Jonathan Merritt, who has these amazing qualifications,
Senior Columnist, Religion News Service @RNS; Contributing Editor, @TheWeek; Author of Jesus is Better Than You Imagined (2014)
has announced that Planned Parenthood should be defunded. He was asked by a woman what she should do for her “medically necessary birth control, pap smears, and tests”, which was like an open invitation to mansplain to a lady where she can take her lady parts. It would be hilarious if it weren’t so painful. Would you believe he sent her a list of alternatives to Planned Parenthood that included a bunch of CPCs? Bless his little Christian heart.
I am shocked! shocked! to note that he compared her unfavorably to any child with a cell phone.
In fairness, she did ask him where she should take her ladyparts; it’s not like he gratuitously volunteered to give her advice. That his advice stank is a separate issue.
Assuming that the tape is a complete and accurate representation of what was said, and represents the official policy of Planned Parenthood, I’m not sure PP shouldn’t be defunded. I support abortion rights. I do not support trafficking in human body parts. I realize the tape may have been creatively edited and when all facts come out it may not be as bad as the right is making out. But that was a pretty damning tape.
I’ve heard it was heavily edited.
What was the name of that creationist movie where that was done to PZ? Expelled?
Based on what I’ve seen from the right, I would be more than happy to believe it was heavily edited. If it was heavily edited, then obviously what I said about defunding PP wouldn’t apply.
But if it was not edited, then I’m not sure it’s a persuasive argument that defunding it will hurt innocent people. If a husband and father commits a crime and goes to jail, he can no longer support his family, and they suffer along with him. But we don’t as a society say he doesn’t get punished because of the impact on other people.
It’s heavily edited to make it look like PP sells fetal tissue for profit. They do not.
They do donate fetal tissue to research organizations for no profit, but this has been common knowledge for decades.
Why isn’t it your null hypothesis, any unsupported , or ill supported, claim from the right is nothing but propaganda?
What have they done to earn any trust?
Looks like he’s also a gay homophobe
eeyore @2:
Have you tried researching the subject to find out if the tape was a “complete and accurate representation of what was said”?
First off, what are the anti-abortion groups saying?
Planned Parenthood undercover video:
Planned Parenthood president criticizes GOP candidates:
Planned Parenthood responds to ‘heavily edited’ hidden video:
Statement from Planned Parenthood on new undercover video:
I hope this clears up any confusion on your part about the video, as well as Planned Parenthood’s policies.
Tony, and Nerd, the woman who asked Merritt where to take her ladyparts seems to be making the argument that even if the tape wasn’t edited, and is a complete and accurate representation of what PP does, PP still shouldn’t be defunded because doing so would hurt women without other access to health care. And that’s the specific argument to which I’m responding, and for purposes of that argument it doesn’t matter if the tape is accurate or not.
My point is that whatever hardship defunding PP would create for innocent women, that’s not a reason to continue to fund people who are breaking the law and engaging in abhorrent behavior. When people do bad things and suffer the consequences, innocent people often suffer along with them, and that’s an unfortunate fact of life.
Think of it this way: Suppose a doctor is the only doctor in three states who is performing abortions. Suppose that doctor is found to be sexually abusing his patients, and is about to lose his license and go to jail. Would you be persuaded by the argument that he should get off with a warning because if he isn’t able to perform abortions, nobody else in those states will either? I wouldn’t.
Same issue here.
eeyore @9:
Planned Parenthood is not breaking the law and they’re not engaging in abhorrent behavior. You could have easily found this out if you looked it up. Since you didn’t, I did it for you, but for some reason you chose not to read the material I presented. Here, from one of my links above:
Bolding mine.
All of that is elided in the heavily edited videos.
eeyore:
Thank you for admitting your point is only relevant if you support the lies of the forced-birthers.
eeyore @9:
You are trying to compare a single doctor to a huge international non-profit that performs thousands of roles with many thousands of doctors and care providers. Your analogy is asinine.
Tony and Llewelly, my point is relevant because it’s responding to the argument that was originally made. The woman who asked Merritt where to take her lady parts was arguing that the accuracy of the tape is irrelevant because she will suffer if PP is defunded. That was her primary point, and that’s the point to which I responded. And if you don’t get that, well, then there’s not much point to continuing.
