I had Papa John’s pizza once, long ago, and did not care for it at all, and haven’t had any since…which means a boycott by me isn’t going to change anything at all. But since “Papa John”, John Schnatter, is a terrible human being, sure, boycott the place. He’s an evangelical Christian/Republican who hates the poor except when he can suck the money out of their pockets for crappy pizzas. He’s now blaming the NFL for a major financial loss, because somehow the fact that he advertises heavily at games where players are now kneeling to protest racism means viewers buy less pizza? I don’t quite follow the logic, but OK.
Of course, no boycott is going to hurt Schnatter. He’s built a personal fortune of $800 million off his terrible pizza chain, so really, he could not sell a single pizza ever again and he’d still be living on the lap of luxury, praising Jesus and refusing to pay the hired help a decent wage. I guess I’ll have to add his name to the long list of Up Against the Wall nominees.
By the way, how did the boycott of Chik-Fil-A’s homophobic executives go? Nothing seems to get in between awful, exploitive fast food franchises and the American public.
We bought a Papa John’s pizza once, and I couldn’t even try it because (whatever we’d ordered) literally looked like tomato-based vomit baked on a pizza crust. I’m not using “literally” in a figurative sense, either. Pizza Hut might suck too, but I’ve never had them send me pizza that looked like it had already been eaten and recycled.
I make a pretty good marinara. It would be fitting to braise him in it.
I like Papa John’s pizza, but have not ordered any since finding out that he is a terrible human being.
Papa John, Dominos, and Caesars as always been on my Nope list when it comes to pizzas of any kind, not because of their corporate political/religious views but because they make a very shitty pizza. I avoid chik-filla for similar reasons but primarily because I don’t want chicken that has been injected with who-knows-what kind of chemicals to make it “juicy” even after deep frying it almost to the point of initiating nuclear fusion in it. I guess those are kinds of personal boycotts that seems to be working. They aren’t getting any of my money.
Dante had the miserly rich attached to giant bags of money, dragging them round behind them in the second circle of Hell. I reckon 800 million dollars in gold chained to the guy’s neck would make for an appropriate penalty.
I had a bad moment there before I remembered the pizza place we patronized is Papa Murphy’s, not John. No idea whether that owner is an arsehole or not, but you can custom order a pizza, then take it home to bake it up fresh.
Re @4:
I recently saw a listicle comparison of the CEOs of Papa Johns , and Little Ceasars. The latter looks like a real philanthropist vs PJ’s greedy jerkwad.
Little Ceasars CEO paid Rosa Park’s rent the last few years of her life as empathetic gift.
While I tend to avoid franchise pizza in favor of local digs Little Ceasar’s still gets my nod.
—
Re OP
I can see all NFL sponsors getting affected by Colin’s protest. Both ways: boycotting games to support the protest, or boycott due to anger at the protesters. To put ALL his losses solely on the protesters is disregarding all the other exploitative practices that are also coming to light. Simultaneity is not evidence of causation.
I guess I’ll have to add his name to the long list of Up Against the Wall nominees.
At last a use for the snatch snatchers wall ,f he ever gets round to building it .
Without any actual investigation on my part, I read his remark as meaning that pizza sales are down because football-watching is down, because Trumplings are actually boycotting the NFL in response to Trump’s incitement: i.e., that an appreciable chunk of their business comes from people ordering pizza to eat during games.
HA! Top this: I have not been to any McD franchise for 40 years. Started my little boycott then after reading a funny one in the paper.
The store in Providence, R.I. had had its front window broken, and somebody found a brick inside, complete with little note attached: “You deserve a brick today.” (Young guys ask the old ones about their old jingle.)
HAR HAR HAR HAR
archangelospumoni:
Easily. There was a pickle incident the first time I ever ate at a McD’s, when I was nine years old.That was the last time I ever ate at one, which was 51 years ago.
I would have to imagine that the marketing metrics for his pizza chain can track the fluctuations based on nfl games.
I am not sure what type of athletics UM at Morris has but I know for a fact plenty of small businesses in college towns that rely on the revenue from the months of college football.
On another note, the article references another story where the PJ CEO looked drunk in a picture with some louisville fans. I am not exactly sure the despicable nature of that story or the one PZ references. I would have to hear every remark he made but what is reported seems to be he is blaming the NFL lower viewership on selling less pizzas. Then, goes on to blame the NFL leadership for not handling the protest. Just because someone is against the NFL anthem protests does not make them a bad person. Is he a bad person? I have no idea. I don’t care but I don’t eat there because of how nice someone is. I am more of a little caesars or hungry howies. My guess would be that cheaper, better pizza is hurting him more than NFL. Ultimately, the two reports of his conduct here leaves much to the imagination in order to say he is a vile human being. Maybe he raped or sexually assaulted one of those louisville students and that would change my view. There seems to be a lot of that going on lately.
Go ahead and shop at stores whose owner/CEO has never done anything bad or ripped someone off. Unless you are going to use the same selection process for everything you buy then the liberals nitwits in this world should just stop being a cancer.
I think the logic is that people (e.g. my sister-in-law and her friends) are incensed at “our players” kneeling during the national anthem and disrespecting “our troops” (her words), so they are refusing to watch the games. Therefore, they don’t see the adds and forget to eat at Papa John’s…You’re right. That makes no sense.
