It’s an outrage! It’s also got the only good excuse for displaying one. Here it is:
It’s a trophy. Minnesotans captured it in battle at Gettysburg. A few years ago, Virginians had the gall to ask for it back.
“The third day of Gettysburg, the 47 Minnesotans that survived the day before, rejoined the battle and that was the day that they captured the flag of the regiment of Virginia… which resides in the Minnesota Historical Society to this day,” Dayton said. “The governor of Virginia earlier this year requested that the flag be loaned, quote, unquote, to Virginia to commemorate — it doesn’t quite strike me as something they would want to commemorate, but we declined that invitation.”
“It was taken in a battle at the cost of the blood of all these Minnesotans,” Dayton continued. “And I think it would be a sacrilege to return it to them. It was something that was earned through the incredible courage and valor men who gave their lives and risked their lived to obtain it. And as far as I’m concerned, it’s a closed subject.”
Exactly right. It’s the loser’s flag; why you’d want to celebrate it is a mystery. But we’re happy to rub it in your nose, if you’d like.
One country, indivisible …
Yes, those flags belong, like the nazi flags (and countless others) in the “Salon Des Batailles” at the Invalides museum. It represents a defeated idea. It needs to remain defeated until it’s as (mostly) forgotten as the battle-standards of the ancients.*
(*Although I’ll say this for Ghenghis Khan: he didn’t really bother with a bullshit ideology like race. I have long felt that humans’ need for ‘big ideology’ – invented during the wars of religion in Europe and perfected by the nazis – is a sign that it’s getting harder to motivate the masses to collective violence. Some kind of emotional/religious/political appeal beyond naked force is needed)
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!
One of the few hymns I love sentiment behind!
Chigau@#1 One country, indivisible …
Yeah, whenever I run into some naif talking about how politically brilliant the founders of the US were, I like to remind them that the republic they tried to create barely lasted 100 years before destroying itself in a pointless civil war. Political geniuses who kicked the can down the road for the next generation, indeed.
Being a Civil War history buff, I had to look up the 28th Va, which led of course to the history of the 1st Minn. Impressive (and also tragic) exploits at Gettysburg. 82% casualties on the second day.
Yeh, even in the Pacific Northwest. We attended a function at a friend’s home last evening and surprisingly saw the stars & bars displayed prominently on their neighbor’s porch, given equal billing to a true US flag. Dunno if it is habitually displayed, or if it was in some sick sort of “sympathy” for the events in Charleston. But it came close to spoiling a great evening.
It always amuses me when I see someone get it wrong and fly the confederate flag upside down. ( one of the points should be pointing straight up. And the mistake is obviously original since the writing is right side up.
See http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=UPSIDE-DOWN+Confederate+Flag
for the modern meaning of the upside down confederate flag. Oh wait, the flag isn’t modern. I t must be like one of my coworkers said, they were just dumbasses.
Yes, I applaud the display of trophies. Like the photos of 101st Airborne paratroopers proudly displaying the Nazi flag taken in battle, this *is* the proper way to show these hated symbols.
Things Americans probably assume everyone knows about the Confederate flag:
It was designed in 1861 and originally rejected as a national flag but adopted as a battle flag by the army of North Virginia specifically (hence its capture?). It’s only one of several confederate flags, of which several others are still used in a few contexts. If I understand rightly, it never became the official flag of the confederacy, though some of those include what we think of today as the confederate flag in the top left corner. While at least some of these other flags was explicitly designed to symbolize white supremacy, the battle flag design was modified to make it more appealing to the South’s Jewish population.
Use of the confederate flags today seems to have two origins: left-over symbolism from the time of the civil war involving several different confederate flags, and revived use of the battle flag specifically by white supremacist organizations in the 20th century. Apparently attitudes towards the confederate flag in the US are shifting rapidly from a majority neutral perception to a majority perceiving it as as a symbol of racism. I expect there has just been another leap in that direction.
I hope I got that all correct. Anything else?
I’d also add as museum pieces in general, it’s nice to see old flags in context, and nice to see history as both the good things and bad things a people do. (One might even tolerate a reproduction for illustrative purposes.) But you need the context: while some of the rank and file I’m sure had all the reasons people sign up as soldiers, the war was fought because politicians couldn’t accept change from an economic state that relied on slave labor and a race-based caste system.
Ah, but like so many other states in the union, we have our own vestiges of the historically questionable. Lake Calhoun, a lovely urban lake on the east side of Minneapolis, is named after John C. Calhoun, a US senator from South Carolina (1845-1850), whose rhetoric supported slavery as a positive social force and provided the ideological foundation for the secession of southern states from the union:
Granted, the lake was named after him because he authorized one of the first settlements in the area, but I still think of the sad history of John C. Calhoun almost every time I walk around the lake. I wish we could rename the lake by the name given to it by the Dakota: Mde Maka Ska or White Earth Lake. That’s a far more honorable name than the name of a racist southern curmudgeon and it would serve in some small way to acknowledge that the people who once lived in Minnesota were systematically pushed off of their land by white settlers.
