ve got a few hours (he does go on), read Orac’s contribution to the Offit book club discussion. It’s lots of fun: it’s got the anti-vaxing squirrels chittering insanely. If you don’t have the time to read the whole post, just browse the comments for the laughs!
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Orac: “I’m concerned that you’re concerned.”
That’s new favorite reply to concern trolls (which seem to have multiplied in recent weeks).
The people who is fighting vaccination are not just a bunch of lunatics, but also criminals. Without vaccines as we all know entire populations would have been wipe out of earth, not just in the developed world but also here in the third world. Vaccines are a gift from science that we’ll be thankful forever!
I made Orac a reply about vaccinations.
I’m totally pro vaccinations. My grand parents siblings died of Small Pox. My grandfathers told me in grafic detail about Small Pox and it’s horrors. Polio isn’t gone folks.
I had chicken pox, mumps, measles – shit people, get a clue. Somebody on another thread said measles are nothing. Are you fucking kidding!?
Its compulsory here to have your vaccs to attend school except on a few very narrow grounds. One of the loopholes that the nutters use to not vaccinate is on “religious grounds”. I’m fucked if I can find a religion that actually has in its doctrine a clause regarding not having vaccinations (admittedly though I’m not going on an extensive search trip here- my head would asplode if I google religion and anti-vaccine at the same time).
Anyone out there know what “religion” it is that these losers are claiming to be a member of so they can continue to spread their nasty cooties?
My mother had whooping cough as a young child. Whilst her parents were fine with vacination they lived in a small outback town with no doctor and were due to drive the kids into the city ( 8 hour drive) to get their vaccs about a week after my mother caught it. To this day she only has one functioning lung and, living with that woman hacking up nasty stuff every day of my life and seeing her have to use respirators etc to breath when she gets even the most minor of coughs or colds breaks my heart.
People who don’t vaccinate are cruel heartless bastards.
There’s probably an extensive case file listing on whatstheharm.net
Screw pro-vacc/anti-vacc debates, I wanna hear more about this WOW Gold!!!!!
Off-topic, but:
http://elections.foxnews.com/ – Anyone wanna crash the poll here?
Crash the Poll? It already has 145,000 vote! (Biden 61%).
#10:
Oh yeah, so it does. Must be the work of
AnonymouseBaumsworld.:)
Related to this, I linked several weeks ago on Orac’s blog to a report from the EU vaccination program that discussed groups there who weren’t vaccinating. I have to get ready for work now, but I’ll try to find it later this morning.
Does anyone find it ironic that the anti-vaccination head-bangers have probably had theirs?
It could be just about any common religion, since those tend to include the idea that diseases are sent by god and are hence god’s deliberate inflicted punishment or a failure of faith to persuade god (via prayer) to remove the affliction. Although the non-monotheistic religions do allow for official good and bad gods and hence for the possibility that one should oppose the actions of bad gods (rather than having just one god who is bad but mislabelled as good). However, it would be extremely rare honesty on the part of religious people to be rejecting vaccination on those grounds and, to be consistent (an even rarer thing among the religious!), they would also have to reject all other medical treatments as being interference in god’s wishes.
For reasons of inattention I had assumed that the whole “MMR vaccine causes autism” nonsense was purely a matter of British stupidity.
I’m rather dismayed to find that Americans have also been involved in this particular lunacy.
Bride of Shrek OM #5 wrote:
There’s no specific religion — remember, atheist Bill Maher, whose movie Religulous comes out today, is also anti-vax, and apparently denies the germ theory of disease.
Instead, I think this is fueled by a variety of factors, a lot of them closely associated with or connected to a religious way of thinking, which ends up being anti-science.
First, there’s the idea that authorities (or “earthly authorities”) can’t be trusted — either because they’re out to get you, or because “expertise” not only isn’t any better than common sense, but it often makes a person lose their common sense. Any group of people which thinks it knows more than you is suspect. This is especially true if they’re going against truths which you “know” through your own experience, or by following your heart — like finding God, or understanding how it feels to be a parent.
It’s the basis of conspiracy thinking. You’ll also distrust what “they” are telling you if you’ve framed your life as a story of the brave maverick who’s not afraid to buck the system, make up their own mind, and stick loyally to their “side.” The conspiracy thinker loves the idea that just a handful of rebels recognize what’s really going on. They’re more humble — and therefore more open — than the smarty-pants, cold, heartless authorities.
A lot of religions put their believers into this role: spiritual loners going against the devil, and his wicked, atheistic, corrupted world. Your job here on earth is to reject the world, in favor of God’s way. This isn’t going to predispose you to be objective on evidence. It makes perfect sense that thousands and even millions of scientists would be lying, since Satan sets his traps so sweepingly and cleverly. The world is, literally, out to get you.
And, on the liberal side, there’s the belief that Nature is loving and benevolent, and all our problems come from losing touch with this deep and simple connection, and changing things artificially. Add a knee-jerk dislike of anything that smacks of governmental mandate, and I think you’ve got a fertile field which will support the growth of anti-science sentiment, manifested in the form of rejecting majority consensus, and embracing Brave Maverick scientists on the fringe.
