It’s part of an article about an atheist billboard for the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason, which sounds great. Alas, the Inquirer marred it with a stupid internet poll that asks, “Do you believe in God?” Haven’t they learned yet that these things are easily skewed? Go show them that atheists can be organized, too.
Take a look at the comments while you’re there, too — I like the one that says, “If this guy ever gets diagnosed with terminal cancer I guarantee he takes that billboard down so fast your head will spin.” It’s an admission that religion is built on fear.
Sounds like O’Lielly’s bifuracted drivel.
“If this guy ever gets diagnosed with terminal cancer I guarantee he takes that billboard down so fast your head will spin.”
Funny, I’ve always thought that the sloppiness of biology (including but not limited to our 1-in-3 penchant to develop cancer) is one of the best arguments against God…
..well, against any God that is supposed to be both good and competent.
The article states:
“Think of it as a sign of the times.”
Oh, I really really hope so.
:)
Yes 685 (58.1%)
No 350 (29.7%)
Not sure 143 (12.1%)
This should be easy.
Wow. Just refreshed, and “No” is up to about 37%.
It’s great to watch internet polls in the process of getting PZed.
Yes: 702 (57.4%)
No: 375 (30.6%)
Not sure: 147 (12.0%)
I’ve been an atheist for over 14 years.
6 years ago I was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma and had to go through the Chemo/Radiotherapy routine. It definitely took its toll on me but never did I turn to religion.
As I recall I spent those eight months catching up on Sade and William Burroughs. Hardly religious by my estimate.
This August I will be cured and for that I thank the doctors, nurses and hospital staff too numerous to name.
Woo! Finally, something that happens in my state :)
I like the picture, shifting the frequent connotations of “God being up there” to the emptiness that’s really there.
Do non-believers really join up like they hope to do, though?
Finding that out will be the most important part of the billboard and article.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Stupid poll. Can’t answer.
It doesn’t exist. A No answer implies that it exists.
I hear and obey!
I take that back, it is in PA
That’s a lot of money to spend on a billboard! There’s another article listed in Dawkins news list from the Huffington Post about the serious decline of the evanglicals. Maybe we’re finally getting somewhere with these toads. (voted No)
Don’t over-think it kryptonic. Sometimes you have to play by the established rules, as incomplete as they may be.
No just overtook yes!
My favourite commenter so far is mikehuckabee2012, who begins with “Scientists can’t explain how everything first started” and then jumps from that to “there HAS to be a supreme being”.
It’s the old problem with the word belief, a word we use in two distinct senses. If I ask, “When did you stop believing in Santa Claus?” we naturally parse the question as asking, “When did you no longer think that Santa Claus exists?” On the other hand, if we follow the song and ask, “Do you believe in rock and roll?” we’re talking about whether we think rock is a good thing, a positive influence, a reason to keep going.
Thus, we have Stephen Colbert’s joke: “I believe in America. I believe it exists.”
The problem comes when atheists say, “I don’t believe in God,” meaning it in the sense of not believing in Santa, and theists trapped by their preconceptions hear that we hate God, after which they accuse us of killing Christmas.
Yes: 42%
No: 48%
Maybe: 10%
We’ve still got a way to go!
I hear what you’re saying Alex. I have to admit I had fun with earlier PZ-endorsed poll crashings even though I think online polls are really worthless.
For J:
Well-designed billboard.
47% Y
41% N
if I recall correctly.
Looking at the comments of the article:
——————————————–
Posted by Natural_lady 10:36 AM, 06/05/2008
Lord – Please pardon their ignorance. Amen
——————————————–
Wow. Just… WOW.
“No” is at 51%, “Yes” somewhere in the 30s.
Yes 793 (39.0%)
No 1054 (51.9%)
Not sure 185 (9.1%)
I get a laugh out of how every fifth or sixth commenter throws up a random quote from the Wholly Babble and seems to think that it’s a big “so there” moment that is going to explain it all to us depressed, dysfunctional people in a blinding burst of Divan light! How anybody that stupid can be overbearingly pompous about it will never cease to amaze me. It’s no wonder this country is unraveling the way it is, this idiot notion of the supernatural poisons whatever well of logic and intellect may exist in believers and makes it impossible for them to have coherent and non-contradictory understandings of the world. The monumental lack of knowledge these folks display is the most visible symptom of the decay and senescence of the United States. I’m so disgusted with the prevalence of superstition in society that I seldom associate with people who believe that nonsense any more and I’m infinitely happier for it.
Yes: 815 (36.1%)
No: 1250 (55.4%)
Not sure: 191 (8.5%)
Beat me to it SC.
Blake at #16 makes an excellent point. Most christian apologetics are aimed at merely making someone believe that god exists, as if simply by doing so they will immediately kowtow to said god and be christian. It’s hogwash. If some dumbass theist actually managed to prove to me that their god exists, I STILL wouldn’t worship it, as it’s proven that its nature (as described in the bible) is fundamentally UNWORTHY of worship.
And if I supposedly ‘burn in hell’ for that – so what? I wouldn’t believe that either. He lied about the fruit of the tree killing us, so I bet he’s lying about hell too. (Besides, the standard catholic line, the party of my youth, says that hell is merely ‘the absence of god’, and that sounds like a good thing to me! )
Anyway, I voted for No, of course. What I want to know is who on earth would vote “I don’t know.”. You don’t KNOW whether you believe in god or not? Talk about a lack of self-awareness….
Cool. I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve probably driven by that billboard a half-dozen times since it went up, and I never noticed it.
