Steubenville High School football players kidnapped, raped and urinated on a 16-year-old girl. But instead of blaming the rapists, former students blamed the victim. They were laughing as they were talking about her. Men love rape jokes. They verbally rape the girls who are already raped.
We haven’t finished protesting against brutal gang rape in India. Indian society is deeply misogynistic. If the boys were Indian, we could have said, ‘it’s their cultural upbringing and socialization’. But the boys in the video are North American. North America, we all know, is much safer for women than India. But the bitter truth is, misogynists are everywhere, they are in the North, in the South, in the West and in the East. And Men, unfortunately, educated or illiterate, rich or poor, young or old, black or white, are more or less the same everywhere!
“Men” are the same everywhere? OK, I totally support your right to think and say so, but I can’t get my head around it any more than “women are the same everywhere” or “people are the same everywhere” or “cats are the same everywhere”. I’m not an MRA, far from it, but I read the headline, thought of my beloved husband in the kitchen making me dinner while I work, and thought of my wretched ex-husband, who really WAS an MRA, and I just can’t sign on to that statement that all men are the same.
Rapists are the same everywhere. Misogyny exists everywhere. Crime exists everywhere. I’m as appalled as you are about the sexual assaults around the world. But please don’t target all men, some of whom are even wholehearted participants in the fight for social justice for women.
As a collective. It’s like saying CEOs are the same everywhere, despite the fact that we have better conditions in Europe than workers have in China. The attitude of looking only for themselves and constantly trying to take away workers’ rights for profit, you see that mentality across many cultures.
The video in the post is what happens when a certain mentality translates itself into action.
Predicting the actions of a single man by the actions of other men is a fallacy, even when you do it statistically. I don’t completely disagree with your CEO example, however; being the head of a profit-making corporation necessarily entails certain responsibilities and behaviors. Your CEO example is a little bit like like saying, “All sopranos can reach the C two octaves above middle C”. Taslima’s statement is more like, “All women are sopranos”.
The video is a situation of its own, is hideously appalling, and the men responsible should be held responsible. I can see broadening “the men responsible” to include every man, and every woman, who instilled the idea into the perpetrators, directly or indirectly, that it was OK for them to rape and insult a woman. But I can’t see broadening it to include “men” in general.
This fallacy:
“A hasty generalization is a broad claim based on too-limited evidence. It is unethical to assert a broad claim when you have only anecdotal or isolated evidence or instances.
No, as a collective it’s like saying women are the same everywhere. Or black people are the same everywhere. And so on..
When you make a statement, you put yourself at risk of having to back it up. When it’s a question, all you have to say is “Hey, I’m just the guy/gal asking questions.” Organizations like World Net Daily do this routinely (e.g., “Was Obama secretly gay-married to his Pakistani college roommate?”). So does Joe Rogan. There’s nothing dishonest about it – it really is a question – and yet it’s very effective at getting the message out.
I have no problem saying gay people are discriminated everywhere. Even though in Spain there is gay marriage and anti-discrimination laws, there is still vestigial stigma. So in that aspect I can say gay people are the same everywhere. You can opine the wording isn’t strategically smart because people trying in bad faith to discredit what’s actually being said might take advantage of that. So the title was arguably naive in that regard, it that it assumed good faith from readers. Oh well, a lesson for the future.
Really, I have no problem saying corporations are the same everywhere for the reason I described and you ignored. Bureaucracy is also pretty much the same everywhere you go. I don’t think it’s the same with your black people example because I don’t see a common trait for black people as a collective all over the world, except perhaps that they’re poorer than their fair-skinned compatriots.
Thank you, Taslima, I appreciate you changing the title from “Men are the same everywhere” to “Are men the same everywhere?”. I did not mean to imply that I had any objection to the content of the post, or any intent to minimize the rape and abuse.
Sorry, to “Are men more or less the same everywhere?” This is a question that can be honestly engaged with. Thanks again.
Are women more or less the same everywhere?
I know of several women, that during a divorce lied to the courts about their ex-husbands, and they did this to keep their ex-husbands from having any contact with their children.
I used to think these events were rare in frequency, and I should not generalize this sort of deceit to all women, but now I am not so sure. Maybe all women everywhere are deceitful and hate children and men so as to deprive children of fathers.
What do you think?
I think it’s not the question Taslima asked. Maybe we should pursue it in a different forum.
Be quiet everyone! Stop talking about the girl who got gang raped! Some woman hurt Oliver Crangle’s feelings once, and THAT’S the real crime here…
Well, thank you for actually admitting that generalities only offend you when they are applied to men. We can ignore you now.
I’m guessing you’ve never hijacked the comment thread of another blog to cry about the injustice of misogynistic generalities. Like, have you ever actually corrected someone for making a generality about women? Do you get offended when people say things like “women are more irrational than men”, or “women get bitchy on their period”? Fucking hypocrite.
Many thanks.
U R NOT RIGHT ALL THE TIME
YES SHE IS
She is spot on!
The intention was to provoke thought, lighten up badgersdaughter, it is not acute a problem in the west as it is in the east but it is. I was falsely accused of rape but even then people automatically assumed she must be lying because of my social standing. She was lying, and the truth came out(it often does) but the automatic assumption still disturbs me intellectually. Because I was from a wealthy family or my father was powerful or my mother was educated it was assumed I could not possibly be a rapist? I don’t begrudge the people who knew me giving me the benefit of the doubt, but strangers? I could have been guilty and it wouldn’t have made a difference. The girl in question did a disservice to her sisters for validating misogyny in the mind of misogynists but the issue of misogyny is still a serious problem in rural areas and small towns(villages) in the west. If she wants to say men don’t understand how rape is similar to terrorism to women well maybe she has a point. White people will never know what it’s like for a black person to be called a n*gger and men will never understand what it’s like to have rape jokes and comments thrown at them. A specific woman or a specific black person might find a specific comment amusing but in general no.
Zachary, I applaud your earnestness but I’m not sure what you’re objecting to, exactly. I don’t have any problem with Taslima saying what she pleases; I was just asking her to reconsider. She doesn’t have to listen to me.
My gist is the title is more or less a non-issue.
It wasn’t just the title, unless she edited the stuff out of her post too. No matter, *I* read it… *I* witnessed it, and so did others. I’m sure if it was some sort of misogynistic title you’d change your tune, Zachary. And it was again, more than just the title. I hate that both sides of sexism aren’t condemned just as much as the other 🙁
Yeah, it’s totally wrong to assume someone is lying JUST because of your social standing – and I agree, it’s wrong, even if it TURNS OUT that she WAS lying. But that’s not just something men do – assume people are guilty of lying right off the bat. A collection of people do it. If you HAD raped her… it would’ve been awful for her as a rape victim.. that no one believes her just because of your standing :/ completely disgusting. Sometimes I hate thinking about this stuff.
But that’s not just something men do – assume people are guilty of lying right off the bat.
The point really is that assumption of false accusation is rather common for accusation of rape, but a lot less common for accusations not-involving sexual acts.
Saying misognynists are everywhere is one thing. Saying men are the same everywhere, and thus equating them all to misogynists is misandry.
Taslima Nasreen, you are no better than any ignorant bigot. You are worse, because you are educated.
Your post is shameful.
so Taslima is not allowed to have a moment of anger, she needs to be cold and intellectual 100% of time?
It’s okay to be angry. All of get angry. (You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry)
But bigoted statements that will inflame and divide should always be condemned and we should all be adult enough to apologize for them, and learn from our mistakes.
Oh yes, us white men are so stomped on mistreated eh, we only get what we want 85% of the time…. *play tiny violin*
*play tiny violin*
Hey put that away, go masturbate somewhere else.
I probably don’t like you even when you’re not angry. So it’s almost certain I wouldn’t like you when you’re angry. Unless you suddenly become more likeable?
This isn’t “being angry” Zach. It’s sexism. Please stop acting like it’s just a moment of anger. If the same comments were made about women, black people, gay people, mexican people, etc, it wouldn’t be brushed under the rug as “being angry.” No, there’s no involuntary -ism switch that happens when people are angry. Taslima is simply sexist, and it was brought out in this post. “Anger” is not an excuse. I hate it when it’s used as an excuse for sexism against women (see: people complaining about custody denial and then talking about how much women are the same everywhere, etc). It upsets me. But I hate it just as much when it’s used as an excuse for sexism against men.
The difference is that men, especially white men, really don;t have it nearly as bad as women with respect to sexism. I’m sick of tired of men like Oliver Crangle here who try to derail any discussion of sexism by trying to make it all about the poor oppressed middle class white male. We really don;t have it that bad.Let’s stop pretending otherwise.
The story here is about a young woman being gang raped and then victimized again by the cultural bias against female rape victims. Pretending that men’s feelings being hurt is somehow on a par with that is just insane…
“Please stop acting like it’s just a moment of anger. If the same comments were made about women, black people, gay people, mexican people, etc, it wouldn’t be brushed under the rug as “being angry.””
Actually, generalities about women, black people, gay people and mexican people are made constantly, and swept under the rug constantly. And the people who make those comments are rarely asked to apologize for them (especially when the comments are about women), and so the “moment of anger” excuse is rarely heard. I’m guessing that you don’t belong to one of these groups, or else you would already know that.
