Would you believe that the Twin Cities branch and the Morris campus of the University of Minnesota are having major seminars in the same week? Next Wednesday, UMTC will be hosting Milo Yiannopoulos and Christina Hoff Sommers on feminism (try not to laugh); on Friday, UMM will be hosting a Philosophy of Biology symposium, with Marlene Zuk, Alan Love, Emilie Snell-Rood, and many other highly qualified speakers.
Is it nice or fair of me to compare the two institutions on the basis of an official university event and a crackpot group of students? No, it is not, but you know how institutional rivalries are.
Anyway, I’m very much looking forward to this one. What’s particularly perfect about it is that it’s being held at the same time as my first year course, where we’re talking about evolution. Guess who gets to skip out on teaching that day and instead send all his students to listen to some extremely appropriate expertise?
As for the rest of you, you could attend both, since they’re two days apart. If you’re in the Twin Cities, though, I’ll understand if you decide to flee the stench early and come out to fabulous Morris for an extra day or two.
Milo and Christina giving a talk on feminism. The mind boggles.
Thanks for the heads up about these events.
I would go to see Christina Hoff Sommers in a heartbeat (oops! I hope that is not ableist).
I have not had the opportunity to read your other posts, but I am curious as to why you seem to suggest that her being a speaker on feminism is a joke.
Is it that you do not think it is a topic worth discussing (feminism), or do you not think that hers is a voice to be heard? Genuinely curious.
If it were anyone other than Christina I would be at the Bio Symposium, however I have an enormous amount of respect for her abilities as a communicator and educator. Whether one agrees with her viewpoints or not, I think it could be a tremendously rewarding experience to hear her speak and answer questions.
And be honest. The Philosophy of Biology? Let’s not pretend like one of these events is going to be some sort of serious science, while the other is a joke. Neither of these events would be as meaningful as a first year lesson about Evolution taught by a gifted teacher.
theamateurphilosophysicist,
Why would that be ableist?
I’d never speak in PZ’s name, but I’m going to guess that PZ is starting to be a bit skeptical about feminism and unsure about the necessity of debating the topic. Genuinely honest opinion.
I’m encountering this term everywhere, but I’m not really sure what it means. What is a “communicator”? I communicate information, sometimes quite important information on a daily basis. Am I a communicator?
Why?
Beatrice,
Why would that be ableist?
_______
I had just recently read a blog about ableist terms (SMH) and I guess it was on my brain. I wouldn’t want to trigger or offend anyone with a pacemaker I guess?_______
I’d never speak in PZ’s name, but I’m going to guess that PZ is starting to be a bit skeptical about feminism and unsure about the necessity of debating the topic. Genuinely honest opinion.
_______
I mostly agree with that, although I am beginning to be concerned about some actions taken on campuses in the name of feminism (i.e. safe spaces, the use of terms like ‘cis male’ to somehow counter an idea, regardless of its content)._______
I’m encountering this term everywhere, but I’m not really sure what it means. What is a “communicator”? I communicate information, sometimes quite important information on a daily basis. Am I a communicator?
_______
I am not using the term in any way other than its meaning. It is not a title. Of course you are a communicator. Anyone expressing ideas, concepts, information is a communicator. The importance of the information communicated has no bearing on how effectively it is communicated. I find her to be very skilled at effectively and efficiently making the salient points known, while at the same time addressing challenges to those points. Or in other words, “she gone done and talked good with words and stuff.”_______
Why?(well taught evolution class better than either of these symposiums)
_______
This being more of a personal preference, but IMO an engaging teacher introducing first year students to evolution can have a greater opportunity to intrigue and inspire students in the field of biology, and sciences in general. Attending this symposium on the philosophy of Biology, or Feminism, while entertaining (perhaps not?), I don’t believe it has the same ability to inspire the next generation of biologists/scientists._______
Thanks for the comments. Just joined yesterday. Subscribe to my blog :)
https://theamateurphilosophysicistblog.wordpress.com/
-TAPP
At the UMM symposium, say hello for me to Ruth Shaw, who did a postdoctoral fellowship with me. And is well worth hearing.
Simple. She calls herself a feminist, but shows none of the actual attributes of a feminist, like working for equal pay, equal results, stifling sexual harassment, etc. She essential seems to believe that the present status quo brings true equality to women (appearance of equal opportunity), despite conclusive evidence of male privilege and micro (or even macro) aggressions against women are keeping women back from areas like STEM. This has been talked about here for many years. Search the blog for other threads where she is mentioned.
