I’m not a fan of Taylor Swift — that bouncy squeaky-clean all-American stuff just leaves me cold. But I am a big fan of Trent Reznor, because there’s nothing better on a road trip than cranking up some throbbing industrial beats as you’re cruising down the road, and I like a gritty raw sound. But who would have guessed that mashing up a duet would be so interesting? Injecting a bit of corruption and rot into the pure paleness of a Taylor Swift song is surprisingly listenable.
Now if only we could get absinthe here in Morris.
We have it in Milwaukee — Lucid 750ml runs about $60. Enjoyed a glass last night.
Ha, that was kind of fun. And Taylor Swift managed to make fun of herself.
Nice! Is this by the same people who did the previous mashup of “Head like a hole” / “Call me maybe”?
if only we could get absinthe here in Morris.
I believe you ought to be able to get it pretty much anywhere in the US. The old story that the wormwood in it got you high was an urban legend. There might be a placebo effect but that’d be about it. When I was researching the topic a few years ago, it turned out that a lot of the “absinthe drinkers” of yore were also dissolving opium in it along with the sugar. So they were consuming, basically, high-test laudanum, which is definitely going to have a psychotropic effect. The Rimbaud/Apollinaire/Baudelaire/Breton set were fond of washing down pea-sized pellets of opium with alcohol … I can’t possibly make a connection between alcohol/opiate use and surrealism but I keep trying.
(And since I’m on the history of early drug abuse and art, Humprey Davy, who synthesized nitrous oxide and discovered its anaesthetic and hallucinogenic effect wrote a whole text entitled “O excellent air bag…” and apparently had nitrous huffing sessions with/for a number of prominent victorians including Shelley and Keats. http://publicdomainreview.org/2014/08/06/o-excellent-air-bag-humphry-davy-and-nitrous-oxide/ )
You know what they say: Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.
[Ducks]
So, it took Pharyngula to get me to finally listen to a song by that young woman. At least that i’m aware…
@arids:
More likely?
Though if I’m the tart in question,
is even more likely.
Thank you PZ and neaureligion. Head blown.
On the subject of dangerous drinks, Oliver Morton writes of a scientist who enjoyed methanol martinis. It was perfectly safe, the scientist maintained, as long as you had a good supply of folic acid on hand.
(Ref: Eating the Sun by Oliver Morton, page 47)
I’ve got some Absinthe here (Lance l’eau). Maybe if I had some I could make sense of what the feck it is I just watched?
Scientific American, in June 1989, published an article Abstinthe on its toxic effects — one of the symptoms was hallucinations — and the reasons for the ban.
Makes some degree of sense. What I don’t understand is the point of drinking methanol at all; was this for some kind of thrill?
It really enjoyed the juxtaposition of him putting a woman on a pedastal and her song being about basically not giving a fuck.
I’m with azhael on this one.
I gave up halfway through — that sort of beat rarely agrees with me, for some reason.
CD@7,
I think we have a good start on a Country Western lyric there.
So then where does the Green Fairy thing come from?
I had a friend recommend “Shake it off ” to me as an example of her growing maturity. I listened to it, and I still didn’t like. After a while I realised why, all her songs are about her. And the problem is that she’s about as interesting as someone who has grown up in a bubble of money. She has no real life experience per say, other than a single minded pursuit of a music career, and a line of seedy douche bag exs who are either big name actors, or singers.
You can make your own absinthe, especially true if you have access to lab glassware. http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/a/absinthe_2.htm
Scans thread…hasn’t been said…gathers breath…
“NINE INCH NAILS IS NAWT ENDUSTRIAL ZOMGHATERAGE!!!2121!!!11!!!@”
I really enjoyed her song and the video for “Blank Space”.
Especially the lyrics:
Grab your passport and my hand
I can make the bad guys good for a weekend
Her recent album is very self-aware, and she winks at her perceived “innocence” throughout the entire album.
It’s great fun.
I like Taylor Swift a lot, actually. She’s got a great attitude. She doesn’t care if she comes off as silly. And what’s so wrong with that, anyway?
Anything absinthe can cure, more absinthe can cure better…
What I don’t understand is the point of drinking methanol at all; was this for some kind of thrill?
It’s been a while since I read the book, but IIRC this was just one eccentric scientist.
I like Shake It Off. I didn’t particularly enjoy whatever this was. Maybe absinthe would have helped.
@neaureligion: that NIN/Carly Rae Jepsen mashup is glorious. But now it’s stuck in my head…
gijoel
Ugh, I hate how “growing maturity” for young white women pop stars includes “being edgy” though racist cultural appropriation.
Taylor Swift’s racsim in Shake It Off by Owining My Truth, which also has things to many (hell, most?) similar pop stars pulling the same bullshit.
There is a bar & restaurant in San Francisco called The Absinthe.
One can choose from several brands of absinthe, ranging from moderately priced to mind-blowingly expensive.
The bar tenders make quite a show of preparing your drink for you, and paired with one of the kitchen’s signature soups (I like the cauliflower soup made with champagne and the pumpkin soup in season), there is much deliciousness to be had.
Man. I miss California!
I didn’t find the song itself particularly racist but when viewed through the lens of that stupid video?
Perhaps one can call it “rapface”?
The first time that I heard a Taylor Swift song was several years ago when my students were listening to her. At that time, I thought that she sounded like a whiny teen-ager. My opinion has not changed.
Dancing is the perfect drug. But I digress.