And yeah, I’m not nearly as concerned about “misandry” as I am about ACTUAL discrimination towards oppressed minorities, because “misandry” has no real-world consequences. In fact, I’m not concerned about misandry, at all. Think about it. Who will the title of this blog post actually harm? I’ll answer the question for you – nobody.
I am a loving and caring person, so that I often get angry at injustices and inequalities.
I give so deference to MDs. Clearly MDs are dedicated to caring for the human race. And so amazingly dedicated, and able to see the beauty and dignity in so many people that I often have problems with myself.
But then I read about this MD becoming a dictator or tyrant, or that MD becoming head of a group of terrorists. That other MD falsifying their taxes, or falsifying research, or scamming the public.
And as a skeptic, I realize MDs are mostly people just like the rest of us.
Taslima, you are truly bigoted. I am not sure why, I am not sure what happened to you. Something did happen, and for that I am sorry, but you are twisted and ill. It’s 2013 and you exist to divide humans not to cure them, not to help them, not to alleviate their conditions.
You lead a privileged life, and you bring despair to people.
You have my best wishes, but your behavior is terrible inappropriate.
How the fuck does Taslima “bring misery to people”? Funny how you criticize Taslima for making generalities, but then you employ ridiculous over-dramatizations in your own stupid comment. Don’t be so dramatic.
And no, she doesn’t have a “privileged life”. Seriously. If you can’t even be bothered to read her biography, then don’t comment on her life.
Phew. Good thing misandry isn’t a real thing.
“Misandry”? Give me a fucking break.
So some people don’t like men? Boo hoo.
Unless those people have the social power to translate their dislike into systemic discrimination, it doesn’t mean squat. And, MRA fantasies aside, they don’t.
Sexism against men, racism against white people (in white-dominated countries)–these are not serious problems, and if you’re derailing a thread about the brutal gang rape of a young girl to whine because somebody said something to hurt your feelings, you’re probably an entitled, self-centered jackass.
Excuse me, but why does discrimination (or any other bad behavior) have to be “systemic”?
Is it okay if only done by a small group, or only on occasion?
I recall the Rodney King riots, during which several white people were specifically targeted (and executed…one very near where I live) because they were white. That strikes me as pretty serious, but if we get to shoehorn individuals into some or another group we don’t like and then justify ill-treatment then I suppose it’s open season on everybody, because we can all be placed in some-or-another kind of barrel.
I also recall a certain wave of panic in the mid-90s about poor, innocent waifs recovering “repressed memories” of rapes made by their evil fathers/uncles/cousins etc…all of which was garbage. How many lives were destroyed by the stupid, sexist presumption (made by millions) of truth given to those claims?
If the blogger makes obviously-bigoted, outrageous generalizations, the blogger shouldn’t get a pass just because of the bad act the blogger is discussing. The blogger (and her defenders) need to figure out that bigotry isn’t helpful no matter who the speaker, and what his or her sex may be.
Disregard if you think running about throwing verbal handgrenades at people is helpful…
Exactly. I agree with you. Did you think my comment was sarcastic or something? It wasn’t.
I read the article as “there are men like this everywhere”, not “all men everywhere are like this”. I think it’s fairly common in writing to make statements that seem overly general because it seems unnecessary to always provide the caveats and nuance that are implicit in what the writer is trying to say. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe we should always take the time to be a precise a possible to avoid any misunderstandings. For me, I think too many people react without examining the content thoroughly, but in those instances a request for clarification from the author is the first order of business.
That’s fair. I understand and agree with what you’re saying. It’s a far better way of putting it, if that is actually what Taslima meant.
This. In our world, at this point in history, patriarchy is (virtually) everywhere, save for a few isolated tribes that were somehow spared the various waves of colonialism, AND didn’t develop their own brand of it. Patriarchy, in turn, breeds men like this; it gives them space to grow and feel secure in their views. So men like these are present everywhere, and it’s important to see the line that connects Steubenville High with the bus in India; to understand that yes, there is rape culture and patriarchy everywhere, and no, it’s not just ‘an Indian thing’ or ‘a Muslim thing’ or even ‘a white trash thing’ (I’ve heard that last one in reference to violence against women in America before, and it’s also bullshit; rape and misogyny exist in Ivy Leagues schools and wealthy suburban enclaves, too).
Nicely put. Thanks.
Blow it out you’re ass Crangle, if you can manage with your head in the way.
*Your*
Dang it
So a teenage girl is drugged, publicly raped and humiliated, the perpetrators are being defended because of their privileged status as football players…
…and olivercrangle thinks the important thing to get upset about is the title of the post?
What happened to that young woman was pure evil and you’re contributing by acting like it’s not as important as your hyper-sensitive ego. Just shut up and go away you evil, small minded, insensitive, unthinking piece of dirt.
Exactly!!!! I disagree with the title of the post myself, but considering the content of the post I think the title is not exactly worth fighting over. I would have titled it women-haters, as some of the people making filthy comments are probably women..
Why are some of you outright LYING and saying it was just in the title?! It’s in the god damn post too! What, did she edit the post or something? Stop it. Just stop it. And stop making excuses for it. Only people who’re sexists themselves, guilty of it themselves, or only care about sexism towards women (sometimes attributed to a rooted view that things are worse when they happen to women.. because we are supposedly delicate and vulnerable or some exaggearated sexist shit like that). Just like how NBP-ers downplay racism against the other side – why? because they’re racist. (the “white people must be killed” crew… chilling.)
I didn’t say it was JUST in the title; and that doesn’t matter, the point is the same.
Let’s try it this way; if you’re more upset about a bit of ambiguous phrasing which you’ve chosen to take as a personal insult than you are with what was done to that young woman then there is something seriously wrong with you.
Why?
Why do you types do this all the time?? Any criticism over language that can’t be completely avoided by you, it suddenly becomes an insignificant little comment not worth mentioning in the first place.
That is one of your signature responses. It’s nothing to get worked up about, you say, but if I, or other critics , mention that could be slightly misconstrued as the tiniest slight towards women, it is a fucking indication of misogyny and rape mentality.
Just watch, everyone, how many times the fanatical elements of The New Feminist movement play down the import of anything one of them has said. How many times have we heard that it is really minor slip of the tongue, or not meant the way it sounds, , and that YOU ARE AN IDIOT THAT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED TO WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. They insist that any interpretation that they don’t like is mere nitpicking, and you need to grow up, or go back to your MRA trolls, or go whack off.
If we offer our opinion and express that we find a phrase insulting, no effin way, TNF says, you are wrong, and certainly not entitled to your opinion. Why do you even think about such trivial shit, they insist, because it is nothing compared to the horror that the woman we originally came to discuss went through.
All the while taking the time to command their opinions of us, when they are not addressing the OP themselves, but taking just as much time to address what they say is a trivial matter that wastes everyone’s time.
Such immediate hypocrisy, within one sentence, shines like a lighthouse in the night.
There is more than something seriously wrong with you, A Hermit. Your confirmation bias has destroyed any hope, for you, of actually practicing the equality you so vehemently preach.
I would like to know why it is a waste of time, eating into time better spent moaning about fucking men that are doing it, yet again. How about that. If it is so all important not to waste any timr on the topic, then it is wasting time whenever you yourselves comment anywhere that isn’t addressing the problem at hand. Watching TV is trivial compared to the OP, how can you stand yourselves wasting time when you could be out addressing this very issue.
Do you know something? It is critically important to stand up to your bigotry and poisonous attitude. Almost nothing is more important, because you spread a sickness that tears the atheist community apart. You spread a disease that alienates anyone that wants to work with you, without being belittled, towards a noble cause.
I am beyond sick and tired of your one track mind that can only react, or place prominence on, the merest perceived slight to your pathetically fragile egos.
So, let’s have it. It’s your turn to explain how worthless my opinion is because I am just another MRA misogynist, oppressing women that dictate everything that is important to anyone in the vicinity.
Oh, look. It’s a male MRA troll pretending to be a female feminist. How original……… NOT.
And you get extra points for the white supremacist rhetoric.
Yeah, assholes like eucliwood were afraid of the original Black Panthers too. There was systemic racism against African Americans everywhere, but oh boy, let some people stand up for themselves and fight fire with fire–suddenly people just like eucliwood were very offended by “racism” (“racism” being anybody anywhere saying anything uncomplimentary about white people.)
You’re talking to me, too. I’m not defending the football players, rape culture, or men in general. I’m not excusing the horrific, sickening crime. I simply refuse to look at the innocent men I know, many of whom are actively involved in women’s rights, and paint them with the same shit-encrusted brush as the criminals who abused the young woman in this case.
It isn’t about us poor poor menz, you halfwit….you’re ignoring the horrific crime to whinge about your perception of a slightly ambiguous headline.
Empathy…you’re doing it wrong…
I hardly think I’m ignoring it (in fact you can read just up there that I called it “a horrific, sickening crime”), and I hardly think the headline is “slightly” ambiguous. The video sickens me. In no way am I minimizing the rape or abuse. I just wanted to say that men are not, in fact, the same everywhere, even if rape, abuse, misogyny, and other crimes exist everywhere, and even if those crimes are overwhlemingly, disproportionately, committed by men, which I understand is the case.
I just find it amazing that anyone could read that story and think the important thing to make a comment about is the slightly ambiguous headline. Aren’t your priorities a little screwed up there? Why is your first reaction to criticize the headline, with reaction to the rape only coming later?
Even if Taslima’s headline was a little clumsy your own reaction to it was much worse. And Oliver Crangle’s was despicable.
