Comments

  3. says

    I asked people to email us questions, but our email server is completely down at the moment. So if you sent us an email question, we don’t have access to it, sorry. You can repost it here and I’ll try to get the Q on air.

    Thanks,

    EM

  5. BG says

    I have been listening for the last 10 mins or so and they have been pretty harsh on Ray Comfort, called him a wacko and such. And they have been very positive toward PZ. I like these guys, they seem pretty rational.

  7. black wolf says

    B&J say Ray’s a nut and a wanker! thanks guys, great show. saying hi from Germany.

  8. says

    I wish they wouldn’t beat up Ray Comfort when he’s not there to respond. That seems pretty low. I’d be just as pissed if PZ had to talk first and was then called things like a “whacko” by the hosts of the show, whose opinions aren’t the relevant ones in the first place.

  9. Snitzels says

    What browser works with this streaming? I can’t get it to work in IE, Firefox or Safari

  11. John says

    What’s the phone number?

    Heard on today’s show:

    “PZ was gracious to change to today”
    “Ray seemed like a bit of a wacko”
    “how do you explain nuts? God made-em hard to open”

  15. dtlocke says

    A question for PZ:

    When one of the hosts asked Ray yesterday what was the best piece of evidence for intelligent design, he said that what you should do is read the ten commandments. This strikes me as insane. Could you comment PZ?

  17. BobC says

    I asked people to email us questions, but our email server is completely down at the moment. So if you sent us an email question, we don’t have access to it, sorry. You can repost it here and I’ll try to get the Q on air.

    Please ask PZ to respond to Ray Comfort’s claim that scientists want censorship in biology classrooms. Ray Comfort was talking about censorship of his intelligent design religious belief.

  20. says

    I’m just concerned that the show will come off as really biased. The fact that PZ gets to be the one who rebuts Comfort and not the other way around just adds to it.

    That’s to say I’m unhappy with it. It’s about time the luck went PZ’s way after the Christian radio show let his opponent talk without even giving PZ a chance to respond at all.

  21. sqlserver says

    Arghh! Can anyone get this radio thingy to work? I click on “Listen to Ben and Jim in the Morning” and hear nothing in the popup!
    Firefox 3 on ubuntu, btw.

  27. Serena says

    I look forward to hearing PZ clean up the mess left by Comfort yesterday.
    I wonder if, in all fairness, Comfort will be given a chance to respond? A quick phone in perhaps?
    Really I just want to hear him justify his opinion when faced with strong opposition

  29. Ouchimoo says

    Protesilaus:
    They cut to commercials and people who support them, they said they hop back on at 07 after

    course my clock says 10:09 :(

    Hey PZ did you get a new comment layout?

  31. Nick says

    Since yesterday the host or a caller (can’t remember off the top of my head) asked Ray what the evidence for Intelligent Design was, perhaps PZ should explain what the strongest evidence for evolution is.

    I’d like to see what evidence we could use to show someone who might not have a scientific background in biology that evolution happened.

  32. Dan says

    Works everytime with ie, firefox is sometimes flaky. If you go to wday.com and click on the listen now button up on the top right corner of the homepage it should work no problem.

  33. Bad Albert says

    If you are having trouble: once the WDAY Radio Broadcasts window come up, click on “Listen Live”, near the top, to get the audio. Seems redundant I know, but it works.

  36. BG says

    Bah. If they want to call him a wacko now, they are fine too as I see it. They gave that guy a good amount of their air time to talk to thousands of folks and let him say his piece. If they would have called him a wacko that pretty much would have ended the interview yesterday. This way comfort got to say everything he want to in the time alloted. If the hosts formed an opinion of him from his comments that they are expressing now that is just the breaks.

  43. Paul Schofield says

    Sorry, should have toned down the humour there. Just missed a few sentences then laughing too hard at the grandparents remark.

  44. BaldySlaphead says

    I’d like to ask PZ about this notion that atheists were quoting Ray’s banana metaphor out of context. Does he have any comments to make about this?

  52. LisaJ says

    Oh, I wish I could be listening! I hope you’re having fun and really sticking it to ’em.

  54. says

    Although I didn’t hear it, there is no way anyone in Fargo said “wanker” on air. First it’s not in common use in the area, and second the audience would FLIP over it.

  57. black wolf says

    Please ask about evolutionary predictions, how they are made, where they were successful etc.

  58. Kden says

    Here’s some stuff to scientific studies. Observed examples of Evolution:(talking about it now)

    –Examples of observed new species forming:

    A. Sharman, G.B., Close, R.L, Maynes, G.M., 1991, Chromosome evolution, phylogeny, and speciation of rock wallabies, Australian Journal of Zoology, Volume 37(2-4), pages 351-363.

    B. Ramadevon, S and Deaken, M.A.B., 1991, The Gibbons speciation mechanism, Journal of Theoretical Biology, Volume 145(4) pages 447-456.

    C. Arnold, M.L., Buckner, C.M., Robinson, J.J., 1991, Pollen-mediated introgression and hybrid speciation in Louisiana Irises, P-NAS-US, Volume 88, Number 4, pages 1398-1402.

    D. Nevo, E., 1991, Evolutionary Theory and process of active speciation and adaptive radiation in subterranean mole rats, spalax-ehrenbergi superspecies, in Israel, Evolutionary Biology, Volume 25, pages 1-125.

    E. Kluger, Jeffrey. Go fish. (rapid fish speciation in African lakes). Discover. V13. P18(1) March, 1992.

    recorded examples of beneficial mutation?

    –Examples:
    A. Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).

    B. Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).

    C. A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).

    D. In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997).

    –Examples of beneficial mutations adding information.
    A. increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)

    B. increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)

    C. novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)

    D. novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)

    Most Important:
    H. Variation (including beneficial mutations) arises in populations that are grown from a single individual (Lederberg and Lederberg 1952). Since the population started with just one chromosome, there was no variation in the original population; all variation must have come from mutations.

