But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.
Soon right wingers will show up and tell us how violence never solved anything while at the same time advocating violence against ISIS, gays and anyone perceived as the ‘enemy’.
Stop impressing me, PZ!
Srsly, cut it out.
It will only make my inevitable disappointment ultimately more painful.
j/k
well, mostly…
Exactly!
PZ, this is the perfect quote for today.
Hey land-owning, people-owning, white colonists. Just calmly express to the British Empire what you want. It’s not nice to support or participate in vandalism and violence.
I admit that I haven’t followed the news on this in detail (no TV and 100 hour work weeks). Reading through the various threads has been helpful in that regard.
I don’t own a television, but on the American ‘news’ segments that I’ve seen online the yapping heads have been talking a lot about whether Mike Brown robbed a store, whether or not he was ‘aggressive’, that he was ‘big’, whether he walked toward the cop or away from the cop…and on and on.
I don’t care about any of that. I didn’t know Mike Brown. He may have been a total asshole, or a total angel. I don’t care if he had ‘thug life’ tattooed on his forehead or ‘peace and love’. I don’t care whether he was aggressive toward the cop or was acquiescent. He was an UNARMED young man who should not have been shot. His life should have never been in danger. From what I know of what happened, it’s my opinion that had Mike Brown been caucasian, this cop would never have even CONSIDERED pulling his weapon.
Surely as a police officer you have training. You understand and pledge to protect and serve all people – even those you have to arrest or question. The fact that this cop assumed – without a second thought – that this situation IN ANY WAY justified lethal force is baffling, depressing and crushing. The system is broken badly – and as a white person I’m trying to recognize my own role in unconsciously supporting or allowing this to go on and on and on.
In Atlantic Canada where I live there isn’t a large African Canadian population – but I’m lucky in that I work in a University varsity setting and get to know lots of individuals from all over the world. Even in our small city, Ferguson is a hot topic among young students. It’s depressing hearing how these young people – IF they are brown – are constantly pulled over by police, searched and threatened. It happens a lot and most white people have no idea. They can sympathize but not empathize.
I have never been pulled over by the police. Or felt threatened. Or felt unsafe in that way. I simply can’t imagine what that’s like. Thinking about it makes me feel sick and hopeless, so I can’t imagine living it.
So to judge the riot and protests and looting? No. Not my place.
Back to shutting up and listening.
AP
That’s an apt and evocative quotation.
Do you think that looting the Toys R Us is what Dr. King had in mind?
I have seen many responses to the “What would MLK say?” that are basically “Well, he’s not around to comment on it because a white guy shot and killed him too”. Which, yeah.
Have a nice day, Chas.
For a given value of “nice”.
I’ve noticed MLK did not like apologists/tone trolls/concern trolls. I wonder why? *snark*
Chas, #6
I don’t think he specified by retailer.
Compare and contrast:
Number 1:
Number 2:
Number 1:
Number 2:
I heard another one:
White guy: What would Martin Luther King say?
Black guy: Don’t know. You guys shot him.
nor should you. it’s all meant as a distraction from the actual crime that WAS committed, which was a murder.
really Chas?
you had ALL FUCKING DAY to think about this, and this was the best you came up with?
I’ve literally lost all remaining respect for you, the little there was left.
time for you to go I think.
Crocodile tears, huh?
My boots are getting worn. Damn CITES.
Proof that the more things change the more they stay the same. That applies equally to both life in general and Chas…
*shrug*
Feel free to ban me from YOUR blogs, dipshits.
(The part of the quote that’s being ignored is that he did condemn rioting.)
Chas
Since you are apparently too ignorant to supply context on your own and arrogant enough to open your fool mouth anyway, look at who owns the businesses that were damaged. More specifically, look at who doesn’t own the businesses. Then educate yourself a bit on concepts like capital flight and redlining. Then consider just what you mean by ‘innocent bystander’. Is an agency innocent if it is actively engaged in preventing capital flow into black neighborhoods, perpetuating unemployment in same, and being backed up by the police with lethal force? Consider carefully. Get back to me if you need help with the more complex concepts, I realize that you have difficulty with the idea of context.
46 years and it’s no fucking better. Not sure even Dr King’s patience would have made it this far.
Who the fuck cares about a Toys R’ Us? Not only is it insured, it’s a fucking building! We can make more of those! We can build them all day! A PERSON was MURDERED! There will NEVER be another Michael Brown!
I’ve read Pharyngula since 2006, including most of the comment threads. In all that time and after countless thousands of comments, the bulk of Chas’ appearances seem to consist of him saying something shitful and then acting even more shitfully after the inevitable objections, both justifying the initial objections and inviting a raft of new ones, frequently leading to flaming and derails. If someone could explain to me in very small words why the fuck he even comes here when he displays fuck-all respect to the host and the commentariat and revels in being insulted for his shitty behaviour, I’d be grateful.
Shorter White People(tm) response to Ferguson: “Hitting us back would be unfair!”
The more things change … :(
Good plan.
Let’s make this thread about Chas.
…
Sven
Have a nice day ♥
Do you think that looting the Toys R Us is what Dr. King had in mind?
Because “riots” had such a peaceful and sensible meaning in the sixties?
Riots are riots. And “engaging in violent rebellions to get attention” is engaging in violent rebellions to get attention. So, um, yes, I conclude by the language of this quote that looting the Toys R Us fall completely within what Dr. King had in mind. What on earth else could he possibly have meant?
Toys ‘R Us is probably a great choice for rioters– light on irreplaceable culture, heavy on useless plastic.
For every White person who has kept their mouth shut every time a Black man has been murdered by the police:
You don’t get to have an opinion about the riots happening right now. Continue to keep your fucking mouth shut. After all, the murder of young Black men was not anything that affected you enough get you off your fence-sitting ass and speak to power, so surely rioting in those same neighborhoods shouldn’t move you to say a damn thing, either.
If you didn’t speak up against Mike Brown’s death, then nobody wants to hear whatever shit you got to say right now.
Wow, Chas really needs to make this about himself.
Again.
Another one I read on Twitter (can’t find it at the moment, but I’ll paraphrase):
MLK showed that if you’re peaceful and educated and eloquent you still get your head blown off.
Nobody give me that “no violence” shit.
I agree that violence should not be the first thing on your list, but pacifism has shown not to work again and again and again. For peaceful protests to work your opponents need to see you as humans and have scruples about shooting you.
What was the reason for these riots again?
Well, duh.
What the hell else would “But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots” mean if he hadn’t stood before them that night and condemned riots? Seriously, what page are you on?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/nov/25/first-dog-on-the-moon-ferguson-shooting-jury-decision
“Wasn’t it Martin Luther King who said “We pray for peace”? I mean before he was shot obviously. “
So basically MLK is doing a Dear Muslima?
M’kay.
esper @33
Not even close.
Sure, in the sense that the Bolsheviks subjected the Czar to a “pogrom.”
Fuck off.
Also, even IF MLK had been totally against riot and condemed them theutmost, he could still have been wrong, you know?
He was a person, not a good.
Because “don’t complain about X because why is worse” is totally the same as “I can’t condemn X without also condemning the thing that caused X”. Fucking moron.
Jebus “Y is worse” not “why is worse”. WTF me?
Also:
Quoted for Truth. If you don’t have any shits to give about human beings being murdered by cops for failing to be white, nobody is interested in hearing you express your sympathies for fucking Toys R Us.
All leaders are contractually obligated to condemn crime, as it should be. Riots aren’t a Good Thing, it’s not how a society is supposed to solve it’s differences. But nor should people get killed simply for having a different skin tone, and compared to this a few riots and destroyed property isn’t more than a nuisance.
Riots is what you get when you fail to provide justice and equality for all. If you have problems with that, make sure the people has no reasons to riot. So I’m cheering for the rioters. Tear the place apart if you have to, burn it to the fucking ground. Show them who’s the boss!
“But nor should people get killed simply for having a different skin tone….”
Then surely people (e.g. white police officers) should not be declared murderers for having a different skin tone.
Because let’s face it, officer Wilson was tried, convicted and condemned here at RATIONALISM HQ before anyone had access to the evidence.
Wilson is guilty because he is white.
he’s such a fucking victim, he has no injuries, still has his job, will not be charged with any crime, and has a nice nest egg donated to him by fucking idiots just like yourself.
none of us convicted him, you FUCKING IDIOT. All any of us wanted was for there to be a proper trial.
this?
wasn’t it. A grand jury hearing is NOT a trial.
seriously, you’re just too fucking dumb to live.
go jump off a cliff.
