A smart move: Biden has left the race, endorsing Kamala Harris.
I might even be interested in watching the Harris-Trump debate, although I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump now chickens out. If his ego lets him.
Meanwhile, I’m in travel limbo for a while. Just a little while, in case the trolls get ideas.
Well, Democratic donors and politicians, now what? You wanted Biden out, so what’s your plan to beat Trump without him?
I, for one, welcome our new Kamalaian overlady.
Harris/Buttigieg 2024!
Though i understand the decision of your president, PZ (Biden is in poor health and must be very tired), im afraid that the actions of the Democratic Party since the debate Biden/Trump, has been quite stupid.
Why the democrats think always speaking about the need of Biden step out, treating the american president like some kind of invalid, was a good idea?
Why the democrats don’t refused to speak about that, and didn’t talked about the huge amount of lies spewed by Trump, the condemnation in the NY court and the continuous hate speech of Trump?
Xpost from Mano Singham
I’m surprised but not surprised.
This decision of Biden’s makes me respect him a lot more rather than less.
It’s not easy to have all the fame and power of the US presidency and then voluntarily give it up, even for a compelling reason.
It’s never been too clear to me just how cognitively impaired Biden is. People close to him are all over the place with their claims.
I blame the flibbertigibbet media. I for one will cheerfully join team Kamala 🥥, and I think this is also an opportunity to refocus the campaign on beating Trump rather than all the whining about Joe too old.
What I don’t understand is how the Democratic party let things get to this stage.
They had 4 years to figure out that Joe Biden is 81 and his mind is apparently slowing down.
With 4 years head start, the Democrats could have rounded up a field of possible successors, tested them out, and chosen the most electable one.
This sort of planning isn’t hard, it is something most people could do.
Now they are scrambling in damage control mode, a whole 4 months before the next election.
I wanted a replacement, but I’m worried about the long delay it took. At least my mother’s feeling relieved: I don’t know her calculus, but she’s more optimistic about a democratic win, now. Hope Harris can fire up people the way Biden struggled with.
@4 & 7: exactly, it’s as if a giant piece of Dem brain is missing.
What-the-heck are they waiting for? After all it’s not as if El Trumpo’s attack surface is particularly small, is it.
Just saturate the airwaves (and cables) with his judicial disasters, his proven decade-long grifting, his sexual abuse, his veryveryvery obvious mental decline (Biden is a frickin’ Mensa member in comparison), his sheer incompetence and his continuing treason of every principle any democracy stands for.
Yet nothing moves. I don’t get it.
PZ Myers @ # 6: I blame the flibbertigibbet media.
With particular emphasis on the NY Times. ~192 “Biden is old!!1!” pieces in a week – largely driven by a publisher’s pique at not getting granted an exclusive interview, or so it seems from outside.
I’d offer to make a bet on when the spate of “Harris is too young!!1!” articles begins, except that it probably already has.
@outis #9: Because any change means that the ones on top will loose power. The republican party didn’t choose Trump, he was forced on them by the voters. And it meant that a lot of people on top lost any hope of becoming the next president.
The republican elite will rather loose the election than loose control of the party, because there will always be another election. Just look at Biden, they had to drag him out kicking and screaming.
I sort of understand it.
Trump, Vance, and his cult followers are so scary and malevolent that I would vote for anything the Democrats ran. It could be a cardboard cutout of Joe Biden. It could be the reanimated Zombie body of Joe Biden.
It even makes sense.
Who would be running the USA if Biden turns into a Zombie would be his caretakers and employees. Which is usually who runs the country anyway.
It’s the same for the MAGA cult. Except it is the opposite.
They would vote for a cardboard cutout of Donald Trump.
If Trump goes Zombie, which he apparently is doing, they don’t care.
They could carry him into the White House on a stretcher and prop him up in a chair.
Then his handlers would run the USA.
This isn’t unusual. We’ve been there before.
Ronald Reagan clearly had the beginning stages of Alzheimers during his second term. It didn’t make any difference.
For that matter, how often was Trump actually cognitively aware enough to run the USA during his term of office? This is the guy who spent all the time of the Covid-19 virus pandemic claiming it was going to end any day now.
This is good for the democrats – it removes the biggest liability (Biden) and allows an energetic new candidate surrounded by a lot of new hype to come in with a buzz around them. It means the focus will now shift from Biden’s age to Trump’s instability, and age.
I suspect Kamala is not the best choice because of her ties to Biden (not to mention rampant sexism and racism in the US) but whether she becomes the nominee or someone else, it will definitely give the Dems a much better chance.
Your next paragraph exposes this fallacy. “Generic Democrat” polls quite well against Trump. But when you fill in an actual name – any actual name – you realize they all have their own weaknesses.
This might make things worse. I’ve heard that whenever a presidential nominee gets replaced at this late point in the race, they lose. And even though I think that a Harris/Buttigieg ticket would win on the combined qualifications, having a woman and a gay man on the ticket could unfairly cost them too many votes. On the upside, a minority woman who was a former state DA debating the abortion banning racist rapist Trump might be entertaining, assuming that Trump doesn’t chicken out.
And besides Trump’s constant lies during the debate, how come the media never really pointed out the stupid statements of Trump either? “I have the biggest heart on the stage.” “We had the H2O best numbers ever, and we were using all forms of energy during my four years. Best environmental numbers ever, they gave me the statistic before I walked on stage actually.” “We bought the certain dog that’s the most incredible thing that you’ve ever seen, the way they can spot it.” “On January 6th, we had a great border.” Did anyone see any American big news media sources report on any of these? Just wondering.
Now how long before the same people from 2016 start saying Bernie or nothing?
My partner reminded me a little while ago that apparently Biden vowed to be a one term president when he ran. So be it.
Harris is the obvious alternative, but the other possible candidate is Gavin Newsom. However, I suspect he’ll just campaign for her. He can’t run with her…well, he could but there’s some kind of unwritten rule not to run two politicians from the same state. They probably wouldn’t run Gretchen Whitmer with Harris for a similar reason, except because of gender. We like Buttigieg a lot, but unfortunately the bigots would tear into him in a major way…or at least try to. He seems capable of handling the heat but I would understand he would not want to go through that ordeal.
