Recently there’s been some talk about periods among Freethoughblogs bloggers. A rather famous TERF wrote some tweets about how women are “people who menstruate.” That’s not correct. It’s wrong to imagine that only women can menstruate (so can trans men and non-binary people). It’s also wrong to say that if you don’t menstruate, you’re not a woman (a lot of women, including cis women, do not have periods for various reasons). Periods are not what defines an individual as a woman. There are various groups of people who have been assigned “female” at birth and identify as women but do not have periods:
–Elderly women.
–Women who have had a hysterectomy.
–Some of the women who have had an endometrial ablation.
–Women who choose to continuously use hormonal birth control.
–Women who are malnourished or very physically active.
–Some women with PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome).
–Women with various genetic health conditions.
–Women who were born intersex.
And, yes, of course, there are also trans women who do not have periods either. Welcome to the club! Statistically, trans people are a small minority, thus trans women are only a fraction of all the women who do not have periods. It’s funny how in their attempt to redefine the word “woman” TERFs came up with a definition that excludes so many cis women. Simultaneously defining “women” as “adult AFAB people” and “people who menstruate” is impossible, because both of these groups of people overlap only partially.
Anyway, some people who have periods are not women. This means that there exist people who are not women but need period hygiene products. Discussions about periods are often phrased so as to assume that everybody who experiences menstruation is a woman.
First question: why the hell are menstrual pads, tampons, and menstrual cups called “feminine hygiene products”? Not all people who need those items are “feminine.” As usually, non-binary and trans AFAB people are hidden from existence and erased from human language.
Pink menstrual pad packaging and a store shelf labelled “feminine hygiene.” Ouch!
Moreover, since trans men and non-binary people also can experience menstruation, there are people who would prefer not being forced to buy tampons that come in a pink package and are advertised for “ladies.”
Do you need a menstrual cup? Good luck finding one that isn’t pink.
And when you finally find a menstrual cup that isn’t pink, it will probably come in a pink packaging.
Here is a list of various brands that sell menstrual cups. Just look at their brand names! Venus Cup, Diva cup, Athena Cup, Bella Cup, Blossom Cup, Dutchess Cup, Eva Cup, FemmeCup, FemmyCycle, Fleur Cup, Lady Cup, Lily Cup, Misscup, Pixie Cup, SheCup. What the fuck! Do you really need such ridiculously feminine brand names?
Come on, marketing specialists! I prefer to live as male. I am not going to be happy about a product that is marketed exclusively to people who are attracted to words like “she,” “femme,” or “lady.” My preferred pronouns are either “he” or “them.” I am not feminine. And don’t even try to call me a lady!
And trans masculine people like me aren’t the only ones who will cringe whenever we are forced to buy items that are actually called “feminine hygiene products” (why can’t people just call those things “menstrual products” or something like that instead!) and come in a ridiculously pink package with over the top feminine aesthetic. Not every person who experiences menstruation likes pink color. There exist butch lesbians. There exist straight cis women who simply do not like feminine aesthetic. Why can’t companies who sell period products market them in more gender neutral terms so as to have a broader appeal?
Tampon packaging
Judging from the packaging, these tampons are intended only for cis women who love pink color, wear skirts, love high heels, like jewelry, and have long hair. Oh right, they must also be thin and look young and pretty.
To be fair, there does exist a couple exceptions, there are a few brands that market their products in more gender neutral terms.
OrganiCup
For example, here is a brand that doesn’t use feminine names or aesthetics in their packaging. Do you think this one is the product I personally Use? Actually, no. Unfortunately, this brand doesn’t sell any products that would fit me in terms of size.
Menstrual products are made from different materials, they come in different shapes and sizes. And one size does not fit every person who has periods. Thus I cannot automatically pick the only product that gets sold in a non-pink packaging.
My rough estimate is that at least 80% of all the menstrual products are sold in pink or sickeningly feminine packaging and their marketing is aimed exclusively at feminine cis women. If I am buying something in a supermarket, then they won’t have products from ten different brands so that I could choose the one that isn’t marketed to feminine cis women. On top of that, I still need to pay attention to sizes and materials so as to pick something that actually fits my needs.
