I’ve agreed to another talk radio debate — this time it’s not a Christian radio station, so there’s hope of some ethical behavior on their part — on WDAY, AM 970 next Tuesday, 5 August, at 10am. We’re supposed to debate intelligent design, and my opponent is…
My opponent is…
Really, I’m embarrassed to say it…
My opponent is…
Ray Comfort.
O Lord, could you please stop making my enemies so ridiculous? It’s getting a little bit excessive.
Congratulations, this will be an easy one!
oh no.
this is going to be a massacre.
I quite going to his blog because of how incredibly stupid it has gotten over there. And that is saying something.
Well, at least we know that by the time he is reduced to debating Matt Dillahunty at the Atheist Experience, he will be a completely broken man, having been clubbed to a state of near-death by the logical tentacles of a mental cephalopod.
quit
ugh too much time on the comp today.
Best of luck, man. Just remember, he’s an idiot. If you can keep your cool, you should have no problem coming out on top.
Bwahahahaha! Oh please, post this one when it’s done! (maybe a video would be more banana-friendly?)
But wait…intelligent design has nothing to do with religion!
Don’t forget to bring a banana! (The atheist’s worst nightmare, don’t forget.)
I’d wish you good luck, but that would be kind of unnecessary considering who you’re debating . . .
Have fun! Looking forward to listening. :)
Oh my God. Watch out, he might bring a banana. YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE.
Don’t forget to bring your cyberpistol PZ! Shoot up his arguments with cyber-bullets!
This is going to be a very funny argument.
You can’t fir me, I quite.
PZ’s first task, I figure, is going to be getting Ray to shut up for five seconds. Expect him to saddle up the ol’ Gish horse and ride ride ride.
You know, I’ve caught Ben Stein on Glenn Beck’s show on TV a couple of times the last couple of weeks, and I listen for a minute and think to myself, “When those two are in the same room, it must be the highest concentration of pure stupidity in the universe.” But now that I think about it, Comfort and Cameron probably achieve a higher density.
wow, that is a waste of your and talent time PZ. Ray Comfort is a person who can and should be destroyed by undergraduate students.
I’ve made a huge and dreary mistake.
I’d be guessing that only the most clueless would dare debate PZ any more. Excluding even the mindless Simmons.
I’d say don’t bring the banana. I’m afraid Ray might become overly excited.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I get the sense that you already regret your decision. PZ, in all seriousness, you should consider getting an agent.
wow, that is a waste of your and talent time PZ. Ray Comfort is a person who can and should be destroyed by undergraduate students. – sleepless_in_my_dorm_room
Or kindergartners.
That must be like having a warm, fluffy lobotomy. Hopefully, the effect will only be temporary. Have fun!
Kinda overkill having you go up against him isn’t it? Kinda like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
Oh wow. He should forfeit before he gets stomped.
Well regardless of the actual outcome, we all know how Ray will spin it. He’s already won. He’s going to pull the kent hovind / ken ham style faith filibuster complete with scripture and references to his books and Way of the Master.
Are there any guide lines to the debate PZ?
Nilla wafers (no, this is not another cracker reference!) and some condensed milk go well with bananas to make banana pudding.
Or bring Wonder bread, mayonnaise, and peanut butter then go all Elvis on him with a ‘nanner sandwich.
Defeat ID by eating their ‘host’! ;)
“You know, I’ve caught Ben Stein on Glenn Beck’s show on TV a couple of times the last couple of weeks, and I listen for a minute and think to myself, “When those two are in the same room, it must be the highest concentration of pure stupidity in the universe.” But now that I think about it, Comfort and Cameron probably achieve a higher density.”
I say we test this hypothesis by weighing them and then throwing them into water and holding them under ’til the bubbles stop…
That is how you measure density, isn’t it?
That news fucking made my day! Ray Comfort is an amazing joy to listen to, and hearing him against an expert biologist will be pure heaven (on Earth, that is)!!!!
PZ, please make sure you get equal air-time before the microphones go live. Just a thought, but you know how those religious loons hog the airwaves, loving the sound of their own ignorance.
Are you saying they are Witches?
or Ducks?
or Witchoducks?
You have GOT to be kidding. This, I have got to hear. Ray Effing Comfort?? I’m not even sure he’s actually capable of debate. In order to debate, don’t you need to listen to what your opponent says from time to time? Ray lives in a strange world of his own making. When you speak, it will probably register to him as some kind of foreign gibberish. Of course, that’s more or less what it sounds like to me when he speaks.
I demand a Crocoduck!
It’s not a debate if one of the debaters refuses to abide by reason and some form of fathomable logic. Comfort is as intellectually dishonest as they come. It’s going to be a beating just to endure his level of inanity. Are you sure you want to risk a few brain cells for a majority of listeners whose knowledge is purely dogmatic anyway, even if it isn’t an xian station? NPR yes, AM local -meh. Somehow this reeks of a pearls before swine scenario, but perhaps I’ve become too cynical and jaded.
LOL
Be courteous and use lubrication.
OT, I just saw this and thought of Crackergate: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=949#comic
Ray Comfort? Like RevBigChimp said I thought Ray is just about trying drone out his opponent with BS. I always took Comfort as less an idiot and more a confidence man.
Take a pineapple with you.
“Are you saying they are Witches?
or Ducks? or Witchoducks?”
I would say quack, but wouldn’t that imply a Phd?
No really, I think the “specific epitaph” for them should be “Deaduckus moronosis”
Woohoo, it’s the I-look-like-Einstein guy.
So what exactly is his scientific proof of God? I’d really like to hear it.
Funny how often you’ll hear that people have proof, but they somehow don’t feel like sharing it much.
< ahref="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort
Wait… You mean he’s real?
I thought he was just one big Poe.
Sure seems like it.
#34 – LOL
I’ve never heard Comfort debate so I don’t have any sense of his style or ability. However, he shouldn’t be underestimated. One easy way to lose a debate is to miscalculate the opposition. Sure, what the guy preaches may be stupid but that doesn’t mean he’s stupid or inept.
Just don’t be overconfident, PZ.
So far PZ should bring a Coke Can, a banana, a pineapple, and a Turducken?
Take an artichoke along with the pineapple.
You do know who Ray Comfort is right?
Well I just want to make one thing clear.
I am not going be the one who has to mop Comforts blood and guts from the studio floor after PZ has eviscerated him.
I laughed long, hard, and with much deep felt pity.
Instead of a banana someone should bring a life like dildo and point out to Comfort that it also fits his hand perfectly. Then ask him what the theological implications of that are.
So this is it, PZ. You’ve finally gone bananas.
Before you go, you might want to run through this class real quick.
JoJo is right. PZ should prepare as if he was debating the most vile slippery creationist he can think of. Just because Ray is a effin’ dipshit, does not mean PZ should just treat this as a cake walk…
PZ, the creationists love setting up things to trick you, and better yet, they love to think of themselves as David against Goliath. You know this. DO NOT FREAKING FALL FOR IT!
Awesome.
I can’t wait to hear what the latest “atheist’s nightmare” is.
Holy Crackers, this doesn’t mean you are going to do horrible things with a banana, I hope..
actually a study of other spots on the human anatomy designed to accommodate a banana might earn you a Peely Award from the Discovery Institute.
——————————-
New Atheists for Dummies Pt7: former iconoclast Christopher
Hitchens KPFT Houston
Blaaaahahahaha, Ray Comfort. Better stock up on bananas and keep up on the latest scientific information on crockaducks. Ray is such a blithering moron that easily got pwned by the Rational Response Squad on national television.
Oh hell yes. I can’t wait.
“Ray is such a blithering moron that easily got pwned by the Rational Response Squad on national television.”
The RRS did a mediocre job at best. Sure Ray and “Pal” completely failed at their objective, but they failed all on their own with no help from the RRS.
I want PZ to freakin’ murder Mr. Comfort.
The first thing you will have to do is fight the urge to start laughing uncontrollably.
Really, do try to keep a straight face.
Kudos to Ray!
I mean I wouldn’t have the guts to debate Pz.
He has courage.
I’ve been reading Comfort’s blog for some time now, and I think I should say: be careful of him – he’s very slippery, and almost totally unscrupulous. He’s good at portraying himself as a reasonable person and his opponents as irrational.
Good luck PZ! I’ll look forward to hearing the debate!
