Sara Mayhew must have wanted more attention, because as tonyinbatavia pointed out in a comment, she posted another random tweet about Stephanie and me, apropos of nothing.
Learn to summarize someone else’s point instead of quoting huge blocks of text. Lazy blogging. Bad writing. Examples: @OpheliaBenson @szvan
She’s weirdly persistent about picking fights with me. I don’t know why, apart from wanting more attention (but then there are billions of people in the world, and I don’t know why she wants attention from me in particular). I don’t know her. I haven’t written about her here (except about these bizarre random fight-pickings). I haven’t interacted with her. But pick pick pick.
She did a more extended version (less lazy! less bad!) on Facebook, too. It’s a public post. (We’re not Friends, needless to say.)
The post:
Bad blogging is when you need to quote huge blocks of text. It makes me believe you’re either a lazy or incompetent writer, when you can’t make a summary of someone else’s point.
Her comments, following one by Dan Fincke:
Dan Fincke it takes a lot of work to write a good paragraph. I don’t blame bloggers for not spending their time rewriting others’ ideas when they can simply quote them for their readers and save their hard writing energies for their own original stuff. A blog is a journal, a place you sometimes just record other people’s words that are interesting sometimes.Sara E Mayhew It starts to become really lazy, like Almost Diamonds and Ophelia Benson’s blog, when it’s 90% blocks of quotes and they insert a sentence or two in between.12 hours ago · Like · 1Sara E Mayhew At that point, just link to the entire article you’re discussing. But I guess Zvan and Benson aren’t really generating content as much as just being the two old muppets in the balcony.
…four photos, of four dresses. And some writing.
Strapless dresses from SammyDress! This wholesale Hong Kong fashion site has incredibly cheap clothing prices, but my experience has been that what you save on items is made up for with very expensive shipping. Quality is typical of Chinese produced fashion—cute on the outside but low quality is seen on the inside of the dresses with imperfect stitching. Petite sizes. I haven’t yet bought a dress from them I didn’t like.
That’s good hardworking writing.
Having conceded that point, I’ll say a few words – of my very own writing, that I wrote myself! – about Mayhew’s claim that quoting is lazy and bad compared to summarizing.
The first word I’ll say about that is “horseshit.” That’s horseshit. It’s not true, not as a generalization. Sometimes summarizing is preferable to quoting, but certainly not always. If it were always preferable, why would the Daily Show use so many clips? The Daily Show is quite popular, and also well thought of. It’s both. It’s considered good tv, good commentary, good humor, good news analysis. Part of what’s good is the use of video clips that show people saying things, so that we can all see exactly what they say and how they say it. A summary would not be better than that for the purposes of the show. The same goes for the Rachel Maddow show and plenty of other shows. The same goes for many many blogs that quote extensively. Some websites do nothing but link to others’ material with a headline and a teaser – like Arts and Letters Daily for example. That’s different from writing a book or an article, but that doesn’t make it worthless.
I’m interested in language and rhetoric, in the words people use and the possible reasons why they use them and the likely effects the words will have. When I’m looking at that I don’t want to summarize, I want to give the actual words, so that readers can see exactly what I’m talking about. This is a new genre that blogging makes possible in a way it wasn’t before. I like the genre, and I use it a lot. It would have been useless to “summarize” what Rod Liddle wrote, for instance; it was necessary to give a good sample of it so that people could see his particular brand of smug laddish dismissiveness.
I don’t consider that a whole lot more lazy than posting four photos of dresses.
Which is a recipe for accusations of strawmanning and quoting out of context. Not a serious person.
Holly manure! She has the nerve to complain about you and Stephanie after have done a post like this? Where..guess what.. she did exactly what she’s criticizing you for.
Un-franking-believable.
I can see where you’re coming from, and understand your thinking. There’s an connection between your words and I, some cognizance of your intentions. I get you, in short. There’s comprehension.
Also, another donation landed in your tip jar. Use this one for expensive furs, and flat-bread cookies!
Obviously you should put a link; everybody knows all readers always click on links. Then you can respond to each point without specifying exactly what was written.
That’s how serious bloggers write. You know, not the old ones. (what’s up with all those “old” accusations?) Lazy Ophelia, she only writes 3-4 posts a day! I bet she’s laying on the couch eating bonbons in between posts.
/sarcasm
Yeah, you should be paraphrasing! Like you did with Shermer. Because, y’know, your detractors wouldn’t complain or call you names if you paraphrased.
What, they do? Oh, um, whoops.
We have here a(nother) case of heads they win, tails you lose.
Hey, I threw a donation in the tip jar, so Ophelia, you win a little, tiny bit.
Does she not realize that one of the big drivers of social media is curation? That is part of FTB as a whole is doing, with the added value of cogent commentary on the curated material. (Which is not to downplay the value of the original material that is produced as well.)
I always forget that Sara E. Mayhew exists.
That appears to bother her.
And another cookie for you, Ophelia.
Who is Sara E. Mayhew and why should anyone concern themselves with what she says?
The only time I see you use this device is when you’re responding to some tripe written by the festering pustules.
And if you paraphrased instead of quoting their emanations precisely, they would be howling in agony.
She wants your summarising to be brief to fit with her attention span? Sacrificing accuracy on the altar of Teal Deer.
I think I read somewhere that’s the central question in the upcoming Atlas Shrugged, Part III: Why Are People Too Stupid To Understand That People Are Smart Enough to Make Their Own Decisions?, but liberal Hollywood blogs are notoriously unreliable.
I guarantee you that if you paraphrased those bozos instead of quoting them, there’d be endless accusations afterwards that you’d distorted their words and quotemined them and strawmanned their position.