He wasn’t called a murderer for having a different skin tone. He was called a murderer because he fucking killed an unarmed person.
So… this occurred to me today. Where are all the Second Amendment gun fetishists? They like to tell us that they need to fondle their huge weapons so that they can raise an armed insurrection in case the US ever descends into tyranny. So, here you go, Ferguson Missouri is effectively a police state where citizens can apparently be shot by government actors at will. Why are the weapon-wankers not manning the barricades and taking pot-shots at the cops? It’s almost as if… they’re lying about why they want the guns.
No, esper @ 41, you haven’t grasped it yet.
What little we know for sure about Michael Brown is that he was rather large, 18 years old and African-American. Oh, and he lived in Ferguson. It is possible that he stole from a store BUT NOT PROVEN. It is possible that he walked down the middle of the street. It is possible that he was rude to a police officer.
Whatever he may have done or not done, summary execution is not permitted by the laws of the State of Missouri nor in the Constitution and laws of the USA.
Even if Brown was, in fact, guilty of all the misdemeanours above he was entitled to a fair trial and even if found guilty of all of the above – which are and will now remain simply rumours – none of them carries a death sentence. Thus a summary execution is quite out of all proportion and all reason.
Even if Wilson felt truly afraid – rather than simply discomfited by the fact that a n****r had said boo to him – he had the means to protect himself by rolling the window up and the means of escaping by simply driving away. He also had a pepper spray and a baton. In those circumstances it should be impossible to claim self-defence. That he was poorly trained, subliminally racist and that he panicked are really far more credible.
Except in the USA, of course, where many seem to have great difficulty processing their own history. Besides, you are making me feel old. Do you not know of the violence, the vigilantism, the pretend trials with pre-determined verdict and rigged juries of the Civil Rights era? I’m across the Atlantic and I REMEMBER them.
@call me mark: #44 had the same thought for a while.
Hey, your president can kill you without trial.
*crickets*
Hey, the Patriot Act has been expanded
*crickets*
Hey, the government is spying on you that not even Orwell
*crickets*
But let’s not be naive. We all know that the 2nd amendment doesn’t apply to blacks.
@esper #41 in fact we await in trepidation the trial that will evaluate all the available evid-… Oh wait. There will be no trial.
A teenager is shot six times in unclear circumstances and it does not warrant a trial. Seriously?
Riots, and all the violence in them, are understandable in many cases, because they are often the only thing that opressed people (socially, economically and/or politically) can do, to try to change their situation or simply to cal for some atention over their problems.
But…
Riots, violence, destruction waged by people wrongfully treated can be something that is used against them.
And i see this in the USA: an important part of the population is against the rioters, calling them names and treating them like some parasites; and that only will worsen all the situation, creating a cycle of hatred and inequality, being used by political/religious leaders to amass more power and wealth, while manipulating the population (blacks, whites, etc.) by the use of stereotypes: “all the blacks are lazy ” or “are the whites are racists”.
Not.
A.
Fucking.
Courtroom.
The evidence we have is that an unarmed teenager who may have lifted a $5 pack of Swisher Sweets, jaywalked and been rude to a police officer is dead of numerous gunshot wounds and that a grand jury has failed to indict the killer despite so much evidence that they needed TWO FUCKING MONTHS to look at all of it. Even if Darren Willson is as innocent as a lamb, that is absolute horseshit.
F.O. #46 Indeed.
Ah, somebody kindly retweeted the missing thing back to me:
“In these potentially violent times in Ferguson, I think it is important to look at the example MLK set. His quiet dignity. His restraint. How he was able to show compassion even under duress. How he got shot in the fucking face anyway.”
lakitha, #29
Precisely. It’s a gross double standard to only condemn the riots. Also, people tried using protests and demonstrations first. Didn’t do shit. They tried the legal system. Didn’t do shit. So what comes next? In the spirit of the proud American tradition: rebellion. Funny how they’re all against it when black people do it but love to glorify it when it was done a couple of hundred years ago by white elites.
@Giliell #51: Is it wrong to burst out in laughter over that one?
I’d also like to know what Ida B Wells and Malcolm X would say.
Seven of Mine
In excess of THREE MONTHS, actually. So… worse.
lakitha @29
I would like to say something suitable and eloquent, but I’m just going to repeat your comment because it needs to be read as often as possible:
Giliell
And do you notice the suits they were wearing in protests back then? Not bullet-proof after all.
It’s a gross double standard to only condemn the riots.
And only certain riots. Where were the white leaders condemning the pumpkin festival riot in New Hampshire?
Some protestors here in Atlanta are carrying signs that read, “We are all one bullet away from being a hashtag.”
*chill down spine*
“I’d also like to know what Ida B Wells and Malcolm X would say.”
Hopefully something along the lines of “Hey, if you’re a 300lb thug who has just robbed a convenience store you might not want to fuck with the police or you might get shot.”
Sound advice.
esper
Considering that the cop even admits to stopping them first, and not the kids fucking with the cop, yeah, you’re totally blaming the victim.
Don’t be this, don’t be that, if you are this – don’t do that.
You know what? Despite all of that, black kids and men still gets shot a lot more than white kids and men do.
You’re an asshole.
In defense of the Ferguson riots
Does that mean that every person who breaks into a store and takes something is consciously making a larger political statement about economic subjugation? Not really. But at the heart of their dissatisfaction they do understand it.
And honestly – when talking doesn’t work because they don’t listen, when trying to vote and influence the political process doesn’t work because they gerrymander and voter ID you out of eligibility, when taking it to the justice system doesn’t work because anybody can kill someone who looks like you for “looking scary” and get off with a paid vacation and a kickstarter nest egg, what else is left? How else can they get anyone to understand how bad it is? What else can they do???
I noticed a few people on twitter actually making comments about the Founding Fathers and how America was not built for such terrible things like riots. Because they apparently never learned about the Boston Tea Party. Or Shay’s Rebellion. Or the Whiskey Rebellion. Or Fries’ Rebellion. This country’s history is littered with riots – not political demonstrations, but actual destroying-property killing-people riots.
Know what else causes people to riot? sporting events. Or that pumpkin festival. But somehow a white guy setting fire to a car over nothing is just a guy who is “overexuberant” or “a little out of hand”, and a black guy setting fire to a car after a grossly racist miscarriage of justice is an ignorant thug who represents how stupid and destructive black people are.
Also, Ida B Wells and Malcolm X sure strike me as the non-shit-disturbing type.
^ Snark tag missing on that.
Hey, esper what if you’re a 150lb thug? Also you forgot to mention 300lb, thug and black.
No, don’t worry, Don Quijote. See, in the language of the stupid fucking racist, “black” is implicit when you use the word “thug”.
esper, #58
Wait, earlier you were condemning the idea of convicting someone without a full, fair trial.
Now you’re coming out in support for extrajudicial public execution.
Oh, I just remembered something I’ve been meaning to ask: Is there a way to report someone to be banned for being a fucking vile, racist stain on humanity? No particular person in mind. Just asking…
I said it on the other thread and I will say it again here. Everyone using the word “thug”, why don’t you just say n****, its what you want to say and it is certainly the message people get when you say thug.
esper @ 58
The Ferguson police department admitted that Willson new fuck all about any possible robbery in the area when he stopped Mike Brown. As far as Willson knew, Mike Brown was just some kid minding his own fucking business. Weighing 300 pounds, being black (we all know that’s what “thug” means), and (maybe!) robbing a convenience store are not crimes punishable by death. A white kid walking down the middle of that road, would not have been stopped; not for more than a good-natured admonition to keep to the edge of the road, anyway.
Wilson is guilty because he killed an unarmed man, who wasn’t a threat to his existence. Just one who pissed him off.
QFT. I very nearly said exactly this in my #67.
So you can’t call people who rob stores thugs any more “cos that’s RACIST”?
It’s become a reflex response for you to immediately point fingers and cry racism, sexism, ableism….(pick any fucking ‘ism) the instant you read anything that doesn’t comport to your particular view of the world.
You people are the best entertainment. Promise us you won’t change?
ChasCPeterson: You’re trolling, and you’re getting a pass because of your long history on the blog. Be more aware of your privilege.
esper @70:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/richard-sherman-is-right-thug-is-the-new-n-world.html
A young black man who allegedly robbed a store once in their fucking life is not ‘a thug’ any more than someone who might have at one point in their life used the n-word in a horrible context is not ‘a racist.’