A Hermit, the first reaction wasn’t to criticize the headline. My first reaction came when I first heard about the rape and abuse (remember, it was not just a rape, others were involved who did not do any actual raping but were involved in abusing the young woman). The reaction to the headline was more like, “Oh, no, let’s get back to the actual people who commit crimes and not waste time wrongly accusing and alienating the innocent, given that many of them fight on our side as well.” I’m sorry I did not make myself well enough understood and that the timing and order of my sentences threw you off. I don’t have anything to say about or to Oliver Crangle.
Actually your first comment here, the very first comment in the thread, was all about the perceived slight against men.
https://proxy.freethought.online/taslima/2013/01/05/men-are-the-same-everywhere/#comment-52219
You seem to be confusing my first reaction to the case with my first post in this thread.
This thread is what we are discussing. I have no way of knowing what you may or may not have said elsewhere, I;m not a mind reader.
Your first comment here; the first comment in the thread, was all about men’s feelings.
But it was not my initial reaction or entire reaction to the rape and abuse, and you cannot claim that it was, since you are not a mind reader.
It’s not a fucking headline. It’s in the post too, and it’s not ambiguous. A Hermit, the thing is, you don’t care about sexism BOTH WAYS, so you don’t understand what it’s like for a post about a horrific crime to be completely botched by this. Imagine reading a post about the horrific crimes Stalin committed (some people believe he was Jewish – not sure if true?) just to have someone fuck that post up by putting Anti-semetic messages into it.
A person, even if they are upset about the crimes he committed, would generally make their reply about how awful it is that they’ve messed it up by putting anti-semetic messages into it. Meanwhile, on posts that DO NOT botch things, they’d be writing about how fucked it up that he did those crimes. I commented elsewhere on things like this, with FULL empathy for the victims, but I cannot ignore the sexist nature of THIS post on it.
“Blacks are the same everywhere!” wouldn’t be ambiguous, would it?
“Jews are the same everywhere!” wouldn’t be ambiguous, would it?
Another thing I hate is that the excuses for this woman VARY. Shows that people are just scrambling for any excuse instead of admitting that this post is wrong.
Reading about the situation in India is already upsetting without someone applying a double slap by simply adding misandry into the mix… that’s NOT needed. We don’t know the misogynistic cultures, and we don’t need the backlash of hatred of males from it. Don’t you dare call calling it out, and saying it’s WRONG, as “lacking empathy for the victims.”
I’m a middle aged white man and my first reaction here is horror at the rape, not offense at a headline; trying to make this about “misandry” is just ignorant.
Men are the same everywhere, and far too many of my fellow men think rape is a joking matter. The point of that comment is that men in North America shouldn’t be too smug about their own culture, not “all men are rapists” at least that’s how I read it.
It’s not men who are being persecuted here; the story is more evidence of a pervasive and sick part of our own culture that places more value on masculinity (here in the form of football mania) then on the life, safety and dignity of a young woman. THAT’S what you should be getting upset about, not some perceived slight to the poor, poor men…
A Hermit, I told you I’d already gotten upset about it and commented accordingly somewhere else. I don’t care what your age or race or sex is. No one is making the CRIME or posts about it in GENERAL about misandry, and pointing it out is the *right* thing to do. In other places without sexism, the comments are about what? empathy for the victims.
And wow, nice thing you’ve got there… look, A Hermit, it’s not right for someone to be sexist against women and it’s not right for YOU to be sexist against men either, even if you are a man. I hate that people like you are allowed to be outright sexist just because it’s men. Men are people too. How about you care about PEOPLE? And the “poor, poor men” shit… that’s what people say who think men are supposed to be the more solid sex, who think it doesn’t matter when something is said or done against them. I’m sorry, it will just ALWAYS remind me of the people who mock it when things like violence, even, happens to men and they act like its no big deal because “well, duh, it’s a man. Oh, the poor poor man got punched out by his girlfriend, so what?”
Would it be acceptable to you if someone wrote sexist comments about women and someone replied with some belittling “poor, poor women” shit?
I hope you change one day. I don’t want to spam up this page, so if you want to continue, well, lostforwords87@gmail. I’d appreciate it.
And yeah, in THIS SPECIFIC POST men are being discriminated against. You cant ignore that. It’s not “Either be upset about what happened to the victim ORRRR be upset about the sexism, and if you pay attention to the sexism, you aren’t moved/dont care about what happened to the victim.” False dichotomy.
And this culture does suck. The fact that someone can be report rape against a person with high status and not be believed is disgusting, and Ive already raved and ranted against that. Did you know that that happens when men are raped too? So why are people always specifying a sex? It’s one thing when you’re just commiting on a particular crime that happened to a woman – it’s another when you say its a problem of placing value on *masculinity* in general, as if when men report rape against people of high standing, or even report it at all, they aren’t dismissed.. even told to get the fuck OVER it if people know it happened to them. It happens to BOTH sexes, and it’s disgusting. It needs to stop. Trivializing, or totally ignoring the time it happens to men is wrong.
If you’re so sexist that you cringe at the thought of recognizing it happens to men too, just think about it as a *people* thing. Victimization even after someone is already a victim of rape.. happens to PEOPLE.
And the rape joeks thing? What’s up with acting like it’s a “man” thing to do? Men *and* women are going around making rape jokes. That’s just another selective bias there.
Are you one of those people that go “Yeah, ladies, men SUCK, thats why I hardly have any male friends.” Because if you are, you shouldn’t be allowed to hang around ANY men. Just like the scum at MGTOW don’t deserve women partners or women as friends if they’re going to be sexist against them.
It’s degrading.
Oh, and stating that YOUR first reaction to it is X, is also now worthless, since you *agree* with the sexist parts in the post anyway. Of course you don’t give a crap about that and wouldn’t comment on it at all except to defend it. Do you have children? Imagine if you had a son, and someone was talking to him with sexist comments against men. Would you not care as much as you’d care if some asshole was coming at your daughter with sexist comments? You need empathy for HUMANS, A Hermit. Not just women. Not just men. PEOPLE.
I have sons, and I;m a man myself and I;m not so thin-skinned, and I hope my sones aren;t either, that my first reaction to a story about gang rape isn’t “that hurts men;s feelings….”
Do YOU have children? Imagine you had a daughter and someone was handwaving away the rape of a young woman like her and getting more upset about how the men feel?
Stop pretending to be a woman.
I sure don’t. Because only in one direction does it have any widespread impact on the people affected.
When men are the minority in government, in high-paying jobs, in representation in the media, when deadly woman-on-man assaults are common, when woman-on-man rape is common and people blame the victims and most of those rapes go unreported and only a tiny minority result in convictions…come back and maybe you’ll find some sympathy.
Is that what he did, A Hermit? I thought he addressed what Taslim said in the actual post, here,
Whoops?
Want to recant?
No, I’m not going to recant you little twit; there are two issues here; the brutal rape and public humiliation of a young woman an observation about the cross cultural nature of the kind of attitude that contributes to such crimes, which some thin skinned people are, for some reason, taking as a personal affront.
Which is really the more serious issue? Which one deserves more attention? Who deserves our sympathy more here; that girl or oliver crangle and his fragile ego?
I’m sorry, are you pulling a “Dear Muslima”?
Ugh, I can’t even read the comments anymore. The fact that people actually think they can defend themselves when their comments are just indefensible. Humans are the #1 cause of self mutilation, I swear. Not just physical, but emotional too, when you think that anything you say will matter, so you go ahead and read the crap, only to feel shitty and not have made any progress at all. Eu’s out.
(Btw… comments laughing about someone’s legit and valid mix of emotions and upset isn’t cool, so don’t do it. don’t talk about ‘rage quits’ either. Had that happen to me elsewhere with some FtB commenter)
Pitchguest, I am a girl. I am not upset about the sex confusion, but please refer to me with the correct noun. Thanks.
Unless you didn’t mean me.
And what does oliver crangle have to do with anything? Oh, and lemme guess, he’s got a fragile ego, implying he only gives a crap about sexist comments against men because he’s a man and it hurts his ego? No, it’s called being fair and not tolerating sexism against *anyone*. That just shows how people don’t really expect sexism to be called out against the ‘unmarginalized sex’ so to speak. People thinking “well, damn. Okay, that’s a man, his ego must be wounded is all.” And I guess when it’s a woman “Okay, she’s just too into equalism.”
And A Hermit, for the last god damn time, it already GETS attention… stop accusing us of not thinking about the victims. I already tried explaining to you… it’s not about tht being more important than what happened to her. thing is, when the post is botched up by a bunch of sexist attitude, that’s what the replies will be about – for people who give a crap about it, anyway.
Posts ELSEWHERE about this are full of empathy for the victims.
Again.. imagine a post about Stalin’s horrific crimes. If someone added a bunch of Anti-Semitism into it, it would make you fucking sick, wouldn’t it? Like “wow, stalin’s crimes were sick and wrong, but its wrong to promote anti-semitism alongside real victimization.” In class.. I’ll be thinking about the victims and the crime. When anti-semitism is added in, i’ll stil be thinking about it. But I *WILL* correct the person adding anti-semitism into it.
And you should too. It’s no different, whether it’s against jews, women, blacks, whites, or men.
