Adam Cuerden sent along this old political cartoon that doesn’t really make much sense to me. Are we supposed to sympathise with William Gladstone? He’s the guy with a big knife trying to murder the lovely creature who just wants to cling to his rock and be left alone. Tattooing his tentacles with the the words “rebellion,” “lawlessness,” “outrage,” “sedition,” etc. doesn’t change the action we’re witnessing.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Man imitates the cuttlefish, I think,
And borrows his idea and his ink–
If it’s in print, it’s apt to be believed;
A cloud of ink, and everyone’s deceived.
The cartoon is clearly biologically flawed. Everyone knows that cephalopods exclusively wear berets.
The cartoon is clearly libellous. William Gladstone was a good bloke! Born in Liverpool (which gave him a head-start in life). In his later years, he sought an audience with a certain Charles Darwin and visited him at Down House.
What? The cartoonist ran out of legs before getting to “drunkenness”?
Punch, from that time period had, what can be seen nowadays as an extremely racist view of the native Irish population. They were generally portrayed as ape like creatures, out to create mischief or terror on their genteel English masters. That cartoon is somewhat mild in comparison to most from that time. Coming so soon after 1 million had been left starve to death in the famine and several million forced to emigrate to survive I guess there is some searching for a justification for the inhuman treatment dealt to what were at the time simply one group of British subjects.
And Zeno, a little point to take into consideration, you are, of course, perfectly free to make jokes about Irish drunkeness, just as any Irish person reading that remark are perfectly free to consider you a racist fuckwit.
I’m not seeing how Zeno is a racist fuckwit for pointing out the fairly obvious fact that Irish people are commonly accused of drunkenness. I read Zeno’s comment to be critical of the cartoonist, not of the Irish.
(Duh.)
(And check your comma usage while you’re at it, Martin.)
(As an American with at least 50% Irish heritage, I don’t consider Zeno to be racist at all, at least not based on that comment, but improper punctuation bugs me.)
Punch portrayals of the Irish were pretty racist, all right; but were a little more nuanced than they’re generally given credit for these days. Roy Foster has a good essay on the subject, which is found in (and provides the title for) his collection Paddy and Mr Punch.
(BTW, Martin a mhic, I agree with RickD: you are almost cetrtinly grossly misreading Zeno.)
Gosh darn those pesky bogtrotters for not dying off faster.
Interesting that one of the tentacles is “terrorism” — I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that that word was of more recent coinage. Mid-20th C, at least.
As a 100% Irishman actually from Ireland (none of this “I’m Irish because my great-great-great grandfather once shook hands with a fella from the Auld Country” nonsense), I think Zeno’s funny rather than a racist fuckwit.
Come on, Martin, lighten up – it’s Friday (and what’s more the Friday of a bank holiday weekend if you’re lucky enough to be in Ireland)!
P.
Actually, I thought Zeno’s comment was a) funny and b) thought-provoking, and led me to wonder where the “Popery” tentacle is. Maybe Gladstone had already cut it off.
PZ, don’t you know if we don’t fight the terrorists in Ireland they’ll only follow us home to Britain?
Do you want to cuttlefish and run??
Maybe a partition of Ireland will solve all the problems.
It’s all about the North Sea oil anyway.
aiabx @11,
led me to wonder where the “Popery” tentacle is. Maybe Gladstone had already cut it off.
Unlikely. Like any good Victorian prod, Gladstone detested popery as an institution. But like any good liberal, he opposed discrimination against catholics on the basis of their religion. Among other things, it was he who engineered the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland — that is, deprived the minority Anglican church of its status as official state religion. Among the effects of disestablishment was that the majority catholics (and the non-Anglican protestants) no longer had to pay tithes to a church they did not belong to.
And Punch was unlikely to attack popery either, at least when attacking Irish insurrection. The magazine’s difficulties with the Irish were political, not religious. And with good reason. As a rule, in those days the members of Ireland’s Roman Catholic hierarchy despised and discouraged the nationalist movement. They might not have loved the British government, but had arrived at a comfortable modus vivendi with it, helped along by, among other things, the establishment of a state-funded catholic seminary at Maynooth (Gladstone had supported that too, by the way).
Ken says:
I know the rest of your post was all a bit tongue in cheek, but… please assure me this was a joke?
@#9 Oh my no. Terrorism was a child of the French Revolution – The Reign of Terror. The word came into English in 1795. Many people, for a long time, considered it a good tactic.
Ah, but “terrorism”! Kill the sucker! (Or just cut off that one arm? Could this perhaps be the first recorded battle in the Global War On Tentacle®?)
I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that that word was of more recent coinage.
1790s, from the French terrorisme (Hint: What was happening in France in the 1790s?).
For a fictional account of terrorism in Great Britain around Gladstone’s time, I highly recommend Joseph Conrad’s The Secret Agent. Quite possibly the most insightful and prescient novel I’ve ever read. (Ooh, perhaps I should say, “The best novel in the spy genre is The Secret Agent,” a la PZ’s meme.)