Services offered by Planned Parenthood.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers are deceptive:
More deceit from Crisis Pregnancy Centers:
For anyone who thinks CPC’s are an alternative to Planned Parenthood.
No. 12, I’m comparing trying to evade the consequences of bad behavior to trying to evade the consequences of bad behavior. The point is not that one is a person and the other an organization; that point is that the hypothetical compares the apples of trying to evade consequences based on public need to the apples of trying to evade consequences based on public need. You do understand that no analogy is ever perfect, right?
It’s dishonestly edited. It was also created by a pal of James O’Keefe, which makes it suspect already; and if you want to complain about , you might want to look at the sleaziness of the “Center for Medical Progress”.
eeyore @13:
And if you’d researched this subject, you’d know that she’s right. Defunding Planned Parenthood based on the right-wing lies will result in women being harmed. You don’t seem to understand how many services PP offers. Which is why I posted the above link.
But at this point, you’re right. This is pointless. You’re immune to facts and evidence.
Nope, never was relevant. You only believed for even a second because you can’t act skeptically toward organizations that deserve full skepticism.
Irrelevant bullshit, as if the accusations weren’t true, there would be no problem, no need to go elsewhere. You need to take skepticism 101. Who you can believe and why can you believe them.
No, you are disbelieving an organization that has honesty and integrity, bases on the lies of bullshit of groups that don’t have honesty and integrity. Which does bring your honesty and integrity into question, if you don’t admit your mistake in believing anything that was said.
@15: You do understand that no analogy is ever perfect, right?
You should at least make an analogy similar instead of completely different. A better analogy would be that you caught a doctor doing something unethical (sexually abusing their patients in your analogy), and now want to close the entire hospital system. Which would be a moronic idea. Which you seem to support. Which doesn’t surprise me.
I sort of get the point eeyore is trying to make. Dianna Anderson did not respond to Merritt’s argument by saying “Dr. Moore is simply wrong” but with “but where will I go then”. I get the impression that Anderson doesn’t care about (and might not even be aware of) the bogus tape (confession, I wasn’t aware of the tape but I wasn’t paying attention) and is simply challenging (and winning) a no-nothing blowhard who equates PP = abortion factory. But to be charitable and to avoid making presumptions about a stranger’s intentions there is a third option. If we are to (hypothetically) defund an (hypothetical and fictional) organization based on wrong doing perhaps we need to ask how will we replace the services. If, say, the library of congress or the dmv were to be closed down do to corruption, wouldn’t there be a responsibility to replace the necessary services before we take the organization away? In which case Anderson’s question is a fair one even if the tape were valid: If we defund PP due to wrong doing who will replace the very necessary services that will now be lacking?
But the question is purely academic as the tapes were contrived and utterly unfounded in the first place.
Seeing something mysterious called “the tape” show up in comment #2 was confusing. And this is some kind of big situation? It feels weird learning that PZ knew the big picture when he said:
and didn’t reveal any of it for some reason…
But some other commenters also thought mentioning something called “the tape” (with no introduction to what tape they were talking about) would be understood by other readers, so I guess maybe PZ also just assumed everyone knew already?
I heard about the tape and its more than dubious source last week, Tuesday or Wednesday. It isn’t new news. It’s just now somebody is trying to pretend the tape is anything other than utter and total bullshit, and PP should be defunded for idiotlogical reasons that have nothing to do with reality.
Brian Pansky @22:
I thought PZ ought to have included a bit more background on the tape as well. That’s part of the reason I included the links in my comment @8.
Nerd @23:
While I understand that you’ve heard of the tape (as have I), PZ has a lot of readers (many of them outside the US, as you know), and it stands to reason many of them have not.
Nerd, No. 19, where did I say that I believed the tape? I haven’t. In fact, I specifically said that I doubted the tape, but was speaking hypothetically if the tape were true. This is the second time in a month or so that you’ve called me a liar based on you being too fucking stupid to understand what I actually said. If you’re going to accuse people of dishonesty, you might try understanding what they’re saying first. Tony, No. 17, you don’t understand what I said either, and seem to have no interest in understanding what I said, so I shall simply wish you a pleasant evening and go on to other things.