If I buy online, my choices are wider, but it is still challenging to pick something I can live with when at least 80% of all the products on the market are off limits due to their marketing/brand name/packaging. Now, of course, I could suck it up and just buy the pink box anyway and live with it (unfortunately, I have had to do exactly that way too often), but on some level I do hate to financially support brands who disrespect my lifestyle choices and whose marketing I loathe.
I hear a lot about “people who menstruate”, but why do we never hear “People who ejaculate”?
Are ejaculators less important than menstruators?
The pinking of menstrual products has got worse over the years. Back when I menstruated the product I got came in blue packaging with slashes of various colours to indicate size, and they weren’t the only brand that was not pink by any means.
stepppenwolf @#1
What’s your point?
(I’m not a fan of cryptic comments that make no sense. I’d appreciate more clarity.)
Also, considering age of menarche vs age most current states consider legal adulthood, a lot of people who menstruate are not yet women, and this conflation has all kinds of dangerous consequences wrt how societies handle child-rape and minors’ control of their reproduction.
This comment has been deleted by Andreas Avester, because it violated this blog’s commenting policy, found here.
It’s wrong to imagine that only men can ejaculate (so can trans women and non-binary people).
stepppenwolf, you are confusing me, too; I thought you perhaps had a point to the effect that TERFs basically focus on trans women and basically ignore trans men, but then you wrote #5.
The conjunction of “I hear a lot about “people who menstruate”, but why do we never hear “People who ejaculate”?” and “It’s wrong to imagine that only men can ejaculate” seems incoherent to me.
(Do I need to elaborate on why?)
—
Andreas, I suspect the packaging stereotyping bothers you more than the packaging colour; after all, the product is the product, the packaging is what you throw away.
John Morales, are you saying that trans* and non-binary people are incapable of ejaculation? That only AMAB men ejaculate?
Apparently I do need to elaborate.
No, I’m saying that you are the one who actually brought it up, specifically to say it’s not a thing that’s brought up. If it’s never heard (other than from you, apparently), why do you think it’s imagined to be so?
(Analogically, when a post about infibulation comes up, someone inevitably comes up with “but what about foreskins?”)
Probably because a lot less effort goes in to erasing men than goes into erasing women.
People who ejaculate is no different to people who menstruate in trying to erase a group of people.
Fine. But you can no longer say “we never hear it”, when you keep repeating it.
More to the point, “people who menstruate” not necessarily used to erase identities; JK Rowling was actually mocking the term, not endorsing it.
For example:
(from https://helloclue.com/articles/cycle-a-z/what-it%27s-like-to-get-your-period-when-you%27re-trans)
I get dysphoria during my period, …
In other words, this person is suffering from a mental illness.
Gender dysphoria is discomfort, unhappiness, or distress due to one’s gender or physical sex. The current edition (DSM-5) of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders uses the term “gender dysphoria” where it previously referred to “gender identity disorder”, making it clear that they no longer consider the gender identity to be disordered, but rather the emotional state of distress which results from the gender identity.
It is an illness to be treated, not a choice to be validated.
Is there any difference between a person with gender dysphoria, or this man who suffers from Body Integrity Identity Disorder? Should we validate his choice? If he is denied the amputation he seeks, are we erasing his identity?
A top surgeon has asked medical ethics experts for advice on amputating a Sydney man’s perfectly healthy arm because the man finds his limb distressing.
Associate Professor Peter Haertsch, a plastic and reconstructive surgeon who specialises in gender reassignment, said the man, a father in his 30s, has an extremely rare condition called Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where his brain did not recognise the fully functioning arm as part of his body.
“He was referred to me with a psychiatric letter and he is a perfectly normal guy, he has had a plaster cast on his left arm and he has had it hidden from his view since his early teens,” Dr Haertsch said.
“He has been to see numerous psychiatrists and he wants the limb removed and he hasn’t found anyone prepared to do it.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/body-integrity-identity-disorder-sydney-man-wants-healthy-arm-amputated/news-story/9d06c898114df7bdb41451c9ceb72111
stepppenwolf, I’m not into armchair diagnoses; again: the point is that this came up because JK mocked the term. Mocked it because it was inclusive of trans people.