As for terrorism in the US, from 1890-1920 or so, terrorist bombings were a regular occurrence in industrialized cities like Chicago, New York, or Boston. It wasn’t just Haymarket and Sacco & Vanzetti. The facade of the New York Stock Exchange still bears shrapnel scars from the 1920 bombing.
American’s associated the socialist and anarchist terrorists with Bolshevism, and IMO this is the source with much of the animosity that drove the Cold War (during which we opposed Arab socialism and funded the despots and Islamists, and the wheel turns around and around and around, and the wheel turns ’round and ’round.)
Ack! Grocer’s apostrophe! Make it go away!
Ireland usually comes out top in studies on binge drinking in the EU. And Belfast is top for drinking in the UK, according to PCP Luton; an average Belfastian spends £47,568 on booze.
Loved the Popery comment.
For God and Ulster,
Paul
PS. Yes, I’m off to the pub.
‘…an average Belfastian spends £47,568 on booze.’
Yeah, but that’s a whole weekend.
Just under the “devil-fish” chin, it’s labelled “Land League”. I looked this up in Wikipedia. 1881 was the middle of the Land War in Ireland, where there was widespread rebellion aimed at landlords. Most of the rural Irish were tenant farmers, with few rights with respect to the lands their families had lived on for centuries. The Land League was disbanded in 1882, and most of their goals were met by 1911.
So, the Punch cartoon isn’t directed against all Irish, but specifically against the Irish National Land League.
Love that Gladstone is all shirtless and muscle-rippling and buff. That’s not something you see every day.
Oh, wow. Just heard on the radio that the Charles Darwin exhibition is showing at the Auckland Museum. I’ll get to go up there and see it!
Martin, I agree with others who’ve posted re. Zeno. Poking fun at an ethnic group for a trait it’s known for (especially if it has a tendency to deliberately reinforce that image in people’s mind) isn’t necessarily racist. When it’s done maliciously (e.g., minstrelsy), that’s different. But poking at the Irish for drunkenness is like joking about how efficient or strait-laced the Germans are supposed to be.
I’m part Irish and I don’t mind a good drunken Irish joke. I’m part French and I don’t mind someone making fun of the French (when it’s done for fun and not maliciously, something we don’t see much of in the States any more). I’m part German and don’t mind German caricatures. I also don’t mind people poking fun at Americans or Californians (I’m a CA native). For what that’s worth.
On an aside, the Irish really aren’t at the top of their class in the drinking category. The Russians, Poles and Scandinavians probably have them beat by a wide margin. I think the reason they’ve gotten and kept that image is because they’re so good at singing about it.
So, the Punch cartoon isn’t directed against all Irish, but specifically against the Irish National Land League.
The Land League was a non-violent movement whose only weapon was the boycott. Members of the league vowed to shun anyone who aided rack-renting landlords; shopkeepers wouldn’t sell food to them, laborers wouldn’t work for them, etc. On of the first targets of this tactic was Captain Boycott, a landlord’s agent, and the tactic was so successful it became known as a boycott.
Anyway, the Land League was not a terrorist or violent organization so I would put those particular tentacles down to anti-Irish racism, of which Punch has a long history.
Anyway, the Land League was not a terrorist or violent organization so I would put those particular tentacles down to anti-Irish racism, of which Punch has a long history.
You’ll notice that “Land League” and “Terrorism” are separate tentacles. Victorian Punch was certainly anti-Irish, but I don’t think they were necessarily identifying the League with terrorism. From the late 18th century on, Ireland had a long tradition of (mostly but not entirely rural) terrorism, and on both sides of the sectarian divide: Whiteboys, Steelboys, Oakboys; Peep o’ Day Boys; Ribbonmen; Defenders; Fenians, to name only the best-known. The Land League might have practiced satyagraha, but not everybody did.
While I agree Zeno might have been poking fun at the cartoonist rather than the Irish themselves the fact that he worded it in such an ambiguous way leads it open to subjective interpretation. To make fun of a group based on a stereotype is fraught with danger. Where exactly do you draw the line?
Can you make fun of blacks or jews based on characteristic associated with these groups? Certainly there is no end of Jewish comedians making jewish jokes or black comedians poking fun at their own community but in-group joking is somewhat like in-family joking (you might jokingly call your own Mother a silly cow but if a stranger does the same thing does it feel the same?)
I suppose context is important and in my opinion the context of a discussion about a racist cartoon may not be the most apt context to add a joke denigrating the victims of the cartoon.
PZ, don’t you know if we don’t fight the terrorists in Ireland they’ll only follow us home to Britain?
They fought them in Ireland and they followed them home to England anyway. WHOOPS.
If this was happening now, the wingnuts would be drawing those cartoons and calling them ‘Hibernofascists’. Then Ann Coulter would be gibbering about killing all their leaders and converting them to Protestantism.
Do you realise, my friend Martin, that this stereotype is grounded in fact?