I can’t boycott because I have never eaten at Papa John’s and never will. Nor will I go to Dominos, Chik-Fil-A, Mikie D’s, BK, KFC, Taco Bell, and a host of other death-food eating establishments. I have eaten at some of them in the past, especially the one’s that cater to traveling families with small children. When my son was about 12, he figured out they are terrible and that ended it. Yeah! Thank you from the inside of my cardiac arteries.
Yes, do what YOU want. Just stop complaining amorally about the behavior of the left. They are more moral than you by a long shot. Hence your continued laughable attempts to show the left is wrong.
“The rich can’t eat money” is an old Russian proverb.
“Let them try” is Madame Defarge’s response.
There have been several documented incidents of molten gold being poured into someone’s mouth as a way of indicating extreme displeasure with their greed.
I’m pretty cool with considering someone who opposes orderly protest against racism a vile person.
Marcus:
Wealthy Romans had a nasty habit of punishing slaves by pouring molten lead down their throats, which neatly got rid of those pesky slaves who thought they were actual people.
ctech:
Oh, the dumbass speaks. Again. What makes you think people don’t do that? I’m very conscious of where I spend money.
When I saw an article on this, I immediately added Papa John’s to the bin with Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby. I’ve never darkened the door of any of them, so not giving them any future business is moot anyway. Plus I’m not a sports fan, and particularly not a football fan.
ctech: “Just because someone is against the NFL anthem protests does not make them a bad person.”
Um, actually it does. It means he’s just fine with a justice system rotten throughout with institutionalized racism. Want to get the NFL players off their knees? Easy. Just get on board with common sense justice reform. How hard is that?
I’m an old guy and can’t recall the “brick” item. (archangelospumoni)
On an environmental bent I’d suggest a general boycott of beef. (uses too much water) This leaves you with fish or chicken. Local preference. I love catfish (pond raised, watch for pollution), bass and bream (bluegills, sunfish) too.
As a personal request, please save my aging memory and insert definitions and explanations. (NBC ?? NBC (National Broadcasting Corporation), NAT (NAT (network address translation))
Jack16
@18 Caine: The point is that even if you are so conscious of where you spend money it is unlikely you know the histories of every place that you do spend money. I am not saying people don’t do that it. I am saying it is an exercise in futility. I understand people may think they are doing the right thing but they are just being blissfully ignorant. For example, you have a Country Foods and a Hometown Foods. You find out the owner of Hometown Foods is a child predator and is in prison and now his sons runs it who has similar allegations. So, you start going to Country Foods. What you don’t know about Country Foods is the owner secretly weighs down his scale in order to overcharge his customers, keeps two books, and last year he chased down two would be shoplifters and murdered them in cold blood. @14/18 So, not only is the left morally just as bad but also a little dumber.
All things being equal. You should not eat Papa Johns because you don’t like the pizza or it costs too much. I can understand that. You should not eat Papa Johns because you think the owner is a bad person because he is against the NFL anthem protests.
@22
That doesn’t follow at all, and that same heuristic you’re using would preclude any moral judgements at all.
“Oh sure, we can call bob, who just got convicted with 40 murders under his belt, a bad guy. But what about pete from the general store, who is secretly molesting his daughters? It’s therefore futile to condemn people for being bad, because for every bob you see, there might be fifty pete’s you don’t see.”
Except, that’s silly. Human beings operate based on the information available to them. We don’t have to consider the millions of unreported crimes in order to justify condemning the ones that do get reported. In the same vein, we don’t have to consider the terrible business practices we don’t know about in order to justify condemning the ones we do know about.
Caine, #17,
While there were undoubtedly cases of extreme cruelty towards slaves in Rome, and the ghoulish stories were popular among Roman writers (Vedius Pollio was supposed to have thrown his to the conger eels in his fishpond), the sad economic truth is that if a Roman was unhappy with insubordinate slaves then he or she would usually just take them back to the slave market and buy replacements. Trade them in for a more compliant model as it were.
@20 a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
Umm… no it doesn’t. That does not mean people who are against the NFL anthem protests are also against protesting and against all discussions of justice reform. They are against the NFL players using that platform for that agenda.
Protests, while allowed in the US, do have rules and guidelines. The NFL, which is a private company, can set their own rules and guidelines on how their company should conduct business.
It is a crap protest and hasn’t made the first attempt to actually make a change to the justice system you are talking about. I am not against NFL players protesting, but just not when they are supposed to be working.
It is dishonest and a knock against the left’s way of thinking by stretching the idea that someone is against NFL anthem protests to that they are ok with injustice. Look at yourselves and realize that your way of thinking is a lot of the problem. It is full of lies, hate, and bigotry yet you constantly try to “call out” the other side for the same thing. Actually, nothing is wrong with that hypocrisy but at the end of the day you should realize that you are the same smug, stupid assholes that you hate.
Shorter ctech, if you can’t be a perfect person why bother trying to be a better person.
It really just maps out to some weird combination of relative privation and “you too!” fallacy.
I don’t support companies that have been shown to do things I oppose.
Papa Johns, by condemning the protests, have been shown to do something I oppose.
Ergo, I don’t support them.
Whether or not other companies do bad (or even worse) things is completely irrelevant to the question.
