I expected that my students would get a little trial by fire in the furious life of the public intellectual, and the commenters here certainly provided that. Maybe a little too much of that. Dial the ferocity back a notch, OK? Constructive criticisms are greatly appreciated, but the nasty stuff is not. I suppose it’s useful in the sense that it’s going to toughen up the students, but it doesn’t reflect well on you. One thing I’ll be doing in class next week is making up some lists and handing them out in class: a list of the jerks (“You can ignore these commenters, they’re wasting your time”) and a list of the good people (“These commenters say useful stuff, pay attention to them”). That’s right, we’ll be talking smack about you.
Here are some other clarifications and concerns.
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A minor peeve: these aren’t “kids”. They’re young students, sure, but they’re also adults. I wouldn’t throw kids into the Pharyngula fire pit.
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Students are expected to make one post a week. I know these little snapshots are all you’ll see of them, but I don’t want them to get bogged down in replies to replies to replies to replies. They aren’t me, they have lives, I hope. Don’t look for extensive online follow-up.
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We will discuss some of the subjects brought up in their posts in class, and I’m sorry, you readers won’t get to see that. That’s going to be unsatisfying to you, but that’s the way it works — this is a pedagogical exercise for the benefit of my students, not for the benefit of the readers here, although I expect you will get some good and interesting material.
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Students have a right to privacy, and I’m the guy giving them grades. I won’t be publicly evaluating their work here, either to say that something was good or bad. Don’t bother trying to goad me into doing assessment in plain sight, I’m smarter than that. Also don’t bother trying to tell me how to assess the students — I’ll be unswayed.
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I will only be evaluating the students on the neurobiological part of their work, but I have told them that they have free rein (well, some limits; they can’t turn Pharyngula into a branch of their online porn empire, for instance) and can also say whatever they want on any other topic, and it won’t affect their grade or my opinion of them. One of my goals is to encourage students to be fearless about expressing themselves, even (especially!) if they disagree with my equally freely expressed opinions. If I’ve given the keys to my blog to an evangelical Christian, a rabid Republican, a yellow-dog Democrat, or a godless communist, so be it — I will be protecting their right to say whatever they want. Get used to seeing some contrasting opinions up front and center.
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While I defend and applaud their willingness to speak out on anything, I also still encourage everyone else to freely dissect and criticize. That’s part of the learning experience, too. Just don’t be too egregiously vicious — I don’t want to scare them away from this medium.
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If you’re disturbed by the appearance of novel viewpoints here, I think you need to develop a thicker skin, too. Console yourself that this is temporary, and the student accounts will fade in mid-December. Although, if any of the students enjoy this experience, I’ll also help them set up their own blogs and keep going with it all, god bless ’em.
Fairness and openmindedness the order of the day in an academic exercise? (gasping and clutching my pearls) :)
Looking forward to it actually… thanks.
Will you post the list of jerks and good people? I’d like to know if I’ll be getting coal for Christmas.
I for one am looking forward to the exercise. I’m sure the students will simply ignore the keyboard warriors and hopefully get a lot out of this.
He’s making a list,
Checking it twice.
Gonna find out
Who’s naughty and nice.
PZed is coming to to-o-o-own!
I think this is a stellar idea, PZ. My favourite part of university was discussing topics loud and passionately with other students over beer or coffee in the on-campus pub, and students who somehow avoid that experience are missing out on one of the best aspects of post-secondary education.
(Note: this comment is not intended as a transparent attempt at sucking up and getting my name off the ‘jerks to ignore’ list. I worked very hard to get on it in the first place.)
I do hope that the ever delightful Great White Wonder won’t be on the Ignore list.
Great PZ. There you go again! You are helping to destroy the very idea that fundies/creationists have about us atheists. I mean, you’re allowing dissent for jebus sakes! How very unatheist of you! I mean allowing all manner of ideas to be expressed here, I mean the nerve of some people!
Ok, all fun aside, I enjoy listening to different view points. It helps me gain a better understanding of issues.
Is your “List of the Naughty” going to be put forth on here?