Like creationists, anti-vaxers don’t think they’re anti-science. They think they’re the only ones who know what science really says, but it’s being repressed.
Pick at them long enough, though, and they’ll eventually start in with the “other ways of knowing” crap. They’re just borrowing science and its terms to support what they’ve already concluded for other reasons.
Not too far from where I live, there’s a small group of religious wackaloons that are refusing vaccinations. There’s been a recent outbreak of mumps in the Frasier Valley (in British Columbia, Canada) as a result.
This was recently covered on “The Atheist Experience” too.
From the article at http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d52a2724-d5f1-489e-beb1-53f163155dc4:
This is pretty much the only good arguement I’ve ever seen against a public health system.
As a sceptical Brit I would defend, just a bit, against the charge of ‘British Stupidity’! Only a bit though.
It was really a media issue. The original (unpublished) MMR work was blown up by all sections of the UK media – ‘quality’ as well as tabloid papers and was therefore taken up by not just the ‘great unwashed masses’ but also by the wealthier opinion formers. This was emphasised by Tony Blair and his wife not commenting on whether their new kid had received an MMR vaccination. Obviously this is sort of private but given the circumstances of the time there were grounds for them, as political leaders, revealing something personal like that. Their refusal to comment added to the scare – but years later memoirs show the kid was vaccinated! The MMR scare link to autism seems to be dying down to a degree here – certainly the media now see to be onside but it will take a while to repair the public damage.
The lesson? Easier said than done I’m afraid – don’t let your media get away with criminal nonsense like this that can cause real harm, when it first appears. Hammer the journalists, ‘celebrities’ and media sources mercilessly!
Greetings, fellow atheists.
I was compelled to comment on this since I do not belong to either of the hard-core vaccination camps. I have personally been vaccinated (by the 1970s standards) and vaccinate my child as well – although I am doing it selectively and only after doing research on each vaccine and in particular – brands of vaccines, which often vary greatly in the amount and type of additives.
I wholeheartedly agree that “anti-vaccination clowns” are completely out of line if their position is based on their personal religious beliefs or superstition. Even more so – as evident from the previous paragraph – I am not against vaccines in general – I just question the safety of additives (formaldehyde, aluminum, and in very recent past – mercury) and the necessity of every single vaccine developed by the pharmaceutical companies.
I understand that anti-vaccination claims often have negative consequences -potentially creating distrust in doctor-patient relationship, but I think the root of this problem lies in the oxymoronic nature of capitalist medicine to begin with.
The distrust towards a capitalist doctor (and pharmaceutical companies, and FDA whose research is sponsored by pharmaceutical companies) is not illogical and it is this notion that often lies at the root of the anti-medicine claims in general and anti-vaccination claims in particular.
Do I really know that ALL vaccinations are good for me and my children? No. Is it possible the pharmaceutical companies care more about their profits than about the long-term health impact of their products? Yes. Is it possible the FDA closes its eyes on many potentially hazardous chemicals being pumped into my body, because FDA thrives on the research funds provided to them by the big-pharma, and some FDA officials are planning on joining a very particular part of the private sector within the next few years? It is possible,
Please note – I am not a conspiracy theorist, and do not think that pharmaceutical companies are after me. However – the pharmaceutical companies are capitalist businesses and according to the US constitution it is illegal for them to compromise the profits of their shareholders. If they were to develop a vaccine, that had more negative impact then positive – they could still try to sell, and lobby the government to include into vaccination guidelines, and I wouldn’t be surprised for a second if they tried to cover up research compromising their products.
Capitalist doctors, and capitalist pharmaceutical companies, have produced some amazing results, and all of us owe our lives to them in many ways. And yet in the long run – profitable medicine is like having a wolf as shepherd. If I were to look at this with science-fiction attitude – pharmaceutical companies are unique in the capitalist world because they are one of the few industries that can actually make their customers. Ideal customer for a pharmaceutical company is a person that is always sick (or diagnosed as such) and is always on drugs. Are they working on making us sicker? Probably not. But without “nut jobs” to scrutinize their every move it is possible they would. In fact it is possible they do despite all the scrutiny. It is possible.
The way I see it – existence of “anti-vaccination clowns” is a blessing. Whether their claims are proven or disproved in the end is another question. But if they were not there to question FDA and Big-Pharma to begin with, I would have probably never had an option of learning the truth – pumping often questionable chemicals into my child’s bloodstream, unless the negative effects were so blatantly obvious that pharmaceutical companies were simply not able to cover them up.
Just because FDA or EPA scientists rule something as “safe” does not necessarily mean that it is. Asbestos was not banned until 1989, and prior to that there had been plenty of “research” heavily funded by the industry to justify its continuous use. You (atheists), of all people, should know that science rarely (if ever) operates in absolute terms. So sure – make fun of particular research, criticize the fools who create panic when there are no grounds for it, but be thankful for the skeptics who question FDA and Pharmaceutical companies. Unlike many scientists, the skeptics rarely benefit from their skepticism – they do not have multi-billion dollar corporations behind them, and they are not trying to sell you anything (there are exceptions of course.)
