Amanda is discussing the the trial of Dominique Strauss-Kahn and his defense, and I don’t get her main point. Strauss-Kahn is defending his behavior by saying that women want to have sex with him all the time, and he only attends four orgies a year, because he’s a very busy man.
In sum, the charge is that Strauss-Kahn participated in “pimping” by helping pay for sex workers that serviced the multiple orgies that Strauss-Kahn likes to enjoy. Strauss-Kahn can’t deny that he was fond of orgies—I guess the evidence is just overwhelming against him—so instead his defense is that he didn’t know the women at them were sex workers. Chew on that, slowly and carefully, everyone. What Strauss-Kahn wants you to believe is that he is such a sexual dynamo, such a hot piece of ass, that sexy young women are lining up to have sex with him, for free, in public places while his creepy ass friends watch. Here is a photo of him, to help you picture what he’s trying to argue here:
Yes? And? Look at that photo! He’s white. He’s graying. He’s getting old. Those wrinkles are getting deep. He’s putting on a bit of the ol’ poundage. He wears a suit. Forgive me for descending into a bit of descriptive porn there, but isn’t that the sexual ideal? I mean, I would know — after all, that titillating description also fits me perfectly, and there can’t possibly exist a world in which I am not the beaux ideal of sexual charisma, can there?
Although I did feel a tremor in my self-esteem at hearing that Strauss-Kahn attends 4 orgies a year — I haven’t been keeping up with my masculine goals, apparently, and have slipped a bit behind on my schedule. He’s got a little tiny edge over me. By about 4 per year. In my defense, I’ve had a lot of teaching to do. Work cuts into orgy time terribly, as Dominique will tell you.
I saw this a few years back:
Probably my favorite image of Strauss-Kahn.
Not sure I agree on this point. Strauss-Kahn is a rich politicians – while I think he’s full of shit about not hiring sex workers for these orgies, I don’t think you can really say he couldn’t find partners for group sex without it.
Seems to me his story falls apart because he doesn’t have a beard.
Wasn’t it Henry Kissinger who said that power is an aphrodisiac?
Forgive me: I’ve never participated in an orgy, but doesn’t conversation ever feature, before getting down to the sexytimes? You know, stuff like:
“What do you do for a living?”
“I fuck old rich dudes like you while other old rich dudes watch”
Moggie,
I don’t know about DSK, but one time, when I was 18 or so I was invited to a ‘party’ that turned out to be an orgy. Actually, it was a practice orgy for the upcoming costume Halloween orgy. They wanted to make sure everyone was compatible and worked out any issues before hand. Needless to say, I was taken aback when I arrived. I sat in the kitchen with a shot of vodka and declined to participate. I ended up being the person people talked to when they took a break or needed a drink or something. I had some lovely chats with some lovely people. It was all very egalitarian and consent oriented. So probably nothing like a DSK orgy.
So what did he think he way paying for then?
“He’s so ugly he has to buy his sex partners” is not a good argument. It’s barely a step up from grade school insults.
money money money
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q
uncle frogy
Huh. I don’t think I’ve ever been in moderation here before. I wonder what I did?
@8 JS — I agree that the takes on this have toed the line of Age-ism, Look-ism, Fat-shaming. How could an old fat ugly guy get a hot young woman? PZ takes that aspect of it squarely by the horns here. But if you were to re-phrase the question: how could one of the world’s richest and most powerful men, with a track record of sexual assault and sexual harassment, expect people to believe that beautiful young sex workers provide him their services free of charge, despite him not being attractive? In this particular context, him being an old fat ugly guy is actually relevant. And he could undoubtedly attract women with his charisma and worldliness and wit — he just chooses the rich asshole’s shortcut, and, given the preponderance of evidence, the rapist’s shortcut.
Correct. Good thing that’s not the argument.
The actual argument is “I’m so sexy that young women all want to have sex with me.” And it’s being made by Strauss-Kahn, and we’re all laughing at it.
PZ:
I’ve heard that if you take two red pills, that will fix any problems with your masculinity. You might lose some readers though.
Well, Strauss-Kahn was an university teacher, so in your defense, you’re comparing yourself to a colleague.