The lake’s name isn’t quite the equivalent of flying the stars and bars in the state capitol of South Carolina, but it’s still crappy in its own way. The current name represents white racism in three distinct ways: the institution of slavery, the theft of land from native people, and the willingness to forget these histories. These serve as integral components in fostering an enduring legacy of institutionalized racism, flowing in the wake of centuries of violence and obscured by the short attention span of white historical memory. I don’t know that changing the name of the lake would in any way alleviate the noxious racism that permeates the consciousness and institutions of the US, but I find it interesting that two of the US’ most horrible chapters in history are intertwined so closely. There is no region in the United States that does not bear a terrible racist history and each day, we walk past the living vestiges of that history.
Rats, that should be the WEST side of Minneapolis.
@Marcus Ranum2
A unifying narrative. Science needs to step up. The Cosmos reboot was a good start.
It reminds me of a scene in American Dad I can’t find the link to, but Roger and Klaus are on a trip to Europe and they are walking on the beaches of Normandy and to paraphrase
Roger: To think of all those soldiers dying here…
Klaus: Yah
Roger: Men who died… not even men, boys really…
Klaus: …Just trying to defend their country
[Beat]
Klaus: Oh, right. Yes. Ha ha.
timerwraith @12
I thought the east side of Minneapolis was St. Paul.
pedz — Maybe they didn’t know the rules.
Al Dente, yes, I confused east and west. For some reason, moving from the East Coast to MN has cause me to perpetually confuse east and west. North and south mostly don’t seem to be a problem for me, for some reason. I’m always choosing the wrong on-ramp onto highways here because of my directional confusion.
Anyway, Lake Calhoun is on the west sided of Minneapolis and indeed, St. Paul is on the east side. The Mississippi River serves as the east/west border between a good part of Minneapolis and St. Paul. There are actually a whole string of lakes that run along Minneapolis’ west side. Lake Calhoun is one among many.
Timberwraith, a re-name to “White Earth Lake” would be lovely.
Virginia, by the way, had incentive to separate from England back in the 1770s because England was about to abolish slavery. And despite some whitewashing, the American Civil War was largely about slavery. When a state has twice rebelled and fought, in order to keep slaves, asking for a flag back is no big deal.
Americans of the USA persuasion are lucky, in a cackhanded sort of way, to have a hsitorical relic as the racists’ choice of flag. Here in the UK, their choice is the national flag- the Union Jack- and that’s one reason progressives here have had problems in creating an alternative publicy- acceptable sort of patriotism.
Anyway, I didn’t know about the Minnesotans and I’m glad I do now, even if war is something I detest. When you’ve got to face up to the extremists, they did it.
Some Brit pedant is sure to say “Union Flag!!!!”- but before you do, I refer you to the anthem of our home- grown racist, sectarian terrorist nightmare in Nortthern Ireland, “God BlessOur Union Jack”. And they know what they mean.
Marcus Ranum #2
No, but he bothered with a bullshit ideology like ethnic tribalism/nationalism. His rise to power was all about the unification of all Mongols (who were separate tribes with lots of in-fighting which affected Ghenghis Khan personally). The Romans had the idea of Pax Romana, Alexander the Great was trying to unify east and west and of course there are the endless Israelite wars all under the guise of Jehovah. Hell, all ancient wars were about, at part, about who has the bigger god.
Humanity hasn’t changed, the excuses became more elaborate.
Presidential candidate and religious/conservative dunderhead, Mike Huckabee, talked about the Confederate flag, (after saying he didn’t think presidential candidates should talk about it), on the Meet the Press this morning:
Huckabee seriously wanted to downplay the issue, and he wanted to ignore the issue. Some part of his malfunctioning brain must know that he is on the wrong side of the Confederate flag issue. Therefore, he makes up an excuse to ignore it.
The civil war was just “largely” about slavery?
The southern states threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected because they (incorrectly) called him an abolitionist. (Also a “liberal”, which is interesting…)
Period newspaper editorials, various states’ declarations of secession, and Confederate leaders and their “President” all said the war was about slavery and
You know what? I’m going to take the people who started the war at their fucking word.
If the “stars and bars” is there to remind Southerns about their heritage, then they should also remember when they threw a temper tantrum over owning people that got hundreds of thousands of Americans killed. That trophy is a reminder that the South LOST. They need to be reminded of that and what the war was about every time you hear about Southern “pride”.
I’ve been trying to finish a book on Reconstruction. Haven’t been ble to do so, it is horrible.
It looks like the North won the military conflict, but not what was actually a guerrilla war that followed.
@Menyambal – враг народа
If only it were true that “England” (Britain) was about to abolish slavery. The campaign to abolish the slave trade didn’t really get started until the 1780s, and didn’t pass until 1807. Actual abolition took until 1833.
Slaves in England proper were freed by the courts 1772, and the Scottish courts recognised the precedent. I’m not aware of Somersett’s Case playing a significant part in the American Independence agitation.
This is the same flag that Virginia asked for when J.Ventura was gov–I believe his answer was “Why? We won.”
Jafafa Hots 22:
That’s because prior to the Civil Rights Movement, Republicans were the liberal party. Republicans like to forget this while claiming to (still) be the party of Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Eisenhower and simultaneously trying to claim that JFK was really a conservative. The neo-cons really want to pretend that all the cool people were on their side.
I’m imagining what he’d have said if he’d been elected governor of Virginia.