Please understand – I am not saying that we should believe an uneducated conspiracy theorist over a well educated scientist. But we SHOULD always question the scientist nonetheless, and we should carefully examine his/her funding sources, previous and future employments and other conflicts of interest and not take any research for granted. And that includes the research of vaccines and vaccine additives.
P.S.
I am sure I will be ridiculed by many of you. Many of you are probably more intelligent or better educated than me and at the very least enjoy the benefit of English as your native language, which means that I hardly have a chance of winning an argument in such circumstances. But I welcome your comments anyway.
Irony meter go BOOM
Bill is denying that he is an Atheist (The View Interview). I assume he is at least an agnostic semantically … and an opportunist. He doesn’t want to alienate the believers & lose money at the box office.
“Irony meter go BOOM”
So questioning the ethics of a capitalist business makes me a conspiracy theorist? Hey, I got another conspiracy theory – McDonalds food is bad for you and McDonalds is lying when they try to present their food as a safe and healthy food choice for children. Gosh, I’m such a freak to think that.
Do Americans realise there is a whole fucking world outside the borders? One where there is universal healthcare and there are numerous independent boards that all certify it safe. Blaming the large corporations these days is laughable because of the isolated regulation in multiple areas of the globe. If the French didn’t do what is best for their citizens, there would be an uproar (those cheese-eating surrender monkeys riot over anything). This is the same in the other 36 countries that are ahead of the US in healthcare standards.
Some of you Yanks need to pull your heads out of your fucking arses, I swear. Everything suddenly becomes a black & white issue where the wildest allegations of subversive behaviour propagate through a distrustful population willing to put their faith in anything. The world doesn’t revolve around you!
It’s not a capitalist business elsewhere in the world ‘tard. Look outside the borders and see how other health-care system works before dismissing it all based on one failed system.
There is a difference between skepticism and paranoia. I can be skeptical of claims by big pharma, but when the vaccines cut down on disease, I can applaud them for their effort. The skepticism becomes paranoia when you presume that you are lied to even with evidence to the contrary. The anti-vaxers are paranoid.
“Irony meter go BOOM”
Here is a historical note on asbestos:
“In 1951, asbestos companies removed all references to cancer before allowing publication of research they sponsored. In 1952, Dr. Kenneth Smith, Johns-Manville medical director, recommended (unsuccessfully) that warning labels be attached to products containing asbestos. Later, Smith testified: “It was a business decision as far as I could understand . . . the corporation is in business to provide jobs for people and make money for stockholders and they had to take into consideration the effects of everything they did and if the application of a caution label identifying a product as hazardous would cut into sales, there would be serious financial implications.””
It is from Wiki Asbestos article. I am well aware that Wiki is not a 100% reliable source, but this is a blog discussion – not a scientific argument. If you disagree with the acuracy of the statement – let me know and I’ll dig up the actual document they claim to be quoting – Barry I. Castleman, Asbestos: Medical and Legal Aspects, 4th edition, Aspen Law and Business
Yes, mistakes were made in the past. While they are sure to happen again, these days we have a far better regulatory system.
Comparing Asbestos to medicine though is a strawman argument. There’s still no evidence to support that vaccinations are bad, you are just using an example of negligence in the past to allege negligence now. It’s like creationists using Piltdown Man to argue against evidence for evolution.
I am not claiming expertise in every single healthcare system in the world, however I am familiar with Russian (socialized) medicine system. An American (or Western European) and very much capitalist pharmaceutical company wants to sell vaccine to the Russians. They can very easily lobby (bribe) the government into making the vaccine mandatory and sell it to the government who then makes it available to the population. There are lots of mechanism to do it really. Are all these vaccines bad? Certainly not. But conflict of interest is nonetheless there – which is exactly my point.
Yes there is lobbying there, but the kind of action you are talking about is major worldwide corruption. It’s still not enough to justify your stance, you are alleging conspiracy and masquerading it under the guise of anti-capitalism.
Basically you are alleging:
* all governing bodies around the world are in the pockets of the medical corporations
* all evidence that shows a link is being suppressed by this drive for money
* doctors, medical researchers are all in on it too
Basically for what you are alleging to be true, there would have to be a worldwide conspiracy in order to keep the profits of a few american corporations flowing. I’m not denying that corruption is there, of course it is. No-one here would deny it’s got problems. But the level you are talking about is pragmatically impossible, it completely negates the independent checks and balances systems of 40 odd countries around the world and insists that all medical researches in those countries are all covering up the evidence too.
And even if that level is possible, you still have nothing more than hearsay and conjecture that any of the additives actually cause problems. As with everything science: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE
Sniff, sniff. I thwat I shmelled a paranoid.
Since in 1992 Congress authorized the FDA to receive funding directly from the drug manufacturers, I sincerely question your proposition that we have a far better regulatory system than we did in the past.
I am not here to argue that vaccinations are bad (certainly not all of them). My point is that skepticism towards the safety of vaccinations and vaccination additives is reasonable, and that there are historical grounds for skepticism and scrutiny. The fact that scientific research is often tainted by conflict of interest does not make it false, but it does raise some question marks that should not be laughed off.