That is why she is a shill on Faux News, etc, which is prima facie evidence that she is only a pretend feminist, not a real one.
Oy, theamateurphilosophysicist, you’re trying too hard. Just say what you think, instead of putting on this disingenuous act, so we can get the banning over with.
Was sealion.wordpress.com already taken?
I see I wasn’t the only one thinking sealion.
The AmateurPhilosophysicist:
Ugh.
Here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers
That’s why we laugh at Sommers.
Enjoy.
I am fascinated as to how one could agree with the assessment that she is a good educator and communicator if one doesn’t think that what she is communicating and educating people with comports with reason or reality. If we were to go down that route, I would have to go on to admit that Ken Ham is a good educator and communicator. Sure, I may not agree with his “viewpoints”, but he sure does “educate” and “communicate” damn well.
Shaking your head about the phrase “ableist terms”? The picture begins to be painted…..
Yup, you got the typical anti-feminist seething contempt for the same list of words that you all love to bring up in order to mock.
Snidely bring up “social justice” or “privilege” and I’ve got Bingo.
And of course, this all explains why you approve of Sommers so much. I doubt her work for conservative think tanks and alliance with Gamergate will bother you much after all.
Yikes, I feel like a walked into something here. Um, please don’t ban me (I guess)? Not sure why I would be banned, nor why you would call me a sea lion (had to look that one up; love the version that means lesbian cougar, thanks screechymonkey).
Anyway PZ, I did say what I think. Not sure why you are so sensitive?
I found your post because it is listed under science, and I love science (a lot like you do I imagine).
I commented on your post because I was recently introduced to Christina Hoff Sommers via her videos, and while I do not necessarily agree with everything she says, I do find her to be an interesting speaker on the topic of feminism. She sometimes presents points of views that I had not considered, or provides new context to familiar ideas, making them worth reviewing.
Now perhaps here is where the confusion happens. I really enjoy learning (a lot – you could say I am an epistemophile). I really enjoy listening to other peoples points of view on topics I am interested in, especially if they are different than my own. I do this with no ego or emotional attachment to my ideas. I am only emotionally attached to being correct, so I will happily discard an idea and adopt a new one if it is shown to be more accurate than my current viewpoint. This is a great way to discover new ideas and knowledge. I like to challenge new ideas (and I like and expect others to do the same to me).
I do not do this simply to be contrary, but to create opportunities for growth, where either my point of view will be altered by new information or a well reasoned argument, or my point of view might be reinforced and I better understand my own position on an issue. I don’t find much opportunity to learn new things when engaging with those who already share my viewpoint, and so I do look for opportunities to to be exposed to different, and yes even conflicting ideas than my own.
Either way, it seems to me that one great way to further our own understanding of what life, the universe and beyond has to offer, is to expose ourselves to as many different viewpoints as possible and actively engage with new ideas in order to test their veracity, challenge their logic and determine how they fit, or don’t fit, into our own ever evolving worldview.
I have no idea how my comment on basically nothing, albeit a little tongue in cheek for entertainment purposes, got us to this point. I mean, damn PZ, I subscribed to your feed because I saw that you were a Biology prof at university and thought that would be a great subscription to have. Your blog is called Pharyngula, that is absolutely brilliant. I even tried to compliment you at the end of my post suggesting the students (not necessarily you) could have a more fulfilling experience learning about evolution from you (having assumed you to be creative and a little tongue in cheek yourself with your blog name).
Anyway this has gone much longer than I imagined. Do what you must, ban me/don’t ban me, there is no shortage of intelligent people whom I can follow and enjoy, who hopefully won’t turn my FTB experience into Bizarro world and start threatening to ban me right off the bat for no reason.
Alternatively you can subscribe to my blog as well and perhaps in our differences we both learn a little. Me more about biology, you more about how to manage stress (because whatever is going on PZ, we both know it has nothing to do with my post).
Thanks for the comment, enjoy the symposium.
-TAPP
https://theamateurphilosophysicistblog.wordpress.com/
Yes, let’s subscribe to TAPP’s blog!
Two whole posts.
First post: “IGNORANCE IS A PRIVILEGE, NOT A RIGHT.”