Hand in the air – *oh! Oh!!* Pick me, pick me! I’ll do the witch part.
Ol Ray, what a champion True christian – as a dog returneth to it’s vomit, so doth a fool to his folly.
Closest I’ve come yet to doing an actual spit-take.
WoW, Ray Comfort (IQ 80). I think it might be best to ignore whatever he says and just talk about evolution. Oh ya, read up on fruits as this seems to be one of his favorite subjects.
P.S. Watch-out for that croc-o-duck I heard he bites penises.
I vaguely recall that the best bits of that RRS debate weren’t broadcast on TV. Jason Rosenhouse wrote about it.
If you’re going to debate that dipshit on radio, go over to his blog Atheist Central. (Sorry–tried to post a link but it wouldn’t take. Just google atheist central ray comfort.)
You can find such howlers as–
……………..
“If (as is commonly accepted) the natural phenomenon of evolution had no end in mind when it created all living things, it is incredibly intelligent, but it forgot that they would go spinning into space without the law of gravity. So it was fortunate for us that gravity just happened to be around to stop that disaster.”
—The Blind Faith of the Theory of Evolution.
“So if evolution is responsible for our hands and the rest of creation, we should fall at its wondrous feet in absolute homage. We should praise and adore it, and live in admiration of its power and ability. We are morally obliged to fall in worship, for its goodness in giving us the awe-inspiring gift of life. It is only right that we love evolution with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength.
Many do. It’s called “idolatry.”
—Like The Back Of My Hand
“I’ve been looking into the issue for more than thirty years, and I have never seen a hint of genuine evidence of species-to-species transitional forms in the fossil record. The theory stands or falls on the supposed links between species. Even if you came up with what you believe is evidence, time would prove it to be another hoax, as it has so often in the past.”
—Could You Believe?
“So the question that would settle the evolution argument and ease the mind of the doubting atheist is, is there any scientific proof for species-to-species transitional forms in the fossil record? If there is absolute proof of one species actually evolving into another, that would settle the question once and for all. The answer is that there isn’t. There’s much speculation, but the link is still missing. So the atheist has to fortify his faith with all his straw-man arguments and his circular reasoning.”
—Powerful Proof God Doesn’t Exist
“In short, the evolutionary view cannot offer a logical, scientific explanation for either the origin or the complexity of the universe. There are only two choices: Either no one created everything out of nothing, or Someone–an intelligent, omnipotent, eternal First Cause–created everything out of nothing. Which makes more sense?”
—The Origin Of The Universe
…………………
All quotes right off his goofy blog, followed by thread title. There are scores more, many better than these.
Your debate strategy could write itself after looking over some of those gems.
ROFLMA!!!! It took me a couple of seconds to remember who that is and then OH NOEZ!! NOT THE BANANA!! THE PEANUT BUTTER!! OH THE AGONY!! I really really want to listen to this one! This ought to be a hoot!
I assume you’ll be done knocking down his idiocy by 10:05 am.
Check the debate they had with the rational response squad if you want to know what his style is. It involves crocoducks btw.
Comfort is likely to demand there is a need for a supernatural creator and work from there. A few easy and powerful examples showing how kludgy some structures are put together and gain functionality in small steps should work pretty good.
Scenario-Opening statement Myers.”Evolution is Bullshit.Now Banana, tell the good folks how we got here.”
Holy crap, how’d you get talked into that one?
Comfort is indeed the banana guy, but the peanut butter guy is Chuck Missler.
Oh man, this I have to see.
Just so you know, he loves the “Creation has to have a Creator” semantic argument. Deflate that by pointing out that it’s a semantic argument, and refer to it as Existence or The Universe instead.
Chuck Missler again. The last few seconds are good.
Comfort is a complete loon and he has absolutely no problem with lying to get his point across. I used to live in Huntington Beach, CA. where I was treated each weekend to Comfort’s ignorance on full display. I believe he and his minions still “preach” there every weekend.
He used to have a guy dressed in a monkey suit jumping around saying “Don’t let the evilutionists make a monkey out of you”!
PZ, you will have no problem wiping the floor with this moron.
Be sure and get him to admit that there is a “creator” when he plays that shell game known as Intelligent Design.
Will Chunky Monkey ice cream be available to all the guests?
Pasta Sauce: The Creationist’s Nightmare!
And exactly what do you gain by debating Ray Comfort, except to give him more credibility? Would you debate a six-year-old girl? Or a senile old man?
Ask Ray, if a banana in the hand proves that humans are well designed, why aren’t the other simians divine?
And why just the banana? Why not the pineapple or the pear or the watermelon?
And if the banana was designed for humans to eat perfectly, why were there none in the middle east during Biblical times?
Peculiar.
Could some one record it somehow. These are entirely too much fun.
Oh, my God!
I’ve met Ray. He’s a nice guy, albeit uninformed and misguided. He visited us (by invite) at our monthly Orange County Atheists meeting several months ago to ask us about our political views and how non-theists define morality. As expected, he presented the usual creationist canards in defense of his own ideas. It’s reasonable to expect the usual creationist fallacies during the debate (fine-tuned universe, irreducible complexity, argument from personal incredulity, evolution violates the 2nd law, the first cause argument).
Be merciless.
That guy will try to dominate the conversation and not let you talk. Don’t let him do that to you, PZ.
As a side note, I’ve been waiting quite awhile for this guy to get his ass handed to him, scientific-style. So kudos to you for doing this.
Take a look, if you aren’t already aware, of the reasons he proclaims to his followers as to why evolution is false and his illogical approach to how there never have been and never will be any transitional fossils. I’d love to see you call him on that.
He has also said that nothing in the entire world would/could convince him that evolution is real.
The banana thing isn’t important, really, because he has already said in one interview that he has conceded the banana argument.
Now if he will only accept Matt Dillahunty’s challenge !!
Good Luck. and watch out for snake venom…though in this case, old snakes aint so poisonous… as they say.
Ray also seems convinced that for evolution to be true, a new species has to form in a single generation. Dogs giving birth to cats, that idea… Not very bright, but then, these are creationists.
What? No one else has said this yet? Okay. I’ll do it:
Hey, PZ! Do you know how to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana? You shoot him. If that doesn’t work, try releasing the tiger. (You can’t be too careful when protecting yourself against the fruit-laden assailant.)
You should be OK so long as he doesn’t use the argument from spitty-slurpy.
Ray Comfort hasn’t had debate point (or new thought, for that matter) in years. That alone gives you a huge advantage because you know ahead of time exactly what he’s going to say.
This should be like taking candy from a baby. Ray Comfort being the man who said you don’t have to understand evolution to argue against it. What a moron he is and I can’t wait for you to knock him down a few pegs.
Bring an orangutan and a salad to the studio, just to throw him off.
If you wanna have fun with Ray, ask him if he thinks he understands biology better than the NAS does. Then ask him on-air a few tough questions you’d ask one of your biology majors on a final.
When he’s done sputtering out some scripture, spend the rest of your time lecturing him; you know–Where do you get off accusing me and my fellow scientists of deceiving the public when you clearly don’t know enough biology to pass a test any of my undergrads have to pass?
I guess all the good banana jokes are gone, eh?
That’s all I have to add, I’m not peeling well right now.
You can point out that Intelligent Design has as much worth as the track that looks like a $1,000,000.00 bill that Comfort sells on his website.
This track has the picture of Rutherford Hayes on it. Another mediocre Republican president who stole an election.
On a personal note, I have always been fond of peanut butter and banana sandwiches.
Also, since a lot of people have been bringing up the banana argument, I should mention that he’s been happy to concede that one lately. It’s probably not worth bringing up against him anymore.
The Monty Python “fresh fruit” skit is on YouTube, too, of course. Check it out here:
Defense against fresh fruit
I know a great place where Ray can stick his banana… you can tell him God designed it specifically to fit in his special hole. The great thing is that the peel will keep it clean and he can eat it afterwards.
I forgot to include this: recently he said on his blog that human beings are not animals.
You read that correctly. Human beings are not animals and science only says they are so man can sin and act like animals.
I can not wait for this debate.
OMG fangirl squeeeeee!!!!
I mean, enjoy his entrails as you rip every shred of dignity from his person, oh betentacled one.
And as has been mentioned, try to get them to strict time controls, even to the point of using a timer, to keep statements to a reasonable length each and prevent Comfort from rambling the whole time.