What other aspect of Michael Brown’s life are you overlooking by reducing him to ‘a 300-lb thug’ in an adversarial role, as if his whole life was leading to this moment? He was an honor roll student who strove to be on his way to college.
Have you never stolen anything from a store? I did. I did it for the hell of it, not out of necessity, when I was around that same age. Would that make me a thug in your book?
And let’s be honest he didn’t even ‘rob the store’. He allegedly shoplifted, was confronted with it, and left anyway. ‘Robbing’ in this case doesn’t make sense unless you’re going for the most fear-inducing words you possibly can. ‘Thug’ and ‘rob’.
Make the fucking connection, esper, you’re saying things a racist shitlord would say. It’s fairly simple reasoning to infer that you might be slightly biased in this example given your foregone conclusions about the victim.
Spoken like a true bigot troll. Show us with evidence that racism wasn’t part of the young black man being dead. You can’t do it. Which means your hyperbole is dismissed as fuckwittery.
As far as anyone, including the man who killed him, knows, Mike Brown was just some kid minding his own fucking business after having PURCHASED a pack of cigars. The supposed robbery was reported by a customer who could easily have misinterpreted what happened. The owners of the store knew nothing of a robbery until the cops showed up asking for security video. Your eagerness to push this “robbed a store” narrative absent any evidence is what’s racist because we all know, if Mike Brown was a white kid, not only would he still be alive, nobody would be calling him a thug for MAYBE nicking a pack of cheap, convenience store cigars. If Mike Brown had been a white kid, it would be all “boys will be boys; we all make mistakes; no reason to ruin the poor kid’s life over something so trivial” etc.
Someone who robs a store is called a ‘thief’, not a ‘thug’. And as has been addressed in previous threads, the word ‘thug’ is now so deeply connected to the idea of blackness, that it might as well be ‘n*gg*er’ (as witnessed by people needing to specify ‘white thugs’ every now and then. So yes, using ‘thug’ to describe a not-even-proven-to-be-thieving young black man is racist. To the core.
(Hey, what happened to innocent-until-proven-guilty for Mike Brown’s supposed robbery??)
“A young black man who allegedly robbed a store once in their fucking life is not ‘a thug’ ”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_ErCzbXOxU
Watch the CCTV you fool.
Watch ‘gentle giant’ Brown ‘allegedly’ grab the store keeper by the throat and ‘allegedly’ throw him out of the way. Then observe him ‘allegedly’ further threatening physical violence on the shop-keeper before exiting the store.
Brown was a thug and a bully and the desperation to avoid admitting the obvious is INCREDIBLE.
“Spoken like a true bigot troll. Show us with evidence that racism wasn’t part of the young black man being dead. You can’t do it. Which means your hyperbole is dismissed as fuckwittery.”
What no ‘FLOOOOSH’?
:(
esper,
From my #65
I’ll give you another chance to explain how you’re not a hypocrite racist piece of shit.
Can we get back to the rule of banning racist arsewipings as soon as they inflict themselves on civilised discussion?
Well then Esper its a good thing that the punishment for theft in this country is summary execution… Wait, what? Its not, well shit.
esper
So why didn’t the owners call in the theft? Because all I see is a physical altercation, not theft. So did he commit theft or assault? Can you make up your mind?
Also, read the attachment to this and shut up for a while. Turn on your brain, if you have one.
esper @78
Again, you’re reducing him to this one incident as if that is all his life meant. I wonder why you’re hyperfocused on this one part of his life and using that to justify your use of the word thug. I think that’s the incredible aspect of this. Actually, no, given your behavior thus far, it’s totally not incredible. You’re just a standard shitlord trying to stir up shit. Fuck off.
esper,
What about the fact that Wilson didn’t know about the store robbery thing?
You’re failing on all counts, asshole.
The text being attributed to MLK in the graphic is a distortion of what he actually said. Minnesota Public Radio’s Bob Collins on his NewsCut blog yesterday addressed how social media was distorting King’s message:
In Ferguson riots, social media corrupts MLK’s message
From Collins’ post:
MLK certainly understood violence and its’ root causes, but he never condoned or excused it.
David
Just because he said something different another time doesn’t mean the words above are not his.
rq, it’s not that the words aren’t MLK’s, it’s how they’re being selectively used to distort his actual message. That’s Collins’ point.
We’ve all seen the video, fuckwit. There’s no grabbing by the throat; there’s a shove into a rack of chips that was barely enough to jostle the rack AFTER the clerk put his hands on the suspect. This is not a crime punishable by public execution without a trial.
CaitieCat @81
I’m with you on that, and I’m sure PZ will be along to take out the garbage.
David Wilford @ 88
The message is still the same as in the OP. He can’t condemn the riots without also condemning the system that backs black people into a corner where they feel like it’s the only way to be heard.
I’m sure this person also condemns looting and rioting. But read the article. And you might also understand MLK’s attitude a little better, because he also says:
It is possible to explicitly condemn an action while also understanding the reasons behind it, and understanding the pain and desperation of those engaging in it.
So no, I don’t think he is being misrepresented. I think he had a very conflicting and nuanced opinion on this that was difficult to reconcile with the reality of black life.
Esper has met the banhammer.
David Wilford, did you actually READ the quote? Try just the first sentence. Sound it out carefully. Ask your mom for help if you don’t understand all the words.
Thanks, PZ!
@ 91:
MLK’s acknowledgement of the conditions that lead to rioting rightly lays the blame for said conditions on those who support a racist and unjust society. He wanted to make that clear to those whites who were condemning blacks for rioting but who were ignoring why they were rioting. King however never felt that the victims of such violence deserved it, despite their failure to address injustice, and that’s the distortion of King’s message that Collins was speaking to. It’s one thing to understand black rage about injustice, it’s another to defend it as some sort of karmic retribution.
Looks like the trolls are still around, probably never changes.
Wilson blocked traffic, why? They weren’t posing an immediate threat, they were strolling down the center of the street. Why not just turn around the car and not block traffic?
Then shot at him during a struggle at the police car. And Michael ran off.
For being so afraid for your personal well-being, Officer Wilson, you obviously had no problem giving chase instead of waiting for the back-up you called for. Why are you so impatient?
No matter how the facts stack up, he wasn’t armed and you felt lethal force was necessary? Not one attempt to cripple or fire a warning shot comes to mind? Just can I kill him? How is this reaction acceptable by an officer? Wait I though you said you didn’t want to kill anyone? Yeah I believe you don’t intend to kill someone when you confront them, but your actions demonstrate your inability to maintain your composure and to react without a shoot to kill mentality.
If he returns to duty… Especially in Ferguson… I can’t see how this will help the community heal or benefit any community he’s in. But given the news about more National Guard headed to Ferguson, I can only hope there aren’t anymore victims…
If at any time during this whole mess (posts past and present) I acted with a lack of empathy or cognitive dissonance, I apologize.
So what would you prefer? That rioters used a more “strategic” approach, perhaps? Maybe storm wealthy neighborhoods, burn down houses there and put upper-class men’s head on top of pikes, maybe take inspiration from the french jaqueries, when rebels forced nobles to watch their children being cooked alive, then chopped to pieces and force fed to them.
One thing which never cease to infuriate me is to watch my privileged peers react to plebeian violence with smug assertions of moral superiority while being completely blind to the fact that their behavior is fueling an anger which, if not soothed, will cause the eventual downfall of their class and the suffering -and potential slaughter- of their descendants.
I wish I had this quote yesterday. I was thinking the same thing, but did not know how to express it when a student in my biology class brought up the rioting. He’s a criminal justice major and wants to be a police officer. We talked about the shooting when it happened and had differing opinions. I think he is a bit naive about the police and their relative infallibility. Whereas, even though I have family and friends who are in law enforcement (local, state and correctional) and I trust them, I also know others that I would not trust.
Then another student made a comment that “If you celebrate that your white, then your a racist”. At that point I shut down the discussion, as my nerves where raw from the grand jury decision, the rioting and job stress. What the student said also struck a nerve with me because it could have easily been something that I would have said in my teens. I grew up in a town with only one African American family and no other minorities (except one hispanic family who moved into town while I was in high school), hell if you weren’t Polish Catholic you were a minority.
The police officers that I mentioned above, and would not trust, are the ones that probably held onto those stereotypes and prejudices of our youth and I would not be surprised if they looked at minorities in a dehumanizing way still today.