Personally, as a man of the scientific method,I wouldn’t be able to say yeah or neigh, as I’d need solid scientific evidence on either side. A Christian God, well no, but a power that I cannot explain, possibly. Seems like a useless poll to me. Science can only disprove theory, and I don’t consider modern religion a theory, due to lack of any evidence, but modern religion is way off of what a “God” could be. I’m going back to Greek polytheism, as it has as much credibility as anything else, and I love my god of wine! (ohh and the newly created god of beer pong)
READER FEEDBACK
Do you believe in God?
Yes
845 (32.5%)
No
1553 (59.8%)
Not sure
‘Not sure’ is kind of baffling. Don’t people KNOW whether or not they believe in a god?
Re: The terminal cancer remark. I’d consult an oncologist and a good estate lawyer long before I’d worry about Zeus.
You’re missing the most important part of the article… the picture of Mr. Wade! I want to be that healthy when I’m 70.
Atheism does a body good.
This is my favourite quote after a quick read through, this one caused me to spray beer all over the keyboard:
‘you don’t believe in god, then don’t believe in god. but do you really need to flaunt your atheism and try to recruit people?’
jesus.h……he he he…Who says irony is dead?
I can’t decide whether this comment is sarcasm or not. I want to believe that it is, I really, really do, but then it’s too well done:
“This is an absolute disgrace! I can’t believe that more people are not outraged by this sign? We should not be catering to the 7% of society that don’t believe in God. Also,we should not be forced for having to explain to our young children the beliefs of God everytime we ride down I – 95. We need to put pressure on the city and force them to remove this sign. If people agree with Mr.Rade, then they can go to his website, otherwise leave God’s children out of it. AMEN!”
I was talking about religion to a devoted Catholic I work with the other day. At one point she asked me what would happen if my wife or some other loved one had something really really terrible happen to them. The implication was that at that point I’d turn to God. And like the comment, is a clear sign that religion isn’t built on reason, but on fear or despair or [insert bad thing here].
Frankly, the question just confused me. Why would I start believing in a god just because something terrible happened to my loved ones? Seems to me that that’s a pretty compelling reason not to believe in a loving god.
After thinking about it a bit, I’m of the opinion that most theists actually think that atheists secretly believe in a god, and we’re just being difficult. They really think it’ll just take some terrible trauma to convert us.
Which is a little scary, especially if they start trying to use trauma as an evangelical tool.
Absolutely. But that same guy will probably not even understand your point. “God loves you” he’ll say. This is precisely the thing that I find the most unbelievable about religion, a god who loves you at the condition that you believe he exists and worship him, otherwise fear him, no honest doubt allowed.
I am not an atheist, but I respect that choice. Despite the fact that there is no evidence for it, I still think it is a strong possibility that our universe was ounce created by a naturally evolved super-species (God) who may still be observing us. This might be our own future, or that of an other more advanced species on an other planet. But in any case, I’m quite certain, that if that God exists, he values much more our use of reason and a honest doubt than death bed conversions. It’s really time we grow up, as a species, from our early childhood adoration/fear stage of a parent god, to our adult stage.
In the end, I’m not so sure it really matters if this God exists, maybe only as a goal to set for ourselves ?
Now 62.7% say no (1,822). Apparently you can vote multiple times. I think I’m up to 8. I would vote “no” for each god I don’t believe in, but who has that much spare time?
#33 unicow , wht was the inquisition but using something really taumatic to get people to turn to god? They’ve already been using it for centuries.
Funny thing is unicow, why did this person, after understanding that you are an atheist begin fantasising about terrible things happening to your loved ones? That kind of rot distubs me and I see that ghoulish bloodthirsty reaction all to often.
negentropyeater, that idea come up now and again in literature, especially of the sci-fi kind (or maybe that’s my reading bias.)
Question is, if *somehow* we discovered that to be true, would you want to worship such a species, or rather learn more about them? How would different people treat it? Would the fundies call them gods or blasphemers?
Not the most practical line of thought, but I think it’s fun.
Unfortunately, most Christians don’t have a problem with that. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”
“If this guy ever gets diagnosed with terminal cancer I guarantee he takes that billboard down so fast your head will spin.”
Well, probably not. But the PEW survey on religion in the US seems to indicate that most athiests change their mind as death looms closer: 3% of the US population below 30 is athiest, only 1% of the US population above 70 is (see p37).
So…2/3 of you reading this post will convert to something else before you die…I suggest you get a head start and choose animism now :)
(*There’s another possible interpretation of the data, but I won’t be responsible for putting more ammo in the fundies’ dumb-idea gun. That clip is already full.)
“If this guy ever gets diagnosed with terminal cancer I guarantee he takes that billboard down so fast your head will spin.” For the record, I had a friend who got terminal cancer. She was scared, she was angry, she was discouraged — but as far as I know, she never considered reverting to theism (she was raised Catholic). It was certainly not a topic I remember discussing in the many late-night conversations we had during her illness.
Eric,
I can’t tell where in that comment you’re joking. You know that’s not a reasonable interpretation of those data, right?
Terminal cancer made me believe in god, once. When they buried my son, I felt that way. It lasted about five seconds.
32% Y
67% N
They did a good job on that billboard.
Eric,
There’s another interpretation that matches up with your data:
that the older people have ALWAYS been at the 1% mark, and that the 3% is not due to youth, but due to growing up in a different era.
“Well, probably not. But the PEW survey on religion in the US seems to indicate that most athiests change their mind as death looms closer: 3% of the US population below 30 is athiest, only 1% of the US population above 70 is (see p37).”
The data does NOT support your conclusion. It would, if the SAME people were followed throughout there life, and belief in a god increased between 30 and 70. However you cannot say that using this data. The current over 70’s may have had a increased belief in god when they were under 30. Unless and until you correct for that you conclusion is false.