Here’s her tweet (link within it is what she’s mocking, an article titled “Creating a more equal post-COVID-19 world for people who menstruate”):
JK is it? Can’t even bear to give her full name?
She did not “mock the term”, she simply pointed out that too many men are trying to erase women, TRA is the new misogyny.
If women must be reduced to “people who menstruate” then surely men can be reduced to “people who ejaculate”.
It’s already there in the quoted text, so there was no need to type it all out.
But sure, just for you: J.K. Rowling.
(Looks like I can indeed bear it, eh?)
Nope. Again: it was an article titled “Creating a more equal post-COVID-19 world for people who menstruate”. The subject is public health, not gender ideology.
Here is a quotation from that piece:
It is not erasing women in any sense, what wrought forth JK’s (do you need the full name to know to whom I refer?) mockery is that it was inclusive of all people, not just cis women.
Wow — you really, really don’t get that it’s literally referring to people who menstruate, do you?
(I feel like I’m conversing with a chatbot)
Stepppenwolf @#12
I do not approve calling being trans or even having gender dysphoria “mental illness.”
Here is an example of a relatively common birth defect. If denied plastic surgery, people with such physical appearance are highly likely to develop discomfort about how their body looks like. Yet nobody would claim that a person with a cleft lip is mentally ill and that they need a therapist who would help them to learn to love their natal face. Instead, their faces get fixed by plastic surgeons.
Yet when trans people are unhappy with how our bodies look like, then we are proclaimed to be mentally ill.
A person who dislikes how their body looks like and who gets discriminated on a daily basis because of their visual appearance is highly likely to develop depression, anxiety, etc. problems. And I am fine with labelling depression as a mental illness. But being trans or disliking how your body looks like or functions does not make a person mentally ill.
Personally, I have never wanted to change my mind into that of a woman. Instead I would prefer a male body. Proposing that trans people’s minds should be “fixed” by therapists is no different than proposing that gays and lesbians should be converted to heterosexuality by therapists. Firstly, it’s impossible to convert a person to being straight or cis. Secondly, most of us wouldn’t want it even if it were possible.
Incidentally, many cis women also hate having periods, because of the cramps, pain, or the sheer hassle of having to deal with all that blood. Yet somehow cis women aren’t labelled as “mentally ill” for disliking menstruation.
By the way, DSM has a long history of labelling as mental illnesses everything in a row that conservative Christians didn’t approve of (kinkiness, homosexuality, being trans, and so on), so I’m not going to take DSM seriously when it comes to the mental health of trans people.
@#14
Acknowledging that trans people exist erases women? Bullshit.
I shall remind you that my commenting policy (found here https://proxy.freethought.online/andreasavester/2019/12/10/commenting-policy/ ) forbids transphobic comments. Please don’t test my patience.
If you genuinely have questions about trans people, I’ll consider answering. If you are here to defend a transphobe like J.K. Rowling, then my blog’s comment section is the wrong place for this and this will only get you banned and your comments deleted.
“People who menstruate” is an umbrella term. Subgroups include “teenage girls,” “non-binary AFAB people,” “trans men,” and “woman.”
(In linguistics we would talk about hyponymy and hypernymy, but I’ll stick to more commonly used terms.)
When discussing menstruation or selling tampons, if you use a term “people who menstruate,” then you include all the subgroups. If you instead say “women,” then you exclude “teenage girls,” “non-binary AFAB people,” “trans men.” Using the term “people who menstruate” does not exclude women from the discussion.
Incidentally, when discussing sex toys that are intended for people with dicks, I do want gender inclusive language. For example, “cock ring” is a term I’m fine with, because it implies that the item is for people with penises and not just for men. Same goes for “silicone stroker,” or “blow job toys.” But “male masturbator” is a term I dislike, because not all people with penises who are interested in buying sex toys are men. Also, if people really needed some commercial products in order to manage their ejaculations, then “people who ejaculate” would be an appropriate term for discussions about such products.
No, she said people who menstruate are women. You reversed it.
I’ll just leave this here and let readers decide for themselves who the “phobes” are, from whence hatred comes, and how man hate women.
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
stepppenwolf, “and how man hate women”?