Kengi, No. 20, I can envision a situation (albeit probably not likely) in which a single doctor’s conduct might justify shutting down an entire hospital system. Did everyone in authority know he was sexually abusing patients and do nothing to stop him? Were there no checks in place to make it difficult for him to do it and get away with it? Was the hospital system run like a fraternity in which sexual harassment and abuse were not just tolerated but celebrated? If so, then maybe a single doctor’s conduct might justify shutting it down, at least until necessary changes are made.
And that’s actually close to the claims being made here. The woman on the tape is not a low-level functionary; she’s near the top of the organization, and she seems to be saying that PP is disregarding the law and engaging in unethical behavior. If that were true, (AND FOR THE BENEFIT OF TONY AND NERD I’M NOT SAYING IT IS), then there might be legitimate questions about whether the organization should be defunded, at least until necessary changes are made.
eeyore, I don’t know whether Kengi or Tony are deliberately ignoring your point or not but they seem to be clearly saying they do not think the conversation is worth having as the entire premise is faulty. Yes, if an organization is corrupt it should be shut down but is that necessarily relevant? Do we actually believe Merritt analyzed the tape and thought long and hard and reached his conclusion or do we believe he simply jerked his knee and blathered? In defending PP, Anderson didn’t seem to care much about the tape but instead wanted to see if Merritt even knew what the services PP offers. He didn’t and she was amused by his arrogant ignorance. PZ was merely interested in an absurd case of mansplaining.
If no-one else (including Merritt himself) are analyzing the merit of the tape and as the tape is ludicrous enough to be dismissed outright, is there any reason we should care about this discussion whether needed services justify ignoring law breaking? (It doesn’t; that was a pretty short discussion.)
I suppose this hypothetical discussion might be worth having somewhere but as the general consensus is that the accusations against PP are beneath ridicule, I can’t say I’m surprised no-one wants to have it here.
eeyore this bit that woozy just posted is important
A hypothetical discussion like this is not just silly, it’s frustrating. If someone tells lies about me, and it’s clear they have done so, why do I then have to talk about what it means if the lie was true? Seems that they should be having to deal with the fact that they lied. There are a lot of lies that are told about PP and about abortion regarding women’s health. PP spends a lot of time debunking them. Should we also have a hypothetical discussion about all of those?
What is it with people wanting to get all hypothetical on issues that actually affect real people?
Planned Parenthood is NOT making a profit off of selling fetal tissue on the black market or whatever that dishonest tape claimed. They are not breaking the law.
So any “hypothetical” conversation about how Planned Parenthood should be shut down if they’re breaking the law is off topic and useless.
I don’t believe that tape is real, not in the slightest.
But you know what? If some people at Planned Parenthood were illegally profiting off of fetal tissue, it still shouldn’t be de-funded. In this fantasy universe, I would say that the specific people responsible should be prosecuted and the organization should continue to provide necessary medical care to people who wouldn’t be able to access it otherwise.
It doesn’t matter, though, because the whole thing is bullshit.
MadHatter @28:
Thank you. This is why I chose not to address that.
eeyore,
While we are playing irrelevant hypothetical arguments and you, eeyore, are trying to play both ends against the middle, there’s a question you need to answer.
Why are you prepared to treat a short tape clearly edited to make a single ideological point and already thoroughly discredited as of equal value in this “contest” to the experience of hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who have direct knowledge of what Planned Parenthood does and who depend upon it for health services not otherwise available to them?
Not everything in life is theoretical, you know!
woozy
That’s probably because Dianna Anderson is aware of the the fact that she actually, urgently needs those services. They could save her life, while all the men discussing “shutting down” are fuck all hit by any meassure that cuts the support to PP.
Eeyeore sits on his high cis male horse telling us people with vaginas and uteri that “innocent people suffering” is just the way the world works, because he will never fucking die from cervical cancer that wasn’t diagnosed in time, or an ectopic pregnancy. He simply thinks that if the accusations were true, those women should simply die because of bad luck.
