In the beginning we did not allow girls to go to schools. We did not let them learn how to read and write. Then, after a long time, we allowed girls to go to schools because educated men desired to have sex with educated women. We did not allow educated girls to work outside because we wanted them to stay at home and take care of their children. We forced them to wear invisible chastity belts. Then, again after a period of time, we allowed girls to go outside to take jobs and earn money. But we allowed them to take certain kinds of jobs like nursing, like elementary teaching. Meanwhile we got so scared of feminist movement, we tried to crush that. Since then we have been telling girls they must not be feminists because boys hate feminists. We rather try everything to make the girls sex objects. We tell girls to become certain kinds of bodies because men desire certain kinds of bodies. We brainwash girls every day to buy stupid things and wear stupid things and become stupid things. We brainwash girls everyday to become nothing but a pair a lips or a pair of tits or a pair of high heels or a pair of funny sunglasses. We tell girls everyday and every hour that they have to think stupid, they have to speak stupid, they have to act stupid- only then they will be able to achieve their goals, they will look desirable, sexy. Girls have been forced to look sexy. Now girls want to be nothing but ‘sexy’.
We used to encourage boys to be scientists and girls to be prostitutes. But we soon have realized that girls can be clever, they are not just bodies and they can be other things than playthings for patriarchy. We now pay the price. We make a stupid video to attract stupid girls to choose careers in science. We have to make more and more this kind of offensive, insulting and disgusting videos, more pathetic trivialization of science, more sexist and demeaning videos, so that our sexy stupid girls can think a lab is a flirting zone and science means boiling hormones in tubes and bacteria culture plates are full of red lipsticks. The truth is most young girls today are either like video girls or they dream to be like video girls. We have to face the reality.
We are paying the price for putting our girls in the darkness for centuries. We now try to re-brainwash girls so that an interest in science can grow. We hope once they start studying science, their lifestyle will be changed. Their brains will start to think, their eyes will start to see, their ears will start to hear. They will not run after the wrong things we sell. They will fall in love with science and they will realize that science is the most sexiest smart thing in the universe. Stupid girls will turn clever girls.
Let’s hope for the ‘bright side of life’.
When I consider the situation regarding women in science I always come back to the same example: Rosalind Franklin. Here was a woman whose work was instrumental in enabling Watson and Crick to claim they had discovered the double helix of DNA yet they received the Nobel Prize and Rosalind Franklin was ignored. Why on earth should women want to enter a career where they will work hard but be usurped by men?
Franklin was ineligble for the Nobel, as she was dead.
I believe the Nobel prize in peace is the only one you need to be alive for. The science ones get awarded posthumously all the time.
Which, *ahem*, did not happen for dear Ms. Franklin.
I’m sorry. I am incorrect.
I just checked. I read a lot and sometimes I jumble the facts up. You’re right.
Also, Jocelyn Bell Burnell, who discovered pulsars.
I know of nothing more sexy than an intelligent and accomplished woman. The lip stick is just window dressing like the drapes in my house that are never closed.
Now, I take care of myself and my appearance and am attracted to women who do so as well. Is that sexist?
No. I take care of myself to attract the women I respect and am attracted to. If a woman does not take care of herself, I simply will not be attracted. There’s no mystery about that and it is not forcing them into any mode of dress.
Studies have found that most women dress for other women. That is, to gain the approval of other women, not men. Are women forcing women into high heels, make up and all the other modes of dress women adopt. Are designers like Donna Karan guilty or have men forced DKNY into designing womens clothes according to men’s dictates? I think the answer is obvious.
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It’s important to note the “we” in all this. It’s society that has shaped the accepted roles of women and what counts and doesn’t count as “sexy.” And if not an exception, you are certainly not the rule in your regard for educated women. There are a lot of men who will openly admit to not wanting to associate with women more accomplished than them. That is perceived as threatening or perhaps even unattractive, and yes, there are plenty of women who will agree that it is unnatural for a more accomplished, powerful woman to be with a less accomplished man. These are the ramifications of accepted social norms.
This is commendable, but the obsession with women’s looks doesn’t originate on the level of making an effort to be attractive to a fairly specific (potential) mate. Because that, as you pointed out, is mutual anyway, and doesn’t need to be obsessive.
The problematic part is that women’s worth is largely judged by their physical attractivity to men “in general”.
Ever noticed how a woman who chooses to not care for her attractiveness to men is considered hostile instead of just not interested?
Ever noticed how a woman’s looks are actively noted and included into the evaluation of her competence even in a scientific context? (In a no-win way, though: Too pretty means stupid, not pretty but trying is trying to hard, pretty but hiding it is hostile, and not pretty and not minding is not feminine enough. Similar scale for the too-boring-for-grandmaslutty dress sprectrum.)
Ever noticed how men’s physical attractivity hardly plays a role, except when their being athletic is positively noted?