Yes that’s a perfect analogy to the Vaccination issue…
All of these are naturally occuring substances which are impossible to avoid. Every single person in the world has these substances in their bloodstream. Especially formaldehyde, which is a natural metabolic byproduct. Fear of the miniscule quantities used in vaccines is indeed paranoia, not reasonable concern.
Again, there’s a whole world outside.
Of course there should be a healthy scepticism, but it should be maintained in the academic arena. The problem with modern society: the influx of information makes people think they know better than experts. Now I’m not saying you are doing this, but just think about all those people who will carry on the “bad vaccination additives” meme, there’s a good chance that they don’t know the difference between good and bad information, between conjecture and empirical work. Now those are the ones who will not get their kids vaccinated, and those are the ones who will pass on anecdotally the dangers of the additives without a single bit of scientific evidence.
Scepticism is good, and it’s always good to maintain a healthy scepticism. But you need to be sceptical of the scepticism too, look at your own ideas for their improbability. This is what the 911truthers do wrong, they look at 9/11 as an inside job despite the logistical improbabilities of such an occurrence. It’s important to analyse what you are alleging, especially in the absence of evidence. This is why science puts such a strong focus on evidence, it’s the facts we can base a worldview around. It seems all you have is a view of the corruption of capitalism; and I hear you on that. What I’m disagreeing with that the anti-capitalist tirade is enough to question the research of thousands worldwide and the integrity of thousands of medical professionals who administer the drugs. There are so many independent boards that decide on what course of action is best for their respective reason; even if all were corrupt to the level you say they are, you still don’t have any evidence the additives are bad.
Please apply scepticism to your own ideas, they are borderline conspiracy theory.
It’s just a twist on a common fallacy. The appeal to Science was wrong before.
Of course, I am pro-vaccination, and when my son was growing up, he had all of them – except one. In 1969 the statistical occurrence of adverse reactions to the small pox vaccine in the US was so much greater than the incidence of small pox in the entire world, that many school districts, including the one my son attended, had dropped the requirement for that one vaccine, and I declined to have him vaccinated, for that reason. As yet, I have not felt the need to second-guess myself, and feel I did the right thing. But the anti vax throng are a still a bunch of nutters.
Ok,I have commented on this before.
In my experience,which is with the unvaccinated people I come across at work as an Emergency Physician,there are 2 categories of people that dont vaccinate their kids :
1) are the homeopathy/witchcraft/alternative medicine/chemistry is bad for you people
2) are the religiously deluded,any denomination,but mainly fringe cults
The autism from vacc people can be a subset of any of the above.
In my experience,all these people exhibit features of Creationist brainwashedness and resistance to reason,and are not usually swayed from their standpoints.You get the odd 19yo that still lives at home but can make their own decision who you can sway to have that tetanus vaccine,but in general its a futile exercise.
Not to be a pot stirrer, but is Maxim Eremine’s name a little too close to Max Verret’s for anyone else to take him seriously?
Ermine, Ferret? Originally SilverFox?
Just to pick a nit:
Not really. They likely had them as children and would probably tell you that if they had the choice, given what they “know” now, they wouldn’t have gotten them.
Not that I support anti-vaxxers in any way shape or form, it’s just that there’s enough wrong with their claims that we don’t have resort to misrepresenting them.
I saw it mentioned that in this world of information we live in that everyone thinks they know it all and that we should trust the experts. But in this world of information there is also a world of experts. Not all experts agree with each other and the same group of experts will change their stance from year to year.
Which experts are we to trust? WHEN are we to trust any particular group of experts? It’s especially difficult when it comes to medical or dietary experts. The scientific health fad of today is the early death of tomorrow. With all the reports of crooked studies and double dipping in the review process, HOW can we blindly trust the EXPERTS?
I think the world of information is a good thing and gives people the tools they need to decide for them selves what is best and not blindly trust experts. I don’t even think we should blindly trust our personal doctors – and the “ethical” bill going up before the house is a definite clue that we shouldn’t.
Now, I agree that people like this who are claiming to be experts based on suppositions are dangerous. It is misleading and damaging to most people who, honestly, are unwilling to do the proper research to be actually educated in a topic – much like religion. Now, calling attention to a fear or a belief is crucial in this culture and to science. Once the “fear” has been expressed it can be studied to determine if there is any feasibility to it.
Sadly, I can also see how people WON’T have trust in the studies. The FDA seems to be more and more in the pocket of big business and LESS about actually protecting the people from harm CAUSED by big business. There is a conflict of interest there that can only be overcome by a complete revamping of the FDA and REMOVING its ties from business completely. Then people may have a little more trust in the FDA studies and reccomendations.
Perhaps they are one and the same, but I doubt it. Maxim actually writes a coherent, even if paranoid, sentence. So far, no mention of god. Verret is just a wanking godbot.
Nah. It makes it sound like I care.
Maxim Eremine #30 wrote:
I have not read it, but I believe the point of Offit’s book (and the point in general) is that you are absolutely right here. Skepticism, scrutiny, and caution towards conflicts of interest in medical research and public recommendations are crucial to the proper pursuit of science, and legitimate questions should never be laughed off. They should be carefully considered. Offit’s right there with you.
