Old man babbles about the Bible as science


Dr Marc Siegel (he really is a doctor, a medical doctor) writes an article for Fox News that makes me question his competence. He is the Fox News Senior Medical Analyst, so keep that in mind when assessing future medical info from Fox News.

When our son was 4 years old, he asked my wife and me: “Can you drive to heaven?” Out of the mouth of babes, right?

It’s a question only a child would ask, but it raises a very adult question: Where exactly is the heaven described in the Bible?

As a scientist,

Stop right there. I dislike that phrase — it’s usually a prelude to an argument for authority. We don’t need to see an MD or a PhD to address an argument by a four year old, so why bring it up?

Probably because he’s conscious that he’s about to make an incredibly stupid argument. It’s actually the second worse As a scientist argument I’ve ever heard.* But this one is pretty bad.

Also, as an adult, I will say that “where is heaven” is not a particularly adult question.

I understand the importance of definitions. According to the Bible, the lowest level of heaven is Earth’s atmosphere. The mid-level heaven is outer space. The highest-level heaven is what we’re talking about: It’s where God dwells.

Yikes. The Bible is not a scientific source; he may have some ideas about definitions, but he knows nothing about the importance of sources. But OK, according to the Bible, where does the Bible talk about the atmosphere? Where does it even mention outer space? The ancient authors of the books that would be incorporated into the Bible thought we lived in a bubble of air encapsulated in a solid firmament, embedded in a universe that was full of water. It’s a bad idea to reference the Bible when trying to describe the cosmic geography.

The best you can get from the Bible is a vague notion that God is above us.

As for heaven’s location, the Bible contains many verses that describe us as looking “up” at God in heaven, and God as looking “down” at us on Earth.

Stop there. That’s good enough for a child; God is somewhere in the sky, so no you can’t drive there. Done. Unless you want to get into a serious discussion about whether Heaven even exists as a physical space, or whether a god even exists. That would be a bit challenging for most 4-year-olds.

It’s way above what your average Fox News reader can comprehend.

But no! Siegel starts talking about pop physics.

Imagine boarding a nuclear-powered rocket and traveling straight “up” into deep space. Will you ever reach a point far enough “up” into space that you finally reach heaven?

Before you laugh off the idea, consider this.

In 1929, American attorney-turned-amateur astronomer Edwin Hubble discovered that galaxies are rushing away from one another like so much shrapnel from a bomb. Hubble also discovered there’s a definite pattern to how galaxies are rushing away from each other, namely: The farther “up” in space a galaxy is located — the farther away it is from Earth — the faster it’s moving away from Earth and everything else. It’s called Hubble’s Law.

What does this have to do with the existence of, the nature of, or the location of heaven?

But, here’s where it gets really interesting.

Spoiler: no, it doesn’t.

Theoretically, a galaxy that’s 273 billion trillion (273,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) miles away from Earth would move at 186,000 miles per second, which is the speed of light. That distance, way “up” there in space, is called the Cosmic Horizon.

That means you and I can never reach the Cosmic Horizon — not even aboard the most souped-up, nuclear-powered rocket imaginable — because, as Einstein explained in his theory of special relativity, only light and certain other non-material phenomena can travel at the speed of light.

The cosmic horizon is the maximum distance from which light from particles could have traveled to the observer in the age of the universe, which I think (not being a physicist myself) is about 16 billion light years away. Galaxies at the horizon are not moving at the speed of light. We cannot reach it because it is constantly receding, but…

Hey, what does this have to do with the location of heaven? Does the Bible also incorporate general relativity?

So, then, where is heaven located, exactly? It’s entirely possible heaven is located on the other side of the Cosmic Horizon. Here’s why.

Oh god. He’s not going to shut up.

One: According to modern cosmology, an entire universe exists beyond the Cosmic Horizon. But it’s permanently hidden from us because we can never reach, let alone cross over, the Cosmic Horizon.

Two: Our best astronomical observations — and Einstein’s theories of special and general relativity — indicate that time stops at the Cosmic Horizon. At that special distance, way “up” there in deep, deep, deep space, there is no past, present or future. There’s only timelessness.

Three: Unlike time, however, space does exist at and beyond the Cosmic Horizon. Which means the hidden universe beyond the Cosmic Horizon is habitable, albeit only by light and light-like entities.

Four: According to modern cosmology, the Cosmic Horizon is lined with the very oldest celestial objects in the observable universe. That means whatever exists beyond the Cosmic Horizon predates these oldest objects… predates the so-called big bang… predates the beginning of the observable universe.

One: none of that is in the Bible; two: physics would tell us that we don’t know what’s going on beyond the cosmic horizon, or that our time and space dependent notions of “what’s going on” even apply; three: but Siegel thinks physics claims that there is a habitable universe beyond it; four: what amazing bullshit.

I pity that small child getting this lecture.

Finally, Siegel sums it all up, and brings the Bible back into the discussion.

1. Heaven is, indeed, located “up” there — way above our heads and way beyond the visible, starlit universe — just as the Bible indicates.