Ever noticed how a woman’s qualities for any job are primarily measured by her being married to a desirable man and having kids, all but ignoring her career (prime example: Julia Gillard — who cares if you’re the PM of Australia if you are “deliberately barren”?, whereas TV commercials quite consistently identify “mums” as the true experts for anything), whereas men’s marital status is largely irrelevant?
So, I’m glad you’re an enlightened guy when it comes to your romantic preferences — I hope you promote this kind of enlightened approach in other situations, too.
“This is commendable, but the obsession with women’s looks doesn’t originate on the level of making an effort to be attractive to a fairly specific (potential) mate. Because that, as you pointed out, is mutual anyway, and doesn’t need to be obsessive.”
I don’t see it as obsessive. I see it as having pride in your appearance and I see it as a quality for both sexes.
The problematic part is that women’s worth is largely judged by their physical attractivity to men “in general”.
I don’t see it that way at all. I see women such as Golda Maier, the former Prime Minister of India, a very unattractive woman. She garnered the votes of both men and women to achieve her position.
“Ever noticed how a woman who chooses to not care for her attractiveness to men is considered hostile instead of just not interested?”
No, I’ve never noticed that.
“Ever noticed how a woman’s looks are actively noted and included into the evaluation of her competence even in a scientific context?”
No, I don’t think I have ever seen that. I’ve seen unattractive women achieve positions of power and importance. I’ve also seen head turning beauties stay at the bottom of the ladder.
“(In a no-win way, though: Too pretty means stupid, not pretty but trying is trying to hard, pretty but hiding it is hostile, and not pretty and not minding is not feminine enough. Similar scale for the too-boring-for-grandmaslutty dress sprectrum.)”
I haven’t seen this either that I could identify.
“Ever noticed how men’s physical attractivity hardly plays a role, except when their being athletic is positively noted?”
No. Business is all about succeeding and making a profit. Physical attractiveness doesn’t play a part
“Ever noticed how a woman’s qualities for any job are primarily measured by her being married to a desirable man and having kids”
In business, being married is only a factor for men. It implies that they have responsibilities and will have to work hard and succeed to live up to those responsibilities. These responsibilities are not generally implied to married women as they are not usually the primary “breadwinner.”
“ all but ignoring her career (prime example: Julia Gillard — who cares if you’re the PM of Australia if you are “deliberately barren”?, whereas TV commercials quite consistently identify “mums” as the true experts for anything), whereas men’s marital status is largely irrelevant?”
In business, men’s marital status is not irrelevant. Some companies simply will not hire single men. I do not know of any companies that will not hire single women
“So, I’m glad you’re an enlightened guy when it comes to your romantic preferences — I hope you promote this kind of enlightened approach in other situations, too.”
I can’t really say I’m an “enlightened guy.” As a business professional, I look for the person who can best advance the goals of the company. My manufacturing area was almost equally split between male and female. This was in an industry that has mostly male employees in the production area. Now, there was virtually no heavy lifting or other activities that required strength so most anyone could do it. It was more of a “cerebral” occupation. There were a few areas where men seemed to do better but there were also areas where women seemed to do better. All were paid the same wages.
There were some projects that required a mechanical ability and the men were clearly better at those. My best guess is that the boys are expected to repair their own bicycles and Daddy repairs the girl’s bicycles. The girls just never get the experience.
My front office was all female. The women who applied had experience in office machines and procedures. The men did not have this and did not apply If I don’t have any men applying, how can I hire a man? Same with women
If I advertised for “Heavy Equipment Operator,” it is unlikely I would have any female applicants. This is a job women could do but they do not apply. Heavy equipment operators are paid very well. Are the women eliminating themselves from these jobs or are the male employers eliminating them?
My experience has been that women will not even apply for positions where they will get dirty or sweat. Men will. Is that the men’s fault? Is the companies fault?
“My experience has been that women will not even apply for positions where they will get dirty or sweat. Men will. Is that the men’s fault? Is the companies fault?”
It’s the result of social programming. There doesn’t need to be any “fault” passed around, although by that I don’t deny that there have been overt barring of women in many professions, particularly in the past. In the past, as you are probably aware, women would be summarily dismissed from many professions the moment they got pregnant.
These days, many of the dictates exist almost at a subconscious level. Women don’t enter the heavy equipment profession because that’s not a “woman’s job” and men don’t work in the front office because that’s not a “man’s job.” Professional house cleaning is dominated by a female workforce, which just shows how brainless the distinctions can be. As far as I can tell, this seems to just be an extension of the prejudice that a woman’s place is in the home, and therefore that women clean homes.
People who cross these norms are judged with prejudice. A male secretary is “probably gay.” A female equipment operator must be a lesbian. A man who chooses to clean houses for a living is probably disturbed, one way or another, etc. Who thought up all these norms? Well, we all did. That’s the sad thing about it.