Now, as long as none of your students are Vikings fans……
I don’t expect I comment here enough to make either list (though I read every article with relish), but you do have to admit, PZ, that posting an article with all those spelling errors deserves a little ribbing.
I thought about withholding this comment, but the empty white box beckons. PZ, the attitude you encourage us to take toward your students…
…nicely reflects how I as an atheist try to interact with believers. While I respect and appreciate the “bad cops” like you who openly deride believers, it’s not in my nature to join in. And we “good cops” also serve the cause well, despite your finding our approach not to be useful.
“One of my goals is to encourage students to be fearless about expressing themselves, even (especially!) if they disagree with my equally freely expressed opinions.”
RAmen to that!
” a list of the jerks (“You can ignore these commenters, they’re wasting you time”) and a list of the good people (“These commenters say useful stuff, pa attention to them”). That’s right, we’ll be talking smack about you.”
I think every blog needs one of those lists!
I’ve enjoyed your blog but now you also sound like really fun and challenging teacher. I wonder if the trolls (assuming the xenobiological existence of such) have a classroom where they can get together and target your students? Hopefully not :-)
There went coke all over the keyboard.
I wonder what list I’ll be on? Probably under the heading of No One of Consequence.
PZ, I’ll echo a suggestion made on an earlier thread: Maybe label these posts as “Student Post: Blahblah.”
It would spotlight the fact that this was one of your students, and maybe force some of us to dial down the heat of our responses.
It would also be a bit of a billboard for the students, who deserve some special recognition for putting up a post.
Also, I demand that you put me on the Good People List. Otherwise, I’ll give you SUCH a (verbal) whack.
Let me add my voice to those congratulating you on this exercise, PZ. I wish I’d had a professor who encouraged this kind of thing when I was an undergrad. I hope your students take something out of it.
Other than the rampant grammar-nazism and the Grumpus-tastic pearl-clutching about an innocuous “God Bless”, I saw a lot of worthwhile stuff in Bright Light’s comments – for example, the “here’s some researchers and studies by people who are working on the stuff you’re interested in” and expanding on ideas and questions raised.
And for the record, my list of NFL teams, in order of how much attention I pay, from ‘very little’ to ‘none’, is:
Bears
Vikings
Everyone else
Packers
Besides the on-campus pub thing (stupid America! Students need beer!), I agree. My coterie’s favorite topics by far were bashing objectivism and bioengineering chloroplasts into the epidermis.
Well you already have the Molly list as a starting point, I suppose, but the dungeon list (for the “list of the jerks”) currently only has one person who isn’t already banned.
Under the circumstances, presumably there’s a cephalopodian wink behind that remark.
Wassa matter, PZ? You don’t want your numbers inflated by a tenth of a point?!?
;-)
Dammit. Now I’m worried that there’s a small chance I may have made the good list. I get really self-conscious about these kinds of things, and I’m going to need to go kick* a creationist to feel better.
*(And, Billy, if you’re reading this, I mean a verbal kick, you little git).
Teach them how to objectively and fairly create those lists of “trolls and wizards” themselves. It’s tough not to group “wildly conflicting viewpoint” with “troll” without practice. A great skill to learn.
“My coterie’s favorite topics by far were bashing objectivism and bioengineering chloroplasts into the epidermis.”
A favourite rant of mine involved demanding that ‘scientists’ immediately commence research into ways to allow me to photosynthesise so I could stick it to the campus vendors who charged too much for food.
Any luck so far? If you need a test subject, count me in. My office is all south-facing windows, so I’m sure I’d be flowering in no time.
If I were photosythetic, I’d be etiolating right now.
Hey PZ, why not create a separate blog for this? I’ll loan you the name “Spawn of Pharyngula.” I’d still like to read it, but I’d like to differentiate between official doctrine and protege speculation at a glance.
PZ, a suggestion: create an icon or a logo that the students can put at the top of their posts so that we, the readers, can distinguish them immediately from your typical godless frothing ravings.
Will there be a Category student posts will be posted under? Or maybe even one for each student? (To make finding their stuff easier)
I think this is a great assignment. PZ has moved the steps of the Lyseum right here….how great is that?