    As in, that is PROOF that mutations can add information.(rather then just most likely)

    –Examples of mutations adding beneficial new features:

    A. the ability of a bacterium to digest nylon (Negoro et al. 1994; Thomas n.d.; Thwaites 1985);

    B. adaptation in yeast to a low-phosphate environment (Francis and Hansche 1972; 1973; Hansche 1975);

    C. the ability of E. coli to hydrolyze galactosylarabinose (Hall 1981; Hall and Zuzel 1980);

    D. evolution of multicellularity in a unicellular green alga (Boraas 1983; Boraas et al. 1998);

  59. John says

    Ben and Jim:

    “Let’s get some actual science…something to sink our teeth into.”

    PZ: talks about lizards on some islands…evolving of the lizard gut to better digest plant material. nice little lecture.

    Ben and Jim: “Uh. OK.”

  61. Jonathan Smith says

    RAB said “They’ve got funny accents these callers.”

    I resemble that remark !!!

  62. GirBoBytons says

    I can’t get the damned thing to work but I am also not allowed to download anything on my work computer. I suppose I will just have to listen to the destruction later. ::cries::

  63. cactusren says

    Could PZ address the fact that creationists/ID proponents often say there are no transitional species, when in fact there are many? (For example, in the fish to tetrapod transition: Tiktaalik, Ichthyostega, Acanthostega, etc., and in the dinosaur to bird transition: Archeopterix, Caudipteryx, Sinosauropterix, etc…) Why do the creationists think they can get away with saying things that are so easily identifiable as lies?

  67. Bob says

    I’ll be up there for business on Tuesday. In Mitte. Any chance in meeting a free thinker at sbux?

    Oh, great representation PZ! :)

  68. John says

    Caller:

    “Ben and George Washington didn’t know about dinosaurs”
    “Adam and Eve has leash trained Dinosaurs”

    WTF?!

  75. Bunk says

    I think the leashed dino caller was just playing a little joke. Hey the Catholics are out!

  80. Serena says

    We’ve got crackers!!!

    I wonder where this guy heard this “rumor” about leash trained dinosaurs……

    I don’t beleive that is in the bible.

  81. John says

    Ted in Morris:

    What was Myer thinking about desecrating the Sacred Host?!

    They drop the caller! and LAUGH.

    PZ explains the protest to the hosts.
    Ben and Jim seem to have never heard of it!! Are they in a hole?

    “Are people actually giving you death threats!” “WOW”

    PZ – “Strange how people are so attached to a bread product!”

  82. says

    EM – Please ask PZ if he has any hypothesis why creationists flat-out LIE so much.

    Examples such as Buckingham and Bonsell in the Dover trial – under oath!

    Thanks

  86. John says

    Ben and Jim: “Just don’t use any big words..OK?”

    These guys are “in over their IQ”.

  87. Claudia says

    ID is meant to be non-religous, scientific fact. Could PZ and the interviewer discuss why religious belief continues to crop up in ID? Surely it doesn’t help their cause of trying to elbow into the classroom…

  89. Scrofulum says

    I like the way the presenter sounded so surprised that PZ got death threats for blaspheming the glory of a cracker. Almost as though christmastians had never before got pissed off at such behaviour.

  91. Toni16AK says

    Good call so far. PZ gives detailed responses to good questions and doesn’t even need to say how silly Mr. Comfort was. Sane, rational discussions are apparently possible. I’m so pleased.

  92. Archaneus says

    @ #84
    So far it seems like mostly people from here are doing the calling in. As entertaining as it would be to have some more crazies calling in, the quality of question would definitely decline.

  98. Longtime Lurker says

    PZ, you sound so… evil. Better make that EEEE… vill!

    Hopefully, some listeners will compare your informative, reasoned arguments, compare them to Comfort’s ass-hattery, and drop their fundamentalism like a hot pineapple.

    Sigh…

    “They throw like a very clumsy girl.” Ruh-Roh, the concern trolls will be out momentarily.

  103. GirBoBytons says

    How is it unfair that Ray isn’t there to defend himself? Wasn’t him who didn’t want to be there and face PZ in the first place? He had the opportunity to be there and he wimped out, they have every right to make those comments about him when he deciced to split the debate.

  105. bio teacher says

    Chimps throw like clumsy girls?????? How about chimps throw like toddlers?? PZ!!! I’m surprised by that remark!

    But seriously, nice job you almost sound like a rational, thinking person!

  106. says

    PZ gives detailed responses to good questions and doesn’t even need to say how silly Mr. Comfort was. Sane, rational discussions are apparently possible. I’m so pleased.

    I agree. As much as I love bashing on poor lying Ray, I think focusing more on the science and less on Ray’s strawmen is a way better and interview and portrays the issue in a better light.

  109. says

    Claudia sez “ID is meant to be non-religous, scientific fact.” (#87)

    The designers (heh) of intelligent design creationism deliberately crafted it to avoid all mention of God / Genesis / Adam and Eve and Noah et al so – to avoid all overt mention of religion.

    While they, in their abysmal ignorance of actual science (Phil Johnson is a lawyer, not a scientist) hoped that they could produce some actual “scientific fact,” they have failed miserably to produce ANY scientific factual content at all.

    So they have changed their focus to political / public relations / propaganda – because it’s not science – and they now know it – so they LIE a lot.

  111. Jim Babbitt ( Ben and Jim) says

    I’m trying to keep this so the common man doesn’t tune out.

    Jim

  123. Aden says

    Just caught the last 10 minutes, but it sounds like that went well. Congrats and nice job, PZ!

  124. Frank Lovell says

    All in all, a very nice job, PZ! Mighty glad they gave you as much time as they gave Mr. Comfort!