Is it far off to say the Dems probably think they need a straight white man with experience in politics from some state other than California?
It’s going to be Harris. As I said on the Infinite Thread, it seems to me like Sen. Mark Kelly from AZ might be a good choice of running mate, but there are several others to choose from.
Part of me wonders if we’re going to see Michelle Obama enter this race. She has repeatedly claimed to have no interest in being a politician, but it is possible that, in envisioning the kind of damage Trump would do if he won, she could be convinced to run anyway. And she would easily beat him, she’s by far the most popular of the potential candidates to replace Biden. Moreover, she has firsthand experience with the realities of being president – she knows what worked and what didn’t. I don’t think we’d see a “they go low, we go high” philosophy from her if she was elected, not a chance. She also lacks any political baggage – sure, this is because she lacks political experience, but she’s orders of magnitude more intelligent and competent than Trump, who himself had zero experience when he ran for president (the first two times).
To this end, I think a lot about how timing is everything in politics. Back in 2016, when Trump was ascendant, Biden was an outgoing vice president with much greater cognitive capabilities than he had in 2020 (and certainly greater than present-day), he was reasonably popular, and by all accounts, he could have beat Trump without breaking a sweat. But he demurred, supporting Clinton, and Clinton did Clinton things, and we got Trump. BUT, if Trump had lost in 2016 to Biden, he would not have had the opportunity to remake the GOP in his own image. And while I think that makeover is an overstated thing – they were already pretty close together, he just said the quiet parts out loud – the biggest part of the new GOP is the cult of personality that Trump has created, and I truly think that would’ve fizzled if he’d lost (potentially signalling to people like DeSantis, Boebert, and the rest of the clones, that the Trumpian approach to political power was a losing strategy).
So my worry is that right now, there’s a similar opportunity to deny Trump power by running an insanely popular former First Lady, that she demurs and remains out of the race, we get 4 more years of Trump, and the havoc that is wreaked in that time cannot possibly be undone by whomever comes next…possibly that same former First Lady, who finally figures out that in politics, who you are (or think you are) doesn’t matter…it’s who people BELIEVE you are that makes all the difference, and people believe in her ability to lead. It was said best by Lisa in Team America: World Police (lol, never thought I’d quote this movie when making a serious argument), when she responds to Gary (the famous Broadway actor) asking why it’s his responsibility to do something to stop the terrorists – “[she’s] the one with the power to do something.” Trump IS a terrorist who has shown that he has no regard for democracy or the institutions that it depends upon. His ideology is his own narcissism, likely created as a coping mechanism to stave off his fear of his own inadequacy, and the knowledge that he’s a weak coward who was handed everything he ever got in life. He will sacrifice anything to preserve the façade that is his self-image, including a nation of 300+ million people. He CANNOT be allowed to do so.
Simply crowning Harris as the party’s nominee would be a mistake. She is disliked and may be the one Democrat less likely to win than Biden.
But more importantly, this is a tremendous opportunity. All we have to do is convince 1,967 of the 3,933 pledged delegates (superdelegates can’t vote first ballot) to vote to more accurately represent the party instead of big money donors, lobbyists and entrenched powerbrokers. It’s not up to Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer.
So I like the idea of having a mini-primary of townhalls and debates where various candidates try to convince the delegates. If that is Harris, so be it. If nothing else, grab the popcorn cause we live in interesting times.
LOL.
Here are some of the people I’ve seen mentioned as a possible running mate for Harris:
AZ Sen. Mark Kelly
NC Gov. Roy Cooper
KY Gov. Andy Beshear
Transportation Sec. Pete Buttegieg
PA Gov. Josh Shapiro
IL Gov. J.B. Pritzger
NJ Sen. Cory Booker
MD Rep. Jamie Raskin
From what I’ve read, Newsom and Whitmer seem very unlikely and aren’t interested.
Correction: Pritzker.
The nominee can only be Harris. Anyone else is just a name picked out of a hat, which is considerably more insane than letting Biden continue.
I posted a link on the infinite thread about a poll in two swing states that gave Harris an advantage compared to Biden. So it is not all doom and gloom.
And JD Vance is an anti-abortion fundamentalist. Harris will have no problem holding him up as evidence of how unhinged the Republicans have become.
But the best advantage for the Dems is Trump himself, making unhinged rants. The more rallies he holds, the more chances he gets to trip himself up.
Here is the link with positive news for Harris.
.https://youtube.com/watch?v=CPI9fLLmK9I
Congratulations, GOP, now running the oldest presidential candidate ever: Dementia Don
Replacing an 81 year old with an 82 year old? Something tells me that all but the most delusional Bernie fans will realize this is an impossible ask.
You can stop wondering. That’s even less likely than Bernie Sanders throwing his hat in the ring.
Good.
I’d be happier with a resignation and a conviction at the Hague, but at least Genocide Joe is out of office 183 days from now.
Democrats have a chance to select someone worth voting for and pick a principled antiwar candidate who will end all of our overseas conflicts and close all U.S. military bases on foreign soil. But who am I kidding? Oligarchs control your party, voters have no meaningful say (it’s been demonstrated on multiple occasions but most glaringly this time), and their choice will be an interchangable cog in the military-industrial complex.
The party deserves to implode in spectacular fashion and be reduced to irrelevance in any future elections.
There’s a very good chance that Harris’s nomination would bring out the worst in Trump and his rabid base. That won’t play well with many of the voters Harris must reach to beat him.
If the Democrats do not finalize their choice until the convention, does this re-open the question of whether their candidate will appear on the ballot on all states, including Alabama and Ohio?