If they know their Bible and believe it, then they do think that atheists do believe in God, and are simply denying it…
Romans 1:19,20 “…since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
They do this too. (At least the one’s who’ve got building the church membership down to a science.) They often do effectively capitalize on people’s emotional vulnerability through chaplains in hospitals, free marriage counseling, etc.
@ #36
Good point. Certainly the inquisition fits the trauma=belief in god mold. But that approach has fallen out of favor in modern times (I think).
@ #37
I think it may have been a little more innocent than that in this case. Sure, it’s still ghoulish. But the last time I was in a church (about 6 months ago) it was because I was attending the funeral mass for her husband who had committed suicide after being diagnosed with cancer. Arguably her belief did help her cope in some way. So I’m not too concerned with that element in this case. It certainly does spring up in a lot of other cases where the connection isn’t so obvious though.
This is also a person who upon further questioning admitted that her belief has nothing to do with reason, and is based solely on faith and needing to know that “there’s someone more powerful in charge.”
Probably not a person that’s going to be swayed by a rational argument. Interesting to talk to on some level, but the chances of us ever seeing eye to eye (on pretty much anything, actually) are virtually nil.
Funnily enough I’ve driven past that billboard and I’d always assumed that phillyCOR was a fundamentalist church.
Blake Stacey #16 wrote:
This becomes particularly clear when it comes to the paranormal. Christians will often seem to agree with rational skeptics: they “don’t believe” in astrology, psychic powers, precognition, reiki, and so forth. But just a little probing shows that they don’t mean what we mean. They don’t think those things are false, illusionary, and don’t really work.
No, they mean they don’t believe in using such methods, for these powers do not come from God. It’s like someone saying they “don’t believe in having the waitstaff sing happy birthday in restaurants.” They’re expressing distaste, a desire to stop it from going on.
unicow #33 wrote:
That’s one reason I hesitate to go to those businesses which proudly display a little Christian fish. They might discover I’m an atheist. Do I really want someone who believes that “it’ll just take some terrible trauma to convert me” working on my brakes?
After thinking about it a bit, I’m of the opinion that most theists actually think that atheists secretly believe in a god, and we’re just being difficult. They really think it’ll just take some terrible trauma to convert us.
But of course. Doesn’t everyone secretly want to be a child again with an all-knowing all-caring parent to make the boogey man go away? I’m not being sarcastic, I do think everyone does, it is just that adults realize it is just fantasy and don’t delude themselves that there really is such a “parent” for everyone.
Just bringing this up incase anyone missed it. If you view the results page there is another poll at the bottom left. Topic is “What subject would you not like discussed at work”. Religion is slightly ahead of Politics at the moment.
God is losing by 66% to 27% right now (with the rest undecided).
It would be nice if results like this would end stupid Internet polls (but I don’t think it will).
Kent Brockman: Of course, this is just a [Web] poll, which is not legally-binding, unless Proposition 304 passes, and we all pray it will.
@ #46 wonderer
I’d never seen that verse before. Nicely done.
On the other hand, I’ve certainly had times where I thought certain theists can’t possibly really believe the bullshit they’re saying.
I can’t tell whether accepting the sincerity of their belief makes me more or less depressed about it though.
I believe we need a new term…PZwnd. =)
I actually see that billboard on a regular basis (my husband does more than me, as he commutes past it every day) and was glad to see that someone was willing to publicize to Philadelphia that we are here and we’re not going anywhere. I’m also glad that the billboard is tasteful; not making atheists look scary or imposing, as so many foolish individuals think we are.
I can’t say that a traumatic incident is necessarily enough to convert someone to theism. At least not an educated person. Everyone in my immediate family is atheist. We’ve all been through traumatic events (loss of loved ones, disease, etc) throughout our lives and none of us have ever wavered in our non-belief of a higher being.
To SC (#40), Pat (#44), and Matt (#45),
The post was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek – thus the comment about converting to animism now. But only half joking because I think the statistics are interesting even if we can’t say why the situation is what it is.
But, for the record: I agree, the only thing you can really say about the Pew results is that a greater % of current under-30’s are atheist compared to over-70’s. Old-age conversion is one possible explanation but there are many other reasonable explanations, such as (for example) new growth in athiesm among young folk, or a bias in older atheists towards not answering the survey. Men are disproportionally represented in athiests, too (about 60% of the total), which explains a small part of it as men aren’t 50% of the over-70 category.
A less reasonable explanation is that only the good die young (<-joke).
@ #53 unicow
Tell me about it. I do a lot of butting heads on an obscure little religious issues forum. One of the posters there is a really nice guy who really tries to be open-minded, but he uses that verse from Romans to justify to himself God’s morality in condemning people to hell. By convincing himself that only people who consciously and deliberately reject a God they know that they should worship, he rationalizes the problem of theodicy.
I’d probably find such twisting of a person’s thinking surprising, if I hadn’t once had that sort of thinking myself. It can be pretty frustrating and depressing to deal with.
“This is an absolute disgrace! I can’t believe that more people are not outraged by this sign?”
See what we mean when we say that no matter how nice we are about atheism, people will still piss and moan about it?
On one hand, it’s nice that this billboard is getting attention. On the other hand, it really shouldn’t be getting any more attention than any of the much more undiplomatic Christian billboards get (in a more perfect world, I mean). And the way they describe the guy in the article, sheesh. “He’s not a baby-eating devil!” I mean, really, are we still that much a novelty?
unicow @ #33:
My take on it is that they believe atheists are being atheists as a kind of adolescent rebellion, akin to a fifteen-year-old telling his parents, “I hate you!” because they won’t let him stay out until 3:00 am with a group of dubious-looking twentysomethings.
