Francis has left the US after what has to be considered highly successful visits to Cuba and the US, success being measured by the tremendous size of the crowds and the very favorable press that he received. There were no major controversies but also no surprises. My impression of the visit is that while Francis still holds on to all the nasty dogma of the Catholic church such as its opposition to same-sex marriage, abortion, contraception, and homosexuality, he would rather not talk about those things and prefers to focus on issues like climate change and wealth and income inequality and poverty, all issues that transcend religious dogma. I think that we secularists should treat him as an influential ally on the issues on which we agree with him while continuing to fight against him on those we don’t.
There is one area of dogma where he seems to be loosening the strings. Back in 2013, soon after his election, Francis said that even people who do not believe in the Christian god, as long as they obey their consciences, will be forgiven and can go to heaven.
Although it got some play in the mainstream media, it was not as much as I thought it should since it strikes me as somewhat radical. After all, the idea that salvation is only possible through acceptance of Jesus and being forgiven by him is a pretty widespread belief in the Christian church. In efforts to be more ecumenical, some denominations have conceded that other paths to heaven via other religions are possible. But the idea that belief in a god is unnecessary would not be acceptable to traditionalist Christians and I am surprised that they have not reacted more strongly.
Within Catholic circles there was some pushback to Francis’s words, with a Vatican spokesperson trying to ‘clarify’ Francis’s remarks while actually obfuscating them, and other commentators suggesting that he did not actually say what the media are reporting.
While several prominent atheist groups welcomed the pope’s remarks, the issue for us atheists is moot. Not believing in a god goes together with not believing in the existence of heaven either so this effort at reassurance is kind of meaningless.
The only ones for whom it might bring some relief are those atheists who are not quite sure of their disbelief and maybe worry about ending up in hell, and the religious friends and relatives of atheists who worry that their loved ones will not be able to join them in heaven. For example, Charles Darwin’s wife Emma, who constantly fretted over his immortal soul because of his unbelief, would have welcomed the pope’s words though since she was a nonconformist Unitarian and not a Catholic, his words might not have had too much authority with her.
My impression is that it was not a radical statement at all. The idea that atheists can go to heaven is not a new one in Catholicism. It is my understanding that the common belief is that atheist souls go to purgatory, where they are given a chance to accept Jesus as their savior, which remains a necessary condition for entry into heaven.
So yeah, atheists can go to heaven, but by the time the atheist’s soul gets there, it isn’t really atheist any more. But then, presumably by then it would have empirical evidence of God’s existence, so at least by Catholic theology it wouldn’t make sense to be an atheist.
Mano Singham: After all, the idea that salvation is only possible through acceptance of Jesus and being forgiven by him is a pretty widespread belief in the Christian church.
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that most Christian denominations and most people who identify as Christian believe the “many paths to heaven” approach. Outside of fundamentalists, most of the Christians I know seem to believe that “good people” will go to heaven.
I would not be particularly surprised if Catholicism is one of those.
That is not at all what he said. It might seem like an implication, but he would have to be contradicting centuries of Catholic tradition for the implication to be correct, and I don’t see that happening.
And they are correct.
What Francis was doing was being tactful and rhetorically compassionate. But Catholic dogma is pretty clear, and “redemption” and “salvation” are distinct terms of art in Roman Catholic theology, and Francis did not say or imply that atheists will be necessarily granted the latter.
My initial reaction to this would have been “Hell yes!” because then I’d have irrefutable proof of life after death. Then I remembered that I’d have to see what heaven and hell are like, because if hell is just “separation from God” as some people insist, I’d take that over an eternity fawning over a monster.
I don’t care if Francis’ remark on atheists and heaven was radical or not. I simply don’t see why I should care.
So? That happens all the time. Accidentally and on purpose. It is not as if some god is whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
No, it really is not. The statement could positively affect how atheists are treated, in this life, by Catholics. That is very important.
I did not follow single news about the pope, I have no interest either. Now, here we go, you as well trying to shove this pope non-sense here. Did this guy say something that no other common decent secular people didn’t think of it before ?
I wasn’t christian before, I have no interest in christianity, as well as any of these mono theistic abrahamic religions, these are the organized religions always resists progress with systemic fashion.
No more pope pepe story please.
atheistblog @#8:
I’m so sorry some mean person clicked your computer to this particular page and physically forced you to stare at Mano’s entry.
@atheistblog, I’m an irredeemable atheist, through and through. But let’s be fair, catholics aren’t the enemy, not the pope, not christians, nor any religious, not unless all humans are the enemy. We atheists are still very much in the minority. People can be misguided in a million different fashions; welcome to the human condition. I understand wanting to push back, but personally, if the pope says anything I agree with it’s no skin off my nose to laud him for it rather than trashing it only because of who he is.
Why should you care what the pope says? Because millions of people dote on his every word. I’m going to take careful note of everything he says too, but because of them, not because of him.
#8
Bloggers are going to blog about thngs that interest them.
Holms @#11,
I am always amused by people who tell me what I should and should not write about!