I’ve been seeing more and more confederate flags being flown from the backs of pick-ups or used as stick-on displays on pick-ups in Texas. With every controversy, there are more of them.
The redneck son-in-law, who grew up in Texas, had one plastered on one wall of his garage when he was stationed in Arkansas.
I also often wonder about the Texas flag, which is flown everywhere here. I was told that it is the only state flag that can be flown on the same level as the US flag because it used to be the flag of a separate country. There are quite a few businesses around here that don’t fly a US flag, but do fly a Texas flag. I’ve often wondered if this is a signal that the owner of the business is a secessionist.
In my opinion, once Texas signed on as a state, the rules about flying the flag of that state should have been subject to all of the rules observed by other states, without exception. I feel that the southern states were given too many privileges after the end of the Civil War and now they are flaunting them.
He’d probably cite Congress required all civil war flags and trophies be returned, I think.
As Va. did when he said that.
To which, as I recall, he replied “Tell them to come get it”.
Alverant @23
The south (too much of it) has been both glorifying and in total denial of that loss since it happened. That’s huge part of the problem. A large subset of the population here still view this as a grievous wrong to eventually be corrected and avenged. Not as something to learn from. Something to double down on instead. This is not a small town I live in, and almost every time I go somewhere, seems like every third car passing has some sort a “south’s gonna rise again’ type sticker. Or they’re wearing a shirt with some variation.
Every time I hear people insisting it was about ‘state’s rights’, I think, yeah, the state’s right for some people to OWN other people, why do you not see that?!
Shit, I’ve just realized. The actual National Flag of the Confederacy looks one whole lot like the European flag. Ha…. what shall we do now?
To me, someone flying any Confederate flag is a traitor to the constitution and the people of the United States, pure and simple.
Yes, free speech allows them to fly it as it allows others to fly the Nazi flag, but just as you’d assume one of the latter had judgmental defects you’d also have to assume one of the former had issues as well.
Naturally, when it comes to it, these very same traitors then go whinging on about being true and godly American patriots. Grump.
jacksprocket, yeah. If those UKnians who want to ever do succeed in creating less dire associations with the Union Jack, it’ll only be because the racists love the St George’s cross flag (or whatever its proper name is) if anything even more. (personally I don’t want either one, given the history with which they are associated (though as I’m not English the George cross isn’t mine anyway, I’m lucky to say))
jacksprocket @19:
I know, right? I used to work for the oil industry and I flew a lot through Heathrow to Aberdeen. I got lots of souvenirs with UK and Scotland flags. I went to Dublin on vacation during one of those extended business trips and got things with Ireland flags. Then, on another extended business trip, I married a man from Northern Ireland. All the souvenirs went in a box in the attic. I tried to buy a flag for Northern ireland. Oh, said my husband, you can’t fly that either; people will think you’re taking sides (he and his family don’t take sides and are known for it). Ugh.
timberwraith
Welcome to Minnesota! Your confusion is probably not going to be helped by the news that Lake Calhoun and the other lakes in that chain are in what is known as South Minneapolis. (nevermind that it is technically southwest of downtown) This naming logic is consistent with the business district found at Lake and Hennepin Avenue within South Minneapolis being known as Uptown, even though it is south of downtown. The Minnesota History Center is well worth a visit if you find yourself over on the east side of the cities.
Re: #6, #9. #11 (and possibly others)…
The flag depicted at the top of the article is *not* the “stars and bars”. The proper term for ‘upper left corner’ (heraldically) is the canton. On a flag, it is normal to have the canton at the fly, that is, the edge next to support from which a flag is flown.
A couple of the “Confederate national flags” *other* than the “stars and bars” have the battle flag in canton. And, of course, the US flag has the field of stars in canton.
As regards which side is up (and per the comment at #9, you have the choice between the flag being upside down or the text on the flag being inverted), in maritime usage, flying a flag or ensign upside down is a distress signal. With some flags (e.g. the “Union Flag” of the UK), it’s really hard sometimes to tell which way is right side up and which is upside down.
At first I thought of a line from The Simpsons:
“This Confederate symbol is an embarrassment, particularly as we are a northern state.”
roachiesmom @31:
^^^^This.
I often think the same thing. And people rarely say what rights the states were fighting over. Hmmm…I wonder which one they wanted to keep around.
I visited the U.S. Capitol last month, where each state gets to display two statues of famous sons (and even a daughter or two). I was mildly surprised — no, I wasn’t — to find that one of Georgia’s statues was Alexander H. Stevens, and one of Mississippi’s was Jefferson Davis. Not to mention various Confederate generals here and there.
po8crg said:
“Slaves in England proper were freed by the courts 1772, and the Scottish courts recognised the precedent. I’m not aware of Somersett’s Case playing a significant part in the American Independence agitation.”
Oh, it did, it did. Though you’ll never hear about it in most American grade or even high schools, especially those in the South or which (like Texas) were settled by Southern slave camp owners. (The reason Texas isn’t still a Mexican province is because Mexico was in the process of abolishing slavery and the Southern slaver expatriates decided to create the Republic of Texas – which soon was absorbed into the U.S. of A. – rather than give up their God-given right to own other human beings.)