That is, the believers take it as a precondition that some god or other exists, so the only explanation for an atheist’s behavior is that we hate ‘god’, or are rebelling against ‘him’, or whatever.
As for the question itself — it’s poorly worded. Rather than asking, “Do you believe in God”, the question should be, “Does a god of some sort or other exist?” Then, the yes/no/agnostic choices are more rational.
(And to paraphrase Dawkins, if the question had been, “Do you believe Shiva, the Creator/Sustainer/Destroyer, exists?” the ‘no’ votes would be damn near 100%. But godtards don’t usually think about things like that, because it makes them very uncomfortable.)
That the bad wording is as it is suggests quite a lot about the mindset of the creators of the poll and the question — as well as the part of the country this is all happening in.
Sure, a lot of people turn to religion when they’re seriously ill. Some other people turn to psychics and voodoo. What are we to make of this? “Anything you turn to in desperation is true and good — as long as it’s God.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it every time I see that question. When you see or hear “Do you believe in god?” interpret it in your mind as “Do you believe in MY god?”. Because that’s what the questioner is really asking you.
Most people have beliefs one way or the other, and no two people who say they “believe in god” will agree on every detail when pushed. And that, in a nutshell, is where it all goes almond-shaped (well you can’t get pears in nutshells can you?)
Anyway – where was I? Oh yes, the question should really be “Do you believe in A god?” – to which my honest answer would have to be “I might be persuaded if any evidence comes to light, and I might sometimes consider that there is an intangible higher power of some sort, but I wouldn’t call it god.”
But that response isn’t on the poll, so – no.
I read several of the comments over there and now my head hurts — I think I sprained a frontal lobe. :(
Regarding the notion that religion is driven by fear — isn’t it obvious? Fear of non-existence is the very heart of religious belief, with the idea of a soul of some vital essence inherent to us as individuals carrying on in some form after death pretty much a universal constant across religious beliefs. People believe so they don’t have to face up to their own mortality. Death becomes a mere “transition” from one life to another, a comma rather than a period in the sentence of their life.
— Pheathers
/Or is that a semi-colon?
//I’d’ve suggested colon, as that’s where many believers’ heads are, but that would have just been too silly.
Horse-pheathers – I actually worship the almighty Apostrophe, and abhor its misuse which to me is the most heinous blasphemy.
In the light of this revelation, I bow to your impressive knowledge of the correct use of the word I’d’ve – now that’s class! I haven’t come across that one since relishing the exquisite tang of sha’n’t in Alice in Wonderland.
Lewis Carroll – now there was a writer who understood apostrophes!
#28 – JJ, There is actually an ancient goddess of beer. Her name is Sidori, her statues show her holding a brewing jar. I bought my husband a small statue of her at http://www.sacredsource.com
I find the presentation on the website to be quite offensive. O’Reilly avoided the easy angle of a story about controversy and stuck to writing a short profile of Rade. This wasn’t good enough for someone in the Inquirer office. instant poll and blog-style comments. Whoever set up instant poll and comments wanted to force the controversy angle and set up the reader participation to invite the believers to air their wounded feelings.
The poll asks “Do you believe in God?” The vast majority of Americans believe in some form of deity. That’s not news. It’s also not especially relevant to the article. Relevant would be a question phrased to tease out interest in Rade and his group, such as “Would you attend the meeting of an atheists’ group?” or “Do you know any atheists?” The do you believe in God question adds nothing to the story except to allow the uncomfortable majority to reassure themselves that their numbers are still unassailable enough that the Rades of the world pose no threat to them. Giving comfort to the powerful is a contemptible way for a newspaper to behave.
The comment board is even more obviously slanted toward controversy and bringing out those opposed to Rade and his group. The link reads: “Your thoughts: Does the billboard bother you?” It’s not just set up to provoke controversy, it is clearly encouraging those offended to use the comments to air their feelings of grievance.
It is possible that these sidebars are nothing more than the work of an unimaginative low level editor or webmaster with no ax to grind. But, given the obvious slant, I’m more inclined to see it as a passive aggressive attempt to undermine the message of the article–that atheists are normal people–by encouraging outrage and providing a rallying forum for those hostile to that message of tolerance. But whether it was the result of hostility or incompetence, it is bad journalism.
@ #59 Warren
Yeah, that’s my take on it too. In the eyes of many theists we’re not people who’ve examined the “evidence” for a god and rejected it, we’re just rebellious kids who are being oppositional for no good reason. Oddly, this belief seems to persist no matter how well-informed we are.
Seriously, if you presented me with an average atheist and an average Christian and forced me to bet on which one has a better understanding of the Bible, I’d pick the atheist every time.
Then again, if Christians really had a good understanding of the Bible, maybe they wouldn’t be Christians anymore…
Simple question: was this country a better place to live before or after God started being removed from our society?
Sastra 49#
You are so right. I don’t know of any fundamentalists who don’t believe that dabbling in the occult opens the door to satanic and dark forces. (And after movies like “The Exorcist” and “The Omen”, and books like “Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth,” how could they not?)
However, I’ve seen a split among Christians on astrology and other forms of woo. Many actually don’t believe that such things work, but they do believe that “The Devil” is making people believe that they work! And almost all, I think, believe that such things can be made to work with enough supplication to occult forces.
They will get their pet superstition into the mix somehow, someway…
Huckabee in 2012 would surely make the prophecies correct.
And if there’s no God, what’s preventing me from going to rob a bank or kill someone or cheat on my wife if I knew I could get away with it in terms of the law?
