What about this then? From “Coffee Loving Skeptic” on Facebook.
Via Alex Gabriel.
Butterflies and Wheels
Gnu atheism, women's rights, internationalism, universalism, and gossip
[…] outrage from the community manifested in a hate-campaign and bullying of P.Z. Myers on Twitter and The Underbelly Of Society. A call for resignation as the leader of Freethought Blogs was heard from many […]
[…] put forth in opposition. FTB has a few critics, and has far more braying jackals who fling around lazy and low-rent insults […]
[…] devoted to slandering Freethought Blogs as a whole because many of us have feminist leanings. They photoshop things to try to humiliate us, they gain unauthorized access to our private email listserv. And anyone associated with us […]
[…] devoted to slandering Freethought Blogs as a whole because many of us have feminist leanings. They photoshop things to try to humiliate us, they gain unauthorized access to our private email listserv. And anyone associated with us […]
[…] devoted to slandering Freethought Blogs as a whole because many of us have feminist leanings. They photoshop things to try to humiliate us, they gain unauthorized access to our private email listserv. And anyone associated with us […]
[…] put forth in opposition. FTB has a few critics, and has far more braying jackals who fling around lazy and low-rent insults […]
[…] further demonstrated by his recent behavior, he’s a slymer, his style of argument is to post photoshops like this, and I had no interest at all in ever conversing with […]
[…] further demonstrated by his recent behavior, he’s a slymer, his style of argument is to post photoshops like this, and I had no interest at all in ever conversing with […]
That’s not bullying, because it only hurts people he doesn’t like. (And people with any sense of graphic design.)
A little humor there.
Very little.
this is the guy who was, in fact, unjustly accused of calling Watson a ‘cunt’ when in fact that was somebody else. He had, it turned out, not been that guy. He had used the term ‘feminazi’ instead. Neither Watson nor Myers has ever apologized to the poor man. Awesome ‘shop skilz though. Especially since he was probably hogglin the whole time. It’s not so easy 1-handed.
Yes and no. PZ had mentioned him, and Rebecca said in reply, oh that’s the guy who. That means most people who saw Rebecca’s tweet didn’t know what guy she meant, because they would have had to click “view conversation” to find out, and who does that? Only the truly interested.
It’s not the case that Rebecca said “Tony Ryan is the guy who.”
Wow, Chas, so this guy was upset at being maligned as the kind of guy who would call Rebecca a cunt?
Well, THIS will sure show everyone! He’s SO OBVIOUSLY not that type of guy!
His defamation claim fails, for failure to prove damages, because everyone knows he’s a misogynist twit anyway.
Yes, and he just made a totally random nasty remark about Hayley Stevens on Twitter, based on meeting her at QED in March. But DJ Grothe responded that his experience was quite different. Points for DJ! Seriously.
DJ has struck me more as someone who doesn’t understand harassment and is afraid to learn for some reason than a real ally to the misogyny crew. They’ll keep claiming him, though.
Are you kidding me? I have never felt so sad and demoralized in my life. This hurtful mock-up is simply one of the more glaring symptons of a known but previously ignored cancer spreading through the movement. It has tainted so many and become malignant in many, many more. There are those that are incurable. We know who some of these are. It is simply time to say goodbye to them. I have been the victim of someone’s constant harassment mockery. I would never have thing to do with a person that would have the ability to do this to another person. Shame on him!! Shame!!
As “bullying” goes, this is pretty mild. And poorly done and unfunny (to say nothing of ludicrously inaccurate – PZ is at least TWICE that tall), but that’s a whole separate issue. Their use of the term “bullying” is stupid – you don’t have to match it.
If the charge was that FTB is immature, that would be one thing. But that’s not the charge, and this isn’t bullying. It’s just the equivalent of making fart noises with your mouth so your 6 year-old nephew will giggle.
Nope. Sorry, Crommunist. This is bullying. This is part of a concerted effort to humiliate and shame and silence any woman who would speak out like Rebecca does. It’s not harmless and the men doing this aren’t 6 year olds who can be forgiven for not understanding social graces.
I gotta disagree with you, Cromm. The image is nowhere near as innocuous as a fart noise.
Just because a skepti-misogynist talking point (PZ’s motivations for advocating feminism) is expressed in a crappy photoshop job instead of so many words doesn’t make it less hurtful.
Dismissing this kind of image as silly will only encourage these people to do more photo manipulations.
Just ask Anita Sarkeesian if she felt that the alterations of her photos was not bullying.
It is bullying.
Thing is, it’s a kind of bullying that can be somewhat more easily dismissed than others. I’m not saying it SHOULD be, I just mean it often is…
…and it CAN just look stupid and go nowhere.