2. Heaven is inaccessible to us mortals while we’re alive, just as the Bible indicates.

3. Heaven is inhabited by nonmaterial, timeless beings, just as the Bible indicates.

4. Heaven is the dwelling place of the One who predates the universe — the One who created the universe — just as the Bible indicates.

The Bible doesn’t say any of that.

Is this the sophisticated theology believers are always telling me about?

* The worst As a scientist claim I’ve ever heard was from Lawrence Krauss defending Jeffrey Epstein, As a scientist I always judge things on empirical evidence and he always has women ages 19 to 23 around him, but I’ve never seen anything else, so as a scientist, my presumption is that whatever the problems were I would believe him over other people. That remains the champion among bad As a scientist claims, now and possibly forever, and it even includes two As a scientist phrases in one sentence.

Comments

  1. says

    Just more shovels full of irrational xtian superstitious CRAP. They couldn’t reason their way out of an open paper bag if their life depended on it.
    I try to stay away from these blithering, murderous aholes. But, Martha and the Vandellas haunts me: ‘nowhere to run to baby, nowhere to hide’.

  2. says

    When he searches for the ‘windows for winds’ maybe he will fall off the edge and be eaten by one of the turtles the earth is supported by.

  3. drmarcushill says

    The only times I ever use “as a mathematician” are as a joke – “We have four options” (lists them), “As a mathematician, I can tell you those were actually five options”.

  4. raven says

    Two: Our best astronomical observations — and Einstein’s theories of special and general relativity — indicate that time stops at the Cosmic Horizon.

    This doesn’t seem right to me.

    .1. Time might stop from our viewpoint at the Cosmic Horizon, when everything is receding at the speed of light.
    But if you are at the Cosmic Horizon, time would seem to be perfectly normal.

    .2. If you are at the Cosmic Horizon, looking at us, time would be normal for you. You would think where we on earth are, is where time has stopped.

    IIRC, in General Relativity, there are no preferred reference frames.

  5. robro says

    When my son was 4 or so he asked me about god. I gave him my perspective on it, something like “people believe this idea but there’s really no evidence of it.” In any case, as far as I know he’s a contented non-believer.

    My idiot’s understanding is that the “cosmic horizon” is an artifact of the expansion of space-time. The galaxies at the cosmic horizon or beyond are not moving at or greater than the speed of light, of course, but moving away from us at that speed because space-time is changing. Space-time is not constrained by the speed of light.

    Since up and down are relative, perhaps heaven is “down”…any apologists ever speak to that.

    I’ve recently seen a couple of videos of Richard Feynman…and these may be AI generated…talking about quantum physics and that we should get used to the idea that we are all made of the same stuff as the “empty” space around us: waves of quantum probabilities. If that’s the case, “where is heaven” is really nonsensical question. The “other side” of the wave function?

  6. raven says

    Heaven is inhabited by nonmaterial, timeless beings, just as the Bible indicates….

    As PZ notes, the bible doesn’t say this.

    Guy is just repeating mindless xian god babble.

    .1. The gods and angels of the bible are very much material beings. The devil Satan walks around and talks to people. The angels do the same thing.
    “They bring important news (like Gabriel to Mary), deliver people from danger (like Daniel in the lions’ den), provide strength, and engage in spiritual battles. ”
    Angels walk around, talk to people, pick things up, go on dates with humans and have sex with them to breed the Nephilim. Everything people can do and a lot more.

    Same things with the xian gods. They can do everything people do and a lot more.

    .2. Timeless beings is a meaningless phrase.

    The heavenly beings are subject to time the same as we are.
    Even the jesus guy gets born, grows up, dies, and then starts a new career as an invisible spirit who does nothing.

  7. birgerjohansson says

    He failed to address the Norse creation story! He is a charlatan, may Odin punish him.

  8. larpar says

    “Einstein explained in his theory of special relativity, only light and certain other non-material phenomena can travel at the speed of light.”
    Funny, I don’t recall Einstein saying anything about “non-material phenomena”.

  9. birgerjohansson says

    If Zod lives in a place that predates the universe, it must be a parallel pocket universe.

    This reminds me of Christians who think the entities who abduct people are demons masquerading as aliens. And instead of travelling through space they travel through other dimensions, presumably by using a zipper in the space-time fabric. (God Awful Movies had a hilarious episode about it)

  10. Snarki, child of Loki says

    Einstein (apocryphally) said: “There are two things that I know are infinite: The Universe, and human dumbf. And I’m not sure about The Universe.”

    This christianist moron is just another data point for that hypothesis.

  11. bmatchick says

    Hate to nit-pick since what Siegel talks about is stupid from top to bottom, but he can’t even get Relativity right. We can see galaxies moving away from us faster than light- there is no speed limit because space has no restriction on how fast it can expand. C may be the limit for receiving information moving through spacetime, but it’s not a limit when space is accelerating and taking galaxies with it. So seeing a galaxy moving away at the speed of light is unremarkable.

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