Gee, Bob, you’re right, America became a much better place to live when they put “under God” into the pledge of Allegience. And this place was a downright hellhole before they put “In God We Trust” on the dollar bill.
Bob @ 70
I think it’s a rather sad and telling admission on your part that the only reason you behave in any way as a decent citizen, neighbor, or family member is that you are afraid of punishment. Most of us has a sense of self-restraint independent of cowardice.
well judging by the two response to my posts i’ll leave now. it’s clear the people on this board are morons who needs some sort of solice in their ignorance. later geeks.
Is Bob a Poe? Sounds like sarcasm, but maybe the regulars here are too good with their sarcasm that it’s ruined my ability to detect it from someone I don’t read often.
Well, we call it a conscience,; it comes from empathy. It’s a little thing that should light up in your brain before you hurt someone. It screams to you, “Who will this hurt?! Would I want this is happen to me?!” I guess you don’t have one of those.
Mid-typing I see this:
I guess he was just a lame drive-by.
Bob: “And if there’s no God, what’s preventing me from going to rob a bank or kill someone or cheat on my wife if I knew I could get away with it in terms of the law?”
Do you want to do those things, Bob?
Bob @ 73
Wow. Your eloquent logic has converted me.
Haha I love this comment:
“let them post, they will one day know the truth and say “uhmm God your not real”..what a shame that will be…but hey us christians are the weird, freaks that cause all the problems in the world so let the athiests, homosexuals,witches,…and the reason i mention homosexual is because of the post above…anyhow believe philly before it is to late, i am from ohio and i can feel the evil in this city…very consuming..just look at the poll about those who do or do not believe..what a shame!”
“I CAN FEEL THE EVIL COMIN’ FROM THE ONLINE POLL! PRAISE THE LAWD THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YE PHILADELPHIA!!!”
“And if there’s no God, what’s preventing me from going to rob a bank or kill someone or cheat on my wife if I knew I could get away with it in terms of the law?
Posted by: Bob | June 5, 2008 5:08 PM”
If there is a God, why isn’t he preventing all the people who DO rob banks and DO kill people and DO cheat on their spouses?
Q.E.D.
Vic (#26):
I think you’d enjoy reading Ted Chiang’s story “Hell is the Absence of God“.
Bob,
Your line of thinking is exactly why people like you are evil.
Posts 74, 75, and 78 say enough. You’re a creep.
Spinoza #78: I think Bob would probably assert that the ones who do all the bank robbing and spouse cheating stuff are obviously the “evil godless atheists” – except that jail statistics prove otherwise.
I would have put “Don’t believe in a god? You are sane!”
Makes a difference when you use lower case “g” and the indefinite article!
You’re right Elwood. Then I would assert that Bob’s deity either allows evil, or can do nothing about it. Either way, those are not the actions or traits of a god worth worshiping.
One person said they could “feel the evil in Philly” and pointed out the poll results as proof!Ha ha PZ’ed.
Patricia @#64
Ohh I praise the beer god daily, but the beer pong god, well she makes sure I drop the ping pong ball in my opponents cup, that way we all get intoxicated!
I think I need a statue of Sidori myself, or is that worshiping false idols? I guess if it was more of a beer stein statue, then it’d be ok
Yes 1355 (23.4%)
No 4068 (70.3%)
Not sure 360 (6.2%)
Total votes = 5783
The ol’ “and if there’s no God, what’s preventing me from going to rob a bank or kill someone or cheat on my wife if I knew I could get away with it in terms of the law?” question strikes me as disingenuous as best, and incredibly stupid at worst.
It’s stupid, because one need only think for about 6.8 µs before coming up with situations in which a person might show love or kindness without consulting the nearest bible to see if it’s appropriate. For instance, I doubt there’s an honest Christian alive who, at the birth of their first child, leaned down and kissed their newborn baby only because they were afraid of God’s eternal judgement.
It’s disingenuous, because most of them couldn’t really believe the argument themselves or they wouldn’t ask it of atheists (unless they’re really stupid): As an ‘Out’ atheist, I’ve had people (my Mor
mon coworker is one) ask that very question to my face. Usually, I respond with something along the lines of, “Well, you’ve convinced me. Now hand over your wallet before I stab you in the fucking face, asshole.” Joking aside, if you really believed someone was refraining from robbing/raping/killing you for the flimsiest of reasons, would you then try to convince them they really had no reason not to? It would be like meeting an ex-con who you knew had been imprisoned for violent assault but claimed to be rehabilitated, and then saying to them, “You’re not really rehabilitated. No, I bet you want to curb stomp me right now. Well, what’s stopping you? *poke* C’mon, I know you wanna! *poke, poke* C’mon!” Again, makes sense only if you’re extremely stupid.Anyways, to sum up: anybody wanna buy a slightly used wallet? Cheap; in good condition; previous owner was a Mor
mon who only opened it up to tithe.You guys and gals have been busy ! :-
YES 1344 (23.6%)
NO 3989 (70.1%)
Wheeeee !
Boob, er, Bob; You don’t rob a bank because your god tells you not to, or is it because you know it’s wrong and will be in prison when caught? Come on, get this crap out of your skull and realize that there is no god who prevents bank robberies, murders, molestations by priests, deformities, insanity, and all the other bullshit you will and not ascribe to your imaginary god. Let’s see this god of yours you rely on so insanely to account for your awful accomodating bullshit!
Bob,
A question back at ya: if fear of punishment from an eternal caretaker is the only thing stopping the god gang from rape, robbery and pillage, why is it that atheists lead peaceful, respectful, law-abiding lives?
Further question: why is deeply religious USA worse, by almost every measure of societal health (teenage pregnancy, STDs, murder, prison population, etc. – http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html), than deeply atheistic Sweden?