But it’s not intended to. It’s intended to be worse than a tweeted or blogged insult.
Inept or not, successful or not, these things are attempts to make the bullying go viral. They’re intended to pop up constantly and haunt the person potentially for years. The people who make these things (just like the people who make lolcats) are always hoping that their handiwork will be placed in a prized spot on the giant Mom’s Fridge known as internet memes.
But unlike lolcats it’s meant to wound, at least a little, every time its seen. And it’s hoped to be seen a lot.
Intended to be a self-replicating insult.
Considering the context of accusations that PZ just wants to get in Rebecca’s pants, and similar accusations made regarding Surly Amy, I think this is just another bit on the pile.
If FtBs oponents ever used logic, I would keel over as if dead from shock and not be able to move for several minutes.
This is one of those caricatures that spikes the cartoonist rather than the subject.
One thing is getting increasingly clear:
* I don’t want to “heal the rifts” in the skeptical/atheist movement.
* I don’t want to “work together for a common goal”.
* I don’t want to “find a way to coexist”.
* I don’t want to “seek common ground”.
* I don’t want to “just get along”.
* I don’t want a dialogue.
* I don’t want friendship.
As long as the trolls who have been flooding every skeptical website, youtube channel, forum, or blog with toxic waste since a woman had the audacity to say “Guys, don’t do that” are part of the “movement”, I want nothing to do with it. That movement is dead to me. Buried and forgotten. Gone beyond the event horizon, and nothing can bring it back. And it’s a good thing.
However, that doesn’t mean I am less dedicated to critical thinking. I think Natalie Reed gets it just right:
Atheism? Sure!
Skepticism? Absolutely!
Critical thinking? Hell, yes!
The skeptical/atheist movement? I would rather die!
Tony Ryan has become a bitter fool – he pops up in TFs blog posts and others making the same ‘joke’ point riffing on PZs criticism of his sense of entitlement.
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/skepchick-embrace-victim-hood/#comment-4493
I could not even muster the energy to take the piss out of him. I did feel he was a little justified in his annoyance and Rebecca would have been better off saying sorry for the c*t thing separately then pointing out he wrote an article about her being a feminazi. But it is up to her how she handles dimwits on the internet not me.
This satire does not represent my views, I should disregard it and mock the author together with my peers. Hahaha.
Another day I don’t have to question my worldview in the slightest, how swell!
…regardless, the image above is rather poorly done and unfunny. Even disrespectful. I agree with Bjarte Foshaug that this rather sends a message of escalation and strengthens the sense of not wanting to have a dialogue more than anything else.
Let’s put this in perspective. Yes, I posted a copy of this picture to facebook. It’s up to you if you find it funny or not. That’s subjective, and you’re entitled to discuss that about me.
However, don’t start making accusations that the picture came “from” me. i.e. created by me, or initially posted by me. If you want to attack the source/creator then do so, but I’m afraid I don’t know who that is.
Are you ‘outraged’ because it’s me? Or is it the picture itself, and the intentions of its creator?
OB:
That was him being nice. This is when got nasty.
…when he got nasty, rather.
Tony Ryan – Coffee Loving Skeptic says:
Because otherwise you’re a nice guy right?
Got caught plotting character assassinations? DISTRACT! DISTRACT! DISTRACT! EVERYONE IS BULLYING US!
Seriously, you guys need to have an iota of self-examination. You need to get over your collective narcissistic personality disorder and actually admit that you’ve wronged people, that you’ve overreacted, and that you’ve made mistakes.
Pointing to supposed bullying by other people, and vastly exaggerating how TF regained access to the email list (You fucked up. Unsubscribe != ban. He didn’t “hack” anything), just makes you look petty. Own up to your own failings, or nobody is ever going to take you people seriously again.
Moderatating voice says:
That’s a bit like Hitler accusing Anne Frank of antisemitism.
…oh and a note to the quotemining distorting idiots: That was hyperbole, meant to illustrate an abstract point. I wasn’t accusing anyone of being like Hitler, or portraying anyone as being like Anne Frank.
Always love a Godwin 🙂
Tony Ryan #18
You’re the guy who disseminated the picture. We can dump on you because of that. You saw a picture and thought: “Here’s the woman who accused me of using the wrong slur when I insulted her and the man who wasn’t impressed by my misogyny, I think I’ll post this picture where people can see it.”
How do you know what he thought? Are you claiming some kind of psychic ability, or are you just constructing a strawman?
So discussing how best to respond to someone within your community who’s being thick (by your estimation) is now character assassination. Good to know.
I seem to have been singled out at Coffee Loving Skeptic’s facebook page for my comment.