  126. amon says

    Bravo !

    The interview started off a little awkwardly, it stuttered a bit, but ultimately, in comparisson to yesterday’s stupidsplosion, it was an inteligent discussion of fascinating subjects – excellent (:

  127. MPG says

    I only heard the last ten minutes or so live (I only just got back from work), but what I did hear was good. Nice, clear explanations there. I hope someone posts an MP3 of the full show (hint hint).

  128. Longtime Lurker says

    Followed by Paul Harvey and BILL O’REILLY? Ewww!!!

    Nicely done, good professor. Now we need a “mash-up” of you and Comfort, the sublime and the ridiculous.

  129. Barklikeadog says

    Nice closing from the host with the compliment and reference to Ray ray’s ignorance banter.

  130. Rab says

    @ #92

    Yeah, I agree, but since I’m disappointed that the debate didn’t happen and for purely selfish reasons (and for the comedy) I wanted to hear the pro-Comforters speak up!

  132. cactusren says

    Great job to both PZ and Jim. Calm, rational discussion of the evidence–imagine that!

  133. Sacha Sayan says

    Yes! Awesome! Slam freakin’ dunk. So awesome, PZ. I wish you would have mentioned blind salamanders in regards to the muscle question, but that was the only ‘fault’ in an otherwise complete smackdown.

  135. Frank Lovell says

    All in all, a very nice job, PZ! Mighty glad they gave you as much time as they gave Mr. Comfort!

  136. Chiaroscuro says

    BRAVO! that was an excellent interview, the clear answers provided by PZ, contrast with the pseudobabling of Ray.
    But how do creationists expect to win a rational debate when they themselves reject reason.

  137. Jay says

    So can someone make a t-shirt with Adam, Eve, and a dinosaur on a lease? That would totally kick ass…

  138. Claudia says

    I know, Paul… But knowing they lie doesn’t make it any easier when they do! Why can’t people see through the CRAP!!!?

  139. Mr_P says

    Too bad it is over so soon. I have always enjoyed listening to PZ the few chances I have had and this time was no different.

    Mr. P

  140. whateverman says

    Wasn’t able to listen to this; they’ve got our work network locked down pretty tight.

    @Paul #82, the lying is a by-product of cherry picking. It happens in every debatable venue, not just religion: politics, the economy, abortion, etc etc etc.

    Simply put: the side doing the cherry picking is only interested in supporting its claims, rather than in being “right”. Thus, when any evidence is found that appears to bolster your argument, you stop exploring that particular subject, point to the last thing you found, and then claim victory!.

    Imho, it’s less lying than it is intellectual laziness. Which, when practiced systematically, leads to stupidity.

  142. Longtime Lurker says

    Followed by Paul Harvey and BILL O’REILLY? Ewww!!!

    Nicely done, good professor. Now we need a “mash-up” of you and Comfort, the sublime and the ridiculous.

  144. whateverman says

    Wasn’t able to listen to this; they’ve got our work network locked down pretty tight.

    @Paul #82, the lying is a by-product of cherry picking. It happens in every debatable venue, not just religion: politics, the economy, abortion, etc etc etc.

    Simply put: the side doing the cherry picking is only interested in supporting its claims, rather than in being “right”. Thus, when any evidence is found that appears to bolster your argument, you stop exploring that particular subject, point to the last thing you found, and then claim victory!.

    Imho, it’s less lying than it is intellectual laziness. Which, when practiced systematically, leads to stupidity.

  145. BobC says

    What a difference from yesterday’s wacko who invoked a sky fairy every 10 seconds.

    Good comment, last caller!

    The last caller asked PZ to talk about evolution and atheism. PZ’s reply was excellent.

  146. says

    wow, was this interview shorter? I didnt listen to either. But there were twice as many comments yesterday. Or is that just what happens when 40 minutes of brain numbing idiocy is on the radio versus calm, cool, rationalism?

  147. says

    Thanks a ton to PZ and all the callers for making two great shows. All the callers seemed intelligent and enthusiastic, and we’re grateful you showed interest in Ben and Jim in the Morning. We invite you to listen in online again, though our topics are usually more focused on local issues and local politics. Thanks again for helping us make two days of great radio on the ID/Evolution debate. Feel free to email any comments to [email protected].

    EM

  148. says

    Brilliant.

    I was especially impressed when the hosts pointed out Ray Comfort’s Appeal to Ignorance.

    It’s always nice to hear other people recognize that logical fallacy. ;)

  149. Claudia says

    I know, Paul… But knowing they lie doesn’t make it any easier when they do! Why can’t people see through the CRAP!!!?

  151. Phineas says

    Ah, I feel like such an ass! I called in with the “trust” questioned and rambled. I knew I should have written it down beforehand. Sorry! Good answer, though.

    That was really great to listen to, though. Only 1 really stupid question about crackers and lots of really good questions about evolution. Actually, it seems like a good thing now that they split up Ray and PZ. If they’d both been trying to talk, PZ wouldn’t have had time to answer the questions in as much detail as he did.

  152. whateverman says

    Wasn’t able to listen to this; they’ve got our work network locked down pretty tight.

    @Paul #82, the lying is a by-product of cherry picking. It happens in every debatable venue, not just religion: politics, the economy, abortion, etc etc etc.

    Simply put: the side doing the cherry picking is only interested in supporting its claims, rather than in being “right”. Thus, when any evidence is found that appears to bolster your argument, you stop exploring that particular subject, point to the last thing you found, and then claim victory!.

    Imho, it’s less lying than it is intellectual laziness. Which, when practiced systematically, leads to stupidity.

  153. says

    Great job, PZ. Sadly, I doubt that the screeching nit Ray Comfort was listening. He could have learned a few things.

