Godless heathen that I am, even I can read the subtext in Don McLeroy’s recent letter to the Dallas Morning News. First he reassures us that he is very, very, very Christian, and then he promises to purge the dogma from Texas education. We know what that means in the up-means-down world of Christianist fanaticism: the dogma is the science and his empirical evidence is the revealed word of his Lord, Jesus Christ.
I’ve heard a few words about the situation looking up in Florida, but Texas is a dismal scary place for evolution education — I’m going to have to put a few more quatloos on Texas in the creationist courtroom catastrophe pool.
I’ll tell you what, you can be the disembodied brain if I can be the thrall training under the girl in the silver lame two-piece.
In all seriousness, let’s hope the Texans can put out there own fires. The last thing I need right now is a Gunfight at the ID Corral.
Oops. THEIR own fires. That’s just embarrassing.
Yes, the situation in my state, Florida, is looking up. Thanks to massive ridicule, the Polk County School Board creationists gave up their idea of sticking ID into their science classes. I suggest ridicule them some more here:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/22/na-polk-needled-noodled-in-evolution-flap/#comments
nice to hear BobC.
to all those who eschew the use of ridicule, what happened in both Florida, and earlier, Ohio, are excellent examples of the power of ridicule to alter the direction of the culture wars.
I know you’re out there, so do try to remember these examples the next time you think to criticize those of us who find ridicule to be a very effective tool.
That is beauty.
Evolution is one of the great ideas of western civilization. It unites disparate parts of science related to biology, such as botany, zoology, mycology, nuclear physics, chemistry, geology, paleontology and archeology, into a larger framework that helps scientists understand nature.
Nuclear physics?
Someone’s going to have to explain that one to me.
@6: Radiation can cause mutations that might be selected?
Nuclear physics?
Radiometric dating, I presume!
Quatloos? Has the dollar sunk that low?
That’s the most obvious one, yes.
No she doesn’t. If she did, she wouldn’t subscribe to efforts to keep her faith guarded by the mechanisms of the State and to remain without challenge.
My opinion is that ID is fostered by those that are the most insecure their faiths. That these people are so insecure that anything that challenges them must be destroyed less it destroy them. And I think their public actions, their words, their hysterical hand-waiving and efforts support my belief about their true lack of faith.
In short, you don’t need science to prove God exists if you have faith.
I also think the efforts of the Florida Citizens for Science (Joe Wolf and myself) had a influence on the
Polk School Board.At the last board meeting we (Joe and I) made it very clear what the ramifications of
trying to place ID in the school system could be.
I still think we should cut a deal with the fanatics. In return for Constitutional amendments on the separation of church and state, and on banning religion from the classroom, we give them Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee so they can form their One Nation Under God. Maybe even give them some starter money in case Jesus doesn’t come through.
John Mikes
Photographer of
Gawd’sEvolution’s BeautyOops. Link should be
this.
Interesting point — but I’d switch the focus from “insecure in faith” to “conservative in faith.” What makes these people insecure is that they hold a very cartoonish view of God. This view is hard to hold without stopping the thought process very early on.
I talk to lots of liberals who have just as strong a faith, in a stricly quantitative sense, it’s just completely removed from actually having to believe anything too specific. or the beliefs are compartmentalized.
That’s why sometimes i have more respect for fundy religion. They actually are chasing after a holistic, consonant world view. Consonant with their beliefs, if not consonant with reality…
Bonus credit for the Gamesters of Triskelion reference, PZ.
BobC #3,
Thanks for the link. I posted my response. It’s the old “evolution is just theory” wankerism on parade again…
McLeroy isn’t smarmy. He is a raging Salem witchcraft trial class religious bigot.
His problem is he was born centuries too late. It is no longer legal in the USA to kill heretics, blashemers, witches, and pagans. This has been a source of enormous bitterness to him but he will do what he can.
A court case is inevitable in Texas. McLeroy has been trying for years to get rid of evolution in Texas and now he and his theocrats own the state government. The dogma he intends to purge is evolution.
It’s all well and good to go through the ballet of civilized discussion about Texas school curriculum. But you don’t bring a knife to a gunfight and McLeroy makes no secret he is heavily armed and trigger happy. Just ask Ms. Comer, the recently purged head of science curriculum.
Was thinking something similar. Texas is already owned by the theocrats and has QOL statistics such as poverty much higher than the national average. So we simply declare Texas a national sacrifice area and trash heap.
Set up refugee camps across the borders in the USA and Mexico for anyone with a college degree, a brain, and a desire for freedom and life. Then let the religious fanatics turn the state into the next Cambodia or Afghanistan. The Texas Taliban would have a great time heading back to the Dark Ages.
#13 and #19: No thanks. We don’t want ’em here. (MS)
Don’t throw the freethinkers in the South to the dogs! ^_^
#16: Bonus credit for the Gamesters of Triskelion reference, PZ.