Some posters simply need a reminder on decorum and civility and your students perhaps need a reminder on researching the intended audience. But the interchange of ideas was wonderful and very telling of the differences we share. All insightful.
PZ, because you are teaching a course in neurobiology, do you discuss synaesthesia in your class? I would like to see a good discussion about it from you and your erudite readers.
Thanks
Heh- CTRL+F for ‘category’ came up empty, but it seems ‘label’ was used a few times :P Guess ‘read first, comment later’ is good sense.
Ditto on the praise you’re getting for:
One of my goals is to encourage students to be fearless about expressing themselves, even (especially!) if they disagree with my equally freely expressed opinions.
Oh, the irony! Lol!
I wonder if you have any idea how you look, even to the vast majority of atheists.
That’s a good name. :-D
It might be possible to combine that suggestion with this one:
so that it happens automatically and is manifested as the watermark-like image underlying the header to those blog entries in the “spawn” category.
Like a chiseled Adonis, but with a rugged and manly beard?
fixed. :P
My name is also “Myers”, does that automaticly make me a good guy?
I think this is a great idea, PZ. My only concern is whether or not I’ll be able to handle the overwhelming sense of nostalgia and reverie I’ll inevitably feel reading the words of these students. I do envy them.
Serious suggestion:
It might not be a bad idea if you created a category labeled “student posts” and have the students use that category along with whatever other label they pick.
In all fairness, a few of the jerks on here also bring up good points fairly often, so you shouldn’t disregard the message just because of the tone.
Just laugh off the attitudes, but read carefully enough to see if there’s something to learn hidden with obfuscation or insult. And don’t take it personally.
“…a list of the jerks…”
You may want to ignore us, but your eyeballs will lock onto our snarky comments and be trapped like flies on flypaper!
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!
PZ, I take back my “mother hen” comparison from a few posts back.
Mommy bear is more like it! Bravo!
Am I the only one who sees PZ for what he really is?
/me chimes in with Mike Dunford‘s suggestion of a new category for student posts. It’s just more convenient, particularly if we want to find them again later!
Drat! I was hoping for some cephaloporn from your students.
A favourite rant of mine involved demanding that ‘scientists’ immediately commence research into ways to allow me to photosynthesise so I could stick it to the campus vendors who charged too much for food.
Any luck so far? If you need a test subject, count me in.
Sadly, no. Though most of us started in physics and biology, we’ve blossomed out into:
Psychology
Economics
Pharmacological Research
Editing manga
Cubicle surfing/Writing
Computer Science
Mathematics
and med school.
So no photosynthesis.
I decided to look into a refresher on photosynthesis because of some of the comments above and stumbled across this site.
http://www.johnkyrk.com/index.html
I sure wish there was something like this 30 years ago when I was trying to learn cytology and biochemistry.
I hope I get classified “mostly harmless.”
That would be cool.
Establishing mental ‘ignore’ lists may be a great way to avoid aggrevation, but it’s a poor way to have your ideas challenged. The danger of putting people who are annoying but right onto the list far outweighs the benefits from excluding knee-jerk critics and unthinking commentators.
If the students don’t want to have their thoughts, posting styles, and general intellectual attitudes questioned, they can stay off the Internet. If they post, they’re fair game.
my fear is that i’ll be on neither list. I better do something to make a name for myself, and quick!
Drat. That’s ‘aggravation’. Stupid brain doesn’t know how to spell.
Alfred Hitchcock presents, “Caledonian’s Inner Monologue”:
Yes, mother? No, mother, I knew how to spell it, I… IT WAS A TYPO!
Establishing mental ‘ignore’ lists may be a great way to avoid aggrevation, but it’s a poor way to have your ideas challenged. The danger of putting people who are annoying but right onto the list far outweighs the benefits from excluding knee-jerk critics and unthinking commentators.
Hopefully, one of his students will post the naughty/nice lists for all to see.
[The heart goes pitter-pat]
Sorry Caledonian, but it’s a pretty safe bet that your comment won’t get read, since we all know what list you’re on.
The DSM-IV section on Cluster B personality disorders?