A Hermit, I’ll give you this – Perhaps it’s overcompensation for making sure the poster gets that the crime was horrific, but that it’s NOT right to add sexism or discrimination into it – you wanna make sre that’ it’s spoken against, and you think it’s already GRANTED that you care about the victims… and that you consider it the more important issue.
“you” is used in the general sense here. It doesn’t mean you, personally, A Hermit. You’ve sent the message loud and clear – Sexism isn’t okay, unless it’s against men and boys. Anyone with a penis, I guess.
No, that was for olivercrangle.
@ Eucliwood
Fucking liar. You’re not a “girl” or a woman. Its REALLY FUCKING OBVIOUS that you are male. Sorry, but you just aren’t good at this. Your language and fanaticism give you away, so try harder, fool. I see guys like you online all the time, and I never let them get away with it.
Seriously – What the fuck is the mra obsession with pretending to be women online? What do you think you’re achieving? You’re an idiot if you think that pretending to be female is going to win real feminists over to the mra side.
I guess this is what mras consider to be “activism”, huh? Pathetic
@Pitchguest
Shhhh!! Eucliwood is pretending to be a female feminist, and you just gave ’em away by saying “he”. Come on!
BTW – you suck.
Badgersdaughter – “paint them with the same shit-encrusted brush as the criminals who abused the young woman in this case.”
Who cares. Also, stop pretending to be female and feminist.
I’m female and a rape victim, and I also couldn’t recover from the rape and abuse in an abusive marriage years ago until I realized that all men were not rapists.
1. The video isn’t working. Use this link instead http://youtu.be/2vtHCYyaIeI .
2. Are seem totally drunk. It is not clear if they were actually involved or joking about it.
No, this post is… NO. That’s wrong. Why are there so many people fighting against sexism who are sexist themselves?! I don’t understand the hypocrisy. This post is so upsetting… it talks about a horrible situation in India that’s depressing to think about.. but then it slaps me in the face with its misandry against men. I fucking hate sexism, no matter which way it goes. Just ruined my afternoon… and then the fact that there are commenters BACKING THIS as a “moment of anger.” Come ON. You don’t switch into sexism in a moment of anger. If someone else wrote the same words about women, they’d be sexists to me. And I’m sure they’d be sexists to the people saying we should excuse her because it’s a “moment of anger.” Um, no. Sexism, racism, ableism, homophobia, etc… it’s not excusable, not even in a moment of anger. I’m pretty sure this poster thinks this about men in general, whether she’s angry or not. She’s simply sexist too… like the people she writes about. Face it and stop making excuses when you know good & well you wouldn’t make excuses if it was reversed.
Go away you sad little whiner; am I supposed to feel sorry for you because you choose to get all worked up your misinterpretation of a blog comment? Am I supposed to pay attention to your feelings instead of to the problem of rape and the culture that makes horrors like this one possible?
Take your pathetic, self pitying comments somewhere else you narcissistic jackass. It’s not about you…
You ARE pulling a “Dear Muslima”!
Wow.
I mean, yeah. I agree. The concern of Taslim’s sweeping generalisation of men and her seemingly misandric comments do pale in comparison to the gangrape in India and the rape of that other girl, but … wow.
Since the subject here IS the gang rape of a young woman it is hardly a “Dear Muslima” to suggest that maybe that should be the first concern, and not the perceived slight against men.
The “Dear Muslima” tactic is about changing the subject, which is what you and Oliver Crangle are doing.
Let’s not talk about the gang rape, let;s talk about the poor opressed men…
Here’s the other thing about the “Dear Muslima” thing; Dawkins appeared to be saying that Western women shouldn’t complain about sexism because women elsewhere have it so much worse. But here we have a case which puts the lie to that idea; there clearly is a serious problem in our own culture and that’s the point Taslima was making.
Oliver Crangle doesn’t want you thinking about that though. His feelings are so much more important…
MISUNDWEEEE!!!!!
Stop pretending to be female
Taslima,
I am appalled to read your twitter feed and see you making
https://jp.twitter.com/taslimanasreen/status/287204079615242241
1) making jokes about the rape of men
““Does rape of men make rape less gender-subordinating/feminizing?” . “No, it means men can be feminized too.””
2) claiming that women cannot rape men
@antidespondent Shut the fuck off. Women do not rape men.
All that stuff that said you are worse than an ignorant bigot, and that you are a man hater, a misandrist.
Yeah, turns out I didn’t know how right I was.
You sure do fit FTB well though, I give you that!
Look everybody! oliver’s here! Stop talking about the woman who got raped, it’s time to talk about oliver’s feelings, cause that’s what’s really important…O.o
Taslima Nasreen’s many bigoted, misandric statements are okay because
A) Some of her best friends are men
B) She is only joking
C) There are more important problems to be solved
D) She’s a girl, …
E) It’s harmless, man up and ignore it.
F) She is telling an essential truth
G) It’s true and you know it.
H) Get a sense of humor
I) MISOGYNIST!
J) because, because, because PATRIARCHY!
K) By calling all men rapists, she is challenging social norms with subtle and complex humor
L) By tweeting men cannot rape so fuck off, she is working for a better society
M) MISANDRY AIN’T REAL
N) Women can’t be sexist against men
O) She has a pussy so we can’t be as stringent with our standards
P) Maybe she’ll sleep with me if I defend her
Q) FREE THOUGHT BLOG YEAAAARGGGHHHHH!!!!
R) You’re the hater here, not Taslima
S) Poor you, what about the menz!
T) Can’t a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair.
U) A✝
V) Taslima, award winning doctor is the person oppressed here, not you stupid crangle
W) Stop gaslighting us by saying she’s a bigot!
X) Troll!
Y) She has to be brave to be able to make such jokes in today’s misandric society
Z) nuh uh
That’s right oliver; it’s all about you; no one should pay any attention that poor girl who got raped; obviously she can’t have suffered half as much as you, you poor fragile little thing…
I don’t know how you carry you, you’re a genuine martyr, you are…O.o
“Duh oh!!! Itz misundweee!!!”
And the MRA wahmbulance arrives at the scene of the accident, as usual.
Don’t you guys have lives? Jobs? Families?
Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91O3wDSy_HE
you can see the infamous episode of “The Talk” where the women in the panel AND in the audience cheered and laughed at the man who got his penis cut off by his wife.
Are all women more or less the same misandric violent mutilating creatures everywhere? Women love castration jokes. They verbally mutilate the already mutilated man.
The bitter truth is, Misandrists are everywhere
Well that’s kind of the point of this post; that we North Americans shouldn’t be too smug about our own attitudes. Men really are the same everywhere; most of us are probably nice guys but enough of us are ignorant and unfeeling enough to treat women like objects.
Why do you have to try and make a story about a girl getting raped into a pity party for men? What the fuck is wrong with you?
The point is that women are really the same everywhere; Most of them are probably nice girls but enough of them are ignorant and unfeeling enough to laugh at a man who got a part of his body mutilated by a woman.
Why do you have to try and make a story about a man who got mutilated into a parable about the North American culture? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Oh wow, I see what you’re doing here ; you’re trying to give us a “taste of our own medicine”. Right? Ouch!!
Nope. Still don’t care about “misandry”.
Drop dead.
The actual point, one which maybe you could see if you stopped trying to make appeals to emotion, is that judging an entire group of people by the actions of some is fallacious.
Since misandry seems to get you rather angry, change the example to people who have been killed by african americans. Would it be alright to say all african americans are killers?
“The actual point, one which maybe you could see if you stopped trying to make appeals to emotion, is that judging an entire group of people by the actions of some is fallacious.”
OH, REALLY????
That’s funny, because I thought that the “actual point” of this blog post (and therefore, comment thread) was the vicious rape of a girl (female child) and the lack of justice she received. See, *you* are the one who’s derailing from the actual issue with the non-issue of Taslima’s clumsy title.
And no, “misandry” doesn’t get me angry, because it doesn’t exist, idiot.
And how the fuck often does that happen?
Let’s compare and contrast, shall we? Men mutilated by a women: maybe a few times a decade (?)
Women raped by men: (Once every two minutes in the U.S. alone.)
STOP MAKING FALSE EQIVALENCIES. STOP WHINING.
Very well, then, let’s change the example
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42634832/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.UOiqfazImtg : “Experts say more mothers than fathers kill their children under 5 years of age”
Since women killing children is more common than men killing children, according to your own logic, it means that all women are sadistic disgusting baby killers, right?
@ altair
you said ““Experts say more mothers than fathers kill their children under 5 years of age”
Yeah, well, more mothers than fathers also RAISE their children under 5 years of age. You didn’t mention that.
Do you want to get into a discussion about the millions of deadbeat dads in this country who take no fucking responsibility at all for their children? Do you want to have a discussion about the fact that women do much, much child-care than men? Do you want to have a discussion about the fact that poverty disproportionately affects women?
Oh, and guess what else? The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of rapists are MEN. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of spousal abuse is perpetrated by men. This is a discussion about the rape of a girl. Try again.
OH MY GOD THAT VIDEO WAS HORRIFIC I AM NOW AN MRA DEDICATED TO FIGHTING THE SCOURGE OF SOCIETAL MISANDRY THAT RESULTS IN A MAJORITY- MALE BUSINESS CLASS, CONGRESS, MILITARY, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM HOW COULD I BE SO BLIND?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?
no.
All you little whiners make me sick. A young woman is drugged, raped and publicly humiliated and you want to make it all about how of how some men are really nice guys…instead of about how the misogyny behind that kind of evil transcends culture.