Hey, I’m a man, and I don’t hate women.
Perhaps you’re thinking of “incels”?
Also, I’m pretty sure most women don’t hate women.
I do think transphobes are bigots, but that’s hardly the same thing, is it?
—
By the way, do you still not get how “People who Menstruate” explicitly refers to people who menstruate, rather than to women as a category? I mean, JK Rowling is 54, so she probably doesn’t menstruate. But of course, she is indeed a woman.
(Anyway, you’ve outed yourself as a transphobe, in particular one who can’t actually discuss issues other than to parrot TERFish talking points. In short, you’re cooked)
Oh, yeah, forgot: “Unless they are condemning this, from their own community, it’s all rather hollow.”
<clickety-click>
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/15/trans-and-non-binary-activists-write-to-sun-in-support-of-jk-rowling
(huh)
Do you even get the point? The problem with JK is not her womanhood, it’s her transphobia. And trans people condemn misogyny no less than anyone else.
(Actually, they get even more abuse just for who they are than straight women!)
Holms @#18
Whether I reversed her words or no is fucking irrelevant. Trans men who menstruate are not women, they are men.
A 9 years old girl who menstruates isn’t a woman either, she’s a child.
Also, my commenting policy forbids transphobic comments. If you are here to defend J.K. Rowling, your comments will get deleted and you will be banned. Consider this a warning.
@stepppenwolf
Accusing trans people as a group of misogyny is ridiculous. The fact that I criticize the words of some person who happens to be a woman doesn’t mean that therefore I am misogynistic. Am I now also forbidden from criticizing, for example, racists or xenophobes who happen to be female? Are all women now above criticism?
By the way, personally I am willing to call J.K. Rowling an asshole and a bigot, because that’s what she is. I would never call her a cunt or a bitch, because I hate gendered insults.
Trans women themselves suffer from misogyny after transitioning. Trans men suffer from misogyny as children. Most of us have zero interest in defending sexism. Unlike cis men, we do not benefit from it. Trans activists dislike TERFs not because they are women, but because they are a hate group who try to promote bigotry. Incidentally, some TERFs are men. And we also dislike transphobes in general, many of whom are neither feminists nor female.
By the way, when a cis man with gynecomastia wants to surgically remove his boobs, nobody will accuse him of being mentally ill or hating women. Yet when I want a similar procedure, I get accused of hating women (or hating myself) or being a lunatic. Yeah right.
I commented to point out what she actually said, I didn’t ask for you to agree with her statement.
By the way, when a cis man with gynecomastia wants to surgically remove his boobs, nobody will accuse him of being mentally ill or hating women.
Maybe that’s because it IS an illness, a disorder in the endocrine system. Neither do we call a woman who has a cancerous breast removed mentally ill or hating women, again because it is an essential medical procedure that is life saving.
Yet when I want a similar procedure, I get accused of hating women (or hating myself) or being a lunatic.
I try to keep up, I try to understand, but I cannot see how your desire for an operation to remove perfectly healthy body parts is any different to the man suffering from Body Integrity Identity Disorder in my #12 above.
Please explain.
@#25
When cis dudes get gynecomastia, surgical removal of their boobs is a cosmetic procedure. It’s not like those boobs were cancerous or would kill a dude. It’s not like cis dudes couldn’t survive while having bodies with boobs. Theoretically, they might also happily live with boobs and choose not to surgically remove them. Nonetheless, some cis men choose to get surgeries, because they hate how their boobs look like. It’s no different from trans dudes getting the same surgeries for the same reason, namely disliking how their boobs look like.
Andreas, I fully understand that. The bit I don’t get though, is that both the CIS man getting a “boob job” and you getting breasts removed, is no different to the man in my #12 above. All three, it seems to me, suffer from Body Integrity Identity Disorder.
If I am wrong, please help me understand the difference(s).
So quiet…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987263
Now, if seeking symptom relief is a mental illness, almost all people are perforce “mentally ill”. Though it’s normative.
—
There is none. It’s the effort of sufferers to relieve their symptoms, in both cases.
—
But, of course, this is a long, long way from the discussion about people who menstruate — the which category excludes many women, contrary to JK’s stupid claim — but which includes others.