His website encourages “spiritual warfare;” so, you better be careful. He may smite you.
Every time you say god say “lowercase god.” He might ban you from the interview just like he does on his blog.
Haha… see if you can get a hold of an autographed Croci-duck photo.
PZ, I appreciate seeing you calling out to the Lord. And I pray that the Lord answers your prayer by one day giving you and opponent better than Ray Comfort.
Ray Comfort qualifies as your debating “opponent” in the same way that Gustaf Johansen was an “opponent” of Cthulu.
I used to be an OK tennis player, and I hated playing tennis against really terrible opponents because they threw off my game. I would still win, usually, but not without a cost in grace. Never underestimate the power of the clueless to bring everyone down.
And as far as that “creation has to have a creator” argument–which is just beyond stupid–it barely rises to the level of semantics. I would just ask if snowflakes require a snowflaker and gods need a godder, then. Makes as much sense.
Careful. If you make God mad he’ll retcon the universe so that you’re wrong about evolution. Oops, sorry, I think he just did. My eyes! They feel so complex!
Ugh. He’s an embarrassment to my cross-Tasman neighbours.
Take an unhusked coconut: if he does whip out his banana as evidence for benevolent design ask him to extract god’s goodness from it with his bare hands.
Wow, talk about a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Give ‘im the ol’ rusty nail PZ!!
Be advised that Ray is not known for his honesty!
I’d recommend doing a lot of research on this particular character as possible. Perhaps by looking at what he says in his book, since I’m sure he’ll mention it sometime, or use material from it during your interview.
This is just one of the many ways he distorts evolution.
He tries to dismiss his actions here.
He’s also one of the guys who loves and defends the “Expelled” movie.
PZ, you’re going up against one of the biggest bullshitters the other side has. And you’re hoping for ethical behavour??
Ray Comfort is just a nice, Jewish boy from New Zealand who got bit by the old “Sin & Salvation Show” bug, and whose ministry now rakes in income the likes of which most, if not all of the posters on this blog can only drool and dream about.
Deluded, yes. Stupid, no.
He hones his technique daily working to bring “sinners” to Christ.
Establish guidelines and rules. Keep him away from sin, salvation, and afterlife.
He posted this just yesterday.
http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/07/my-dishonesty-and-evolution.html
He says archeopteryx is just a fossilized bird, and conflates it with archeoraptor, implying a hoax.
His main theme will be that there are no transitional fossils (which he repeatedly refers to as “missing links”).
The more actual transitionals, along with a good explanation of speciation, and transition, the tougher time he will have.
And make sure to get one of those bullshit $1,000,000 bills that tell you how to find Jesus and get to heaven.
BF
PZ says, “O Lord, could you please stop making my enemies so ridiculous? It’s getting a little bit excessive.”
Invoking HIS name! I thought only nonbelieving golfers did this when they sliced or hooked their tee shots!
Kim wrote:
Not necessarily. Ray Comfort lives in an entirely different universe where the normal rules of debate do not apply.
PZ may “win,” but Ray Comfort will never realize it.
Sweet Jesus this is gonna be fun. Try not to crack up too much during the “debate”.
#100 – I’m not sure what the punishment for misspelling “Cthulhu” is, but let’s just say I wouldn’t want to be you right now.
I’m actually interesting in how this will unfold. Complete illogic and religious zeal versus logic and knowledge. I know how people like this can throw out nuggets of pure insanity that can throw their opponent off balance, even if it has no bearing whatsoever to reality. I think PZ will be able to deal with that sort of thing, but I’m kind of afraid this will end up being as if Comfort was speaking a different language. Comfort will, to use the popular t-shirt phrase, reject PZ’s reality and substitute his own, it may not matter much what PZ says.
It’ll be more a case of putting on a show for the audience then dealing with Comfort directly.
PZ- Can you upload this to youtube or something? Those who can’t listen to it at that time will want to hear it afterwards.
I suggest reading “Nasty Habits:An African Bedbug Buggers the Proof-by-Design” in The Flight of the Iguana” by David Quammen. Has anyone ever mentioned Xylocaris Maculipennis to Mr. Comfort? (I think Quammen may be wrong about transfer of introduced sperm to the female, though.)
I also seem to remember Duane Gish having his ass handed to him by someone who had studied his earlier debates, since he always said the same thing, and having the evidence on hand to disprove him immediately.
Let us know if you get an answer on that one.
Ben Franklin at #105 makes some good points, career wise. I’m trying to sell a product and my cost of goods sold is running 60% of my gross intake, so I’ve got to pay for my overhead and hopefully pay myself on just 40%. If I was selling Jesus my COGS would be zero. No wonder there are so many good salesmen in the Jesus game.
There is an old Cheyenne prayer that the chiefs would recite before they go into battle: “I care little for how weak or strong my enemies are, but please god, let them be overconfident”. PZ, if you let the above comments go to your head, I’m putting my money on Comfort. The Genesis creation story is told twice in half a page. Gould’s “The Structure of Evolutionary Theory” is 1464 pages and the first several detail all about evolution that he had to leave out. Yes, you are fighting a mere ant, but you are being required to wedge yourself into the anthill and fight on his turf. Good luck.
May the Holy Banana be with you.
PZ….are you fucking nuts!?!?
You’ll pwn him though.
@106:
Made me think of
http://cectic.com/069.html
Have no fear. I’m not overconfident. I am not concerned about Comfort, but I do want to make some solid points to the listeners, who I will not regard as a mob of idiots.
According to Wikipedia, he is a regular platform speaker at Southern Baptist State Conferences.
Am I the only one on the planet that didn’t know that
“non denominational” … “bible church” … and “southern baptist” are all the same fundamentalist monster?
As others have said, beware of the gish gallop and the down-home folksy arguments.
Prepare by watching him, and dust off some zingers. Put him on the defensive. Hit him with “well, have your read this? What about this? What about this study, this one, this one this one and these?”
Then follow up. “You say that there never has been speciation, but how can you say that when you aren’t aware, as you said, of this, this and these?”
Nail him, don’t let him talk and talk and talk and talk.
Also, be prepared for the argument from design. Mt. Rushmore, the coke can, a bunch of leaves lined up by his wife.
He will gallop. Gallop him back. Gallop him first.
Here’s a tip bring some evidence, ie peer reviewed papers. Those should blow Comfort out of the water
Best of luck. And PZ, there is no such thing as “too ridiculous” when a debate is concerned.
I assume that you will be going in armed for bear nonetheless, so that you can hit him from all angles and not just with bananas.
(That sounds wrong on all levels. I apologise.)
The only concern is this:
At sixty meters, does a banana vs a cyberpistol look too much like stomping a cripple?
I’m tired of hearing all this “this will be an easy one, PZ”.
No shit this will easy. But why would you do this, PZ? I mean, seriously, why give this idiot a forum? Why would Carl Sagan waste his time debating Paris Hilton on black hole radiation theory? It’s pretty much the same thing.
This will solve nothing and will only debase all the hard work and contributions of the men and women of science who dedicate their lives towards enriching mankind’s knowledge base.
Just my opinion…
PS: …unless, of course, PZ, your aim is to rip apart this assclown…I mean, really, truly rip him a new one.
The poster at #120 has the best advice. To that, I can only add that this is some of the things to watch from his site.
Be advised that Ray is not known for his honesty!
I’d recommend doing a lot of research on this particular character as possible. Perhaps by looking at what he says in his book, since I’m sure he’ll mention it sometime, or use material from it during your interview.
This is just one of the many ways he distorts evolution.
He tries to dismiss his actions here.
He’s also one of the guys who loves and defends the “Expelled” movie.
PZ, you’re going up against one of the biggest bullshitters the other side has. And you’re hoping for ethical behavour??
PZ, along with prayer, I think we need to brainstorm about this. Let’s think hard about this. What can you do to get opponents more worthy than Ray Comfort and Bill Donahue? Let’s use all of our analytical skills to try to solve this problem.
Here’s to hoping (knowing really) you will make his arguments un-Comfort-able for the listeners. I would personally find it difficult to choose which Comfortism to destroy first.
Oh, dear. I can see it now.
Comfort: “I will defeat Dr. Myers’ arguments for evolution without ever referencing God or the Bible! As God is my witness! …damn! Let me start over…”
I generally don’t think that debating creationists is useful for anything. However, as a platform to educate listeners of the reality of the creationist argument, Comfort may make a good example of the kind of idiocy many rational people face from the religios zealots.
