Update 1:45 PM Central: reports out that Martin’s knuckles show signs consistent with a fist-fight.
This suggests there was a fist fight of some sort before 17 year-old Trayvon Martin was shot to death by George Zimmerman earlier this year in Florida:
(CBS) — Medical records showing that George Zimmerman was treated for a fractured nose and cuts to the back of his head after fatally shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin will likely bolster Zimmerman’s argument that Martin attacked him, CBS News legal analyst Jack Ford said on “CBS This Morning” Wednesday.
The records came to light Tuesday. CBS News has also confirmed they show that Zimmerman had a pair of black eyes when he was examined by a doctor Feb. 27, the day after he shot Martin in a gated Florida community. Zimmerman, who has claimed self-defense, faces a charge of second-degree murder in the shooting.
Given how the police did not mention this in the report, it’s possible those injuries happened after Martin was murdered. And if Martin did give Zimmerman those black eyes, since it was Z who was chasing Martin then Martin was the one defending himself, not Z. If a middle-aged man chased a white teenager, everyone would be thinking “pervert”, so Martin deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Alverant: very good points there.
If Martin had survived this incident, then he, too, could have invoked the “stand your ground” law just as fairly as Zimmerman. That alone proves such laws are crap.
Oh, and wasn’t Martin shot in the back?
I was thinking about the stand your ground law the other day. Seems like it could make shoot outs and duels legal. If A has a legally carried gun and so does B, and either one fears for their safety, they could each draw, escalating the tension, and they could each legally fire on the other. Viola, duels and shoot outs are now legal.
Re Alverant
Given how the police did not mention this in the report, it’s possible those injuries happened after Martin was murdered.
Is Mr. Alverant implying that the cops beat up Zimmerman causing those injuries?
I don’t think the cops had to be the ones to beat up Zimmerman. If you shoot a guy, no matter how dim you are it probably dawns on you that you could get in trouble for it. And if your cover story is that you were attacked, I could see how you’d want to get roughed up to have a little physical “proof”.
But there are so many weird gaps in the story. If he had been punched hard enough or repeatedly such that he ended up with two black eyes, you would think it would have been mentioned in the initial police report.
The way this has played out nationally is chilling.
I believe he is implying that Zimmerman may have self-inflicted those injuries to bolster his defense.
slc1 @ 4
Are you implying Zimmerman is just a poor innocent who was minding his own business when brutally attacked?
How about another scenario…after the ‘justified’ execution of an unarmed black kid…’our brave hero’ knew he was in a tad of strife and needed a little cover story…a few ‘friends’ might have provided the ‘cover’ before Zimmerman when he was examined by a doctor Feb. 27, the day after he shot Martin…just sayin’
CBS has a very stupid headline for that story:
Trayvon Martin Shooting: George Zimmerman suffered two black eyes, broken nose, court documents say
.
Is there anyone who doesn’t know that the black eyes are likely a result of the broken nose? So that listing them as separate injuries is merely padding the list?
I thought it was pretty much consensus at this point that there had been a fistfight. The question is rather whether it was completely one-sided or not.
In any case, in any sane place, that’s still manslaughter. You can’t just pull out a gun in the middle of a fistfight, at least not under anything resembling common law.
It’s my understanding that in at least one case, Florida police were unable to successfully prosecute a gang shootout for reasons approximately along these lines. Now, I can’t remember where I read this, though — I think it was a reputable news source, but I simply can’t recall — so this comes with a big [citation needed] tag.
As far as Zimmerman’s injuries being from later, Occam’s Razor makes me preeeetttty skeptical of that. I mean, yeah, it could have happened… But a much simpler explanation is the dudes got in a fistfight and then Zimmerman pulled out a gun (which, to reiterate my last comment, is still manslaughter at a minimum in any place with sane gun laws). That scenario is consistent with everything that every person relevant to the investigation has stated.
Re Reginald Selkirk @ #5
There is a photograph taken shortly after the cops arrived at the scene showing Zimmerman bleeding from what appear to be head injuries.
Re anubisprime @ #6
I am implying no such thing. The injuries speak for themselves. By the way, not mentioned is that Martin had injuries to his hands, indicating that he had punched someone.
None of this means that Zimmerman shouldn’t be charged with a crime. However, based on the information available so far, IMHO, the prosecutor has overcharged him, probably in an attempt to force a plea bargain, a strategy that all too many prosecutors employ. I don’t want to play lawyer here but the facts seem to support a charge of manslaughter (which, by the way the police officer in charge of the crime scene wanted to charge Zimmerman with).
