It wasn’t that long ago that we got to hear lots of wailing about how secular/liberal values led to the Virginia Tech massacre (although, to be fair, most of the wailing was of the “god works in mysterious ways” sort). We had Chuck Norris blaming the “secular progressive agenda”.
Though one can point to Cho’s own psychotic behavior and our graphic slasher media as potential contributors to his deplorable murder spree, we must also hesitate to consider how we as a society are possibly contributing to the growth of these academic killing fields. I believe those who wield the baton of the secular progressive agenda bear significant responsibility for the escalation of school shootings. Even conservatives who refuse to speak when evil flourishes must acknowledge some culpability.
We had church groups claiming that restoring prayer to the schools would fix everything.
American Family Radio has raised a similar battle cry, claiming in a video that events leading to recent years’ school shootings in places like Jonesboro, Ark., Springfield, Ore., Littleton Colo., and Blacksburg, Va., “started when Madalyn Murray O’Hair complained she didn’t want any prayer in our schools, and we said ‘O.K.'” That is an apparent reference to Supreme Court decisions that have outlawed government-sanctioned prayer and devotional Bible reading in public schools.
Now we have a federal agency releasing a profile of the killer.
Cho, 23, of Centreville, whose family was religious and had sought help for him from a Woodbridge church, repeatedly made religious references. He said that he had been “crucified” and that, as with Jesus, his actions would set people free. He called himself a “martyr” who would “sacrifice” his life. He wrote that he would go down in history as the “Jesus Christ of the Weak and Defenseless.” He thought his actions would inspire others to fight back and get even.
Ooops. I predict that, just like Tim McVeigh is conveniently forgotten when it’s time to characterize terrorists as brown and muslim, Cho will be forgotten when it’s expedient to pretend Christianity is a religion of peace and love.
Verily I say unto you that the ways of the Lord are dark and mysterios, but never nice.
I approve of this post!
Wasn’t Jesus Christ the “Jesus Christ of the Weak and Defenseless”?. I am, of course, referring to the Jesus Christ who cured lepers and had dinner with tax collectors, not the one who runs con games with Pat Robertson.
Chuck Norris should consider that some christians consider the martial arts he’s spent his life studying a manifestation of satan.
Er, how many people were killed by Chuck Norris in his movies? Oh. Wait, those movies were not slashers so those are a different kind of killings. And everyone who died at Chuck’s hands were bad guys.
As for Cho’s claim of him being a “martyr” for the “defenseless”, that was shown with all the weapons he had and how he gunned down the unarmed.
I know this is off topic, but when I read this, I had to post to Pharyngula. Ron & Fez (on XM satellite radio) have had great discussions on religion gone mad, evolution, etc. They’ve debated the “God hates fags” people. They’re a comedy show, and Ron here is pretending to be on the side of a creationist. Just think deep sarcasm to get Ron’s jokes:
Rocket: If you know about Charles Darwin, he came up with that theory before there were cars.
Ron: Rocket, here’s where the real answers are…the bible.
Rocket: That’s what I think too.
Ron: Thank you! I had a feeling that you and I were going to agree on that. That science can’t be proven, but the bible can. And you know why? That’s the word of God.
Ron: Rocket, how old is the world?
Rocket: 6,000 years.
Ron: TOPS! I’m saying at the outside, 6,000 years.
Fez: Not 400 million?
Ron: No, no, no, no. 6,000.
Ron: The only thing that can be proven is the bible.
Rocket: Right, because the bible is eyewitness accounts…
Ron: Eyewitness accounts of Noah’s Ark, and the giant with the slingshot. That stuff is proven fact.
Ron: I know you want to be a paleontologist Fez.
Fez: Right.
Ron: The dinosaurs…are fake put there by Godless communists.
Ron: Rather than listen to these learned scientists, and their machines and their computers. I’d rather pay attention to some hayseed minister that I just walked into in the Midwest. You know why?
Fez: Why?
Ron: He’s holdin’ the book. You know what that book is called?
Fez: No.
Ron: Bible.