<
PZ,
I’m a (sometimes) regular commenter on Ray’s blog, and my avatar is the picture that you and I took together in Seattle flashing gang signs. I love it when my worlds collide.
Reynold Hall @ #125
I read that post as hope of ethical behavior on the part of the host/moderator. On the Christian/Catholic radio stations the moderators seem to spend a lot of time arguing for PZ’s opposition.
Do you plan on using any specific examples, like those lizards in the Mediterranean that developed herbivorous traits over 20 years, or mentioning any fossil species?
Damn, with the troll yuck being hip deep from the catholics, and today the true christians, by Tuesday nite this oughta be the highest smellin’ blog on the innertubes.
Anyone want a peanut butter and banana sandwich?
PZ, don’t you have to be handicapped to compete in the special olympics.
PZ wrote:
Have no fear. I’m not overconfident. I am not concerned about Comfort, but I do want to make some solid points to the listeners, who I will not regard as a mob of idiots.
Exactly. Comfort will be valuable as a sparring partner. Study him, discover some of his most popular soundbites, and come up with short, memorable little soundbites of your own as responses. This is a tough audience, but not stupid. And they will be appreciative of (and probably surprised by) kindness, courtesy, and friendliness.
I worry that your biggest problem will be keeping Comfort off of Crackergate, and sticking to the topic of the debate
Speaking of Matt Dillahunty (@3) I half expect P.Z. to get an email from him with solid refutations of every argument Comfort has ever made. Because 1) He actually has that email handy. 2) Actually sent one off the the RSS when they went with comfort.
Alternatively the http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page has a pretty good listing of every refutation you’d like to any of his “shows” but as PZ will clearly do fine in any event he should probably limit himself to practicing responses to Ray’s gotcha 10 commandment arguments.
Have you ever lied? What does that make you?
Have you ever stolen something? What does that make you?
Have you ever taken the name of the lord in vein as in a cuss word?
Jesus said, “Whoever looks at a woman and lusts after her has already committed adultery already with her in his heart”, have you ever looked at a woman with lust?
So you’re a liar, thief, blasphemer, and adulterer and when you stand before God on judgment day will you go to heaven or hell?
This is actually pretty common so you need to get your snarky replies ready.
Have you ever told the truth? What does that make you?
What do you call a person who lies? A preacher.
Have you ever cussed? That’s not even close to what the commandment actually says. It says take the name of God in a false or vain oath. It is a contract making device for a lawless time without courts. Give me grain today and I swear to God I’ll give you a third of my harvest as agreed.
Have you ever stolen something? No. Not even something very small like a pack of gum? No. Never.
Get the snarky ready.
BAAAAANAAAANAAAAA
For a refutation of The Way Of The Master, there’s always this
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3E165308E7342A8E
Beware, PZ. Entering a battle of wits with an IDiot is dangerous – they aren’t bound by reason and logic like you are.
WOW, when I read the name Ray Comfort I could not stop laughing XD. I thought I would see Michael Behe or someone equivalent but I guess ID is so terrible that only the scrap from the bottom are still trying to argue for it. May the force of the Coconut and Pineapple be with you PZ hehe ^_^
Witchduck? I thought Comfort (and Kirk Cameron’s) favourite kind of fake animal was the crocoduck!
I’ve been writing a refutation of the Atheist chapters of Comfort’s School of Biblical Evangelism. You might be interested in taking a look.
He’s going to tell you that Atheists don’t exist. Oh, and he uses the same “proof” of God that he did against the Rational Response squad. God is “self evident” because every creation needs a creator.
bleh.
Ask Comfort to explain why(without invoking conspiracy theories) why it is that no biotechnology company employs intelligent design in any of it’s research?
I mean really, if a company was to discover something to give it an edge then they would make billions.
Ask him that
PZ, I recommend you drop by the Atheist Experience blog before the debate. There was a recent brouhaha with an (idiot) atheist threatening to sue Comfort over a bumper sticker. I wouldn’t be surprised if he brings it up, as an example of the irrational mentality of atheists.
Here are the relevant posts, in order:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
And here’s the link to the “Atheist Experience” TV episode on the subject.
It’s recommended viewing for everyone, since it’s quite a lot like crackergate, except with an idiotic atheist in the role of the Catholic League.
PZ, this is exactly what you ought to focus on (in the general hour of ass-kicking): don’t let him beg questions by defining the universe as a creation or a design. This is all the idiot has — “a design requires a designer; a creation requires a Creator”…just stick it to him. Make him tell you why the universe is designed or created, rather than just existing
“Ray Comfort is just a nice, Jewish boy from New Zealand who got bit by the old “Sin & Salvation Show” bug, and whose ministry now rakes in income the likes of which most, if not all of the posters on this blog can only drool and dream about.”
Ray was Jewish?
Good riddance I say.
If I were to corner Comfort on just one question, I’d ask him about the “Problem with Heaven”.
Can you really live it up in Heaven while knowing that someone you love is condemned to Hell?
Be careful, PZ. Ray is an easy target for people who can apply critical thinking to religion – but you’re not debating a person who can apply critical thinking to religion. You’re debating someone who will jump through any hoop needed to keep his faith alive. You have much to lose, and little to gain – stay on science ang you’ll be fine.
In between laughing at Ray Comfort I would remind him the reason for his denial of evolution is because evolution is the greatest threat to the death cult called Christianity. I’d tell him evolution threatens the insane fantasy world Christians live in, and that’s why they are constantly trying to suppress the teaching of biology.
Ray Comfort? Forgive me if I am wrong, but isn’t this the guy who claims that ID is evident in the banana because it fits so well into one’s hand? Somebody should point out that the banana has a shape that is just as suited to another part of our anatomy…
“Can you really live it up in Heaven while knowing that someone you love is condemned to Hell?”
I suppose Ray doesn’t believe that 1 Peter teaches about postmortem conversions.
God is “self evident” because every creation needs a creator.
Now I know this is to be a debate on how aminals came to be, and I’d rather it stay on that topic, but one of the questions that comes to my mind when someone brings out the “sunsets, butterflies, and kittens” proof for God is “So why, exactly, is it necessary that I worship this self-evident being (especially when no one can even agree on how I am to do it)?” There’s no reason that they could give that doesn’t reference the Bible, and that musty old book should be considered out of bounds when talking about the objective real world, as far as I’m concerned.
I’d be a bit wary of this one. As a man in a pub once said to me
“Never debate an idiot. They’ll bring you down to their level and then beat you through experience.”
“Somebody should point out that the banana has a shape that is just as suited to another part of our anatomy…”
From the way that this gets repeated every time someone mentions ray Comfort, I have to conclude that the banana-penis link is WAY more self-evident than the banana-God link. Are the only people that Comfort hooks with that line sex-phobes or asexual people? I mean, surely Kirk Cameron got around a little while he was a TV star…
If you can manage it, get Skatje in a gorilla suit to stand behind you and make gestures at him… with the banana.
Mind you I don’t think he would win out in any impartial way, but probably will stun and leave you speechless with the inanity
Be sure to bring your sense of humor … and and a banna to snack on ;-)
Ha, anyone really think Ray is looking to debate?, he wants you to know a painting had a painter and according to his logic there can be no higher truth, no mater how many facts get in the way.
Those two young atheists from the Rational Response Squad tore Ray Comfort to shreds; does either of them possess anything above a bachelor’s or master’s degree? I think it should be possible for anyone with half a brain and a course in introductory evolutionary biology to outwit Ray Comfort.
A woman favored toy. A banana
Oh my! You poor man. If I were you, I’d start practicing sitting on my hands now, because I’m sure it will take all of your power to not reach out and strangle him every 30 seconds. Good for you for having the energy and patience to even think about debating with this man. I am looking forward to the entertainment!
By the way, is Comfort really his last name, or did Mr. Banana make up a new last name to help convince those crazy fundamentalists that he was meant to be their leader?
Oh my. This is going to be ridiculous. Who picked the lineup? Because my cynicism tells me that Ray wants to use you to raise his credibility and get more hits on his blog.
Anyway, seems to me that the Gish Gallop and quote mines are his biggest tools, so might want to have the full quotes in context handy for some of his most popular mischaracterizations and make sure the hosts are prepared to keep him on one topic/theme at a time to give you an opportunity to eviscerate each in turn.