    And, it was nice that the host stayed perfectly in the middle. Maybe this Jim guy should be the one dealing with O’Reilly later today. He could teach Billy a thing or two about having a sensible, coherent and rational discussion.

    I just wish it could have gone on longer. There’s a lot of nonsense out there to debunk.

  155. BobC says

    EM (#148),

    It’s obvious you’re pro-science. You did an excellent job today. Thanks.

  156. Jay says

    So can someone make a t-shirt with Adam, Eve, and a dinosaur on a lease? That would totally kick ass…

  158. Phineas says

    Ah, I feel like such an ass! I called in with the “trust” questioned and rambled. I knew I should have written it down beforehand. Sorry! Good answer, though.

    That was really great to listen to, though. Only 1 really stupid question about crackers and lots of really good questions about evolution. Actually, it seems like a good thing now that they split up Ray and PZ. If they’d both been trying to talk, PZ wouldn’t have had time to answer the questions in as much detail as he did.

  159. says

    Great job, PZ. Sadly, I doubt that the screeching nit Ray Comfort was listening. He could have learned a few things.

    And, it was nice that the host stayed perfectly in the middle. Maybe this Jim guy should be the one dealing with O’Reilly later today. He could teach Billy a thing or two about having a sensible, coherent and rational discussion.

    I just wish it could have gone on longer. There’s a lot of nonsense out there to debunk.

  160. IceFarmer says

    Great interview PZ. Not too many nut jobs. Some people with good questions. I like to think that one highly offended Catholic guy got to challenge the evil PZ with a tough question about the Eucharist desicration and PZ’s answer may have been a bit eye opening (but I doubt it).

    Overall great job PZ. I’m glad my boss didn’t interupt me listening in on my PC here in the office! You need to do more of these.

  167. BobC says

    Only 1 really stupid question about crackers and lots of really good questions about evolution.

    I’m glad the stupid cracker question was asked because PZ gave an excellent answer.

  168. jj says

    @#167
    See post #158 or wait until the radio station web-site put’s up their version, about an hour after the show ended

  170. tsg says

    Imho, it’s less lying than it is intellectual laziness. Which, when practiced systematically, leads to stupidity.

    When they do it on purpose, it’s lying, specifically lying by omission.

  171. E.V. says

    OMG. This thread reads like a bunch of stoners with ADHD. 407 frantic comments about how the audio stream doesn’t work and 233 “Ew, Paul Harvey, Bill O’Reilly” iterations.
    You guys really need t… oh look! There’s a chicken!

  172. says

    You can listen to both the Ray Comfort and PZ Myers interviews from the wday.com/radio website. Just scroll down and click on the day of the broadcast you want to listen to. The archive of the shows will remain up for one week.

  174. BobC says

    Yes the Comfort interview is here:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?mfmdtsstrm9
    (Warning: It is brain damaging.)

    That’s a warning that shouldn’t be ignored. Listen to Comfort only if you enjoy listening to lunatics.

    What’s scary about Comfort and his “Man was made in God’s image”, which he repeated at least a dozen times, is half the American population agrees with Comfort. The other 50% of Americans aren’t much better. Most of the Americans who accept evolution invoke God to guide it.

  175. raven says

    Too busy to fumble with the radio interview.

    What do crackers have to do with evolution?

  176. Reginald Selkirk says

    Give me good, short, sharp questions, too!

    Why do you hate the baby Jeebus?

  178. Brian says

    I agree with those who said that the interview seemed disjointed. While PZ gave good answers, the questions were only OK and the moderation was subpar.

    It seemed like everytime that PZ gave a substantial answer to one of the issues, the hosts got confused, laughed a bit, and just moved on to the next thing they wanted to talk about instead of asking some intelligent follow up questions or segueing into the next sensical line of questioning.

    While it’s good that they gave PZ some time, and he represented science well, this was about as 2nd/3rd rate a forum as you’d expect.

  181. Stacy says

    Thanks for posting those, BG! I had to miss both interviews, and after all the comments here I am very interested to listen to both. I think Comfort will make me angry enough to have a great bike commute in to work today (though on the other hand, he might make me laugh too hard to bike).

  182. says

    One regret: I shouldn’t have fallen back on the old “throws like a girl” stereotype. I should have said chimps throw worse than an out-of-shape, middle-aged biology professor. Oh, well. L’esprit d’escalier.

  185. jfatz says

    Just because this always bugs me…

    “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

    ;-)

  186. craig says

    What’s scary about Comfort and his “Man was made in God’s image”

    Like I always say, that’s the ultimate conceit. The scared and insecure have to puff up their egos, so they create a god, who makes them the center of the universe, makes them in his image (we’re god-like!) and gives them immortality.

    Man created God to give himself god-like powers.

  190. Ouchimoo says

    Wow PZ, your radio time seemed to be a lot more shorter than yesterdays with that Comfort guy’s. Maybe the fact that sounding intelligent forces my brain to pay attention to listening and not . .OMG is it over yet?!

  192. cicely says

    Posted by: PZ Myers | August 6, 2008 12:25 PM

    One regret: I shouldn’t have fallen back on the old “throws like a girl” stereotype.

    It’s okay, Dr. Myers; I’ve got your back. :) I am entirely willing to stand up as ‘Exhibit A, clumsy girl with incredibly poor throwing skills’. And I can supply witnesses!

  195. BobC says

    I think one of the reasons why there’s so many evolution deniers is because they have been brainwashed to believe that humans were magically created to be completely separate from the rest of nature. For example the lunatic Ray Comfort said “I don’t think we’re animals.”

    This was PZ’s excellent explanation:

    The other thing that I think really bugs people about evolution is it dethrones humanity. It says that the universe was not designed to create us. The universe is kind of unfeeling and impersonal, and we are just a lucky accident of history. People take that personally. They like this feeling that they were hand crafted, custom made, tailored for their specific purpose whatever that purpose is on life. What we’re telling them with evolution is that’s not the case. We’re the luck of the draw. We can be happy about that, or you can be very cranky about it. Creationists have chosen to be cranky.