SC @ 23
I do actually like a lot of the people on this list (especially Buttegieg) but the best choice is actually Roy Cooper. Unlike the others (especially Kelly) he’s about to leave office anyway, since he’s term-limited out as NC governor. Most of the others we’d really like to keep in their current offices rather than risk special elections to replace them. He doesn’t have the potential problems that some of the others do for sections of the electorate (female, gay, black), not that any of these should matter, but we all know they will in a close election. Then there’s the fact that Cooper is a southern white guy from a critical swing state to balance Harris’ California woman of color, while also being a solid Democrat with a good and long record in office (governor, AG, state senator, and state rep) but still not too old that we have that problem again. Add to all that his abilities as a communicator who has successfully appealed to independents and swing voters (which is how he got elected the same year Trump won the presidential vote in NC) and you couldn’t ask for a better running mate for Harris.
@robro #18:
He never did. What he said, was that he would be a “transitional” candidate, and a bridge to the next generation. This was widely misinterpreted as him declaring for a single term… but AFAICT, he never said anything remotely like that.
Biden has been — contrary to my expectations going in — the best President of my lifetime. Now, my lifetime starts with Nixon, so that’s a really low bar. But still. I resent this. And I have no expectation that this will improve the Democratic position in the race. Then again, I never bought into the narrative that Biden was losing — based on polls that had him within the margin of error.
Not really stoked for this news as I believe the old adage not to change horses midstream. Plus it seems like the impetus came from monied interests (“top donors”) and CNN’s incessant agenda. But it makes me feel better if you say it’s a smart move.
@SC #23:
Jamie Raskin already turned down an open Senate seat this cycle that was his for the asking, saying he wanted to stay in the House.
It’s worth pointing out: Biden’s advisers dreaded this outcome more than anybody else. Their fortunes were tied to Biden’s. They are going to be out of a job next year. They are the true victims of this — their political malpractice has been revealed for all to see and they’re reduced to laughingstocks. Watch the party officials shuffle around and listen for their propaganda organs to change to all-new time-tested sources of wisdom with all-new talking points as a consequence.
beholder, your opinions are ever disjointed.
It’s also worth pointing out that’s merely your personal belief, without any actual basis outside your jaundiced worldview.
(You know, perhaps Biden’s advisers actually advised him to do this)
The Republican party is very deserving indeed. :)
There is a lengthy tradition of people ‘not being interested’ until they are.
Nemo @ #34 — Thanks for the clarification.
marner @ 21 — I don’t claim this is true, but I saw a news article just a few days ago saying that Harris is a very popular alternative to Biden. Take that for what it’s worth, but Harris is probably the de facto alternative to Joe.
beholder apparently thinks his fantasy about the Democratic Party self destructing outweighs Donald Trump being re-elected and putting everyone at risk.
One good thing about the timing of this is that Trump no longer has the chance of picking a non-white running mate. He probably wouldn’t have, but it’s still better that he can’t.
Yesterday’s news
Trump now bleeding support in GOP-dominated state as more women voters gravitate to Biden
(Florida)
Fun fact. Donald Trump is now the oldest nominee for president in American history.
http://youtube.com/post/UgkxCLYuOcyXtluSV6oNT0Nxi1MGZwHP_SDh
(Bwahahahaha)
@tacitus 31
And the depths of bigotry they will feel entitled to can also hurt Trump. We like to pretend bigotry isn’t a very big deal as a nation, hence something a broad a “woke”, the very attention to racist patterns becoming an insult.
She can help focus the attention there.
For example all of those people perfectly happy to assert she got it due to sex or color only. People who probably want you to defend Harris, when I want to practice pointing out they just want me to defend something. Gossips with racist assumptions they don’t feel they should have to do more than excrete onto the screen. Lots of things to practice.
I think you’re fucked now America.
Oh, my sweet summer child. He staged an insurrection to stay in power. He’ll do it again and if he hasn’t lost his marbles by that point then Vance, Empty G and a million other Trumpkins will do it for him.
I think the thing that really pisses me off about this is no one in the media is calling out Trump. He’s a convicted criminal, and adjudicated rapist. He warbles on about random topics topis like batteries killing sharks so often that you’d think his speeches were written by Grandpa Simpson. Despite all of that there’s nary a peep from the media. Everyone just shrugs their shoulders.
I’m all in with Kamala. Hopefully she becomes the lodestar out of this depressing and scary shit show.
@7
political parties are particularly bad at judging who is the most electable. Especially in the case of the Democrats when it’s the donors making the decisions, where “electable” tends to be whoever the centrist dipshits like the most. In 2004, Joe Liebermann was the front-runner for a long time before Howard Dean showed up.
@18
It’s not unwritten; it’s in the Constitution; 12th Amendment, to be specific. If the President and Vice-President candidates are both from California, then the California Electors have to vote for somebody else, even if they’re Democratic Electors. In other words, we lose two votes right there; bad idea.
Latest: Vance blames his mother’s addiction to immigrants carrying drugs when in fact she was a nurse who stole opioids from her patients. His ad actually got community corrected.
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/07/jd-vance-called-out-over-lie-about-his
On Biden, I’m pissed he was squeezed out with a smear campaign but assuming Democrats unite around Harris and she gets elected, it means a much more certain Presidency. I had already assumed Harris would be President in the next four years sometime.
@GIJoel: I think you’re absolutely right. 😭
Well, Biden has now done something that Trump would never do – a selfless act for the good of the Country and put others ahead of his ego.
I think Kamala Harris now has to be the nominee – heard something about the funds raised so far in the name of the Biden – Harris campaign only being available if she takes over not if anyone else does. (From a Planet America ep I think.) I also like the heads of the reichwingers exploding at the thought of a Black Woman POTUS. She will set them off and, hopefully, make the extrmeists make some mistakes in going OTT and exposing their utter evil and ugliness. Okay, doing that even more and more openly than ever before.
Now the Democratic party and its supporters need to unite and do allw e possibly can to ensure Trump does not win and take over the USA again. Everything is at stake here..
Update to #23: Shapiro, Cooper, and Newsom have now endorsed Harris.
@30. beholder : “Good.I’d be happier with a resignation and a conviction at the Hague, but at least Genocide Joe is out of office 183 days from now.”