Ah, but what need for such accusations when they’ve plumbed the middle schools and junior highs for the the ground-breaking instant argument winner: “You probably don’t get laid.”
*Rather than cut-n-paste, I summarised bethhedrick. That one’s just for you, Sara E. Mayhew.
That’s funny; bethhedrick said essentially the same thing at Stephanie’s yesterday. It was equally unfounded and weird. I guess accusing people you don’t like of being lazy writers is the jeu de la semaine or something.
Ha! Anthony K you beat me to the punch while I was fucking around with my italics tags. 🙂
For people that like to accuse others of being drones, being part of a hive-mind or whatever, memes spread through them faster than herpes at a high school smoking circle.
I’m super quick. Just ask all the people I’ve never fucked.
[Cries silently at desk while wondering how to get out of fourth period civics class.]
I’m hastily getting in that line.
It can’t be said that you’re not a smart man, PZ.
People…
People I haven’t had sex with/
Are the luckiest people…
Sometimes summarizing is preferable to quoting, but certainly not always.
I think quoting and linking tends to be more fair and more accurate and tends to grow and shed less ‘straw’.
(Not that their aren’t some damn fine summarizers out there, and no diss intended to your summarizing skills.)
I just want to expand on a couple of my original points. One, who the fuck is she to tell you how to write your own blog?! Seriously. I would be okay if she said — hypocrisy aside and ignoring the fact that this is not your exclusive style — “I don’t prefer reading that style of blog,” but to make accusations that you somehow don’t do blogging right and to tell you that you need to learn another way? Really?! So now she’s some sort of a blogging ombudsman for the skeptical community? Nope. She doesn’t speak for me.
And, two, I really prefer not to give asswipes page views if I can help it. Quoting extensively gives me enough insight to avoid the link (and, for that matter, avoid future writings by that author). This approach, when you choose to do it, is very convenient to me and I really appreciate it.
Keep up the good work, Ophelia.
I really liked the cranky gadlys in the balcony from the muppets. I know it was meant to be a put down, and as I’m not you Ophelia, I can’t say how it affected you, but it made me smile just out of the memory of that time many a decade ago when I was a wee bairn. 🙂
Anyhooo, Sara M. seems to have a fixation on you Ophelia, what a pain.
Isn’t this about the point in the comments when Sara Mayhew does a drive-by non sequitur/lie and then doesn’t show up again to read the 30+ following comments precisely explaining all the ways her comment was utter bullshit?
The last post that Sara commented on, she told many lies that she never acknowledged or apologized for. So she decided to switch to plagiarizing unfounded criticism, just to keep things exciting.
But since Sara only targets certain feminists and not others, they must have done something to deserve it. Of course that could be the only possible reason for her bullying.
bcmystery, I took the Over for her drive-by at comment #32. Fingers crossed that she can hold out seven more comments.
Oh, hush. You probably ruin every episode of Law & Order too by pointing out that it’s halfway through the episode so it’s time for Briscoe and Logan to make an arrest.
An inverse Catch-22! They want to have sex with you soooo bad but can’t because the line never moves, which is a good thing.
@ Anthony K
Darth Vader was Luke’s father.
I didn’t realize that all the important problems inside and outside the skeptic and atheist communities had been dealt with and put the rest so we’d have plenty of time and energy to devote to creating drivel like this.
People like that are always going to be people like that. I never understood a lot of the hate and drama back and forth I see in the atheist/humanist/skeptic/whateveryouwanttocallyourself community. People just need to calm down. I agree with a lot of people most of the time and I disagree with those same people sometimes. I just think it’s more important to devote our energy to what we have in common instead of what is different.
I cast my vote for showing you’re the bigger person and not giving Sara Whoever the pleasure she probably desperately gets over being on your blog and ruffling feathers.
I jest, but you are right, bcmystery. It is long overdue for the hit-n-run comment of the thread followed by a hasty retreat to the safety of the ‘pit for the award ceremony.
Gosh, I hope it’s just a case of a late shipment of #BraveHero medals, and that nothing actually bad has happened to today’s lucky contestant on their way to Fight the Man.
Well, it just shows that Sara Mayhew can learn: she strikes out on her own (declaring Ophelia factually incorrect about Rebecca’s fundraising for TAM), she gets burned. For certain values of “burned,” that is. She doesn’t feel any internal value need to come back and admit/apologize. Members of her group, a number of whom follow closely and produce multiple screen shots of posts, tweets, comments, somehow overlook it. “Burn” in this case means having to stay silent. Far better to move with the pack to the next target so that if that argument needs to be dropped, it’s not laid at a single doorstep.
And Justin Vacula doesn’t take that aspect into account when wondering why some receive more “criticism, negative feedback, and pushback” than others. Huh, I say. Huh.
Oh, right, I forgot about all the lies in that comment that she never withdrew much less apologized for.
Now she’s raging at me on Facebook, and Daniel Waddell has posted a hahahaha hilarious picture of me and Stephanie as the two old muppets in the balcony.
It’s that kind of original content that wins them blogging awards.
Brought to you by the Subcommittee of Concerned People for Doing Nothing.
“Harassment: Maybe This Time Ignoring the Problem Will Work®”
I’ve tried Mayhew’s comic (ages ago), and I have to say, of course this weeaboo wannabe “mangaka” would put so much store in struggling to rehash what others have already done. She’s as fresh as a stadium men’s room after a double header, and even more full of shit.
And if you don’t quote enough of the piece you’re talking about…
STRAWMANSTRAWMANSTRAWMAN!!!!
Hadn’t read all the comments, looks like others beat me to that point.
So is Mayhew a professional hypocrite, or is it just her hobby?