Don’t know much about Taylor Swift, but liked that she’s a bit goofy in the video, she doesn’t take herself too seriously.
Well, if your going to damn all “white” music inspired from African American sources, you’re going to have to flush virtually all popular music in the last two centuries, including (but certainly not limited to) the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Elvis, Benny Goodman, George Gershwin, Paul Whiteman, and Stephen Foster.
This mash-up isn’t really surprising – both Trent Reznor and Taylor Swift are very familiar with the American Pop idiom.
My favorite example is the chorus from “Closer” : the attention grabbing line “I wanna fuck you like an animal” sets up the change to the IV chord (which arrives on the word “animal”), a totally catchy, poppy harmonic movement. It’s thematically dissonant and I love it.
A momentary lapse…:
I can’t stop listening to it!
moarscienceplz
And it’s time that we stopped. Really, are we white people so completely without talent that we have to take stuff from all other people, make it “ours” and then pretend to be much better at it than the original artists?*
And as a first step, can we stop using black women as hypersexualized props?
*I’ve heard that if you say “Macklemore” three times in a row you’ll get a sunburn while
sitting in a dark room
+++
I’ll still admit that I think that “shake it off” is a fun song
Not gonna lie, I love Taylor Swift.
She (or her songwriter?) has a great understanding of the pacing curve of music: introduce the beats and melodies, build up to an early climax, drop into a quiet bit, then bring it all back for the last verse. It’s formulaic, but some things are better for that. Kitschy pop music is one of those things.
I generally don’t like the lyrics as much (Romeo And Juliet is an obvious guilty pleasure), but Shake It Off is a notable exception. That song was basically my theme song during the whole Gamergate fiasco. The chorus lyrics could practically have been written for Anita Sarkeesian.
Giliell #32
No art is made in a vacuum. Each new piece builds on what came before. And it hasn’t been a one-way street, either. Jazz was invented by African Americans by combining African music with European classical elements. If it wasn’t for the Beatles and the rest of the “British Invasion”, nobody would have ever heard of Jimi Hendrix. The popularity of Elvis and other white Rock and Rollers opened space for Motown Records to gain sales to whites. Pink Floyd was named after two African American blues musicians, Pink Anderson and Floyd Council. Lionel Hampton’s career was launched by Benny Goodman.
moarscienceplz
The fuck are you going on about? I may a very specific claim with a link that had fuck all to do with destroying everything white people made while being inspired by POC. (Of course, you can be inspired by them without harming them or cultural appropriation, but white people are apparently lacking in imagination, talent and ability. lol)
Did you read the motherfucking link? Here’s a shorter one, maybe it’ll help. Or hell, actually watch the video in the OP where she uses black people and their culture as props, and the black women are faceless, sexual objects? The contrast is striking when you view her whole official video. This is Miley Cryus’s VMA performance by white girl’s favorite “good girl” with millions of views and getting airplay everyday.
This isn’t “being inspired by”, this is lifting other people’s culture (or caricatures of it) and using it for their own gain, which gets applauded while POC and their culture are harmed by it and for the exact same attributes whites are stealing.
Here’s another link from Your Fave Is Problematic, and here’s a more detailed account of her slut-shaming still going on. Of course, she’s a feminist after friend Lena Dunham (ugh, did you know her Wiki doesn’t even mention her abusing her sister and only makes a passing remark about her being off twitter because of “personal attacks”? (I looked it up because the name was familiar and thought it was the Girls person and wanted to verify)) “introduced her to what real feminism is about”. So, it’s a lot of what’s fucking wrong with white feminism.
And now there’s a rich (her parents are rich and funded her career so she didn’t make it on her own and she speaks a lot of “If you only work hard enough” classist bullshit), white pop star proudly claiming to be feminist (unlike Katy and such last I heard) and instead of being happy and excited, I’m just really tired and sad.
Oh crap, forgot the link on the quote “introduced her to what real feminism is all about”.
quasar
On the link for the feminism quote right about your quote there’s a link that verifies she writes her own songs and Swift pointing out it’s sexist that women get those questions but men don’t and are automatically believed on writing their own shit.
JAL #35
Yes, I saw the original (unmashed) TS video. I saw a lot micro bursts of people of various races doing music and dancing of a lot of different styles. Yes, I read the link you provided and I don’t buy it. It’s not true that the twerking women are faceless. There are a number of shots where their faces are seen. And if anyone has a problem with black women twerking, I’d say you should yell at Sir Mix-a-Lot before Taylor Swift.
moarscienceplz
Really? You see their faces when they’re ass first to the camera and Swift is crawling through their legs?
And yeah, black feminist totes have a problem with black women twerking. That’s why they hate Minaj’s Anaconda video too! /sarc
The difference is in the details and the portrayals, dipshit.
moarscienceplz @ 37
This is a video in which Taylor Swift sings the phrase “good hair” while pointing at her head. That phrase has a very specific meaning, but, gosh, it probably just means somebody has nicely styled hair. And then there are extreme closeups on the twerking asses of black dancers, cutting off their heads and humanity and reducing them to fetishized body parts. These same sorts of shots are not used on white dancers.
But, no. Let us not discuss this racist appropriation and othering on the part of a white woman. Let us not consider the full historical, cultural context here. There’s a black man we could blame instead.
Ah, thanks, I probably should have checked rather than putting in that question. Taylor Swift then has an impressive grasp of the pacing of music, whether consciously or intuitively.