Rocket: Well then call a spade a spade, sorry Earl, but if a theory is a theory call it a theory.
Ron: Right. And what will we call the bible, mythology?
Brian, thank you for that. I was a huge Ron & Fez fan when they were on DC radio, and have missed them ever since they went to satellite. I think popular radio show like theirs, Howard Stern’s, and Penn Jillette’s go a long way toward undoing the lies spread by their conservative counterparts. And they do it the old fashioned way–by making fun of idiocy. I love it.
Ah, but see, he was misinterpreting the bible. He wasn’t really a true christian. Not like all the other christians.
phat
A couple of quotes really stand out in that article: “The Bible forbids such emptying of the mind (Deuteronomy 18:11), calling it one of the “works of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:20)
and
“It is not surprising that people in this mental state open themselves up to possible demonic influence.”
That epitomizes the problem with religion’s mind-set, perfectly. Make people afraid of not being preoccupied with Jesus, Allah, whatever…
To continue from above…I remember, when I was young, watching an attempted exorcism, and the preacher warning us that the demon could come out the person and inhabit anyone in the room who wasn’t focused on the correct thoughts. We were taught to be focused on Jesus all the time.
That’s one of the reasons why atheists are so disconcerting to the Faithful–We don’t worship anything!
I remember the patronizing condescension they reserved for people who had ‘erroneous’ beliefs and worshipped false gods–you know, people in other countries–but they had a special contempt held in reserve for people who don’t believe in anything, who aren’t preoccupied with any supernatural being at all.. Nothing gets them scooted into a prayer circle faster than the mention of the atheist agenda.
Thank The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Seung Cho was one of theirs.
When we heard the news, a lot of groups heaved a huge sigh of relief. Gays, Muslims, evolutionary biologists, paleontologists, astronomers etc.. At least Cho wasn’t screaming, “the earth is 4.5 billion years old”, or “Darwin”.
The Xtian fundie cultists can spout their lies about Darwin and Allah and Hubble on this one all they want. Cho was nominally one of theirs and repeating lies just makes them repeated lies. It’s a wingnut thing, you wouldn’t understand. Or want to.
But really, Cho was just a nut, a severely mentally ill person who belongs to no group but his own. I have him as showing autism spectrum disorder as a kid and full blown schizophrenia as an adult. Trying to blame anything but a probable genetic brain chemistry disorder is just wrong.
The group with the least probable cause to point at Cho to further their agenda is the fundie Xtians seeing as his affiliation was with them. Fundies, Lies, nothing new here.
In one writing, [Cho] warned: “Kill yourselves or you will never know how the dorky kid that [you] publicly humiliated and spat on will come behind you and slash your throats. . . . Kill yourselves or you will never know the hour the little kid will come with hundreds of rounds of ammunition on his back to shoot you down.” In another, he sarcastically thanked everyone who had treated him as a “filthy street dog” and an “ugly, little, retarded, low-life kid.”
Wow.
Bullying is serious, and I think he may have been bullied, however so was I, and I never considered offing my classmates. Not even once. And considering what a shitty experience I had in school it rather surprises me. I guess I wanted the kind of ending like Fellini’s 8 1/2 – everyone friends.
Bullies are often bullied themselves, but I don’t feel very sorry for the guy.
So let’s settle the “atheists are dangerous, no morals, blah blah” question. Let’s all get profiled, atheists, Christian fundamentalists, everyone. ;-) See which contingent is more likely to be labeled a “Collector of Injustice.”
Of course, this is impractical but it would be instructive, as there seems to be a deep, deep well of self-loathing and shame lurking behind many if not most believers, a destructive and unnecessary burden that the “get-along” people aren’t addressing. And it’s not that I fear most people will become violent – they won’t – but that they’ll continue to punish themselves for imagined “sins.”
That anti-martial arts article is also an anti-law enforcement article. After all if wanting to use the martial arts to defend yourself is telling God you don’t trust him then so is calling on the police to protect you or catch people who’ve stolen from you. I wonder if the author of that article realised this. Nah, probably not given that there’s a footnote indicating the author thinks that wars are sometimes justified.