  197. dtlocke says

    No worries about the “throws like a girl” comment PZ. That phrase is so entrenched in our vocabulary that it’s easy to accidentally use it. The important part is that you’ve caught your mistake.

  198. Liberal Atheist says

    Anyone knows where to get this show yet? The radio station’s own website can’t stream audio.

  199. craig says

    Listening to the podcast now.
    (LA, scroll up to find the link)

    Seems to me that this “event” has been a nice little boost for that particular radio show.

  200. LisaJ says

    Re. #196. I love that response PZ. That’s the best tactic, I think. To somewhat sympathize with why anti-evolutionists may feel the way they do, but then turn around and make the point that they’re silly and just kidding themselves. Perfect.

  201. azqaz says

    SeanD @163

    Well, because of the biological/genetic diversity of species something has to occupy the left hand side of the inteligence bell curve. Ray fills that niche for Homo Sapiens.

  202. Jochen says

    @#195:
    The theory Ray is attacking isn’t evolution by natural selection.
    It’s his _understanding_ of this theory which is so terribly wrong, words fail me.
    I would like to know which books about evolution he’s actually read! What book would he recommend?

    Also, it’s always funny when people like him keep complaining about the lack of transitional fossils when he is bound to become one himself!
    We are ALL transitional forms.

  203. bunnycatch3r says

    I don’t see anything wrong with throwing like a girl. They seem to throw differently than boys.
    What’s the big deal?

  204. Reginald Selkirk says

    Cannibal Cult Cowardice
    Catholic Online ran an article on Crackergate, and I posted this comment:

    The outrage seems centered around the supposition that the wafer is the “actual” body of Christ.

    That would make most Catholics “actual” cannibals.

    I see now that they have been kind enough to publish the first sentence. Cowards.

  205. Dahan says

    For a short time I dated a girl who went to state for softball… I only wish I could throw like her.

  208. El Herring says

    I like that last point PZ made at the end of the show, about the concept of a god not adding anything to the scientific debate.

    Of course it doesn’t. And if I may be so bold as to add: it never will. Science is all about the search for knowledge. Religion is the total opposite: it fears knowledge. “Goddidit” is a total conversation stopper, a state of mind that denies any debate or opposing point of view. Like a brick wall right across the highway of progress, the “goddidit” ploy (I can’t call it an argument as it isn’t one) is a literal turning your back on the quest for understanding. I want to learn, I want to know, and science tells me. All religion tells me is to shut up and believe. Not for me, thanks. Believing is for children.

  209. BaldySlaphead says

    BG – thanks for another MP3. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

    Unless you’re a lady and a scholar, of course.

  210. Josh says

    I know that the Cambrian Explosion was about 550 million years before present. If I mispoke – my bad but I don’t believe that I did.

    The base of the Cambrian System is currently placed at about 542Ma (which correlates with the beginning of the period). The “explosion” itself is usually thought to begin at about 530Ma and last for around 10 million years. Of course, there are error bars on the numbers and all of that, but you know…

  211. tim Rowledge says

    >>Posted by: PZ Myers | August 6, 2008 12:25 PM
    One regret: I shouldn’t have fallen back on the old “throws like a girl” stereotype.

    >It’s okay, Dr. Myers; I’ve got your back. :) I am entirely willing to stand up as >’Exhibit A, clumsy girl with incredibly poor throwing skills’. And I can supply >witnesses!

    Feel free to use “throws like tim” I can’t even throw properly when I’m handed a live grenade. Now *that* is embarrassing.

  213. Chili Pepper says

    Posted by: rmp in comment #208
    >Has there been an explanation given as to why there was only one host?

    Because the other one was desecrated?

  215. Josh says

    Feel free to use “throws like tim” I can’t even throw properly when I’m handed a live grenade. Now *that* is embarrassing.

    You’re just not living right unless you have a crazy grenade story…

  216. BobC says

    I flunked baseball. When I threw a grenade in basic training, the drill sergeant was not impressed that everyone had to dive for cover. Maybe that’s why I was never sent to Vietnam.

  217. Quidam says

    I thought the streaming video didn’t work until I got back from lunch to find my computer blaring music. It does work but clearly it couldn’t cope with the Pharyngula hordes and so didn’t connect me until everyone else had disconnected.

  218. El Herring says

    Thanks BobC, I’m honoured.

    I wrote that totally off the cuff after listening to the mp3 of PZ, and had to got interrupted by a phone call just as I was typing the last line. I was going to add more, but lost my thread and just stuck “believing is for children” on the end instead. I could have gone into more detail but probably would have spoiled it in doing so.

    I often write comments like that then look at them afterwards and think “No, that’s not exactly what I meant”, but in that case it pretty much is. Glad you like it.

  219. BlueIndependent says

    Listened to PZ first, then Ray. I don’t think the host is getting enough credit for his demeanor over both itnerviews. I think the host did a fine enough job given his level of knowledge. There were a couple creationist things that slipped by, but I think he did a fine job of controlling Ray as much as he could. Ray is just going to blurt out 100 things anyways, and the host challenged him on several points.

    I also think Ray did a fine job of communicating exactly where he’s coming from, i.e. an entirely subjective personal place of disbelief in evidence/belief in the disbelief of his own eyes, mixed with typical don’t-pay-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain Bible apologetics.

    Both hours together are a case study on the appeal to ignorance, and its deficient examples compared to the appeal to curiosity and exploration.

  220. JBlilie says

    Hey PZ, where can I donwload the show? I missed it this morning and the archive links at WDAY go nowhere … Thanks.