Tony Ryan, that is just about the most pathetic defence I’ve ever read in my life. For crying out loud, if you think you’re being unfairly criticised, then respond to the criticisms. Explain why the image is acceptable. Saying you shouldn’t be criticised because you didn’t create the image, just liked it enough to use on your blog, is kindergarten logic.
hyperdeath says:
Moderatating voice says:
I see we’re dealing with one of the opposition’s intellectual heavyweights.
I don’t even know what point the image is trying to make. It’s only funny in a bizarre, non sequitur sort of way….but again, it’s a standard bullying ploy to feminize and infantilize those who oppose you — it’s precisely the same phenomenon as a high school kid calling someone “gay” or like a girl.
Oh, and Tony Ryan is a known asshole.
PZ, I am known as an asshole to some, and you have the right to call me that, but I don’t see how anyone could come into these comments sections and put forward any sort of opposing views in an adult way without soon being dragged into ad homs like the ones you (and other commenters) resort to within seconds of a comment being made.
It’s this behaviour that antagonises people into polarised & aggressive reactions.
As for the photo – Yes, I personally, subjectively, find it funny, especially in context of the original ‘mothering’ cover combined with how the relationship between PZ and the Skepchicks appears to be. It might be a mean opinion that I hold, but it is just an opinion. I smiled at the picture. It tickled my sense of humour. I might have a crap sense of humour. So be it. But, it doesn’t change the fact that I neither took the time & energy to create the image, or begin spreading it across the internet. I shared it in the same way I share a thousand photos, many of which mock religious people, but those are seemingly ok because religious ‘fools’ are an easy target?
What Bjarte Foshaug and Natalie Reed said. This has already gone way beyond misunderstandings or miscommunications and there is no sign of it stopping anytime soon. These people are hateful and nasty and this cartoon is just another of the endless examples of that. I’m sorry Rebecca has had to put up with this nonstop hate campaign.
@Moderatating voice
Thunderfoot lied about it being about preventing someone from getting fired, which is his justification now. And he stole private emails and forwarded them. If you think it’s a case of not being properly unsubscribed, he STILL violated a confidentiality agreement.
@Tony Ryan – Coffee Loving Skeptic
Rebecca is a fellow atheist and skeptic. She made the horrible mistake of thinking people would care that she’s getting hate mail from other atheists threatening her with all sorts of physical harm, and thinking women have a place in this movement that isn’t on the level of a second-class citizen. For this she gets called a nazi, a cunt, and a bitch, among other things. She’s been the target of nonstop hate for over a year. Don’t you think it’s kind of messed up that she is being targeted by people who are supposed to be on the same side? And that it’s as hateful, if not more, than the average person in this movement gets from religious nuts? Think about that.
Sorry, but likelihood is your ‘confidentiality agreement’ is legally bullshit
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-08-26/business/ct-biz-0826-chicago-law-20110826_1_disclaimers-legal-obligations-binding
So, your vindictive dreams of having Thunderf00t put in prison for showing you for the kind of people you really are will probably remain unfulfilled.
Also, hyperdeath – You made a one sentence comparison to Hitler. The idea that one needs to quotemine (how do you quote mine a single sentence??) to find that you made a ridiculous Godwin-y comparison is laughable. You screwed up, went to far, and I think you immediately realised this but are to proud to admit so.
I don’t care what. That image is utterly vile.
The douche who’s circulating it, Tony Ryan, is it? Yeah. When his testicles finally drop, perhaps he can use his words instead of poo flinging like this. His mother must be so proud.
Moderatating voice says:
Whose “vindictive dreams”? Are you just making this up as you go along?
Godwin’s Law doesn’t automatically apply to any sentence that uses the letters “H”, “I”, “T”, “L”, “E” and “R” in that order. It applies to unjust comparisons involving Hitler or Nazi Germany.
I didn’t in any way compare you to Hitler or the Nazis. Such a comparison wouldn’t make sense anyway, as Hitler wasn’t particular known for hypocrisy, or lack of self awareness. Instead, I compared your ridiculous reversal of facts to a hypothetical reversal of facts that happened to involve Hitler. As for quotemining a single sentence, a good example would be extracting the word “Hitler”, and ignoring the surrounding context.
No, the second post was when I realized that the usual gang of intellectually challenged manchildren, desperately searching for a “Gotcha!” argument, would deliberately misconstrue what I wrote.
@ 22 – No, see, that’s what I said yesterday – there was no “plotting character assassinations” – there was discussion of this whole fashion for talking shit about “FTB” in blithe disregard of the harm to “innocent” bloggers. (“Innocent” meaning innocent of whatever it is about a few of us that so enrages the FTBophobes – our rudeness, our feminism, our dogmatism, our rude dogmatic feminism, whatever.)