Hey Dave! Good to see you! 😀
I have had it with her whining and moaning about Melody and Amy when it is patently clear she is brazenly abusive to other women. I have been patiently trying to have civil conversations with her. She has been rude and abrasive to me. She has lost the right to the principle of charity and the benefit of the doubt.
Ummm, if you don’t quote, but summarize, there will be a claim the the source material was not represented, that it was misrepresented, or that the summary missed some oh-so-subtle nuance of the relevant bit that was discussed.
Lazy communications: Posting One-liner jabs on FB and Twitter. Why aren’t these ideas supported and fleshed-out in blog posts? Sure, we write comments (look, I’m doing it right now!), but for those of us who demand an internet presence and attention, or have an idea to discuss seriously why not use a blog or other format which allows easily for more text and related content? (Where one can quote block of text or summarize, even?)
Sure, that sounds mature. Keep proving what a good writer you are, Sara.
I agree strongly with Tony’s second point (#22). For those of us who actually like to contemplate issues, it’s really nice to see enough of the original material to decide whether it’s worth reading or not. Quite often, I click on the link for a fuller picture, and you’ve led me to a lot of great stuff that way. OTOH, like Tony, I never click on the links from the slimy ones. This way, I get an idea what’s going on without having to use brain bleach afterwards.
I so don’t get Sara Mayhew’s deal. I hope it’s just a stage the young woman is going through.
Young? I think she’s nearly thirty. Should know better. Shes a creepy little idiot who has too much free time. She hasn’t published a chapter of her silly comic book in two years. Hardly impressive from someone unemployed.
[quote]Brought to you by the Subcommittee of Concerned People for Doing Nothing.
“Harassment: Maybe This Time Ignoring the Problem Will Work®”[/quote]
I’m concerned about doing something that actually matters. Fighting over social media about… something is just a waste of time. My life is too short to worry about what some schmuck who doesn’t like some of the things I say or write.
No one has to read this person’s fb post or other social media. People do thrive on attention and cutting them off at this level does tend to leave them without the thrill of their target responding. Someone says something “mean” to or about me on FB? I block their ass and write them off. It’s no skin off my back in regards to what they want to type. I will only police what is on my account/wall/comment section/ etc. Sorry if you don’t like that I think it’s a waste of time to police what people say on their own walls.
I think shes bored and looking for attention. I used to follow her and all she does is complain about living in the middle of nowhere and post pictures of herself online. SurlyAmy was right… she probably has 500 instagrams of herself from her room. Quite sad actually.
Yet evidently you think it’s a good use of your time to “police” what people say on their own blogs.
I just don’t get it. I’m completely lost. Where the hell is this coming from? I actually read Sara’s comic way back before this shit storm started raging (that is, before certain elevators came into the picture), and I don’t remember her being like this.
WTF happened?
Maybe it’s because I was raised by a historian, but I’ve always thought summarizing a quote is for exams, or when you otherwise are unable to check the source. If you have the source, you quote, and are very careful and honest about brackets and ellipses where appropriate.
I’m not a historian, though. like Ms. Mayhew, I work in the arts. When I direct a show, I strongly emphasize the importance of delivering lines as written — to do otherwise is to muddle and disrespect the playwright’s efforts to say things in exactly the right way. (I’ve worked on premieres, and I can tell you, they sweat blood over every adverb and adjective. Some actors, especially those who have done a lot of improv, think paraphrasing is perfectly OK, and require to be taught otherwise.)
Ms. Mayhew appears to be oddly unconcerned, for an artist, about the responsibility of fairly representing another’s work, however trivial, which is particularly important if you are critiquing.
“Yet evidently you think it’s a good use of your time to “police” what people say on their own blogs.”
How am I “policing”? All I’m doing is sharing my perspective on it. I think this divide in the skeptical and atheist community is silly and fights like this provide no benefit. I’m not saying anyone can’t or shouldn’t do or say something on their fb or blog or whatever, just merely expressing my opinion that I think there’s a better way to handle things.
Or people can just lose their shit and get defensive. I’m sure that’s been working out so well for so many people.
@ sprinkles:
Line return is your friend. It makes your comment easier to understand, if your intent is to communicate.
Well, you really have a point, there. You should take it to the group of people who have spent the last few years making coordinated attacks on chosen victims in a broad variety of venues.
Or, no, sorry, that would be silly and have no benefit. Better to just ignore them, because ignoring bullies, especially in self-affirming groups, always works. And be sure to never report their behavior to others, because then people might notice they’re bullies, and that’s so, y’know, negative.
Tip: There’s a difference between proactively calling out harassment as such, and “los[ing] their shit and get[ting] defensive”. See if you can figure out what it is. There’s an ongoing quiz.
Hey, Ophelia, it’s great to be back! Heehee!
Really? You don’t think there have been missteps made on both sides? Well, alright, I disagree, but it’s cool. The less people get a rise out of others the less inclined they are to do it. Do you think people like Sara Whatsherface would harbor and throw around so much negativity if people didn’t give it attention? Sure, she would probably still do some, but it wouldn’t be as much as when she gets 3 blog posts in a day about the ongoing interaction with her.
I dealt with bullying in my life and it was horrible, but there are ways to handle it. Giving them the pleasure of seeing you squirm just wasn’t in my playbook. If you disagree, that’s fine. We’re allowed to do that and still get on with each other well in most other things. People forget that a lot, and that’s what my point really is.
1. If you’re going to characterize other people commenting on things said about them as “policing,” then you ought not “police” them for doing so.
2. Aren’t they “just sharing their perspective on it?”
3. Who appointed you arbiter of what is and is not important in an ongoing problem of harassment?
4. When you say “provides no benefit,” you actually mean, “does not amuse me or work toward what I, personally, think are goals worth achieving.” At least own that.