  221. ed says

    Great job PZ,cranky they are! I wonder if Ray would admit that it his sky daddy beliefs that would allow for a dog to have chickens? God could get it done damn it!

  222. Blondin says

    I wish there where more radio stations and hosts like WDAY and Jim & Bob who actually try to give the rational thinkers a fair hearing.

  225. Patricia says

    BG – Thanks for MP3 of the show.
    Great job PZ, you sounded like a smart lovable fuzzball.

  226. Craig says

    Jochen #203:
    He should only become a transitional form if he has some sort of genetic advantage that makes his offspring (there’s a scary thought!) more likely to survive and reproduce. Now how likely is that…?

  227. Pete Rooke says

    The interviewer had PZ at his disposal but just couldn’t bring himself to ask the tough questions required of the situation. The Eucharist, and its desecration, was only mentioned on one occasion and the issue was summarily brushed under the rug.

    This is particularly important given that if the issue had been delved into with sufficient detail the listeners would have had a better grasp of the type of character PZ is – especially when you have PZ presenting himself as the goody, goody tenured professor out to discover scientific truths as opposed to the neo/arch-Darwinist whose Machiavellian – “the ends justify the means” – approach to presenting *his* *personal* truths obscure his half-hearted protestations against framing (as seen in his unseemly spat with with Professor Nisbet). Misconceptions are perfectly acceptable provided they serve the purpose of progressing to the point where his, way, way left of field, Overton window becomes the focal point and his faith-based views are satisfied. In effect there can be no room for God – you can have your Dawkins, I’ll take my Einstein.

    ____________________________________________________________
    Dies Irae, Ben Stein, Dawkins

  229. rmp says

    Great Job PZ. I do find it humorous that crackergate entered the discussion. I’m not sure how it relates to evolution -vs- ID -vs- YEC but I’m betting it had to do with the transfats.

  230. BlueIndependent says

    Rooke, get over yourself. You’re not convincing anyone with your fake appeals to high-mindedness and your chosen misreading and misunderstanding of the “The Great Cracker Caper”.

    “The Eucharist, and its desecration, was only mentioned on one occasion and the issue was summarily brushed under the rug.”

    Because that’s all it deserves. Religious apologists are the ones that made a stink. Please prove otherwise without taking a remarkably subjective position on the matter.

    “This is particularly important given that if the issue had been delved into with sufficient detail the listeners would have had a better grasp of the type of character PZ is – especially when you have PZ presenting himself as the goody, goody tenured professor out to discover scientific truths as opposed to the neo/arch-Darwinist whose Machiavellian – “the ends justify the means” – approach to presenting *his* *personal* truths obscure his half-hearted protestations against framing (as seen in his unseemly spat with with Professor Nisbet).”

    Nice run-on sentence. I personally have a fine grasp of who PZ is, having met him in person. He is the tpyical guy he sounds like, easy to approach, willing to answer questions. He just doesn’t tolerate childish fairy tale explanations about reality that aren’t true. That you don’t like that particular piece of his personality matters not to him, or likely many others here. You can act like that if you choose; just know we aren’t going to tolerate your fits, least of all ones that try to logically reason and assign grievous moral weighting to the abhorrence of torturing food products.

    “Misconceptions are perfectly acceptable provided they serve the purpose of progressing to the point where his, way, way left of field, Overton window becomes the focal point and his faith-based views are satisfied. In effect there can be no room for God – you can have your Dawkins, I’ll take my Einstein.”

    Unfortunately for you, the einstein you think existed didn’t. Dawkins is exactly in line with the Einstein you seem to be rejecting, i.e. the one that reected gods on many explicit occasions. Nono the Overton window is quite where it needs to be: On the facts, no on faith.

  231. nitramnaed says

    How come Ben left the studio for the interview?

    He was there for the RC interview……

  232. SeanD. says

    Posted by: Pete Rooke | August 6, 2008 5:31 PM

    That smell is back again…ugh, crapped your pants again Pete?

  233. BobC says

    Pete Rook, thanks for the link to that music, Dies Irae. You have good taste. Too bad you’re a shit-for-brains god-soaked everything-is-magic stupid asshole.

  234. Genuinely Doug says

    @Blondin #223

    I wish there where more radio stations and hosts like WDAY and Jim & Bob who actually try to give the rational thinkers a fair hearing.

    I think having PZ in a hostile environment is much more interesting myself. PZ can handle his own, and its sure fun to hear the other side spout silly, ignorant arguments like Geoffrey Simmons from the Disco Institute.

    This particular series with Ray and PZ was rather awful. Jim (I didn’t hear much of Bob) pandered to both Ray and PZ. Lots of softball questions, and lots of Jim’s figurative head nodding, without digging deeper (like to does Ray really believe the Dog giving birth to a Cat is predicted by evolution by N.S.). I thought Jim’s remark that Ray was a wacko seemed inappropriate. I am not sure why. Perhaps it was because Jim is supposed to be the “impartial questioner”, or perhaps because he really didn’t seem to nail down Ray’s wacko beliefs during the first show, thus giving him a two-faced appearance.

    Anyway, PZ is sharp, and this show certainly didn’t demonstrate his vast knowledge and keen eye for logical fallacies and misinformation.

  235. IceFarmer says

    Pete Rooke,

    Perhaps you are attempting to find something in/about PZ that isn’t there. (Does this sound like more of your exploits?) PZ has given more than enough of an explanation for his actions. Deal with it. Your vilification of and constant ranting about evolution and PZ are doing nothing for you or your reputation on this blog except to contiuously reinforce what the vast majority already think of you.

    BTW, Einstein was from a Jewish family but his beliefs about God are very different from what you would think. He used the word “God” metaphorically when he spoke to indicate his reverence for the power and wonder of the natural universe.