#36 callistacat
Just wondering what these people “on the same” side are actually doing to promote atheism/skepticism? Except for Abbie Smith, with her ERV blog and a few talks I have seen on youtube (which are quite good), I haven’t seen any of these guys out spreading the word to the public at large.
Do they actually do anything but hang around the internet, looking for someone to put out a post, somewhere, anywhere, with “PZ”, “Watson”, “FtB”, “feminists” and a few other keywords, so that they can swarm it with their cookie-cutter idiocy and outrage?
C’mon, Ryan, what is re-posting crap like that doing to promote the atheist pov, defend atheist interests, or fight the religious who are trying to infiltrate our schools, government, and courts?
Do you ever say anything that’s not a lie?
Ian, I strongly suggest you consider that this image does not seem as big a deal to you because men are not vilified for their sexuality the way women are. When one is ascribed third-class status (second-class being for “virtuous” women) for having a sexual identity, these kinds of images and this kind of visual rhetoric is a great deal more threatening. It is also a threat against our allies (including you, of course) that they will be mocked, belittled, and shamed for speaking up, which has the added bonus of telling outspoken women, “If you speak up, we will do everything we can to make you as alone and marginalized as possible…”
Also, can we just say that this pretty well establishes that Rebecca was right about Tony Ryan all along? Sure, maybe he doesn’t use a particular word (and it was necessary and proper of her to correct that–in exactly the tone she did!), but I must say I am not AT ALL surprised that this is the sort of person whom one could easily misremember as using such a slur! And another thing, it’s not like non-misogynist people just happen to start re-posting and liking this sort of shit when they’re frustrated. It’s more like this sort of entitled asshat can keep his misogyny under wraps and when he gets frustrated it comes gushing out.
Oh? and:
= “Yeah, honey, sorry I hit you, but you know how I get when you make me angry…”
Look, idiot, “just an opinion” is no fucking excuse WHATSOEVER. “Jews deserve to be gassed” is an opinion. “Black people shouldn’t be let near my water fountain” is an opinion. “My god doesn’t want gay marriage” is an opinion. When your opinions are shit, they do real harm to real people and entrench bigotry and encourage people to act on their own bigotry (and egg on your own acts of bigotry, and yes posting the blatant misogyny of this image IS an act of bigotry). Read up on microaggressions, for goodness sake! And when you share an image, you are promoting that image and its message and content. Otherwise, I’d expect you to uncritically share a bunch of Pat Robertson quotes if you really shared things without any regard to their content or your agreement with them.
And the fact that you find it “subjectively funny” in no way obscures the fact that the whole set of assumptions propping up this particularly odious little ‘shop is INEXTRICABLY based in misogyny–that outspoken women deserve to be shamed and sexualized, that men being less dominant than women is unusual or undesirable, that a man can’t take a basic pro-feminist (and thus pro-human-rights) position without being seen as emasculated, that it would not be seen as at all unusual for two male-dominated blogs to collaborate or promote each other while a male blogger who respects his female colleagues is threatening and needs to be mocked and discouraged with images like this, and so much more. Someone who didn’t believe these revolting underpinnings of misogyny wouldn’t find the image funny, because without these references there’s nothing being communicated. You sound as idiotic as those Republican representatives who sent around pictures of the White House lawn with watermelons when Obama was elected and then insisted they just found it funny but really “didn’t mean anything racial by it.” Look, when your prejudice is so ingrained you can’t even verbalize it to yourself it is NOT a point in your favor!
I am so fucking sick of the “it’s just a joke” excuse. It is not just a joke when it is specifically designed to hurt someone. Can we just be clear on this?? Yes, some ignorant people may laugh but others that can see it for it’s cruelty will know what it is, a passive-aggressive insult from one that needs to inflict pain on others to feel secure.
Ryan, nobody gives a shit that you didn’t create this. That is irrelevant. Do you get that yet? You have the responsibility for the posting of it.
Also, can we just say that this pretty well establishes that Rebecca was right about Tony Ryan all along?
Oh I already knew that. (Apart from the issue of the word “cunt” that is.) I guess that’s because I’m friendly with several young UK skeptics whom he taunts frequently. Or maybe it’s because I keep track of various taunt-campaigns, and he keeps turning up to do his share. He’s a very unpleasant man.
