Aaaaaaaaaaaaand there it is – there really are differences between women and men therefore it’s fine to discriminate against women and Tim Hunt wuz robbed.
Ophelia Benson @OpheliaBenson 3 hours ago
@jonrotten3111 Not at all. Job comes with tenure, pay, rights. Hon position does not. Hon position can be revoked at any time.jonrotten31 @jonrotten3111 3 hours ago
@OpheliaBenson so they revoked his position over his comments without giving him a chance to apologise or explain.Ophelia Benson @OpheliaBenson
@jonrotten3111 Imagine Hunt telling a group of black scientists they should be in segregated labs.jonrotten31 @jonrotten3111
@OpheliaBenson not a good analogy because there are significant biological differences between men and women, not between races
Note that “jonrotten” uses a photo of Hitchens as his thumbnail. People who use photos of Hitchens for their thumbnails are guaranteed to be assholes.
Sheesh, Tim Hunt did have a chance to apologize. And he did take that chance to say he was sorry and to explain – only the explanation was that he stood by the objectionable remarks and was just being honest. But I guess that can be written out of the narrative too.
ArrrgGHHH!!!
Even, hypothetically, if there were significant differences, then it would be all the more reason not to discriminate!!!
Imagine if someone proffered the argument that it was OK to make fun of people with Downs Syndrome because, after all, there are signficant differences… What a horrible, horrible position to adopt. Civilization’s purpose is to protect and assist and enhance the quality of life to those individuals who came up unlucky in the genetic lottery or subsequent events.
Quoting JS Hyde never gets old.
So, women are (to slightly misquote the song) “friends with breasts and all the rest”. However, in my experience, women I know are not that different from men I know except in matters of obvious socialisation. Women scientists have consistently been amongst my most valued and admired colleagues throughout my working life and so frankly jonrotton can go fuck himself.
Of course there are major biological differences between men and women. The question is whether there are biological differences in the ability to work as scientists that are sufficiently large to empirically discriminate against women in science. And the answer is no, there are not, and anyone who says otherwise is looking for a fake biological excuse to pursue old-fashioned culture-based sexism.
We discriminate against people all the time — we don’t let people with serious vision impairment drive cars; we don’t let people with HIV donate blood; we don’t let children with anaphylactic peanut allergy eat peanuts. But all of these are justified by (i) reams of scientific evidence and (ii) justifiable public health and safety concerns. Discriminating against women in science is just moronic and unfair. And if people like Tim Hunt can’t work with women, then they should be the ones who are excluded from labs.
Hidden behind this statement is the boring old assumption that women need to dress a certain way, or be segregated apart from men, because men simply cannot control themselves around women. It’s insulting to men and oppressive of women, and because it’s an invalid assumption, the analogy to racial segregation was perfectly apropos.
Also, it’s interesting that the Dawkins’ side is focusing narrowly on Hunt’s desire to segregate science labs. If women are so emotionally fragile and weepy and men are so unable to control themselves around women, shouldn’t the segregation be mandated across all professions? Let’s just go straight to being Saudi Arabia, if these things are so real. That men and women work together effectively in almost any profession you can think of, really underscores the ridiculousness of this “debate”. Hunt’s words were nothing more than a reflection of his (apparently long-held) belief that women just shouldn’t be in science, his wife and a few others notwithstanding.
@MrFancyPants, wasn’t Hunts official position that he was talking about the problems *he* had in dealing with female scientists, *his* inability to separate his romantic and professional life. I guess.
@=8)-DX, Tim Hunt’s closing line was “when you criticize them, they cry”. That’s about them, not about him (unless he has a special ability to make women cry, in which case I think we should be told).
=8)-DX, yes Hunt did say that, but he also said women were fragile to criticism and that he advocated gender-segregated labs as a solution rather than the more obvious solution of people like him learning to manage inappropriate emotions.
@Ophelia:
Yeah, he might as well go the whole hog and call himself skepticaljohnrottenelleventyone.
It would make it even easier to ignore him.
Regarding this proposition:
I find it deplorable that it is not obvious to everyone that whether or not such differences exist, the only relevant discriminant for suitability to a particular position is the meeting of the necessary selection criteria, so that any such differences are an utter irrelevance to the making of that determination… except when gender itself is a criterion.
3 things happens when you have girls in the lab. Wrong mr. Hunt, there are 4 things that happens when you have “girls” in the labs and the 4th one is that when you mess up with them, you get fucked.