Just for the record, I tend ask that question of all solo act musicians when I’m uncertain, simply to ensure I’m giving credit where it’s due. But in hindsight, it’s probably quite unnecessary.
The line in the lyrics is:
And to the fella over there with the hella good hair
Won’t you come on over, baby? We can shake, shake, shake
moarscienceplz, good hair. There’s a context here in society. The words aren’t just random words, but ones that have a specific meaning to them. Do I think she used it maliciously? No. I think it was a part of an internal rhyme that fit the flow of the verse. There’s still a hell of a lot of baggage on that phrase and I’d urge caution about using it.
Why don’t you address the other points JAL has made? There’s more to consider here than a single line in a single song.
JAL changed targets. The original accusation was that this video was racist and appropriated unfairly from African American artists, not that TS is a terrible person and she’s sexist and she probably condones child abuse.
The charges of racism stem from examining each frame and each word as an entity unto itself rather than looking at the whole production, IMO. As for appropriation, if TS had been lurking in the back of obscure clubs looking for material HER audience had never seen before, and then had done this video without attribution, yes that would be appropriation. But nobody thinks she invented hip-hop culture or twerking. She’s a pop musician, and pop musicians by definition do what is popular at the moment.
If the (original) charge had been that the video was sexist, in particular the twerking scenes, I wouldn’t have objected. Personally, I think the video would better without the twerkers.
This conversation reminds me of a time I was in a Jazz club. An African American man standing next to me asked, “What’s the name of this song?”. I said, “It’s called ‘Watermelon Man'”, because that’s the name given to it by its composer, Herbie Hancock, an African American man. The man got tense, and then felt the need to tell me that he doesn’t even LIKE watermelon. What could I do? The man asked a question, and I gave him the true answer in a totally ordinary way. I knew why he was upset, and I knew it would not help to tell him to calm down, because this wasn’t about him. He FELT attacked, but in fact nobody was attacking him.
moarscienceplz
Wait, what? That’s not what I said. I did say she demonstrates with lots of white feminism being fucking racist and still slut shaming (it’s a hard habit to break, often times you don’t even realize it). I brought up Dunham part because calling out problematic shit is important and it was an aside hence the fucking parenthesis. I saw that she declares herself feminist so I wanted an article to confirm and link it because that’s important information and as to not make it seem like I was saying she’s a terrible person. That’s where the Dunham bit came in, which I hadn’t even know before.
But I kept on the orginal accusation with more links and responding to you. Nothing else has been said except my one time fyi mention.
You fucking asshat. You claim I change targets and then drop the “cultural” from “cultural appropriation” to make it seem like a copyright issue. Fuck you.
And what’s popular is racism and cutlural appropriate. See: Miley Cyrus, Katy Party, Lillen Allen, Kei$ha, etc.etc.
Twerking itself isn’t sexist. In fact, Minaj’s Anaconda as previously mentioned is fucking fantastic feminism.
Part of racism POC women face is being used as sexual objects so yes, it was sexist and racist in a way only POC women face.
Fucking duh.
I’m pretty sure most of you wanted Vin Mariani anyway. Not only was it endorsed by a Catholic Pope and various statesmen, it’s also still illegal.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness @ 24;
I don’t really follow pop music overmuch, but the whole business with this video gave me an unpleasant insight into my own unearned and insuffciently examined white privilege. When that horribly sexist Robin Thicke song was so popular a few months ago, my first thoughts upon exposure to it were immediately that it was grossly sexist, and that its creator was… let’s just say a misogynist arsehat (my actual thought process was somewhat less polite). Spotting the various examples of sexism and the not very well hidden rape apologia subtext was not at all difficult for me, and the whole experience left me disgusted that such bigoted dreck could pass as music at all.
What is worrying for me is that, when I encountered the controversy over the Taylor Swift video a few months later, I didn’t spot the bigotry anything like as quickly or easily. I have despised ‘twerking’ and everything it has come to represent about modern music and popular culture’s attitude toward women ever since I first became aware of the term, so spotting that sexism was easy enough, but other than that the video’s problematic nature initially largely went over my head. It was only after listening to some of the critiques and taking some time to think about it that I realised the ways in which the video appropriated and exoticised the bodies of women of colour while eliminating their humanity, and the ways in which Swift was using cultural markers associated with minority cultural and social expression as costumes during the video.
The fact that it was present amongst several other mini-vingettes of outfits drawn from many different forms of music may have helped camoflage the effect, but it still should have been glaringly obvious to me that adopting clothing and mannerism from other mostly white music sources like the bit she does on European electro, or forms that are largely unassociated with any particular ethnic grouping, like the interpretive dance stuff, is fundamentally different from similarly appropriating icons and imagery from the cultural lexicons of marginalised groups, not to mention that the black backing dancers were not shot or treated at all in the same way as the white ones, and the whole crawling through the legs thing, which would be at best creepy in any scenario but is also specifcally racist in this set of circumstances.
This is hardly subtle stuff, and yet I missed it entirely. It is a little scary to realise how privilege blind I really am.
About the video I have little to add but about absinthe…
I concur with Marcus Ranum #4 – derailed here:
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2015/01/29/lounge-489/comment-page-2/#comment-911344
Taylor Swift, always easy on the eyes, but always a bit too perfect, comes up a few notches in my eyes. Perhaps all part of the act but she looks like she was enjoying herself. There just might be hope for her.