Entirety of post:
Latest post: “GOOD REASONS FOR MAINTAINING ABLEIST LANGUAGE IN OUR VOCABULARY”
Does this still count towards Bingos?
Side note: Exposure Therapy Does Not Work That Way
Hell will reliably be determined to have frozen over first. You don’t think. Your idiocy prevents that.
Please, TAPP, and other clueless gits like them, for serious: don’t go around intentionally triggering people who have suffered traumatic experiences, thinking that the APA has given you carte blanche to do so, because “the best method to help people get through traumatic events” is “exposure”. Because that “exposure” and working through of emotions is done in a controlled environment with a professional therapist. It is a therapy. It is not done by some random yahoo who cannot be bothered to slightly alter their vocabulary in order to avoid forcing someone into reliving traumatic events but thinks it is okay, because “sticks and stones” and because of an article they read once. What you are arguing is equivalent to saying that it isn’t unethical to go around cutting people at random because surgery exists. No. Just fucking no.
Hi Anteprepo,
Thanks for the comment. I will be certain to extend to you the same courtesy you have shown me.
I’l try and go slowly here because you have done a wonderful job making it clear that you’re not ready for the adult table (oooh, I see it now, being rude is so fun. It makes me feel tough too. Why don’t you run upstairs and tell your mom how you put me in my place).
Ken Ham is not a good communicator or educator. He is actually a pretty terrible communicator. Did you even read my post? The topic has nothing to do with how well someone communicates.
This is a difference between us. I can listen to someone speak, and even if I do not agree with them, I can often still find value in their point of view, or even just in their delivery. Does Ken Ham have anything to offer? Of course not. I’ve listened to him speak. Not only are his ideas ridiculous and contrary to the evidence, but his speaking/debating skills are about on par with a spoon. There is nothing of value there.
I understand you disagree with CHS, but to compare her to Ken Ham is disingenuous and you know it.
I find it amusing that you have me pigeonholed already based on my one short comment, so let me elaborate. My gender, sexual orientation, hair colour, eye colour, IQ, favorite shampoo, country of origin or religious belief should never be a factor that is considered when one is determining the validity of a point I make or an idea I put forward.
Can you not see that? Just because I am a “cisgendered, heterosexual, white haired, blue eyed, 163 IQ’d, Biolage using, gorgeous Canadian athesit”, that should not change how my idea is received or considered. Much like my opinion of your ideas (got to admit pretty poor) would not change if I knew you were a man or a women. Why would it? It would change if I found out you were only 10 years old though. Can you see the difference?
I do not seeth at words. I think it is ridiculous that people think there is a value and need for a term like cisgendered. If I meet someone, and right off the bat they make a point to let me know that they are or are not cisgendered (or they ask me if I am), my first thought is “Why do I care? ” It is not important to me how your gender sorted out unless you want me to treat you differently because of it? (I assume not, but believe so).
What is important to me is what you bring to a conversation, a friendship, a potluck. Not what gender you identify with. Why would anyone care, unless you want them to, so that you can feel special.
As for gamergate…I don’t really care that much as I am not a gamer, nor do I really care whether or not there is corruption amongst game reviewers, or too many butts.
As far as the use or non-use of terms that are considered ableist, I will admit it I have yet to hear an argument for it that has changed my opinion. When I am told that a word such as ‘crazy’ should never be used in any context because it might trigger or be offensive to someone with a mental illness my first thought is WTF? Seriously? I can’t say crazy because you might suffer from a mental illness and be offended. That is crazy. So yeah, please don’t whine at me about ableist language (check out my blog where I talk more about this topic, help change my mind if I’m wrong).
Instead, take this opportunity to communicate to me why this is something that should be taken seriously and show me how it is a reasonable and beneficial idea and I could very well change my mind. I just haven’t got there yet. The difference between you and I is that I am willing to listen and consider those viewpoints and possibly change my thinking, whereas it seems clear to me that you are not.
And by the way, the fact that you used rationale wiki as a source to show me your point of view immediately put you behind the eight ball. I literally L’dOL when I saw that. Terrible, you ought to know better. I am pretty far from being a conservative. I am a lefty liberal in Canada. Let me repeat that for your comprehension. I live in Canada and I am on the left side of liberalism, so yeah, great call there calling me a conservative.