I hope you can shed some light on these anomalies.
[sigh] that URL was FUBARed by the comment system – http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
David @ 90
“…why is deeply religious USA worse…”
Easy one. Because we took god out of our schools.
Yes 1398 (23.0%)
No 4314 (70.9%)
Not sure 376 (6.2%)
I have no respect for people who are “Not sure”. People who can’t make a decision are more worthless than the Magic Man believers.
“Maybe there’s a sky fairy, or maybe there’s not a sky fairy” is just as idiotic as “I believe in a sky fairy”.
This interestingly made it it on Fox News;
(sorry if the link includes a commercial)
http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=1164811&referralPlaylistId=949437d0db05ed5f5b9954dc049d70b0c12f2749
Of course, they can’t interview the guy who put the billboard or an atheist, but this wingnut Peter Sprigg from the “family research council” http://www.frc.org/mission-statement who claims that atheists are becoming particularly aggressive and secularists are promoting an atheist agenda, it’s always the same reverse culpability theme of atheism persecuting religion ! Absolute madness.
There was a poll yesterday on Yahoo! Canada asking the same questions, only there were two options: yes or no.
A survey shows that 23% polled said that they do not believe in a god.
Dang HTML.
Survey story
No: 4792 (71.7 %); Yes: 1478 (22.1 %); Not sure: 414 (6.2 %).
Are you capable of believing without evidence? If not, you should answer “no”, because the question is not “is there a god”, it’s “do you believe in God”.
Comment 35 made me laugh out loud, and I mean loud.
Who’d’a’ thunk it.
America is a strange place.
I thought Bob looked familiar:
PlanetKiller, AKA “James”, “Bob”…
Insipidity, stupidity, slagging, morphing…
Automatically Junked…
Creationist with a chip on his shoulder. Final straw: showing up on my blog to tell me to leave. That’s just too stupid to bear.
Wow, yeaahhhh…
PS: Can we give Brownian another Molly?
Pleeeeeease?
Is Bob the planet killer? Dump him on Io; maybe he can find his god there.
Blake – thanks for the suggestion.
As for Bob, while most are savaging him on the amorality front, I’m surprised nobody jumped on him for his first bullshit intrusion:
Has he seen how many churches there are in the country? Christian book stores? Christian TV channels, radio stations? For being ‘removed’ from society, the christian god is quite, um, prevalent…
Wow negentropyeater,
The way they filmed that segment was like he was ripping off old, dying widowers. They filmed like he was a scum bag. Ridiculous.
I’m rather annoyed by the condescending strawman first comment:
It is the very first comment and there is *no* mention in the article about discussion that it should be taken down. The whole think comes as a staged postering to appear fair-minded when one is nothing of the sort.
Imagine an article about working women meeting once a week and the very first comment was “Well, there’s no law against women working so I don’t think they should be arrested. They don’t change how I feel about the family. Let’s not be turn into backwards bigots and start calling them witches, and lesbians, and calling the police on them.”
*Sheesh*
Kinda reminds me about the “I believe” liscence plates in South Carolina. I heard a story on NPR yesterday and one person said of the initiators of the plate “We had them go through the same precedure every-one else had to” (“every-one else” being the sponsers of NASCAR, and Folkdancing Societies, or any of the scores of other license-plate sponsers). Well, duh! I certaninly *hope* you did. Is there any reason you’d give them *prefered* treatment?
Bob:
Simple question: was this country a better place to live before or after God started being removed from our society?
Definately after. Before 1787, there was no electricity. Running water was scarce. Women couldn’t vote. Slavery was legal in many states. Medical science was darned primative compared to what it is now. No internet and the quality DVDs? Forget about it.
On the other hand, I think the environment was better. And the the drinking water was a lot cleaner for those who had a fresh source (but not for the city dwellers who frequently had to deal with typhoid outbreaks; it’s much better now for them!)
Bob asked:
“Simple question: was this country a better place to live before or after God started being removed from our society?”
‘How long before’ are you asking about Bob? Let me think….
There was slavery, women were oppressed and didn’t get to vote, there was higher a general mortality rate across the entire population, native americans were brutally destroyed to make way for the white invaders, many children were lucky to get even a grade 5 education, blacks were segregated and actively discriminated against, lynchings were not uncommon…
I’m sure I can think of many other examples of how your country was a WORSE place to live back in ‘the good old days’, but those are just some for starters.
Is it compulsory to be stupid in order to be religious, or do people actually get to choose?
Wooz, I have the creepiest feeling that “dave” followed us here from Horne’s blog… *smirk*
It’s interesting how “Bob” – possibly an alias of Patience Killer – has shown up within 24 hours of The Kenny’s banning.
Maybe I’m just being paranoid…
Doesn’t everyone secretly want to be a child again with an all-knowing all-caring parent to make the boogey man go away?
If so, that description would rule out most of the gods I know about, especially the Christian one.
All-knowing–OK, that fits.
But all-caring? You’ve got to be kidding!
He smites people all the time for being as He made them and acting in ways He foresees. He kills the innocent as well as the evil. He kills, tortures, sickens, and maims many thousands every year.
He destroys homes by fire, wind, rain, blizzards, floods, earthquakes, mudslides, tsunamis, and volcanoes.
And, he even kills cute little baby bunnies. :-(
I think God is much, much scarier than the boogey man.
DingoDave,
I was making a joke by refering to 1787 (the year we adopted the Constitution and its famous first ammendment) as the year “God started being removed from our society”.