    Here is my evidence of the previous statements:

    “I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.” [Albert Einstein, The World as I See It American Institute of Physics Online]

    “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
    [Albert Einstein, 1954, from “Albert Einstein: The Human Side”, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

    “I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God.”
    [Albert Einstein, from “Albert Einstein: The Human Side”, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

    “I can not accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I can not prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar.” [pg. 58, Mayer, Bite-size Einstein]

    Pete Rooke, what is the probability that you believe Einstein would agree with your position now?

  236. IceFarmer says

    I almost forgot this one:

    “My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

    Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216

  237. wrpd says

    Too bad this wasn’t televised. PK was wearing a miniskirt just to tempt Pete Rooke.

  239. Sastra says

    Josh #239 wrote:

    There was only one host because PZ desecrated the other one.

    HA! Very good. ;)

  240. says

    The interviewer had PZ at his disposal but just couldn’t bring himself to ask the tough questions required of the situation. The Eucharist, and its desecration, was only mentioned on one occasion and the issue was summarily brushed under the rug.

    Next time there’s a show on about Football I’m going to call in and ask about the intricacies of a proper Souffle.

  241. Rheinhard says

    224 – thanks for the links and the uploads, but for some reason I can’t get the Comfort one (the first one) to work. I got the other one with PZ fine, but when I try to get that one it says “Can’t verify the owner of this file” and I can’t download it. Anybody else have this problem?

  242. BobC says

    Anybody else have this problem?

    I just tried it and I had the same problem you had.

    Not to worry, you’re not missing anything unless you would enjoy listening to a wacko say “Man was created in God’s image” a dozen times.

  244. Frank Lovell says

    [PETE ROOKE wrote:] “The interviewer had PZ at his disposal but just couldn’t bring himself to ask the tough questions required of the situation. The Eucharist, and its desecration, was only mentioned on one occasion and the issue was summarily brushed under the rug….”

    Just as it should have been, the situation requiring the sticking to the subject of whether science or Bible-based religion gives the best accounting of and explanation for the empirical data of the physical world and the natural history of life.

    [PETE ROOKE continued:] “…This is particularly important given that if the issue had been delved into with sufficient detail the listeners would have had a better grasp of the type of character PZ is – especially when you have PZ presenting himself as the goody, goody tenured professor out to discover scientific truths as opposed to the neo/arch-Darwinist whose Machiavellian – “the ends justify the means” – approach to presenting *his* *personal* truths obscure his half-hearted protestations against framing (as seen in his unseemly spat with with Professor Nisbet)….”

    All also way off the subject of the program.

    [PETE ROOKE continued:]”…Misconceptions are perfectly acceptable provided they serve the purpose of progressing to the point where his, way, way left of field, Overton window becomes the focal point and his faith-based views are satisfied. In effect there can be no room for God….”

    Empirical science has found no need for any supernatural creator God. And “God did it” — EVEN IF TRUE — halts rather than advances scientific inquiry. But during the interview PZ explicitly acknowledged that empirical science (in general, evolution in particular) does not prove that no supernatural creator God exists; did you miss that part?

    [PETE ROOKE continued:] “… – you can have your Dawkins, I’ll take my Einstein.”

    That’s fair enough — you go Yahweh, we’ll go ours (but we’ll be taking Einstein with us along with Dawkins).

  245. JessieColt says

    CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa — State troopers investigated an unusual crash Wednesday morning between a tractor-trailer and a buffalo.

    The crash happened on Interstate 380 in Buchanan County around 2:30 a.m.

    Troopers said the tractor-trailer was carrying a load of bananas when it hit the buffalo. The tractor-trailer was ripped open and boxes of bananas thrown across the highway.

    Traffic on the interstate was backed up for hours as crews worked to clean up the scene.

    No one was hurt in the crash. The shipment of bananas was traveling from from Mississippi to Fargo, N.D.

    Witnesses said there might be a second buffalo in the area that remains on the loose. Both animals escaped from a nearby farm, officials said.

  246. Ferrous Patella says

    PZ, re: Throwing Like a Girl

    I have been told (by a woman who can throw a softball further than I can, so I am inclined to believe it) that women’s shoulders are slightly different than men’s shoulders, so they are at something of a biological disadvantage when it come to throwing. A slight modification in technique overcomes most of the disadvantage.

    Supposedly is comes from radial?/quadrilateral? symmetry and women’s hips being built for delivering babies. Does anyone here know if any of this is true?

  247. tresmal says

    Pete Rooke continues:
    I mean, be fair,I mean, I don’t eat squirrels do I? I mean well perhaps I do one or two but there’s no law against that, is there? It’s a free country. I mean if I want to eat a squirrel now and again that’s me own business innit? I mean I’m no racialist…

  249. buckyball says

    Next time PZ, you and Ray should have a debate over things like Joshua 10:12-14, or the molten sea in I Kings 7:23 and how it misrepresents pi or however the argument goes.

    Better yet, invite Chuck Missler and have a three ring circus debate on the Nephilim.

  250. says

    Frank Lovell @ 245:
    “you go Yahweh, we’ll go ours”

    QOTT!

    But, I have to say…

    I managed to listen to PZ’s segment all the way through, which is quite an accomplishment for me, as I’d far rather read than listen. I only managed, with teeth gritted, to take 15 painful minutes of Ray Comfort.

    The problem is , though, that Ray was sellin’!

    PZ is in the unfortunate position of presenting facts, not hype. It rather reminds me of these ‘unnecessary advertisements:’

    http://www.somethingawful.com/d/photoshop-phriday/unnecessary-advertisements.php

    This rears its evil head all the time with republican politics and right wing religions – they’ll shamelessly lie and grandstand to the end to sell their dogma, against which reasonable, rational discourse tends to sound rather, well, ordinary by comparison. Big shame, I say, but I don’t know how to get around it.