@3 Vivec: Not knowing doesn’t make you less wrong and as I called it was blissfully ignorant. It is a pure futile boycott. Especially, if your goal is that no vile people get your money. Now, it is just insulting your intelligence.
@28
My goal is no people that I know to have done things I consider bad enough to be worth boycotting receive my money. The existence of people doing bad things that I don’t know about is irrelevant to that heuristic.
@26 throwawaygradstudent: This is not about trying to be a better or perfect person. It is about being realistic.
Also, if you don’t eat at chik-fila and you call yourself better than someone who does eat there then you have a serious personality problem.
Glass houses, etc
@29 Vivec: Hey, as long as you can sleep at night, right?
@32
If you would like to actually point out how the presence of unknown bad actors contradicts that heuristic, feel free to do so.
I’ve never had Papa Johns, there isn’t even one in my hometown. If I want pizza I usually go to one of the local establishments, which have much better pizza anyway.
ctech, #25,
So you’re not saying you are against protesting against the racist injustice of the US police force, you just think that it’s not as important to protest against racist injustice as it is to leave the disgusting jingoistic tubthumping they do at the beginning of sporting events to run its course. You think that explicitly political nationalistic display on behalf of the capitalist class is of greater value than drawing attention to the racist murder of the oppressed. You think that people with a platform they can use to speak out against injustice shouldn’t do so for the benefit of disgustingly wealthy corporate vampires.
That, sorry to say, makes you a bad person.
ctech, #22
Why?
Same thing. They consider running with a ball more important than the lives of black people being murdered by their own governments.
You really don’t understand how oppression and protesting works, do you?
How the fuck can oppressed black people make change to the justice system? That is white society’s job. Oppressed people can only point out the injustice and try to change it indirectly. If it was in their power to change it, it would have already been changed.
Also, your don’t protest when you’re supposed to be working is fucking hilarious. Protests are supposed to be disruptive and insubordinate acts. It’s not a protest if it can be easily made out of sight, out of mind. The less ignore-able and less convenient a protest is for the oppressors and their collaborators, the more successful it is.
Shorter ctech, “Stop doing social activity I don’t like!”
“Only protest the the way I want!”
No.
Unrealistic? You pulled that out of your ass. Nitpicking someone’s method of protest without a shred of logic is pure motivated reasoning as far as I am concerned. I don’t give a fuck if it’s their jobs. If you assert crap like that with a sensitive topic and such piss-poor attempts to demonstrate your presentation of reality you deserve harsh responses.
Now there’s your “unrealistic”, go stare in the mirror and think about that for a bit.
@36 Saad:
Yes, to the NFL the most important thing is football. Why wouldn’t it be? Do you want your lawyer’s top priority to be boycotting to remove a bad judge or would you rather your attorney be working on your case? Just because you want your attorney working on your case instead of on the corner of the courthouse boycotting does not make you a bad person or makes you against removing the bad judge. The only other response to your post would be that you are not wrong on some successful keys of protesting. However, when a group would perform a sit-in it was usually at a relevant time and location. How does hurting your company help enact change? That is why the NFL has guidelines for protests and even certain pieces of equipment. Also, there was no demand. A good protest has a demand. The anthem protest is “we making people aware”. Wtf? People are aware and if they are not then a backup quarterback sitting on the sidelines is not going to suddenly put them in the know. An awareness campaign should still have a goal. It is typically to raise money not enact change. So, unless the goal was to raise money for people who lost family members killed by cops, otherwise, the protest is worthless and just because it has recognition does not make it successful.
Oppressed black people want to make a change? Get to the polls.
Protests are about confrontations with the rest of society and airing one’s grievances. It’s not supposed to be pleasant and accommodating towards the people one is protesting against. In fact the people the protestors ate protesting about will tend to either do what ctech is doing, or lean on one’s in-group to do what they are doing. Without some actual work and substance ctech looks an awful lot like my parents on Facebook, and they get chewed out too.
ctech wrote:
Why should patriotism be part of anyone’s job? I might make an exception for the military, but beyond that, no boss should have the power to compel someone into any patriotic display.
For some reason, the United States is looking more and more like North Korea these days.
@35 cartomancer: The platform belongs to the disgustingly wealthy corporate vampires, but no one is saying they can’t do any number of awareness protests, but why should they be able to highjack a platform that is not theirs. The platform was highjacked and there were consequences.
@37 Brony, Social Justice Cenobite: I never said protest the way I want, but taking advantage of a platform at the expense of the platform is wrong. Obviously, I am right because he doesn’t have a job. I don’t have a “way he should protest”. I just know there have to better ways. You know, ways in which he doesn’t get fired and where he actually helps people.
Notice the transition in argument, now that ctech has failed to demonstrate why the existence of unknown bad actors necessarily conflicts with a desire to boycott known bad actors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States
Let’s see, some long-running boycotts of mine: McBarf’s since the mid- / late-1980s, Nestlé since earlier than that, Japan Airlines also from around that time. Starting more recently Audi / VW / Porsche, and anything Israeli (BDS). Also farcebork and twitter (albeit I will sometimes link to them — I should stop doing that).
Used to boycott apartheid S.Africa, but that certainly has ended.
