Hey, look, everyone! Canada
has
creationists! Ha ha!
If you look at a map and notice how that big peninsula Toronto is on is protruding into the US, and note that that penetration has been going on for hundreds of years, I guess it’s not surprising that they’d catch a nasty disease.
PZ, are you suggesting that Torontonians are dinks?
I think he’s saying they’re spunky.
Interestingly, the makers of the Expelled Film have all sorts of connections to Canada. The Ruloff guy has some sort of dealings with evangelical outreach to businesses up there, and the other one is on the board of a Canadian society pushing for more “religious understanding in government” or some such.
We also had one Stockwell Day… onetime leader of the federal ‘Canadian Alliance’, a party that later merged with the Progressive Conservatives, and now actually forms the minority government… A YEC, and still a cabinet minister, these days.
Might be more like time for the vancomycin.
After the leader of the party made those comments, a spokesperson from the party “clarified” his position:
“If there are schools that teach creationism in science class, they would not be eligible to be funded as part of this proposal,”
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ontariovotes2007/story/2007/09/05/ot-creationism-070905.html
Stockwell Day…YEC, got laughed out of an election because of those views. He’s persistent, though, and now he’s the MINISTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY.
Maybe he thinks G*d will protect us…
Cretinists abound where I live. There’s a Creation Museum in Big Valley, Alberta – about a 90-minute drive.
Sad to say, I haven’t yet felt the urge to visit.
I’m encouraged by the amount of negative press it’s been getting, though.
You know, if Americans started paying any sort of real attention to Canada at all (outside of the Ice Palace commemoration, congrats! lol) I’m sure they’d discover all sorts of nasty secrets and strange foibles.
I used to pity you Albertans because you had people like Stockwell running around. Now we’ve got them in my neck of the woods. Egads. Maybe our conservative creationist politician will don a wetsuit and make a fool of himself, too.
DaveX writes:
“You know, if Americans started paying any sort of real attention to Canada … ”
Thanks, but that sort of thing has historically turned out badly indeed:
CC
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
…well, at least our media and other public leaders know enough to jump on this as a terrible thing. All the publicity is bad and this might well cost him a LOT of votes….that gives me some hope.
Thankfully in Canada, promoting creationism still gets you properly labeled as ignorant, and appropriately rebuked.
PBC
I was really expecting that to be followed by a link to this, CC.
Thanks, but that sort of thing has historically turned out badly indeed:
For whom?
Yesterday morning I woke up (I thought) in Ottawa, and after checking the news went to look out the window to check for the ruby slippers that had to be next to the house, because clearly a tornado had relocated us to somewhere near OZ, or – worse yet – Dover….
All John Tory needs to do next is call for a press conference to be attended in wetsuits, and his mind-meld with Stockwell Day will be complete!
(yeah, sorry, few people outside Canada will get that bit. Just grin and nod knowingly….)
But yes, Canada is far from the utopia that we wish (or that Michael Moore pretends we are). Not that we don’t do a few things pretty darned well, but we also have our share of idiots. Fortunately we have, thus far, managed to keep them from acheiving a minority position in public office.
What peninsula? Toronto has a lake on one side. Southern Ontario is by no means a peninsula.
Yeah. Toronto is not on a peninsula.
Niagara is a peninsula. Toronto is not on it.
“Jordan Station, best view of Toronto from a safe distance”
I suppose I’d find it more humorous if it wasn’t likely that much of the infection came from the US. But yes, though it’s been said before plenty of times, it’s at least reassuring that we didn’t end up with all of the world’s morons, since other countries can be shown to have equally stupid people, once Ham and Dembski bring American ignorance into areas which had been lacking in it.