Yes, the criticism about the nature of her songs being narcissistic is true. But then again, consider her target demographic. They tend toward narcissism and enjoy songs that cater to that viewpoint. It will be interesting to see where Taylor Swift goes in the next ten years or so. She is starting to get a little long in the tooth to be passionately singing about boy/girlfriend issues. She can still pull it off, with ever diminishing returns, for a few more years but it has already started to appear strained.
Taking herself a little less seriously may be a real, or professionally planned, repositioning and shift from the princess phase toward a more mature branding.
moarscienceplz
Nobody has a problem with black women twerking as black women happily shaking their ass off. We have a problem with black women being used as a sexualized prop.
No, the “pop culture” definition and “art always is inspired by other art” don’t fly because this is not a happy exchange between equals. Elvis Presley got rich and famous not because he was so much more talented than the black artists who had developed that style of music, but because he was white and the music industry now could sell that music to a white audience.
Adele is incredibly talented, but that doesn’t change the fact that her success also has to do with her race. There is no fucking meritocracy in the music industry.
PoC, on the other hand don’t simply “take” white culture in exchange, it’s shoved down their throat and expected of them to consume and imitate in order to be acceptable*.
He’s under fucking attack 24 hours a day 7 days a week 52 and a half weeks a year. Do you know and understand the concept of stereotypes and microaggressions? The godsdamn name is a reminder of his place in society, about the negative stereotypes.
*Ever noticed how rap stars have so much more a fame for being violent and criminals than rock stars when that difference does not seem to be grounded in reality? Why do we all vivdly remember that Chris Brown beat Rhianna, but have forgotten about the dozens of white male artists with a history of abuse? What’s the obvious difference between Cosby and Ghomeshi on one side and Polanski and Allan on the other?
+++
JAL
I disagree. Just because it doesn’t appropriate black women’s culture and sexuality it doesn’t mean it’s not horribly heteronormative pandering to the male gaze. Apart from the skinny shaming, of course.
+++
And since Katy Perry has been mentioned:
Candidate for the most culturally appropriating and horribly offensive video
The thing is she shows that she’s also completely capable of doing a huge performance without being a huge racist asshole*. She could have easily gone with that theme for a big fantasy music video and nobody would have batted an eyelash except for the evangelicals who are shitting their pants, something I’d consider a feature, not a bug.
*for some reason the only videos I can find are what people shot with their mobiles fron the TV screen…
+++
Back to Taylor Swift, I would have taken the ghettoblaster hip hop scene as making fun of herself trying to appropriate a culture she obviously has no clue about, if it weren’t for the twerking scenes later, where the fun is no longer on her, but on the black women.
Also, people, remember that twerking only became a word after Miley Cyrus did it. Scores of kick ass black women didn’t count….
Well, condense that whole discussion to a single sentence
@Giliell
Huh? The term has been around in relatively common usage for at least 15 years. Beyonce got a number one hit off of a twerk song 10 years ago. Miley got a lot of (negative) attention for the way she did it, but it was a thing in popular culture in the US for a long while before she did it.
As far as the rest of the cultural appropriation in the Swift video, I mostly agree. The stills make me think more of Pat Boone style appropriation than the Stones or even Elvis style appropriation, ie taking a cultural creation rather than building on one.
Grewgills
Here you go.
While English is descriptive, it’s telling that the most prestigious dictionary only added the word after Cyrus.
JAL
I agree with the skinny shaming though coming from a black woman especially in Hollywood, it’s a bit more understandable as “fuck the thin white woman beauty ideal”.
It is heteronormative but it’s a straight black woman reclaiming her sexuality and twerking for herself speaking about her sexual encounters as a sexual being in control, not a sexual object. (Crap, I’m sure I’ve got that wording from one of the following articles but not sure which)
This She Does the City article how the dancers are treated differently, this Grantland one goes into reclaiming twerking better IMO, and B*tch Magazine’s piece (nicki-minajs-unapologetic-sexuality-anaconda-video-feminism that I apparently can’t link to because of the stupid filters that had to put in places because of stupid fuckfaces and does have a good bit of infor others don’t like the full text of Becky’s convo in the orginal song most people forget) and AutoStraddle’s,(which links to a great one on feministing about the cover art before the video release) goes into feminism, they all have pieces of subverting the male gaze in Minaj’s video and why I called it fantastic feminism.
(*crossing fingers* I double fucking checked this and preview isn’t working so I’ll hit submit and hope for the best. I haven’t a clue as to what else would trip, I’ve only got 3 link links and put in the astericks already (I remembered beforehand finally!))
Of course it goes though and I’ve fucked up two out of three links. Damnit.
Here’s She Does the City and AutoStraddle’s.
Does B*tch Magazine’s link work or trip the filter?
Awh :-( I guess it’s hard to dilute NIN without the result being worse than the original.
Of course it goes through and I fucked up two out of three links. Damnit.
Here’s She Does the City and AutoStraddle’s.
And yep, B*tch Magazine’s link trips the filter so there’s a dup comment that may be approved later containing it. Sorry, had to try, I haven’t run into a link that actually contains the words filtered before.
@Giliell #53
It is entirely unsurprising that old white men in the English countryside didn’t hear about something from American hip hop culture until someone was relentlessly mocked for doing it poorly 24/7 for a full news cycle*. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a word, it means that it was a word that hadn’t penetrated into one of the oldest and whitest bastions left in the world.
* I didn’t watch the VMAs or her performance, so I can’t comment on how well or poorly she did it or if if was more homage or theft. I do know that people were trashing her performance and have been trashing her quite a bit.