@hypatiasdaughter
Are you kidding? Even if that were true (ha), are you saying it’s OK to vilify Rebecca and PZ and the entire network of bloggers here because you don’t believe they “do enough”? Funny, I’ve seen PZ Myers do a lot of those talks on youtube. Also you might want to catch Rebecca’s excellent talks for CFI (before all this nonsense started). And CFI’s Women in Secularism Conference with Ophelia Benson, Sikivu Hutchinson, Rebecca Watson, and Jennifer McCreight. Jennifer’s talk at the Imagine No Religion Conference. The Skepchick campaigns to raise money for women to attend TAM. Shall I go on?
People are aware of all the shit flung at Skepchicks and FTBlogs because were in the same community, not because they go out of their way to google this nonsense.
“Cookie-cutter” outrage? Yes, fun. Ask Ophelia and Rebecca and women at Skepchick and all the bloggers here, I’m sure it’s been a blast for them to be targets of this nastiness.
Only meant to highlight a blast, but I guess that works too. What am I doing wrong with the tags?
#47 Whoa, callistacat. I’m sorry you misunderstood my post. I agreed with your posts 100%.
“these people on the same side” refers to Ryan and his fellow slymepitters. As you said, they claim to be supporting atheism, but I only ever see them show up to insult and slander Rebecca, PZ and FtB in cookie-cutter posts saying “Rebecca is bad and FtB is evil”. They keep claiming they are the “real face of atheism”, but how is their sick, twisted personal vendetta against the FtB, Skepchicks, and Rebecca doing anything to support the movement? They’re not.
I have been a regular on Pharyngula for years. And I think I have seen every talk by Rebecca, PZ and Ophelia that have been posted to YouTube. Rebecca is my hero. I don’t know where she gets the courage to keep fighting the good fight in the face of the abuse and in some cases, criminal abuse, she has been subjected to.
I mentioned Abbe Smith (which I see as I re-read my post, could be misconstrued if you didn’t realize that my first sentence was referring to the slymepitters) for two reasons.
1st – when the slymepitters post, they always claim that “everyone now knows the truth about FtB and Skepchicks and they are going to be dumped by the movement”. Which is such a big laugh, as the FtB & Skepchicks crew are the bedrock of the movement, the conventions and conferences. If FtB and Skepchicks got dumped, the only person they really have is Abbe. That would make for a really slim speaker line-up.
2nd – to be fair, I have been impressed by some of Abbe’s talks. I was shocked and baffled as to why she let her blog become the hangout of some of the worst scum in the atheist movement.
#34 Tony Ryan – Coffee Loving Skeptic says:
You do realize there’s a difference between ad hominem and plain old insults, right?
Definately bullying.If you dont think it is, you are a bully. If you go to great lengths writing and defending it, you are a blatherskite and a bully.
I’d say that’s a pretty big “yes”. You might want to work on that.
@Hypatia’s Daughter
Oh wow, sorry about that! :\ I was a little puzzled that someone with such a cool ‘nym like Hypatia’s Daughter would defend that group.
When there was an apology given for the “would it be immoral to rape a Skepchick” business I followed the link and browsed the comments a little. Some were saying how did Ophelia or FTBloggers know about their “Rape a Skepchick” thread unless they specifically googled for it. I thought that’s where you were coming from.
I’m a bit new here…
#54 callistacat
Sorry to cause the confusion. I am the world’s worst blogger. My posts are either tl;dr or short and cryptic.
The photo isn’t all that funny.
But the article on the Lonely Elevator had me ROLF with this quote:
“The pictures were quickly reposted on Facebook and outrage from the community manifested in a hate-campaign and bullying of P.Z. Myers on Twitter and The Underbelly Of Society. A call for resignation as the leader of Freethought Blogs was heard from many places.
“P.Z. Myers went too far,” Ophelia Benson commented, “he must step down as our leader, especially from that stool, it looks ridiculous!”
C’mon Ophelia! That part is funny isn’t it?
It’s a side note to this discussion, but I enjoy the repeated theme I’ve seen in comments about how TF’s actions are not legally actionable. Okay, fine: he’s not a criminal for violating an e-mail confidentiality agreement.
He’s just a giant asshole who invades people’s privacy and causes them to fear for their well-being and safety because he has an axe to grind. Oh yeah, loads better that way.
“Do you ever say anything that’s not a lie?”
Well, if he’s a Thunderdouche fan, no. lying is literally all they have left.
If it’s funny, how come nobody’s laughing?
Picture doesn’t show up for me.
It can’t be long before the homophobes realise it’s safe to come out of hiding.
Closely followed by the racists.
That is to say, I suspect that Grothe will soon get thrown under the bus.
One can dream, at least.
As far as humor goes this is about as lame as it gets. Yeah this would be a fail. It almost seems like calling it bullying gives it more credence than it deserves. Its just pathetic.