Up until the time of Somerset v. Stewart, the members of the Southern slave camp elite thought of themselves as proper British gentlemen, much more so than what they saw as the uncouth rabble in the North. They, being the top dogs in a society with no middle classes to speak of, had nothing but contempt for the embryonic rebellion movements in bourgeois Boston and Philadelphia.
Somerset v. Stewart was a hard blast of reality.
Yes, it meant that Southern slave camp elites could no longer take their slaves with them to the UK and expect to be able to take them home again. But it also was the shattering of a long-cherished pretension – that the British saw the colonial slave camp owners as fellow Britons – combined with the knowledge that it was but a harbinger of things to come, that made even the rabidly pro-slavery elite of South Carolina decide to make grudging common cause with the Northern bourgeois they so despised. (And it was a harbinger: Over the next few decades, abolition took hold not just in the UK and its territories, but throughout the Americas.)
@po8crg
About the closest would be that the British had decided that one way to deal with the rebels was to offer freedom to the slaves of rebels if they joined the British army. Many slaves did. The Treaty of Paris insisted that all property (including slaves) be returned though many slaves who had joined and been freed were not returned by the British. Guy Carleton, the British Commander in New York (where many of the former slaves were employed by the British), was blunt with George Washington about the matter; he was not going to break faith with the former slaves, when he was evacuating loyalists from New York to elsewhere (mostly Nova Scotia). The former slaves excavated include three that had been owned by Washington.
The web site http://www.blackloyalist.info/ (controlled by the University of Sydney) has some interesting info.
@phoenixwoman
Note the US also had a homegrown anti-slavery movement heavily pushed by John Woolman (1720-1772). Pennsylvania was fairly early in abolishing slavery (though only for residents not visitors).
Note that many in Britain had no problem with the slave trade or slavery and profited from the West Indian plantation system even if they couldn’t have slaves in England proper (this btw included the Church of England’s missionary society which owned a plantation and at least one bishop).
Pen @9
No, that’s not correct. The Confederate flag has been a symbol of opposition to civil rights since the 1940s. It was never neutral.
There are many people who claim that it’s about heritage and nostalgia but they are lying.
That’s why so many people display it who are not descended from Confederates and don’t live in former Confederate states. They display it to signal racism which is not limited to any geographical area.
If I recall correctly, Thomas Jefferson took Sally Hemings to England, where she was legally free and could not be forced to return. He somehow persuaded her to return to Virginia.
And, yeah, Texas. Another bunch who twice rebelled for the freedom to own other people.
Lincoln campaigned against the expansion of slavery. This is why southerners voted against him.
Just going to mention this – I live in a small town in northern Canada. While a lot of us up here have progressive political views, it’s still fairly socially conservative. I’ve actually seen the Confederate flag around town and I don’t think the bearers can use the whole “regional pride” excuse. When a southerner flies the flag, they at least have a certain degree of plausible deniability. When a Canadian flies the flag, they’re pretty much just announcing to the world that they’re racist assholes.
If the “stars and bars” is there to remind Southerns about their heritage, then they should also remember when they threw a temper tantrum over owning people that got hundreds of thousands of Americans killed
For that matter, why aren’t they flying a union jack?
That’s also part of their heritage, amirite?
Thanks for the welcome, Tethys.
I’m not the newest of residents, though. I moved here seven years ago but the east and west thing still throws me sometimes. Yeah, the “South Minneapolis” thing still makes no sense to me but I do know were Uptown is because that’s where I currently hang my hat. ;) Funny thing is, I can make my way around on city streets just fine. It’s connecting the words “east” and “west” with highway signs and ramps that sometimes sends me into confusion.
Funny thing is, it’s waaaaay easier to navigate here than on the East Coast. Most everything here is on a grid. On a sunny day, I just look at my watch, look at the sun, and I have a pretty good idea where I’m going by the position of the sun in the sky. Just don’t ask me to attach the words “east” or “west” to the direction I’m driving in. :P
magistramarla
21 June 2015 at 5:19 pm
“I’ve been seeing more and more confederate flags being flown from the backs of pick-ups or used as stick-on displays on pick-ups in Texas. With every controversy, there are more of them.
The redneck son-in-law, who grew up in Texas, had one plastered on one wall of his garage when he was stationed in Arkansas.
I also often wonder about the Texas flag, which is flown everywhere here. I was told that it is the only state flag that can be flown on the same level as the US flag because it used to be the flag of a separate country. There are quite a few businesses around here that don’t fly a US flag, but do fly a Texas flag. I’ve often wondered if this is a signal that the owner of the business is a secessionist.
In my opinion, once Texas signed on as a state, the rules about flying the flag of that state should have been subject to all of the rules observed by other states, without exception. I feel that the southern states were given too many privileges after the end of the Civil War and now they are flaunting them.”
Texans are seriously messed-up, and I’m a sixth generation Texan. Seriously seriously messed-up. The Texas mythos is insidious.
Meh. The treason doesn’t bother me near as much as the racism.
With this notion, PZ fails to realize that it doesn’t matter weather the flag was from the winners or losers side. It’s a god damn flag. It doesn’t matter by itself.
What if the confederacy would have won the war? Would that make the flag, or what it stands for, any better?
No. There you go.