The guy uses the word “secular” disparagingly. Very telling.
How dare you attack the philosopher, Chuck Norris, who has done more than anyone in the world to shed light on the human condition? Shame on you.
Seriously, nice job. Strangely, this issue relates to bipolar disorder, IMHO. Society deems bipolar disorder as a certain mark of inferiority, and it is generally in the news only in a negative context.
This, despite all the evidence linking bipolar disorder with creativity, supported by the hugely disproportionate number of great scientists, authors, poets, and creative people in general that were/are bipolar. 20% of bipolars kill themselves, yet the MSM never mentioned the fact that, for instance, Kurt Cobain was an untreated manic-depressive. That was obviously the most important fact related to his suicide.
In simple conclusion, bipolar disorder is almost always seen by society as bad, whereas religion is almost always seen as good.
Here’s what you should be focussing on, PZ:
“Cho, 23, of Centreville, whose family was religious and had sought help for him from a Woodbridge church”
People trying to treat acute schizophrenia with prayer. It doesn’t work, people. These churches should be liable for damages and brought up on charges for quackery.
But they won’t.
From Wikipedia:
“Cho’s mother, becoming increasingly concerned about Cho’s inattention to classwork, his time spent out of the classroom and his antisocial behavior, sought help for Cho during summer 2006 from various churches throughout the Northern Virginia community. According to Dong Cheol Lee, minister of One Mind Church – a Presbyterian church in Woodbridge, a community in Prince William County, Virginia, Cho’s mother sought help from the church for Cho’s problems. Lee added that “[Cho’s] problem needed to be solved by spiritual power … “[t]hat’s why she came to our church – because we were helping several people like him.” Members of Lee’s church even told Cho’s mother that “[Cho] was afflicted by demonic power and needed deliverance.” Before the church could start its work, Cho returned to school to start his senior year at Virginia Tech.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung_Hui#Psychiatric_evaluation
Jesus may not have made him do it. But his parents carry a strong bit of the blame in believing that Jesus was protecting us from their son.
Hmmm, I thought the Demonic Possession theory of mental illness went out with the YEC myth and geocentrism.
Ooops, I just remembered YEC and geocentrism are still popular fallacies. Oh well.
What would have probably helped Cho was intensive treatment and stiff doses of clozapine, zyprexa, or one of the other antipsychotics. They can make a huge difference in functioning.
I ran into a patient downtown one evening who informed me that she was “cured” and didn’t need to take her medication anymore. One look at her eyes told me that this wasn’t going to end well. What followed was about 10 hours of total chaos which ended with her being picked up by the cops at 5:00 AM and taken (again) to a secure lockup for observation. So much for that theory.
All of this was quite obvious within several days of the killings, but while the iron was still hot the conservative media got the message out that Cho was “anti-Christian” or “against religion.” And that’s all they ever need to do: Spread the lie soon enough and wide enough, and people will remember it as truth. David Brooks referred to Cho as “anti Christian” in his column in the NYTimes, and NBC also used the same language (right before a softball piece on how “faith” was helping people cope with the tragedy). This is not to say that Cho wouldn’t have been homicidal if he’d not been raised a Christian, but it’s simply disgusting the lengths the Christian right went to in order to portray this kid as the opposite of what he was.
I can respect the delusional belief in YEC, well, not really, but!
Geocentrism??? What kind of moron do you have to be to actually believe in this idiocy?
Read the latest Gallup poll, discussed here a week ago.
20-25% of the US population believes that the sun goes around the earth. Not making this up, thems the facts. The Copernicians have had 400 years to make their theory known and haven’t been all that successful.
As to who they are, good question. Any geocentrists want to chime in on their theory?
My guess is that the median US IQ is 100 so half the US population is less than 100 IQ. This subset would be a good place to look.
McVeigh isn’t just forgotten by people who want to associate terrorism strictly with muslims. People develop a powerful blind spot where he is concerned. Apparently he either just doesn’t count as a Christian anymore, or a or isn’t terrorist, depending on which identity is more convenient to discard.
