This post was brought to you by my brother in law, so it might get ranty.
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely support people being child free. Honestly, I don’t know anybody working in education and with families who isn’t a strong supporter of contraception, family planning and thinking long and hard about whether being a parent is something that you should do.
I’m also the first to admit that children are not smallish adults, but have certain characteristics beyond age and height that make them different from adults. It’s something that makes people who like working with children enjoy their company, it is something that makes parenting an amazing journey, and it’s something that makes others not enjoy either of these things.
Nevertheless, children are people, they are part of society, they should have their needs met and accommodated. There are very few spaces where children don’t belong, and those are for their own protection, say a Shisha bar. For the rest of spaces: think about how this space can be made child friendly. Many restaurants already do this: they have a children’s menu, they have play corners (one of our favourite Asian buffet places has a whole room), and if you think about it, it’s a smart move, because children will only grow up to value a sit down meal in a nice restaurant if they learn how to behave there while young.
But there’s another level of accessibility and that is for parents. We’ve talked about this before: If you organise something, say a sceptics’ conference or something like that, think about how you can provide childcare. Because if not, overwhelmingly women will be unable to attend your event. I mean, you can go full Sam Harris and blame your sciency manly vibes that scare off fragile little damsels, or you can ask yourselves: what can we do to make sure parents can attend?
Which gets me to a different level, which is private life. And of course you get to set all sorts of boundaries here, but you also have to live with the consequences. There’s a plethora of “Am I The Asshole” posts on Reddit where somebody decides to have a child free wedding and is then super offended when the parents in their lives decline, especially when it’s their siblings. Sorry, but weddings are expensive, and getting childcare on top of it costs a lot of money, the people who are usually watching your children are probably at the wedding as well (Hey mum, could you watch our kids while we go to your daughter’s wedding?), not to mention trusting some babysitter enough to leave them for several days. And, yes, let’s face it, parents do take this shit personal. Their children are pretty important people in their lives and if you frame their existence as a complete nuisance and burden to everyone who is even just in the same room, they might decide that your friendship isn’t worth it.
Which gets me to my brother in law. He is and has always been super entitled. He’s 11 years younger than my husband and didn’t grow up so much with a sibling than with a third overindulgent parent and he’s used to the whole family catering to him. The last two times he moved, my husband of course helped him, which meant driving a few hundred kilometres each time. I can’t remember even being reimbursed for the fuel, and I especially can’t remember him lifting a single finger when we moved. Because those are services he thinks his family has to provide.
Now he has invited us to his birthday. Come on, Giliell, you say. You said he was super entitled, but now he’s inviting you, that’s nice! Only… Well, remember the couple of hundred kilometres? Going there means spending the night. Spending the night means getting hotel rooms. For the great honour of being invited to his birthday he already expects us to spend a few hundred €. He lives in the Black Forest. Hotels ain’t cheap there. And well, we would have coughed that up, if not for the original subject of this post. We’re still in a raging global pandemic, the little one isn’t vaccinated yet, and sleeping in a hotel with her is totally out of the question for us. So we asked him, could the children stay with him for the night? I mean, his flat is bigger than our house, he has a guest room where his parents are staying, and a living room, and a studio, and a fucking library, but he doesn’t have space for his nieces. He really doesn’t want them to be in his space, because you never know. It’s not like we asked them to watch two toddlers who would paint the walls with his acrylics, or tear the pages from his books. They’re two well behaved teens who basically just want the Wifi password and food. Also his parents, who are watching the kids regularly, are also there. But nooooo, he’s afraid for his precious belongings. Which is totally reasonable in his eyes. Yet our fear for our kid is totally irrational, you know? Guess who’s currently being made out to be unreasonable…
We are supposed to love our siblings and parents, and being part of a family, I guess thats okay. But really folks, we do not have to like our sibs or our parents if they are not likeable people. If it were me, Id politely tell my brother to stick his birthday firmly up his ass if those are his conditions for my attendance. Many years ago, when my brother was single and I was only 8 or 9 years married, he told me I was a horrible parent because I smoked pot even though I never smoked it in front of my kids. Bills got paid, food was stocked, children were clothed each month before I spent a dime on weed. I threw my brother out of my house. 30 some years later and I might talk to him once a year even though he lives five miles from me and I am more than happy with that and apparently he is too. Family might be important, but they dont deserve all the breaks they think they do. I try to be accommodating to my family, but I havent bent over backwards to make them happy ever. If we cant work together to find solutions to our problems then the one who wont try as hard as I do to find a solution is the problem, not me. If that makes me an asshole, I can live with it. I think you are being more than reasonable. Send the guy a card and carry on with your life. You should not be made to feel guilty because you love your children more than you like your brother.
People who opt for child-free weddings are like people opt for stag/hen do’s in some foreign city for a weekend. You go for it, with my blessing, I don’t have the money for such things. I mean -- I *do*, I’m just not spending it on YOUR choice of destination.
There’s a corner of my family I simply no longer speak to. It’s not a legal requirement. If they’re not at least basically OK to be around… bollocks to ’em. Anyone who’d judge you for ghosting an arse like that is worth no more to you than he is.