I’m still not seeing the distortion. The very first sentence plainly spells out the condemnation of the rioting. MLK also had a lot more to say about rioting and how it is no way to get things done.
David Wilford @95
Kind of the reason why this graphic and text were apt. That’s exactly what the message was in the graphic. The full fucking text of the graphic lays it out. The contention that this specific graphic advocates for rioting while not admonishing rioting is simply you being unaware or failing to comprehend the words.
Besides that, it’s apt in the first place: all the clucking and tsking of people who are attempting to shame a community which was driven to this point by a mad system. All those people who ignore the reason for the upset and frustration and the lashing out, or who discount it as just opportunism, should know that they didn’t predict this outcome – they just fucking knew the outcome because they are familiar with the fucking system which caused it to happen.
Riots are a symptom, not a disease.
The problem is blue on black, not white on black.
“Thug” stopped meaning “n*gg*r” a long time ago. Just pay attention to the news, it’s used to apply to a wide range of people now of all races.
Fuck you, science avenger. It means nigger exactly when the racists intend it to mean nigger. And it never stopped, either, no matter who else gets called a thug regularly.
Also, asterisks aren’t fucking letters.
David
Who’s defending it as karmic retribution?
rq @ 102:
I was responding to the article you linked to in Salon, and how towards the end it explicitly justified a violent response in reaction to injustice.
David
Well, that article isn’t about the MLK quote – I just pointed it out as an example of a person who has a legitimate grievance with the system, and their reaction to gross injustice and oppression. Also, it’s funny, she specifically says in the post: “I don’t support looting” and then she questions the system. Also, the last line: “I offer no answers. I offer only grief and rage and hope.” I’m not seeing any karmic retribution in the article. “Justifiable outrage” does not automatically condone all expressions of that outrage, or opportunistic exploitation of others manifesting that outrage.
So sorry, not seeing your karmic retribution at all.
In a way, that’s what Dorian Johnson said in this interview, everyone has to speak up. That interview also paints officer Wilson as, if not a liar, at least a guy who spins the truth so hard it hurts. Best interview I’ve seen on what actually happened.
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/key-eyewitness-contradicts-wilson-s-testimony-363704387739
rq,
As you quoted the article and linked it to MLK, I was responding to that linkage. Otherwise, towards the end of the Salon piece the author quotes at length a poem that details blacks striking back against oppression, plus quoting James Baldwin about living by the sword and dying by it. That’s the karmic response I was speaking to in that essay.
I’ve been hesitating with these threads because I’ve been emotionally volatile. But I just had to speak up for this.
@ChasCPeterson
You cowardly, selfish, piece of shit!
To come in here with the data clearly showing that our social system is racist to the core, on the day after another authority figure gets a free pass, and only assert your point and ignore what others are saying is to be human trash worth rejecting from one’s society. If this were the tribal era I would agitate to have you marched to the gates and expelled! Or abandoned more difficult times!
Why the fuck should anyone care what you think about MLK and rioting if you are unwilling to address what others (including PZ in the OP) here are concerned with? It’s a fucking social exchange asshole! If you want to have your insensitive shitty opinion considered you must be willing to at least try to respond to what your critics are saying. You are the whole atheist right-wing in microcosm.
What most privileged people, especially and primarily my fellow white people, don’t realize is they and their fellows are displaying their quality to one another without even realizing it. Why the fuck should I think that ChasCPeterson is a human being worth having in my society based on his behavior? Clearly he’s only concerned with what he thinks. If he was actually willing to try to understand something he would be willing to respond equitably and sensitively given the real-world situation.
Do they really think I’m going to give them some sort of free pass because they are white? That makes me want to look closer at myself and vomit out any social morals that I might share with Chas. Are most of us white folks really that shortsighted? Because if the white people currently in charge successfully break this society I’m going to assume that we are the worst group of people to try to respond and rebuild with. And if any black, hispanic or other racial groups rejected me I would be screwed because it’s fucking rational.
In the interview with Dorian Johnson (link in comment #105), we hear that the “struggle” in the car was actually a “tug of war,” with Michael Brown pulling away, and the officer pulling toward the car. The officer shot from inside the car and then the two young black men ran.
As Dorian Johnson noted, the officer did say he was only shooting at Brown, so Dorian thought he was the object of gunshots also.
Dorian also notes that the officer began the encounter not with polite words or firm directions, but with animus, “Get the fuck on the sidewalk.”
One should also listen to the description of the officer backing up his vehicle in such a way that he would have hit both young men if they hadn’t moved to get out of the way. When the officer put his vehicle sideways to block the street, he slid it right up next to the two black kids, with the door almost against their bodies. When he quickly tried to open the door, it bounced off both kid’s bodies and slammed shut again. This doesn’t match officer Wilson’s testimony.
As the kids tried to step back, the officer grabbed Brown.
Trial, we need a trial to sort this stuff out.
Link.
Rachel Maddow discusses, and perhaps why, St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch discredited the witnesses, except for witness #10, during the press conference.
Note that witness #10 also changed his/her story several times, so why the prosecutor chose this one witness to quote during the press conference is a mystery. Well, not so much of a mystery since that was the witness that exonerated the officer.
I guess that justifies everything then. All violence and vandalism can be justified with a quote from MLK Jr., and to some of the commenters we bomb a pretty extreme terrorist group over in Iraq and Syria, and they’re pretty much the same thing as police officers right?….. so go ahead and riot and burn cars and vandalize businesses. (And no I’m not a right winger, I’m a very liberal democrat, and yes I do feel that ISIS is a threat that needs to be dealt with, either now or later, and obviously the president believes that too……..in response to the first commenter) But yeah go ahead and just hand-wave aside things that are going to make your stated position on the issue look bad or worse than it already is. So much rationalizing go on here it’s absurd. This just goes to show that the people who inhabit this blog (and the guy who runs it) aren’t as rational, reasonable, or logical as they think they are. People here are VERY ideological, and that can blind them to reality and the facts at times, especially with a controversy like this. Peace out.
Johnnyboy, what was your point? I didn’t see anything other than a idiotlogical complaint against the horde.
@ Johnnyboy
I include you in my 108
I don’t think people are saying that a quote from MLK justifies violence any time. The point is that one should always consider the context around violence. Some news sources are studiously ignoring the context. I’ll repeat here a link that Ichthyic posted in an earlier thread:
http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/
That, my friends, is the context.
Officer Wilson calling Michael Brown a “demon” and a “hulk” lies well within the context presented in the link above.
In additional news the National Bar Association has called for federal charges against Darren Wilson.
Johnnyboy was stinking up the Utterly unsurprising thread with his chiding, superior, logical pontification. He tone trolled and contributed almost nothing on-topic (and certainly nothing of worth).
He doesn’t feel any need to condemn the blatant travesty of justice that was the failure to indict, but has somehow decided that it is everyone else who has prejudged the case.
For more on how officer Wilson cast Brown as an outsized threat, please see this presentation:
Link.
This is valuable context.
That’s from white intellectuals writing about people of color in the 1990s.
@ Lynna 116
In a massive case of social projection that fits law enforcement almost perfectly.
Another piece of foolish, selfish, shortsighted bigotry that I see my fellow white people engage in is ignoring the fact that law enforcement shows it’s quality in how it treats the least fortunate and powerful among us, particularly racial minorities. It’s what they resort to when emotions run high, and what they prefer when they can get away with it.
As times get worse they will do the same to everyone. If I can’t appeal to their non-existent empathy perhaps I can appeal to their selfishness and self-interest.
David @107
You know what? Be more specific, in future, of what you are connecting in your condemnation.
Also, showing examples of black outrage in her article (the poem, James Baldwin) does not mean she condones it, or that MLK condones it, or that those are the right answers. She herself is just another example of a person who sees the violence and understands it, but doesn’t believe it to be the correct response. Those examples she cites, those are other examples of black outrage, justifiable outrage. Still not karmic retribution. More like a demand to be seen and respected as people. A very strong one, one that has been ignored for centuries. No one’s sitting back and saying ‘haha they deserved it’. They’re saying ‘I can understand your response, though I wish you had a better way to say it’. The trouble is, I don’t think anyone has come up with that ‘better way’ at this point in time.
What are you trying to get at here? That black people shouldn’t fight back at all? That black people shouldn’t resort to desperate measures to fight back? Sure, they should be equal members of society with no daily discrimination or fear to face in their interactions with the world. But they do, and the system constantly fails them, even after they’ve been polite, after they’ve been successful (the few who make it), even after they follow all the rules. So what else would you have them do? What will make you understand?