I absolutely agree that the porns eye view of the black dancer twerking, and the crawling through a tunnel of legs were problematic depictions. The different dancers that she depicts are all referring to iconographic images in dance within American pop culture. Ballet dancers in white are from Swan lake. The modern dancers are evocative of Twyla Tharp. The B-boys of rap and break dancing look oddly familiar. Gagnam style. Olympic ribbon twirling. Cheer Squad. The leopard print wearing, booty shaking Fly girls are straight out of In Living Color. All of those things are part of American music culture, and I think Taylor Swift has just as much a cultural right to reference them as Niki Minaj
I find it bizarre that the same hip isolations found in Hula, Samba, and belly dance are such a contentious issue if you call them twerking, or that hip-hop is somehow a black dance form that is being appropriated by white people. I would say that Rosie Perez, Carrie Ann Inaba, and Jennifer Lopez are the people most responsible for literally inventing hip-hop and making it part of pop culture.
There seems to be a problems with the moderation settings. If I include any links my comments go to moderation, and the preview function wont respond at all. Maybe this link free complaint will go through? /test
Tethys,
There’s a problem with the filter system and PZ has a long lab session today so commenting is up in the air. He’s posted in the Lounge about it.
JAL
I read it, I don’t buy it.
I agree with many of the points raised about double standards and slut shaming, but I’m utterly sceptical about female sexual empowerment that just coincidentially looks like male centred heteronormativity.
Oh, sure, she slaps the guy’s hand away, feminism has triumphed, let’s not talk about the imagery before and the very concept, history and context of a lapdance.
I also don’t buy the skinny shaming argument. Yes, butts have been incredibly stigmatized and hypersexualized in black women, starting with Sarah Baartman. Therefore it is good when black women get to own their bodies and their backsides. But Minaji is not calling for body acceptance and universal demolition of white standards of beauty. She’s simply exchanging one standard of beauty for another. And let me get this clear: There are no fat asses in that video. There’s no ass that gets even close in size to the one I have in that video. There are just the usual conventionally attractive women showing bodies deemed acceptable for public display for the consumption of heterosexual men.
And no, you’re not reclaiming the word “bitch” when you turn around and use it as a perjorative for women you disagree with.
Let me discuss some parts of the Autostraddle article:
That’s a false dichotomy to start with. There’s no one true reading of any cultural product. That’s not only a very bad way to set up a cultural discussion because it puts everybody who dares to raise any criticism firmly on the wrong side of the discourse, it is also a really uninformed set up because it ignores all the work on cultural analysis that has been done. It ignores that something can be both: a strong statement about black female sexuality and still being problematic in its pandering to the male gaze and perpetuating problematic ideas.
Ehm, yeah. First of all the “one of the boys” comment. That’s problematic as hell. It accepts male superiority, male sexuality, male authority on sexuality. And then I’m really wondering how they know her intent and why suddenly that is magic.
That’s another example of
A) ignoring what cultural analysis and discourse actually is (maybe the author should not have used the term discourse. It’s a term of art)
B) decrying everybody who has something critical to say as being more or less incompetent.
Tethys
Holy fucking shit. That’s so fucking ignorant and you’re rewriting fucking history. WTF? Just…omfg, go fucking google and read, starting with “hip hop”. Wiki would work, FFS.
“If you call it twerking” like there’s no fucking difference between the dance styles or anything. Hip-hop is “somehow a black dance”. Jennifer fucking Lopes “literally invented hip-hop”, JFC. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
Gregory Greenwood,
Thank you for your comment.
(I meant to post that earlier but with the link/preview mess up, things got lost and forgotten.)
JAL
No, as the Fly Girls, CAI and J-Lo popularized hip-hop DANCING as mainstream, though it originated as a form of street dance in New York City. Rosie Perez was the choreographer. She has been twerking since before Miley Cyrus was born. There was always a token white fly girl, but the black members of the Fly Girls were classically trained dancers. who learned hip-hop from Rosie. ( who learned it by dancing in clubs) Soul train You call it twerking, I call it Samba hip action. , especially the moves at 1:13. My point is that all dance genres borrow liberally from each other, and hip-hop is no exception. This woman is pretty amazing at popping and locking, though she claims to be performing traditional eqyptian belly dance. Is hip-hop appropriating another culture by borrowing shoulder and chest isolations and adapting them to hip-hop dance routines?
Tethys
Then that’s what you should have fucking said. Also, it’s not just the twerking she’s appropriating but the breakdancing, clothing, etc, and since that’s ALL hip-hop you should have been clearer.
For fucking one, there’s wasn’t any exposure to traditional egyptian belly dance and they weren’t stealing the exact routines and style from them either. It is possible to have several isolated people come up with different ideas. This is not that. This is rich white girl dressing “urban” to be more “mature” while fucking goofing off. There’s also a fucking history of this cultural appropriation. You’re being fucking stupid to ignore all the fucking factors.
People in this thread and others seem to be using cultural appropriation to mean anything from cultrual theft (ex/ Pat Boone etc) to borrowing and building (ex/ Rolling Stones and Beastie Boys) and treating them both as bad. Cultural theft ala Pat Boone I think is a mostly unalloyed bad stealing culture and money from the people that made the art with no attribution whatsoever. The Stones certainly borrowed heavily from blues and the Beastie Boys borrowed heavily from hip hop, but both built on that foundation and other sources and added to it artistically. That seems a mostly unalloyed good and generally how artistic endeavors work. There is certainly a lot of middle ground in between. I’m not sure where I’d place Elvis on that continuum.