Yeah, but now I won’t be able to think of folks going after the cdesign proponentsists without hearing the Captain Kirk fight music…..
inkadu wrote: What makes these people insecure is that they hold a very cartoonish view of God.
What other view is there? The “sophisticated” view is based on the same cartoon. About on a par with Bugs Bunny.
I agree that ridicule is a very effective weapon against the type of idiocy that the fundies espouse. I also agree that ridicule should be used more often against their Luddite nonsense. But, give us a break; there are intelligent and educated folks that live in Texas and other parts of the South. Literate Texans WILL shame the fundies into a corner just like the literate citizens in other states.
Please, don’t insult your scientific friends who happen to live in the Southern states by over generalizing your ridicule.
Not our fault that both states put Bushies into office…
it clear that the voting population in both have issues.
But keep trying. Just don’t take it so personally.
We know there are intelligent and literate people in Texas. That is what the refugee camps across the borders in the USA and Mexico are for. The Texas National Sacrifice Area plan envisions a mass exodus of people with brains and survival instincts. It is anticipated that after the intelligentsia run the borders, the average religosity score in Texas will double and the average IQ will drop to 50.
IMO, ridicule in Texas isn’t going to work. McLeroy and the Texas Taliban are immune to it. My guess, they already know there will be a court case and they are already preparing for it. What is the point of being a theocrat in power if you can’t persecute people, run purges, set up gulags, and cause as much havoc as possible? Otherwise, you might as well believe in democracy and freedom and other silly ideas.
Re; #25
I couldn’t agree more with your view on what the Texas Taliban are doing in the State Education department. From this side of the pond it looks like an inevitable consequence of religious fundamentalism being given power. The way to prevent it may well start in small, local work by hundreds and thousands of intelligent, concerned people on local school boards etc but the reason it is prevalent is that power cascades from the top; if the country continues to elect religiots and refuses to elect intelligent, capable and thoughtful leaders to the top jobs then you will constantly be fighting an uphill battle.
Give me some hope that that situation will change soon, please?
Texas Ed Chairman:
Then oh goody — let’s examine the God hypothesis! So much for the NOMA barricades…
Moses #11 wrote:
You know, this is an interesting area. Clearly, we can attack the creationists for “not having enough faith.” They’re being bad Christians, poor theologians. As Moses said, “you don’t need science to prove God exists if you have faith.” More sophisticated, less literal views manage to reconcile science and religion through making leaps of hope that they just fit together some way, never mind, jump God back to the level of mystery behind whatever it is we’re talking about, and all is right with the world. Good Christians should believe in Christianity because of faith, not evidence. Creationists are vulnerable in this area, and we can use it.
Trouble is (as inkadu points out), they’re only vulnerable because they buy into the idea that faith is a good, wonderful, character-building asset which enhances one’s understanding of life. Everyone should have faith. But we don’t buy into that. In fact, we’re arguing against that very thing, that “faith” is valuable because it’s intellectually honest and emotionally mature. And those who don’t have it are lacking in both departments.
So when we use the “religion should be based on faith, not science” line on them we’re using it as pure strategy. It’s just a tactic. We don’t actually believe that — we examine religious claims in the light of modern science ourselves — but hey, it works on their level.
There are some good reasons to do this. They should not analyze the existence of God in public school science classes — one, because it’s against the separation of church and state, and two, because the majority will take control of the debate and use it to promote belief in God. But, technically, we’d win it.
As I said, interesting conflict.
“That’s why sometimes i have more respect for fundy religion. They actually are chasing after a holistic, consonant world view. Consonant with their beliefs, if not consonant with reality…”
Sounds good on paper but in reality they are not honest with themselves and deserve no respect.
As a former Fundy who used his head too much, I know what the typical mindset is. As a Fundy it is important to block out the real world and simply not think of anything that causes troubling and contradictory thoughts. Just go to church, bring a nice casserole to the potluck, look good in church, maybe pray real loud to attract notice, an live an insulated life. Above all don’t think. If you do you have to deal with all the contradictions in the Bible. It’s a library of small books that have differing and dichotomous viewpoints.
If I were to grant respect for any Christian, I would rather admire the one who would accept science and reason and twist their religious beliefs to match instead of the nuts who want to make reality match their beliefs. There’s hope for the former but none for the later and no respect for their myopic, reality denying idiocy.
Yeah, but now I won’t be able to think of folks going after the cdesign proponentsists without hearing the Captain Kirk fight music…..
I’m rooting for Spock.
As a concerned Texan, I am worried about the court option. The proevolution/establishment clause side has won 100% of federal court cases , but the worst thing that could happen for our position is to lose one. It has been pointed out elsewhere recently, that the federal bench in Texas may well be a problem. The issue is framed here in “strengths and weaknesses”, not explicitly IDC. I wouldn’t wish too hard for this to go to court.