Excepting maybe Japan Airlines, every one listed has real effects in that I either have but no longer will (e.g., Audi) or realistically could but will not (e.g., farcebork) use their “products” / “services”.
I have the sinking suspicion that Chik-fil-A gained more customers than they lost. While I and most of my friends would never darken their doorway, nor Hobby Lobby’s, etc., I have noticed that since the uproar and subsequent suggestion of a boycott, the lines at the Chik-Fil-As in airports are the longest of any, And it’s all fairly obvious Deplorables, middle-aged men with ponytails in their Harley Davidson shirts and old blue-haired ladies and women in matching pink sweatpants and sweatshirts with spangled cursive across the chest saying “Classy”. Eating at Chik-fil-A once a day is kinda like rigging your truck with a coal burner, you do it because it will piss liberals off.
Whereas I don’t think it would really occur to liberals to flock to a really shitty fast food joint for lunch every day just because the owner is a gay atheist who donated to Bernie’s campaign. You’d go because they were a cut above BK or Taco Bell, maybe had a decent salad on the menu/
But I bet Papa John’s gets an uptick in sales because of this, people ordering from them instead of Pizza Hut or the local Greek diner because hey, he hates uppity n*ggers as much as I do! I mean, that’s the core reason anyone who voted for Trump did so, sharing his overt hatred of minorities. So Papa John’s abortus on toast with a MAGA hat would do a libruhl-hatin’ Deplorable feel oh so full of White Nationalism. And shitty pizza.
Caine @6
I had the same moment. Hopefully the owner isn’t so garbage, their pizzas are actually good.
ctech, #41
No. The platform doesn’t belong to the vampires. It belongs to everyone involved – the viewers, the participants, everyone affected by it. The corporate interests do not own the players. They do not own the public space or the conversation. Just because the vampires make money off of what happens in sport that doesn’t entitle them to manage the conversation that surrounds it.
@40 ck, the Irate Lump:
Seriously? It is the same for the NFL as Ricky Bobby having to say “thank you calling Joe’s Pizza. We are pizza”. The NFL probably doesn’t really care if the display of patriotism is part of the game or not. However, they realize most of their customer base is patriotic. The government doesn’t compel people to do that. That is the guideline for a private company. Trump made a comment because he is a politician and his same “customer base” is patriotic. The people have all the power. They want the employees to stand for the national anthem and if those people “pay” the salaries then I would make my employees stand and it did boil down to, “do you want a paycheck?” Kaepernick said “No”. The NFL is the not the government and a boss should be able to absolutely compel you into doing whatever it is they want to pay you for or do whatever is good for business.
@43 chigau : I completely agree. I don’t even have to go to that link. There’s also other allegations of suppression by where name duplicates are tossed. Now, that is something to protest. Needs to be investigated and fixed.
ctech, #38
But you said you are against the players protesting. You’re not the NFL.
So why is that?
ctech, #38
Wrong again. An oppressed minority can’t out-vote the huge percentage of white voters who vote against their human rights.
You can squirm and twist all you want. The responsibility lies with the class who is causing the oppression. Like in all human rights battles in the past.
ctech,
What specifically is it that you find unreasonable about the players’ demands?
https://sports.yahoo.com/memo-4-players-sent-nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-030818178.html
ctech: “Oppressed black people want to make a change? Get to the polls.”
You mean the polls where they are being purged from voter rolls and being asked to provide forms of ID they do not possess…or the polls where they are forbidden from voting because they were convicted on frivolous charges of drug possession or “resisting arrest” for asking what they are being charged with?
@47 cartomancer: The NFL owns NFL football and the broadcasts. The platform is not owned by all involved. Sorry, I think you are thinking the ambiguous “platform”. Not platform like politician’s platform but platform like soapbox. The protest has no real declared policy. The NFL is a raised surface to make the voices louder. If they want to self-destruct then no one is stopping them. The idea of the power of the players assoc is that they have to call the bluff that the rich vampires won’t chew off their own leg when bargaining.
However, it would open the door for another football league to come in but the CBA and other policies will be completely different at startup in order to protect from the same fate. Probably Trump if he fixes his mistakes from his last football league failure.
ctech: “The protest has no real declared policy.”
That is a lie. Read the link I posted. Several players have presented their goals quite eloquently. Or does that surprise you given the melanin content of their skin?
ctech, #53
I don’t bloody care how the capitalists think the pie is sliced – this is a public event that affects thousands of people and by sheer dint of participation in it people have a voice. The players are a part of this. The viewers are a part of this. I couldn’t give two tiny fucks what the capitalists believe their money entitles them to.
Stop thinking about the issue like a capitalist and start seeing it like an actual ethical human being.
ctech:
I’m sure this will amaze you, cupcake, but I research. Having this newfangled internets thing makes that easy! My money has not darkened the door of a Walmart for decades; same goes for Hobby Lobby and other stores. I had to give up a couple of places prior to the last election, because I perused a corporate campaign donations list. If I’m unaware of bad actors, yes, it’s likely a dollar or three of mine might go their way, but that has absolutely nothing to do with being a conscientious consumer. Now, Papa John’s? Don’t have to worry, not so much as a penny of mine has ever bent in that direction.