Someone be sure to record this, please.
Why I’m giving you debating advice, I dunno. Unless you suffer severe head-trauma between now and Tuesday or accidentally eat some funny mushrooms that morning, this is gonna be a scientific beat down of the yahoo.
His first question: “Have you ever sinned?”
I want you to have a detailed list ready.
Is he strictly a creationist or does he entertain a theist evolutionist option?
Oh please, oh please, pretty pretty please… will someone record this? What with the time difference and all that I’m sure I’ll miss it, and I don’t want to. This will be epic. I wonder what he’s going to do without being able to show his ridiculous pictures of the animals he thinks evolution should produce? He seems to rely on visuals quite a bit.
Also, the banana jokes are never gone; there’s always the banana sketch by the legendary ‘Gags’ Beasley. ’nuff said.
Strict creationist in the most ridiculous way you can imagine.
Good luck, PZ! You’re going to need all of your patience for this one!
If he asks if you’ve sinned your reply should be: ‘by whose standards?’
When he answers ‘god’, go to town.
“Oh please, oh please, pretty pretty please… will someone record this? ”
Since when has anything like this gone unrecorded?
You do know it is um,.. like 2008?
green bananas or yellow?
James #164 wrote:
Okay, I’ll admit that I haven’t really studied Ray Comfort and his methods much, but would he really ask that question to start off a debate on Intelligent Design??
I’d bring a durian with. That way I could break it open to end the “debate” if needed.
Yes. 100%. Ray doesn’t believe in ID, he is all about creationism. He tips his hat to ID only because its a means to an end, and that end is promoting Creationism.
Ray is not complex. Ray is a simple man and his methods are too. If you search for him on You Tube you can see his methods. They are crude and built on trying to trick his opponent into word games.
This will be one for the ages. Can’t wait!
# 161
Whatever you do, don’t get these guys started on Women and fruit, it’s all downhill from there.
I guess I can guarantee it won’t be an interesting conversation. The real question is… how entertaining will it be? I’m really curious to see how this turns out.
But the topic is intelligent design? Does that mean Ray Comfort actually has to make a case for intelligent design… and PZ gets to respond? Or is this going to be another… “PZ… defend evolution… GO!”
Bring pineapples or durians to rebut the banana argument. Or to commit “Mau-Mau” on him. You know, that joke with the punchline “And the chief says ‘very well then – death by Mau-Mau'”.
That or point out that bananas were first cultivated (intelligently designed – by man!) from their untasty and seed-filled wild cousins about four thousand years BEFORE THE EARTH WAS CREATED (according to his reckoning, anyway). Are we to believe they were grown in space before there was any light?! Now that’s a miraculous astro-fruit!
I’m all for a debate between Comfort and Matt Dillahunty. PZ… have fun. I’ll check in. (This means I want Comfort to show what he is … a jerk.)
I haven’t listened to the exchange, but supposedly Hellbound Allee got him to admit how bad the banana argument was in an interview, and he supposedly retired it. It’s probably best for PZ not to actually bring it up unless Ray does.
I would like to see PZ force Ray to admit what a stupid argument the Crocoduck is, or maybe the painting/painter one, but I don’t know what Ray would argue with then.
Is it really worth stooping to their level and taking ID seriously for even one second? Doesn’t Dawkins refuse to debate ID/creationism because he doesn’t want people to think the nutcases have a legitimate argument?
I wouldn’t bother talking to ray comfort but if you do, remember that bananas are cultivated and that pineapples and coconuts are very difficult to eat.
Oh, I came here to read the snarky commentary and was rewarded for my efforts with a Muppet Show reference. A Fozzy Bear one, no less.
It’s going to be a great weekend.
Ray is an intriguing debate choice. It might be a little more interesting if PZ debated Ravi Zacharias.
More like, PZ Defend this fantasy land version of The Theory of Evolution. Start with the Crocoduck!
Go!
So long as he comes out of it as bRay disComfort, all will be well.
Darwin = The Man Who Killed God
@ 151 :
//Somebody should point out that the banana has a shape that is just as suited to another part of our anatomy…//
Yes,and whoever will point that out please make sure to make a Youtube video about it !
@ 136 :
//PZ, don’t you have to be handicapped to compete in the special olympics.//
Well,it could be argued that you maybe shouldnt compete in the special olympics if youre not handicapped !
I agree with previous commenters,little to gain,much to lose debating someone who is not bound by logic or ethics.
And yes,PZ,you should get an agent !
Ray Comfort only has one trick, so be prepared PZ! He’s going to claim that you already know “in your heart” that God is real and that evolution is made up, you just won’t admit it because if you did you’d have to stop sinning all the time. He’s also absolutely going to say “if you see a building you know there was a builder, so when you see the Creation, you know there was a creator.”
I will now activate my psychic powers in an attempt to be more helpful. He’s going to ask where the universe came from and how life formed, and he’s going to quote mine Darwin about the formation of the eye. He’s also likely to ask you a series of chicken/egg questions like “which evolved first, male or female, and what did it mate with?” and “which came first, the digestive system, the food to be digested, or the enzymes that keep the stomach from digesting itself?”
I contributed a little to the Rational Response Squad debate and I think the beatdown was unimaginable. Nonetheless, Ray’s due for another spanking so please give it to him.
Maybe you could relate how the banana evolved:
“The bright yellow bananas that we know today were discovered as a mutation from the plantain banana by a Jamaican, Jean Francois Poujot, in the year 1836. He found this hybrid mutation growing in his banana tree plantation with a sweet flavor and a yellow color-instead of green or red, and not requiring cooking like the plantain banana.” (The History and Evolution of Banana Hybrids)
Then go through the banana spiel with one of the old yucky colors and the hard starchy texture.
You will be asked to take the good person test. Luckily you have 4 days to study.
George Hrab’s, WAY OF YAHWEH, is a clever parody of Comfort’s banana. http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podshows/2112854
I recommend listening for an added giggle factor to the Ray Comfort “debate”.
Even though PZ will demolish him–I would avoid him at all costs–he’s a egotistical opportunist looking for publicity. I mean who puts their picture in the header graphic of their blog? That’s what the sidebar is for!
Note that he has recently metamorphed his web site into what he now calls AtheistCentral (disingenuous labeling).
Promotes bad science. Even worse theology.
He’s going to try to get you sputtering, reeling as the deck heaves from wave after wave of pure illogic.
I’ve visited his blog a few times, left comments, but gave up as it was a deeply annoying experience. I can’t read three sentences of his without being reminded of the line from M*A*S*H (I don’t remember the episode or context) where Pierce says; “Stop! The human mind can only withstand so much gibberish!”
So you don’t expect too many evangelists or cat’lickers will listen??
So if he’s a creationist, what the heck is he going to say for pro ID? ‘We differ about the time frame but we all agree that there is a God’?
well I’m not one to try and suggest that Ray makes reasonable decisions.
But I’m sure this is the ID leads to god which leads to Creationism.
Is that 10am EST or what?
10am local time — I’m in Minnesota, they’re in Fargo. So 10am Central.
PZ, one of the recurring complaints of Hank Morgan in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court was that he could not win an argument with the locals, because they lacked the intelligence and/or knowledge to realize that he had done so.
Getting points across while avoiding–well, minimizing–claims of condescension is going to be an interesting exercise.
holy crap. Someone (#191) stole my name.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha… *deep breath*… ha ha ha ha ha… *hit the ground grasping at stomach…. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha… *passed out from anoxia*… etc.
“A woman favored toy. A banana”
Yikes. For a second I misread that as “woman flavored.”
I’m still trying to get my hands around Ray making a god of the gaps type of argument. It’d be my guess that he’s in a debate where he can’t talk at all about time frames or how or what. Simply that there must be a god (let’s ignore the time frame and details).
OMG haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is REDUCKULOUS! – what a maroon! – Ray Comfort is so stupid haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa – I can’t quit laughing – this is going to be sooooooooo funny – no wait, IT ALREADY IS!!!!!!!!!
Just have a V8 before you debate PZ, that should be fruity enough – OH MAN, this is gonna be wonderful – Jehovah’s Witnesses could destroy Ray Comfort…with a little scientology on top
craig #201 wrote:
OMG! You’re right! I was totally fooled, too!!! I assumed it was you!