@Tethys 59
The hip isolations in hula, other than being hip isolations, bear little resemblance to twerking. Tahitian style hula, with its rapid hip rolls and side to side shakes comes closest, but doesn’t look much like twerking. I can’t speak to samba, but the front to back shaking and the gluteal isolations don’t look much like any belly dancing I’ve seen either. While twerking has been around for some time in one form or another I don’t think it can be traced back to belly dancing and certainly not to hula.
Your larger point that all dance (and really all art or perhaps all creative endeavor) involves borrowing is certainly true. How the borrowing is done and attribution matter as does intent (as nonmagical as it may be).
Presented without comment:
https://proxy.freethought.online/heinous/2014/10/21/bellydancing-twerking-columbused/
Well, since the comment seems to have been swalowed whole as a glitch, let me try again…
JAL
I read it, I don’t buy it.
I agree with many of the points raised about double standards and slut shaming, but I’m utterly sceptical about female sexual empowerment that just coincidentially looks like male centred heteronormativity.
Oh, sure, she slaps the guy’s hand away, feminism has triumphed, let’s not talk about the imagery before and the very concept, history and context of a lapdance.
I also don’t buy the skinny shaming argument. Yes, butts have been incredibly stigmatized and hypersexualized in black women, starting with Sarah Baartman. Therefore it is good when black women get to own their bodies and their backsides. But Minaji is not calling for body acceptance and universal demolition of white standards of beauty. She’s simply exchanging one standard of beauty for another. And let me get this clear: There are no fat asses in that video. There’s no ass that gets even close in size to the one I have in that video. There are just the usual conventionally attractive women showing bodies deemed acceptable for public display for the consumption of heterosexual men.
And no, you’re not reclaiming the word “bitch” when you turn around and use it as a perjorative for women you disagree with.
Let me discuss some parts of the Autostraddle article:
That’s a false dichotomy to start with. There’s no one true reading of any cultural product. That’s not only a very bad way to set up a cultural discussion because it puts everybody who dares to raise any criticism firmly on the wrong side of the discourse, it is also a really uninformed set up because it ignores all the work on cultural analysis that has been done. It ignores that something can be both: a strong statement about black female sexuality and still being problematic in its pandering to the male gaze and perpetuating problematic ideas.
Ehm, yeah. First of all the “one of the boys” comment. That’s problematic as hell. It accepts male superiority, male sexuality, male authority on sexuality. And then I’m really wondering how they know her intent and why suddenly that is magic.
That’s another example of
A) ignoring what cultural analysis and discourse actually is (maybe the author should not have used the term discourse. It’s a term of art)
B) decrying everybody who has something critical to say as being more or less incompetent.
OK, let my try again
*shakes fist at glitch*
JAL
I read it, I don’t buy it.
I agree with many of the points raised about double standards and slut shaming, but I’m utterly sceptical about female sexual empowerment that just coincidentially looks like male centred heteronormativity.
Oh, sure, she slaps the guy’s hand away, feminism has triumphed, let’s not talk about the imagery before and the very concept, history and context of a lapdance.
I also don’t buy the skinny shaming argument. Yes, butts have been incredibly stigmatized and hypersexualized in black women, starting with Sarah Baartman. Therefore it is good when black women get to own their bodies and their backsides. But Minaji is not calling for body acceptance and universal demolition of white standards of beauty. She’s simply exchanging one standard of beauty for another. And let me get this clear: There are no fat asses in that video. There’s no ass that gets even close in size to the one I have in that video. There are just the usual conventionally attractive women showing bodies deemed acceptable for public display for the consumption of heterosexual men.
And no, you’re not reclaiming the word “bitch” when you turn around and use it as a perjorative for women you disagree with.
Let me discuss some parts of the Autostraddle article:
That’s a false dichotomy to start with. There’s no one true reading of any cultural product. That’s not only a very bad way to set up a cultural discussion because it puts everybody who dares to raise any criticism firmly on the wrong side of the discourse, it is also a really uninformed set up because it ignores all the work on cultural analysis that has been done. It ignores that something can be both: a strong statement about black female sexuality and still being problematic in its pandering to the male gaze and perpetuating problematic ideas.
Ehm, yeah. First of all the “one of the boys” comment. That’s problematic as hell. It accepts male superiority, male sexuality, male authority on sexuality. And then I’m really wondering how they know her intent and why suddenly that is magic.
That’s another example of
A) ignoring what cultural analysis and discourse actually is (maybe the author should not have used the term discourse. It’s a term of art)
B) decrying everybody who has something critical to say as being more or less incompetent.
ONce more with love and asterisks…
JAL
I read it, I don’t buy it.
I agree with many of the points raised about double standards and sl*t shaming, but I’m utterly sceptical about female sexual empowerment that just coincidentially looks like male centred heteronormativity.
Oh, sure, she slaps the guy’s hand away, feminism has triumphed, let’s not talk about the imagery before and the very concept, history and context of a lapdance.
I also don’t buy the skinny shaming argument. Yes, butts have been incredibly stigmatized and hypersexualized in black women, starting with Sarah Baartman. Therefore it is good when black women get to own their bodies and their backsides. But Minaji is not calling for body acceptance and universal demolition of white standards of beauty. She’s simply exchanging one standard of beauty for another. And let me get this clear: There are no fat asses in that video. There’s no ass that gets even close in size to the one I have in that video. There are just the usual conventionally attractive women showing bodies deemed acceptable for public display for the consumption of heterosexual men.