As always, your determination to be a willfully ignorant dumbass is not serving you well. You refuse to take on board what people are telling you. I already loathe the jingoistic crap spread all over uStates, and the sports protests are about as respectful as you can be at a protest. People who choose to get all upset about it are declaring that people of colour aren’t important, who the fuck cares about racism and homicidal piece of shit cops, because godsdamnit, jingoistic bullshit is going on!
Me:
That also includes “stores” like Amazon. I don’t have anything to do with them, either.
@52 a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
I didn’t really see any demands.
That is great they are asking for support from their employer. They should have started with that. However, I can see several things in those policies that an employer may not want to be part of. For example, expunging criminal records. So, if a guy commits a robbery when he is 20 and now he is seeking employment from me and he is 45 then I run a background check and it comes back clean because they want old or minor offenses expunged. Then, if he robs my store is that fair to me. It is sad but that is why you don’t rob someone… ever. If I would have known he was convicted of robbery 25 years ago then I wouldn’t have hired him. I’m sure I have a stack of resumes. Companies probably don’t care about juveniles with life sentences but personally I’d have to see numbers on that because crimes that will get you life without parole are usually terribly egregious or heinous so there is a reason that a child is getting tried as an adult.
In the end, they do not need the NFL’s support to continue to do what they list they are doing in that letter. The NFL is not oppressing them and they are hurting the wrong people.
I am not blissfully ignorant and realistically I would say there is enough concern of voter intimidation or oppression that it needs a full scale investigation. However, it is not that hard to get a driver’s license or state issued ID card and I don’t think convicts lose voting rights for misdemeanors. This varies by state and so some states felons never lose their voting rights. That is something an ex-felon may want to look at once they are free and can move somewhere else. I got family that has moved for tax purposes, jobs, and all sorts of benefits. Why not voting rights? So, while I can feel some sympathy for their situation, my sympathy only goes so far.
@55 cartomancer: NFL is not a public event. Viewership is paid. You purchase a ticket and go to the game or you watch advertisements and/or pay your cable bill.
ctech, #59
It is public in that it takes place in the public space, what is said there is a matter of public record and large swathes of the public participate in it. It feeds into the public conversation. It has an impact on society. Thus it is a public event.
Again, stop thinking like a capitalist, in terms of pounds, shillings and pence and nothing else, and start seeing that there is a much wider and more important world of common social existence to take into account.
@56 Caine: Good for you cupcake. Consider me amazed.
ctech, you are lying. You clearly have not even bothered to look at the link I posted. It is one thing to fool yourself. It is another thing to swallow all the right-wing talking points about all dem uppity black folk. You are a tool
ctech,
I don’t doubt that you are amazed at the information Caine can find. It’s not the sort of thing one usually at sources you rely on (e.g. Faux News and Not-so-Breitbart.
@62 a_ray_in_dilbert_space: I read the memo and the article appears to be from Sept 2017, quite a long time after the protests. I also follow football a lot so I know what is going on. I question if you’ve even read your own link.
Yes, the players knocked on the NFL’s door and asked if they wanted to buy some girl scout cookies and the NFL said we good on cookies.
ctech, have you ever visited a news site other than Not-so-Breitbart or Faux News (or Beltway Pundit…)? The league was actually fairly supportive of the agenda–that is why Jerry Jones is busy pounding sand.
Look, if you aren’t interested in facts, that is one thing, but lying about it…that’s a sickness.
You’ve been gazing into the mirror again, haven’t you?
It helps if you open your eyes when reading. Unless of course you don’t want to see what’s in front of you, as appears to be your case
I came across this line that if you don’t or can’t act against all injustice then you shouldn’t act against any (or it is futile to do so) as a member of the Anti-Apartheid Movement decades ago – although I admit, not even the apartheid apologists had the gall to include injustice you don’t even know about. It was dishonest crap then, and it’s dishonest crap now. And your motivations are abundantly clear – always, your first instinct is to side with the powerful. It’s utterly contemptible.
ctech:
Oh, I do consider you amazed, you are quite the dimwit. It’s a pity, because you choose to be that way. Now, I wasn’t looking for a pat on the back, you fuckin’ idiot. You need to acknowledge just how fucking wrong you are – just because you choose to be a dumbass doesn’t mean the same applies to everyone else.
ctech:
It’s not so much what you might or not accomplish (but hey, in those rare cases where it does some good it does some good).
It’s about who YOU **CHOOSE** to be.
You’ve made it rather plain what you choose to be.
If you don’t mind I’ll make my own choices.
(For that matter, whether the hell you mind or not).
— TWZ
@65 a_ray_in_dilbert_space: “Fairly Supportive”. Alright.
@66 KG. No, you and the other emotional losers on this site keep thinking the meaning is one in the same. This is the discussion I’m having with Caine whom is sure most of his money is making its way to only the most upstanding of businessmen and women. You are acting like just because the Borg says resistance is futile that the Federation should have just closed up shop. Two different situations. Deciding to not watch “American Beauty” because of Kevin Spacey is just meaningless. At this point the Walton’s don’t need you or Caine to ever step foot in their store again and if by some chance your “futile” little protest worked then the only people you are hurting are…….hint: not the waltons.