We can’t answer this question if we don’t know when Bob thinks “God started being removed from our society”. I have a feeling he assumes that is is utterly obvious that God is being removed and secularism is creeping in and Jesus is disappearing from Television and family prayers are drying up and church’s are spouting diversity so he shouldn’t have to tell us when “God started being removed from our society”.
I imagine he places it sometime after the start of World War II and sometime before Jimmy Carter. I imagine he views the world then as happy, innocent, and prosperous and with well-behaved teenagers and today as crime-ridden, poverty stricken, violent, drug-infested, sorrowful and meaningless and thinks such a condition is obvious to all.
I, of course, do not believe that God *ever* “started being removed from our society”. I think we are just becoming less and isolated and more aware of what other people may believe and are slightly startled to find our next door neighbor and folks in the village over *don’t* believe in the exact same things and in the exact same way we do.
In fact, if anything God is becoming more prevalent in our society in that we are invoking him into our pledge of allegience, we’ve changed the countries motto from the identifying E Pluribus Unum (“Out of many; one”) to the meaningless In God we trust, we seriously debate about politicians religious beliefs, and consider religious values to be a public concern. God is, unfortunately, *not* being removed from our society.
As for the “simple question” was this country a better place to live in 1940-1976 than now? No. I can honestly say I’d rather live now. There are good things about 1940-1976, sure: lots more open space, less population density, affordable housing, no freaking religious reich in the freaking white house and no freaking Iraq war bankrupting our grandchildren!!!; but no, today literature, media, and the arts seem more intelligent. The diversity and ability to interact with people on a much wider scale is easier. And frig it! we have the internet which I’d curl up and die without.
That’s all rather irrelevant and arbitrary and has little to do with God coming in or out of society.
“Simple question: was this country a better place to live before or after God started being removed from our society?”
I’ll just say that if anyone thinks that this is a “simple” question, then they quite obviously have a simple mind.
However, Bob is too generic to be a sock-puppet. There’s no shortage of clueless folks who would put such a “moral dilemma” before us. Don’t kid yourselves.
“Maybe I’m just being paranoid…”
Don’t let the terrorists win, Kseniya. Be strong for America.
As if I needed a reason aside from the obvious one to die before my stepsons or son (my kids, I love them all, but have to recognize the fact that two of them have another, equally loving advocate), I do not think that I could respond in a civil manner to anyone who offered me any solace due to “God’s plan”.
I normally take a person’s offered prayers with kind acknowledgement of their sincere thoughts, as it is their thinking about the situation which counts (only time in real life this is actually true, kids, never try it on a spouse). But if I had just lost a child, and anyone had the gall to tell me that it was not only traceable to a specific deity, but a predetermined part of “the plan”, I know that I would say things that would not only offend the person offering solace, but result in a giant scene of me screaming at anyone who believed that a god of some sort was responsible.
I think I can deal with randomness.
If you offer me a god to blame, I will, and you better hope your faith is a match for my rage.
Spoiler, it won’t be.
I just love how the religious people feel so offended in this case. It never ceases to amaze me how intolerant and close-minded they are. The billboard is not hurting anyone, it’s simply expressing a viewpoint. This is exactly what Dawkins always talks about “religion is accorded a level of respect that is disproportionate to everything and is hyper-sensitive to any form of criticism”…that might not even apply on second thought because the billboard isn’t even criticizing anything! I guess possibly indirectly, but seriously, just relax people. Atheists need to know that they are not alone in their outlook and this is a good first step to mobilizing and creating awareness.
#94 That Faux news story was as unbalanced a piece of propagandistic crap as I’ve ever seen. Plus, I’d confess to any known crime if that announcer’s voice was piped into my cell for very long.
#94 That Faux news story was as unbalanced a piece of propagandistic crap as I’ve ever seen. Plus, I’d confess to any known crime if that announcer’s voice was piped into my cell for very long.
“the creators of this billboard have a secular agenda”
Yep, another stating the obvious prize is needed.
“Plus, I’d confess to any known crime if that announcer’s voice was piped into my cell for very long.”
When did TV journalists abandon the concept of “inside voice”? “SOME PEOPLE WANT THAT BILLBOARD TO COME DOWWWN! FNUHHHH!” They do? Fuck ’em. Seriously, fuck them with a rusty crowbar. We’ve had to put up with smarmy religious billboards for years. What the hell is wrong with our own billboard with fluffy clouds on it? They want atheists to think they are alone. Isolate them and shame them back into the temple. Fuckheads.
Hey, I just remembered why I don’t have a TV.
Bob:
And if there’s no God, what’s preventing me from going to rob a bank or kill someone or cheat on my wife if I knew I could get away with it in terms of the law?
As you believe in God, you shouldn’t worry about what is preventing *you*. You should worry about what is preventing *me*, who doesn’t?
Oddly, though I am not. Are you claiming the God stops *atheists* from doing crimes? That is one I never heard.
Do bear in mind there are millions of atheists in the country and almost none of them are criminals. Almost nobody are criminals.
Why? I dunno. Human instinct most likely…
As the poser of a hypothetical, it’s your responsibility to explain your hypothesis. Why would there *being* a God prevent you from being a criminal? Why would there being a God prevent *me* from being a criminal? Why doesn’t whatever prevents you and me from being a criminal prevent *criminals* from being criminals. If God were to somehow prevent crime, why are the majority of criminals in the United States (just as the majority of non-criminals in the United States)… Why or the majority of criminals in the United States believers at the time the commit the crime?
Trick Question! there are more believer criminals than atheist criminals because there are more believers than atheists period. *But* the proportion of believers to atheists among criminals is slightly *higher* than among the general problem. So whatever it is that keeps an athiest from doing crime works slightly better than whatever it is that keeps believers from doing crimes. Or maybe its the other way around; whatever makes criminals do crime works slightly better on believers than atheists. Or maybe its the third way around. Whatever makes folk believe in God is slightly corelated with whatever makes folk do crime.