And no, you’re not reclaiming the word “b*tch” when you turn around and use it as a perjorative for women you disagree with.
Let me discuss some parts of the Autostraddle article:
That’s a false dichotomy to start with. There’s no one true reading of any cultural product. That’s not only a very bad way to set up a cultural discussion because it puts everybody who dares to raise any criticism firmly on the wrong side of the discourse, it is also a really uninformed set up because it ignores all the work on cultural analysis that has been done. It ignores that something can be both: a strong statement about black female sexuality and still being problematic in its pandering to the male gaze and perpetuating problematic ideas.
Ehm, yeah. First of all the “one of the boys” comment. That’s problematic as hell. It accepts male superiority, male sexuality, male authority on sexuality. And then I’m really wondering how they know her intent and why suddenly that is magic.
That’s another example of
A) ignoring what cultural analysis and discourse actually is (maybe the author should not have used the term discourse. It’s a term of art)
B) decrying everybody who has something critical to say as being more or less incompetent.
I’ve thought a lot about cultural appropriation, and had a nice trip down memory lane due to this thread. I didn’t really appreciate the angry response by JAL at 66, and don’t wish to start a fight about that part, but I do want to share a few thoughts and moments in pop history.
Hip-hop as an art form is based on blatant appropriation. Hip-hop has been a prominent feature of mainstream american pop music for Taylor Swifts entire life. Argueing that Nicki Minaj (who was born in Trinidad for crissakes) is somehow entitled to hip-hop because she is black; but if Taylor Swift so much as shows a reference to breaking or hip-hop ( in a music video specifically about ignoring the haters and shaking it off via the joys of dance) it becomes cultural appropriation, is simply a complete load of crap.. I’m not really all that up on music terms, so I will just quote a book that makes my point much better than I could. Source
further down the page in the same source, the appropriation is spelled out as clearly as can be.
I have more to say later about disco, but for this comment I just want to note that Disco also originated in the dance clubs of New York, and also uses a lot of latin percussion, samba dance moves, rhythms and time meters. Back in the seventies, before it was called hip-hop, it was called disco hop or electric boogaloo. Michael Jackson made the moonwalk famous, but he appropriated from a tap dancer named Bill Bailey who was doing it way back in 1955.
I know exactly where Americans in the 70’s would have seen Egyptian belly dance. There was also a traveling art exhibit that was pretty popular at the time. ( not to mention multiple movies in the James bond franchise, and the 60s to 70s cultural fascination with all things associated with eastern mysticism because of John Lennon and his friends) There is a lot more thoughtful commentary at the linked source about the role of appropriation in art and the post modern philosophy that all art is inherently derivative and imitative. I would also appreciate an apology. The sheer bile you dumped on anyone who disagreed even slightly with your opinion was unwarranted and very much not cool. I hope with clarification you can see that I am not entirely stupid, racist, or ignorant of history. I might get time later to say more about disco music and the history of hip-hop, but will make a separate comment so it doesn’t seem like I’m harping on you. Some of these video clips are simply awesome.
(sorry this is so late, but shit happen in meatspace and I probably won’t be able to continue the conversation quickly given what’s coming up in the next couple of days.)(
Giliell,
Because she’s talking about Hollywood and media pressure, like Jennifer Lawerenc saying she’s fat, the context is the Hollywood culture she’s living in but it’s racist and more strict for her. Here she speaks of that specifically starting at around 3:15. It goes further for the Anaconda and Flawless remix. And I can’t help but think about the previous respectablity article since Flawless/Beyonce had such a different reaction from ya’ll even though she pulls shit like saying “bow down bitches”
I agreed but if negates what I said about Anaconda, then the same would hold for Beyonce’s Flawless.
Huh, I don’t think “one of the boys” necessarily accepts those things. It sounds to me more like the simple reality of being a woman in a predominatly male field and doing what they do in the course of her career and being accepted by them. I think she’s saying “I’m doing what the boys do because it’s not a boys thing” and her helping other female artist in the game and outside it. I don’t think it’s problematic to acknowelege the reality of women breaking through those barriers. It’s not so much as guessing her intent as listening to her speak about it and believing she pulled it off.
I’m honestly not seeing where any of what you’re saying comes into that phrase but that might be a generational or educational difference. I’ll look into it.
I stand by calling it fantastic feminism though because I believe she does accomplish subverting the male gaze and ownering her own sexuality. She’s certainly not objectifying herself and the man in the video or watching isn’t the dominant power. There’s nothig really you’ve said to convince me otherwise. There’s other aspects of the song and interviews I agree on but that doesn’t mean it’s not fantastic feminism, just that it’s not perfect.
——————-
Tethys
Nicki Minaj was born in Trinidad but raised in Queens since the age of five, FFS. Hip-hop is a culture too and watching it on TV doesn’t give Swift any damn right to use it as a prop and costume. For black hip-hop artist shaking off the haters is damn different than Taylor Swift’s privledged ass. Especially given the trend and history of this fucked up behavoir. It wasn’t just a mention or homage, it was lazy, racist and pertetuates stereotypes. Maybe, maybe if that wasn’t the case, it wouldn’t be cultural appropriation. But it is, and it is. Honestly, as it stands, I don’t think she could’ve done it in a non-problematic way but that matters not since she didn’t.