@57 Caine — do you use any other online retailers? I’m from a huge over-breeding Irish family, and often need to buy 35 or 40 gifts. The amount of time and money it used to take to go to malls, schlep the shit home, find appropriate boxes, gift-wrap them, then find appropriate mailing containers or protective wrapping, then go to the Post Office, then send them off, half of them probably with express shipping rates because I waited too long….Amazon was the greatest thing that ever happened to my Decembers. Any recommended alternatives?
ctech, you have that metaphor with the borg backwards as YOU are the one telling US that resistance is futile in our efforts to avoid giving known bad people our money. YOU are the one saying that protesting is futile. You are the one stamping your feet at our attempts to be better.
So fucking piss off already. We refuse to accept resistance as futile. Go stand in the corner and whine to yourself you goddamn turd.
anbheal… maybe Etsy? I’d have to do more research into that.
@68 ColonelZen: Sorry, I have about 4 or 5 people all with different topics. You’d have to be more specific as to what exactly you are talking about.
Aww. Does Pharyngula haz a house troll again? Takes me back.
I believe in freedom. You’re free to choose what you wish to be. Including stupid.
— TWZ
ctech is a typical glibertarian. Assumes the talking points of the rich and powerful without doing even the most cursory research (e.g. like reading what NFL players are actually asking for) and then whines when those who have done their homework diagnose his ignorance.
@ctech
Assertions rejected as with the first set. If any of this was obvious it would not take this much text. Back to the mirror.
Seems to. Quality seems low, however: Not too entertaining (although that is a matter of individual preferences), wildly inconsistent, and mostly-predictable. On the other hand, literate and does a good line in goalpost-moving. Might not be a cretinist, but is apparently a magic sky faerie botherer. No idea about teh flud. Unless I’m getting the recent ones mixed-up, known to favor nuking the planet. Hasn’t — as far as I am aware — expressed a position on baby whales. A exercise chew-toy — good for keeping teeth sniny — but not one that goes ding ding GOATS ON FIRE!
@71 Rowan vet-tech: I’m not whining about it. You guys are whining. The metaphor was to a different situation of combating injustice. Not buying something because you dislike the owner which is childish. It is the same as the nitwit that went to a Colts game and then left or any other person that stops watching football or supporting their team because of the anthem protest. I don’t like the anthem protest. I think it is a poor attempt at a protest that has caused more harm than good but that is my opinion and I am entitled to that but I have not stopped watching football. It means so little to football that I figured they would get it figured out. I didn’t give a shit if it continued or ended. In fact, I usually take my pre-game shit during the kneeling. So, ultimately you are okay with not shopping at a store if you dislike something about it but not for other people to do the same thing when you disagree with their reasons.
I am saying that eating Papa johns pizza does not make you better or worse person and using the criteria that I am only going to buy services from “good” people is stupid.
@70 anbheal: Why wouldn’t you use Amazon or even walmart.com? Most of those are marketplaces so you are not buying from Bezos or Waltons. They help small businesses with fulfillment. Sure Amazon and Walmart get a percentage but maybe there are some really “good” retailers that rely on moving their products through those websites. So, who are you really hurting by not shopping including yourself if it makes your decembers easier?
This has been a lot of my “realistic” point about not eating Papa johns. For example, let’s say all the liberal nitwits on this site and everywhere decide not to use Amazon anymore. Amazon sees a small dip in revenue. Bezos is still worth billions but a small family owned toy store saw a 35% decrease in online sales and closed their small brick and mortar storefront and no longer donates to youth services, local soup kitchens, or toys for tots. Hey, at least Bezos didn’t get another dime from you. Sleep well.
All that twisting and turning to avoid anything the protestors are saying. Coward, just like my parents.
me@78: wildly inconsistent, and mostly-predictable → wildly self-inconsistent, and mostly-predictable
(Apologies for proofreading fubar.)
@81 blf – it’s okay that part isn’t what made your post unreadable.
But, all of you shouldn’t talk about ColonelZen like that.
@75 ColonelZen: And you are free to be a loser. Congrats. Let me guess…. you play just for fun, give trophies to last place, and your last wife left you for a woman? Some things are absolutely results driven.
@ctech
Also as far as I can see you have exclusively been telling people here how and where people should be protesting. You don’t give a shit about why they are protesting. That’s close enough to “protest the way I want!” The only one you represent is you.
ctech #83
That is pretty close to, if not over, the line.
anbheal:
For what you do? No. We don’t do the whole giftmas thing, so that doesn’t come up at all. A lot depends on what kind of things you’re looking to buy. Amazon is an aggregator, not an actual store, so you can usually find what you’re looking for outside of Amazon, but that would be much more work than the one stop shopping biz. If you like finding more unusual things for people, check Etsty, Red Bubble, and other online malls which allow artists and artisans to sell their wares. Think Geek is always a great place for all manner of awesome stuff. If you spend some time just buying an item here, an item there, you’d probably end up with a nice stockpile for when you need it.
Generally speaking, I buy local, and for stuff I can’t get local, I search out ‘local’ owned shops, no matter where in the world, rather than big box alternatives. The one exception to that is art supply, for that, I have to go with a major dealer.