***
Not that rich: it’s his ex-wife who’s filthy rich: like Sarkozy, DSK was the trophy wife of his couple.
***
Well, you must know how french law and french jurisprudence work: in France, prostitution is legal, but proxenetism isn’t, which means that paying a freelancing prostitute for sex won’t get you sentenced, but paying a prostitute who’s actually enslaved to a pimp will, hence Strauss-Kahn’s line of defense: if the prosecution fails to demonstrate that
1. The prostitute he had sex with were indentured to a pimp.
2. DSK knew that they were, in fact indentured to a pimp
He’ll walk away a free man.
Is it? I can’t find any quote of SK saying that, in either Marcotte’s piece or her source.
There’s plenty to justifiably mock SK about here. SK was not passive in these things; it’s difficult to believe he could have not known. He also referred to them as “equipment,” which undercuts any notion that he thought they were free participating.
His ability to attract sex partners without seeking out prostitutes? Not one of those things.
This sounds a lot like athletes or rock stars who think all women want to have sex with them and can’t comprehend someone saying, “NO!”
Jacob Schmidt, I can’t tell if you’re being intentionally obtuse or not.
You will not find a quote of Strauss-Kahn saying the exact words in quotes there, because he didn’t utter them. You are aware of the concept of paraphrasing, yes? That was a paraphrase of the argument being used in Strauss Kahn’s defense.
The second sentence of the OP states it with different words:
This is a reduced, boiled-down, condensed, simplified (insert other relevant metaphorical term or adjective here) version of the argument his defense is using.
And it is funny, in part because it is unbelievable.
I said nothing about exact words; anything to the effect will do.
Zero orgies in 53 years. What am I doing wrong?
Okay, his defense is bullshit. But what is he accused of? In the first paragraph it says rape, but then it goes “the charge is that Strauss-Kahn participated in “pimping” by helping pay for sex workers”. Is that illegal?
Jacob Schmidt
It’s not about his ability to attract sexual partners. It’s about his ability to attracte dozens of conventionally attractive young women who all show up out of the blue to have sex with him.
Because that’s soething that doesn’t actually happen. To anybody.
Oh, dear. So PZ is old-arrogant-white-man-shaming, is he? Cry piteously for poor Dominique, boys. It’s HAARRRRRRDDDD enough being him without being arrogant-shamed!
Won’t someone please think of the self-esteem of old rich white men? Anyone? Please? Jacob Schmidt cries out for justice.
Well, to be fair, it is a proven fact that young, attractive naked women do throw themselves at him
So…
Paraphrased as…
…really?
Ugh, I’ve just been reading some of Strauss-Kahn’s pronouncements in court, and seriously, the word that comes to mind is ‘scumbag’. The only thing bugging me about PZs post now is how it makes SK come across as just a bit deluded.
By this kind of logic it would be impossible for ugly people like Sarkosy to be able to get into relationships with beatiful models and actresses. Rich and powerful men like Sarkosy and Strauss-Kahn can get lots of women interested in them by virtue of their wealth and political power.
There are other reasons he’s likely to be guilty , but this isn’t one.
Henry Kissinger, like DSK, confused power with money. Apparently, DSK really believed it was his power though.
Ouch, that fall near the beginning looks painful. :-S
Yes, Azkyroth. really. Mwah.
A few years ago during a g8 in montreal DSK was accused by a maid of rape. It ended as all such accusations do; she was the bad guy, he was a victim, and he went of to be rich some more
Fuck that guy
Unconventionally attractive men such as SK (and me) *can* get women to be interested in having sex with them. In my case, it takes time and effort so that they appreciate me for my personality (not that all women do, of course, but sometimes). According to SK, he doesn’t even have to show any personality- he just has to show up.
It may have been a g10 meeting. The (not all) fat balding rich white guys club fluctuates.
Ah yeah, Femen, what’s not to hate about them?
+++
Again: This is not about how guys who are not exactly Idris Elba can never find sexual partners or never find conventionally attractive sexual partners. It’s about the absolute ridiculousness of the claim that tons of conventionally attractive women would just show up to have sex with him without any kind of prior personal contact, getting to know each other in the most superficial sense of the word etc. That kind of thing does not happen in the real world. Not to attractive guys either.