But apparently this was done. And it made no difference. That’s what the book is about.
Continuing to advance and support the general principles of cautious skepticism as if that’s the real point of contention here isn’t I think going to be helpful or persuasive.
stupid blockquote tag typo
Found it – it’s about measles specifically:
[Elsewhere they also mention Roma communities.]
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=18838
Aye. I much prefer this old standby: “Your concern is noted and stupid.”
It’s a variation on the “they aren’t looking hard enough” argument common among bigfoot proponents: They haven’t found bigfoot yet because they aren’t looking hard enough. The evidence that they aren’t looking hard enough is that they haven’t found it yet. No matter how hard we look, it isn’t enough because we haven’t found it. Not once do they consider the possibility that there isn’t anything to find.
Anti-vaxxers are the same way. No amount of research will satisfy them until they find a link between vaccinations and autism. The possibility that there isn’t a link is not one they have even remotely considered.
@43 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM
You are absolutely right. To back it up I’d need to go home and dig up the some of my books for the references.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all FOR vaccinations: shoot me up and keep the cooties away. I’d sooner believe the cause for autism is “Nerve Attenuation Syndrome” than I would it is the small amount of mercury in vaccinations. The use of heavy medals in traditional Ayurvedic medicine (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/ayur.html ) would lead one to think there were an increased risk for autism in India and a quick glance googling autism rates puts the US at about 3 times the rate of India.
With the absence of any references for FDA duplicity, even the appearance or perception of duplicity can be enough to push people over the edge of distrust. Taking the recent recalls of various medicines I don’t find it hard to understand.
I did a quick search:
Old ones:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12483353/
http://www.forbes.com/2005/02/24/cx_mh_0224fda.html
Fairly recent:
http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/fda-tightens-conflict-interest-rules-advisers/2008-08-05
Official FDA on offering waivers:
http://www.fda.gov/oc/guidance/advisorycommittee.html
One of the sources is old and one may be circumspect, but the taint is still there. The fact that the FDA has an entire system to offer people waivers from their conflict of interests is disturbing to me. I can see why people are wary. I don’t AGREE with them, but I can see why they are wary.
Also, if people are concerned, I say let them raise the point and have it analyzed. I see it as a problem that these groups become dogmatic though and will refute all evidence against their claims no matter how sound.
Elvis
UFOs
Chupacabra
Underpants Gnomes
Denver Broncos Defense
Loch Ness Monster
Second Shooter in JFK’s assassination
Lizard Aliens species controlling the world
All things yet to be discovered because they aren’t looking hard enough for them
@43 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM
I responded but it is being held for approval.
Damn I’m long winded today.
re: #49:
Don’t forget the Mets’ bullpen. And Noah’s Ark.
Don’t forget the Mets’ bullpen. And Noah’s Ark.
huh?
Meant #48, not 49. Makes better sense that way.
Multiple links in a comment will sometimes cause that.
Okay, that’s not really fair. No one seriously believes in the existence of the Denver Broncos Defense.
Meant #48, not 49. Makes better sense that way.
It really DOES make more sense. Especially since I know nothing of baseball and the story of Noah’s Ark grosses me out.
Multiple links in a comment will sometimes cause that.
ahh, yes, that explains it. Figures on my first day on non-one-liners I get caught in a filter.
I basically said you were right and that I have no references except some quick googling (my books being at home). I also said that the percieved taint on the FDA is there which is enough for soem people to have doubts (myself included). My last point was that the people who hold these sorts of ideas tend to become dogmatic and even when real evidence comes there way they don’t believe it. Skepticism is healthy and good for the country; dogma is just a world of blind stupidity waiting to happen.
Right and that works both ways. I don’t just trust the “experts”. I trust that the system continues to work in a way that weeds out the bad and enforces/supports the good. Does the system fail? Yes but usually when it fails it is the experts/scientists who discover the failure and correct it.
All studies to this point show exactly no link between vaccines and autism. Yes there are groups out there distorting evidence to make this appear to be the case but they are continually exposed for the frauds they are.
@ 55 :
//Skepticism is healthy and good for the country; dogma is just a world of blind stupidity waiting to happen.//
That sounds good on the surface.
But you dont want to be a skeptic when your accountant goes through your tax deductions with you,or when the plumber explains to you whats wrong with the leaking pipe,or when the Doctor tells you that that chest pain youre been getting lately when running with the dog needs to be investigated,or,back to thread topic,that not vaccinating your kids might not only cause suffering for them,but to other kids as well who might catch it from yours.
And that is the prudent thing to do,there are people that know their field,and you dont,and being skeptic in an area you know not enough about might just get you dead or your kids suffering,or your house flooded,or your tax return fucked up.
Bride of Shrek OM:
First Church of I Want My Kids to Die.