5. Who the hell do you think you are?
Addendum: Obviously you did not feel moved to comment on this, absolutely unbidden, and completely ignorantly, as if you just randomly tripped over Butterflies and Wheels and had no interest or knowledge at all in this blog or in the slymepit. There’s a motivation there, somewhere, that you’re not sharing. Otherwise this would have been too boring or obscure for a random unknown commenter to chime in on.
Please tell us what prompted your contribution.
1) If people want to act like people can’t or shouldn’t say what they want on their own blog/wall/whatever then yeah, it’s policing. I’ll disagree with someone (like I’m doing now), but it has little to do with what I think they can or should be doing.
2) They are, and I’m disagreeing. What’s your point?
3) Oh, sorry, I forgot I’m not allowed to just disagree. It’s nothing intended as harsh or hateful, I’m just sharing that, in my experience, interacting with people who pull crap like Sara does are just a waste of energy.
4) No, when I say “provides no benefit” I mean it “provides no benefit”. It doesn’t address a lot of serious problems causes that we have and it certainly mends no bridges so we can move on in a positive manner. From someone who has been a neutral party watching a lot of this drama go down it really just feels like a big pissing contest. If you disagree, that’s fine. I’m ok with that.
5) I’m a just a person commenting the same as you. We disagree and that’s fine. Here, have a cookie. I love your avatar. It’s pretty sweet.
Who’s “we?” I don’t think we share all the same goals. And no, I don’t believe you just showed up here randomly.
Drop the “I’m disagreeing” bullshit. We’re past that. No one’s trying to steal your frozen peaches.
Now, why are you being so prescriptive (which is distinct from “disagreeing”)?
Ok, so even though I’ve been lurking and watching contributors in the community for years and just kind of picked this (and a few others, thanks) to start commenting on I have an agenda. Yeah, no, I don’t. I’ve been watching this back and forth from a lot of sides for years now. It makes me sad to use the word “years”. I really thought people could show the better side of humanity and try to work through things.
It’s just something that has been frustrating to watch for a while. I like a lot of people in the atheist community on the internet and seeing battle lines drawn is uncomfortable for some of us and is actively keeping us out of it. I could comment everywhere and meet up with cool people at Buffalo Freethought or CFI and hang out, but the “us vs them” instead of “us and us” keeps a lot of us away out of nervousness about saying the “wrong” thing or disagreeing with someone. I’d like to see people prune the negative aspects and people and move forward in a positive direction. Crazy, I know, but I’m an optimist at heart.
You are not a “neutral party.” You’ve taken an affirmative stance that lecturing Ophelia is the more important thing to do as compared to taking your “please be nice” act over to the actual aggressors. Stop this facile pretense.
I don’t care what it “feels like” to you. What it “feels like” has nothing to do with the actual ethical rights and wrongs occurring in this conversation.
I also don’t care that you’re “OK” with disagreeing. I didn’t ask for your emotional temperature.
You’re awfully snotty and bossy toward people who’ve put up with a whole lot of shit that you haven’t had to put up with. Why do you believe they owe it to you to listen to your carping and behave as you want (just stop—don’t even start with the “I’m not telling you what to do I’m just Blah Blah Blah).
Again, what is your motivation?
You’ve not been paying attention if you claim to have been watching this conversation and yet you just blithely use “both sides.”
Cut the shit. Seriously. Stop bullshitting.
FUCK YOU. Who the everloving hell do you think you are complaining about how it’s “uncomfortable” for you to see people fighting? How the hell do you think the actual targets of harassment feel? Huh? Do you think they like it? Do you think this might just be a goddamn bit harder for Ophelia to take, as the target of it, than it is for your ass to be “uncomfortable” having to watch it?
Jesus fuck, but you’re the living end. Do you even hear yourself?
So offering a comment is lecturing now. Ok then…
We disagree and that’s fine. I think it’s worth a shot to try another way with people like Sara, you and Ophelia don’t. That’s fine too.
I don’t know how someone making a post on their own wall, even if it’s negative about someone, is a gross violation of ethics and you do… which, again, is fine.
You’re just kind of assuming what I have and have not put up with, but I’m snotty and bossy. Alright, I’m ok with your thinking that. If people don’t like what I say they can just cruise on over it or respond like you have. It’s no skin off anyone’s back.
You have your stance and I have mine. I like to think offline or perhaps in another topic we’d be able to sit back, enjoy a good cup of coffee, and have a great conversation. You probably don’t think that, which is fine.
Have a great night.
Shut the fuck up. I don’t break bread with people who think it’s all “both sides” and that their namby pamby entitled precious uncomfortableness overrides much more important concerns. You’re being an asshole.
I didn’t say it’s all both sides on every single thing, it’s just gravitating a lot in two directions on a lot of things.
Either way, pot, meet kettle. You see, now I’m going to use the very tactic I’ve been talking about.
Again, have a great night. A good white russian is great before bed. Perhaps you should try having one :). Either way, ta ta.
You’re weaseling and you curry favor with aggressors with faux neutrality. It’s easier to dispense etiquette advice from Self-Absorbed Mountain when you’re spewing it the aggrieved party, I know. But it’s wrong, and you’re shameful for doing it.
@sprinkles:
OK, let’s go back to your artful debut:
“Dear Muslima:”
You started right out in holier-than-thou lecture mode. Apparently you are the arbiter of what is important, and what is drivel. You know what’s a big problem in the “skeptic and atheist communities”? A loud, abusive subgroup that exists to harass, marginalize, and silence outspoken women. Those who are working to solve that serious problem by exposing it to scrutiny deserve the strong support of anyone who cares about the long-term health of these “communities”.