With this notion, PZ fails to realize that it doesn’t matter if the flag was from the winners or losers side. It’s a god damn flag. It doesn’t matter by definition.
What if the confederacy would have won the war? Would that make the flag, or what it stands for, any better? Is there any reason to celebrate the Union banner?
No, there isn’t. There you go.
Also, I might have some understanding problems when people say the civil war was about slavery, but this is how I see it.
It was surely the reason to war by the way politics worked (two presidents elected by the division line) , but let’s face it, if the south would have rejected “their” president and wouldn’t have quit the union, does anyone here SERIOUSLY believes the North would have waged war to end slavery in the south?
I think the south could have gone on and on with slavery for 30+ years and the question of slave state vs. non-slave state would have been fought in every new state joining the union one by one and nobody would have done anything about slavery itself.
I have a serious problem in accepting the idea that young productive white men from the North would agree to give up their life just to liberate all the black people in the South, in the 19th century.
I’d also heavily doubt they would do that today. I might be wrong about the previous things i said about US history, but this last statement is sadly pretty much what we see today, albeit in another form.
What does that have to do with anything?
The south seceded and fired shots on Fort Sumpter because Lincoln was elected, and Lincoln didn’t support the expansion of slavery to new states.
The south wanted to preserve and expand slavery, so they seceded, started a country to protect the institution of slavery, and started a war to ensure that that aim would succeed.
The south started the war over slavery.
The north fought the war to preserve the union. The fact that the average union soldier wasn’t does nothing to change the fact…
…that the war was about slavery. Started to protect and expand slavery, fought by those who started it to preserve slavery. The war was about slavery. The DEFENSE against that war was a defense against that war, for many reasons.
If someone wants to steal your wallet and pulls a gun on you and you run and they shoot you, the shooting was over your wallet – it was NOT a dispute about jogging.
Edit: “The fact that the average union soldier wasn’t (thinking about slavery) does nothing to change the fact…”
μολὼν λαβέ
matthewheath @57:
Molon labe? Seriously? Is this the hill you want to die on, the one where you’re defending the flag of historical oppression and shame?
@badgersdaughter Um I meant “let the Virginian governer who asked for it loan of it come try to come and take what his state was justly deprived of (and sulk off when the first museum guard stops them)”. Who else would I be laconically telling to come and get something?
@badgersdaughter; Oh I see, it could be read as “Come and get the flags *not* displayed as trophies (we will be waiting”. Yeah, no. It was ill chosen reference in retrospect. The United States government should do the non-ironic version of “come and get it” to any confederate flags on State government property.
Ha, OK. I thought for a moment you were being ironic, but I have a brief and sordid history of being a libertarian in Texas, and all I think of when I see that phrase is its use by humorless gun “rights” fanatics and reality-detached “Republic of Texas” advocates. Fair enough.
#19, jacksprocket
Huh, funny you should say that. I always associated the old cross of st. george with english racists (as nothing says ‘english patriot’ like ‘roman soldier of greek descent’, I guess). Maybe I’m just out of touch, though.
The st. George cross is the flag of choice for English racists and fascists these days, but on the other hand they do also have an adorable (/s, if it needs saying) old skinhead chant as part of their rich and vibrant cultural heritage: “There ain’t no black in the union jack.”
I just found this floating around facebook. My page needs a shower now. It’s from a page called The Virginia Flaggers. The comments are about what you expect. Read at your own risk. I’ve heard many of these from people I know, and people I wish I didn’t know. Wait…those may be the same people.
Off-topic, look at that successful (according to preview) big-ass blockquote! W00T!
‘ …“the most beautiful” flag on the planet!!…’ I may be wron but thought that was the one with the Swastika on it!
Also Erp @ 43 ‘Church of England’s missionary society which owned a plantation and at least one bishop’
I really like the idea of them owning a bishop, they probably found him very useful.
@4 Marcus Ranum
Well, if you want to really be precise, the first government set up by the founders lasted less than two decades, and their second effort lasted less than Lincoln’s famous “four score” line (it was only 72 years between the first presidential election and the start of the US civil war).
Yes, an “indivisible” and enduring union set up by flawless geniuses indeed. /s
When I lived in West Virginia, there was a house that always had a Confederate flag flying outside. I wanted so badly to knock on the door and ask “Are you aware you’re in WEST Virginia?”
I once heard this downplay of the Civil War presented as a conversation between a Union soldier and a Conefederate soldier.
Union guy: Why are you fighting for slavery?
Confed guy: No, we’re fighting cuz you’re here attackin us.
so, yeah, if you look at the war only from the viewpoint of individual soldiers, and totally disregard the total ramifications, I can then sympathize with the Confed guy’s attitude. Assuming the confed guy was left completely ignorant of why the Union guys were invading. If I could jump in a TARDIS and go talk to the Confed, I’d tell him he might want to look into that Sumtner event and who started the whole “kerfuffle”.
=
re Union Jack:
I vaguely remember something about the current UK flag being an overlay of several flags: England, Scotland, & Ireland. Thus the “union” in Union Jack (‘jack’ being slang for ‘symbol’)
I know I should google it, but I’ll ask here anyway (easier): Is that vague memory correct?