See, we may not be able to lead the world in science and technology for much longer, however the IDiots can maintain American leadership in scams indefinitely. We can be the new Nigeria, but in a more sophisticated, complex, and well-designed manner. How much do you suppose ID could be worth, if we managed to export it to most of the world?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I went to the creationist museum in Big Valley at the beginning of August. I’ll eventually get around to writing about it, but it wasn’t anything earth-shattering. The same old flood geology, the same old “Icons of Evolution,” the same old bacterial flagellum, the same old books by Morris, Dembski, Johnson, Wells, and Behe.
Boy, for people who think ‘Darwinism’ is chock full of holes, you’d think a single room wouldn’t be able to hold all the evidence against it.
When I asked if I could take photos, the owner said, “No problem, but if you trash us on the internet, please be sure to spell our name right.”
Sure thing, buddy: L-i-a-r-s-F-o-r-J-e-s-u-s.
Hey, uh, when do ya’all celebrate Stockwell Day? And what does it commemorate?
[/snark – yes, I have seen Talking to Americans]
Uh – I’m confused here. The stink is that public funds are being used in Catholic schools. But the Catholics officially accept evolution – they go in for magical abiogenesis, and add an unsubstantiated claim for the existence of a single common ancestral couple (Adam and Eve), but the basic scientific claims of evolution are accepted. So why the hell would they teach creationism?
Old news.
PZ said:
Must be one hell of a viagra-user…
LMAO!!
Yup, sadly there are creationists in Canada. In fact, during my tour of the Bodyworlds exhibit at the Ontario Science Centre, I overheard a woman tell her friend that she believed the human body was “designed”. A friend of mine actually held YEC views for a time, even though the rest of us never let him live it down. I think he was motivated more by bad experience with high school science teachers that soured him on “the hierarchical monolithic scientific establishment” than any deeply-held religious beliefs, because he also felt Pons and Fleischmann were unfairly maligned over cold fusion, along with other “victims” of the “scientific community”.
Anyway, we finally cracked him through a combination of badgering, the Talk Origins FAQ and that episode of Penn & Teller’s Bullshit! where the creationists and IDiots don’t come off very well. :-)
Anent Graculus, #16 above:
Napa Valley, Niagara Escarpment.
We Canucks always do things by halves.
I’ve never quite figured that out either. But one should note that at least two of the more prominent IDists are Catholic, Behe and that windbag Denyse. Also, the only local pro-IDist who pushed the matter into my town’s paper (as opposed to the many more creationists who have done similarly) is a Catholic.
I think the Catholics and mainstream Protestants did the best that they could with evolution, “deciding” that they were just fine with it, despite the obvious contradictions. Even Pope Benedict has finally issued a fairly strong statement in favor of biological science. Yet they have done this over and over on various issues, with nothing left to actually give evidence for their religion. Unsurprisingly, this doesn’t actually please religious people, who want to show that their religion has evidence instead of simply acquiescing every time God retreats.
Thus the Catholic IDists Behe and O’Leary (I should mention that O’Leary has inflicted her brand of idiocy into some Catholic publications), as well as a number of others less well known. They’re going to “believe” no matter what, but they do want to be able to show that they aren’t believing empty fables, and will jump at the opportunities which appear to present themselves. Too bad it just makes them and their religion look stupid when they adopt something as vacant as ID.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Hmm. I don’t like the implications of this.
Most Creationists are male. Some Creationism in Canada results from our close contact with American Creationists.*
PZed points out the phallic nature of southern Ontario’s geography. What part of the US anatomy, exactly, then is Detroit? It’s too late now, I suppose to fit Windsor out with a condom?
Possibly adding to the confusion, from Google Maps I note there is a River Rouge (Red River) and Cherry Island at the point of closest phallic approach.
I mean, some of my best friends are male, but based on recent revelations, I wouldn’t ever want a creationist preacher as a lover. It’s all shame and hiding and the moment they are discovered, they’re all denial. Not exactly loyal, that lot.
*For example Dr. Dobson’s Praise 106.5 station in tiny little Lynden, WA which exposes 2.5 million Canadians to his Focus on the Family lies.