Where the fuck are your priorities?
Again with the “Dear Muslima”. Unbelievable. I don’t disagree with your statement that we should get our priorities straight, but you know what? Your contention? Is fucking hypocritical. Don’t give me that shit about “priorities” just because a woman got gangraped in India. Yeah, it’s terrible and it trumps us being butthurt about Taslima painting a broad brush on all men as misogynists, everywhere, of all creeds, rich or poor, big or small, tall or short. However, as you fuckwits are so eager to portray, the ‘lesser crimes’ shouldn’t be ignored. No? This whole shit-flinging situation started when people like you couldn’t get your priorities straight so if you’ll excuse, while I agree with what you have to say, you can go fuck yourself. Sincerely.
It’s not “dear muslima”…it’s about this specific incident and the fact that you pinheads are more concerned with a perceived slight (which is mostly in your own heads) and are choosing to make that the issue instead of the rape of a young woman. That rape IS the issue here, not your precious, fragile little ego.
I’m a middle aged white man, I get it, I’m not offended by the observation that men are the same everywhere, and that too many of them are mysoginist assholes. I know that to be true, and the existence of a culture that puts football ahead of women’s right to not be brutalized is a bigger problem then your feelings.
The “Dear Muslima” tactic here is on the part of those who are pretending that somehow their perception of a slight against men is a bigger issue than the rape! We can’t talk about rape, or rape culture or the prevalence of the kind of attitude that lets these young men treat this like a joke because it’s SOOOO much more important to talk about how men’s feelings are affected by that conversation…
See? This is the definition of “Dear Muslima”. That you have one situation of slight and then you have another situation of a slight but worse. That is exactly what the original contention of Richard Dawkins’ intent in his “Dear Muslima” was meant to convey. But wasn’t the problem with “Dear Muslima” is that it marginalises the problems, the so-called ‘lesser crimes’, that are closer to home?
However, do you want to know what the beautiful thing is? I agree with Richard Dawkins. I agree with his “Dear Muslima” argument. I agree with it 100%. And so, I agree with you 100%. The bigger issue here is clearly the gangrape in India. But you have to see that using that argument is hypocritical and really, whenever you or anyone else derides the original “Dear Muslima” but then proceed to make similar arguments of your own, albeit to do with your own “priorities”, it’s a bit hypocritical, no?
As it is, since “Dear Muslima” is obviously not an argument that you want to continue using (that is, to get your priorities straight) you should also focus on Taslim’s seemingly misandric comments as well. The ‘lesser crime.’ The one closer to home.
As much as I abhor rape, I can do nothing to stop rape in India, and nothing to stop rape in Steubenville.
I can protest injustice where I see it, and I can point out that we cannot call for justice while perpetuating injustice.
And I can avoid the fallacy of the excluded middle (dear Muslima).
Taslima Nareen’s original post was filled with misandry, and was also factually conceptually wrong. This is backed up with her tweets today, joking about the rape of men, and saying that men cannot be raped.
I have no ability to affect change in India or Steubenville but I can protest Nasreen’s ignorant bigotry.
Think globally, act locally.
The original story here is the horrific rape of a young woman. YOU are the one pulling a “Dear Muslima” by trying to change the subject and make it all about men’s feelings.
You want to act globally and change something? How about acting to change the attitude that makes men’s feelings more important than women’s bodily integrity… you could start with yourself and your own behaviour.
You’re not clever.
It’s like every fucking thing has to be turned into MRA Whinge Club.
The irony of this post is just astronomical.
Not really. It’s pretty accurate.
Pitchguest, you should look up “irony” in the dictionary.
Yup.
A Hermit, My heartfelt thanks for understanding!
Well I thought your meaning was obvious…
it is easy to understand, I think the title did a great job in provoking critical thought 🙂 Amazed so many take offense to the allegation men are insensitive to rape rather to the gangrape and mockery of a young woman. Sort of proves the point of your title.
That’s a non sequitur. Can I post an article about a mother that drowned her kids, then insult the women when they comment by saying, for the umpteenth time, that all women secretly want to murder their kids. And when when they take exception to that accusation and they defend themselves, then I say to them, “how can you worry about defending yourself when a mother killed her kids?”
Saying shit like that is so slimy it is crazy. Using the report of violence on a woman to fucking take advantage of the opportunity to insult others, and use that to pull your insensitive shit. You radicals are never going to get it, never will you have the ability to examine yourselves and find insight.
I actually highly doubt that you f*ck heads have compassion for the victims. You only see it as confirmation of your own twisted perception of reality, that of that men are the enemy, and you need to spout your hate, anyhow, anyway. And you find all the opportunity to disguise your agenda under the facade of fighting for civil rights.
This is the second time this thread, that I have seen something going on, in blunt and clear terms. You types make me sick. If you know that ‘menz’ always react defensively when you try to paint them all with the same brush, then why the fuck do you do it? If you genuinely wanted to address the issue, you would leave it alone.
Instead, you get it started, and then YOU effing well DEFEND YOURSELVES by using personal attacks, and you add more insults and character attacks while you are doing it. YOU ARE THE ONES CREATING THE SITUATION.
It’s the old bait, and switch, in the most literal sense. You bait man, call them ‘menz’ when they point out an injustice, then use ad hominum and character assassination to get them good and roiled up.
Then you suddenly claim the conversation is supposed to be about the OP.
Do you know why people act the way you do? DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO DO WHAT YOU DO???
It is plainly obvious to everyone else that hasn’t drowned themselves in kool-aid.
Because you don’t have a defense. You are as much as admitting guilt to what you are accused of.
You are undermining a great cause by using it to further your emotionally crippled agenda.
No, we do both, but you would never allow that. Like I said, it is you that are the insensitive one.
You going to prove otherwise, or are you going to make another unsubstantiated judgement. I bet that it is impossible for you to respond rationally. I’m sure of it.
HOW FUCKING DARE YOU SAY THAT MEN SHOULD NOT ADDRESS BEING TOLD THAT THEY ARE INSENSITIVE TO RAPE
“Men love rape jokes”? WTF??? Well, women love shopping and acting bitchy so I guess we can say negative things about both sexes.
Haha. Nobody took your bait. I guess feminists actually aren’t as butthurt as mras.
this is mendacious misandrist crap taslima, i believe you know this.
First, it’s been pointed out before, but your generalization, stereotyping and prejudice make you look little better than many you criticize. OK, English isn’t your first language but it has been pointed out to you. If you were really a fifth-column MRA, it would be hard to tell the difference.
Second, even if there are problems everywhere, it doesn’t mean that everywhere is equally bad. Such a statement is a slap in the face of those who have worked hard to improve conditions.
“First, it’s been pointed out before, but your generalization, stereotyping and prejudice make you look little better than many you criticize.”
So Taslima is “little better” than the man who murdered his sister because of a poorly-crafted post title?
See? That doesn’t even make sense. That’s not what he said, FFS, he said that she is little better than MRA assholes. You got that? Really?
I feel so extremely frustrated by the way you interpret everything in such provincial light. It is shallow. Your anger towards men is so overwhelming that you cannot possibly participate in a discussion like this and stay grounded in reality.
That’s what I think, and I also think that nothing could be more obvious that that is what’s going on with you. You have some sort of a-social personality disorder about this. Personality disorders have, as a consequence, the blocking of a person being able to form normal, healthy, relations in their lives. The only bonds I see here are the common intention to belittle men, and then somehow conclude that your twisted perception is justified.
Hey, the title got toned down, lol. Appearances eh? Let me tone it down further so even less feelings are hurt: Rape is a global problem. It takes place all over the world. And the ideology underlying rape is the same across cultures.
^ That’s exactly the same point the OP makes minus one tiny factual detail that some may find uncomfortable and would rather not have it mentioned: all over the world, rape is a crime almost exclusively committed by men.
Again, this is not an issue pertaining individuals, but classes.
to quote nerd master of bs…’citation needed’
Haven’t you been following the case? You should have.
Pffft. It’s a well know statistical fact that the overwhelming majority of rape is committed by men. Like, what are you trying to say? Do you really think most rapist are female? Why are you asking for a citation? You’re seriously stupid.
If you want a report on global rape statistics, well, you have an internet connection. Use it, moron.
And if you find any evidence that most rape is committed by women, let us know.
seriously this and your tweets? you are a hideous misandrist, run these comments backwards thru a sex change filter…
Yeah, okay.
Now you can go visit any number of “MRA” blogs and tell them to stop making such disgusting generalities about women. Then, come back here to let me know how it went, hypocrite.
Good job losing allies by saying such senseless things. Seriously didn’t think that through. Oh we’ll, guess women are more or less the same EVERYWHERE!
Not so great, is it?
Thanks.
Losing allies? Are you saying you won’t speak out against rape now because Taslima hurt your feelings?
If that’s how weak your support was then you were never really an ally to begin with, were you?
Can we stop pretending that men suffer from sexism as much as women do? there are negative aspects for men as well, but nothing near as bad as what women have to live with.
what a buncha fucking little MRA crybaby assholes…
I’m pretty sure Taslima isn’t concerned about losing any MRAs as “allies”.
Can’t think of anybody who would be.
What’s your point? You have stereotyped MRA’s already, as if standing up for their rights precludes them from standing up for everyone’s rights.
She should be more concerned with her allies right now.
Curious, that you think in terms of ‘allies’
That statement speaks volumes, but you wouldn’t understand. Carry on. Have some more rope.