Hunt made some good points already.
I’d like to add:
How much time and money do you as a man invest in using creams to make you less wrinkly, hair care including frequent expensive cuts, make-up (just the basics: foundation, concealer, mattening powder, eye liner, mascara, eye shadow, rouge, lipstick or lipgloss), a varied and fashionable outfit complete with accessories?
For women, it is often pretty obsessive, and what is considered the expected “well groomed but natural” look can be a lot of work.
I wasn’t around at her time, and too young during Thatcher’s time. I did, however, experience first-hand how Merkel, Gillard and Hillary Clinton are perceived.
Especially with Merkel, I found it stunning how much the general discussion centered around her looking not particularly feminine, her hairstyle, the wrinkles around the corners of her mouth, and how she only ever wears black pants plus a jacket of varying colour. No such evaluations for the male candidates. (Sometimes the choice of expensive suits came up as a sign of competence.)
Wow, no “lesbian with unshaved legs/armpits” jokes around where you live?
I managed to see most of this in the course of a single conference, and repeatedly during job talks at different unis. In maths.
I heard “I was pleasantly surprised by your talk, really didn’t expect this when I saw you in that skirt” a number of times; with the same sentiment, I got told “not strut around like a princess” when half-running to a lecture in heels. In contrast, my best friend was told repeatedly by our supervisor that it distracts from her results that she’s wearing masculine clothing.
And the comments about the openly lesbian and feminist applicant for a lecturer position were quite unconcerned with her research, and mostly stupid jokes about how someone like that would not fit in.
Beg to differ there.
Business works through people interacting. So all the mechanisms of human interaction, rational and irrational, conscious or not, come into it.
And like it or not, physical attractiveness is still something that’s expected of women if they want to be taken seriously. Not movie star looks, but a certain baseline.
Firstly, it’s not just about business. It’s also about social status and recognition, which is to a large extent motivates people’s plans for life.
Second, there are enough tired cliches that still get taken far too seriously: Middle-aged women without kids are expected to be bitchy, cold and dangerously power-hungry “career feminists”. Young married women without kids are seen as a liability and just waiting to get pregnant at the worst moment. And ones with small kids are expected to be always absent because of kid trouble. Single women are taken to be hunting for a suitable guy among the co-workers. It’s not all negative: Married women with grown-up kids definitely have a great image of being no-nonsense and reliable.
I’m honestly glad to hear it’s that way, but you’re not really the representative example then.
Who complained about “male employers” eliminating women? We seem to be past the days when a woman mechanic wouldn’t find an employer.
OTOH, is it the woman who eliminates herself from these jobs, when society teaches them “women have to be nurturing and pretty” and “machines, especially dirty, powerful and heavy ones, are for boys”?
Look at the signage in a toy department (I’ve been to Target on the week-end and nearly had a fit). Boy Toys: Cars/planes/helicopters, weapons, superheroes, building site/construction stuff, physics/chemistry/astronomy sets, the small-brick kind of Lego. Girl Toys: Bratz dolls, cuddly sickeningly cute stuffed animals, princess/fairy stuff, craft stuff to make jewellery, Lego Friends with big panels and big shaped figures.
I think there’s a definite need to balance that and show girls that it’s totally ok for a woman to work with machines or in science, and she won’t be any less of a woman for that.
Oh, and while we’re at it, we can also teach men that it doesn’t make them less of a man to be a primary school teacher. This goes both ways. It’s just that the “guy jobs” pay more these days.
Ysanne wrote: “How much time and money do you as a man invest in using creams to make you less wrinkly,”
I don’t use those things because I believe the long term effects can be damaging. These creams usually have an oil base and I’ve seen the effect of oil on furniture finishes, vinyl and other materials. I don’t want that happening to my face.
“hair care including frequent expensive cuts,”
I do use hair spray, shampoo and conditioner but don’t use color. Don’t need it and am happy with my natural color.
“make-up (just the basics: foundation, concealer, mattening powder, eye liner, mascara, eye shadow, rouge, lipstick or lipgloss),”
I don’t need any of those products but I do know a straight married man who uses some of them.
“a varied and fashionable outfit complete with accessories?”
Yep, I may be something of a clothes horse. I have every closet in my house filled
“For women, it is often pretty obsessive”
That was certainly the case with my ex-wife. She had so many clothes she couldn’t wear them all in a year. I guess I have that same obsession. Several years ago, I was engaged and realized I would have to make room for her clothes. I have 9 closets in my house and they were all full.
“I wasn’t around at her time, and too young during Thatcher’s time. I did, however, experience first-hand how Merkel, Gillard and Hillary Clinton are perceived. Especially with Merkel, I found it stunning how much the general discussion centered around her looking not particularly feminine, her hairstyle, the wrinkles around the corners of her mouth, and how she only ever wears black pants plus a jacket of varying colour.”
