Question from a reader:
“I recently had a rather disastrous experience where I attempted to engage a group of feminists in an amicable discussion, where I tried to present a male perspective on the issues they were raising, in the hopes that they would either point out where I was mistaken, or take the perspective I presented into consideration. I was rather violently accused of attempting to tell women how to be feminists, and that I was a horrible sexist monster.
Maybe my approach was not proper, or maybe they were simply jerks. But even going in I understood that this was a sensitive issue and tried to brooch it carefully. I would really appreciate it if you, a person I’ve come to look up to, and a feminist, would make a post about how a man should go about participating in the discussion, or if we should even try.”
First, a disclaimer: I am but one feminist, and a “new one” at that. Not all feminists may agree with me, but this disclaimer fits perfectly with the advice I’m about to give:
Listen.
This may seem like obvious advice, but a lot of men fail at it. They may think they’re listening, but in reality they’re not. Hearing sound and not interrupting women is a good first step, but is still a lot different from actively trying to understand what they’re saying.
Now, I’m not trying to point the blame finger at men. Plenty of men are good feminists, and plenty more genuinely try to understand. It’s just human nature to go into these sorts of situations on the defensive. I know when I’m called out for saying something sexist or racist, my first instinct is to defend myself. But more often than not, when I step back and calmly think about the situation for a while, I realize I was in the wrong.
And that’s hard to admit. When we see ourselves doing something that doesn’t fit in with our perception of ourselves, we generate cognitive dissonance. “I’m not sexist, so of course I didn’t say something sexist!” And that’s an uncomfortable feeling. But if men want to participate in feminism, that’s something you’ll have to get used to in the beginning. You’ll be amazed how many little sexist things you unconsciously have picked up from society, and it can be rough getting over that at first.
Now, to listen, you have to have someone to listen to. I sprinkle my blog with feminist issues, but like I said, I’m no expert. My blog is probably “Feminism Lite” for you guys – a good start, but just the appetizer. My advice is to lurk around feminist blogs.
This is exactly what I did when I first started getting into feminism. Most importantly, don’t stop reading a blog just because they write one post you disagree with. Or many posts you disagree with. The first time you hear an argument, you may be too defensive to be able to honestly assess it. Sometimes I had to hear an idea many times from multiple angles from multiple people applied to multiple situations before I really understood the logic.
And a key word here is lurk. Assume that while you are still a feminism n00b, you are going to say some pretty n00bly things that you will later be embarrassed by. In a perfect world feminists would swoop down, coddle you, and inform you about all things feminist. In the real world, it gets real fucking annoying after a while. Imagine how you feel when some theist rehashes the same ol’ creationist argument that has already been debunked a thousand times. You get pretty annoyed, right? And most people will attack and tease them, rather than reply thoughtfully.
The same thing is true of a lot of feminists. We get tired of hearing the same old bullshit from the patriarchy, so some of us are on short fuses. So read a lot, and comment rarely at first. Increase your comments as you increase your understanding. If you do comment and think you’re about to say something stupid, you probably are. And if you still feel compelled to post that, add disclaimers and actually try to be nice about it. Misguided But Nice Dude will be better received than Pompous Jackass.
Here are some blogs dealing with feminism I enjoy, with asterisk indicating ones that also frequently talk about science or atheism. I still don’t agree with everything they say, but again, it’s a learning experience, and not just about mindlessly agreeing with everyone:
Evil Slutopia
The Fat One in the Middle *
Female Science Professor *
Feministe
Feminisnt (NSFW)
Geek Feminism Blog *
Greta Christina’s Blog *
Pandagon *
Violet Blue (NSFW)
Womanist Musings
And since this is all about listening… Ladies, what advice would you give men on how to approach and participate in feminism? Specific tips? Blogs to recommend?
This is post 28 of 49 of Blogathon. Pledge a donation to the Secular Student Alliance here.
More advice from an old-hand male feminist: remember that the basis of feminism is treating both men and women the same way you wish to be treated. The root of patriarchy is treating the genders differently.