Someday the reality based community may lose a court case. So what? That is the way it goes. If you win 99 cases and lose 1, it doesn’t mean you have lost the whole issue forever. It means you are 99 to 1. That is no reason to back off when crazed religious fanatics try to sneak their wacko mythology into kid’s science classes.
There are always appeals and other courts in other states. Besides which, the ruling classes are mostly into this for the votes and mob rule. They really don’t want to see the USA turn into a third world banana republic. It would cost them money and power, their only real religion.
And at the end of the day, if science and truth lose to religious fanatics and they destroy our civilization. Way it goes. You do what you can to stop it. After that, stockpile popcorn and wine, sit back, and watch it on TV.
Toybeen pointed out that 18 of 22 civilizations fell from within. Our American civilization will end some day, just like every one before it. Was sort of hoping that it would hang together for my lifetime, que sera sera.
Re; #31
I’m sorry to disagree with you raven but I see a few problems with your analysis.
Paragraph 2; The reason why I believe it is important that the State Education fight is fought and won is the effect it would have on textbook production across the country (let alone the effects it would have on students in Texas). Being so numerous, as I understand it, the textbook printers place great emphasis on the size of that market; the books would change for many if not all as a result of being rewritten to ‘teach the controversy’.
I tend to agree that the Christian Right advocates mob rule and this is precisely what the danger is (it links to what the creo-troll Mark was saying earlier); if key decisions are in the hands of illiterate, ignorant religious fundamentalists then all suffer as they de facto create a theocracy that determines the social conditions for all members. That’s what happens in the democratic (majority-rule) system.
I stongly urge you to rethink the premise that they have no interest in turning the USA into a third-world banana republic. I see no evidence whatsoever to support it and every kind of evidence that they deliberately create conditions of economic disadvantage, educational disadvantage and mass-media control precisely to foster control of unthinking, blind-acceptance-tending people (isn’t this a definition of faith?). In these conditions they in fact retain the money and power they, as you rightly say, so crave.
Your last two paragraphs are revealing to me of the mindset that absolutely confirms the old dictum; for ignorance/evil to win it only requires that people of intelligence/good do nothing.
Don’t be too disheartened, I mean none of this as a personal criticism. However I do feel sad if your approach to these issues is widely shared. At least there will be a bolt-hole for anyone who cares to avail themselves of the opportunity over here in western Europe; I’m sure you’d be welcomed.
This is just a blog, I don’t get too worked up about internet discussions. There is a real life out there. To your points.
1. If you show up in court you will probably win. Religious discrimination is blatantly illegal in this country and that a government body has been taken over by fanatics makes it even worse. But you might lose, the courts are the weakest branch of government.
But, if you don’t show up in court, you are guaranteed to lose. You have to be in the game to win. Letting fear of losing dictate your responses isn’t a good idea at all.
2. Who said anything about going quietly into the night? I’m the one advocating walking into the courthouse OK corral. You do what you can to prevent your civilization’s fall. But not to get too Marxist here, there are forces of history that seem to end up prevailing no matter what people of good will do. It is unfortunate, it is reality.
All civilizations fall. The vast majority fall from within. In the last century we’ve seen the British empire go and the Soviet empire collapsed rather recently. “Those who cannot learn from history end up repeating it”, George Santayana. If it is our turn, in the end popcorn and wine will be all that is left for us.
3. My guess about the ruling classes is based on their one true religion, power and money. If the US falls, they won’t suffer because the truly large fortunes will just leave for Antigua or Sardinia or somewhere warm and peaceful. But it will cost them a lot. OTOH, relying on ignorant mob rule has a habit of backfiring.
4. Some of the best and brightest will definitely leave. One of my colleague’s family left Germany in the early 1930’s after seeing a Hitler speech. He is married to a South American and they have a house in SA, recently purchased. He has one eye on the door and will bolt if it comes to that. I may do the same myself someday.
It may not happen. There is definitely a backlash against the ignorant fanatics in the USA. The rise of militant atheism. Really, Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and their murderous lying followers have made more atheists than Dawkins et al.. Polls show this as well, a plurality of Americans are fed up with these guys. The fundies lost the congress in 2006. You can see it in the desperation of the Xian Fascists, like McLeroy. They see their chance for power slipping away.
In the very long run, even if they win, they will lose. Not too long ago the Khymer Rouge owned Cambodia. As you sow, so shall you reap. It didn’t get them anywhere in the end.
In the very long run, even if they win, they will lose. Not too long ago the Khymer Rouge owned Cambodia. As you sow, so shall you reap. It didn’t get them anywhere in the end.
you might want to rephrase that.
the “collateral” damage of even a few years of their rule at least got them to the point where they will be remember in history.
it could perhaps be more correctly said that if they win, we all will lose.
still I fully agree that one court case win is not going to swing the legal tide against them (unless it’s a supreme court case, and we are still a long way away from that).