OK, it’s a saltire; but that’s not a St. Andrew’s cross. St. Andrew’s cross is very specifically a white saltire on a blue background. So no, I’m not willing to concede that it is Christian in origin, unless every damn thing with anything even vaguely resembling a cross, regardless of the orientation of said cross, is Christian in origin. And it sure as fuck isn’t Celtic.
As for their “Anglo-Celtic background”; what? I’m assuming these people are very proud of their English heritage, in which case, unless they come from Cornwall, they almost certainly don’t have any Celtic blood whatsoever.
I think Anglo-Celtic refers also to Irish and Scottish ancestry, and, many white southerners did indeed have Irish and Scottish ancestors and were proud of it. The St. Andrews cross bit (even if the wrong color) would emphasize the Scottish side.
Erp
Ireland too, St Patrick having a saltire: gules on argent.
BTW on the Union Flag the saltires of St Andrew and St Patrick are the reason that the flag can be flown upside down!!
Jafafa Hots @22:
Sounds a lot like the NRA, only with slaves instead of guns.
?? *THE* Civil War was really about slavery??
<garble> <glg> <gggg>.
I read it was The Third Wave of Civilization: representing “industrial” overturning “agrarian” society; with the Union as industrial and the Confeds as agrarians. Slavery was just a subsidiary issue as being one of the tools the agrarians used, that the industrials had to take from the agrarians.
pfffft. That was just some glib apologia for the war to avoid the slavery issue… ;-(
Did any of the majority rule Reconstruction state governments have a distinctive flag? I’d be willing to fly one…….
If you look at the letters of Confederate soldiers, they generally mention preservation of slavery as their reason for fighting. Slave owners were significantly over-represented in the Confederate army compared to the general population, and this holds true for enlisted men as well as officers.
@41 phoenixwoman
The French/Haitian revolution must have been a hard blast or reality to the power of a thousand.
For what it’s worth, according to the Huffington Post, Dylann Roof was a member of St. Paul’s Lutheran Church, an ELCA congregation (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). The ELCA isn’t known to be a hotbed of Christian fundamentalism or white nationalism. Rather, the ELCA tends to be one of the more liberal branches of Lutheranism. For example, the ELCA voted to allow the ordination of people in same sex relationships in 2009.
Ironically, two of the people who were shot by Roof had graduated from ELCA seminaries:
It’s looks unlikely that Roof’s motivation to engage in this terrible act was centered upon religion.
With liberty and justice for all (white men)
Dear PZ Meyers:
Please don’t make giant images of racist symbols your post headline images :[ I (and I’m sure others) read your blog at work primarily, and it is reeeeaaallllly awkward having to explain why there is a giant racist flag on my screen when people walk by. Or, worse, I’m afraid someone might have walked behind me today without saying anything, seen it, and just assumed I’m a racist without inquiring about it.
I get it that you are making a point, it would just be a little more work safe to put images like that inside the post below the breakpoint where I won’t flash it on my screen every time I go to F5 your blog for new posts. I guess if you never intended for your blog to be work safe, I am out of line asking this :) Sorry in advance if that is the case.
Just to note: The east side of Minneapolis (Northeast and Southeast) is on the same side of the river (although a little to the west) as St. Paul.
It’s interesting how far the pop culture influence of that flag goes. Yesterday I saw a photo of a Korean pop singer with a Confederate flag patch on his jacket. He probably has zero clue of its history, just that foreign pop and rock musicians have used it, and it has some supposed link to rebellion.
I found that picture while looking for pictures of guitars with the flag on it. I knew that more than one guitar maker has offered guitars in that finish, and was curious to see what well known musicians have played them. US pop culture has done a pretty good job of whitewashing its meaning, and that hiding of meaning has led others to use it as well.
I’m always ready to concede that the North didn’t give a rat’s ass about abolishing slavery until it became politically convenient to do so. This does nothing to undermine the notion that the South was fighting to retain slavery, and in fact, to do so at the expense of “state’s rights” (not only did the various founding documents insist upon slavery as a perpetual institution, the CSA’s central document forbade secession by member states).
So the best the supporters of the CSA ‘heritage’ can argue is that they were on the wrong side of a Gray vs. Dark Morality war.
@ timberwraith
I’m from Minneapolis and I had no idea that Calhoun was named after such an awful person. Thanks for the history lesson.
The irony of all the white bigots complaining that slavery was a long time ago and that it’s time to forget about it
while they fly the flag of their slave holding ancestor for the “heritage” pisses me off.
roachiesmom @64,
I have to say, most of those look to me like reasons not to fly the Confederate battle flag. Anyway, that noted Yankee liberal Nikki Haley wants the flag removed. I guess there are still a few Republicans out there capable of feeling at least some shame.
Thumper @69,
If you’re using “blood” in its common metaphoric sense of “ancestry”, then any white English person almost certainly has Celtic blood.
The Germanic invaders displaced the language, not the people (a very common pattern in history).
Amendment to me @ 86,
What the BBC article indicates is that most English people are descendents of Celtic-speaking natives from before the Germanic invasions, not that they are “Celtic” in any purely racial sense (if such a thing can even be said to exist).
What a Maroon @85:
Finally:
That’s from October of last year. I’m thinking she should have talked to citizens of the state instead of just CEOs.