Ah, you see the last three years as “hate and drama back and forth”? That’s a pretty severe cause/effect fail. And your prescription for dealing with abuse? “People just need to calm down.” Our local middle school has better policies than that, but I’ll be sure to let them know about your awesome solution. Also, the women’s shelter and the sheriff’s department. They’ll be grateful for the insight. Also? I have nothing in common with obsessive harassers. Even if they’re atheists. If you feel a commonality with people who behave in a sociopathic manner, then, goody for you. Go be with your people.
Ya, right, all about ruffled feathers. Like I said, those who are working to expose this nasty mold to sunlight deserve our strong support. Ms. Mayhew, and others in her clique, may eventually find that lying down with those particular dogs is not worth the fleas — especially if she ever happens to disagree with the mob.
You know what makes you a “bigger person”? Standing up in the face of abuse for the long-term benefit of your community. Others are doing the hard work, but you’re just sitting on your status quo.
Fsssssh. What is it about the “skeptic” nym people?
Which is what Ophelia is doing. Which you styled “policing.”
W.h.i.c.h. I.s. W.h.a.t. Y.o.u.’.r.e. D.o.i.n.g.
People criticize other people’s ideas all the time. In fact, criticizing ideas is kind of a “thing” with skeptics.
And bloggers criticize the words and ideas of other bloggers. Are you following me?
That’s what Ophelia has done here. She’s “shared her perspective” on Mayhew’s words and on one of Mayhew’s posts. Which you styled “policing.”
So when the subject under scrutiny is tougher than “Bigfoot: Real or Legend?” some big brave self-styled “skeptics” are afraid to take a stand and express disagreement? ‘Cause somebody might judge the merits of their ideas and their ethics? Because the big happy homogeneous meetup fun times aren’t so fun for ya’ll anymore? Aw shucks. I don’t give a fuck.
Just to summarise, skepticksprinkles has been watching from the sidelines and is pissed off that the conflict hasn’t been resolved to his or her satisfaction.
So,
Thanks for the help, you fucking asshole. Do you stand by while firefighters work and heckle that its taking too long for them to put out the fire? Do you yell out, “Have you tried water?” as if you honestly believe you were the fucking first to come up with it?
Assholes and liars.
How did my grandpa* always say:
Great people have their work acknowledged on its own.
Others try to shine by flinging shit at them.*
*rough thranslation
skepticismandsprinkles:
Here’s something that Justin Vacula is saying on his blog, and no, he’s not getting more specific than this:
He’s written a monstrous long, boring, and ridiculously biased post about “Intent is not magic.” Yeah, biased, even though it mentions no specifics. Those who agree with him are charitable, more productive, open-minded, and more skeptical. Those who don’t (by using “intent is not magic”) act hastily and unfairly. They assail and disregard and are quick to assign blame and even malicious motives. They arrogantly assume.
(I did get a laugh when he started bullet pointing “thoughtful” questions when he asked “Are people really intentionally being mean to you?” when he’s supposed to understand what “intent is not magic” means well enough to argue against it.)
But look at that quote again. What exactly and where is this stuff happening so that it’s a growing societal concern for skeptics? Imagine those same words in the mouth of someone using Jessica Alquist as their poster girl. They fit precisely. What, then, are the differences?
We know that it’s “injured” faith that’s the sticking point for the religious. What’s the injury of Sara Mayhew, Reap Paden, Justin Vacula, the Slymepit? How would the “injured” skeptics tell religious believers that they’re wrong to make such a statement but the “injured” skeptics were right to do so? As far as “intent is not magic” goes, if Justin Vacula destroys that within the atheist/skeptic community, how can we tell religious organizations that they can’t hide behind their intentions when their damage comes home to roost?
The fact is that you’re not asking these kinds of questions but are instead moaning.
Without fights like this, your skeptical and atheist community becomes hypocritical and weak. I don’t care if you don’t like it; I don’t care if Lee Moore tells Time Magazine that he doesn’t like it. I don’t care if our “enemies” get some glee (temporarily, if at all, I believe) out of it. Either the skeptical and atheist community agrees that our tools can be used inside the community just as quickly as outside it, or we have no reason to be a community.
Thank you for demonstrating so well why people characterize the commenters of FtB’s as rabid assholes. I stand by my view that a lot, not all but a lot, of this is petty and it’s not constructive anymore. To those not involved in the shit slinging and not ok with battle lines being drawn it looks like a bunch of high schoolers fighting on facebook.
You clearly disagree, and that’s fine, but I seriously doubt that I’m the one with the problem here.
Oh hi, Sprinkles.
That seems to be the nexus, fulcrum, focus and solar point of your scepticism so far as you have demonstrated here.
Another cookie for Ophelia (been too busy baking etc to follow the blog lately. Still catching up.)
skepticismandsprinkles
Please be so kind as to give a link to your post in the Slymepit where you told them to about “us and us” and “moving forward in a positive direction” and “calm down.” Because a true neutral party should be scolding both sides in this dispute.
skepticismandsprinkles, you may want to go back to lurking for awhile with the expressed purpose of gaining some self-awareness. If psanity’s message @66 wasn’t a wake-up call, re-read it, this time for understanding. Then carefully re-read Stacy @67; those words were written for you and it appears that you are missing some really important points that make your response @71 look like weak sauce. Then re-read @68-70 and take all those thoughts to heart. Try to truly understand what your (ironically) defensive crouch is not letting you comprehend.
Listen, you aren’t contributing anything here. You don’t own the high road. You aren’t any less petty than you are accusing others of being. You have posted your own version of drivel. You haven’t added anything that actually matters. And now you have lost your shit and gotten defensive. The most confounding thing that you lack the self-awareness to realize any of this while still trying to act like you have the answers that everyone else should employ.