    Andy

  251. SplendidMonkey says

    L’esprit d’escalier

    The spirit of the stairs – a wonderful phrase. I thank Anu Garg and Word of the Day for knowing what that means. (as you are descending the exit stairs, the thing you realized you could/should have said moments ago)

  252. BaldySlaphead says

    Listened last night. It was interesting but I wondered whether it was still a bit technical for the non-scientific listener.

    This is where Creotards gain some ground – because all their concepts are based on complete hooey, they can explain ’em in warm and fuzzy layman’s terms.

    A biologist has the disadvantage of having to try and convey a whole lexicon of technical terms and I’m not sure that concepts such as ‘substrates’ actually means a lot to the average bloke in the street.

    It was rather a surprise and a thrill to hear my own (admittedly softball) feedline about ‘atheists quoting the banana thing out of context’ being read out. I thought it might be useful to make it clear that people like RC just flat out lie to support their position.

  253. pyridine says

    Hi PZ. Please don’t waste your time debating idiots like Ray Comfort on evolution. You should debate someone on the quality of The Dark Knight. THAT I’d like to see.

  254. Cheezits says

    …you can have your Dawkins, I’ll take my Einstein.

    *ROFLMAO* “Your” Einstein? You don’t have an Einstein. All you have are a bunch of priests and a stale wafer.

  256. Frank Lovell says

    Comfort is such a greasy dog, he makes even Don Patton (formerly the greasiest YEC I ever met) look good. Following below is how the dialogue went on Ray Comfort’s blog (see the URL that Micketymoc gives above) where he suggests PZ “banana’d out.”

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    Ray Comfort said…
    Rev. BigDumbChimp said…
    “Ray, I’m sensing you were either too lazy or too scared to listen to Dr. Myers’ turn on the radio. If not why haven’t you responded?”

    REv…you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn’t show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).

    I am too busy (working on the thrid seaon of our TV program).
    August 7, 2008 7:07 PM

    Reynold said…
    “REv…you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn’t show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).”

    Apparently, it was the stations’ idea.
    August 7, 2008 7:18 PM

    .
    . [irrelevant entries snipped]
    .

    mjarsulic said…
    Ray said…
    “REv…you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn’t show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).”

    Lying again Ray. Claiming that PZ no-showed is as disingenuous as they come. This is from the producer of the show and is taken from Pharyngula:

    “Hello, this is the producer for Ben and Jim in the Morning, the show that was going to have the Ray Comfort/PZ Myers debate. After looking over the responses to Dr. Myers’ announcement of the change of plans, I thought I would make a short post answering some of the questions.

    “Posts numbers 2&8: The decision to change formats from a debate to two separate segments was made this afternoon by myself and the hosts of the show, Ben and Jim. We decided that given the short time available, neither side would be able to construct much in the way of arguments for their respective positions, and it would ultimately be fairer to both sides to give them their own segment to make their case.

    “As for Mr. Comfort going first, Comfort has a very tight schedule, and Dr. Myers was able to re-schedule easier than Mr. Comfort was. Mr. Comfort will be on the show at ~10:06am CT Tues., Aug. 5th, and Dr. Myers will be on ~10:06am CT Weds., Aug. 6th, each for 20-30 minutes.

    “We apologize that plans were changed at the last minute, but we still invite you to listen to both Mr. Comfort’s and Dr. Myers’ respective segments. You can stream the show live from our website, or can stream it later in the day from the website. We do not currently offer podcasts or downloads of our shows, but they are available to listen to on the WDAY website for one week after the air-date. You can live-stream or archive-stream from the WDAY Radio site.”
    August 7, 2008 7:29 PM

    Ray Comfort said…
    “‘Reynold said…REv…you mean the guy who was a no-show at the last moment. He was supposed to debate me. I wonder why he didn’t show up? Do I smell chicken? Afraid of banana man :).’

    “Apparently, it was the stations’ idea.”

    Sure…
    August 7, 2008 7:32 PM
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

  257. says

    I’ve been getting swarmed with emails today about Mr. Comfort calling PZ a chicken on Comfort Food. Mr. Comfort has already apologized for the statement, and below is the email I have already sent to several people regarding why we changed format, and why Mr. Comfort did not appear to know of the change of debate (it was problems with out email system, he received some but not all of our emails detailing the change in format):

    For why we decided to change formats, we came to the conclusion that being we are a caller driven show, while having both Mr. Comfort and Dr. Myers on at the same time would be entertaining, neither would have been able to fully develop their respective positions, or take many questions from callers. We decided this Monday afternoon. We attempted contacting Mr. Comfort, with no success, and when I spoke to Dr. Myers he was gracious enough to move his interview to Wednesday morning. We sent several emails to Mr. Comfort (actually his assistant) with the changes to the format, and the emails were eventually responded to.

    It is possible, however, that the information in the emails to Mr. Comfort’s assistant was not passed in full to Mr. Comfort. It is also possible that some of the emails we sent to Mr. Comfort’s assistant were lost due to the problems we’ve experienced with our email server this week (which has been an absolute nightmare). This could account for the misinformation that Mr. Comfort is stating on his blog. I will email his assistant this afternoon and try to straighten this out. (NOTE: Ray Comfort has responded, it was a problem of emails not getting through, and he has apologized for his remark)

    Feel free to reproduce this email on any blogs where this discussion is taking place (I’m guessing on Pharyngula and Comfort Food). If there are any further questions, feel free to email me at [email protected]

    Thanks again,

    Erik Matson
    Producer, Ben and Jim in the Morning
    WDAY Radio

    Feel free to re-post this wherever this issue pops up, and if one of the guest bloggers for PZ wants to post this, that is fine as well.

    Thanks,
    Erik

  258. says

    Dinosaurs on a leash (or a lead as we say here in Oz)???

    So does that mean The Flintstones was actually a documentary?