Brony @117, I see your point. And Pat Robertson backs you up by engaging the social projection that sees law enforcement officers as almost perfect. (see quoted material below)
Robertson also provides context. This is how many people telling black people to calm down see the issue. We are rightly suspicious of people telling others to calm down. Motive and context are important.
Link.
right-wing … ChasCPeterson … right-wing
huh
Here’s über conservative Justice Scalia speaking in 1992:
“Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we just have to give up and let violence take its course. The nation will not listen to our voice, perhaps it will heed the voice of violence.” -Martin Luther King Jr
Even MLK had a limit. And when the most prominent and powerful non-violent civil rights leader says violence might not only be necessary, but inevitable, well…that tells you something about how little those in authority in our country care about righting injustice. When you don’t give someone a peaceful outlet for change, people take the only outlet they have.
Here are some of the instructions given to the Ferguson grand jury:
There were eye witness accounts to indicate that Wilson may not have acted in self defense, but Prosecutor McCulloch rigged the system so that an indictment would be less likely. Bet he’s very pleased with himself.
Shorter johnnyboy: “Blah blah, strawman, blah, only other peoples world views are ideological, arglbarglblah, irrational blah blah, blahbitty blah. Blah.”
@ chigau 120
His attitude could have been plucked from Fox News. The terms right and left wing are contextually specific to a community (hence right wing atheists).
As a group the sum total of our positions may be closer to the left side. But like the libertarians and their spectrum of issues, I choose to define them based on what I actually experience time. If they predominantly act like a conservative/religious/fundamentalist/republican/wall street type when it actually matters the most to me political labels are meaningless.
Lynna
Of course he’s pleased with himself. He orchestrated the whole fucking thing, and the results are exactly as expected. Of course he’s fucking pleased with himself, because now, once again, white America can stand back and look at black America, and be afraid, and to ignore the reasons behind it, because VIOLENCE!!!!
Even localized violence. (Because the vast majority of protests have been peaceful, though disruptive, even when people have been arrested.)
Matrim
Thank you for that quote. Gold. (Though someone, no doubt, will yell CONTEXT!!! very soon.)
johhnyboy #111
I know! Them black people just don’t know how to act when their own government in their own country is refusing to give them equal status under the law.
I wonder why they didn’t try peaceful methods like demonstrating, protesting, and awaiting the decision of a grand jury regarding indictment.
Maybe they should try meditating next.
Saad
They could always bake cookies. Everyone loves cookies and the people who make them.
Matrim @ 122:
Here’s some much needed context for that quote, from Martin Luther King Jr: Dreaming of Equality pp 92-93:
So no, MLK did not, near the end of his life, waver from his commitment to non-violence.
No, but it sounds like he understood the need for it. And was willing to speak to those committing it, instead of shunning them as uncivilized or ignorant.
rq, I’d say that King understood the desire for violence, not the need for it.
Right Wing Libertarian Fantasy Quotes Vol. II: “The tree of patriotism, blood of tyrants, yada yada yada, watering three times a day…” – maybe T. Jefferson.
IN REALITY: “Shriek! Run! Uncivilized! UNCLEAN! They’re damaging TINGS! OMFG! Panic! Call the cops! Call the military! Call Secret President Shadow Reagan!”
David
Not really sure how you can tell so specifically.
Then again, I probably can’t, either. What I do know is that the words in the OP and the quote from Matrim show King’s understanding of violence-as-manifestation-of-outrage. And while he didn’t condone it personally, he also realized he was powerless to stop it. Your context(s) do not change that view at all, so I’m still left wondering exactly what point you’re trying to make, here.
Because no one is saying MLK wavered from his own commitment to non-violence – but that he admitted and accepted the presence of violence, yes. That he did. How could he otherwise?
CaitieCat, Harridan of Social Justice @21
I had EXACTLY the same reaction, as I skimmed over the full transcript of the original speech so I could point to this exact paragraph in another social media space.
Skimmed because I’m at work, and don’t think I could actually read the whole thing through without shrieking and weeping aloud that not a F*cking thing has changed, since I was less than two months old! EVERYTHING I saw in that speech is EXACTLY as true and relevant and timely NOW as it was then (if not in many ways more so).
Dear less-white, less-privileged than me people:
I’m sorry…I’m so, so f*cking sorry that it took me as long as it did to see this. And that I had to experience a tiny slice of the economic inequality Dr King addresses in the same speech my own, privileged white self to finally f*cking understand. (FWIW…which I realize is not very f*cking much.)
I’ll be over in this corner doing my best to STFU and listen and take my cues from all y’all who have lived this much longer and more painfully than I ever will.
rq:
Not the need for it, no. Again, he said something like this:
That is understanding it and explaining it and recognizing what it for what it really is, as a way to move to his point about why these people are doing such things. The reason they’re doing it is because of all of these other problems which aren’t being addressed, which certain people have “failed to hear.” That is not justifying it, or talking about how it’s necessary, or saying we “need” (or are morally obliged) to engage in violence in some such circumstances. He’s identifying it as a problem and trying to address the root causes of it, in the larger context of society as a whole, instead of idling condemning it while letting people assume from their comfortable positions of privilege that the fault is all in the hands of these evil black people who are upset. Who the fuck cares what they’re upset about? People like MLK. They are fucking right to be upset, to feel angry, he’s saying; but simply pointing a finger at them, without pointing a finger at many others, will not do any good in the bigger picture. You can have this sort of tunnel vision, where you only see a Toys R Us being destroyed, so that you barely even notice all of the other destruction around it, which is also part of the reason why the thing you’re so focused on is happening. This is not something anybody “needs.”
my, such passion. That’s probably admirable.
Look, my point, made perhaps too obliquely, was simple: I do not condone arson, looting, vandalism, or violence against innocents. Ever. I don’t give a fuck what the reasons are for the rage nor the rationalizations all you non-participant keyboarders erect for yourselves. Arson, looting, vandalism, and violence against innocents (including, it should go without saying, by police) are not cool with me. Ever.
To the extent that you feel differently, we have nothing to talk about.
I remember reading an interview with a rioter a while ago. I think it was an incident in England. The interview asked him why he showed up with a club. He answered ‘because when we showed up to discuss it politely, nobody listened or paid attention. Got your attention now, don’t we?’
It’s sad how incredibly valid his point is.
consciousness razor
Alright, so using the word ‘need’ was rather simplistic of me. You sort of got to the bottom of the point I was trying to make, though. Rather badly, as it happens.
I mean I made the point badly; you got to it rather well.
rq,
MLK not only never wavered in his personal commitment to non-violence, he devoted his life to working with others to form a non-violent movement to fight for civil rights. So no, King did not feel powerless in the face of injustice or feel that violence couldn’t be resisted.
lakitha tolbert @29
QF painful T.
Note to Self(*):
And, actually, all us all white people that get it, or have really started to get it, or are really honestly trying to get it?
Now is probably a really important time to spend far more time listening than speaking, if not keeping the lip zipped entirely. Please let’s be very careful to NOT talk over those who have been living this nightmare their whole lives.
(*) because I need the reminder more than the many Horde regulars who do so much heavy lifting around here. and maybe there are a few lurkers in a boat similar to mine…
David
Except when it was happening.
I applaud his efforts. If only all those other black people out there would stick to his lessons in non-violence.
What you are missing Chas is the is a difference between condoning such violence, and the feelings of oppression of not being listened to that makes some people riot.
What are you doing to address the needs of the black in Ferguson, rather than complaining about rioting there and elsewhere? Just complaining about the rioting means you agree with the status quo.
ChasC,
Define ‘innocent’.
The standard you walk by is the standard you accept. The owners of ToysRUs are not ‘innocents’. The white folks failing to condemn the abuses are not innocents. They are, at the least, by their tacit acceptance accomplices, but more often perpetrators of prejudice.
I forget the story I was reading, but in a speech given by one character, he said ‘you built your city on the backs of others. You used their suffering as it’s foundation. Of course it’s going to crumble and fail when they stand up.’
rq, may we all listen to MLK’s message of non-violence.
parasiteboy
Yes, this is true.
David Wilford
Your tedious bullshit has been addressed repeatedly before you ever arrived in the thread. Shut the fuck up.
Johnnyboy
Just shut the fuck up.
chigau
Socially conservative feel better to ya?