You know whoever said this has never set foot outside of the U.S. At best the flag is a universal symbol associated with the “wild west” cowboy culture outside of the U.S.
A stark reminder that for some, the war never ended.
Neo-confedarates whine on about their oppression and heritage but scream bloody murder and tell black to let go of it when the subject of slavery and Jim Crow is brought up as part of black heritage. No one cries about the past more than white bigots from the South.
Aaaah, well: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/charleston-shooting-south-carolina-governor-nikki-haley-reflects/
By heal, I presume she means silence it until the non-southern population finds something else to whine and moan about and moves on, so we can sweep this under a rug and fly that flag. Because reasons.
She just a few days ago was against it. Methinks her national political aspirations got the better of her ( and Lindsay Graham). Living in Charleston I’ve watched them skirt this issues for most of the time since the shooting and outright deny for years before. I’m glad they’re supporting it but am under no illusions that it’s for the right reasons.
But, Rev. BigDumbChimp, she wants our state to heal.
Surely she is totes sincere about that, right?
Healing often involves a scab.
A big, thick, crusty scab.
Covering a bloody pus-pocket.
Is that what she’s after?
Well, now you’re just picking on her.
@ What A Maroon #86
Thanks for that; that was really interesting. Everything I’ve read previously indicated that the Anglo-Saxons displaced the native Britons, forcing them to migrate to Wales and the far SW of the Island. It actually makes far more sense that they intermingled, though I’m surprised that it happened to the extent indicated by the study. Certainly the people of Wales and Cornwall retained their identity as Britons for far longer, but I suppose that just goes to prove that identity is about self-perception more than anything else.
I’m really surprised that the Danes left so little genetic trace in Northern England; that runs directly counter to everything I thought I knew about the Danish “invasion”. I was under the impression that permanent settlement and intermingling were the order of the day. I am also surprised that the Normans left almost no trace. I expected it to be low, since there really weren’t that many of them and they essentially just replaced the existing Anglo-Saxon nobility without mingling with the common folk, but to hear that there is almost none is surprising when there are so many English surnames derived from Norman ones.
I am, however, willing to bet money that the idiot flag-defenders are completely unaware of this study.
Surely. Her mentions as a possible VP running mate material have nothing to do with it. Zero. Nope.
And Lindsay Graham’s presidential run either.
Seriously though, their statements in the last few days have been so god damn mealy mouthed diversionary nonsense it is disgusting.
And Tim Scott, he has no shame. Of any of the Republicans he should have been up front. But he waited until he knew it was politically safe to make his statement.
What is really “funny” is that anyone (that is, a racist of the worst kind) in the USA can display the flag of Nazi Germany and it is perfectly legal…
By all means, please return the Battle Flag to Virginia, as long as they admit in writing:
Their General Lee was an anti-American traitor and should have been hung from the tallest tree near Appomattox after causing the deaths of so many red-blooded Americans because of his defense of an economic system based upon slavery!
Interestingly i was just asked to be on a BBC radio show about this very subject. Had to decline due to a few meetings. The first few they had on though, terrible ill informed views. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02tv4vy
From an article in The New Yorker:
Of the facts presented in this article by Jelani Cobb, the statistics that belie the “Southern pride” claim made the most sense to me. And, yes, we can simply replace “Southern” with “white” and then the claim makes sense.
Another excerpt from the New Yorker article referenced in comment 101:
Right. The South Carolina Capitol grounds are basically a tribute to white supremacy. Time to put all that stuff in a museum.
Tom Hall is the guy that produced a film about the history of the Confederate flag, with an emphasis on South Carolina.
Governor Haley is backing the move to take the Confederate flag down, but she is not accepting the expansion of Medicaid offered by Obamacare, and she is not addressing the dreadful state of some of the all-black or mostly-black public schools in South Carolina. They are going to take down the symbol of suppression, and then they are going to continue to suppress non-white and/or poor populations.
I read today that the statue of John Calhoun in SC has been defaced, and there is a petition to rename the lake in Minneapolis.
Well, I guess this was predictable: “As states reconsider its role, Confederate flag sales skyrocket 2,300% on Amazon”
Link
Lynna @104:
Thankfully, Amazon has joined Sears, eBay, and Walmart in no longer selling Confederate flag merchandise.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/confederate-flag-walmart-south-carolina/
Here’s a list of South Carolina politicians who do not want to remove the Confederate flag. They are all men, all white, and all Republicans. Their reasons for keeping the flag are summarized below:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/06/23/3672910/south-carolina-lawmakers-publicly-opposed-removing-confederate-flag/
It would seem like some kind of justice if all of those politicians were voted out of office.
Tony @105, Yes, I saw that after I posted the comment. Thanks for the update. Amazon sold a lot of flags and other confederate products before they made the right decision.
So happy to see major corporations getting on board with throwing the Confederate flag overboard.