Given the variety of viewpoints espoused here–by you, the frequent commenters, and occasional trolls–a truly novel viewpoint would definitely be worth reading. If such a rara avis comes along, could you please highlight it (the way you do for reposts from the old site), so we don’t miss it?
I think this is a great idea, PZ. I’m thinking about suggesting it to one of my own profs.
Awwww sheeeeet. Michael Egnor done told me ’bout you.
Wait a second… PZ Myers is whining about someone writing nasy comments on the Internet? Sounds like the height of hypocrisy to me.
As for the people suggesting a label for each student, might one suggest that they look at the name of the author at the top of the posts?
Still – an icon might be convenient.
As for human photosynthesis I’m against it. Since it would require people to run around naked. And we know that the larger surface area, the better, when it comes to taking in the sun. So please, no thanks.
Cue the flood of comments from “occasional” posters in the vain hope to struggle their way into being noticed enough to make it onto one of those lists…
(Kind of like this post from me!)
Strangely enough, plants seem to manage quite well without the running around and it would be counterproductive for photosynthetic humans to waste more energy than necessary. So you don’t necessarily have to put up with all that extra surface area wobbling and flapping about quite as much as you imagine. ;-)
You’ve missed out an important correlation between occasional and a completely different sort of struggle. A lot of the time it’s very hard to get any posts to appear at all on this website. Hence long absences in which it hardly seems worth the bother of even trying and having only occasional posts making it through.
Those kids need to learn the simple pleasures of including hyperlinks in their posts. I mean, the only think I can do is read what they said and move on. I want to mindlessly click links of different points made. I would need to search for information myself the way they post things.
PZ, I’m really enjoying your students’ posts, especially the one on protein folding. One of my most interesting college courses was in neurophysiology, and I’m looking forward to having your students introduce me to newer concepts and such.
And as someone who teaches writing, I applaud your efforts at having your students write to think about ideas. I’m impressed all around!
1. I see a lot of suggestions in these comments regarding matters I suspect PZ has already considered.
2. How difficult will it be to determine whether a post is written by PZ?
3. Comment #44 shows Caledonian’s misunderstanding of the obvious intent of PZ’s list.
Tsk.
Why would Caledonian think PZ hasn’t already considered its net utility, and come to a different conclusion?
My impression is that even naked people don’t have enough surface area to make photosynthesis really worthwhile. IIRC, we have about 11 square feet of skin, but less than half of that would (should ;-) ) be facing the sun.
Consider a bunch of plants with leaves around 5 square feet. (A squash vine or two would do.) Then consider that the fruits which take those plants all season to grow, amount to a few days’ or weeks’ food for a single human! And the plant still needs minerals from the soil, plus lots of water….
There’s a reason we humans got a taste for meat — energy density!
I’m sure I don’t comment often enough (or intelligently enough) to make the “good” list, but the thought of being in the blandly unlabeled majority is too depressing… So, maybe if I act like a complete ass for the next couple of days I can make the “jerk” list!
I haven’t read all the comments, but one recurring request is for flagging the “guest article.”
I don’t know about everyone else, but, on the main page, at the bottom of the article, in fine print, is the line “posted by XXX” and the date and time. Seems simple to me.
— CV
Comment #61 shows Morales’ lack of comprehension of the nature of Caledonian’s caveat.
Of course everyone will approve of their own choices for the ignore list. That’s the threat and the danger, Morales.
One of my goals is to encourage students to be fearless about expressing themselves, even (especially!) if they disagree with my equally freely expressed opinions.
I remember one of my professors in creative writing saying, “I can’t teach writing, but I can teach courage.” LSU, LSU.
Go for it guys! Don’t let the hypercriticism get you down. Worry more about the ideas. The grammar will surely follow.
@Caledonian #65: Comment #44 clearly shows you consider that it’s a bad idea to establish such a list at all, because it’s possible to thus exclude valid commentators.
Also, PZ wrote “You can ignore” not “you must ignore”. The list’s intent is obviously to increase the ‘signal-to-noise ratio’ for his students, not to shield them from ideas.
Lastly, PZ wrote nothing about the process whereby he will generate his lists, and is presumably aware of the bias issue.
Oh dear. Now PZed is doing it. I think I feel faint.