In any event I don’t believe in God; I don’t do crime. What you do… I don’t know.
You don’t commit crimes because you’re told not to by God.
We don’t commit crimes because we’re told not to by law. Plus it’s anti-social. And selfish. And it hurts people directly or indirectly. Also jail is no fun. Might as well mention that some of us care about our fellow (wo)man and what happens to them. Some of us abhor violence. Some of us abhor irresponsibility.
See, it doesn’t take being accountable to a deity to allow someone to be good. Chances are, if we could get away with murder, none of us would because it is a cruel and selfish act which robs someone of the only life they have.
I don’t think it says anything much, actually. “Do you believe in God?” is how the question is typically couched here, were Christians are a minority and the poll makers as likely to be hard atheists as anything else.
I’d blame intellectual laziness, but that sounds like work.
A sign of times ?
that’s one thing I found great about America, this billboard, wherelse would you see something like this ? I think this is exactly the kind of thing that is needed in this country, to maximize the effect of positive network externalities so that non believers don’t get the impression any more they are just a small silent minority.
my local Baptist church has finally taken down their dumb “Prozac” sign I complained about on another thread but otday has replaced it with one that says
” God forgives all your sins…
…yes, even that one”.
I nearly slammed the brakes on in the car in a moment of WTF delight. If that’s not an all out admission that religion is nothing but a mind-fucking, get out of jail free card then nothing is.
woozy#114
Is that a fact?
I have heard of convicted felons becoming “born again” evangelicals in prison. I wonder if there are any stats on what their religious beliefs were prior to incarceration?
@woozy: Probably loosely theist. We’re living in a culture of indoctrination. Although the average family is not fundamentalist they still extol the virtue of believing in god to their children. Belief in god prior to prison is probably comparable to a child’s reluctance to abandon the notion of a man in a bright red suit coming once a year to reward him for being good. Except now he’s appearing on the naughty list and the only way to get his presents is to accept a zombie into his blood-pumping organ.
Sorry, I meant to address the previous post to kryptonic not woozy.
woozy and kryptonic:
You may be interested in this:
http://scientificinquiry.blogspot.com/
Caveat: I found this after 5 min web browsing and so have no idea about its quality.
FYI, the local message board has been discussing the billboard since it was first sighted: http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/spirituality-faith/56570-dont-believe-god-you-not-alone.html
However, I’ve seen a split among Christians on astrology and other forms of woo. Many actually don’t believe that such things work, but they do believe that “The Devil” is making people believe that they work! And almost all, I think, believe that such things can be made to work with enough supplication to occult forces.
They did provide a rich backdrop for some RPGs. Let us give the Christians that due.
So whatever it is that keeps an athiest from doing crime works slightly better than whatever it is that keeps believers from doing crimes.
I suspect (although I don’t know how I’d find evidence for this) that both criminality and atheism correlate to intelligence and education. That is, atheists tend to more than averagely intelligent/educated and criminals less so.
Of course being intelligent and educated carries no moral weight, but it will probably reduce both the urge to adopt a criminal lifestyle and the chances of being caught if you do choose that route.
Having said that, kryptonic has a point that if there ever was a time when you might be tempted to drop your pride and lie through gritted teeth ‘I believe, Lordy, Lordy, I believe’, then the prospect of doing a long stretch in the slammer with some doubtless hard-core fundie screws running the place might well be it. However, in the UK at least, I hear that the food is better if you convert to islam.
As for Bob’s stunningly unoriginal comment on why we are not all pillaging small communities this weekend, I think people with that mind-set should be obliged by law to turn themselves in to the local constabulary the first time doubt crosses their minds. These are rabid dogs on a gossamer leash.
Yes, there are millions of atheists. Yes, almost none are criminals. Almost nobody is a criminal.
from: http://scientificinquiry.blogspot.com/
There seems to be a general belief among atheists that the amount of atheists in the US prison population is proportionally much smaller than the amount of atheists in the general US population.
No. The belief is not that the proportion is much smaller; the belief is that the proportion is very, very, slightly smaller.
The point being, that only religion can keep us moral is patently absurd as 1) the a-religious are every bit (and just a teeny-weeeny smidgen slightly more) moral as the religious and conversely 2) the a-moral are every bit (and just a teeny-weeeny smidgen slightly more) religious as the moral.
I come late to the table but the poll is definitely PZwned:
Yes = 1,999
No = 7,298
Wishy-washy wimps = 597
My daughter had Hodgkins (cured now) and we never once turned to imaginary beings for help and solace. Prayers were offered by friends and coworkers. I just bit my tongue and said nothing derogatory, but praised the doctors, the hospital, modern medicine, etc.
Eat well, stay fit, Die Anyway.
Good to hear about your daughter’s recovery, Die Anyway.
Here’s another poll we need to crash.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/state-offers-cross-on-license-plates/20080606094709990001?icid=100214839x1203468367x1200140837
Seems So. Carolina is putting out a license plate w/ a cross against backdrop of stained glass.
Right now, thumbs up leads thumbs down, 69% to 31%!
Let’s go get ’em.
@GOP:
Where did Miss South Carolina come from again?
Well, I did my deontological duty and voted. Damn, but I love poll-crashing!
My inner deliberate antagonist was going to write, “Look, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that religions are nothing more than the primitive superstitions of men who did not understand the world. We can do better by far.” But then I saw that you have to register to comment, and that’s far too much work to pick a fight over the internet.