(given innocuous content of #191, I doubt it’s a troll trying to discredit you. But you may have to have an ugly fight over who has to capitalize the ‘C’ now). craigwars.
I think that’s my point. He’s not going to argue for ID, he’s going to use this as an excuse to push creationism in its classic form whatever the actual topic may be.
I could be wrong and he could surprise me, but like you I can’t conceive of Ray actually making ID style arguments. Of course Ray could be reading this and who knows.
Heh. There’s a gradient of theology so that his can be called worse? More like it’s all shit and there’s a gradient of obfuscation among it’s practitioners.
Rev. BigDumbChimp #207 wrote:
I just really, really hope Ray Comfort doesn’t use the banana argument. That’s our worst nightmare! We all know that. There’s no good response. It leaves us atheists sitting there, mouths agape, and the minutes tick by. If he brings that up, PZ is doomed.
Doomed, I tell you.
Doomed.
Heh. I think he learned his lesson. The entire weight of the skeptic internet came down on him after that. He’s cunning in a rat like way. He’ll dodge a few things but it always comes back to the same classic lame tactics.
1. Create Strawman argument of evolution (Crockoduck)
2. ignore rebuttals that show he doesn’t understand the ToE and is making Strawman Arguments
3. Quote Scripture
4. make lame jokes trying to win over audience
5. claim victory
Sastra,I know that you know that I know that he knows that this is all a joke but please, I’d rather never see the banana argument again.
I prefer the coconut argument. When the man eating carnivore (that happens to live in the coconut belt) is chasing you (6000 years ago), you kill it by throwing a coconut at its head. Then you continue to bang it’s head with the coconut until you get the damn thing to crack open.
True story. On a whim I bought 6 bananas a couple of days ago. Can you believe it? I can’t even go near the kitchen now I don’t know what I was thinking. I got home and started unpacking the groceries and suddenly there they were staring at me… mocking me… belittling me… I’ll probably have to call someone in to have them removed.
It seems to me that the difficulty of dealing with Ray and his ilk lies in bringing sharp focus on one or two things and not allow them to stray into other subjects to avoid answering hard questions.
If you can revolve the discussion around, say, natural selection alone and keep him pinned there with having him explain what HE thinks natural selection entails you will be able to correct him without engaging him in unnecessary tangents as he loves to do.
If he wanders simply remind him what the focus of discussion is and give him no chance to begin preaching which is what the purpose behind his participation in these debates seems to be.
There’s a gradient of theology so that his can be called worse?
Yes. Ray is the God Hates Fags guy–but with a smile and a corny joke. He believes all the same things, except his motto is God Hates All Humans. And he believes that the vast majority of professed Christians are “fake” Christians–and headed to hell like the rest of us sinners. This is a prominent meme on his blog.
At least some theologians have had principles (Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Martin Luther King, Jr. come to mind) worth admiration. You know the kind that did the right thing–whatever their motivation–even if it cost them their lives. Individuals who valued people over symbols (or even crackers).
“It seems to me that the difficulty of dealing with Ray and his ilk lies in bringing sharp focus on one or two things and not allow them to stray into other subjects to avoid answering hard questions. ”
Yep, keeping them from running around is a major task, and PZ must be sure to instill order if a mediator does not. He must insist that the mediator also not be dragged off topic as well which Ray might try and do if PZ does not bend.
Next, Ray will act like an expert, but will cry wolf when and if PZ talks to him at a professional and experienced level, and will act if PZ is trying to act like an elitist. This is a trick and PZ must keep talking to him as if he is an academic equal, and if Ray claims he is not an “expert” PZ should then point out the arrogance about debating a topic he does not know anything about.
Finally, when he fails the hard questions, go to basic biology 101 questions and ask Ray his opinions on these. When Ray does not know how to answer, point out the fact that these are, in fact, Freshman level biology questions.
Richard, if you’re right, it would seem to me that a lot has to do with the moderator (with PZ’s help) keeping them on topic. I’m not hopeful that that will happen.
snicker, I always get a kick out of it when I can write ‘that that’. OK, I don’t have a real life, so what’s your point.
These “debates” always seem to end up with the creationist droning on and on, while the “moderator” (usually a credulous dumbass) respectfully lets it happen.
It is always a mistake to “debate” a clown like Ray Comfort.
By simply showing up, PZ, or whomever, is giving the creationist a platform and a station that he just doesn’t deserve.
Ray Comfort doest not merit serious debate. I’m disappointed that PZ has lowered himself, and by extension, lowered science to the level of Comfort.
Good point. I can’t help but thinking that his popularity is due, in part, to his “Hey Mate” attitude and pearly whites. The veneer he paints over his fundamentalism hides the lies he’s spreading (through cheap DVDs, Kirk Cameron, and public preaching) and his “god hates fags” beliefs. Guys like Bill Donahue, Fred Phelps, etc are easy to “demonize” but more liberal Christians look up to Ray despite the fact he is peddling the same bullshit and hate.
I take it back, there’s a whole slew of theology gradients.
“These “debates” always seem to end up with the creationist droning on and on, while the “moderator” (usually a credulous dumbass) respectfully lets it happen.”
This is my biggest concern. PZ needs to forcefully/respectfully make sure the moderator does his/her job!
Seriously. The interview on “Catholic Radio International” was annoying as hell. They gave the priest huge swaths of time with nothing more than a “Uh huh” and “Mmmm” while he babbled on and on (contradicting himself as the interview progressed, but this was never pointed out). Then when PZ got to speak he was interrupted (by the hosts) every time, sometimes after just a few seconds and completely broken off when he started on an interesting tangent.
Don’t stand for that bullshit. Call for strict time allocations if you have to.
I’m not so sure Comfort will bring up “crackergate”. He has major problems with Catholicism and probably thinks it’s just a cracker as well. Catholics aren’t “true Christians” in Ray’s book, I mean, tract. They’re false converts.
We know full well that you won’t dissuade him of his beliefs with your logical, rational argument. You might have hundreds of peer reviewed articles backing you up and your own work on top of it. He’s got hundreds of years of backward thinking and a book of irrelevant history in his arsenal. It’s not a fight that can be won with words. He’ll never believe them.
I don’t really see how putting the two of you together could be anything more than a wasted effort or publicity stunt. Good luck anyway, though. I hope the audience appreciates your intelligence over his IDiocy.
Two cents: since you’ve committed, I’ll enjoy listening to you schooling this sleazy jackass in public, but I still wish you’d taken the Dawkinsian high road and passed on this one. Comfort doesn’t need your name on his resume.
“He has major problems with Catholicism and probably thinks it’s just a cracker as well.”
Only when it suits his purposes. I think in this particular case he’ll be quite happy to wield the cudgel of “beliefs must be respected!”
It’s the only defense for his nutty beliefs, remember.
O Lord, could you please stop making my enemies so ridiculous? It’s getting a little bit excessive.
Sometimes, I have this sneaking suspicion Comfort is some kinda IRL Loki troll.
I was feeling bad because I have a dental appointment that day, but after hearing your news I feel for you. I couldn’t imagine debating Comfort. It makes one’s brain feel like a congealing mass of banana pudding just thinking about how much insanity and inanity you will have to fend off.
You’ll stomp him into the ground, I’m sure. Just make sure that when you say “God” or “Jesus” just be sure to capitalize them. He’ll delete you if you say “god” instead of “God.”
PZ –
Mr. Comfort is probably going to take you to task for including a banana in the “desecration event” …
Be careful in the debate. Don’t forget, Our Boy Roy proved “scientifically” a while back that his God existed!!
I’ll be looking forward to a summary of the “debate” …
I have a request!
When Ray starts babbling about how he’s never seen a “missing link”, please whack him upside the head with a Herring Gull for us.
Countless others have said this, and it can’t be emphasized enough: Ray does not accept standards of reasonable and logical debate.