And who was making those evaluations, men or women? It is my experience that men only make those evaluations about potential mates. I also know women make those kinds of evaluations about men. I’ve experienced it first hand.
“Wow, no “lesbian with unshaved legs/armpits” jokes around where you live?”
Never heard one.
“Young married women without kids are seen as a liability and just waiting to get pregnant at the worst moment”
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I’ll admit this may be a factor. It’s expensive to train employees. If a woman gets pregnant, it is hoped that she will return to her job after she delivers. During the meantime, a temp will have to be hired and trained. This is a burden on the employer. But until middle age, this is always a risk.
All companies are at risk if they employ females, especially young females and I see no downward trend in female hiring.
“And ones with small kids are expected to be always absent because of kid trouble.”
Didn’t experience that at all.
“Single women are taken to be hunting for a suitable guy among the co-workers”
That is the reason for “fraternization” rules.” I had two managers start a relationship. One had some personal problems and both got mad and left the company about the same time. It left the company very vulnerable at a critical stage. The company survived because everyone was cross-trained. They didn’t expect that. They thought they would destroy the company.
“It’s not all negative: Married women with grown-up kids definitely have a great image of being no-nonsense and reliable.”
I’ve found that all types of women are generally more productive. They seem to tend to focus better and not stand around talking when they should be working.
“I’m honestly glad to hear it’s that way, but you’re not really the representative example then.”
I dunno, I had the opportunity to walk around a competitor’s facility once and found much the same situation.
“Who complained about “male employers” eliminating women?”
That does seem to be the crux of this entire thread.
“We seem to be past the days when a woman mechanic wouldn’t find an employer.”
I dunno. I rarely see women in auto repair shops. I suspect that is mainly because they don’t have the physical strength. But I do know one shop that is woman owned and staffed and has been very successful for many years. This is an industry where there are few qualified and experienced women. (almost none)
“when society teaches them “women have to be nurturing and pretty” and “machines, especially dirty, powerful and heavy ones, are for boys”? Look at the signage in a toy department (I’ve been to Target on the week-end and nearly had a fit). Boy Toys: Cars/planes/helicopters, weapons, superheroes, building site/construction stuff, physics/chemistry/astronomy sets, the small-brick kind of Lego. Girl Toys: Bratz dolls, cuddly sickeningly cute stuffed animals, princess/fairy stuff, craft stuff to make jewellery, Lego Friends with big panels and big shaped figures.”
A few years back, I had the opportunity to witness something quite amazing to me. I watched a brother/sister combo very close in age as they developed from infants to toddlers. At the toddler stage, it was quite obvious they were already taking on role models. The boy instantly went to “boy toys” and the girl to “girl toys.” This was at an age that they couldn’t have been influenced by social norms. Grew up in the same household, etc. The boy had absolutely no interest in his sister’s toys and the girl had absolutely no interest in her brother’s toys. This told me these role models are instinctive.
It also reminds me of Bruce Reimer, the boy who had a devastating circumcision injury and was “converted” (sexual reassignment) to a girl at an early age. He could not live in that role and eventually committed suicide at age 38.
“I think there’s a definite need to balance that and show girls that it’s totally ok for a woman to work with machines or in science, and she won’t be any less of a woman for that. Oh, and while we’re at it, we can also teach men that it doesn’t make them less of a man to be a primary school teacher. This goes both ways. It’s just that the “guy jobs” pay more these days.”
I agree but will they accept that? From what I have personally witnessed, they are probably going to go into male and female roles on their own and without input from anybody.
Historically, the dirty and dangerous jobs are the ones males go for and get. Women simply don’t apply for them. Is that social conditioning or instinct? Same question for males.
One thing that puzzled me is school teachers. This is a job that has historically been known to be (relatively) low paying and women seem to flock to it. They spend vast amounts of time, energy and money to get a degree for a job that is known to be low paying. Why is that? That’s their choice. Not many men make this decision. Is it the men’s fault? The Father’s fault? Society’s fault? They have many options. Why do they choose this one?
“taking care of herself” meaning…? You need to name specifics. If you are talking about The Beauty Mandate then she is destroying herself when she takes part in it.
I don’t shave my legs or armpits. I cut my hair short because long hair is a pain to deal with. I wear clothes that are comfortable. I eat intuitively instead of based on a diet plan, and I exercise for fun. How the fuck is that NOT “taking care” of myself? I am psychologically and physically much healthier than the majority of women my age because of these habits, AND I have a shit ton more money in my pocket. You have no idea what it does to a woman’s mind to devote such huge amounts of time and money to gaining male approval. But don’t mind me, I am just some woman who must not care for myself since I don’t really care if I can give you a boner, right? What a joke.
“taking care of herself” meaning…? You need to name specifics. If you are talking about The Beauty Mandate then she is destroying herself when she takes part in it.”