Chas
Fuck yourself sideways. I will never understand why PZ continues to tolerate your bullshit.
David
While also hearing his message about a broken system. Don’t forget that.
rq, absolutely not.
Frederick Douglass said,
And again Chas comes in to shove his point over things without a willingness to actually respond to the main thing that I see people in here concerned with. No sense of social exchange, just a “No! My social issue! Not yours!”.
crud…my blockquote sucked everything into its wake
below is the part where I was commenting
That is to say, you can’t wait for those in power to do what’s right. They will walk over others in exactly the same measure as they are “allowed” (as people quietly accept the situation). And taking your due isn’t pretty. But it is necessary.
I feel that as a white person who’s life as always been automatically valued and who has always been given the benefit of the doubt, I need to stfu when it comes to talking about appropriate reactions. Children are dying, not because they have committed murder or actually threatened anyone, no, simply for the crime of being a black man or boy. They are automatically feared and their lives are valued as less. And their murderers walk free every friggen time. I will NEVER know what that’s like simply because I had the great fortune to be born white. I don’t know the rage and feelings of helplessness that creates. And I NEVER will. So I have no right to talk.
But I will say this,
systematic murder =\= an outbreak of vandalism
I should never post when I’m irked…so many mistakes
*I feel that as a white person WHOSE life as always been automatically valued
*Children are dying, not because they have committed murder or actually threatened anyone, no, simply for the CRIME OF BEING BLACK.
apologies.
PZ, I appreciate you sharing this quote, and (with certain obvious trollish exceptions), I’ve found the comments on this post enlightening and thought-provoking. I found this, related article helpful too, and I will be adjusting my language when referring to the civil unrest and revolt in Ferguson accordingly as a result.
May we all remember the Black Panthers, which scared the shit out of the establishment, and made them listen to MLK. They were instrumental in causing the social change too.
I said it before, I’ll say it again: For peaceful protest to work the other side has to actually give a shit about you. Guess what, when your children can be killed and the killers don’t even have to face a trial, you’re quite justified in believing that the other side does not see you as a human being with rights and needs.
Well, at least I now know what David’s priority is.
Also, Nerd, thanks for the reminder that MLK wasn’t operating in a void, that there is context there, too.
Without justice, there can be no peace. Remember every fucking time that you tut-tut rioters while not even bothering to think twice about what those rioters are living through and what they are rioting against. Don’t for one second forget that ivory pontifications about “oughts” and principles come from a position of profound fucking privilege and don’t for one second assume that you know better about how people facing incredible injustices “should” behave. Don’t for one second think that your personal handups over tactics and the value of personal property somehow make protestors less justified.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy@147
I agree. The student who said it, and is white, seemed to be saying it in a complaining tone of voice (I didn’t make that clear in my original post). It was one of those times that I thought my head was going to pop. That’s why I stopped the discussion.
Anyone that agrees that rebellion and revolution are options for a citizenry treated badly must be willing to agree that a subgroup within that citizenry has the same options. Any member of the dominant subgroup must be willing to concede this to any other subgroup. Especially if that dominant subgroup shows no signs of being willing to fix the system and is complicit in the conditions that create the problem.
That is a violation of the social contract. Anything else but actually fixing the damn system and changing our collective behavior is unacceptable, and hypocrisy.
Seriously, there are anyone that thinks that rioting, looting shops and burning houses is something remotely good to the cause of true eguality and equal treatment of all human beings and the need of better control and better recruitment of the police force?
Seriously?
All the criminals that are looting and burning are the best allies of the one that want your country to go back to the times before of the conquest of the civil rights by the americna blacks, because they create fear and contempt in many people that read and see the news, turning that people in allies of your far-right forces and their racist and authoritary politics.
All this riots are a blessing for the racists and authoritarians in your country, while destroying much of the work of the ones that defend equality and a good relations between all comunities.
Show me where social occurs with just peaceful demonstrations put down by police. I’ll be waiting for your evidence….
fernando
Yeah, the approach has worked so fucking well that soon there will be no more black men left in the USA because they’re either in prison or get shot when they’re kids.
++++
I think that Chas gets what he really wants: He uses his privilege to hurt people with less privilege (and who are, heavens forbid, passionate about it) and then he gets to play the super-Vulcan on his sulphur yellow cloud, having tut-tued all the lesser plebs
@fernando
Do you believe that a citizenry treated badly have the option of rebellion or revolution?
fernando:
There is no One True Way to fucking justice. The current system is failing. It is not working. Ignoring that or yelling at people for daring to protest too vigorously while PEOPLE FUCKING DIE due to the system not working is fucking immoral.
You and all you other complacent, amoral fucks whining about “looting” can just fuck right off.
ouch, yep, you found me out. What I really want is to hurt people with less privilege.
*eyeroll*
Nerd @ 155:
Well, when the Civil Rights bills of 1964 and 1965 were passed, the Black Panthers weren’t even in existence yet. But Martin Luther King had become the most prominent leader in the non-violent movement that culminated in them becoming law. The main perpetrators of violence in the years leading up to the passage of said bills were in fact whites, in the overt form of police brutality and covert form of KKK killings and terror. Answering that in kind was not deemed an option by King and others, as it was felt to be counterproductive.
For all those who are condemning those who are protesting violently, I would like to quote Ian Cromwell (Crommunist), from his post “Violence isn’t the answer, unless I’m asking the question” (http://crommunist.com/2014/11/26/violence-isnt-the-answer-unless-im-asking-the-question/):
“If the state had just declared that police have the right to murder you and your family in the streets with little or no provocation, that your life is essentially worthless, and your peaceful attempts to redress the situation were not only futile, but actively branded as unjustified anger, then I’ve got to ask: why wouldn’t you riot? What exactly do you lose by rioting? What more can the state take from you? They have your dignity, they have your wealth, and they’ve made it clear they will not hesitate to take your life. What is the incentive not to riot?”
This is bullshit. This looting? Is not creating fear and contempt in people. That shit was all already there. It’s been there since the first Africans were brought here in 1619. It’s been actively cultivated. The abolition of slavery was a formality. For a lot of black people, especially in the south, life got worse after slavery; not better. The civil rights movement? Incremental steps. Racial attitudes in this country have not changed anywhere near as much as people like to think in the last 400 years. Mostly we’ve just changed the logistics of how we oppress black people.
I would LOVE for it not to have come to this. But I’m not going to sit here and tut tut at people rioting when I’ve been alive long enough to see all the official avenues not work and all the unofficial peaceful avenues not work. The powerful will not changed until they are dragged kicking and screaming. It’s worked that way since the beginning of time.
@ChasCPeterson
Do you believe that a citizenry treated badly have the option of rebellion or revolution?
@ Chas,
You managed to find three words out of 83 to condemn police violence. Well done.
You also managed to write, I don’t give a fuck what the reasons are for the rage….
Really? Are you basically tone trolling the protestors because some people are rioting? (In addition to tone trolling the commenters here.)
Sometimes violence is a necessary evil, true.
But what im trying to say is that blind violence, that affects common people is not a good idea at all.
Specially if the ones that are looking for a more just society are a minority inside that society, and their violent acts hurt their own comunity and others comunities, giving excuses to the ones that treat with contempt the victims of social inequality.
I am totally for the punishment of any police or authority that abuse of his power, and i defend and work for a world where we are all equals, but i, personally and deeply, feel outraged when i see people, using the excuse of real social problems, looting and burning a town.
Maybe im being naive, but this behaviour seems something that the far-right in your country secretly enjoys to see, because will “prove” that the “others” (now the blacks) are a “bunch of criminals”. All this chaos is not good, at the long run, for the civil rights fight.
@ fernando 172
If you believe that a citizenry treated badly have the option of rebellion or revolution everything including and after the “But” is an excuse.
The black community is objectively treated badly. As white people and as a national culture we have failed utterly time and time again to fix this,
https://proxy.freethought.online/dispatches/2014/11/25/ferguson-mo-and-americas-racist-criminal-justice-system/
…and that does not even cover phenomena like white flight and bias in employment. You are completely fucking naive. The black community has absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust us as a group either nationally, or as white people.
Evidenceless statement, not showing that social change occurs with just peaceful protests against entrenched bigotry. So, what you say after this, without a link, is bullshit.
OMFG! my reasonably liberal, reasonably well-informed co-worker just said un-ironically that she doesn’t think the Grand Jury made the wrong decision at all…a trial would’ve been just too haaaaaaard with all them conflicting testimonies an’ stuff! (and she actually understands at least part of the structural injustice/racism in play here!).