Yes, I’m afraid we DO have creationists up here, but we feel it’s more polite to just snigger at them behind their backs.
Mocking political animals of this persuasion is much more fun, after all.
Oh yeah, Egnor’s another Catholic ID buffoon.
At least the brighter Catholics are bound to be embarrassed by these incompetent bunglers.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
We even have Canadian Mensa members who are delusional creationists.
Uh, can we not allow for the figurative peninsula, folks? If you take a look at the map (and squint a little), Southern Ontario does have the look of a large peninsula sticking into the Lakes between Michigan and New York, and Toronto is very much on it.
Hey, while I’m anti-nitpicking nitpicking, don’t you think that with canals and so forth, southern ON (say, from Barrie to Windsor) does not actually touch MI or NY at any point, and technically could be called a peninsula after all?
Either way, I think if we redefine Quebec as being an ocean, then it’s a done deal. And what with global warming, one day Toronto will be the new Miami anyways. :-)
It was inevitable, I suppose. I’d be warped in the head if my last name were “Tory,” too. What I don’t get is why the current Premier doesn’t issue a ringing smackdown to the proposal, saying, “We already had this discussion, remember? Nobody wanted to institute an Islamic court system in the province (much like the then-existing Catholic court system or Jewish court system, for non-criminal, interpersonal arbitration), so we got rid of religious arbitration altogether.”
The provincial Liberals have their thumbs up their asses, but on the other hand, the provincial Tories (aka the CRAP party) have their heads up their asses. I would rather the former than the latter. The last time a Conservative was Premier, people died, and the guy spent the entire time he was in office making a lot of people’s lives genuinely miserable (including mine).
Getting rid of the “separate schools” is the only fair outcome of raising the question, and way overdue, in my opinion.
For another example of Canadian sensibility, I invite you to peruse Bill Whatcott‘s comments on Free Dominion.
I’d recommend not trying to comment since as right-wing libertarians they moderate like nobody’s business. (A friend of mine who’s savvy with computers and IP addresses makes it a point to get banned from FD at least once a month.)
Anyways, I think it’s proof that us Canadians are perfectly capable of producing our own malicious, hateful, chicken-shit, sexist, bigoted idiots.
Canadian politics is always entertaining, isn’t it? I think that if we had a parliamentary system with parties changing (dare I say evolving?) over time prevents party allegiance being passed blindly through the generations. Besides, with it being more dynamic maybe more people would vote. You guys need a new PM. Badly. I really get the creeps from old Snake Eyes, I have since the debates. Those debates were broadcast on C-Span. I found Harper creepy, Martin boring, Jack Layton has heart but didn’t have a chance, and Gilles Duceppe seemed the most competent, too bad that he’s an extremist. He also looks a bit too much like Eric Idle, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion!
By the way, are the Progressive Conservatives the same people who thought that Canadian Reform Alliance Party was a good name? I have trouble following all the nuances.
//PZ, are you suggesting that Torontonians are dinks?//
Oh heck, he’d fit in well with most Canadians outside toronto then. :)
Have to say I’m emabrrassed over this one. I’d often claimed our christians (like me) were more sensible about evolution. Apparently not.
Very embarassing. However, he’s being heaped (dare I say ‘Liberally’?) with scorn by all and sundry. Most galling for him must be the number of commenters who’ve said “You idiot, you had my vote until now!”
As with Stockwell, our comedians will eat him alive – Stock will never live down three million people internet-voting that he change his first name to ‘Doris’, courtesy of Rick Mercer’s website.
By the way, are the Progressive Conservatives the same people who thought that Canadian Reform Alliance Party was a good name?
Nope, Reform came up with that. I personally always call them (the Conservative party) the ReformaTories.
#16 Skemono –
I, a Canadian, am not up to speed on all of the details as I was too busy teaching REAL science in highschool today but this is how I am led to understand it.