Sorry…..!
“Men love rape jokes”? Whoa there….I’m sure your point can be made without ridiculous overgeneralizations. Or is that just the way women are?
Okay. *Most* men love rape jokes. Is that better?
Seriously, most men and boys I know couldn’t care less about the damage that rape jokes do. And you’re one of them, no doubt – a bitter, stupid mra.
I see…..
Well, there is no need to address your comment – I only need to underline it. Good job, Malo. Good job.
Wow. You really put me to shame…….not
You didn’t respond because you have no response. I’m talking about my own experience. Prove me wrong. You can’t.
NO, YOU ARE THE ONE THAT DID NOT RESPOND BY SUBSTANTIATING YOUR BLATANTLY ABSURD STATEMENT.
FUCKING PROVE THIS RIGHT NOW:
You want to act sanctimonious? I will destroy you, because you don’t have the insight to understand what you are doing. You misinterpret almost everything we say.
GO AHEAD, PROVE YOUR CLAIM THAT : “Seriously, most men and boys I know couldn’t care less about the damage that rape jokes do. And you’re one of them, no doubt – a bitter, stupid mra.”
Yes, that’s a great come back, Malo, you really sewed that up in a logically rigorous and flawless manner.
It has been my experience that there are more misogynists in the US that we realize. (And yes, I know that not all men are misogynists.) What many here have learned to do is simply hide their true dislike of women behind politically correct statements.
The inverse of that is true. It is the women here that hide their hatred for men behind politically correct outrage.
PROVE IT
One word is missing. ‘Some’ or ‘many’. What would you say if my last sentence were ..’And some men, unfortunately, educated or illiterate, rich or poor, young or old, black or white, are more or less the same everywhere!’? Would you criticize those football players who raped a 16-year-old girl?
One word is missing. It could be a typo, or late night, or wine or just my anger! Is really one word missing? Yes it is, I have written ‘men’, but not ‘all men’, the word ‘all’ is missing. Why are you so upset? You should be happy for it. I did not mean all men are the same. I promise, I am not going to put all at all. But guys,it would have been better if instead of getting angry with me for a missing word, you got angry with those players who shamelessly raped and urinated on a girl and with those boys who shamelessly laughed while talking about the girl who was raped.
Patriarchal mindset will not be changed until you change it. You guys are more powerful than most women, I sincerely hope that you will be able to make the world safe for everyone.
ah ok that’s fine then, besmirch a sex but ‘oopsie’ was a typo?!?!?!? wtf
this is no longer going to pass
“wtf this is no longer going to pass”
Oh yeah? And what are you going to do about it?
Like, what are you gonna do, kick Taslima Nasreen out of America?
She’s accomplished more in her life than you ever will.
I’m not sure the words “some” or “many” are really missing (or necessary). They aren’t needed if we read charitably. As we always should. I like what Sophia says (below) about “ranges of behaviour”. If one accepts that premise, then to say “men are the same everywhere” is NOT the same as saying “all men are the same.”
When I mean all men, I write ‘all men’, otherwise I just write ‘men’. I say, men rape women. It means, men, not hyenas or snakes, rape women. I was unnecessarily attacked by MRA many times for they wanted to understand men as all men. I just do not want to fight with them over a silly thing, and do not want them to change the topic.
Sorry doctor, a doctor that tweets men cannot be raped is full of misinformation and bigotry and is in no position to blame an invisible sky demon like Patriarchy to explain away her own issues.
Please take me seriously here. This would be believable if this hadn’t been pointed out to you many times before.
I recently read about two women who were arrested in a child-pornography case involving several very young children, some even pre-school age. If I had a blog, would you be happy if I wrote “women are pedophiles”? Maybe you don’t understand the distinction. I speak several languges and live in a country where I learned the language as an adult. I realize that small distinctions can be huge differences. But take my word for it (as a native speaker of English): your writing “men…” really does mean “all men…”. Yes, “all men…” means that as well. If you mean some men, write “some men…”. As a journalist, you should know that the purpose of writing is to convey information, and if it’s worth writing about, it’s worth doing it correctly.
And while I’m on the topic: I am certainly as critical of Islam as a religion as you are, but all Muslim priests don’t rape children, so don’t write “muslim priests rape children”.
If, instead of “men”, it was Jews, or Blacks, or Indians, or whatever, then you would probably be in jail for slander by now.
Uh, yes.
Men are the same everywhere == Men everywhere are no more ‘good’ or ‘evil’ then they are anywhere else, they display the same range of behaviours irrespective of geography or even culture in many cases.
The point is the universality of rape culture, not ‘men are evil’. Gah.
all men are equal?….really
where on earth are you getting this? Equal?
No. Display the same range of behaviour =/= are all equal.
Women everywhere also display the same basic range of behaviours. The difference is in circumstances, not fundamental differences in personalities in people from different places.
The point, that you seem to be trying so hard to miss, is that we can’t ignore the rape culture elephant in the room by pretending it only happens to ‘those other guys’ in ‘that other place’. We have to own the problem, because we have it too.
Oh, piss off so very much, Sophia. Men are not the same everywhere.
Taslima – I’m not content with that either. ‘Some men’ are the same everywhere is a pointless exercise. Preaching to the choir if you will. But I don’t think you would like it if I made the same broad statements about women (and I won’t) since it’s likely to be misunderstood. Men are equally upset about this gangrape in India, so instead of judging prematurely and going on your prejudice, you actually reach out to men as well? I realise you might not take my opinion to heart considering I’m a privileged white male, but it’s something to think about. Cheers.
Piss off yourself; that’s not what she said.
When are you going to stop looking for reasons to make this about anything other than rape?
You said “Men are not the same everywhere.” and
“I realise you might not take my opinion to heart considering I’m a privileged white male, but it’s something to think about.”
So, you’re a whining white supremacist crybaby as well as a whining male supremacist crybaby?. Nice.
You said “Men are equally upset about this gangrape in India”.
Oh, really? Point me to the mra blogs that covered this terrible story, you liar.
The problem is it’s easy to just quote the title as it is (even after the edit) and go around saying Taslima Nasrin claims every single individual man is the same. People with a particularly strong desire to smack down Taslima Nasrin for whatever reason might want to add that she just said every single individual man is just the same as the murderers and rapists who brutalized Damini in India.
Yes, her point is that rape is a global problem (not sure about universal – do you have info on this? Is rape in egalitarian societies pervasive too?) and the mentality that lead men to rape is shared among cultures across the world, but people who, for whatever reason, would like to discredit Nasrin have been given a rare gift in the wording of the title.
There is no such thing as “egalitarian” societies, but yes, rape is common in the U.S.
Yes there are. Not talking about the US.
We’re talking about rape, though. Sexism and rape exist everywhere. Sexism exists everywhere.
TasLOLma,
Indian women beat the crap out of man.
Girls’s Dadagiri at D Y Patil college
Cheating husband beaten up by wife in India
School teacher beats the crap out of boy in Texas
Sheri Lynn Davis Beat Male Student, Gets ‘Deferred Adjudication’
Women the same everywhere.. they beat men. sometimes they even shoot them. Yet men are saints and love them in return 😉
To get away from the derailing trolls for a moment, an anecdotal story about my one sort-of brush with the city of Steubenville: In the early 60’s while in high school in Toledo, Ohio, our football team traveled (with the band) to that city. We won the game. The “fans” became incensed and attacked our band (not the team), including many women, as they were packing up their instruments at game’s end; some needed medical treatment. Our school struck off ever playing in Steubenville again.
A Hermit – As soon as you stop using “Dear Muslima.” 🙂
So, Taslima, what you’re saying then is that “rape – it’s more of a guy thing”?
If so, you might want to check with Party Central – i.e., Ed Brayton & PZ Myers (1) – who have been raking Michael Shermer over the coals – i.e., virtually calling him, in effect, the most odious sexist in existence since Day One for which he should be burnt at the stake – for him saying that (2) about involvement in the atheism movement.
However, I will agree with you to the extent that men are certainly more violent – about ten times as many men in US prisons as there are women (3). And there are other attributes where there are notable differences in the distributions for both men and women – Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate has an interesting summary in the chapter on gender. (4)
But about your “Men …are more or less the same everywhere”, while the intent or idea behind the statement is largely correct, I think it is very open to misinterpretation. It appears to me that it is more accurate, and maybe closer to what you had in mind, to read your “men” as different samples of, say, 5 men taken in different locations throughout the world – {A1, B2, C5, G17, H45} in Lower Slobovia; {A17, B42, C23, K42, M19} in Upper Mongolia; {D75, H29, N27, R82, Z19} in Eastern Patagonia; etc . By which token “men are the same everywhere” could easily be read simply as somewhat of a conjecture or hypothesis that the statistical frequency distributions – one rapist, two Christians, one Muslim, one scientist, etc. – are more or less the same in all cases. And which, of course, probably applies generally to women as well. But it tends to obviate or forestall any interpretation that you are arguing that all men are rapists – or scientists or politicians or businessmen or theologians or ….
However, from a broader perspective, it seems to me that a large part of the problem is the general unwillingness to accept that there is some truth to various stereotypes, in part because of an apparent aversion, which borders on mind-killing panic, to the conjecture – amplified and elaborated on by Pinker – that at least part of the reason for those stereotypical gender differences is actually genetic.