I’d go further and say it was the complete opposite of ironic – being the entirely expected state of affairs. I’m from the largely pre-vaccination generation(s), when people knew about and personally suffered from (or had relative) the results of these terrible diseases. The younger generations were lucky enough to have the opportunity to be vaccinated and have parents who recognised what a great thing vaccination could be. Yet, as a more or less direct consequence of the very success of vaccinations, they themselves, being ungrateful scum who are happily ignorant and too lazy to check into the facts, are unable to see that the diseases are more damaging than the claims about vaccination issues even if those claims were true (which they aren’t)!
Perhaps if consent for vaccinations had to be made by grandparents, great-grandparents or anyone over the age of 50 or so (there being only a few younger ones who paid enough attention to the world to have noticed the pre-vaccination problems) …
… but then eventually (only another generation really) even those people with direct experience would all be dead too. So educating the current population better is essential if we’re not simply to say “stuff them” and leave the information somewhere safe for their disease-ridden spawn (who will variously be deaf, blind and brain-damaged if not dead) to rediscover and appreciate anew.
It is perfectly okay to be skeptical of what one accountant/plumber/doctor says and getting a second opinion. However, you don’t get that second opinion from someone who is not trained in the field. If I question what my accountant says about my tax return, I’m not going to ask my plumber. If I question what a doctor says about vaccinations, I’m not going to ask, say, a blonde Hollywood actress with no medical training.
Oops – I lost some letters there. I think “or had relative” was going to be “or had relatives etc suffering with”.
That makes it sound like the antivaxxers had ever discovered a single side effect of a single vaccine.
They haven’t.
Like all medical treatments, vaccinations have to pass lengthy, elaborate and expensive clinical trials that must be meticulously documented. It is very difficult to fake or suppress anything here. And then, approval is not a worldwide process; there’s one for the USA, one for the EU, and so on. You should learn more about that.
And “possible”… well, anything is possible that doesn’t contradict the laws of thermodynamics…
What is that?
No? Oh shit.
Excuse me. I need to call my plumber.
//If I question what my accountant says about my tax return, I’m not going to ask my plumber//
Ahem,the point of that nonsensical statement being what exactly??? I didnt say you should.
//If I question what a doctor says about vaccinations, I’m not going to ask, say, a blonde Hollywood actress with no medical training.//
Did anyone suggest you should? If a doctor tells you about vaccinations and you have more than 2 brain cells,you should not have to get a second opinion,frankly.If a doctor tells you your back is fucked and you’ll never work again,thats the time to get a second or third opinion.Not quite sure where Jenny McStupid fits in there.
Oh no! Don’t ask! They might hear you and we’ll be up to are elbows in Denver Broncos Defensists. You think the crackergate threads were long?
Dammit! “Our”
I must repeat the mantra: spell-check is not the same as proofreading, spell-check is not the same as proofreading, spell-check is not the same as proofreading …
And I have given away my position to someone who knows where people pronounce those two words the same way…
It is right to be sceptical about treatments like vaccinations, as other have said here, and particularly new variants. The question is how to make the right decision, especially as a non-specialist? I think one way is to see how a treatment is viewed internationally. If most technically advanced countries make the judgement that something is safe medically, given that it’s been through an assessment procedure loads of times by regulatory bodies with varying degrees of coziness to Big Pharma, then I would regard that as pretty solid expert advice.
Most common drugs and vaccinations seem to be in that category so I’m pretty relaxed about their safety for me and my family.
It is funny how different countries have different health scares that don’t worry others – in the UK, and maybe the US now, its the MMR vaccine and autism; in ’90’s France it was the hepatitis B vaccine (a cause of multiple sclerosis apparently!); in the US it’s the preservative thiomersal; in ’70’s Britain it was whopping cough vaccine causing brain damage; in Germany you get treated for LOW blood pressure! (Ref; the book ‘Bad Science’ – Ben Goldacre, 2008).
So I start worrying when a number of countries raise a hue and cry about such issues!
I was expanding on your point, not arguing with it.
That sounds like a great idea – coughs should certainly be whopped! ;-) Sneezes too. Perhaps it could be a first stage on the way to eliminating the common cold.
//in Germany you get treated for LOW blood pressure!//
Im not aware of that.I certainly never have.
//The question is how to make the right decision, especially as a non-specialist? I think one way is to see how a treatment is viewed internationally//
That is a good point.But probably only if you live in a country thats not the first to roll out a new drug.
There is a thing called the doctor-patient relationship,and that involves trust.My patients rely on me to give them good advice,and its my responsibility to be up to date and informed so I can give them the best advice.
I did not hesitate 1 second to vaccinate my son with the brandnew Rotavirus gastro vaccine,and I am recommending it to all of my patients with infants,based on the available clinical data.
Bottom line is,as a layperson you can be as skeptic as you like,you rely on the specialists to give you good advice.
@#56 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM
I think we may have more similar views here than it seems on the surface but are discussing it from different sides. Even the experts are working from “best available data”. Questioning the data isn’t bad, it leads to further study and refinement of the results: I have a belief in science. The system on the other hand…. I’m by nature a cynic, so, not so much belief there in the system. I agree these groups are distorting evidence and ignoring studies just to hold onto their position. The initial questioning is fine, the holding onto deluded concepts isn’t.