There is none. It’s the effort of sufferers to relieve their symptoms, in both cases.
What about the third case, the one in my #12 above?
Is it mental illness or normative to want to amputate a perfectly good limb? If I say he is wrong to want the amputation, am I now an ampuphobe?
Is it the duty / responsibility of medicine to relieve symptoms, or to treat the underlying illness?
But, of course, this is a long, long way from the discussion about people who menstruate — the which category excludes many women,
True, but only as long as you are excluding pre-pubescent girls and post menopausal women.
Men. Don’t. Menstruate.
Winning the argument.
Posted on Facebook by Sylvia.
Still at it?
Heh. All you’ve got left is the extreme of extremes.
(What about suicides?)
Cis men don’t, that’s true. Trans men might.
I take it you’re being jocular, since of course threats (however credible) towards JK don’t change the nature of her claims.
For comparison to those empty threats, here’s some reality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender
(Perhaps get some perspective!)
Heh. All you’ve got left is the extreme of extremes.
No, I am trying to understand the mindset of people who wish to have surgery to remove perfectly good parts of their bodies.
I struggle to see any distinction between wanting arm amputated and wanting a pair of breasts removed. In both cases, there is no medical need, just Body Integrity Identity Disorder.
Like lipectomy?
Have you considered utility? I mean, unless one needs to lactate to feed an infant, they’re not the most useful things around, are they?
Like lipectomy?
Which body parts are removed during this procedure?
Have you considered utility? I mean, unless one needs to lactate to feed an infant, they’re not the most useful things around, are they?
Are you a woman? I’m not, so I can’t really comment on their utility, but having lived with a woman who lost both breasts to cancer, the scar tissue certainly wasn’t useful. Neither were the mental scars, but that’s OK, it was better than dyeing too young.
So, you have tossed around a lot of red herrings, but done nothing to help me understand why wanting to surgically remove healthy body parts is anything other than a mental illness. Removing breasts no more makes a woman a man than removing a penis makes a man a woman.
Can’t be stuffed with the blockquoting and whatnot, so:
1. Part of your body is removed. An otherwise healthy part.
2. Don’t need be a woman to know their utility is lactation for infants. Duh.
3. You don’t understand why liposuction is a thing? Cosmetic surgery in general?
4. Why do you focus only on boobs and dicks? Is it because you conflate sex and gender?
Look — I get it. You don’t think trans people actually transition at all. You think they’re mentally ill. And you’re trying to dance around being explicit about it.
This comment has been deleted by Andreas Avester, because it violated this blog’s commenting policy, found here.
1. And connective tissue and blood, but isn’t that a healthy, functional part of the body?
(Hey, you are the one who started the extreme considerations)
1a. And why are we even talking about surgery and excision? Oh yeah, because I noted an example of someone who referred to people who menstruate and who lacks a penis which caused disphoria — which in your mind is a mental illness. From whence you went straight to surgeries.
2. So… you won’t speak as to the utility of boobs because you aren’t a woman, but you will pontificate on what transgenderism is though you aren’t transgender.
Bah.
You know what? I’m pretty sure identity is a state of mind — but that doesn’t mean it’s not real.
This comment has been deleted by Andreas Avester, because it violated this blog’s commenting policy, found here.
@ stepppenwolf
I warned you. As you must have noticed, your last few comments are now deleted. If you decide to keep on testing my patience, your IP address will be added to my spam filters.
Since you asked: Boobs are blobs of fat tissue that are inconvenient to carry around. Whenever you exercise, those damn things bounce around, and that feels uncomfortable. Bras are also uncomfortable as fuck with all those damn straps digging into your skin. Carrying around extra fat in your breasts is even more uncomfortable that carrying around extra fat on your stomach. Stomach fat at least doesn’t bounce around whenever you exercise and doesn’t need to be supported with uncomfortable garments.
If you like how your boobs look like or you want to feed an infant, then you’ll want to have boobs. Otherwise they are even more annoying than all that extra fat on your stomach.
Also, you seem to recognize that a cis woman can get mental scars, because her body looks different from how she wanted her body to look like (she wanted boobs but got scar tissue instead, she got unhappy as a result). Yet somehow you dismiss the fact that also trans people can feel unhappy, because their bodies look differently from what they would like.