The Catholic schools are not really involved, I dont think. It is the christian schools that have the choice to teach creationism AND be funded publically (if his party wins). In some places there are distinct christian schools that adopt (and then mangle) public curriculum but are strictly a separate board (ie not yet publically funded – again unless his party wins). Anyone wishing to add, or correct, please do. Im looking into it more.
I can report a few localised infections in Europe, but so far, “the disease” is pretty much contained.
Hope the US branch of the disease will not start spreading on this side of the Atlantic…
Oh, dear, I leave the country for a day or two and all Hell breaks loose behind my back. Current wisdom is that a religious “back to the bad old days” policy will not fly with voters. Trial balloons keep getting shot down. For example, they entered a bill to de-legalize gay marriage, but it was promptly voted down. Still, it’s odd that in these days of home-grown terrorists with religious motivations, anyone would be advocating that we produce more centres of ingrown religiosity.
A note about the names: we had a Progressive Conservative party. Their attack ads made fun of then Prime Minister Chretien for speaking in a lopsided way because of a physical disability, and they lost so many seats that they lost official party status. Conservative voters out West switched to the right-wing, anti-choice, anti-gay Reform Party, which became the Alliance Party. Stockwell Day (a.k.a. “Doris“) made a few stupid moves as leader, some silly and some anti-feminist, and the party replaced him. The rump of the Conservatives eventually merged with the Alliance, forming the Conservative Reform Alliance Party. By that time the voters were so sick of the Liberals and Chretien that the CRAP party was elected with the smarmy, creepy Harper as leader.
Speaking of religious terrorists, I received two e-mails from ‘A Concerned Christian,’ Michael Korn, today.
Actually Toronto is not on a peninsula. It’s actually on an island thanks to the Trent Severn Waterway that joins Lake Ontario to Georgian Bay in Lake Huron. Admittedly it’s not much. However most of us not living in Toronto like it that way.
As an Albertan, I know it’s cliche to take pot-shots at Toronto, but it’s just so durn easy.
I think it’s because Toronto’s like the older brother that mom liked more: got into med school, is happily married with a kid on the way, etc. However, he rides a Segway. Vancouver’s like the cool older brother that plays in a band, has a smart car for in town and a motorcycle for road trips, and always has a hot artist girlfriend. I’d go one to compare all of Quebec to the semi-estranged half-sister, but I think I’ve forgotten my point.
Oh yeah! Nyah-nyah, Toronto.
Oh yeah, definitely brings images of Stockwell Day to mind. I haven’t been paying as much attention to all of this as I should, because it’s just not as easy anymore, when I can’t just turn on the television or pick up a newspaper to get Canadian news. So thanks for bringing this story up!
Anyway, for those others reminiscing about Stockwell Day, here’s an old favourite from Matthew Good on Much Music during that election: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mhjBWrsFjcg
“Stockwell Gay”. Haha.
Ah, can’t get enough of making fun of idiots…
By the way, are the Progressive Conservatives the same people who thought that Canadian Reform Alliance Party was a good name? I have trouble following all the nuances.
No, the Progressive Conservatives were the old Big Blue Machine: extremely politically & fiscally conservative, socially progressive, and basically made up of business-crats from Bay Street. Think Maggie Thatcher. Brian Mulroney, the last PC prime minister, privatized everything in sight and supported the first Gulf War, but also opposed aparthied and was pretty socially progressive, all in all.
They fell apart — literally, went from a majority of 195 seats in the parliament to two (2) seats — after a series of pork-barelling scandals and very unpopular policies.
The Reform party were the right-wing yahoos of the West, who took over on the conservative side of the Canadian political scene shortly thereafter. They can get elected in Alberta but not in Ontario. If the party tries to moderate its views so they are acceptable to Ontario voters, Alberta throws a hissy fit and starts another splinter party.
More than you wanted to know, I know, but important, at least to us.
Graculus (#36):
I personally always call them (the Conservative party) the ReformaTories.