Trump has said he wants Israel to “finish the job.” His erstwhile rival Nikki Haley now typically turned loyal supporter wrote “Finish them!”* on a bomb that was literally dropped on Gaza. Trump recognised the Golan Heights as Israeli land, moved the USA’s embassy to Jerusalem, has a son in law openly licking his lips at the thought of taking Gazan waterfront property for his own financial gain** and, oh yeah, literally has an Israeli settlement named after him. (Trump Heights / Ramat Trump.)***
Would you rather have them in charge instead? Do you call Trump Genocide Don?
Biden criticised Israel and Netanyahu called on them to refrain from invading Rafah and withheld some weapons. Yes, I udnerstand that most here wish Biden would do more. That’s fair enough. But I think calling him by that stupid Trumpian nickname and ignoring the political reality that NO POTUS in the current USA with its large evangelical population and historic, close alliance with israel was ever going to oppose the Israeli war after October 7th is unfair.
Do you think Netanyahu and the israeli and American reichwingers prefer Biden or Trump? The Repugs or the Democrats incharge? Come on, we all know the answer to that.
What do the Republicans deserve then? Eternal govt as a new autocracy with their orange Gawd-Emperor in charge? The chance to implement Project 2025? Would you prefer that? Because currently that’s the alternative. If the Democratic party is destroyed now then you’re going to have a one party state imposed on you & not just you, all Americans – and that party will be the Trump kult party. Which will be catastrophic for the world and see Ukraine as well as Gaza genocided and so much more and worse including an accelerated worsened Global Overheating without any hope of srious climate action.
Yes, the USA needs to have a major overhaul of its political system and esp preferential voting or some alternative that stops it being a two party state
See : https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/5/29/nikki-haley-writes-finish-them-on-israeli-bomb-bound-for-gaza
.** Remember this? https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2024/03/20/the-kushner-plan/
.*** See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights
^ Continued #56 to conclude properly :
Yes, the USA needs to have a major overhaul of its badly flawed political system and esp preferential voting or some alternative that stops it being a two party state. The Electoral College needs to go. One vote should have one value and there should be a whole lot more smaller changes to fix the many problems it has, for example incl currently making third parties unviable spoilers that are exploited Divide’n’conquer style. Worry about that later – and, yes, seriously please, please do worry and work to change things after this election..
Right now priority one absolutely MUST be stopping Trump and his fascist Christian Supremacist take-over of the United States. If you can’t achieve that, if Trump does take power, well, no words really suffice.
@7 raven: Both the Republican and Democratic parties are more fund raising organizations then actual political parties. They don’t have much party organization outside fund raising, they don’t do a lot of planning ahead for future campaigns or training politicians for larger stages later.
Candidates for major office largely select themselves and nobody was going to invest in running against Biden as long as he planned to run. A better organized party would have a backup list but neither party in the US does that sort of thing.
Replacing Biden on ticket would be ‘unlawful’ in some states, Johnson claims. Experts disagree.
One would hope that the Speaker of the House of Representatives, one of our federal legislative bodies, might know something about the law. Alas.
Stupid people abound.
RFK Jr. reinforces possibility of winning 2024 after Biden drops out
Joe Manchin Weighing Re-Registering As A Democrat To Run For 2024 Nomination
Dems ticket should be Harris-Whitmer. Imagine either Trump or Vance trying to cope with powerful successful intelligent women who are at the same level politically. Blow their tiny MAGA minds.
It’s never been too clear to me just how cognitively impaired Biden is. People close to him are all over the place with their claims.
I suspect his COVID diagnosis could be a major factor here. However mentally sharp Biden may still be, at his age COVID could seriously take him down in many ways. It’s quite possible his doctor(s) decided he had it bad and was going to take some time to fully recover, if he didn’t end up with “long COVID.” If he took only three days to a week to fully recover, that might not be so bad, but if it takes him a month, that would — to put it mildly — be a huge problem for his campaign.
StevoR @54, 56, 57
I doubt we see will see eye to eye on the recent Hungary podium (grrr), but yeah the US needs an election overhaul. What a mess. I’m in with Kamala.
As for the Palestinian-Israeli issue I fail to see why not give the Golan Heights to Israel. Syria and Assad suck ass. Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank should have major areas designated as a Palestinian State. All Gaza, most of the West Bank, and Israel’s capital should not be Jerusalem. If not split fairly between concerned parties Jerusalem should be treated as an international entity or put under some fair confessional arrangement.
I really can’t get myself worked up with the Golan Heights. Not nearly the same issue as Gaza, West Bank, or Jerusalem as far as I’m concerned. Kinda like the Sinai except Israel and Egypt were able to come to terms. IMO Bibi and Assad both suck now so toss a coin over Golan.
Hemidactylus, might it be that people who live or have relatives in the Golan Heights have more reason to care?
(I doubt they very much care about who the specific POTUS might be, in comparison)
Reginald Selkirk@60 Someone really needs to give Bobby Jr. a cognitive exam. Even if Trump and Harris dropped dead tomorrow he’d probably still lose to a write in candidate.
John Morales @64
I rarely if ever hear the Golan Heights addressed with the same vehemence as the West Bank, Gaza, or Jerusalem. Seems more a Syria-Israel thing than a Palestinian statehood thing.
Hemidactylus: That could be because Israel formally annexed the Golan Heights in 1981, and since then everyone seemed to accept that they’d never consider giving that piece of land up. YMMV, but I’ve heard very little mention of the Golan Heights, from any party or state, since then.
VolcanoMan@20:
So is a rutabaga.
And still does, after sleeping, golfing, and “whuh? Nuclear triad, whazzat?”ing his way through his term.
Only time would undo it. 10,000 years or so of it, according to the radiation experts I consulted.
marner@21:
How far should I put it from ground zero so the flash insta-pops it but doesn’t reduce it to charred crumbs? I suppose that depends on the yield …
birgerjohanssen@26:
Really? He’s been stepping on every kind of political rake with his rantery since 2015’s infamous escalator ride and it hasn’t torpedoed him yet. What makes you think two or three more will finally do the job?
beholder@30:
Tee hee hee. Northrup-Grumman would have their head. Probably literally. (I’ve always suspected Kennedy was contemplating reversing course on Vietnam right before he got shot.) And rug-pulling NATO just like that would turn Europe Putin-red in a split femtosecond. Any wind-down of American imperialism would have to be done more gradually, and in coordination with a ramp-up of more local self-defense capabilities under a more decentralized mutual-assistance pact, to not just result in the vacuum being quickly filled by someone worse.