Not to mention naming himself after one of the biggest jackasses in music. And I’m saying this as a huge fan of both Public Image Ltd. and the Sex Pistols (despite their many problematic elements).
Did they take away that honorary position? I thought he resigned before they could even talk to him?
Humans have the LEAST sexual dimorphism of all the primates. And how does Mr Rotten determine how significant racial differences might be?
Koreans are significantly shorter than Sub-Saharan Africans…just think of the expense of adjusting the height of lab-benches. And the poor White guys having to duck under the edge of the fume-hoods….
The least of all the primates? I don’t think that’s right. Gibbons and siamangs for instance look like twins, and then think of lemurs, to say nothing of many monkey species.
These people appealing to differences between the sexes to justify discrimination and prejudice are fools. The different outcomes are just as likely due to how we treat the sexes differently. Forcing people down particular social paths will have an effect. An effect that likely affects many issues involving sex and gender.
Some people are desperate to keep the social tools based on lies. I want to know more about why.
Here is a Great sociology book with a lot of great research studies and other information debunking common gender myths,The Marriage & Family Experience Intimate relationships In A Changing Society that debunks common sexist gender myths and how the sexes are actually biologically and psychologically more alike than different and how the very sexist,artificially gender divided,gender stereotyped,male dominated society,that is totally obsessed and oriented to making the sexes into these false ”opposite” ”feminine” and ”masculine” categories.
https://books.google.com/books?id=9Cb4Tl9SgLAC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Michael+Kimmel+men+and+women+are+more+alike&source=bl&ots=f5DuKDd00F&sig=84VtNt6eq5j5aMarYwsA8W4fpyU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq_K6UoazQAhVqBsAKHd4lBTYQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q&f=false
The Marriage and Family Experience: Intimate Relationships in a Changing Society
referenced within the product description or the product text may not be available in the ebook version.
books.google.com
Chrislawson no are not ”major” biological differences between men and women we are human people with *minor* biological differences,for reproduction,but have many more biological and psychological similarities than differences.
It really isn’t surprising at all that the sexes brains are more alike than different,( although given the fact that there is a lot of evidence from neuroscience that human brains are plastic and easily molded and shaped by different life experiences and different conditioning,and environments, and the fact that the sexes are born biologically more alike than different with very few differences but are still perceived and treated very differently systematically in every way by parents and other adult care givers, from the moment it’s learned they are a girl or a boy, before they are born it’s amazing that our brains are still more alike than different,and that we are psychologically more alike than different to despite all of this!) the clitoris and penis are very similar because they come from the same exact tissue, so does the male scrotum, the female vulva and even the ovaries and testicles.
And men even have the same breast tissue that is responsive to estrogen and they can even develop full breasts ready for a bra right away if for some reason their testosterone level goes down,the small amount of estrogen(they also have progesterone which is necessary for healthy bone development,intelligence,healthy thyroid function,an anti-depressant, in both sexes and other things for health
http://www.livestrong.com/article/290192-is-progesterone-produced-by-men/)
Is Progesterone Produced by Men?
http://www.livestrong.com
Progesterone is commonly associated with many processes occurring in the female body. But just as testosterone and estrogen–each a male and female hormone, respectively–are present in both men and women, progesterone can also be found naturally in men, and it has some significant roles in male health, particularly reproductive vitality.
that is normally in their bodies,causes this it’s a condition called gynecomastia. But of course none of all of these similarities are even recognized much less emphasized because we still all live in a very sexist,artificially gender divided,gender stereotyped,male dominated society that is totally obsessed and oriented to making the sexes into opposite artificial ”feminine” and ”masculine”categories.
Around 2003 a medical doctor said in debunking the Mars and Venus nonsense myths,( and author John Gray got his ”ph.D” from Columbia Pacific University,which was shut down in 2001 by the California Attorney General,Asher Rubin who said it was nothing but a diploma mill that was preying on California citizens f far too many years and a phony operation offering totally worthless degrees!) said that it’s false and that in humans sex differences are minimal.
This is an Excellent book by psychology professor Vicki Helgeson The Psychology of Gender 4th edition shows sexes more alike than different which tons of decades worth of psychological studies by all different psychologists has found.She also very rightfully points out that transgendering children stems from gender stereotypes that change over time and vary in different cultures,she discusses the androgynous societies like Tahiti and a few others,where the sexes are encouraged to be and are more alike in personality and behaviors.
She says she hates the color pink and dislikes dresses and her daughter born in 1998 went through a phase of loving pink at age 4,but then hated it.
https://sangu.ge/images/Psychology1.pdf