Meaning watch her weight. Meaning to eat right. Meaning to wash and brush her hair. Meaning to pay some attention to her clothes. Just the simple things.
“I don’t shave my legs or armpits.”
I’ve never dated anyone who didn’t do those things. I can’t recall meeting anyone who didn’t.
“I cut my hair short because long hair is a pain to deal with.”
I’ve dated women who had very short “boy cuts” and found them to be very attractive.
“I wear clothes that are comfortable.”
Stylish clothing does not mean “uncomfortable.”
“I eat intuitively instead of based on a diet plan,”
I do that as well and I am very near my ideal body weight. I suspect if I weighed myself naked, I’d be there.
‘and I exercise for fun.”
I don’t exercise at all but I do do heavy yard work that replaces it.
“How the fuck is that NOT “taking care” of myself?”
No one said you don’t take care of yourself. It seems you might have some insecurities.
“I am psychologically”
You’ve been evaluated by a psychologist? The screen name you’ve chosen for yourself implies that you have some unaddressed issues.
“and physically much healthier than the majority of women my age because of these habits,”
Again, you’ve been professionally evaluated to make this statement?
“AND I have a shit ton more money in my pocket. You have no idea what it does to a woman’s mind to devote such huge amounts of time and money to gaining male approval.”
Yes, I had a wife once and she was determined to put us in the poorhouse buying clothes. Some she wore and some she would give to her sister with the tags still on after they had hung in the closet a year or two.
It really doesn’t take much to appeal to a man. Just a neat appearance and a quick wit
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“But don’t mind me, I am just some woman who must not care for myself since I don’t really care if I can give you a boner, right? What a joke.”
Well, you’ve already said you don’t shave. Men shave for women. Just different places. You have not met me so you don’t know if you care if you “give me a boner.” A former Miss America did care.
I’ve dated several women who wore no make-up except for a little around the eyes. They were beautiful and one was an absolute stunner. Another wore make-up caked on and I suggested she forgo most of it. It seems she couldn’t. She was a double of a famous movie star of the 1950’s and 1960’s. She simply did not need it and it did nothing for her.
However, I knew another woman who was very attractive when made up. I got the opportunity to see her once “sans make-up” and I didn’t recognize her although I had known her for a couple of years. I absolutely did not recognize her.
I didn’t name what I do or don’t do for your approval dudebro.
You can take your “watches her weight” shit and go fuck yourself. That isn’t how weight works, all chronic dieting does is hurt the physical and mental health of people who do it.
“Beauty” is some shit you saw in a magazine once and never took 3 seconds to actually think about.
Oh and also- saying “men shave too”? Shaving the majority of your body all the time is different than shaving your face (MAYBE, IF YOU SO CHOOSE).
Skeptifem wrote: “That isn’t how weight works, all chronic dieting does is hurt the physical and mental health of people who do it.”
I was once overweight so I do know how it “works.” When I was in High school, I was heavy. When I went to college, I finally admitted it to myself and lost 54 pounds. I changed my eating habits and have never put it back on. I have maintained a BMI of +/- 14 since. I have not done “chronic dieting.” I did it one time and changed my eating habits and that was the end of my dieting. I now regularly indulge in ice cream, soft drinks and such, just in moderation.
“You can take your “watches her weight” shit and go fuck yourself.”
From your comments and language, I suspect that you have a weight problem you haven’t addressed?
“That isn’t how weight works, all chronic dieting does is hurt the physical and mental health of people who do it.”
I know exactly how weight works. My health is excellent. I haven’t required healthcare interventions in more than 30 years. I am physically and mentally fit. The doctor tells me so.
“Beauty” is some shit you saw in a magazine once and never took 3 seconds to actually think about.”
No, I have eyes and excellent eye sight. I have a brain to evaluate beauty. I have the intelligence to think. I never relied on magazines to tell me what beauty was. You’re probably right about “3 seconds” but I can evaluate beauty far faster than that, maybe 3/10ths of a second.
Hunt wrote: “It’s society that has shaped the accepted roles of women and what counts and doesn’t count as “sexy.”
Yes, and “society” is both men and women. You can not blame society without blaming both sexes.
“And if not an exception, you are certainly not the rule in your regard for educated women”
Well, maybe. I think people are attracted to people who they respect at least in the long run and that goes for both sexes. Yes, there are exceptions where the idiot manual laborer marries the executive woman and the executive man who marries the office bimbo but those are relatively rare. Equal are attracted to equals. If a woman couldn’t keep up with me intellectually, I soon lost interest.
“There are a lot of men who will openly admit to not wanting to associate with women more accomplished than them. That is perceived as threatening or perhaps even unattractive,”
Yes, these are men who are trapped in their cultural roles. They have a need to feel superior.