Frankly, it’s a miracle that Carter got in, and was even permitted to exit his term while still vertical. I doubt the MIC’s shareholders will make that mistake again in our lifetimes.
drivenb4u@34:
These are distinct?
John Morales@64:
Agreed. That sort of “white people need to step in and draw their new borders for them” kind of thinking is how we got into this mess in the first place.
I wish Harris the best of look — she’s going to need it. We all are.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m off to window shop at Zillow. What’s Patagonian real estate going for right now? …
(I’ve always suspected Kennedy was contemplating reversing course on Vietnam right before he got shot.)
Yeah, right, like pulling our military advisors out of Vietnam was gonna destroy America’s military-industrial complex or threaten even one millionaire’s financial stability?
I can see the Mafia killing JFK for losing their very lucrative casino and resort businesses in Cuba; but established corporations killing him just for not waging a war? Please. The owners of such corporations can easily adapt to lost contracts — by, you know, laying off people at the bottom — without losing any of their own money or having to assassinate anyone. And that, of course, is assuming that any given policy change would actually result in lost business for any company; which is not a tenable assumption.
RFK Jr. reinforces possibility of winning 2024 after Biden drops out
Yeah, he could win 2024 — for Trump.
Re.@ 59
The speaker of the House was simply the least disliked of the Republican candidates – he does not appear to know very much.
Much more likely that ADA Brainworm will siphon votes away from Trump than from the Democratic candidate, I’d have thought.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m off to window shop at Zillow. What’s Patagonian real estate going for right now? … – Bekenstein Bound@68
Would you care to fill in why you see Biden’s withdrawal increasing the chances of nuclear war? My hunch is that there’s no actual chain of reasoning there to fill in, but you can easily prove me wrong.
The great advantage of Biden’s withdrawal for the Democrats is that it provides a chance to reset the narrative. At least since the disastrous debate, Democrat disarray and Republican unity and triumphalism have meant that narrative has appeared to have only one plausible ending: Trump’s victory. Of course there is absolutely no guarantee Harris (or any possible alternative, but it will be and should be Harris) will win, but at least she doesn’t look like a predetermined loser.
@63-66 Hemidactylus : Yes, the Golan Heights was part of Syria & not teh former Mandate of Palestine :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights
It is also strategic being literally the high ground making israel unlikely to ever surrender it
@63-66 Hemidactylus, StevoR@75,
There is the minor point that annexation of territory gained in war is against international law, however nasty the state or regime you gained it from, but of course international law has never applied to Israel.
There needs to be a primary that’s fair and open. If they don’t, it’s going to backfire like the Clinton/sanders debacle of 2016.
Anointing Harris, who is unpopular in her own party, is a horrible mistake but democrats seem to love to lose, so I’m sure she will basically run unopposed and anyone wanting to challenge it will be shunned for dividing the party and that the focus should “just be on beating trump.” Who needs democratically elected officials anyways?
Donald Trump Fumes Over Biden Leaving Race In Unhinged Late Night Rant: ‘It’s Not Over!’
Now when people talk about a candidate being too old, and demented, we will know who they are talking about.
Sebastian Gorka came out and did his usual thing, calling Harris various names until the TV program leader had to rein him in.
They are so classy, that crowd.
Quite a few of them ended up as convicted criminals sentenced to prison.
Plus the January 6th insurrectionists at 900 convicted. And the various state cases in Arizona, Georgia, and Michigan for election fraud.
Trump himself is a convicted felon.
The local GOP party is selling t shirts with the message, “I’m voting for the felon.” If that isn’t classy, then what is?
ducksmcclucken@77,
Anyone voting for Biden in the primaries knew – or at least, should have known – that Harris was there to step up if he was to be unable to continue as president, so presumably at least found her acceptable, which is more than can be said for any potential rival. As to “there needs to be a primary that’s fair and open”, how exactly do you propose organising one in the time available?
The idea that a Cold Warrior like JFK, who was a big fan of the Green Berets, was going to pull out of Vietnam seems rather naive. Perhaps he wouldn’t have escalated things the way Johnson did, but there still would have been a large US presence after November of ’63.
ducksmcclucken is exactly the worry I’ve had all along about Biden quitting, that too many people would go “We wanted Biden gone, but you weren’t supposed to pick him/her!” But after the announcement yesterday tens of millions of dollars were donated to the Democrats, so the move seems very popular.
timgueguen@82,
There do seem to be a few taking that line with regard to Harris, such as Cenk Uygur at TYT, while at Daily Kos there seem to be a number of “I voted for Biden in the primary and now I’ve been robbed and I’m not going to vote for anyone else against Trump” idiots. Harris wouldn’t have been my first choice if I’d had a vote in the 2020 primaries, or perhaps even if Biden had had the sense and decency to get out of the way earlier and there had been competitive 2024 primaries, but she’s going to be able to fight a proper campaign, with unscripted events, and passing her over would have severe disadvantages.
timgueguen @82
I wasn’t alive at the time, but I recall there was regime change enacted in South Vietnam not long before it happened in the US too. Diem and his brother both preceded JFK. His sister-in-law was a real piece of work, especially with that BBQ monk comment toward the famous self-immolation.
There needs to be a primary that’s fair and open. If they don’t, it’s going to backfire like the Clinton/sanders debacle of 2016.
Apples to wombats. There’s really no similarity between those two events, other than the fact that they both involved the same party. (Also, how, exactly, did whatever you’re talking about “backfire?”)
I will vote for whomever the Dems nominate. Because Trump is that big a threat to democracy, decency, rule of law, our climate future, etc.
If it was Biden, I would have voted for Biden. If Biden was comatose and being kept alive on machines, I still would have voted for Biden. If they unplugged those machines, I would have voted for Biden’s corpse.
Since it’s not going to be Biden, I am not going to quibble about who his replacement is. Because they’re certainly not going to pick anyone nearly as bad as Trump.