I like his specificity. Yeah, that particular flag, itself, was not the reason for the heinous murders. True. I agree with the specificity, *but*, it does symbolize the atmosphere of the society that breeds the attitude that led to such an act. Its very existence, and praise, is a form of encouragement for such an attitude. Taking it down, won’t eliminate the problem, but could well lessen it a bit. Incremental improvement only, but big things are achieved with little steps.
at 21, he’s still a “kid”?
yup. Not a racist, .
where have I heard that before? Perry said that, didn’t he?
slithey tove @108:
The way I see it, taking the flag down at the S.C. statehouse (or any other government buildings around the country) won’t eliminate the problem. Would that eliminating racism were that easy. No, it won’t eliminate racism, but just as raising the flag was symbol of white supremacy and a rejection of everything Civil Rights activists sought to achieve, so too would taking it down symbolize a rejection of the racist ideology embodied by the flag.
Its not just those. There are a few who refused to answer. One of which is Senator Mike Fair. You may recognize that name.
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/the-long-defeat-sen-mike-fairs-fight-against-evolution-in-sc-schools/Content?oid=4864627
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-year-old-takes-on-south-carolina-lawmakers-in-fossil-fight/
http://beerofsc.com/2013/05/01/now-what/
@ Slithey Tove #109
I didn’t see the article/piece myself, but my dad was moaning last night about some news story which claimed that Roof’s girlfriend left him for a black guy, and that was the reason he “snapped”.
I think dad was coming at it from his usual “They’ll come up with any excuse for criminals these days *grumble grumble*” (ex-copper; it’s his usual soapbox), but when I responded “Which completely ignores his increasingly well-documented history of racist rants. Sure, it might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but let’s not pretend that his girlfriend dumped him and he became a murderous racist overnight”, he was like “Well yeah, exactly. They completely ignored all of that.”
It seems the media in general are doing their usual murderous White guy schtick and refusing to just call him what he is; a homegrown racist terrorist.
The Nightly Show did a great takedown of pretty much every possible excuse they could have for keeping this flag raised at the capitol. They even brought up a rather major point, why not just take it down and then have a debate about whether or not to put it back UP? I loved the whole bit.
To me, the only reason to show this flag is in a museum, in a civil war history exhibit. It’s entirely justified there, and basically nowhere else. I’ll go one step further (though I’m sure everyone here will agree) and say that private citizens should be allowed to show this flag. I doubt anyone is saying the duke boys should be sued for decorating their car like that.
Actually, if someone is thinking about putting the confederate flag in their lawn, I would encourage them to do so. It’s a nice easy indicator of which neighbors not to talk to.
The swastika is a bit thornier a topic. I once noted that a decorational samurai sword someone was selling at a convention seemed to have a swastika design for the grip guard. That person told me, in no uncertain terms, that he found that comparison offensive because that’s actually a much older symbol for various Buddhist concepts of peace and so on, and later I looked it up and confirmed it. I’m not exactly sure which side to take on that one. On the one hand, yes, it has a much longer history and nazis basically stole the symbolism for their own movement. But, on the other hand, the nazis DID in fact succeed in that theft. Much like tiny mustaches and raised flat hands, that symbol is forever tainted in most people’s minds, and I would be willfully ignorant to try and convince myself that the average person “should” see it as anything other than a symbol of hate. (There’s also some semantics about which direction the angles of the swastika are going in, but really, I don’t think anyone thinks about that when they see the symbol.) Certainly, if you’re bald and waving a big black swastika flag around, there’s basically no misunderstanding exactly what version of the symbol you’re trying to use.
@ Dark Jaguar
The swastika was originally a Hindu symbol and was borrowed by Indian Buddhism, and eventually made it’s way into Buddhism as a whole. It denotes something that is auspicious, i.e. a sign of good things to come. It seems to have made it’s way across much of the ancient world; Japanese religion uses it (they call it a manji), and there are examples of it in Greek and Roman art.
I used to be under the impression that the traditional hindu version had the “legs” pointing the opposite direction to the Nazi bastardisation of the symbol; but I’ve since seen many non-Nazi uses of the insignia that have the “legs” pointing the same way. So it looks as though the Nazi’s just nicked it wholesale and didn’t bother changing it at all.
Their use of the symbol actually makes sense; I imagine they were trying to convey that their party would bring about positive change, that things were going to get better for the German people.
The Confederate battle flag isn’t really comparable to the Nazi’s cultural appropriation of a symbol, seeing as it has symbolized since it’s inception organisations which existed purely to defend the institution of slavery.
Agreed. Even with that history in mind, the nazis kinda “won” that fight in that no matter what it originally meant, no matter how hurt whole groups of people might be that their symbol got reappropriated into a symbol of hate (even if it wasn’t the nazi’s intention, like you said), it IS now a symbol of hate, and can never be divorced from that. Good meaning people don’t get to use that symbol that was once cherished any more without knowing the consequences, without hurting others who really couldn’t care less about whatever it may have meant in the past to whole regions of the world. Nostalgia doesn’t trump genocide.
The confederate flag, as you said, NEVER meant anything other than uniting around the institution of slavery and the “right” to deprive others of their rights. In that sense, the confederate flag is oh-so much worse than the swastika, because there IS no positive history to associate with it.
I guess this should be filed under “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day”, but long time “Faux News” commentator Andrew Napolitano wrote an editorial on the Confederate flag memorial yesterday. Imagine my shock to read:
As shocking it is to see a conservative willing to stand on the correct side of this issue , we don’t need to “imagine” any such danger. Just wait for the next time a Republican makes any sort of comment … on any issue … *sigh*