In addition, I find it odd that TERFs fail to get outraged about chopping off perfectly healthy foreskins or people getting nose jobs. TERFs fail to even consistently oppose body modifications, instead they are perfectly OK with “TERF approved” (TM) body modifications while simultaneously opposing different body modifications that they dislike.
Deleting posts is an easy way to avoid having to discuss issues, the coward’s way out, if you like.
Since you asked: Boobs are blobs of fat tissue that are inconvenient to carry around. Whenever you exercise, those damn things bounce around, and that feels uncomfortable. Bras are also uncomfortable as fuck with all those damn straps digging into your skin. Carrying around extra fat in your breasts is even more uncomfortable that carrying around extra fat on your stomach. Stomach fat at least doesn’t bounce around whenever you exercise and doesn’t need to be supported with uncomfortable garments.
I could same the same about penis and testicles, and they can become quite painful if hit during contact sport. But that isn’t a good enough reason to chop them off.
I reject the categorizations CIS and TERF. They are shorthand abuse that are placeholders for lack of defensive arguments. You may call me a TERF, I may call you a fugglblab. There, have we advanced the discussion?
In addition, I find it odd that TERFs fail to get outraged about chopping off perfectly healthy foreskins or people getting nose jobs. TERFs fail to even consistently oppose body modifications, instead they are perfectly OK with “TERF approved” (TM) body modifications while simultaneously opposing different body modifications that they dislike.
I honestly don’t care what body parts you want to have removed, your body, not mine. All I am trying to understand is the motivation and if there is a difference between a man wanting a limb removed because he “doesn’t recognize it as part of his body” and a woman wanting healthy breasts removed for reasons.
Yeah, posting a comment policy and actually enforcing it is so very cowardly.
Whereas repeatedly and wilfully breaching that policy after being warned is just peachy.
For a place that labels itself “Free thought” there sure are a lot of rules and policing about which thoughts are free to be expressed.
I was interested that one of the deleted posts was about how I cannot articulate what it “feels like” to be a man as I have never been anything else, so have no reference points. So, that makes me wonder how a man “knows he is a woman” or vice versa. Without a reference point, how can anyone “know”?
Now, that is different from “wanting to be”, but wanting to be a penguin doesn’t make me one, any more than wanting to be a basketballer will get me a starting position with the Bulls.
So, other than by their sex, how does one know if they are a man or a woman?
Steppenwolf’s IP address is now added to the comment blacklist, meaning that they won’t be able to comment here anymore.
There was some criticism that: “Deleting posts is an easy way to avoid having to discuss issues, the coward’s way out, if you like.”
This isn’t about cowardice; instead I value my free time. I could go on and write thousands of words arguing against TERFs, but I do not enjoy such “conversations.” Arguing against bigots is unpleasant. Thus I have no interest in spending my free time doing some activity that I do not enjoy. If you wish, you can pay me an hourly rate for my work (let’s say 30 euro per hour), and then I will argue with you about transphobia to your heart’s content. But I won’t waste my free time arguing with bigots for free.
My blog posts about trans issues are meant to be educational. If you want to learn, you are welcome to be here. If you genuinely have questions, I will consider answering (if I have time). But I won’t allow people to use my blog’s comment section as space where to preach their bigoted theories about what it means to be a man or a woman.
As for the value of discussion—I already know all the standard TERF arguments and “theories.” Steppenwolf hasn’t told me anything new that I hadn’t heard before. These bigoted views have been refuted ad nauseum in other webpages. It’s the same old clichés being regurgitated again and again. I don’t expect any new arguments from yet another TERF. Do you seriously imagine that “people who menstruate cannot be men” is something I haven’t heard already? Arguing against a TERF in my blog’s comment section makes as much sense as arguing against a Christian believer that the Earth is only a few thousand years old.
And then there was: “For a place that labels itself “Free thought” there sure are a lot of rules and policing about which thoughts are free to be expressed.”
Indeed. All Freethoughblogs bloggers moderate their comment sections. Bigotry, hate speech, etc. crap isn’t tolerated here.
If you want non-moderated online spaces, there’s 8chan for that.