And my well-educated, but recently naturalized US Citizen co-worker just can’t unnerstaaaaaaand why a) those people are rioting and b) why ever’body don’t just meekly do exactly ever’thing any cop ever asks ’em to becuz then there’d be none of these here problems. (and you should hear it when he gets a- mansplainin’ on other topics–at least he’s still in his 30s…maybe one day he’ll start to get it). [nope, never mind that black people can do all that and STILL get shot dead by police]
*DIVA SMASH!!!*
Good thing it’s a short week here in USAlienStan…I think I’m about outta spoons, and I gotta go to Thanksgiving dinner at a friend’s house–a friend who uncritically consumes both NPR and local news broadcasts and displays a pronounced authoritarian streak, but from a pretty left-wing-ish perspective (there’s that privilege again!!!!).
Some days…I start to wonder if _I’m_ not the out-of-touch person living in a bubble echo chamber…
I certainly LOOK like a nutjob because I can’t hide the frustration and anger that builds up listening to such willfully uninformed blathering…
The Not Even Wrong…it really burns…
If you could make the Police mind that statement, we’d actually have some progress.
@ fernando 172,
Perhaps you should consider the actual history of human rights struggles across the world. Do you really think that oppressors will give up power because the powerless say “please?”
You would do well to read that piece by Ian Cromwell that frogkisser linked to above.
@ fernando
First intelligent thing you’ve said so far.
frogkisser, thanks for your #154 and #168. I’ve added your links to the Later this morning in America thread.
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls #174
You can check here a lot of examples of non-violent revolutions, that changed deeply the politics and society of many countries around the world.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution#Peaceful_revolution
THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE, chas.
About the subject of the grand jury proceedings in Ferguson, the problem is that they conducted a quasi-trial, which isn’t how the system is supposed to work as a grand jury does not have all the procedural elements of a full jury trial available to it. Here’s more about that:
Justice Scalia Explains What Was Wrong With The Ferguson Grand Jury
What the legal options are for reconsidering this case, I can’t say. But it would be good if there were.
fernando, #172
You’d have a point in a world where Michael Brown hadn’t been shot.
But since he was shot, your above statement either needs to be directed to Darren Wilson and his supporters or not said at all.
Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy @169
Very well said, especially this.
No, this rioting is a symptom, not the disease. It’s an effect, a direct and logical consequence of what’s gone before. To point to it as a (let alone the) _cause_ of fear and contempt is to erase the decades and centuries of contempt and violence, perpetrated against the far less powerful, that has led up to it.
I’m in no position to tut tut at those damaging property (THINGS, not people…still only THINGS!), nor even to smugly condemn others for expressing anger, for showing *gasp* passion in response to this injustice. (I’ve got a short fuse myself, and far less reason to be angry with the status quo and those who prop it up, and who beat down its victims…until their _own_ privileged ox is gored, or until somebody calls them a name or uses a naughty word).
@ Fernando
It.
Has.
Been.
Tried.
We’re sitting here talking about MLK and the civil rights movement etc. and now we’re 45 years on from that and things are only marginally better. At what point will enough be enough? How long do black people have to stand by and watch their husbands/fathers/sons/brothers be killed for existing before it will be acceptable to fight back? How many white murderers have to be acquitted? How many white elected officials have to fail to do anything about this? How many times does the system have to fail before you’ll be OK with circumventing the system?
you wankers that keep saying shit like “Oooh, it would be better if people just didn’t do bad stuff.”
you know how USELESS that is?
Focus on the things that CAUSED the damn problems to begin with, and you’ll have less to worry about people “doing bad stuff”.
fucking morons.
just because:
http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/
also something that has not been pointed out enough… the people of Ferguson have as one voice, including the people who had businesses destroyed, said it was NOT the citizens of Ferguson who did the looting and burning.
funny how the media is mostly ignoring that.
I’m just gonna leave these here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/22/ferguson-black-america_n_5694364.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/22/ferguson-police-rules-of-engagement_n_6204026.html
Also, the wikipedia article on the subject is fairly good. Not perfect, but fairly good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest
@Chas
You didn’t manage to develop a clear position here and haven’t added much substance to the comment section. You might want to take a break from this thread and work out your key points. Probably assisted by reading something from Dr. King. For clarity, you know.
Y.
Those are rare examples, and most non-violent revolutions are either democratic revolutions or bloodless coups – they almost always require military support. Many of the examples a related directly or indirectly to the fall of the soviet block (and notably, they often haven’t cemented stable regime change or a settled peace without further violence or conflict).
The history of civil rights movements is often bloody and violent.
A question:
A policeman uses excessive force and kills a young man.
The said policeman is accused and is going to trial.
The judge says that the policeman is innocent and is free.
A lot of people, enraged, starts to destroy and looting shops.
Unfortunately you are one of the shop owners and see your property destroyed.
What would you think?
Also, food for thought: Could it be that not all damage against precious, precious property is the responsibility of the people protesting against the jury’s decision? I mean, heaven forbid things be complicated, I know, but…
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mo-church-torched-24-hours-mike-brown-sr-baptized-article-1.2024434
Fernando, just fuck off.
@ fernando 180
Why the hell should they believe that a non-violent revolution would have any chance?
Have you seen the link I posted?
Have you seen the way the media is portraying things? When you call something a riot the only picture people have in their heads is people destroying things. There is no picture that invovles outside agitators, there is no picture of the police riot,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot
…there is no picture of the people trying to prevent the violence, there is little sense of the scale of violence versus peaceful protesting, and more.
Have you seen the way conservatives and liberals often talk about the black community related to these issues? There are so many collective psychological defense mechanisms in that shit that we simply won’t let ourselves believe we are a part of the problem. We actively deceive ourselves and ignore how the system is set up to make them look like criminals like the white versus minority crime found during police stops, and more arrest and convictions for longer sentences than for whites committing the same crimes. We pull out facts like the black on black crime rate while totally ignoring that the exact same shit applies to us!
You have the fucking burden of proof here. In specific, real-world, functional terms why should they believe that the US as a whole or white people in particular would actually pay attention to a non-violent protest? We go out or our way to pretend they are more violent than they are and ignore when they are not violent.
Here’s a good summation about the flawed grand jury in Ferguson:
How Not to Use a Grand Jury – by Jeffrey Toobin
fernando @ 190
Fuck off with your transparent little gotcha. My personal misfortune in that case would not change the fact that these people are pursuing the only avenue they feel is left to them. I would be a racist fucking asshole if my attitude about this changed just because property I own was destroyed. My business can fucking be rebuilt. Mike Brown can’t.
fernando
Dunno, where has that happened?
@ fernando
I would be pissed off at other white people, the government, and the culture as a whole for creating a situation that would give a group of people no other option than to choose rebellion. All humans have their limit and their children being shot and killed is one of them.
Any shopkeeper that does not see things this way is one of the fuckers creating what I posted in #193.
That the judge got it wrong. Like you are.
For the clueless and/or dishonest assholes who want to pretend that this is ONLY about one police officer and one murder case:
As was said upthread, all required the army to change sides. The national guard is putting down the riots. What would happen if they protected the protestors from the police riot? Think about that, if you can think at all. I doubt it.
Everybody who hasn’t already should look up the Kajieme Powell video. It’s fucking chilling. The cops got out of the car with guns drawn and he was dead within 20 seconds. And then they fucking cuffed him.
fernando 161
My response to Chas in #20 goes for you as well. He failed the challenge, as I expected, and just continued his mealymouthed maunderings. Can you do better? I have my doubts, but what the hell, I’ll be charitable, since I got good news earlier.
David Wilford 167
Have you heard of a man called Malcolm X? Are you at all familiar with his writings, politics, or the movement he led? Malcolm X, who said things like “Nonviolence is fine, as long as it works”. Also popularly attributed to him is a line about the white establishment talking to King because otherwise they’d have to deal with him. The Black Panthers were not the first, or largest, militant movement among African Americans.
To me, is a question of the strategy used in the long run to fight for the civil rights.
In my opinion the strategy that some people defend (violent protests) could give some temporary and minor advantages, but possibly will create animosity from other sectors of the population that see people like them affected by the vandalism used by some “protesters”.
Personally im a suporter of peaceful protests and civil resistance, with a greater politic participation, to end the inequalities in the society.
Naive? No. That is possible, and History already proved that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.