Whether or not Jacob Schmidt’s argument is on point, that is a breathtakingly dishonest characterization of his position.
You used to be better than that.
…..okay, so before I get committed to anything in the DSK thread, I seem to remember Jacob Schmidt being a pretty run-of-the-mill average horde member. Does he have, like, a pre-reform-Walton-style “A History” or something that I’m missing, or…..
(Damnit, wrong tab.)
LOL committed nonetheless.
@Giliell
There are tonnes of examples of attractive young women wanting to have sex with older guys. Rock Stars , actors have orgies with groupies.
The key isn’t your attractiveness. Its having money , power and fame
Yeah PZ,
Maybe they were overcome with lust for him because he has such a sparkling personality.
0.o
But rock stars, actors etc. are famous in the sort of way that young women are likely to be aware of. Also they tend to have the additional attractiveness of ‘cool’ I believe.
Merely being rich and powerful may be attractive to some, but the idea that a collection of women with no previous contact will all at once conceive of going and having sex with him, without even preliminaries is stretching the limits of probability.
Not to mention DSK has already been accused at least once of sexual assault and his defence was literally “this immigrany maid wanted me so much like damn dawg i be hot and now shes just lying to gey my money”
Anyone who thinks this is literally and only that old fat guys can never ever get conventionally attractive women is either being purposefully obtuse or a fucking moron
johnny d @ 39:
No, you’re looking at it the wrong way around. When it comes to rock stars or actors, attractiveness is all – these are professions that pretty much demand attractiveness. When it comes to an old white man, who isn’t terribly attractive physically, and not attractive personality wise, but has power and money, there’s a different dynamic. You won’t find young, hot women throwing themselves at the old guy for sex. You might find a few women playing for more though, as in a long term relationship which provides a lot of material benefit, or marriage with lots of material benefit.
Ariaflame @41
Because young women only care about music and movies?
DSK’s defense is “I didn’t know they were prostitutes.” That’s ludicrous given the circumstances and evidence. His physical attractiveness, as Giliell rightly points out, is a red herring.
I agree, DSK’s defense makes no sense, for reasons orthogonal to the way he looks. Yet the way he looks was a focus of Marcotte’s piece, and is the only focus in the OP.
Odd that a red herring gets so much attention.
Caine @43: I disagree. Counter-examples: Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, who even these days make ladies swoon despite years of drug-soaked hard life which is quite visible on their faces. Some people simply have charisma, which is only weakly connected to physical appearance. As has been mentioned, Henry Kissinger is another example.
On the other hand, DSK:s protestations should IMHO be taken with a large grain of salt. If true, his claim would confess to lack of situational awareness quite unacceptable for an official of his level and stature.
On the gripping hand, as a civil libertarian I fail to see why someone’s taste for having sex parties or hiring prostitutes in his private life should have significance with his office or duties. The Whole thing smacks of political dirty tricks, employed to successfully get the man fired from his office in order to get a more “suitable” candidate to the job.
Rock stars and actors do have lots of fans. Some of those fans are happy to have sex with them (and some of them get raped and blamed for it). Failed politicians, not so much…
mirrorfield
That’s a nice conspiracy theory you have here. Wouldn’t be a shame if reality happened to it, like the fact that DSK hasn’t had any kind of political office since 2012? He has two jobs with rather dubious financial institutions. I doubt they give a fuck about whom he fucks.
Also, first of all, hiring prostitutes isn’t illegal in France. Hiring prostitutes from pimps is illegal. Second, whether you agree with those laws or not, they exist and he didn’t give a shit about them. I’m sick and tired of rich men exploiting women getting away with it.
Fun thing: I met the guy once, and have a couple of acquaintances who knew him personally: from both my experience and theirs, when he’s not letting “Francis” in the driver seat, he is a bright, charming fellow.
***
I’d hardly call a guy who led the FMI and was on fast tracks to become France’s president before the Sofitel arrest a failed politician.
laurentweppe
Well, his career took a deep dive from that point on, I’d call that fail.
Just based on my own personal experience as a Gay man, men of any sexual orientation are apt to be more delusional about their sexual prowess as they grow older, especially if they are over 50. We just seem to be looking into a very distorted mirror that reflects not what we are but what we want to be. Is there something in the water?