Can’t fix the problem if one refuses to even attempt an understanding of the causes, regardless of what they might be.
(1) “https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2012/12/12/thats-not-a-response-michael-its-a-denial/”;
(2) “http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=fi&page=benson_33_1”;
(3) “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Race”;
(4) “http://www.pasadena.edu/files/syllabi/txcave_18360.pdf”
If so, you might want to check with Party Central – i.e., Ed Brayton & PZ Myers (1) – who have been raking Michael Shermer over the coals – i.e., virtually calling him, in effect, the most odious sexist in existence since Day One for which he should be burnt at the stake – for him saying that (2) about involvement in the atheism movement.
Why don’t you give us a quote “virtually calling him, in effect, the most odious sexist in existence since Day One for which he should be burnt at the stake”. Having read both those posts, I don’t see it.
However, from a broader perspective, it seems to me that a large part of the problem is the general unwillingness to accept that there is some truth to various stereotypes
Stereotypes such as? I notice that you are very light on specifics.
crayzz said (27.1):
I did say “virtually”: “Existing or resulting in essence or effect though not in actual fact; or, Existing in the mind, especially as a product of the imagination”. It was some hyperbole on my part to characterize the rather voluminous and vituperative criticism directed his way.
“You can lead a horse to water ….” Maybe you didn’t read the links I provided above, in particular (3) and (4)? Or maybe, for example, you don’t think it qualifies as a stereotype that men are more violent than women or that that stereotype isn’t true? You might also want to read Pinker’s article with some attention as he describes in some detail probably a dozen or more others.
You know, I just realized that focusing on men who commit rape is a fucking red herring. Rape is the result of cultural deficiencies, not universal shortcomings of men!!
It is ludicrous to say that all men etc etc. We already know that is an egregious insult to the vast majority of moral individuals here that would never commit these kinds of extreme acts.
It is the fallacy of hasty generalization..
FFS, why didn’t we think of this immediately? It is WRONG to draw general conclusions from specific examples, it is extremely wrong.
Good point. Now, if we could just get PZ Myers, Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson, Stephanie Zvan, et al to realize this very true and very simple fact, maybe they’ll stop trying to hijack the atheist movement with their ridiculous over-the-top militant feminist nonsense and we can all go back to normalcy. Oh wait, I forgot, for them it’s all about speaking fees, blog hits and ego-feeding, not about actual logic and fairness. Never mind.
I have this theory that sex evolved out of rape. Like the first session of intercourse to ever occur on planet earth was when one micro-organism penetrated another with a stinger hoping to inject venom but instead the victim survived and when it split to reproduce it made one with a stinger and one without and then the one with the stinger started stinging other micro-organisms of the same species and started essentially impregnating them. I have no data it’s just a gut theory. I believe it because sex seems to have a predatorial nature about it as well as an intimate one. I found a wiki article about insects that have penis’ but no vaginas and so the male has to stab through the stomach and into the flesh to inject the seed. Meaning the penis evolved first and then the vagina evolved to accommodate the penis.
Now, I don’t believe that all men are natural rapists and that it can’t be helped or that rape is natural and okay. Rape is like cannibalism; all species do it and its insane when they do. I also believe that the most progressive kind of sex you can have is long term monogamy for the sake of romantic interest (as opposed to legal/property reasons like in marriage.) The more lust driven and emotionally insensitive/numb the sex the more regressive it is with rape being the most regressive sex that can be had. I think many cultures have lazily emerged out of regressive sexual tendencies. To end rape we have to create a brand new culture and probably a new society. Basically you need to convince the lion’s share of men that romantic, gentle and consensual sex is the manliest sex you can have.
I don’t understand how this attack happened. Couldn’t she have just taken a gun to the party? I’m told this solves the problem. More guns = more safety. The US should be the safest country for women in the developed world – oh wait.
So I’m going to be novel and address the post. That penis worship which Taslima describes has been my experience of religious culture in the US, and also of academic and working culture. It manifests, in the case of religion and in my experience, in rape. In academic culture, the assumption that men somehow have access to a secret truth by virtue of being male (whether that ‘truth’ is that emotions do not exist in men and therefore they are more logical and better able to reason, for instance, or that whatever flavor of god or nature designated men as a priori leaders/masters/etc.)
Were I to sit down and count how many times someone has grabbed me, groped me, exposed themselves to me, attempted or managed to penetrate some portion of my body with some portion of theirs, etc, the list would be pages long. If I added to that every time that someone refused to talk to me after finding out that I’m female, or talked over my head, or was condescending, or took things out of my hands, or used touch to shut me up in arguments, or talked over me because they, male, knew better or pushed me out of the way or any other method for silencing someone, I’d have a book.
I’ve met good men, but even very good men occasionally enact the same sorts of micro aggressions of dominance, because they are exposed to a culture which conditions them to assume such gestures are normal.
At the nasty end of the spectrum are incidences like the above, where young men who are occupying positions of great privilege do what they have been taught they can do because of who they are (white, male in an area which is oriented toward tradition, sports stars in a town which worships football, affluent and whose parents are, in many cases, persons of influence.) These incidences are not isolated, and they reflect a culture I’ve found in Japan, in the UK, in France, in Germany and in the US, all places I’ve lived or visited.
At the heart of the spectrum is that same, nasty idea: men are superior to women by nature, by nurture, by god or by fate. From that assumption, incidences like these flow. And, for the record, they are NOT uncommon, in my experience and in the experience of women I’ve talked to.
What’s most common is being ignored or shamed when the subject comes up.
Look, those of you who love to say “what about teh menz”, you have lost the argument here in spades.
You’ve tried to separate the claim of misandry from talking about the victim and rape culture, but you’ve failed, since the two are not so cleanly separable. Yes, it’s facile to say “Let’s talk about teh poow widdle menz when a woman’s been raped and men in the town don’t care”. But, like it or not, at some point you are going to have to grapple with “teh poow widdle menz”; that is, if YOU actually care about ending rape culture.
There is one thing, and one thing only, which will end rape culture: and that is men having empathy for women. (I really should say, “people” here, and not just “men”, since sometimes unfortunately even women contribute to rape culture via victim-blaming and misogyny. But I’ll let that point pass for now.)
If men are really as bad as you seem to think, and the same everywhere: namely, incapable of empathy, then you can simply forget about ending rape culture. Unless you think women could possibly prevail in an all-out violent conflict with men, which would mean women would have to become at least as violent as men.
If you think men are undeserving of empathy, for whatever reason, then you are simply a sanctimonious hypocrite, demanding empathy from men while refusing to respond in kind. In that case you have no right to demand it from them, and you will be contributing to rape culture by making things worse.
If, however, you believe that men are both capable and deserving of empathy, then you know what? SHOW SOME. Show some understanding. Understand that it’s insulting to be told that I must love rape jokes, and am more or less the same as the thugs in India and Steubenville, simply by virtue of sharing the same anatomy. There is absolutely no need for this in the OP; it’s completely gratuitous. OF COURSE it’s not in any comparable to the sufferings of women who are raped. However, pointing this out does not exonerate the OP. You do not have the right to slap me because women are raped. If you slap me; and, when I complain about it, you say “Oh teh poow widdle menz; it’s so terrible; on the other hand, so many women are being raped” it is not I who is the sociopath; it is you.
“Look, those of you who love to say “what about teh menz”, you have lost the argument here in spades. You’ve tried to separate the claim of misandry from talking about the victim and rape culture, but you’ve failed, since the two are not so cleanly separable.”
What argument? What the hell are you talking about? This was a post about rape culture, and the comment section got swarmed with smug, combative, strawman-building mras. And are you saying that simply talking about rape culture and rape victims implies that we hate men? That’s stupid. The reason that I don’t care about “misandry” is because it isn’t real. Yeah, I’m more concerned about rape and the worldwide oppression of women than your personal peeve with feminism. Get over it.
For the umpteenth time, it’s the way you fucking talk about ‘rape culture,’ because, for you, talking about rape culture(your words btw) is just an excuse to blame every man alive.
This is getting monotonous now, Malo. All you do is shovel the same shit, and when it has been buried, you dig it up and complain about all the shit laying about.
Time to move on. This isn’t a forum where the forum nazi’s complain about going off topic., Take a look around, Malo. Why is it that the only time, anywhere on FTb, that anyone cries, “that’s not what the OP is about’ is when it’s about ‘rape culture?’
You have already been handed your dinner on a plate stfu and read the thread. All your whiny complaints have been answered. You can just sit here and play by yourself now, the rest of us have moved on.
I just wish at some point people would grapple with the reality that women face.
Pretty much everywhere we go, always.
I have a friend who’s lived and traveled through large parts of Asia and India for the better part of the last 15 years or so. She’s a very tall woman, probably 5’11 or so, and not terribly feminine. But she wore her hair in waist length dreadlocks, which apparently still worked as a cue for “female” in most places.
At some point during her travels she cut her hair off. I think primarily just for maintenance reasons- I guess dreads require more care than they appear to.
Anyway, after she cut off her hair people started mistaking her for a man, at least until she spoke. You know what stuck out most to her? How often she got approached by people offering child prostitutes when she looked like a tall, white, male tourist. You know what else she noticed? How much nicer people were to her… at least until they realized she was female.
For the record, I don’t think “men are the same everywhere” is a good way to start way this conversation. At the same time I completely get what Taslima means. I maybe would have just said “It is the same everywhere.”