@8 jamessweet
Actually, common law has two different categories of homicide-that-isn’t-murder: justifiable homicide and excusable homicide. In the case of justifiable homicide, the shooter is completely blameless in the incident occurring. In the case of excusable homicide, the shooter is partly to blame for the circumstances, the classic example being a fight which escalated. In the case of excusable homicide, the shooter may be able to escape a murder conviction, but could face lesser charges such as manslaughter…… Zimmerman couldn’t justifiable homicide, but might claim excusable homicide.
@Everyone
FYI, in the Zimmerman case stand your ground is completely irrelevant. Florida’s stand-your-ground law explicitly states:
I don’t think that Zimmerman’s defenders can prove either 2a.) or 2b., and thus Stand-Your-Ground will be unavailable to him as a defense…..
We already knew that Zimmermin was on top of Martin when seen by witnesses. The picture of the bloody head does not match police videos, and the blood looks fake. The “report” is by the family physician and “obtained exclusively” by AMC news.
Nothing new, low credibility as to details, zero chain of evidence. Not likely to even be admissible at the trial.
#11 again the cops did not put it in their report. Since they were so eager to call it self-defense why didn’t the put such damning evidence that he was telling the truth in their report?
Also if Martin did punch Zimmerman, why wouldn’t he be considered defending himself? Murder is still a reasonable charge since Z is the one who started the confrontation. He created the dangerous situation so he is responsible for what happens.
“duels and shoot outs are now legal.”
Technically, murdering anyone, nearly anywhere is legal. Technically, murdering cops, too.
The trick is, these laws are just an excuse for people to shoot minorities. They are NOT for minorities to defend themselves. The cops and courts choose who gets this privilege, and who gets railroaded.
Not that I wish for more harm, but if a case turns up of two legally armed men shooting each other, but not quite killing, and one of them men is black… Florida would demonstrate to the world what exactly they mean by “stand your ground.”
Maybe Zimmerman and Martin did have a fistfight. If they did, that changes nothing about the following:
1) Zimmerman had a police record that suggests he is a violent thug–or, at least, would have been deemed one were he black. Zimmerman was charged with “RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE” and “BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.” Had he been Trayvon or any other black man, he might well have been killed for these offenses, or at least have done jail time, found it very difficult to ever get a job again, and been robbed of his right to vote.
http://www.policeleak.com/post/19671656352/george-michael-zimmermans-criminal-record
2) Zimmerman took it upon himself to police his neighborhood for scary black men despite not being a cop or a Neighborhood Watch member.
3) Zimmerman chose to keep following Trayvon after being told not to do so.
Given these, and given the racial climate of this country, the dead kid who was toting Skittles still gets the benefit of my doubt.
Re Greg Laden @ #13
Nothing new, low credibility as to details, zero chain of evidence. Not likely to even be admissible at the trial.
On what basis would the testimony of the physician who examined Zimmerman be ruled inadmissible? He would certainly be subject to cross examination, particularly for bias, but there is nothing inadmissible about what he would testify to.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the prosecutor presumably had access to these medical records and still felt she had enough evidence to sustain a murder charge.
That Zimmerman and Martin got into some kind of scuffle has already been established by witness accounts, but even if his injuries were the result of the fistfight, it doesn’t turn Martin into the aggressor. Remember, Zimmerman pursued Martin without any evidence that Martin had committed any crime. As far as I’m concerned, the moment the 9/11 dispatcher advised Zimmerman that he should not continue following Martin, everything that followed was of his creation. But for his continued stalking of Martin, none of the events of that night would have happened.
Of course, it is entirely possible that his actions could still fall under Florida’s law as self-defense. In which case, it would be a clear sign that something is Fubar with Florida law. Not that I expect Governor Gollum to care.
I would love to give the lawmakers in Florida the benefit of the doubt that such was not their intent in passing this law. Of course, when comparing this case to the woman who fired a warning shot at her abusive husband, injured no one, and got 20 years in jail for it, that’s hard to do.
Did you notice these things?
1- Blood in Zimmerman’s head is dripping downwards towards his face
2- If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, a bullet wound would have spilled blood on his red shirt
My Thoughts:
1- Zimmerman was on top of Martin when Zimmerman shot Martin
2- Martin caught Zimmerman’s head during the fight and Martin’s nails would have hurt Zimmerman. As the wounds are similar to a tear wound cause by a nail
Also as blood was dripping down towards Zimmerman’s face, Zimmerman must be looking downwards towards Martin before he shot Martin.