Raging Bee@85,
Don’t you remember? The DNC magically took control of the hands of voters in the Democratic primaries, forcing them to vote for Clinton when they’d meant to vote for Sanders, and then the media and James Comey harped on about “her emails” so much she lost, while if Sanders had been the candidate they’d have been entirely fair, and he’d have won!
I don’t see it as flibbertigibbet. The flibbertery and the gibbetish are both disingenuous substitutes for their malicious hatred for anyone other than their wealthy fascist racist masters whose asses they have learned to assiduously lick because they have seen how many other “journalism” jobs have been lost.
Harris is the only real choice, she has legitimately won the primary and is the logical successor to Biden; people were voting for the Biden/Harris ticket not specifically Biden after all. Any other choice would be seen as arbitrary, additionally there is the question of campaign funds, which as I understand it, only the Biden Harris ticket has legal claim to. The dems could try and do a messy floor nom at the convention, but you would face the problem of pushing Harris aside, as she might not want to and continue to take up space. There is the third fact that Harris would still have the benefit of incumbency while being able to distance herself from the less popular aspects of Biden.The dems made this bed for all of us to sleep in back in 2020 when they rallied around the clearly unfit Biden just to stop Bernie and we just have to live with the consequences unfortunately.
Republicans call on Biden to leave White House
That’s pretty stupid. Finishing out the last six months of his term is a thoroughly different scale from committing to another 4 years.
Reginald Selkirk @ # 90: Finishing out the last six months of his term …
I can’t help but suspect the “Biden resign now!” clamor from the right wing includes some crude reverse psychology, trying to get that pigheaded Irishman to cling to his position so the electorate won’t get used to hearing “President Harris…” every day for 3 1/2 months.
I keep hearing that if Biden steps aside as POTUS Mike Johnson becomes VP as Harris becomes President. That seems BS:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/20/fact-check-if-vp-becomes-president-house-speaker-doesnt-move-vp/3399838001/
Now how difficult would it be in the current legislative climate for a VP pick by Harris to be confirmed?
@86
That’s the point I’m making, if you just force a candidate because we are told she is the logical choice, then have an open convention and see if she is the logical pick, by using the democratic process.
Hemidactylus: Yeah, that’s why Johnson is calling for Biden to resign: so there will be no VP (because the Republicans in both houses will refuse to confirm anyone Harris appoints), and thus the next bunch of armed loony “patriots” can make their move on Harris knowing they’d be putting one of their own in the White House.
ducks: Who is “forcing a candidate?” Seriously, WTF are you talking about?
@Raging bee
The leadership of the dnc is trying to force their choice on to the people. So rather than everyone fall inline behind someone that is very unpopular and couldn’t get a delegate when she ran, they should calling for an open convention and debates. that is forcing a candidate.
LOL, they’ve raised almost $100 million in donations since yesterday afternoon, from hundreds of thousands of people, 60% of whom were donating to the campaign for the first time and 43,000 (IIRC) of whom signed up to make a recurring donation. Harris has been endorsed by pretty much everyone, including all of the people who had been floated as possible presidential contenders. No one has come forward to challenge her. Tens of thousands of people signed up within hours to volunteer for the campaign. The group Win With Black Women held a Zoom call yesterday which drew 44,000 people, fired everyone up, overwhelmed Zoom, and raised $1.5 million in a few hours. The party hasn’t seen this much enthusiasm since like Obama, and is as unified as it’s been in a long time.
From today’s Guardian US politics liveblog just now:
@76. KG :
Fair point. Anyhow, my original point in #56 is that Trump’s recognition of the Golan as Israeli along with his shifting, the embassy,having his son-in-law openly dreaming about gaza waterfront property, ad naseam shows Trump would be (has already been) far worse for the Palestinians than Biden – or any Democratic candidate, As well as worse for Syria, worse for the rest of the world generally. Also that labelling Biden as Beholder and some others do is arguably unfair.
@sc
If that is all true, then she should sweep through an open convention. Why leave open for criticism?
The only criticism, and I use the term generously, I’ve seen is on this thread. I have to think it’s trolling, bad faith, or wildly ignorant. In any case, it’s disconnected from reality. Pretty sure the Democratic Party doesn’t care about such silliness.
Also, in breaking news, the huge California delegation has joined several other state delegations in backing Harris. She’ll probably have all the delegates she needs by tomorrow, and if not certainly by Wednesday. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
More breaking news, from the CNN liveblog:
The NYT is reporting the same thing.
timgueguen@82:
What if he already knew that the war could not be won, and thus that not doing so would only amount to throwing good money (and American lives!) after bad?
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP90-00552R000707160028-2.pdf
The CIA (those’d be the guys who really ought to know these sorts of things) was having its doubts by 1965. Possibly earlier. Maybe earlier enough. They wouldn’t have said it publicly at the time, but they would have been duty-bound to inform the President of their conclusions.
@sc
The media also said Biden was sharp and not having any issues. Until they couldn’t hide it anymore after the debate. So let’s do the same with Harris, have an open convention and allow the votes to come in after having a small primary with debate. Otherwise it’s just more hidden moves by dnc leadership. I can guarantee it, if Harris doesn’t face some kind of opposition in an open format, she will lose the general. The DNC leadership and their tendency to pick who they want and clear the field, is going to come back and bite them again.
@ ^ ducksmcclucken : I think the opposite is true – political in fighting, bickering and people attacking each other (esp attacking Harris) within the Democratic Party is more likely to cost the Democratic party the election and install Trump. Its time to unify and completely support the nominee who will be – is now – Kamala Harris.
Divide’n’conquer is the oldest trick in the book. You really want to advocate falling for it?
PS. @103. ducksmcclucken : “The media also said Biden was sharp and not having any issues. “
Firstly, nope, the media especially the Trumpists Murdoch side has been strongly pushing the opposite narrative ever sicne Biden was elected.Its beena common trope in reichwing circles that Biden was pretty much brain dead with others running the govt behind the scenes – usually Obama – since 2020.