Go ahead, go back to lurking. Come back when you have a better grasp of yourself and have something to contribute.
Yes, skepticismandsprinkles. I too would love to see exactly how the pitters (or any other habitual atheist/”skeptical” complainers about FtB) responded to you when you went to their blog(s) and told them to stop devoting such a huge amount of their time and energy and output to attacking feminists.
.
You did tell them that, didn’t you?
.
…. oh? Why ever not?
Cool story, thanks for continuing to prove your detractors right.
Man, here I thought that quoting and citing when you’re discussing and analyzing particular words and ideas was a sign of academic writing, not laziness. If only I’d known during illegal that I could just paraphrase everything in all those research papers. It would have made things a lot easier.
Skepticsandsprinkles, the very first sentence of your very first post @30 was sneering and hostile. Go back and read it. Then read it again, if you can’t figure out why I said that.
I haven’t been commenting on this thread, I’ve just been reading. And it’s very, very obvious you came on this thread with a chip on your shoulder, trying to stir up a fight so you could call FtBers “rabid assholes.”
What any genuinely neutral party would conclude from this is that Ophelia, Stephanie, et. al., really are under attack from very sick, hostile parties, you, of course, being the current case in point.
You can keep asserting that, but all I’m seeing now is a lot of overly defensive butt hurt. Here’s a challenge, re read what I’ve posted without assuming someone’s just out to disagree for the sake of it. I’ll let you guys reflect on that. I’m skeptical you’ll get it but that’s alright. People have voiced their support of me elsewhere and that’s enough for me. And no, they are neutral too and find fault with your “enemies” as I do.
I’ve read what you have said. It is very poorly written and shows a lack of understanding on your part. When you say something like “I like a lot of people in the atheist community on the internet and seeing battle lines drawn is uncomfortable for some of us and is actively keeping us out of it.” it shows that either you are not interested in social justice or that you do not realise that that is what this is about. Well, no one is going to compromise of social justice just so you can feel comfortable, and if you are simply ignorant, you are simply being rude by commenting.
Reading scepticandsprinkles blog it is clear that he/she are not concerned about making women feel comfortable in the atheist/sceptic community, just so long as he/she feels comfortable.
Seems a rather selfish attitude to me.
Skeptisismandsprinkles,
Take your bullshit and go away. No one is forcing you to read or comment here. So don’t. Go be above it all and self-satisfied elsewhere. Stop heaping scorn on people who are being harassed ans unfairly maligned.
You came here with an ax to grind and you ground it.
People like you remind me of the saying, “Benign pain is pain other people feel”. This isn’t important to you. Fine. It doesn’t have to be. But telling others to suck it up for your sake is selfish to the point of making you an insufferable asshat. On top of that you called people silly and petty just for daring to talk about their harassment on their own blogs. Maybe instead of policing other people’s blog content, you could better spend your time in self reflection.
Yeah, pointing out your glaring hypocrisy, morality fails, misinformation and just plain rude behavior is soooo rabidly asshole-ish. Decent people would clearly thank you for your scolding tone and total lack of insight and empathy.
You know, if someone is upset because there are people in the atheist/sceptic movement who are vocal in saying that women should be treated better within the movement, then I don’t care.In fact, if people doing that upsets you, I am happy you are upset. I really do not care about how upset you are about it.
Dear Tick Sprinkles (sorry, this is really how I read your name and it makes me smile)
The opinion that I am of less worth than a man, that I am more prone to being irrational, that I’m not as interested in skepticism because I was born with a vagina is not one that should be tolerated. People like the cop who told me he wouldn’t dust for prints after my stalker tried to break in, because it took me 4 hours to stop hiding in a closet and call the police and therefore how was he to know I didn’t simply have an argument with my boyfriend, deserve to have their metaphorical throats ripped out. If you think what the cop did was fine, if you think that because I’m a woman I *am* less skeptically inclined, YOU are the problem and deserve to be chewed on. If you do NOT think that, then you should agree that some opinion do NOT deserve time, space or the respect of being heard.
Apparently you have forgotten what actually happened. She declined. She didn’t rip him a new asshole. She didn’t go on a tirade. She briefly described the episode and said “Guys? Don’t do that.” Don’t ask a woman back to your hotel room at 4 in the morning when you are alone in an elevator with her especially after she just stated she was tired and going to bed. It’s rude, and can be scary for those of us who have been raped, sexually assaulted, or had close calls.
After being stalked at 17, semi-stalked again at 19, and then followed by a stranger through downtown at 1am when I was 20 I had real problems with panic when ‘trapped’ or alone with men I didn’t know. It’s better now, but I still have this spurt of terror in certain situations. So, guys. Don’t do that.
This is also not what happened. Almost the moment TF got here, he began going on an antifeminism screed. He *actually* said that he should be able to touch/bite a woman’s leg if he wanted without having to ask permission. He was irate over the idea that he should ask before touching someone. Think again to my experiences. If a strange man stuck his hand on my leg, I’d have a massive panic attack and then physically attack him. Fight or flight.
Sexism and misogyny isn’t an intellectual endeavor for many of us here. We have experienced it, and its emotional impact first hand. And with that in mind, how are we supposed to stand alongside these people who are telling us we’re being hysterical, and unskeptical, and overreacting to a ‘little disagreement’ (death threats, rape threats, constant misogynistic abuse) to what we’re saying, and if we’d just be nicer everything would be okay? WHY would we want to stand alongside these people? Should one of my veterinarians who is Asian stand alongside and support a client who says that Asians are moneygrubbing cheapskates and they shouldn’t work with animals because all they do is eat them? Should people of color be fine with someone who is a member of the KKK? Should someone who is homosexual be totes okay with with those people who think all the gays should be jailed or killed, because on other issues such as how pretty rainbows are they happen to agree?