Thanks again for the comments, subscribe to my blog. I just wrote my first one yesterday about ableist language. Why don’t you read it and comment in a constructive way this time and maybe we can have real dialogue.
–TAPP
https://theamateurphilosophysicistblog.wordpress.com
theamateurphilosophysicist:
Obvious shit-stirring is obvious, that’s how.
(Me, I clicked on your spammed blog link, snickered at its post titles, and stopped wasting my time there forthwith)
Anteprepo, why do you have to dis my blog for only two posts. You see that I started it yesterday right? Sorry if I don’t have enough words for you yet.
Man, my first day on FTB and I am honestly underwhelmed.
You might as well subscribe to my blog so you can track and update each time I post, and then let me know when I have enough posts so that I can talk about it.
Thanks.
TAPP out. (ooh I like that)!
–TAPP
https://theamateurphilosophysicistblog.wordpress.com
Yikes
Today’s just a great day for annoying screeds, apparently.
Also, once more sighing about the “man or woman” thing, but I can’t say I expect anything better from them. Microaggressions gonna microaggress.
Aww, Amateur Phony is “underwhelmed” with us! And after they came here in genuine neutral curiosity, which we know because they said so!
Give it up, AP. We’ve seen the routine a thousand times before, and it isn’t fooling anyone.
Is this the weird part of FTB.
Saying man or woman is a micro-aggression? Please elaborate, as I am not sure how else I should have phrased that. It is a real question. What would be appropriate and why? Is it the lack of inclusivity (not everyone identifies as a man or a woman, therefore it is a micro-aggression)?
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that there will be no answer forthcoming because it seems apparent that you are all either so freaking paranoid about something (?) or no one has any actual interest in dialogue.
I have admitted to not being on side with ableist language, and even wrote about why I am not onside. I am not fiercely sticking to my convictions on this, I just have not been exposed to an argument that has swayed me. No one has provided me with any counter points to possibly change my way of thinking, or offered any discussion points, only insults. I guess that’s how it works here. If I promise to be more rude can I play?
Thanks for the time sink, PZ go ahead and ban me I guess, it is obvious that there is no discussion to be found here, just a bunch of self important, circle jerking wankers who have no desire to share an idea with anyone else who might disagree, or offer any reasons other than ‘annoying screed’ or ‘shit stirrer’. (meh, being rude wears thin after a while).
–TAPP
I’m nonbinary, so I’m mildly annoyed by language that implicitly erases my gender. Hence, microaggression.
What, the screed on your blog? I don’t consider ignoring people’s requests that you not do things that is hurtful to them calm rationality. That’s just being a douche. If “stop doing that because it’s hurtful to me” isn’t enough of a reason, I don’t really mind writing you off as a jerk.
Thank you for the response Vivec. I have never met anyone who is nonbinary. I can see your point. In this case it would have been better to say “my opinion on your idea should not change based on your gender”?
As far as word usage, if there was someone who told me that they personally had an issue with a certain word, that is a different scenario than someone who says don’t use a word (like crazy) because there may be someone who might be offended by the word alone.
Is it comparable to the following situation?
Say I had a friend who had a child abducted. I might watch a Criminal Minds episode that involved a child abduction, alone or with other friends, but I would never consider asking my friend to watch it or discuss it.
Thanks again for the response. I know everyone thinks I’m a troll, but I’m not.
Cheers
–TAPP
Yeah, that’d be my preferred wording.
Well, that’s a different opinion than your “shut up and learn to stop letting people get under your skin” argument you had on your blog. If your opinion has changed between then and now, my apologies.
I don’t think anyone really expects you to know ahead of time that a word is going to make people upset or uncomfortable – slurs aside, because I think it’s very hard to be alive and socially active and not get what’s wrong with throwing around the n-word.
But if someone tells you to avoid using a term that is used abusively towards them as a group, you’re kind of a dick if you go “sucks for you, I’m going to keep using it”.
I would like to congratulate whoever wrote the code for theamateurphilosophysicist.
The best chatbot I have seen so far.
“I do this with no ego or emotional attachment to my ideas.”
Hahahahahahaha. Oh my oh my, this is one little boy who has yet to learn a thing or two about humanity or the internets or life in general.
theamateurphilosophysicist – this is what people are talking about with the “sealion” thing: http://wondermark.com/1k62/
And frankly I think they’re right.