But really, Cho was just a nut, a severely mentally ill person who belongs to no group but his own. I have him as showing autism spectrum disorder as a kid and full blown schizophrenia as an adult. Trying to blame anything but a probable genetic brain chemistry disorder is just wrong.
As pointed out, that’s only part of the problem — the rest is a situation, family and religion combined, which led people to try to “help” this guy with fundamentalist church. This is the same problem we saw with the mother who killed her kids in Texas. Sure, there’s an underlying problem that cries out for help, but the only “help” they get is at best not effective and at worst (as in the Texas case) convinces the person that their problem is demons, because that’s what the authority figures they are getting “help” from say is the problem.
Yeah, but see… Cho was a christian in a godless world. Had the rest of the world been forced to pray in school and denied violent movies, then Cho would have been right at home and not killed anyone. See? Chuck and church groups were right!
I propose church groups take a lesson from the Virginia killings and start a “Get pious or we’ll kill you campaign”. As an unexpected bonus, it also will allow church groups to engage in their beloved “blame the victim” frolics.
tinisoli:
I remember the same thing — right after the shootings several major news sources said that Cho had written an explanatory diatribe which was against religion and that he “blamed Christianity” for the shootings. As I recall, the source for this information was a police officer who was at one of the first press conferences. He said Cho had left a message, and he had personally seen it — but he was not allowed to give out much detail. According to several reporters, however, he did reveal that the killer had verbally attacked both rich kids and “religion.” Then came a remark about blaming Christianity. I remember thinking “oh, no, please don’t let this be an angry atheist.”
What the heck? Based on what I’ve seen and read since, I don’t see how anyone — especially a policeman — would have interpreted Cho’s rant as “anti-religion.” It’s one thing for the religious right to put a spin on events. But, assuming the officer was quoted accurately — and I am not misremembering it all — something kinda odd there.
“Ah, but see, he was misinterpreting the bible. He wasn’t really a true christian. Not like all the other christians.”
yep – http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2396
Not sure where you got that number Raven — the only poll I found was from 1999, but from that Gallup poll, 79% of American got that question right — more than in germany (74%) or Great britain (67%)
Can you e-mail me? I have lots of questions :)
I reference the thread, this blog, 2 weeks ago. It has a link to the poll that you can follow.
I stated that 20-25% of US people believe the sun goes around the earth. From your number, 21% do, 100-79. Actual results are worse. A large number of people have no idea why a year is 12 months. Life must be just one big mystery to them.
blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Remember the words of Arnoud Amoury, Papal legate:
“Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet”
Which is much used by christians today: “kill ’em all, god’ll sort ’em out”
Schizophrenia certainly sounds like a probable contributor to his symptoms, but I dont recall reading about autism spectrum disorders being associated with premeditated acts of violence like this (occasional severe temper tantrums, yes, which bringing guns to school hardly qualifies as), so the implicit claim that autistic-spectrum disorders would explain his behavior is not only irritating and insulting, but factually incorrect. Mind being a little less careless with the labels?
Yes, I do mind. I read descriptions of his childhood behavior which came across as classic autism spectrum disorder. Just calling it the way I see it. If you disagree, fine, your right.
As to whether this contributed to Cho’s problems, I didn’t state that and can hardly make a 5 minute long distance diagnosis and conclude much of anything.
His adult behavior also came across as classic SZ and most psychiatrists who have seen the evidence don’t have much hesitation in labeling it such. Long before he went off, people were reporting him for bizarre and threatening behavior.
It is true the vast majority of autism spectrums don’t go homicidal. Neither do the vast majority of SZs. And many mass murder shooters are neither.
And autism spectrum doesn’t turn into schizophrenia. Totally unrelated. I suppose it’s possible to have both, but one isn’t a lower grade of the other.
#28 Wow,
my daughters (5 and 8) know all those answers. How do you American’s keep such intelligent creatures as humans so incredibly ignorant.
#34
honestly, I have no idea. It’s pretty sad and pathetic isn’t it?
my cats know the answers!
but “we Americans”? *sheesh*