– he has no problem with simply not answering questions
– he will play word games in bait&switch style
– he will argue from a presuppositionalist position (God is the absolute standard for logic, so you can’t argue logically without invalidating your worldview and accepting his)
– he will keep demanding evidence while only accepting his own standard of evidence (instant creation of new species under direct observation, i.e. no bacteria from bacteria, no plants from plants)
– the usual ‘you can’t disprove it, that settles it’
– he will probably have at leat a dozen mined quotes from Einstein, Hawking etc. handy, requiring you to provide proper context for every single one of them
– he will often appeal to authority (i.e. Newton) while rejecting yours
– he will tell outright falsehoods (the Constitution is based on the Bible, persons x,y,z all believed in God (therefore it’s my God), a huge number of scientists believe in ID/creationism, there is no evidence for common ancestry, atheism is faith, there is no evidence refuting anything in the Bible)
– bomb you with quotes from theologians and apologists until time runs out
All of this should be no problem for you technically, but if you want to refute his arguments, you’ll need a huge amount of factual information, thus the less you let him get on the offense, the better. Keep in mind, if you want to convince uninformed listeners, that many listeners are not aware of debate standards. They wont recognize the invalidity of circular logic and other fallacies. Don’t get defensive, dissect all of his fallacies, and point out to moderate Christian listeners that Ray is not one of them and regards them all as sinful false converts (he’ll probably try to avoid that topic). Do not argue about scriptural contradictions irrelevant to evolution, he will spin everything his way, even if he must contradict himself and scripture. Be ready to explain natural reasons for love, conscience and morality.
black wolf seems to have the best advice so far.
Record this and post it FOR FUCK’S SAKE.
I can’t listen but I am betting it will be hilarious. Couldn’t they have given you a more worthy opponent?
Like, say, a brussels sprout?
What motivates scum like Ray Comfort? How can these people sleep at night knowing that they’re compulsive liars and knowing that educated people laugh at their breathtaking stupidity?
I am actually drooling over this imminent slaughter… tear him one from me PZ!
And I agree with Worg @ 232 – pleeeease record and post!
RAY COMFORT!
BAHAHAHAHHAHAH
Bring on the clowns! Should be a good circus.
BobC,
some do it for big profit of course, selling stuff and raking in donations, but you know that. I have no evidence that Ray makes big bucks, as I know very little about his lifestyle. As far as I know, he’s not yet been spotted riding the big limo and buying designer suits. I his case, I assume he does it for both his ego and his income. He does sell a lot of different stuff, but I don’t know what the margins or the turnover are. He clearly has a paladin complex, the way he deliberately draws scorn and ridicule by preaching in public from a box or a ladder (in his videos), or bringing an orang-utan to a restaurant. He really thinks he’s doing people a favor by denigrating them and insulting their intelligence. Pretty common psychologically conspicuous behavior, typical of people attracted to preaching professions. In a world without religion or other superstition, he’d be a politician or a conspiracy nut.
I wonder how long it will take for PZ to need his famous catch phrase, “Your ignorance about the state of the fossil record is not evidence that there are holes in evolutionary theory”?
I’ll give Ray his props for having the balls to allow pretty much anyone to comment on his postings. A cut above the usual cowardly types who would rather exist in an echo chamber.
You hope for ethical behavior from Comfort, and you acted in a most unethical manner towards Catholics. Can’t have it both ways Myers.
“You hope for ethical behavior from Comfort, and you acted in a most unethical manner towards Catholics. Can’t have it both ways Myers.”
Where did Mr. Myers do this?
Do you have appropriate protection for facing Burning Stupid on that level?
Yikes.
You know Comfort is going to declare victory no matter what. (Way of the Master -> repeat crap, repeat it louder, any result is success, anyone who disagrees was doomed from the start anyway)
This will be posted online when it’s over, right?
I don’t live in MN but do NOT want to miss it.
Whenever possible, use words he’s not expected to understand.
Oh!
And PZ — you should bring a banana to eat – partly for metaphorical reasons, and partly because you obviously eat them already. (You didn’t let that fruit go to waste before tossing it under the cracker, right?)
Bananas are a great source of Niacin!
10 bucks says he will change the subject from intelligent design to evolution.
Hi PZ,
Please don’t do this.
There’s a reason Deborah Lipstadt doesn’t “debate” Holocaust deniers and that’s because it gives them a platform they don’t deserve.
Granted, debate can, and is, a useful public communication technique when you’re debating someone serious, but RAY FUCKING COMFORT!?!one11eleven!!! The man is a freaking loon. I understand the amusement of whack-a-loon or if it were someone serious, with something useful, new or intellectual to contribute, then perhaps it could be worth your efforts. But Ray Comfort? It’s like watching Muhammed Ali go into the ring against a paraplegic five year old girl with chronic asthma.
Don’t debase yourself! Remember the comment of Dawkins’ friend when asked to debate a creationist: “That would look great on your CV…”
Cheers
Louis
Go PZ! You should cream him in 7 mins plus or minus 421 secs.
Figures, I work the following night so I shouldn’t really listen to this live… on top of that, I can’t play “name that logical fallacy” with booze.
Granted, with Ray Comfort, that’s a pretty dangerous game.
Oh, how lazy is that? Ray Comfort?!
The Friday Sprogs over at “Adventures in Ethics and Science” could debate Ray Comfort.
Why on earth would you do that? Hitting such an easy target doesn’t even boost anyone’s confidence.
When you debate morons like Comfort, you’re only giving him and his fellow theists the impression that they have a valid stancee
Probably a whole lot of it is the money. Without pandering to Death Cultists, Ray would just be a guy in NZ with an uncomplicated low level menial job. Maybe a janitor or gardener or something.
Same thing with Ken Ham. He was just a not very competent science teacher in a school somewhere in Queensland, Australia. Now he gets paid 175,000 bucks a year in the USA to run a pseudoscience propaganda effort. I’m sure his expense account is at least that much.
Neither really works at anything productive or difficult.. How hard is it to babble platitudes and centuries old lies to a willing audience of religious fanatics who will believe anything as long as it is accompanied with anti-gay and anti-modern world rhetoric? Getting paid to hate, lie, and babble. In the words of another group of Antipodeans, “That ain’t working, that is the way you do it.” Dire Straits.
Be alert for a ploy and react accordingly. The goal could be nothing more than to make you look incompetent in public. Human oppinion rarely works based on reason and logic. If the listeners ‘like you’, they will believe your idea. If they ‘don’t like you’, they won’t. Halo effect. Cameron probably knows this. Preaching, manipulating emotions and human traits is what he does for a living. He could lose the argument completely from a rational standpoint, but still win it in the court of public opinion.
“Have you ever lied?”
Of course, haven’t you?
“What does that make you?”
A kind and considerate person.
There now, wasn’t that easy? This correct answer forces one to consider the beneficial value of prevaricating when the situation requires it. Such as not upsetting an Alzheimer’s sufferer. Such as admiring gifts you really hate. Such as avoiding confrontation with idiots. Such as not admitting your spouse looks fat in that dress. These literalists naturally cannot see the use of situational ethics and pretend to insist on absolutes. It just shows how crazy they really are.
But wont the fact that a real scientist is willing to “debate” him just make Ray Comfort’s moronic blathering seem less stupid? … Never mind, there is nothing anyone can do that would make him seem reasonable, have fun PZ, for a funny review of some of Ray’s greatest hits you should check out Happy Jihad’s House of Pancakes.
#61,
Boy, that’s some weapons-grade fractal nitro-stupid right there.
I propose the Comfort (Ct) as the SI unit of stupidity. Clearly, like a Farad or a Coulomb, it is an enormous unit. Even setting your own head on fire is only about 1 µCt.
Ask him why “God” hates children.
Exposing young minds to zombie blood cults should be a crime.
Here’s the way Christians treat children…
Remember, these groups do not pay taxes and they want children to be taught this in public schools!
Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha… ..hahahahahaha…he heh heh *sigh*
Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha… (etc)
Does the original banana stock still exist? The small, seeded, tough variety? If so, you should try to get one, bring it, and ask Comfort to explain how, after the fall, it got better.
Just a comment and a suggestion. In every debate that I have ever watched, regardless of who it is that is defending ID, they spend 99% of their time attacking evolution and 1% defending ID, using the bible as evidence.
I recommend that PZ begins his debate with a statement such as:
” This debate is about Intelligent Design, not evolution. If the theory of evolution were to be disproven tomorrow it would not lend creedence to the idea of ID, as every theory must stand or fall by it’s own merit. Therefore, we will only be discussing the merits and failings of ID in this debate, we need not mention evolution. OK Ray, what emperical evidence can you provide to support your assertions? What possible experiment may be fashioned that could falsify your theory?
Comedy gold.
PZ,
You had better brush up on your banana knowledge. Ray Comfort’s logic is….. asstounding.