I just tell people straight up, “Look, I’ve got 4 sisters, my mother builds log cabins and breaks horses. She broke her water with my brother while carrying a 50lb sack of flour. She had seven kids, is nearing 60, and my youngest brother was proud as hell when he could finally beat her in arm wrestling.” I am firmly of the opinion that a woman can do whatever the fuck she likes, be it staying at home as a mother, becoming president, or anything in between. The job, title, or whatever, should go to whoever does the job the best or brings a new approach, merit is the only thing that matters, unchangeable characteristics have no bearing on the only question that really matters; “Can you do the job, or not?”I personally don’t feel the need to defend my egalitarianism to someone who thinks I’m not “feminist enough” or sensitive to the issues. Look, we all have struggles, the only way to change that is to expect equality while demonstrating competency. It’s horrible that our legislature is anything short of half female, but a lot of women are going to have to run, and maybe lose, before we get to that point. Even in this day and age, some candidates will lose votes because they are female, but you keep that grind up until it’s no longer a novelty. Don’t be discouraged, the avant garde becomes passe to the next generation. Someday, no one will give a whole lot of thought to having a non-white president. It’s been done, it’s old news. So you women keep kicking ass and I’ll keep being egalitarian, and eventually, everyone else will catch on.
A good place to start is unpacking and understanding yourmale privilege.Also, Google, “mansplaining”. While you may feel that you were merely trying to contribute to the conversation, you may have been doing any of the things associated with the term. And there are a lot, so read many different articles and posts about it and all it defines.
So I just googled “mansplaining” and read through a few articles, and came away with a fierce sense of indignation. But, in the spirit of Jen’s post, I’ll wait an hour or so before I let that indignation become my opinion.
In addition to Jen’s suggestions, I would add -Be aware of the backgrounds of many of the women you’re dealing with. I don’t mean know specifics about each individual poster, but do a lot of reading and increase your awareness of the world women live in. It is different from your own.In any group of feminists of reasonable size (or women, for that matter, but the feminist groups are where it comes out as a huge issue…), many women you are talking to have been assaulted, both sexually and non-sexually. Many have been raped, or had a loved one who was raped. Many have suffered through abusive relationships. Most of these have been told, in some fashion, that it was somehow their fault. Violence and discrimination aren’t just words to us. It’s something most of us deal with on a *daily basis.* And for those of us who have been physically abused, even talking about it can cause flashbacks. It is very easy for a man, who has never had to live in this world, to think that he is being considerate while in some way dismissing or trivializing the very real trauma that the women he is speaking to have gone through, and may still be dealing with. I’m watching a very long, very frustrated and angry thread on Pharyngula right (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyn… now that has several instances of this issue. Men who think of themselves as progressive feminists are insisting that they’re just trying to be fair and reasonable in their assessments, and they’ve got women who have been assaulted and/or raped going for their jugulars for insensitivity to the issues these women are discussing. (This has been going on for more than 500 posts now; start reading around 300 for the most condensed illustrations of what I’m talking about.)So my advice to you is, know the context. Don’t tell an angry assault victim (female OR male OR anyone, for that matter) not to let their emotions come into it. That’s a surefire way to get anything you say dismissed, because it proves that you’re looking at things purely from a patriarchy-privileged point of view. Listen, and try to understand, and if someone says that you’ve made a sexist or dismissive comment – DON’T TELL THEM THEY’RE WRONG. Go back and read what you wrote, and understand what they found offensive about it, and work from there.
A simple thought that perceive by others to be provoking? Not a good idea of cooperation. Just think of the positive result in this negative showing of appreciation.
Guys, something to remember here: there are some women who are feminists who are also complete jerks, and you shouldn’t bother talking to them. They aren’t jerks because they are women, hey aren’t jerks because they are feminists, they are just terrible people. They want everyone to feel terrible for being male, and often for being female but not “feminist enough.” Just bad folks all around.It is important that you not look down on women or feminists because some people are jerks, but there’s absolutely no reason to tolerate bad manners or terrible behavior just because it comes from a woman. It is also important that you not use those rude people who happen to be women as an excuse to engage in sexist behavior. There are plenty of men who are pretty worthless human beings, but you wouldn’t blame all men for it. You shouldn’t tolerate anyone who tries to hang all of the crimes of males against females on you personally. So make damned sure that you don’t use language that blames all women for the mistakes or defects of a few. Their gender has nothing to do with why you should avoid them, so don’t use gender as an insult towards them.And for the women: we both know you have plenty of reason to be angry. You don’t need me to tell you, and I’d be an ass if I tried. I just hope that you’ll try to remember that a cultural offense against women cannot and should not be hung on the shoulders of any random individual male you meet. I’m not the oppressor. Believe me, I don’t have enough power to oppress anything bigger than my cat, and he still mostly gets his way. Most guys are on your side if you give them half a chance. Most people are good, so treat everyone around you like you want to be treated, and most of the rest of it works itself out.