Oh dear. I quoted entire sections to include the context. I’m being a bad writer too.
skepticismandsprinkles @ 79–
I did reread your posts. They are worse than I thought. It looks to me like a well-thought-out double bind. If people take exception, that’s proof FtBers are too hostile. And if they agree with you they should tone it down– well, of course that’s proof they are too hostile, too.
I’m going to add my voice to everyone else here, and ask what you are posting on the slyme pit, asking them to tone down the attacks. I don’t expect you to name the other allegedly neutral parties. But what kind of venues are they posting in? Or are they taking your word for what’s going on? Because all I can see here is a very hostile person with a complete lack of self awareness. Which, needless to say, is not the kind of person whose advice most people would want to take.
Nice catch, hoary. The classic no-lose double-bind. But you’re being unfair. skepticismandsprinkles is totes skeptical because support.
What a tool.
Thunderfoot is a sexist shitbag who
a.) Would not respond to my request for him to help me report the rape threat I received while commenting on his blog and
b.) Cannot be arsed to set the record straight on the Slimers’ lies that it was actually me who made the rape threat against myself.
Sally, to this skeptic b.) would have been a more plausible allegation against Tf00t. 0rally.
ok… and? I support people feeling comfortable at conferences, and women being treated equally, and all the other wonderful things that you do. Really, take off the blinders, the thing I was, and still do disagree with is the idea that fighting like high schoolers on fb is the way to handle things.
People have different comfort levels and sometimes you just have to understand that there isn’t going to be one collective stance on things. Agreeing to disagree is not a bad thing. the assertion that I’m “ok” with sexism is mind blowing because a) I didn’t say that and b) you’re talking to someone with predominantly male representation college major and a holds a job that predominantly employs males. I’ve dealt with being touched without being asked on a daily basis. I deal with sexism all the time and I’m against it, and fuck anyone who implies otherwise.
For fuck’s sake I get what this is about and I would go so far as to say we agree on similar ends. Our means are just totally different and… That is ok.
So, sprinkle, did you just post the sum total of how you have addressed those questions to the sub-lime pit? That is at least how it reads to me. You have been asked more than once, if you recall.
Perhaps what you are spraying here is less than sparkling. Care to present any counter-evidence? It would be a first.
Oh, sorry, forgot I’m obligated to fulfill random internet people’s wishes.
Nah, I have a day job, and you guys are beyond ridiculous. I see why they call this place a “cancer” in the movement. Peace out.
Hey mansprinkles, don’t you ever get tired of humping those heavy goal posts around?
See, when you enter a debate sneers ablaze, you have already spent some of the inherent benefit-of-the-doubt automatically granted to honest participants.
So you have a day job to keep, on a Saturday, do you? Tending Mom’s basement boiler perhaps? Flames getting too hot, better get yerself into her kitchen. Chinchill boy.
That day job never stopped you from demanding others on the internet fulfil your own random wishes. As a skeptic, I tend to doubt your sincerity, more and more. Empirically.
“they” call “this place” “a “cancer”” in “the movement”? They do? Who do? Who is “they”? What “movement”? What is the connection between “this place” and “the movement”?
Don’t quit that day job.
skepticismandsprinkles @95–
If you have, in fact, posted criticisms to the slyme pit, it would be an easy thing to post a link. If you have not, it would be the work of a moment to write, “I’ve never posted there.” I’m sure you could do either without endangering your day job. If you do not wish to indicate whether you have communicated your criticisms to the slyme pit, you should be aware that you have completely undercut your own argument. And that argument clearly has taken up more of your valuable time than posting a simple link to the slyme pit would have.
More generally, you seem to be following the pattern of GirlWritesWhat and Sara Mayhew. (Perhaps you are Sara Mayhew?) You are criticizing others for being angry about bad treatment, but you appear to be oblivious to your own anger. Perhaps you need to focus on how “being touched without being asked on a daily basis” made you feel. Because it appears that something has made you very, very angry. And you haven’t convinced anyone that Freethoughtblogs was what did it.
No, it’s not ok. Your means is for the victims to lie down and take all the harassment the bullies throw because that would make it appear the “disagreement” has disappeared and so would make you feel happy. What about the feelings of the victims? Are they supposed to sacrifice their happiness so you can pretend everything in the skeptic world is rainbows and lollipops?
You really are a selfish, narcissistic, spoiled brat. As long as you’re content, everyone else can go to hell.
Ulysses @ 99–
According to S&S’s post @93, she does “lie down and take all the harassment the bullies throw.” I don’t know the woman, but I can’t help suspecting that’s what is making her so angry.
Yeah, I’m also getting a sniff of the wurst brat, spoiled. Irregardless of gender. *
I’m now ready to declare that flogged horse dead.
Lasagne. Or pizza out. Whatever.
Enough with the piles now, just another pita. I check out.
Next time remember, Selfsprinkler, that respect is earned, not commanded. It’s a two-way thing. And your earnings in that regard were foolishly squandered and turned sour.
* No, I didn’t bother to look at your bog. Why should I? Just a random wish.
hoary puccoon @100
You’re probably right. She puts up with harassment at work so everyone else should be just like her, a doormat for the bullies.