@84 Brony, Social Justice Cenobite: Stating that protesting during your work hours is a bad idea is hardly saying I want people to protest the way I want. I’ve also said that not buying Papa John’s pizza is a worthless protest. Neither of those is saying how and where people should protest. I went to see a movie the other day. It sucked. I said it sucked. I am not telling the studio how to make a movie by saying the movie sucked.
ctech:
The fact that you consider that to be an insult demonstrates clearly just how much of a flaming doucheweasel you are, along with being a willful fuckwit. Give up on trying to insult people, you suck at it, just like everything else.
Also, ctech, why are you assuming Colonel Zen is a man?
@85 chigau : Why? because it is insulting. How is that any different than the multitude of insults that I’ve been bombarded with.
I’ve had 2 posts to GeneralZen. He posted something about me choosing to be something. I asked him to clarify because I had several different topics that his post could have related to but he responded with the implication that I am choosing to be stupid. This is not to mention even the insults directed towards me going farther back.
What the fuck is an “emotional loser”? Emotion is part of all thought, even reason and logic are emotion driven. I guess this sort of incompetant garbage is what happens when you want to win and you can’t actually deal with reality.
@ctech
That’s exactly saying to protest the way you want. By doing it during the game they get more social impact. Impact you would deny them because you don’t give a shit about them, you only give a shit about you.
@ctech
You just say it’s worthless to avoid certain businesses you incompetant. That’s all you do, say it. So it’s all you. Just you. No reason to accept what you have to say, and no reason at all to think you care about anything but limiting the effectiveness of protests.
Your whining is evidence that it’s a good choice than a bad one. Clearly it’s got your attention.
I’m still trying to understand in what sense football players are “working” (cf. #25) while the national anthem plays. Keep cracking that whip, ctech; and one day, if you believe it hard enough, it might transform into something other than a meaningless display by a bunch of corporate drones. There might be some Real Patriotism™ that the cameras capture while you take your shit, not just something that is supposed to set the mood for selling tires and potato chips. But whatever it is, it does seem that they manage to get the work of playing football done, whether or not they stand during the music. Perhaps you don’t realize this, you know, because of the shitting.
#79:
Of course, you obviously pulled this out of your ass, as you do with nearly everything else. It doesn’t really seem right to call it a strawman, as it doesn’t rise that level of coherence or responsiveness. It comes out of nowhere as conclusion, just another one of your bullshit assertions.
Liberals everywhere? That would be a very large dip.
<blockquote
@75 ColonelZen: And you are free to be a loser. Congrats. Let me guess…. you play just for fun, give trophies to last place, and your last wife left you for a woman? Some things are absolutely results driven.
Giggle. Nope. Just so you know.
Wrong in every particular. Married once for almost 35 years now and mostly happily and seems going strong, grown kids with no major problems, middle class suburbia, with a steady job … born and raised in god’s country and walk there unafrad (however saddened if vexed by the self obliviousness of the inhabitants) visiting relatives or traveling. I’d probably be a MAGAtt myself if I hadn’t been cursed with a thirst for education. Only fly in the ointment is this getting older stuff, which I suppose is better than the alternative.
I’m generally satisfied with my choices. Wish I had done and could do better sometimes, but have no reason to stop trying to do better. To be better. There quiet satisfaction in knowing you’ve actually worked at being the best you can, even knowing that sometimes you have (and will!) fall short.
We can *choose* at the very least where and with whom we will break bread.
— TWZ
@89 Caine: I’m not progressive enough to use other pronouns. Usually a name is gender oriented but there are gender neutral names like shane or ashley that it can make hard to pinpoint. It is not disrespect as the left would jump right out and start screaming. I could be wrong but I got a 45/45 shot since 10% may be neither. I gave the nod towards “man” because of the use of a military term. Could a woman be a General? Absolutely. Is it common for them to use military ranks in their username? I don’t think so. We are not given gender so we have to assume based on that. When people on this site respond to me or talk about me they use “he”. But my username is ctech. Are all people in the tech field male? It seems they would have more in common with James Damore than they think or maybe they just picked a gender for me and rolled with it and it doesn’t mean anything.
You appear to be attempting to use another low-life tactic by the left to try to label someone as racist or sexist based on some obscure comment.
Ctech:
That’s quite enough of that. You get a 24 hour time out: don’t post here again until Friday evening, and then do so with a bit more class, if that’s possible. And if you choose to post again before then, you will be banned permanently.
@93Brony, Social Justice Cenobite : I watch football and have continued to watch football in light of the protest. If I was like people on this site then I should stop watching football because of the protest, get an RMA for my Brady jersey, and cancel my Sunday Ticket. You clearly do not have a grasp on what we are discussing because you are a spaz. You are emotional and you are a loser. Hope that clears things up.
Oops. I’ll assume you didn’t get my message before you post that last bon mot. However, this is not good: Refusal to respect another person’s choice of pronouns, or mocking that choice with absurd pronouns, will be grounds for an insta-ban of anyone who is that regressive.
It never fails. I try to be nice, and of course the troll ignores my demands and goes ahead and comments.
Bye, ctech.
I shouldn’t even bother to be nice.
And projection. Forgot it from my previous list (apologies).
I’m very willing to bet nothing significant will have changed for ctech in the next 24 hours. It presumably took some decades for all that shit to pile up, and reversing it is probably not going to be a very quick process either.