There are issues that are called feminist that I don’t think are truly feminist. That’s when I get in trouble. People think that just because women are effected that it’s automatically a feminist issue, but when men are effected too, or when most women are opposed to the issue, I don’t consider it a feminist issue.Anyway, the post earlier about the woman that had video of her being sexually assaulted put in a GGW video had some women really upset with me simply because I believe that the law was followed, even though I didn’t believe it was right for them to put the video out.It’s rather dangerous to make comments, since often if it comes out of a man’s mouth it’s just plain wrong in some women’s eyes.
Let me make a recommendation to go and read Shakesville.http://shakespearessister.blog…The Feminism 101 section is a valuable resource. This post inparticular is especially powerful: http://shakespearessister.blog…
Read _That Takes Ovaries_ http://www.thattakesovaries.or… Then read it again, and maybe one more time. Each time you read it, try to imagine, really put yourself (as much as humanly possible) in the shoes of the women and girls who contributed, and why their stories are so meaningful – to them and to other women.
Thank you Jen, and everyone who commented. I have to admit, I have a hard time with this. I’ve always approached my education by talking my way through it. I tend to explain concepts to myself aloud when I’m alone, and I’m that annoying kid in the front who asks half the questions in the class. I do want to learn about this, because I feel like I have something to say. Maybe by the time I’ve learned about it I won’t have anything to say anymore, maybe not.Either way, thank you for your contributions to my education.
I love my guy because he does genuinely try.With several well aimed blows to his manly pride over the years (we’ve been friends for 7, deeper for shorter, obviously) he’s come over to the side of the male feminist.There are things he could never really understand because he’ll probably never experience them, but he listens, usually. When he disagrees and the proceeds to talk down or over me I point it out to him until he gets the hint that he’s being disrespectful and is very apologetic. That doesn’t happen often, though. I admit, I’m guilty of doing it to him sometimes too. Or I revert to debate team days and shriek “OFF TOPIC!”We often discuss rape culture, attitudes towards abortion, among other things. It’s wonderful because even if we don’t always agree, the discussions bring us closer together.So guys, I would suggest actually getting into discussions with the women around you. Talk to your mothers, sisters, girlfriends, etc. They’re far more likely to be forgiving when you’re offensive and will listen to you more than faceless people on a blog as well. Plus, the fact that you want and are willing to talk about these issues may just deepen your respect for one another.
This. And on a related note, it’s worth noting that a (very small) proportion of self-described “feminist” blogs and communities have degenerated into what are essentially personality cults and disputing any statements the blog owner or community leaders (or any strongly worded statement by a female member of the community) make will be dismissed in a high-schoolishly sneering fashion regardless of the contents of the argument, and with the postulate that the dissenter is male and motivated by a desire to “shut women up.” Feminism is prescriptive movement – it purports to tell people how they should behave – and unfortunately ANY prescriptive movement or meme can easily be hijacked by people who simply enjoy bullying others. Ignore these people, do not waste your time and goodwill by attempting to engage with them, and definitely don’t form opinions of “feminists” in general based on them.
Ok, I have to wonder if the guy who asked this question is Freddie from tigerbeatdown. [see http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/… and http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/… and http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/…]
Relatedly, the bulk of this post applies to gay rights as well, particularly with regards to inadvertently making a slur of homosexuality. People frequently here, “I’m offended by that,” responded to with, “It’s cool, I have gay friends,” to which I generally say, “Me too, which is why I’m offended.”
Something I’ve found to be very useful:Lurk on a feminist blog post for a while until some idiot comes along and posts something stupidly anti-woman. Like – really, really, really stupid. Then tear it to shreds. It’s good for getting into the mindset.My personal favorite is a recurring trope: “Women didn’t always sleep with me when I wanted them too, and it made me feel bad. Therefore, misogyny is the fault of women.” Seriously – this one actually comes up. They hide the inanity of the ‘logic’ over about ten paragraphs, but it’s there if you’re willing to unpick it.
Thanks for the input!I threw off the blinders of conservative religion 8 yrs ago, along with its sexist BS, and re-entered the dating scene 5 yrs ago with a much freer view of sexualiy and women. My female friends outnumber my male friends by at least 10:1!Ironically, my conservative background serves me well, as I never learned the Player’s game & many of my friends appreciate the fact that I’m not a user…and confide in me.I am both shocked and enraged at the abuse some of my best friends have endured at the hands of men, and not religious men either! I am angry at the disparity in employment opportunities for EQUALLY qualified women, etc., etc. Above all I am quite amazed at my ignorance of the woman’s world, despite my interest in them!Among the many things I am beginning to reconsider from a freethinking perspective, feminist issues are among them. I have a long way to go & appreciate the advice here and above, to spend some time just doing what I’m doing…listening…before diving in with my two cents!