We have the highest rate of underage drinking in Europe and an outrageous pub culture. It’s ludicrous, in the village (not town, village) where my parents grew up there were 39 pubs. Not two, not three, thirty nine.
And it’s nothing new of course. What about the racially insensitive joke told by King Charles the Bald 1200 years ago in France to Johns Scotus Eriguna: What separates a Scot (Irishman) from a sot (drink)? A table, LOL!
So glad to see such a sturdy defense of a comment on irishmen’s drunkeness! I am visiting for the first (and last) time and I only wish I had been here for this group’s no-doubt-stirring defense of Dr. Watson’s recent statement!
And to those who take offence… As the Republican said, “It’s just humor! Can’t you take a joke?”
Alan, a lot of stereotypes are grounded in ‘facts’. As the previous poster implied Jim Watsons recent remarks were also based on the same sort of ‘facts’.
I lived for several years in Ireland (and throughly enjoyed it, thanks!). The reactions of the native Irish (that I read/heard) to the overgeneralising or sterotyping as heavy drinkers included “this is not what we/I want to be known for”; “ay, ’tis a problem”; “let’s talk about it in the pub”; “there’s a large number of teetotalers”; et al.
For what it’s worth — a pint? ;-) — I read the original comment as a joke, albeit one which should have had an emoticon (smiley) since it was ambiguous.
Isn’t that specieous? Why would cod oil be more valuable than octo ink?
Could you repeat that slowly, as a stupid swede I didn’t quite get that.
Meanwhile I can tell you that blonds do have more fun and that sexual liberty is a good way to spend your time. So some stereotypes may indeed have factual basis. (Though the ones about blonds is selfsustaining only.)
The problem is to know which are and perhaps also to agree on it. For example, fins are stereotyped (in Sweden) as taciturn (though romantic, passionate and creative). Not so, according to some new social statistics, they seem to got us beaten in a comparison. Chalk language difficulties and different educational background up as a reason. (Same as is behind the “stupid swede” stereotype as I understand it.) Using the stereotype for fun is suddenly not so fun anymore.
The same goes for swedish binge drinking. Yes, as part of the old vodka belt it is still an unfortunate habit. But continental wine drinking habits are slowly transforming the basis for that stereotype.
Isn’t that specieous? Why would cod oil be more valuable than octo ink?
Could you repeat that slowly, as a stupid swede I didn’t quite get that.
Meanwhile I can tell you that blonds do have more fun and that sexual liberty is a good way to spend your time. So some stereotypes may indeed have factual basis. (Though the ones about blonds is selfsustaining only.)
The problem is to know which are and perhaps also to agree on it. For example, fins are stereotyped (in Sweden) as taciturn (though romantic, passionate and creative). Not so, according to some new social statistics, they seem to got us beaten in a comparison. Chalk language difficulties and different educational background up as a reason. (Same as is behind the “stupid swede” stereotype as I understand it.) Using the stereotype for fun is suddenly not so fun anymore.
The same goes for swedish binge drinking. Yes, as part of the old vodka belt it is still an unfortunate habit. But continental wine drinking habits are slowly transforming the basis for that stereotype.
Martin: I really don’t think that comparison is apt. I never suggested that this problem is genetic in nature, only that it does exist and it is centuries old. And Watson based his unwarranted extrapolation on IQ. I hardly think they’re the same sort of facts at all.
Alan, gross generalizations may be sufficient for you but I guess they are not for me so I think we may have to agree to disagree on this issue. I am Irish myself and do not drink excessively and neither do my family or most of my friends back in Ireland. I realize that I cannot speak for all Irish people, and yes there are certainly some that do drink too much, but I would simply ask the courtesy in return of not being spoken for in turn. Irish people are not drunkards. Some Irish people are.
Well, since Gladstone was in favor of Irish home rule, I’m guessing this is a Tory cartoon chiding him for opening a kind of Pandora’s box with that issue, and that is now out of his control…the subtext being “elect the Tories, get a Tory PM, and WE’LL put down the uppity @#$@ for good…”
“fins”? :) Actually, Finns have the same stereotype of themselves. Do you have a link to these statistics? The stereotype should perhaps be updated with the information that if you give a Finn a mobile phone, suddenly they don’t stop talking…
Martin, I never asserted that you are a drunkard yourself, nor did I make a “gross generalisation” that Irish people are generally heavy drinkers. We do have a culture that revolves around drink, however, and it would be the height of foolishness to ignore it.
windy:
D’oh! I got my swedish language neurons crossed with the english. Making it “swenglish”, as we say.
Not directly, but a swedish article about the result. [I assume you can read it. If not, I can help out.]
I’m not sure how good the method is, if they had reference data et cetera. But it seems they found a reasonable effect, i.e. that finns are quite social.
windy:
D’oh! I got my swedish language neurons crossed with the english. Making it “swenglish”, as we say.
Not directly, but a swedish article about the result. [I assume you can read it. If not, I can help out.]
I’m not sure how good the method is, if they had reference data et cetera. But it seems they found a reasonable effect, i.e. that finns are quite social.