*Points to TAPP * -Oh look, there’s a wolf right there. Yeah, right there, look at it, it thinks it’s hiding-
-No, i’m not a wolf, i’m a sheep. Arhwoooooooooo *growl* *bites sheep* See?-
-Lol, that’s totally a wolf right there-
Someone irked over tone? I seem to recall a saying that someone recently advocated pretty strongly for. What was it? Something about sticks and stones?
I read your post where you declared Christina Hoff Sommers to be a “good communicator and educator” regardless of whether you “agree” with what she “communicates” and “educates” about. My point was that this is completely asinine and a worthless assessment. You only find her to be a “good communicator and educator” because you believe what she is saying. No matter how nonsensical it is. The fact that you can’t tell me WHY Sommers is a good communicator and Ken Ham isn’t, and merely just assert so in both cases, further illustrates my point for me. Actually, caveat:
You do give a reason for thinking Ken Ham isn’t a good communicator/educator. By looking at how illogical everything he says is. Which is exactly was the kind of thing I was saying you would have to ignore, because that is what you are saying we have to ignore about Sommers . In other words, your argument misses the entire reason I brought up the comparison in the first place.
Would you prefer I compare her to Milo instead? Same thing holds: He is a good communicator if you ignore the fact that what he is saying is complete and utter bullshit.
Ummm, what the fuck are you babbling about? Can you not see that you are tilting at straw people?
Cis privilege at its finest.
(Also fucking telling that the only talking about the term “cis” is you. You brought it up yourself to rant about it when it wasn’t a topic any of us talked about before you. That shows a very particular set of interests. Again.)
Okay, let me guess this straight, Master of Logic: You think cisgendered is not a term that should exist, and that it is useless, because you see no reason for including explicit statements of cis/trans identification during introductions to a new person or in conversations at a party? Do you seriously think that we don’t need words and terms to describe things about people, and that such terms are completely useless, if you have difficulty fitting them into chat at a dinner date? The mind fucking boggles.
Here’s the clue for you: What you care about? What you do or do not want to know about a person? It is fucking irrelevant! If other people need a term to identify themselves, even if it is just to describe themselves to themselves, then it is a term that fucking matters.
That bolded statement? That’s a tell. I imagine, for someone not interested in games, that you know a suspiciously large amount about Anita Sarkeesian….
The fact that you haven’t heard anything to change your opinions proves nothing. It would involve trusting in your rationality, your ability to accurately assess the merits of new arguments, and your ability to change your mind instead of stubbornly holding onto the same views and fervently denying anything that would disrupt the comfort of ideological stagnation. You have given no indication that you have such traits and every indication that you prefer the opposite.
Please don’t whine at me about your blog, and then whine at me after I look at it and start mocking it.
Based on what do you reach this conclusion? Show your work.
Please, explain this reaction. I’m sure we would all find it rather illuminating.
Liberal, and yet you still prove my point. It wasn’t to accuse you of being conservative, it was to say exactly what I actually said: that you would be perfectly fine with the fact that Sommers is a conservative shill. And here you are, still being fine with it. Liberal or not. Because, you say, anti-feminism and contempt for social justice isn’t bounded very clearly by political ideology. The Anti-SJW Alliance is where privileged doucebags across the political spectrum can join together to gleefully bash liberals, women, and minorities! Pure ideological diversity, of course.
Have you ever considered that you are very, very shitty at starting dialogues?
I
Hey, did you read my 14? Because that wasn’t an insult. That was a damn fucking important point I made. It could have easily been a discussion point for you if you actually cared. But it was too embarrassing for you, right? Because it meant you were very, very wrong, and that the manner in which you were justifying your opinion on your blog, and the actions that you were supporting, were outright dangerous and irresponsible . None of that counts as a counter point? You managed to respond to things I didn’t even say in a prior post, but you couldn’t show the slightest sign of acknowledging that you really fucked up when you advocated that triggering people is perfectly fine because of exposure therapy? Really? Nothing? Who really is the one avoiding dialogue here?
I find this fascinating coming from the person who insisted that Sommers was worth listening to, while making vague, dodgy arguments to support their bold and courageous contrarian opinion. You came in here, in a post about Milo and Sommers, defended Sommers with just a bald assertion, brought up other tangential arguments about random bullshit, and then complained that no one addressed your tangents thoroughly enough. What a fucking farce.