*eyeroll*
“It didn’t come from nothing!” “Vikings invented rap battles”
With this reasoning, there is no cultural appropriation. And there’s a decided difference between inncorporating the dominate cutlure around you into an artform and the shit these young women are pulling. What about ratchet culture is that now far game too? This article goes into it and applies to Swift’s video as well. Just because she’s more “respectable” and the song is catchier doesn’t mean she isn’t doing the same damn thing.
And I did say earlier being inspired by different cultures is different. This is putting on a costume to have fun, just as Miley and every other white woman pop star lately.
No, I’m not sorry. I responded to you as I would to anyone who said the same thing. I didn’t call you stupid or racist. Ignorant yes, because of what you wrote in that comment. I’m glad you expanded on it and clearly isn’t what I thought, so I wouldn’t call you ignorant now. But that comment alone sounded ignorant as fuck and there’s plenty of people pulling the same kind of crap earnestly.
As far as the whole “sheer bile” bullshit, I haven’t acted differently than any other thread and it wasn’t on “anyone who even slighty disagreed”. Try re-reading the thread and not getting huffy that I’m responding to regulars.
(Sorry this took so long. Shit happened in meatspace and given what’s coming up I probably won’t be responding quickly.)
Giliell,
Because she’s talking about Hollywood and media pressure, like Jennifer Lawrence saying she’s fat, the context is the Hollywood culture she’s living in but it’s racist and more strict for her. Here she speaks of that specifically starting at around 3:15. It goes further for the Anaconda and Flawless remix. And I can’t help but think about the previous respectability article since Flawless/Beyonce had such a different reaction from ya’ll even though she pulls shit like saying “bow down b*tches”
I agree, but if that negates what I said about Anaconda, then the same holds for Beyonce’s Flawless.
Huh, I don’t think “one of the boys” necessarily accepts those things. It sounds to me more like the simple reality of being a woman in a predominatly male field and doing what they do in the course of her career and being accepted by them. I think she’s saying “I’m doing what the boys do because it’s not a boys thing” and her helping other female artist in the game and outside it. I don’t think it’s problematic to acknowelege the reality of women breaking through those barriers. It’s not so much as guessing her intent as listening to her speak about it and believing she pulled it off.
I’m honestly not seeing where any of what you’re saying comes into that phrase but that might be a generational or educational difference. I’ll look into it.
I stand by calling it fantastic feminism though because I believe she does accomplish subverting the male gaze and owning her own sexuality. She’s certainly not objectifying herself and the man in the video or watching isn’t the dominant power. There’s nothing really you’ve said to convince me otherwise. There’s other aspects of the song and interviews I agree on but that doesn’t mean it’s not fantastic feminism, just that it’s not perfect.
——————-
Tethys
Nicki Minaj was born in Trinidad but raised in Queens since the age of five, FFS. Hip-hop is a culture too and watching it on TV doesn’t give Swift any damn right to use it as a prop and costume. For black hip-hop artist shaking off the haters is damn different than Taylor Swift’s privledged ass. Especially given the trend and history of this fucked up behavoir. It wasn’t just a mention or homage, it was lazy, racist and pertetuates stereotypes. Maybe, maybe if that wasn’t the case, it wouldn’t be cultural appropriation. But it is, and it is. Honestly, as it stands, I don’t think she could’ve done it in a non-problematic way but that matters not since she didn’t.
*eyeroll*
“It didn’t come from nothing!” “Vikings invented rap battles”
With this reasoning, there is no cultural appropriation. And there’s a decided difference between incorporating the dominant culture around you into an artform and the shit these young women are pulling. What about ratchet culture is that now fair game too? This article goes into it and applies to Swift’s video as well. Just because she’s more “respectable” and the song is catchier doesn’t mean she isn’t doing the same damn thing.
And I did say earlier being inspired by different cultures is different. This is putting on a costume to have fun, just as Miley and every other white woman pop star lately.
No, I’m not sorry. I responded to you as I would to anyone who said the same thing. I didn’t call you stupid or racist. Ignorant yes, because of what you wrote in that comment. I’m glad you expanded on it and clearly isn’t what I thought, so I wouldn’t call you ignorant now. But that comment alone sounded ignorant as fuck and there’s plenty of people pulling the same kind of crap earnestly.
As far as the whole “sheer bile” bullshit, I haven’t acted differently than any other thread and it wasn’t on “anyone who even slightly disagreed”. Try re-reading the thread and not getting huffy that I’m responding to regulars.
JAL
With fatphobia being a real thing out there, having noticable and measurable bad effects on women with regards to healthcare, hireing and payment, undoubtly much worse for WoC, don’t you think that this problematic?
See, you think it acomplishes it, I don’t think it does. Funny thing is that it can be both. I don’t agree that she’s subverting the male gaze, because it is not noticably different from all the brazillion male gazey videos out there. That does not mean she’s also not owning her own sexuality. As somebody smart said, in a game of patriarchy, women aren’t the opposing team, they’re the ball.
For me, the problematic elements are too big to hail it as “fantastic feminism”. It does not mean she’s not cool, kick-ass, or a feminist. And I can criticise the video from a feminst perspective. You don’t have to agree with me, that’s OK. But I reject the “you’re with me or against me” bullshit in the articles you linked to.
BTW, I don’t understand why you constantly bring up Beyoncé with me, I haven’t mentioned her or hailed her as a feminist icon. Same thing that goes for Niki Minaji goes for Beyoncé as well: There are many very good aspects to her work, but there are also things I see critical.