I also get that, cultural differences aside, there is nowhere we can go where we can expect to be treated as equals. Some places might be worse, and some individuals will be worse than average in any place, but there is no escape, ever. Respites, yes. Escape, no.
It’s everywhere. Even in the places you go to get away from it.
Not to go all emo, but to quote Radiohead: it wears me out. It wears me the fuck out.
Rape is an act of aggression and not of passion
Understanding the Mindset of a Rapist
Rape and sexual violence against women are pure acts of aggression and not acts of passion. The origin of the word rape is from Latin rapere to seize, carry off by force, plunder. The origins of the word too reiterate the fact that it is an act of violence and aggression. It is an act used to demonstrate power and humiliate the victim. The marauding armies of yesteryear used it as a weapon of fear and to establish their supremacy over the defeated. It is thus an act used by men to assert their so called supremacy over their victims.
Definitely the origins of the problem lie in the attitude that we harbour towards women. We pretend to treat women as equals but even women secretly pray for a male child. This attitude is changing but it is as difficult to weed out as corruption is. Dowry deaths continue and so do illegal abortions and female foeticide.
Domestic violence as a gateway
Domestic violence is surprisingly common with almost 1 out of 4 patients who report to a hospital with depressive or anxiety issues having suffered from some form of physical or verbal abuse at home. Brushing acts of domestic violence under the carpet is dangerous because they are a gateway to more heinous crimes against women.
This brings us back to the question as to where we as a so called modern society are heading and are the people committing these acts psycho-paths and deranged individuals. No these are average men and boys who were transformed into Frankensteins by a number of factors. If we assess the backgrounds of these individuals many of these factors will appear :
They were brought up in families where domestic violence was a common, day to day affair
Respect and sensitivity for women was never observed and so was never learnt and women were always treated as second class citizens.
They were not taught to express their emotions assertively which made it necessary for them to use aggression as a mode of emotional expression.
The family was dysfunctional and they were never shown enough appreciation making them individuals with very low self esteem.
Their self esteem needs were fulfilled by aggression and bullying others early in life.
They could not imbibe the values that come from being part of a secure loving family.
Their personalities have shaped into intolerant, short tempered and hostile individuals who cannot deal with anything that hurts their already fragile self esteem
They were not taught how to regulate their emotions and express them in acceptable ways
Alcohol and other illicit substances also contribute to the dis-inhibition that precedes these acts.
They have poorly developed super-egoes..In more lay man terms they have a poorly developed conscience which is determined by the values that we imbibe from parents,society and have internalized as their moral barometer.
Thus the perpetrators of such acts are victims as much as they are perpetrators. This does not absolve them of any of these crimes but as we cry hoarse about hanging the rapists and how they should be lynched publicly we need to also wonder why such events happen and who these people are, who commit such dastardly acts. They are themselves exposed to so much violence as children that violence and disrespect for women becomes a way of life for them. They never learn about gender equality and learning to be assertive without being aggressive.
That’s why every act of domestic violence that is brushed under the carpet may produce an aggressive and violent act in the future. Every neglected act has potential to give birth to a gruesome crime. We must learn to be intolerant to any slight against women no matter how small. Violence against women is an indicator of how our society treats its women and not of how individuals behave.
We need to be especially careful with all juvenile crimes and our juvenile homes need to be better equipped with more sensitive individuals who don’t treat them as young criminals but as troubled minds that need help. If this does not happen juvenile homes end up being breeding grounds for more aggression and violence.
We should teach our children gender equality along with sexuality education highlighting the importance and difference between the biological roles. This should happen not only in principle but also in practice. This will come about when we stop blaming girls who complain of sexual abuse and absolve the guilty because he is in a position of power in the family. This will happen when every girl child is wanted, dowry is an obsolete word and women are given equal opportunity. Only then will we have a truly modern society where our daughters can go out without apprehension, will not need pepper sprays and can express themselves without fear.
Steersman, the fact is that rape is more of a “guy thing”. That is not a sexist statement, it is a fact. The stats don’t lie. Even in cases where the victim is male, the perpetrator is very likely to be male as well. Rapists are overwhelmingly likely to be men. No one here has suggested that there is an innate flaw in maleness that makes them more likely to rape. What people at FTBs have pointed out over and over again is that the toxic patriarchy we all live in is to blame. We seek change in culture by changing minds. It just so happens that the minds that most need changing, in this case, are the minds of men.
Oddly enough, it is the raving anti-feminists who continue to assert that somehow, women are responsible for stopping rape because men cannot be expected not to rape. The misandry is in that argument, not the feminists’. It is that argument that treats men as beasts without empathy. Yet, while women are being told to fix this problem, we are told not to do it by speaking out against it or ever suggesting that men need to change one iota of their words, thoughts or behaviors. See, this is how sexism hurts everyone and feminism helps everyone. Men do need to change. Women do not need to be behind locked doors or burkas to keep them safe from a crime that (most often) men can choose not to commit. We do not all need to be Buffy, Xena or Dirty Harriet to walk this world without fear of rape. We need a culture that does not protect rapists and blame their victims.
“The importance and difference between the biological roles.”
??????
Steersman, are you the same MRA commenter that I seem to remember being regularly laughed at over at Manboobz, or is it just and unfortunate coincidence that two sexists douches share the same handle?
What happened? Did Dave kick you out, so you have to come here and be a clueless blowhard?
jackiepaper said (#35):
Greg – “males are testosterone-damaged females” – Laden would appear to disagree with you on that latter point. But I wasn’t disputing that “rape is more of a guy thing” or that it “is not a sexist statement” – it was a shot at those FfTBs who were claiming that Michael Shermer had made a sexist statement by asserting that “[atheism] is more of a guy thing” – which is also a fact; “the stats don’t lie”. (1)
Although I will concede that I may have been using the word “stereotype” somewhat incorrectly as the definition (2) – “A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image” – suggests that the problem with them is that people frequently use the characteristics of some segment of a population to judge all of it.
Have you, or any other members in the “sisterhood of the oppressed”, ever managed to capture a “toxic patriarchy”? Seems to me that you’re blaming an abstraction which, in itself, constitutes the “sin” of reification as well as looking rather much like feminist dogma. That there are some rather sexist and problematic attitudes floating about, I’ll readily concede, but my impression is that that is hardly a one-way street. For instance, your own “the minds that most need changing … are the minds of men” looks like it qualifies as a rather egregious example of sexist stereotyping. Likewise with this comment from another woman, in the context of a discussion on schrödinger’s rapist (3):
Fairly categorical – the implication being all men as there were no qualifiers such as some. And, I would say, fairly typical of many similar conversations that I’ve seen in the last while.
Citations required. And even if you managed somehow to find a few who might argue that rape is an evolutionary adaptation of some sort for some segment of the population – maybe a consequence or characteristic of the 2% of our genotype that comes from the Neanderthal line – I very much doubt that you would find many who would argue that that is a “good thing” – the same way that cannibalism happens but is hardly touted as a beneficial or desirable social behaviour pattern.
Apart from the stereotypical thinking implicit in “men do need to change”, I’ll agree that sexism exists and manifests itself in some rather problematic and egregious ways in society that we all need to address. However, your “feminism helps everyone” – like Ophelia Benson’s rather decidedly risible “connecting the word ‘virulent’ with the word ‘feminism’ is misogyny” – is, in itself, another egregious case of stereotypical thinking because they both fail to recognize the very problematic dimensions of feminism and whitewashes them away by asserting that feminism is defined only by the better aspects and consequences of it. To alleviate some of your rather profound ignorance in that regard you might want to read a book by several female professors – Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge – titled Professing Feminism: Education and Indoctrination in Women’s Studies (4).
You’re really on a roll with stereotypical thinking, aren’t you? I’ll readily concede, at least for the sake of argument although I’ll dispute the extent, that some portions of our culture “protects rapists and blames their victims”, but that hardly justifies suggesting much less concluding that that applies to the entire culture – the fact that there were some 54,000 males in prison (5) for the crime of rape would disabuse most rational and skeptical people of that view.
P.S. Pro-tip: Generally a good idea to respond directly underneath the comment you’re responding to or provide the post number.
P.P.S. Yes, that was me on Man Boobz, although I’ll dispute the “sexist douches” – which you assert with no evidence – particularly as I could, with as much if not more evidence, charge you with being a jackbooted feminazi and a Valerie Solanas clone ….
(1) “http://slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=73&p=37616#p37585”;
(2) “http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stereotype”;
(3) “https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2012/09/27/schroedingers-female-rapist/#comment-124010”;
(4) “http://www.amazon.com/Professing-Feminism-Education-Indoctrination-Studies/dp/0739104551”;
(5) “http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf”
Men can get awfully defensive when they are called out on their murderous actions. That is what we are seeing here. A bunch of guys who are defensive about being called what most of them truly are-perverted rapey murdering honour killing degenerate misogynistic bastards. I could go on. the truth hurts. To be barbaric is in their nature. Strong laws must be made to keep these fuckers under control!! Blame the dead, decapitated female for being murdered and beheaded. Now doesn’t that make sense? Guys are just afraid because the women and girls if the world are finally understanding the ugly truth about men. There will be more and more radical feminists like myself..Guys-you are essentially fucking yourselves over by being the assholes that you are known globally to be!! Keep behaving in this manner and see how much “pussy” you get from us women! You’ll have to hump the bed until your dying days haha!