“and yes, there are plenty of women who will agree that it is unnatural for a more accomplished, powerful woman to be with a less accomplished man.”
I’ll agree with this too. Mothers tell their daughters from a young age to “Get a good man.” A “good man” is one who has high earning potential such as a doctor or lawyer. However, women’s education and professional status is increasing much faster than men’s. What is a female doctor or lawyer to do if she wants to marry into a higher professional status? The “talent pool” is extremely thin there.
If she doesn’t also have the physical characteristics, it is unlikely she will find an acceptable mate.
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Men set these standards in the first place. Yes, women enforced it on each other.
Because it’s much easier to comply with the half of society that’s legally able and usually willing to beat the shit out of you than to risk said beating and possible death. And have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? Systematic abuse breeds complicity.
“Yes, and “society” is both men and women. You can not blame society without blaming both sexes.”
That was the point I thought I was making, except for the fact that “blame” isn’t really the right word. These are just the circumstances under which we live, and it’s up to use to change them.
“However, women’s education and professional status is increasing much faster than men’s. What is a female doctor or lawyer to do if she wants to marry into a higher professional status?”
Basically, I think it’s all bullshit. I work as a handyman, but I have a degree in applied math from UC Berkeley and worked in the computer industry. I couldn’t stand having my life’s energy sucked out of me through a computer screen 8 hours a day. People who think they have to live according to social strata haven’t ever actually had a conversation with the person fixing their toilet. That, my friend, you can take to the bank.
“Yes, and “society” is both men and women. You can not blame society without blaming both sexes”
But who had all of the power until very recently, and who still has most over the power?
David wrote: “But who had all of the power until very recently, and who still has most over the power?”
I know women who had vast power 40 – 50 years ago. It was not uncommon. My first job was at a bank that had several female Sr. VPs. My aunt was a Sr. VP at a multi-modal transport company, an industry generally regarded as a male industry. Women are well represented in the medical profession (High earnings) and especially as OB/GYNs, pediatricians and have been so for years. I particularly remember Lelia Denmark who didn’t retire until she was over 100 years old.
Hewlett Packard, the computer company has a female CEO and there are other examples.
Women have never, ever been encouraged to be prostitutes.
And for 50 years, we’ve been encouraging women in the West to be scientists and doctors and engineers. There’s some impressive progress.
The times in the West when women were assumed to be laundry and sex machines is long past. Not long past, but receding, anyway.
Gorbi,
the look of surprise on people’s faces when they find out that I’m a mathematician is an indication that you may be a little too optimistic on this.
Women are still very much expected to do the low-paying nice and friendly jobs. You know, “Something with, like, people?”. Such as doctor’s assistant, nurse, salesperson in a shop that doesn’t require too much specialist knowledge, hairdresser, secretary, childcare worker… maybe real estate agent if you’re ambitious.
At least there are some medical specialisations where women have become a common sight, but really, how many female urologists do you know? Female orthopaedic surgeons? Female traumatologists? Heart surgeons?
And let’s not even get started on computer science, engineering, physics, maths and chemistry… at least when it’s not about becoming a teacher.
But it’s not like girls have the same encouragement to go on to a scientific career (or hell, a career at all) like boys. There’s still a lot of subtle “you don’t really need to learn so much if you can find a good husband” hinting going on. My primary school teacher actually recommended that I shouldn’t go on to 13th grade but go straight to the school that finishes after 9th, so I could become a dentist’s assistant and then have a few years of work before starting a family. Mind you, this was Germany, not all that long ago, and I was the only straight-A student in my year at that school. Same happened to a good female friend.
(Maybe one reason that it’s getting a little better now is that these days, both incomes are really needed, and this may have given the former socialist countries their clear head start.)
Oh, and this is just my privileged western experience. It’s not like things are so nice everywhere!
There’s still long way to go, and there’s really no point pretending we’re already there.
“the look of surprise on people’s faces when they find out that I’m a mathematician is an indication that you may be a little too optimistic on this.”
I once dated a female math PH.d. She was a highschool math teacher. She chose that profession for herself. The surprising thing was that she was earning almost as much as I was and I was the CEO of a manufacturing company.
“Women are still very much expected to do the low-paying nice and friendly jobs.”
How do you explain Dr. Delores mentioned above? She chose it for herself. Where was the man pushing her down?
“You know, “Something with, like, people?”. Such as doctor’s assistant, nurse, salesperson in a shop that doesn’t require too much specialist knowledge, hairdresser, secretary, childcare worker… maybe real estate agent if you’re ambitious.”
Well, she was working “with people” but it was her choice
.
“At least there are some medical specialisations where women have become a common sight, but really, how many female urologists do you know? Female orthopaedic surgeons? Female traumatologists? Heart surgeons?”
I do know female OB/GYNs, pediatricians and cosmetic surgeons.