Fuck that shit. Even if, if, IF the accusations were true, which they are not, shutting PP down and letting those people suffer would not be a law of nature, an unchangeable fact of life. Even IF it was decided at one point that a certain provider needed to be shut down because of irredeemable unethical and illegal conduct, the only moral solution would be a controlled shut down while alternative services are being established.
No, you don’t just close the hospital even if the bosses allowed for sexual assault because people will still arrive with accute heart attacks. If necessary you put a police officer with every doctor until you can establish an alternative service.
C’mon people.
Eeyore had done everyone a huge public service.
Eeyore is very stupid and cannot think its way out of a paper bag. A fact, which eeyore has proved conclusively many times over.
Nothing to see in here (In eeyore’s head there is just empty space), so move along.
Thank you, Tony for providing more information. I hadn’t heard about that video before now.
Your mental wanking is dismissed as unnecessary and unscientific mental wanking. Why does there need to be any mental wanking discussion based on lies and bullshit? There doesn’t, as it isn’t productive. Only those trying to acknowledge a invalid point would go there. This is why you are not thought of as a serious responder, because you went there.
All, because Dianna Anderson’s original point, to which I was responding, is that her medical needs are more important than whether a corrupt organization should be shut down. In fact, not only was that her central point, but I’m the only person here who has actually addressed that central point. So you’re all saying that the central premise of a linked article is off topic? Wow, just wow.
But since nobody else Seems actually interested in discussing that central point,and since I’ve already said everything I have to say on the subject, that’s it for me for this conversation.
Fact: Planned Parenthood does not make money off of fetal tissues.
Fact: They do provide tissues that were donated to medical researchers for the cost of shipping and handling (the $60-100 that I saw quoted elsewhere is 100% believable to me considering that it requires skilled people to collect the tissue as well as it being costly to ship a biohazard).
Fact: Planned Parenthood is in full compliance with the law.
Opinion: Abortion is legal and moral, I don’t care if PP was selling the tissues at a profit. Plasma donation centers sell human tissue at a profit as well and nobody cares. And I don’t see a moral distinction between the two as there is nothing wrong with abortion.
You should have said that in your second post. No, the central point was the lies and bullshit from the right to do ANYTHING to close a very useful low cost service for women. You missed the real point.
eeyore,
Since PP does not do anything illegal, your “point” is several points past moot, heading away from meaningless and approaching nobody gives a fuck.
eeyeore
Yeah, I mean, just from her point of view, I mean.
WTeverlovingF?
YOU are perfectly fine to sacrifice your medical needs on the altair of moral perfection. You can make that call for yourself. Dianna Anderson is perfectly entitled to think her own medical needs to be fuck more important. Because it’S her fucking life. But nonono, we got a guy with an opinion and he is perfectly happy to let women suffer and possibly die, because he knows very well that he’s not going to be affected.
eeyore wrote:
Let’s hope he sticks the flounce…
Bob Cesca’s Salon piece about the latest smear against Planned Parenthood includes four links conveniently in a row debunking it; even the one from Wonkette contains worthwhile specifics.
And what if eeyore really wants everyone else to call him a sea lion? Should we deny him that joy?
On topic.
James O’keefe et al. have been editing videos into lies for years. It’s his basic tactic. Nothing new here at all.
1. He submitted one in a Texas court case. The judges promptly threw it out.
2. James O’keefe has a habit of losing in court. He’s a convicted criminal for trying to bug Louisiana’s Mary Landrieu’s office.
He settled out of court when Acorn sued him for lying about them.
Sooo… right wingers and forced birthers compulsively lie; who could possibly have seen that coming?
There is not enough salt in the known universe to accompany the claims of the religious right. Lies and the deliberate misrepresentation of their opponents in pursuit of an illusory ‘gotcha’ moment is their stock in trade, as we have seen first hand on this very blog from various trolls on all too many occasions.
O’Keefe and his peeps lied about Acorn. His deceptive video was debunked. He lost court battles. Still, for years after the organization Acorn no longer existed, rightwing legislators included defunding it in line items attached to pieces of legislation. House Republicans took time to defund a nonexistent organization 13 times. Here’s an example from 2013 being discussed:
Please note that ACORN was trying to do something Republicans hate, register low-income voters and help the poor in other ways. Relevant video, Chevy Chase.