I guess I came across as defending this whack, which really wasn’t my intent. I need to pay more heed to my friend Alexa when writing these things and be more specific.
@#57 clinteas
If I have doubts about the service someone I’m paying is providing me – I will contract a DIFFERENT member OF THAT SERVICE for a second opinion. I’m going through that right now with a medical issue. I have a diagnosis that entails “in absence of all other data” this is what [I] have. The only way to be sure is exploratory surgery. Guess what – before anyone cuts me open I’m going to a different doctor for a second opinion.
Again, I think I came across as in-support of these whacks, which wasn’t my intent. The initial questioning is what I was defending, not the dangerous and potentially deadly holding onto these beliefs. I even thought a friend was a complete idiot for not vaccinating her dog against rabies because the medicine “might” make her dog sick for a few days. Not vaccinating your kids is just stupid.
——————
note to self –
never play devil’s advocate here
especially since there is no devil.
I agree with everything you say here. As I’ve said before – I am not against vaccination per se, and decided to vaccinate my child (with very few exceptions).
I even agree with the point that at the moment there is no scientific evidence that shows harm from vaccines.
But on a personal level I try to exercise some judgment based on the possibility that evidence to negative effects may be found in the future. Science has been wrong before (which is what my asbestos example was aimed at showing) and I try to avoid vaccines that were not yet time tested, despite of all scientific assurances to the contrary.
My post was not about my personal choices however. It was about laughing off any skepticism regarding the safety of vaccines as if there absolutely no chance in hell any single ingredient could be harmful. Concern of the public was the driving force behind removal of mercury from the vaccines despite lack of evidence that it was causing any harm, and I see it as a positive thing – if there is a chance that it might be harmful and simply wasn’t shown yet – why not take the side of caution and why not continue trying to find out if some ingredients could in fact be harmful.
Actually my last name means Jeremiah-son in Russian and has nothing to do with weasels.
I am an agnostic on a personal level and an atheist as far as society and politics are concerned. So yes – I am not a godbot.
I try to do my best to be skeptical about my ideas. I understand that I come out as a conspiracy theorist, however I am not an anti-vaccination “freak” and my whole tirade regarding capitalist medicine is just a personal political stand – I simply think that some industries would serve humanity better if they were not generating massive profits (e.g. be socialized rather than private) – that applies to medicine, pharmaceuticals, but not exclusively – weapons manufacture is another example. (I better stop now since this is a completely different topic.)
I am not masquerading anything. Some of my political beliefs are anti-capitalist. Conspiracy would involve a group of men sitting in some room deciding how to screw the world in some way. I don’t believe in such group of people, I simply believe that capitalist system itself (especially in the form it exists in the US) naturally creates results that may occasionally seem orchestrated, when in fact it’s just a bunch of people just like me and you trying to make a profit.
I am alleging:
– Most governments (every single one I am familiar with) are in the pockets of big business. Medical corporations are just some of these businesses. It does not mean there are no useful drugs or that every single government official bluntly disregards everything. It simply means that positive changes for ordinary people can occur ONLY if they happen to also generate some profit for the big businesses. Once again – it occurs naturally. No smoke-filled rooms with mustached Caucasian males.
– Evidence that shows negative impact of vaccines does not exist at this time. It may be found one day. Some of it may be suppressed. Some research of it may never be funded, while the research showing the opposite will always receive ample amount of funding. I also allege that such evidence may never be found simply because it does not exist – but it does not mean we should stop looking.
– Doctors and medical researchers don’t have to be in on it. Some researches get funded. Some don’t. As a socialist I think that it should not be up to big businesses to decide which is which, but up to researchers themselves and the society as a whole. If this was the case – my skepticism would diminish dramatically.
I am alone here – there are many of you. My time is limited. I am going to save political discussions for another day.
The Mets have/had a bullpen – it just wasn’t any good. This could be verified experimentally by looking at their roster and eliminating their starters. Their bullpen had similar effectiveness at putting out rallies as a fire extinguisher filled with gasoline would at putting out fires.
For other fictional creatures, see: Browns’ defense and competent management (NFL), and the Cleveland Indians’ free agent budget (MLB).
I’m going to bite the bullet and agree with most of what Eremine said (except for the russian name part… russian patronymics sound different *confused*)
A handful of paranoid nutcases questioning the science is good. But after science proves repeatedly that the nutcases are wrong, that’s where the denial has to stop. (and removing Thimerosal made vaccines more likely to be contaminated, so I find that more worrisome actually)
I very much appreciate vaccines, for one because I’ve gone through 2 years of almost constantly being sick with Mumps, Measles, Rubella, Scarlet Fever and lastly Chicken Pox (twice!), and it was nastiness; two, because my mom’s story about being stuck as a child in a city that was quarantined because of a Smallpox outbreak (Wroclaw, 1963)
But
I don’t get the flu vaccine. Ever. Apparently in some circles that makes me an evil bitch who hates little children and old people. I also have for the longest time not understood the point of a Chicken Pox vaccine. of all the childhood diseases I went through, that one seemed least bad, and to my knowledge was least likely to do permanent harm. but now, because most people vaccinate, I would too because the chances of acquiring the immunity natualy as a child would be too slim. (You guys can correct me on the serious consequences of Chicken Pox in children, but I’m not aware of any other than occasional small scars)
Also, I don’t particularly trust an industry whose job is it to make more pills (as opposed to make people better). I usually use Heart-burn as an example. it’s not something I’ve ever experienced personally and didn’t even know existed until moving to the U.S. (that’s to say nothing of Acid Reflux, which seems the same in purple to me). I’ve been informed it has something to do with eating crappy food constantly.