Send him a little poem?
“Money’s tight, times are hard, here’s your freakin’ birthday card”
By far the worst kind of child to deal with is the adult who thinks they get to act like a selfish child at your expense.
Stoned Ranger
I kind of do like the guy, in a very casual way. He’s fun to hang out with. I’m just not looking forward to the next 20 years or so when their parents get old and everybody will of course expect me to take care of them, because (official reason) I’m the one physically closest to them (Mr is an amazing guy who works in a different town during the week). I think as lot of people will be in for a rough surprise (I have no intention of physically taking care of anybody and administrative shit can be done from anywhere.
Of course I will be the bad person then as well (I mean, what ARE women for?). Because you can’t expect their darling son to make any sacrifices!
Honestly, he’s the very logical product of his upbringing. I mean, he lived in a flat with a fully functioning washing machine but brought his laundry home every weekend while his mum was battling breast cancer. But of course she would never ask “poor M” to do his own laundry! (I had to teach Mr how to do the laundry when we moved in together. He was over 30 by then. But probably because he’d always got roped into the pampering of his brother, he didn’t stand a chance of becoming an entitled ass) And because a free for students train ride was too exhausting for poor M with the travel bag of laundry, his dad would do a 100km round trip with the car, while asking us for money because they didn’t have money for food (after they stuffed said travel bag with food for poor M). A few years into my relationship with Mr they tried to include me into that scheme, when M and I were basically in the same situation: students with a part time job (no tuition here, just living expenses): “And then Giliell can drive poor M…! and I asked them what they were thinking.
sonofrojblack
Sorry, you got caught in the spam trap
In our family, I am the youngest kid who grew up with older siblings occasionally looking after him as surrogate parents. I did not have much common ground with my brother until I turned twenty and the seven-year gap between us became less significant.
I am also the one who ended up being single and childless -- and the one who has to take care of elderly and disabled parents, solo, because my older and supposedly more responsible sister dug herself a financial hole that no one can fill and my brother has moved 400 km away.
I do get reasonably well along with children. My friend’s children usually do not mind me and some even like me (well, they did before the pandemic, I have seen none of them for two years). My nephews were always welcome to visit, from childhood to adulthood, and I always did my part in entertaining them and taking care of them. I only ever felt disappointed when I got told that they cannot visit.
Your brother-in-law is an ass. One of my friends has a child who will probably be that way when he grows up too. He is a single child and used to have all the attention on him, all the time. He is the kind of child that makes well-behaved children to throw a tantrum to avoid playing with him when he comes to visit. The kind of child who when he sees two adults play chess with several children watching and having fun kibitzing flips the chessboard so all eyes are on him. The kind who has to be physically restrained on a regular basis because he refuses to follow even instructions like “do not wander into traffic” or “do not throw stones on cars”.
I agree that places for children are necessary. However, if some business owner decides to advertise their place as especially kid friendly and accommodating, they inevitably will alienate some customers (like me). I perceive the noises children make as extremely disturbing and irritating. For example, if in some restaurant there are background noises of children’s screams (coming from some play corner or whatever), I will instantly leave such a restaurant. I do not have a duty to endure irritating noises. I will seek out spaces that provide peace and quiet or some calming background music or whatever. Parents are welcome to instead seek kid-friendly spaces. A single space cannot possibly please everybody, thus it is fine if different businesses cater to the needs of different clients. If parents complained that too few businesses cater to their needs, I would be willing to believe them (I actually have no clue how many establishments have kids’ playgrounds). But if parents complained that they want every single business to cater to their needs, I would disagree with such attitudes.
If I were organizing some personal event, it would be kid-free. I wouldn’t get offended at all if some parents took that as a clue to not attend at all. Parents are welcome to decide what they want to do and where they want to go. Similarly, I am also free to decide that I am nobody’s free babysitter and I have no duty to endure the inconvenience of dealing with young children. Parents have no right to dump their kids upon me without my consent. Similarly, I have no right to force other people to put up with me and my habits either. I dislike interacting with young kids, so I stay away from them. If some parents dislike my “no kids” rule, they are welcome to stay away from me.
Fair enough. The feeling is mutual, by the way. If some friend wanted to force me to be their free babysitter or wanted to dump their kid upon me without my consent, I would also decide that such a friendship isn’t worth it.
Your relative is free to decide that he doesn’t want some specific persons inside his home. You are free to decide that you don’t want to go to places where you cannot take your kids with you. I do not see a problem here.
By the way, plenty of people’s expensive belongings have been destroyed by their friends’ or relatives’ children. What if, for example, your kids entered my home and destroyed my $5000 photo camera? What if they destroyed my artworks? Would you be willing to pay the bill? In such cases parents usually pretend that they are oh so innocent and refuse to compensate for all the damage their kids have caused. I have heard this shit all the time: “It was an accident, my kids meant no harm; surely I do not have to pay for all the damages from my pocket. Did you just say $XXXX? That’s crazy, how could I possibly afford that anyway!”