Planned Parenthood is trying to do something the rightwing hates, provide reproductive care; including contraception, abortion, STD screening and other services to women. It is worth noting that the funds that Republicans want to take away are not allowed by federal law to be used for the abortion services. Abortions constitute about 3% of the services provided by PP. Taxpayer funds are not applied to that 3% of services. (Some sources put the abortion services at 10%.) And yet, we saw rightwing politicians standing up in our legislative halls in Washington D.C. to claim that 90% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortions.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-at-a-glance
http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/planned-parenthood/
The experience with the deceptive video about Acorn teaches us that this video about Planned Parenthood will have a long life no matter how many times it is debunked. This video is going to play a part in the run-up to the 2016 Presidential election.
The movement to defund Planned Parenthood is based on lies and hyperbole. The deceptively edited video, which Tony addressed in comment #8, is propaganda.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/14/attack-on-planned-parenthood-3-deceptive-edits/204419
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/what-you-didnt-see-planned-parenthood-video
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bush-rejects-family-tradition-opposes-planned-parenthood
That last link leads to an article that discusses what this defunding folderol is really about — politicians and activists playing to an ill-informed rightwing base.
You have no doubt noted that if Republicans defund Planned Parenthood they will reduce contraceptive care for all of those poor women they are continually excoriating for having too many babies.
The donated fetal tissues help with research that will save even more infants, and others. Coincidently Radiolab just had a program on what happened to one donation:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/grays-donation/
It adds to the evidence that O’Keefe is a creepy obnoxious liar.
eeyore:
OH GOODY! A cis man gets to have a hypothetical conversation about a fucking lie about abortion, and then he gets to flounce away! How convenient for him.
Too bad approximately half the population don’t get that fucking luxury. Must be nice not to worry about something so life or death every fucking day.
I hope the fetal tissue from my abortion was sold or donated for research, I really do.
Lynna @46:
They ought to be. In fact, let’s shift some money away from our bloated defense budget to taypayer funded abortion services.
Hmm. I follow the pro-life bullshit fairly closely, so I knew all about this bogus tape, and just assumed everyone was already fully aware. I guess I shouldn’t assume that, and maybe I should write more about the evil anti-abortion movement.
PZ Myers @ # 51: … maybe I should write more about the evil anti-abortion movement.
No, please write more about that implied non-evil anti-abortion movement – I hadn’t even heard of that one before.
Giliell, No. 41, what’s good for Dianna may or may not be good for society as a whole. There are any number of public policy positions that would be good for me but bad for society. I suppose selfish me could advocate for them, but that doesn’t mean I should win as a matter of policy. So yeah, if PP really is Dianna’s only real option, she’s right to advocate to keep it funded. But if the organization is engaged in mischief, I’m not sure she should win that debate. Unfortunately everything isn’t about her, or you, or me. It’s a fair question which harm is worse: funding an organization doing bad things, or making it harder for women to get health care. And that’s the question Dianna brought up in the first place, which I seem to be the only person interested in discussing.
And by the way, the notion that because I’m a CIS man means I don’t get to talk about what’s good public policy on women’s health issues is just nonsense (to say nothing of bigoted against CIS men). I’m not a Jew or and Arab, but that doesn’t mean I can’t participate in a conversation about the Middle East, even if the positions I take directly impact on Jews and Arabs who do live in the Middle East. Shall only Jews and Arabs be permitted to have opinions on that subject?
eeyore, Planned Parenthood was not “engaged in mischief”. If anyone was, it was the assholes who maliciously edited that tape to make Planned Parenthood look bad.
Why, then, are you spending all this time and effort attacking Planned Parenthood for something that didn’t happen? As far as I am concerned, you are trolling and may fuck off, preferably as quickly as your little troll feet can carry you.
It is up to you to show with reliable EVIDENCE that is the case. You showed nothing. Ergo, all you had was hot air. Whereas the tape was shown to be both highly edited and bogus.
Question everything.