Fortunately I’ve never been bullied. In high school I was a first string football linebacker and jocks don’t get bullied. But I’ve been watching the bullying from the slymepit and its predecessor at Scienceblogs for the past couple of years. I try to be a peaceful man, listening patiently to my sociopolitical and theist opponents and answering them in calm, logical, measured tones. But if I was talked to the way Ophelia and Stephanie and Rebecca Watson are talked to and about by the likes of Justin Vacula, then no more Mr. Nice Atheist. I would have a serious case of “you better know a good dentist because your teeth will be scattered on the floor.” So I really have trouble understanding people like skepticismandsprinkles, especially when she makes it obvious she’s only complaining to the victims, not the bullies.
Ulysses @ 102–
I don’t think you, or anyone, owes it to S&S to be understanding. If she’s taken more than she should I’m sympathetic. But that doesn’t give her the right to pass the toxic garbage on.
I tend to be overly wordy on my blogs. My favourite thing about your writing Ophelia is the canny economy of words. You put malicious idiocy of all kinds on display and blow it to smithereens with a word or two. That takes skill and experience. And style.
Onca again, having “skeptic” or similar in your ‘nym correlates well with the lack of being one. Wishful thinking instead of rational thinking.
Thank you for your insightful writing, Ophelia.
So, Skeptic-Sprinkles, I noticed that you completely ignored my correcting of your assumptions about certain individuals and things they did and said. Good job, that.
Why should I hang around people who think I’m less than human? I had a paragraph dedicated to this. I don’t care if we agree on every single other thing ever. If they can’t treat me equally because I have a vagina, I have NO desire to be around them at all.
I’m going to go full Godwin here. My boyfriend is Jewish. I just asked him if he’d want to “agree to disagree” with someone who agreed with the Nazi’s about the Jews. His response was an emphatic “NO!” because there is a *fundamental* disagreement. We’re not having a minor dispute with these people. This is a *fundamental* disagreement over the status of women and how they should be treated.
If you actually read what I wrote, I never asserted you were okay with sexism. I said, and I quote:
None of that says that I 100% believe you are okay with sexism. It does say that if you agree with a lot of what is being said, namely that women lie a lot, that they aren’t skeptical enough, that you are displaying the same problematic behaviours. If you are NOT agreeing with those statements, then you should not be encouraging them by giving them air time.
Now onto some questions:
If you’re experiencing so much sexism, and you are against it, why are you encouraging us to be friends with sexist individuals? Have you NOT reported sexual harassment to your bosses? How have you responded to being touched without permission? Did you politely ask them to stop? Did it change anything or did they smile at how cute you were being?
Because here’s the thing. If someone did that to me I would loudly, vehemently, vocally oppose that behaviour. I would let the perpetrator know in no uncertain terms that such contact was extremely unwelcome. I am not afraid of upsetting the status quo. I am not afraid of annoying or upsetting a coworker who is annoying and upsetting me. And that is how we have been handling things on our end.
Those “others” you’re talking about, who think we are a cancer? They want the status quo. They’d rather we ‘play nice’ because they don’t want hurt feefees. They don’t want to challenge their assumptions. They want nothing to change so badly that they are making rape threats and forums dedicated to hating individuals who want to treat you and me like actual real people. Fuck playing nice if some guy thinks he has the right to touch me. Fuck that. NOTHING CHANGES if we go along and don’t make waves.
Why can’t they go pull these posts at the slimepit and on Tfoot’s blog and so on? Why do they always only come here?
“Oh oh oh! I’m a “neutral third party” and this petty fight is petty and I don’t like it and it makes us look bad!”
Have you said any of this on the Slimepit?
“I don’t have to follow your commands! I’m leaving now because y’all are hurting my feelings!”
Are we just easier to “criticize”, or something?
If you won’t say it at the Slimepit, then DON’T FUCKING SAY IT HERE! If you’re only yelling at us, then you are NOT A NEUTRAL PARTY!
How hard is this shit to understand?
Seriously…
So because you have to put up with it, you are not concerned about others having to as well ? That might not be what you are wanting to say, but it is what you are saying. Either you mean it when you say it, or you are a lousy communicator. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are not an idiot, and thus mean what you say. However, if you want to admit you are a bit a stupid, I will not disagree.
I would have thought it’s the least you could do in return for your hectoring.
Oh, you mean to say you only talk the talk and don’t walk the walk? How very disappointing.
Here’s the thing: demonstrate your neutral credentials to us by going to the Slymepit and giving them much the same lecture you gave us. If you don’t we will doubt your neutrality and continue to show you scant regard.
Simples.
Yes, it’s funny how most of the alleged ‘neutrals’ will cheerfully lecture us, but don’t have the stones to go to places like the Slymepit and give equal treatment to the opposition. One could almost imagine that they are not neutrals at all, but pompous toads who thought they could pile on to a soft target. After all, we don’t go Full Metal Stalker on our enemies, unlike some ‘pitters.
Then of course these alleged neutrals get into a snit with us because we show them slight regard and give them a savage kicking for not practising what they preach. They skitter off howling at the injustice of it all and calling us a cancer on the body politic.
Still, it’s interesting to speculate how we’d treat the rare individual who came here and gave us a dressing down, having done likewise to the ‘pit…
I think if someone came here to complain and could prove they had in fact done exactly the same at the pit they would at least have demonstrated some integrity. Not much discernment, perhaps, if they can’t tell the difference between attacking sexist behaviour on the one hand and harassing feminist individuals on the other, but at least some integrity.
I dealt with bullying in my life and it was horrible, but there are ways to handle it. Giving them the pleasure of seeing you squirm just wasn’t in my playbook.
Funny, you don’t say what WAS in your “playbook.”
I didn’t say it’s all both sides on every single thing, it’s just gravitating a lot in two directions on a lot of things.
Got any examples? Or is this just another lazy content-free putdown?
Hehe, I caught this on NPR yesterday. Plagiarism: Maybe It’s Not So Bad