Whoop him good!
What’s AM?
hey wait a minute! is that a prayer in your blog post?
I still think PZ’s focus has to be on the moderator and insist that Ray doesn’t get to take this any damn where he wants.
To defeat Ray Comfort in a debate is easy.
To make Ray Comfort understand he’s been defeated is not.
LA #266, PZ doesn’t need to make RC understand he was defeated (although that would be a bonus), he just need to make the listeners understand that RC is a flaming twit who should be ignored. I think PZ has a good grasp of the situation.
To paraphrase the old show biz saying, “break a twit” PZ.
Casey Luskin awardee said-Opening statement Myers-“Evolution is Bullshit. Now Banana, tell the good folks how we got here.” Answer from Bananarama- “Um, well, uhm, missing links won’t work; there goes crockaduck’s and whaleamoo’s; Um, um can’t talk about that Thermo thingy, there goes my good shit about wiggly things to Man; Oh, yeah Oh yeah, that self flagellation stuff from that sciencie guy Behehe; shit,I can’t use that ,he’s a fuckin astrologist. Um, well uh, well fuck you Myers; Once upon a time, there was a void…” Now you gotum by the balls-Do not squeeze gently.
Having a scientific debate with Comfort is kinda like hunting cows with a nuclear weapon.
Oi there Mr.Myers .
I did not read all the 269 comments ,
but iff you going to talk about intelligent design, maybe you can help us all with the following question. Maybe the radio host know it!!!
————————————————————-
Why do they always look from religious points of view to inteligent design? As in that God was the man with that plan?
..i never hear that intelligent aliens could have designed us.. and then for me the story sounds a lot more likely then iff the God version..
————————————————————-
Greeting from the NL
Dear Someone else…
It cannot be aliens as ID is based on a claim that complexity cannot arise without a designer. This means, even if we humans were designed by aliens, it only removes the designer by one. In other words, the aliens are also complex, so this would means they too need a designer by the base premise given by ID.
Get it?
The problem with this is that God, being able to create all of creation, would be the most complex thing of all, yet ID people do not see this as a problem, as they simply ignore it, as “everyone knows God is the exception”
Thank you for taking this task on, PZ. Dawkins makes it a matter of policy not to debate creationists, and I’m sure he has valid reasons to take this position. But somebody has to debate them, not from any hope of changing their minds but because there is an audience to play to, among whom are people who are honestly ignorant and honestly undecided. Some of those people might be young people with an aptitude for science. So thanks. Now, I have only taken a superficial look at the preceding comments, but I see there are many who would give you advice. Forgive me for piling on, but my advice would be to keep in mind and force Comfort to keep in mind that Hitler and Stalin and Social Darwinism and the social effects (if any) of spreading atheism and all of the rest of the smoke and fog have absolutely nothing to do with the physical evidence for evolution. Make him stick to the point. Best wishes.
#260
HEY! Where do you get off demanding that the guy with the extraordinary claims provide evidence? You’re one of them elitists, ain’tcha?
PZ,
Can you really have a battle of wits with an unarmed man?
Oh my FSM! This is going to be great. Great and pathetic.
PZ,
Go in, go hard, and take no prisoners.
Show him up for the fool that he is.
But, do it in the nicest way possible. : )
Do, please remind him (them) if they bring up the banana garbage, that wild bananas are almost nothing like the bananas of today. Today’s bananas are the cavendish, a cultivar — they are a product of human agricultural selective breeding.
The version of banana’s that would be “God given” are nothing like the items he describes. You can do some research on it, and I am certain that banana-ologists will be happy to elaborate. But modern food banana’s and most cultivars are sterile (I think it’s parthenogenic… ) because people hate eating seeds.
Martha @#179:
Please be advised that under the Geneva Conventions, a durian is classified both as a:
i. Morningstar and
ii. biological/ chemical weapon of mass distraction.
As such, it is a weapon of a cruel and unusual nature and is banned by all civilised nations.
I have proof. When was the last time a country attacked another with a barrage of durians?
Tagline:
“PZ boots Slee-Z back to NZ”
Apologies to all you Kiwis out there, I have nothing but love for you all.
I think this will be far less the rational debate Myers might have with Dennet, or Chomsky might have with Dawkins. Those would be debates, adding greatly to human knowledge in themselves. What Myers is doing with Comfort is what a cat does with a mouse. Not only is Myers going to enjoy roughing up Comfort’s deluded mind, but I don’t think Myers can help himself. Ray Comfort Debate? (ears perked, tail twitching… …POUNCE!)
My point? Let’s not use the word “debate” here. Myers is going to attempt to educate Comfort, not debate him. Comfort is going to try to twist Myers’s own words into a confusing mess that can please the foolish flock, not debate Myers.
Man, you are so screwed. Comfort has some of the best arguments on the plan… I mean, disc!
Could you please inform comfort that another New Zealand Ray would appreciate it if Comfort changes his first name as he does the rest of us Rays a great disservice. Also if he could have his NZ citizenship revoked as well.
#282
Raylian bigot!
I can haz tax exemshin nao plz?
Baby stroller, meet freight train. This’ll be good.
ID is of course only creationism dressed up in a labcoat. Beyond that IDiots welcomes old time creationists as part of ‘the big tent’ strategy.
Here’s a Barbara Forrest explaining the ‘big tent’ in the kitzmiller v Dover trial:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day6pm.html
You could debate him with one brain lobe tied behind your back. He’s seriously fundaloony.
An example for PZ!
We recognise paintings (& watches) as designed not because they are complicated but be cause we know what humans do.
A peice of dowling is a wooden rod that can be completely described by:
1)length
2)diameter, and
3)composition (wood)
Its not complicated but we recognised an 18″long peice of 1/2″ diameter wood as designed because we know what humans do!
jmsr
Ray Comfort would not be where he is now unless he is an accomplished public speaker so people underestimate him at their peril.
My guess: he will try something along the lines of the Gish Gallop: throw out so many points that is impossible to answer any of them in detail, making it sound like there are no answers.
My prediction: whichever way it goes, Comfort will claim victory.
As a good church-going teenager in Christchurch, New Zealand some three-decades ago, Ray Comfort was a regular fixture in our fair city. He’d preach daily in Cathedral Square and inevitably come a poor second to the wit and wisdom of the city’s Wizard. In between times he’d hand out cheap pamphlets featuring scurrilously bad cartoons, and harangue young Christians hoping to hook up, about us all being on ‘a battleship stationed at the gates of hell’. I owe a good portion of my atheism to Ray, for which I thank him (you might like to pass that on when you’re chatting PZ). At the same time, he was a fixture in the background of some great times, and once or twice I idly wondered what happened to that little Energiser Bunny for Jesus. Imagine my surprise to discover he’d gone on to larger and loonier things, smackin’ his monkey for God in the good ol’ US of A. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’m glad he’s still around (his cliches sound as destructive and glib as ever) so I’ll just say that I’m glad you’re taking care of him. Of course this has scuttled New Zealand’s ambition for a free-trade agreement with the US. What nation in its right mind would offer trade concessions to the country that exported Ray Comfort to it?
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again:
BRING AN AIRHORN AND BLAST HIM EVERYTIME HE OUTRIGHT LIES. or something a little more subtle like a bell, “blah blah blah BANANA (ding) blah blah blah…”
It will save you form the inevitable gish gallop, rather than having to fisk his arguments, you’ll be able to present your own “Every time you heard this:(ding) was a lie. Now, on to more interesting things…”
Its a shame I have to be working while this is on, I’ll need to figure out how to record it. You kicking Ray comfort’s ass (or more, removing his head from it breifly) is somehting I would love to witness. When are they pitting you against Kent Hovind?
That’s funny… I was just talking about him: http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/dear-ray-comfort/
Nice one, Randy.
I assume this will be 10:00 a.m. local (central) time? Is it going to be streamed, or will we have to wait for it to show up in the audio archive on the site?
I think you ought to hold up his stupid crockoduck picture and say “This is an example of what evolution does NOT predict. Anyone who says it does is lying.” Then show an example of what it does predict, like Tiktalik. Show as many examples as possible of what a liar Comfort is.
I’ve got a countdown to battle going over at:
http://www.goingchurching.com/?p=115
Anyone who wants to start an official drinking game, or toast-per-hour, I think it’s warranted!