“And let’s not even get started on computer science, engineering, physics, maths and chemistry…”
I used to work in a construction related business and did know female engineers. The opportunities were there but no takers.
“at least when it’s not about becoming a teacher.”
It appears teaching is a career path many choose for themselves. With the right degree, it can be a high paying.
“But it’s not like girls have the same encouragement to go on to a scientific career (or hell, a career at all) like boys.”
Why did you qualify it with a “but?” I was not encouraged to take the career path I took. As a matter of fact, I would have been discouraged.
“There’s still a lot of subtle “you don’t really need to learn so much if you can find a good husband” hinting going on.”
I can understand this and I don’t know enough to quantify it. This seems to put the blame on the parents though.
“My primary school teacher actually recommended that I shouldn’t go on to 13th grade but go straight to the school that finishes after 9th, so I could become a dentist’s assistant and then have a few years of work before starting a family. Mind you, this was Germany, not all that long ago, and I was the only straight-A student in my year at that school. Same happened to a good female friend.”
This may be a part of the problem here. You are writing from a German perspective to an audience that is mostly American. From my experience working with German customers, the culture is very different. I don’t think I could work for a German supervisor.
“(Maybe one reason that it’s getting a little better now is that these days, both incomes are really needed, and this may have given the former socialist countries their clear head start.)”
Two incomes has been the standard in the US for years. It is not about survival but (expected) standard of living.
“Oh, and this is just my privileged western experience. It’s not like things are so nice everywhere! There’s still long way to go, and there’s really no point pretending we’re already there.”
With you being German puts things into perspective for me. I’ve only experienced the German culture from the perspective of doing business with German owned and operated companies in The US. The business culture is very, very different. I decided I could not do business with these companies because of these differences and didn’t. What you are writing doesn’t seem to apply here at all.
You may want to look into the average pay for teachers. It’s usually less what than CEOs of companies make. Around here (Australia) when I looked at job ads, the teaching jobs (for people with a PhD, incidentally) paid way less than what I earn as a simulation consultant in mining logistics.
Anyway, when it comes to choosing a career, the expectations one grew up with have a large influence.
Compare it to nail technicians or beauticians: Yes, there are male ones, and I don’t know of women actively pushing men out of the profession, but still, most men don’t consider it a potential career path for themselves.
That’s the point. I might add ophthalmic surgeons. But why are women missing from those “masculine” specialisations I mentioned above? There are enough male OB/GYNs, so it can’t be “no looking at bits of the opposite sex”.
It’s all about the perception of a given job as “suitable for women”, and this seems to hinge on requiring supposedly “male” qualities such as strength, decisiveness or technical ability.
About the specific career path, maybe, but wasn’t it always clear that you’d need a proper job, besides “dad” and “prince”?
The 4-year-old boys at my kid’s kindy seem to get it: Their “what I’ll be” pictures were along the lines of “policeman”, “fireman”, “footy player”, “builder” and “vet”. The girls all went for “princess” and as the tools of their trade they drew mirrors and lipsticks. What kind of messages have these kids absorbed about what grown-ups’ roles?
Don’t you think that this atmosphere doesn’t influence one’s career path?
I really don’t know what exact differences you mean here. I’m originally Hungarian, lived in Germany, now I’m in Australia, and the cultures don’t seem all that different to me in terms of gender roles. If anything, then Germany is somewhat progressive in the old-style feminist sense of women refusing to optimise their appearance for male appreciation, but pretty backwards when it comes to women’s jobs.
Anyway, can you explain this point in more detail?
Yasanne wrote: ” You may want to look into the average pay for teachers. It’s usually less what than CEOs of companies make. Around here (Australia) when I looked at job ads, the teaching jobs (for people with a PhD, incidentally)”
I know she was the exception. Her degree was in Math and there is a shortage of Math ph.ds. It was the law of supply and demand. She made about $7,000.00 per year less than me. That’s not much considering the positions and responsibilities.
“But why are women missing from those “masculine” specialisations I mentioned above?”
They are free to choose any specialty they want. I can only surmise it’s choice.
“The 4-year-old boys at my kid’s kindy seem to get it: Their “what I’ll be” pictures were along the lines of “policeman”, “fireman”, “footy player”, “builder” and “vet”. The girls all went for “princess” and as the tools of their trade they drew mirrors and lipsticks. What kind of messages have these kids absorbed about what grown-ups’ roles? Don’t you think that this atmosphere doesn’t influence one’s career path?”
From my limited experience, it comes well before 4 years old. That leads me to conclude it is innate and instinctive.
“I really don’t know what exact differences you mean here.”
In the German owned and operated companies I observed, the managers/supervisors were condescending, demanding and generally verbally abusive to their employees. I have never seen this in American owned and operated companies. It was quite a shock to me. I couldn’t imagine treating my employees like that. I would imagine they would all soon be gone and working at another company.