It is not just pizza he sells. We end up getting some prepared refrigerated food from a local supermarket. My roommates father volunteers for a homeless shelter and collects the food, they make him take some food they can not use since he is not paid. We keep getting these really good green chili burritos, Papa John’s makes them at the place the pre-cut their veggies. Not going to toss since they are free and I am not rich but it still irks.
Well… I cross-posted with #100. Indeed, PZ, you shouldn’t have bothered.
With respect to emotions…
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/09/18/emotion-is-not-the-enemy-of-reason/
I don’t care if it’s common to hear about “emotional arguments”, it’s still bullshit and nothing but another fallacious reason to avoid what someone else is saying. If a particular emotion is driving something that thing can be rational or irrational, logical or illogical. Anger, fear, I don’t care, people still need to be able to show why the thing is unreasonable or illogical. Feeling is only one kind of content and textually running from it is a sign of weakness I’m happy to exploit when that other person is put in public getting into people’s business with nothing but feeling of their own. Tie some objects to that feeling or remain useless and a hinderance.
And ctech the asswipe disappears with only a very very baaad smell left behind.
Well that was vaguely disappointing. He didn’t even bother to respond to my suggestion that there’s more to the world than capitalistic notions of ownership. I go out for a few hours to the local charity pub quiz and he goes and gets banned for being an arsehole. Still, at least it smells less like bigotry in here now. And I do have five giant toblerones for my effort, so I can’t really complain.
Dammit, I missed the troll. No one seems to have picked up on my favourite shit-stain they left behind, @48:
Seriously, they actually said that. Go back and check if you don’t believe me.
Holy fuck, even Harvey Weinstein hasn’t tried that on as a justification.
Colin J, #108,
Yes, I noticed that. It’s part of what I was referring to when I told him he needs to stop thinking in such a narrowly capitalistic way. But I probably should have called it out directly.
It is quite amazing how his entire response to this issue is to put himself in the shoes of an employer who wants to fire people. Not in the shoes of someone whose community is suffering injustice – his knee-jerk sympathies are for the capitalist exploiter.
Coln J@108, Yeeish. (And yeah, I somehow missed that — trollshite overload, perhaps?) Good catch.
Even allowing for some reasonable unstated exceptions — two examples: Can’t compel to do illegal things; or Compel to not do legal things the boss doesn’t like (e.g., join a union, take a lunch break, whistleblow, …) — that’s remarkably obtuse. Comically obtuse.
By that “logic”, e.g., a former boss should have been able to compel me to drive to work rather than bicycle. Why? There was no safe & secure outdoor bicycle parking at the site, so the cyclists were bringing their bicycles into their offices. (The offices were large and, as confirmed by the site’s facilities supervisor, there was no fire (obstacle) risk.) Bicycles-in-offices annoyed the individual who happened to be my manager. That person seriously wanted bicycles banned, which (given the undisputed lack of bicycle parking) for many people would mean driving to work. The problem was resolved by the VP in charge of the facility, who arranged to have secure outdoor parking constructed. (I suppose the now-departed obtuse one might have argued that it was the VP who was the “boss” here. In which case, why not the CEO? Or shareholders? (Of which I was one!))
cartomancer, are you still around? If so, in your view, is The Storm Before the Storm worth buying/reading?
I don’t get why Americans have State Symbol Worshipping Ceremonies at non-international matches in the first place.
Halcyon Dayz @112
For the same reason the US has its children recite the pledge of allegiance. It’s an authoritarian loyalty oath, just lazier.
@100 PZ — and it could have been a very entertaining thread.
Wait, I expressed that poorly, an entertaining thread without the troll derailment.
Salty Current, #111,
I have not come across this book before. Looks like it might be entertaining, but the advertising puff on the website seems (perhaps understandably, given that it’s advertising puff) to be a little overblown.
The general thrust it presents – of a Rome whose Republican political institutions and cultural mores were transformed and stretched to breaking point by the demands and returns of Empire – is pretty much on the money. That’s not a terribly controversial point nowadays. Though I didn’t like the bit about how the Romans were uniquely committed to participatory government and the peaceful transfer of power before the 2nd century BC. That might make for a more dramatic contrast with the tumult of the Gracchan period and beyond, but it’s really not true. We have much less historical evidence for Roman history before the 2nd century BC than the embarrassment of riches for the first century, but it is fairly clear that Rome’s early history was awkward, tumultuous and riven with enough civil strife to rival any Greek city state. The whole Conflict of the Orders in the 5th and 4th centuries BC to give but the most obvious 200 year long example. It’s not a characterisation most Romans would have recognised either – by the 1st century BC the whole culture and mythology surrounding their city’s origins stressed the key elements of strife, violence and fratricide at the core of who they were.
But I don’t know how much of the book hinges on this artificial contrast. It may very well hit the right notes, and I can’t see anything in the promotional stuff that seems outright false or distorted. The period is certainly an interesting and important one, and often overlooked in the face of the much better known period directly after starring Pompey, Caesar, Octavian and the final end of the Republic. The decades following the fall of Carthage and Corinth in 146 were indeed pivotal ones.
…so nice of you to join us..
cartomancer @ #116,
Thanks. Just going by what I’ve read elsewhere, it does seem the advertising might exaggerate some of the book’s arguments to catch the attention of USians. I think I’ll check it out.