Secondly, just because parts of the media say it doesn’t make it true. Has Biden really been that bad. Yes, the debate was a shocker, yes, its exceedingly well known that he’s an old man. But simultaneously we’ve seen him make plenty of good calls and there’s the whole Dark Brandon thing and he’s governed pretty well and whilst I think he was too old to do another term I think there’s plenty of evidence to argue he’s not been as bad as the Repugs and some media make out. So Ithink you’ve fallen for a false narrative or at very least an exaggerated one.
Thirdly and finally, doesn’t the truth matter mor ethan what the media say? Are you going togive Rupert Murdoch and his malignant media empire a veto on who becomes POTUS and if they lie enough do they get to determine the course of politics? We need better media and pushback against liars and the misinfo cand slander campaigns here. Not appeasingand aquiesceing to them and their falsehoods.
The media also said Biden was sharp and not having any issues.
Again, who the fuck are you talking about? I know lots of news outlets admitted that Biden wasn’t as senile or incapacitated as Republicans kept saying he was; but that was just responding to Republican bullshit, not lying or covering anything up for Biden.
…it’s just more hidden moves by dnc leadership.
God’s balls, do you even know what the word “hidden” means? We’re seeing huge numbers of rank-and-file Democrats LOUDLY saying they support Harris, and (AFAIK) absolutely NO ONE saying they want to be the nominee instead. There’s nothing “hidden” going on here, and no hint of any serious dissent being silenced or punished. Biden’s dropping out of the race, and his party are pivoting to present — TO THE PUBLIC, mind you — someone else as their candidate. Nothing is being “hidden” here.
Seriously, ducky, do you have ANY CLUE what you’re talking about?
@#4, fernando:
One would think that they would also have learned something from Hillary Clinton’s pneumonia — if your candidate is in poor health, you don’t lie about it to the public (in fact, you don’t comment at all unless you have to!), and you don’t put them in a position where they cannot hide their illness. Remember how there were rumors for a couple of weeks that there was something wrong with Clinton, and the Democrats denied it absolutely, and then she collapsed from illness and dehydration, and it let the Republicans claim — quite truly — that the Democrats were liars? The stupidity of letting Biden do a debate at night when his aides admit (although without actually using the term) that he has been sundowning for months is enough, all by itself, to make his administration look too incompetent to govern. (Similar arguments can and have been made about Trump — there’s a poll/tweet/something like that floating around where a bona fide Republican says, basically, “I don’t mind that Trump paid off a stripper, but if he’s too incompetent to cover that up afterwards I don’t think he’s competent enough to run a government.”)
According to this article at Politico, Biden and his campaign had not been doing any serious poll-watching in battleground states for two months. They just assumed he was doing well enough to get reelected. That, too, is reminiscent of Hillary Clinton in 2016, who lost primaries in the Rust Belt and then basically did not campaign there after the convention. (IIRC, she had exactly one post-primary public appearance in Wisconsin on her schedule, and she canceled it — but did show up for a $500-a-plate private fundraiser for the rich, just to leave no doubt in Wisconsinite minds who she really cared about. Instead of campaigning in states where she had a chance, she spent nearly all her time in states she was definitely going to win, like New York and California, and states where she had no realistic chance but was hoping to shoot the moon and brag about it, like Arizona.) If I were Harris, I’d weed out anybody who was involved in decision-making in the 2016 campaign and keep them far, far away from anything important.
@#48, gijoel
The news doesn’t go in for that because… well, partially because a very large chunk of the ownership of the media wants Trump in the White House again, but also because Trump’s faults are not news any more. The Democrats screwed everything up through their choices of nominations; by choosing a Clinton, they made it impossible to attack Trump for his sex scandals, for fear that Trump would come back with “I may have my issues, but at least I never traded government work for sex like Clinton did — which do you think is a worse thing for a President?”. By choosing Biden — who is either entering senility or, according to the people who defend him, has always been such a poor speaker that he has sounded senile all along (these people are only fooling themselves), they made it impossible to attack Trump for his incipient (and inherited) Alzheimer’s. When these various things were breaking news, they were neutralized. And now if you say “Trump has sex scandals!” or “Trump is mentally unfit!” or “Trump lies a lot!”, everybody will say “yes, we know that”. And, of course, Biden decided to continue with building Trump’s border wall, putting kids in cages, and ignoring Covid, and also proceeded to increase funding to our increasingly-violent cops and our over-bloated military while increasing fossil fuel production and usage, so Democrats have a very hard time attacking Trump on policy, too. Biden is already slowly and quietly implementing a whole bunch of Project 2025 that we’re all supposed to be afraid of. This is the danger of relying on a purely negative campaign — Democrats have spent the last 8 and a half years relying on fear of Trump rather than on any positive feeling about their own candidates, and so everybody’s heard all their messaging by now. You can say a lot of negative things about Obama as President, but both his campaigns were better run than anything the Democrats have done since 2012.
@#68, Bekenstein Bound
If it’s a nuclear war with Russia, current simulations suggest that there is nowhere in North America which will be safe — the initial firestorms will destroy all the major cities (20+ mile radius fireballs at temperatures hot enough to combust even materials which normally would be noncombustable, based on current understanding of bombs — old simulations did not take the actual megatonnage of Russian nukes into account), and between the interactions with the atmosphere (cold air getting sucked in from the upper atmosphere would cause a multi-week freeze, at a time when nobody would be able to safely leave their houses for fuel and no electricity would be working) and the radioactive fallout afterwards, the entire continent will be dead, either quickly or agonizingly slowly. Depending on how the wind behaves afterwards, it’s even possible that the fallout from North America would be enough to kill most of South America or even go over the pole and kill any parts of Russia which survived US retaliatory strikes. The same applies to Europe, the mideast, and northern Africa — Russia has enough large bombs to wipe us all out and then some. And then afterwards there’s a great deal of question whether the damaged ecology left over on the planet would be capable of supporting complex lifeforms anyway. If NATO overplays its hand and Putin decides he’d rather die a martyr than “lose”, we are all completely screwed. If the opponent is China, the destruction of every living thing everywhere is less certain, but still possible.