And then there’s margarine, which was supposed to protect us from evil saturated fats and ended up feeding us the much worse trans-fats.
On the other hand, there’s misconception about science though. scientists don’t actually usually change their minds on things as drastically as it’s often portrayed in the media: the diet thing is an example. real nutritionists have held the same ideas about food for ages (too much fat=bad; too little fat=bad; too much processed carbs=bad; too little fiber, vitamins etc=bad; sitting on your ass all day=bad), but the focus of study has shifted from looking at what fat does to us to what refined sugar does to us; so it looks as if scientists have suddenly changed their minds on what is healthy for you. well, they didn’t really. it was more a fine-tuning that got blown out of proportion and sold as the new fad-diet.
Umm…death? Generally considered somewhat serious.
Having chickenpox as a kid can lead to a case of shingles in later life. The virus erupts from nerves making it a painful condition. I had shingles a couple of years back. About 6 weeks of torture.
deathrate was 50 deaths per year… I’m more likely to die from being struck by lightning… but I take the point. Shingles sounds nasty though.
Hadehawk
“deathrate was 50 deaths per year… I’m more likely to die from being struck by lightning… but I take the point”
..I guess you don’t realise how fucking flippant that sounds unless yiu’ve known someone who has died of chickepox. Jerk.
‘scuse typos. Very angry typing. Adult friend died of chickepox last year in a very painful and lingering way. She was a teacher and caught it off an unvaccinated child.
fine. I’m a jerk. I find other issues more urgent, for example getting everyone health-insurance (22000 deaths/year), getting everyone to use their seat belts properly (6000 deaths/year), getting women to get their Pap smears regularly (4000 deaths/year) etc.
Chickenpox vaccine is one of those things that should be offered to those who want it, but screaming about it being necessary is paranoia, and spending government money on vaccinating everyone for it is a case of misplaced funding.
This is why I hate the alternative medicine crowd. “big pharmacy, big pharmacy”, they have no idea of the research yet they allege they are being pushed poison in order to get profits. The level of corruption you are talking about is conspiracy, it’s men in suits in a room passing rounds huge wads of cash in order to silence research and keep independent medical boards silenced. I really get frustrated with people like that as they give us leftys a bad name.
Quite simply:
There is no evidence linking these additives to degenerative disorders, there are people who actually work on these studies worldwide under many different economic systems, researches who have extensively tried to study the effects of chemicals (turns out it’s a big deal), and your evidence that it’s bad is your belief that capitalism is corrupt. What we have now has NO evidential basis that it’s harmful. How can you be so certain it’s bad without empirical support?
@clinteas
//in Germany you get treated for LOW blood pressure!//
//Im not aware of that.I certainly never have.
I’m not a medical person and I dont live in Germany so maybe I’m wrong. But I was told this by a doctor friend and if you type in ‘Germany Low Blood Pressure Treatment’ into Google you will see a number of sites that make a similar comment about a difference in the view of low blood pressure (and I mean LOW) in the ANglo Saxon world and Germany. Just one of those cultural differences I guess!
Jadehawk
..funny we free national health care, compulsory seatbelts laws and free pap smear screening here AND we can still afford to have free national vaccinations for everyone without going broke. Maybe you should consider your government needs to cut “misplaced funding” in areas other than healthcare and driving safety so you can afford vaccines…um…try your defence spending..or maybe your policiticans wages.Perhaps you could use some of your jerkitude to argue against those things.
…and if you bothered to read my post I didn’t “scream that it was necessary”. What I said was you were an insensitive fuckwad that makes those “50 peoples” deaths pretty fucking irrelevant by your disgustingly flippant attitude.
Obviously the second paragraph in #84 there should be in blockquote form too. Those are definitely not my words but Jadehawks.
awesome to know that you know what “my” government is.
*sigh* no, I guess I can’t just leave this idiotic debate.
listen, I use American stats because I don’t know where everybody is from, and it’s more likely to find an American than any other given nationality. but I bet you I could find a list of things that your government could spent the money for universal Chickenpox vaccine and save more than 50 lives. Your personal tragedy is… well… tragic, but it doesn’t make it more tragic than other deaths. And I really think to make it the job of government to guarantee the protection from every possible way a person could be killed is ridiculous.
governments are for systemic problems. the rare chickenpox death is not that. sorry.
and this whole conversation started with me saying that I used to think I wouldn’t vaccinate against Chickenpox but changed my mind, so you’re being pissed because I used to think that I didn’t have a good enough good reason for me personally to vaccinate my hypothetical children?! that’s an overreaction.