You reminded me of my brother-in-law with that one. His daughter, who was about 2 months old at the time, was having, shall we say, some issues, and needed some suppositories. He and my husband both love puns to they of course had a field day with “Tory suppositories”. Yes, they both vote Liberal.
jrochest (#43):
More than you wanted to know, I know, but important, at least to us.
Actually, thanks for the information. I do try to keep up with this stuff. My husband is Canadian (Saskatchewanese) and he doesn’t seem to understand why. I can’t vote there after all. I did watch the Liberal convention when I was there last year (already? zheesh!) and he teased me about it. I figured that even though it was white washed history that they were glorifying, it was still history that I may not see from this side of the border. I found the whole process fascinating, we don’t have anything like that here but that’s how it used to be done. That’s how Abraham Lincoln got nominated even though no one knew who he was, for example.
And you are right, it is important. I was upset about the Harper election because I thought that Canadians knew better but I also thought that Americans knew better a few years prior. It looks like that (fingers crossed) may change soon enough!
… and Australia is run by pandering wingnuts. I guess being physically isolated doesn’t protect us from infection. [sigh]
There’s a pretty decent silver lining to this: John Tory, now having seriously undermined his reputation as a level-headed businessman, has probably just torpedoed his election campaign before it left port. His own campaign managers are even admitting this may be true (off the record of course).
It was probably just an off-the-cup remark with the intent to pander to the religious vote. But the public reaction serves to prove (once again) that religious fundamentalism remains unelectable in Ontario.
I think if we redefine Quebec as being an ocean
Nope, it’s a pond. (Officially incorrect Canadian in-joke)
Creationists have been in Canada for awhile unfortunately. When I was attending grade 12 at my highschool (This was 1985, I’m old) a bunch of kids walked out of our biology class when we started to learn about evolution. Our teacher was such a jackass that he conceeded to the students and decided that evolution didn’t have to be on the curriculum after all. This is how easy it is for idiots to affect our education. I was from a small town in the north. Northern Canada is the equivalent to America’s south.
Creationists have been in Canada for awhile unfortunately. When I was attending grade 12 at my highschool (This was 1985, I’m old) a bunch of kids walked out of our biology class when we started to learn about evolution. Our teacher was such a jackass that he conceeded to the students and decided that evolution didn’t have to be on the curriculum after all. This is how easy it is for idiots to affect our education. I was from a small town in the north. Northern Canada is the equivalent to America’s south.
“The Catholic schools are not really involved, I dont think. It is the christian schools that have the choice to teach creationism AND be funded publically (if his party wins). In some places there are distinct christian schools that adopt (and then mangle) public curriculum but are strictly a separate board (ie not yet publically funded – again unless his party wins).”
Not quite.
The current system has Catholic schools required to follow the provincial curriculum in everything but their religion courses. If they don’t they lose their funding. They also don’t get quite as much funding as public schools (IIRC, anyways), instead they get a percentage based on how much time is spent teaching standard courses.
What’s being proposed is that we expand this to create similar setups for every faith.
This wouldn’t actually be all that bad, since they learn all the same stuff, plus some religion in one class. However, our schools are having enough trouble as-is getting funding, and suddenly adding hundreds of new schools (a few dozen for each faith, minimum) isn’t exactly going to improve the situation any.
The best solution would be to get rid of the Catholic boards (then people would stop complaining about how unfair it is that they get a school board while other faiths don’t.), but since that board is entrenched in our constitution it’ll take far more effort then any politician will expend (Never mind requiring about 80% of the Canadian population to accept the change.) to change it.
So, unless public opinion turns against Catholicism for an extended period of time we’re going to keep funding Catholic schools and we’re going to keep getting other faiths doing their best to try and get some of that public money that should be going towards public schools.
Yes, I’m afraid we DO have creationists up here, but we feel it’s more polite to just snigger at them behind their backs.
yeah, we tried that too.
didn’t work very well. subtle is not something creationists have much grasp of.
suggest you get over your issue of politeness and start being more public with your ridicule.