So even though you will never have the life threatening complications of pregnancy, or the pain of ovarian cysts, or period cramps that leave you vomiting from the pain, you feel that you should have some say about what health care I can have access to because reasons? If you were a doctor I might grant you more of a potential say. But instead you are just okay with women facing death. That is terrible.
eeyore,
She should. If PP is some women’s only real option for getting the healthcare that they need, then suddenly defunding PP without FIRST ensuring that those women will have access to an equally good alternative option would be wrong.
But semercogitans (30), Giliel (33), and I (21 and 27) all did address the central premise. I even went as far as to agree with you in stating that, no, offering services doesn’t justify ignoring illegal corruption, which is so far as I can figure is about as deep and thorough as the discussion merits. (Your “no analogy is perfect” analogy need not have been so difficult. Simply choosing any organization from column A and any crime from column B would have worked: Local transit authority taking bribes, animal shelter receiving stolen goods, day care center engaging in canibalism– all good.)
To reiterate what I said in 21, although I do not believe this was her central premise (I suspect her premise was merely to challenge a perceived no-nothing blowhard to prove he was not) but I allowed if it was, she had she raises the very valid point in asking while we shut down a necessary service for corruption, how are we going to address the need for services. This is a valid point that needs to be addressed.
Sempercogitans (30) makes the very clear and obvious observation that in dealing with corruption there are other more practical and useful options than across the board defunding and burning to the ground.
But on the whole this discussion is simple, trivial and not worth having. (“No, don’t tolerate corruption” what more needs to be said?) And considering the absurd nature of the accusations, it’s insulting and beneath consideration.
OH MY FUCKING GAWD. There is no “but”. How many times do we have to say this: This tape is deceptively edited, and it is a lie, and Planned Parenthood is NOT ENGAGED IN ANY FUCKING MISCHIEF.
Your argument amounts to nothing more than a dangerous strawman.
There is nothing to debate. PP is not involved in any “mischief” as has been stated more than once.
Are you fucking SERIOUS here? You keep repeating the same bullshit based on lies. This is actually about women, not you. And this isn’t a fair question, because THE ORGANIZATION IS NOT DOING ANY BAD THINGS as we have stated over and fucking over again.
It does mean you should shut the fuck up when women are telling you that what you’re stating is not only wrong but DANGEROUS.
You are arguing a circular straw man based on dangerous lies. STOP. IT.
I don’t trust people who say “CIS” instead of “cis”.
throwawaygradstudent:
Right?!
eeyore
Of course you get to talk. As far as I see it, the problem is that you never stop talking and intead start thinking.
You’re talking all the time. But you’re talking bullshit.
You are neither a healthcare professional nor are you affected in any way shape or form. Why the fuck should anybody listen to your mindless Gelaber about where and when women and non-binary people with vaginas and uteri in the USA should be allowed to access life saving medical services? You don’t know what you’Re talking about, you’re not affected. That doesn’t make you “impartial” or “rational”, it makes you an arrogant asshole with no sense for his own lack of qualification.
And since I suppose that your opinions about the Middle East are equally uneducated and harmful, folks living there are probably not interested and why should they be.
Since eeyore won’t shut up about this hypothetical that’s not connected to reality, let’s take a look at something I quoted upthread @14:
If PP were indeed profiting from selling fetal parts and/or were acting unethically by not obtaining consent from women, I still don’t think defunding is a reasonable option unless and until another viable option for women is found. This viable option must be able to provide all the services PP performs, and must be as convenient as PP is, and as affordable as PP is. What services are there like that? Certainly not the fucking Crisis Pregnancy Centers suggested by Jonathan Merritt. So if there is nothing to fill the void left by a defunded PP, how many women will suffer? Here’s a figure:
http://students.com.miami.edu/netreporting/?page_id=2364
So tell me eeyore, since I’m finally addressing your hypothetical-how many women are you willing to let suffer because you think PP should be defunded without anything to fill that void (and unlike Jonathan Merritt, you’ve offered up nothing to replace PP so far as I can tell)?
On balance, do you think it would be better to defund PP over ethical lapses and selling fetal body parts for a profit than to find an alternative that allows them to continue receiving the funding that they need to serve the millions of women who use their multiple services?