@#71, birgerjohansson:
I’m not even sure of that — by the time he was floated as a candidate, the Republicans were getting seriously embarrassed by their inability to confirm a speaker, so it is at least plausible that Johnson was as hated as (or even more hated than) earlier candidates, but was given a pass just to get the ordeal over with.
@#77, ducksmcclucken
That’s not a valid comparison. There’s no Sanders equivalent — a candidate in the running who wants to challenge Harris and who has enough support to plausibly give Harris a serious contest. Can you name any Democrat who has expressed any interest in running in the last 6 years, who hasn’t already endorsed Harris in public since Biden withdrew? I’m pretty sure every single candidate who ran in 2020 has already endorsed her, including Sanders and Warren, so it would almost certainly have to be somebody running for the very first time, against a candidate with an already-huge war chest and much greater name recognition. At some point party primary voters have to just accept that the presumptive nominee may have to drop out (or may die or be incapacitated) between the state primaries and the convention, particularly if the presumptive nominee is an incumbent so old that people were already worrying about senility in the previous election — if you’re casting a ballot for somebody who is already half a decade older than the median national lifespan, you can’t claim you were unaware of the risks.
@#98, StevoR
Every single Palestinian who has talked about it online has said there is no difference to them — either way, they’ll get tortured, starved, and slaughtered. There’s literally no way left for Trump to be worse than Biden. And Israel is currently, unlike when Trump was in office, outright bombing not just the Palestinians but also Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen. (And, incidentally, US planes — presumably acting under Biden’s orders — have been observed participating in the bombing runs.) I understand that you really, really want to be able to say Trump is worse than your guy in every way, but it simply isn’t true in this case. Biden is shockingly evil on this. The bad news for Democrats is that Harris has already publicly made herself complicit, but the good news is that enough people weren’t paying attention to her at the time that the party can probably scapegoat Biden until the election.
@#100, SC (Salty Current)
Even ignoring the fact that a century ago it was relatively common for candidates to be chosen at the convention rather than being de facto winners beforehand, they already have the legal precedent from 2016 that the Democratic Party, being a corporation, is not beholden to the public in any way and can even, if it really wants to, ignore the delegates completely when selecting a candidate. (The point, as you have already pointed out, does not arise since Harris already has enough delegates to be the winner, but if it did we know there’s nothing anybody could do to force them to change their minds, short of assassinating the corporation’s choice.)
Vicar the singular:
One would, would one?
Hm.
So, what about Trumo’s pathological narcissism?
Important to note what you think was common a century ago, is it?
Heh.
@21. marner : “Simply crowning Harris as the party’s nominee would be a mistake. She is disliked and may be the one Democrat less likely to win than Biden.”
Wrong! Clearly wrong as this and time are already showing
Also name me a single current era politician who is NOT “disliked” especially as soon as they are seriously in the running to become POTUS please?
A lot of Repugs hate absolutely all Democrats with extreme fanaticism whether they are even in politics or their actual next door neighbours let alone those high profile figures at the top of the political hierarchy.
@107. The Vicar (via Freethoughtblogs) : “Every single Palestinian who has talked about it online has said there is no difference to them — either way, they’ll get tortured, starved, and slaughtered. There’s literally no way left for Trump to be worse than Biden.”
Citations needed and your lack of imagination and totally ignoring the points made in my #56 here are rather staggering :
As for your claim that :
Well check out the list here – were or were these not outright bombings between 2017 and 2019 ie during the Trump presidency, Vicar? :
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israel_Defense_Forces_operations#2011%E2%80%93present
(Bolded a quintet semi-randomly to illustrate.)
Oh it absolutely is true and all the objective evidence shows it. Your unevidenced assertion otherwise revealing your own bias and willful ignorance in favour of a Trump takeover and Accelerationism that will lead to far more deaths and destruction and horror than we can ever calculate here. Shame on you. There was no way any POTUS would do other than support Israel post October 7th. There is still a notable difference between Biden demanding and pleading for restraint eg in NOT invading Rafah from Israel and trying to end the genocide even if unsuccessfully versus Trump and the Repugs openly cheering it on and encouraging Israel to go full genocidaire. As mentioned before, Netanyahu (as well as Putin) is hoping for Trump to take over and we know why. Recall again how Trump actually used “Palestinian ” as a slur to describe Biden during the debate and how the reichwingers generally think Biden is far too sympathetic to them and soft on them.
If you were Harris, I’d be trying to come to terms with the certainty of Trump’s return to the White House!
People keep talking about her not winning a primary, but she fucking did as bidens vp. Like acting like that doesn’t matter is just disingenuous. Like I don’t fucking like her and I hate the democrats in general, but acting like a child and denying reality makes you look silly. The republicans are objectively worse both for Americans and the world. Admitting that doesn’t make the democrats “good,” but pretending somehow the blood and soil nazis planning on “deporting” 20 million people en mass are “the same” as centrist neolibs is deranged. Check out and grill, and organize your workplace or something, yelling about the dems does nothing.
As a non-R non-D this is just more shifting around of things in a group not mentioned in the constitution to me. And the Rs are helping with their narratives.
I see Rd and Ds game the system against one another too. I’m saying any of that is bad either. I hate the abuse of medical diagnosis I’ve seen by Ds pointed at Biden and to me it was little different than the Rs and their dementia talk.
And I am pragmatic. I was voting for Biden, and am pleased by the improved possibilities with Harris. And people can complain about Harris like I did Biden’a sexual harassment, while also pointing out Trump’s moral awfulness as well as that as the American right-wing broadly.
People don’t have to do it my way but not every way satisfies the Ds/Harris winning and delivers warranted criticism.
Brony@114,
Could you provide an English translation?
@KG
No. You can try to grapple with it first. Same with the other post. Baiting with insults won’t help.
@Brony,
I see no reason to think it would be worth the time.
Raging bee
I think you understand where I’m coming from. I’ll vote for Harris, she not perfect and I have my concerns just as would for anyone for president, my concern comes from know how this will play out, I’m sure you have heard it. Shore the complaints.
So only hearing crickets from The Vicar here in response to my #111 above.
@ ^ Still nothing from The Vicar in response. Wonder why.. have my suspicions.