Hi, I must make a two coments here :
1) As scientist,female and who take care of myself everyday, I cannot imagine why a woman has to be ugly, bad smelling and looking out of sanatorium for being classified as intelligent.
2) Male dominated work place does generated a bad behaviour towards woman and towards how they appear. German companies does have this male dominated world which shouting and being abusive on employees, mainly female employees is something commom and acceptable. Unless, you are blond, tall and looks Gisele bunchen.
I hope this discussion will open more the mind of some scientists that woman can have the freedom to be what they want and being successfull.
How can you say that with a straight face?
Oh, we’re sooooo used to that.
NEVER encouraged to prostitute? do you know what a pimp is?
There is one part of this cycle that I never quite understood. I mean, sure, you belittle women. But eventually you might have children, and some of them will have the female sex.
And then what?
Love at this point generally comes without conditions, right? Therefore you raise them as individuals, not as something else. And encourage.
But perhaps I have already been corrupted beyond repair, equality was a reasonable part of my upbringing, and the rest just went automatically.
I mean, you want the best for your children, right? Not to mention we all realize we’re not perfect and probably have some bigoted ideas, and when we’re called out on it, it’s time to admit and move on.
I can only hope I will not pass on any remains of inequal ideas I surely still possess. I’ll do my fucking best at least…
Great post, Taslima! Thank you for this. Science is neither a girl thing nor a boy thing, its a Human thing. Its the best tool humans have developed to understand our world since the dawn of intellectual reasoning.
I seriously hope I’m not trolling, but I’d like to leave a link to a post on my new blog. I’ve been following FTB for sometime now and its the posts here that motivated me to start writing down my own thoughts too. You guys do amazing work bringing us all into the light of awareness!
It’s a post on misogyny and the various shapes it takes – A few daily life observations:
skepfem.blogspot.com/2012/06/misogynist-minds.html?m=0
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Science major girls are my favorite, but as valuable as the ability to carry a deep conversation is to me, it’s a secondary quality behind her beauty.
You can call it superficial, sexist or whatever you want to, but the fact is relationships are based on attraction first, and no amount of innovation or protest is ever going to change that.
This is going to be a long, disconnected post.
1. SCIENCE, IT’S FOR GIRLS
This video made me feel embarrassed that I chose to study science and medicine. As a girl, it was reading books like “Double Helix” (though I was an angry teenager upon finding out that Rosalind Franklin was not given the credit she deserved) and “Hot Zone” (which slightly made up for that as the main scientist/narrator was female), and watching documentaries similar to Planet Earth and Cosmos that inspired me. A video such as this would have done nothing for me, because it was the actual science itself, and not the notion that I could be hot and sexy in a white lab coat, that moved me.
2. SOCIAL PROGRAMMING
I was raised in the US, but in a traditional Pakistani home. I fought to be permitted to go to UC Berkeley and not the local community college. My mother told me, more than once, that my only value as a female was to be attractive. My father was better than her, and supported me, but (and for this I forgive him), only as much as his upbringing and social conditioning allowed. He encouraged me to become a nurse or PA, as I would obviously get married and have kids and never go back to work anyway.
3. WOMEN IN SCIENCE
I now 9 months away from earning my MD. I will be going into internal medicine. I might go on to gastroenterology or cardiology, or mix it up and give ER a try. I fully intend on practicing full time, save maternity leave, and well past the average age of retirement.
4. SEXISM IN SCIENCE
Even now, as a student rotating through the hospital, I see the blatant gender disparities. In the OR, the female locker room is buried within, not allowing women to go in with street clothes, making the whole point of a locker room useless. The male locker room, however, is accessible from outside, complete with adjoining lounge containing a flat screen TV and coffee machine, and a third adjoining room containing computers and desks, because, of course, only male surgeons need to study or look up patient charts. And if I hear one more resident recommend I go into OB/Gyn, dermatology, or pediatrics, I will surely lose it.
5. MARRYING UP/DOWN THE SOCIAL LADDER
I am engaged to white atheist man. We met in college, and after graduation, I was a tutor making next to nothing despite having degrees in molecular biology and religious studies, while he was making a six-figure salary. Then I got into medical school several states away, and he began considering going back to school, or opening a bar, or anything that wasn’t his current job (which he called a “corporate cesspool”) and would allow him to move closer to me. I didn’t care what he did as long as he was doing something he liked. A year later, he started law school, knowing that, in the end, I would probably be making more money than him, and he would be making less than he was at his current job, and never, through any of these shifts in earning-power, was this an issue to either of us. As a female professional, I do not care that my partner be more successful than me, only that he is intelligent and doing something fulfilling with his life. My parents obviously feel otherwise. Ignoring for a moment the race and creed of my partner, their other issue with him is that I am on a higher status level than him. They would rather I use my MD to marry another MD and then stay at home and raise his kids. Not happening.