This knee-jerk “defund PP” is bullshit. Conservatives and people like eeyore don’t seem to think through the consequences of what they’re suggesting. Either that or they don’t care about the people who would suffer.
Eeyore @ 53
sempercognitas brought up that it’s not an either/or issue. Giliell brought up that the question how to provide for services while addressing wrong-doing is a more relevant and important question. And Tony answered the question directly by stating that in his opinion providing health care is more important than rectifying wrong-doing. (Tony, I apologize if I’m misinterpretting or inaccurately representing your viewpoint.)
So I don’t think it is accurate to say you are the only person interested in discussing this.
I don’t think this was Anderson’s premise but even if it were and even if you were the only one interested in discussing it… well, so what? You haven’t demonstrated at all that this is an interesting topic of discussion. I think it’s a pretty mundane and straightforward one depending quite a bit on individual circumstances. As the individual circumstances in this case is that the entire thing is a dishonest fiction I think the proper response is a disgust at dishonest tactics. I, personally, won’t refuse to play hypothetical games, but if others do I see that as a perfectly valid response. Why should anyone engage in a ludicrous question brought on by dishonest tactics?
Hypotheticals, strawmen, indignant insistence that he, a CIS MAN, can too have a say in women’s reproductive rights? You’re flying all the troll flags, eeyore. Don’t post in this thread again, or you’ll be banned.
Woozy @58 and 64: Two very nice summations.
On top of that, I’m not put out that Dianna Anderson would respond to Jonathan Merritt’s tweet in order to pull him off the topic of the validity of the tape. There were signals in his initial tweet: for example, “Enough is enough!” to indicate that he thinks this tape only added another blot on an already begrimed operation. He also begins with “.@drmoore is right.” I’d say he’s got a plan for those who argue its legitimacy, but she pulled him into an area for which he wasn’t prepared.
And wow…Dr. Moore. A doctor who displays his “Defund PP” view right up front, huh? But Dr. Russell Moore is not an M.D. He has a Ph.D. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and is president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. They don’t seem to care that three hours of video is edited down to eight minutes that become ridiculously questionable in comparison to the whole. The ERLC uses the opportunity for an inspirational black and white photo of their esteemed president Russell Moore in three-quarter view with his quote: “Let’s be clear about what is going on, it is not only that infants in their mother’s wombs, are deprived of their lives, but also that their corpses are desecrated for profit.”
(The bold is theirs.)
woozy @64:
You’re only off a little and it may be my fault for not expressing my thoughts clearly. I do think providing healthcare is the primary concern. At the same time, I think if PP *were* doing something wrong *some* type of measure should be taken to rectify the wrongdoing. But whatever that action might be, I don’t think defunding should be an option.
They aren’t infants, they are fetuses. Only deliberately ignorant crackpots can’t tell the difference.
eeyore, #2
No, even if the tape is an accurate representation defunding shouldn’t even be on the table. This is like defunding the department of transportation if you find out some people in it are committing crimes. The proper response would be to investigate what was said and take action against the people who were involved in it.
No, your stance and jumping straight to talk of defunding shows you’re against abortion and women’s healthcare.
@69 Saad:
Not quite. We’re (OK, they are) talking about taking away funds from an organization that are not used to fund the parts of the organization where the supposed wrong-doing happened. And as far as I can tell, the funding for that part would not be affected at all.
In other words, we’re talking about penalizing exactly the wrong people.
khms, #70
I see. Thanks for the correction.
PZ
I certainly would appreciate more posts on that subject, but only if that is a topic you feel like expounding upon (I know that it can be exhausting emotionally to delve into it, especially because the topic of abortion seems to be a troll magnet).
That it’s a troll magnet is an argument for more — I’m not about to let the mob dictate my opinions.
You are certainly a better man than I am. (I agree, but if I were blogging, I think the mob would actually be able to successfully make me cower. It is why I just comment on other blogs, I suppose)
@63 Tony:
To the people who want to defund PP, they aren’t dealing with people, They’re only dealing with women.
/regressive mode off
Can I throw up now?
::passes shadow a puke bucket::