First parents demand that their toddlers or young children are allowed to enter their friends’ or relatives’ non-child-proofed homes; afterwards they complain when they get bills for thousands of dollars worth of damages.
Granted, if you kids are already teens, then they probably won’t cause any disasters, so I cannot agree with your relative’s worries. Nonetheless, I still think that every person has a right to decide that they do not want a specific person inside their home.
If you believe that you have a right to force any person to interact with your children against their will, then that’s not how the world works. And that’s also entitlement.
Charly
That kid sounds like they would benefit from a professional looking at them. Because spoiling kids will mask symptoms of neurodivergence (they can look like “brat” to outsiders anyway).
@Giliell, he might be neurodivergent (although one of my nephews has ADHD and the trouble with him was markedly different -- he never did things just to spite us for example). There are also several other issues in the family, although those did only happen recently whereas his behavioral problems were apparent from very early on.
Whether his experts-hating-COVID-conspiracies-loving father or his doting mother will let a professional look at him and accept the findings is another kettle of fish. They might, they might not. I have no news for almost two years by now.
Andreas
Whie I understand where you are coming from, I think you are missing the nuance that brother M and the parents will be annoyed that Giliell and Mr G aren’t prepared to put kid 2 in danger to attend this event. I think it is reasonabl to say “I don’t want your kids in my space” but it is not reasonable to then blame you for not coming. Clearly parents first obligtion is or damn well should be to the care of their children, one shouldn’t be offended when they put that obligation first.
Also it always worth checking hat a business means by being ‘child friendly’, if as the place Giliell mentions they have a seperate room for parents with children, which many pubs in the UK do -- partly for legal reasons -- then it’s quite possible for the to have rooms with an adult atmosphere and rooms with a child filled atmosphere. It seems foolish to deprive yourself of what would be a pleasurable experience just because a venue also caters to the needs of people with children.
Gileill
I know it’s not the same but we get this with the dogs, we are quite happy to stay in hotels for such events, but they need to be hotels which will accept German Shepherds, and plenty of places that say they are dog friendly don’t include GSD’s. I understand why, but it is never the less frustrating. In our case we have obliging family who understand our priorities and most of them will let us stay it them. When they don’t/can’t we have usually gone on our own to our respective families. But neither faamily would pull the ‘it’s your fault you can’t come’ crap.
@Jazzlet, what is it about German Shepherds that gets them excluded? Is it size? Because among breeds of that size, there are many more dangerous and difficult to raise breeds.
Andreas
How do you jump from “parents attending an event with their kids” to “being asked to play free babysitter”? I never attended any event with or without my children where people simply dumped children on the host.
Again, that’s two levels mixed and a third missing. If you say “no kids”, fine. But then yes, you need to be actually fine with parents deciding to dump you. If you actually are fine with that, then there’s no problem. the problem arises when people think that they can have relationships with Person A, but not Parent A. And again, you’re acting as if any small child existing in the same space as you is forcing you to interact on a level beyond “hi, that’s nice, where’s your parent?”
The problem is that he thinks us unreasonable. I’m also, of course, on some level not “free to decide”. they#re kids, and while they’re pretty easy to get along with and responsible, I can’t just leave them,
Well, so far they have managed to keep their hands off my 4k worth of photo equipment. Should they (or I) accidentally destroy something valuable that belongs to other people, there’s something called insurance. Nobody is perfect and I’m not planning to ruin my finances over a clumsy accident. It#s something every responsible person should have. Do you have one?
I know you’re an artist, but how broad is the brush you’re currently using?
Demand…
So when parents say “I can visit, but of course I have to take the kids with me”, they’re making “demands”???
It’s pretty sad that you seem to view every interaction between people as a transaction with at least an imaginary price tag. “free childcare” “free babysitter”. Don’t worry, I don’t think you’ll ever get to be in that situation. How of course you get from “we don’t want our child to die from Covid, so we can only visit if they can sleep at your place” to “dumping a kid upon people without their consent” is again beyond me. It’s not like I drove a few hundred kilometres, left the kid there and then left again. It’s not even that we asked for “childcare”, especially not in the sense that we wanted to go somewhere and enjoy ourselves without the kids. The whole event was my BILs idea and wish.
Who the fuck is talking about “forcing” anybody to interact with (my) children beyond the levels at which society requires people to interact with one another? I’m more than happy for strangers to keep well away from my children. But children, not just mine, are actually people. They have a right to be in society. Them existing in the same space as you is not people forcing you to interact. You keep saying stuff like this, which leads me to the conclusion that you think that children existing in the same space as you is some great infringement on your personal freedom.
Charly
In the UK as in some other countries German Shepherds have been extesively used for police and security work, to the extent that if you put “police dog2 in a search engine in the UK you will get multile pictures of GSDs. There was a point in maybe the seventies and early eighties when men who wished to project a tough image chose GSDs as a short hand, and all too often did not train them adequately. This resulted in a number of well publicised incidents of GSDs attacking eople and so the dogs got a reputation as being dangerous. Totally unfair as it was the humans who were dangerous, or at least wanted you to think they were, but there we are.