Black Panther/Huey Newton and the SCLC/MLK were required back in ’64-’68. Same pairing is required now to get Gov. Nixon to listen and act. Show me where Gov. Nixon has been listening the people of Ferguson AT ALL.
Yep, Naive. I lived through that period. Never, ever, forget the hammer to make them listen to MLK. Black Panthers.
Also, re: the non-violent revolutions that worked – the ones that did work, and were possibly-maybe not followed up with violence (on the part of the revolutionaries, at least), were ones working within an already crumbling system (i.e. the USSR).
The USA may be a crumbling and corrupted system (by some definitions), but it is one still strong enough to maintain the status quo through force (see the national guard!) and thus is far less likely to hear the polite voices of those seeking redress. And far more likely to crush dissent with maximum power.
The USSR was not such a system, which is why (par exemple) the Singing Revolution of the Baltic states worked so well. And even then, the result was deeply threatened by the barricades of ’91, which was a barely-failing attempt of the dominant regime to re-take power. Because the singing revolutionaries, see, didn’t have the forces behind them to stand against tanks (the best they could do was build barricades with farm tech and tractors).
Seven of Mine and anteprepo
Don’t forget, also, the black women killed by police officers (and not). Remind me to find that link at home. Because it’s not just black men (though majoritarily so), it is black people.
@ 202:
Malcolm X was a member of the Nation of Islam, a black separatist movement, and on occasion espoused violent rhetoric. But they really weren’t into actual violence as the Black Panthers later were, even though they were labeled as extremists by whites hoping to discredit them. For the most part, the Nation of Islam wasn’t involved in MLK’s non-violent struggle and they weren’t King’s foils either.
@ fernando 203
Why should they believe any of that? Did you see what I posted in 193?
All of that is working against them.
In specific, functional, real-world terms why should they believe that what you just posted will overcome all of that?
Seriously. What I posted in 193 IS ANIMOSITY. You are telling them they will get what they are already getting. It’s manufactured animosity for the purpose of propping up group level psychological defense mechanisms.
You can add to my 193 the political bullshit that undermines their participation in political participation. The artificially inflated number of criminals in the black community results in more non-voters. The messing around with voter laws makes voting an encumbrance.
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You are the opposite of persuasive.
fernando
In the long run we’re all dead
Just in case you didn’t notice:
The current inequalities are exactly those MLK did not achieve to end.
And since you’re quoting other peaceful revolutions. Why do you think the peaceful protests in the GDR were successful while those in China weren’t?
Right, because the leadership in the GDR decided not to gun down their citizens while the Chinese leadership decided to run them over with tanks.
fernando @ 203
Yes because people who care more about damaged property than about black lives are TOTALLY going to be persuaded by peaceful protests. Also, fuck your scare quotes and the horse they rode in on.
Yes, we know who Martin Luther King is, fuckwit. I have a link about MLK too: here
“Johnson” in the above refers to Lyndon B. Johnson, president at the time. Johnson took the opportunity to get the 1968 Civil Rights Act (Fair Housing Act) passed. So much for riots being counterproductive.
Actually no: I merely failed to read that comment (#20). But now I have. So what’s the “challenge”? To “consider” whether ideals about economic, social, and racial justice and equality provide sufficient justification for the condoning of arson, burglary, and vandalism? To consider whether the victims of those crimes are not in fact “innocent bystanders” (a phrase I never used but which you dishonestly put in quotation marks anyway) but rather in some sense deserved it?
OK, then: I met your challenge and considered.
Happy now?
Anyway. I have to work now, so you’ll all have to keep piling on the invective in my absence. I yield the floor to noted social historian Nerd of Redhead.
Oh yes, violence is the answer. Destroying is the answer. Killing more people is the answer. Turning communities into rubble is the answer.
Because that is working so nicely around the world. Because that is spreading peace and goodwill between diferent communities.
@ rq
Right, you are. My bad.
As influential and powerful as King was, it is HIGHLY dishonest to use the entirety of the civil rights movement as an example of the success of his personal set of tactics.
But aside from that, the people invoking King to whine about looting are again misappropriating him to defend apathy and the status quo:
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Speeches_By_Black_American_1000485365/173
Fuck all of you are bullshitters.
Fuck. You. All.
Nerd @ 205:
In reality, by the late 1970s the Black Panthers’ extremism and violence (mostly intra-party violence) ended up alienating them from the very community they claimed to be protecting, and also provided handy excuses for white politicians who didn’t want to help blacks. People listened to MLK because of MLK’s message, not because he was some sort of Good Cop to the Black Panthers’ Bad Cop.
fernando @ 212
Tell it to the Ferguson police, shithead.
“Fuck all of you bullshitters”, that is.
But you know what? Once again, the quote at the start of the fucking thread is enough to contradict the claims that “MLK was totes opposed to riots you guys”.
How fucking benighted can people get?
I dunno. Looks like most people here think you fucking suck, fernando, so evidence suggests your strategy has been pretty useless as far as spreading peace and goodwill. Have you tried fucking off?
YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG. AND TOO STUPID TO ADMIT IT. Show me where you lived through that period of time, reading the newspapers….
And it continues… http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/26/man-runs-over-16-year-old-girl-in-ferguson-cops-call-him-the-victim/
A driver deliberately ran his car into a crowd of protesters running over a 16 year old girl. The Ferguson police department refers to the driver as the victim. The violence against the people of Ferguson continues and the police department condones it. This incident is just another example of the Ferguson police valuing property over black people.
If you spend more words decrying the violation of property rights by the citizenry, than you do condemning the ongoing violation of human rights by the state, then your priorities are disgustingly misplaced.
@ fernando 212
Earlier you said,
So either you were lying then, of you are lying now.
Or I can be optimistic and say this is the part where you concentrate and remember the sensations you are feeling right now because that is the is the in-group social bias controlling your perceptions and ability to assess the logic of your arguments. That is a very valuable thing to be able to recognize.
But maybe that optimism is my own social bias, I can feel it squeaking right now…
My comment at #220, it appears this happened in Minneapolis. Doesn’t make it any less disgusting.
And that’s Chas getting what he really wants.
✞
frogkisser: Jesus. Fucking. Christ.
I am out of words. Rock bottom keeps getting fucking lower.
fernando and others,
I am getting the impression that you want everything to get better without anything actually happening, any change with might unsettle someone. Real life doesn’t work that way.
That wish of yours, I think, counts as “respectability politics” which is rightly despised as yet another means of persuading the oppressed people, whoever they may be in any given context, to be patient, be polite, be generous to your oppressor for just a little longer. How much longer? Another decade, another century, forever?
As Nerd and rq have indicated above, Martin Luther King Jr existed and worked against a background and within a context. The attempt – looking at you, David Wilford – to turn him into some latter day Jesus who floated down on a cloud and urged everyone to behave nicely is a travesty. We do not need a Magic MLK who managed only ever to say what an observer in 2014 would have wanted him to say. He managed to get pretty mad with all the “not the right moment” johnnies and all the “pray for peace” ones too – and he told them so. The whole man is considerably more impressive but only if we recognise the totality of the person and of what was going on at the time. That only works when we can see that he was able to marshal the forces of non violent protest because a far more dreadful alternative stared the US in the face. Only when the comfortably oblivious became sufficiently afraid was an educated and highly articulate man able to make a mark at the national level, to tell of the daily humiliation of his people. I do not imagine that King and LBJ made the easiest of bedfellows but they each had the wit, the political nous, to realise decisive action was needed and had to be strong enough to make an impact. Btw, I just found this article on their meeting at the White House – http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/01/18/263512728/when-king-and-johnson-joined-forces-to-fight-the-war-on-poverty – and very interesting too.
What I am trying to say is that none of this – the bus boycott, the peaceful marches, the high-powered talks just happened or should be used to tell the people of Ferguson how to behave nicely and everything will be well. The hell it will!
No sooner were the civil rights laws enacted than those who wanted it all not to have happened were finding any number of ways to avoid implementing them and the fence sitters airbrushing, say, the horrible death of Emmett Till and much more out of history. They were clinging to the fantasy that “it’s all over now” and stoking up for themselves James Baldwin’s famous Fire Next Time – read the book, if you haven’t already.
Writing this I have been very conscious that I am white, privileged and not American so I ask the nay-sayers to note that I make no attempt to tell the people of Missouri how to conduct this next stage of the struggle. That would be offensive. I am merely saying to those on the other side of that neat picket fence which protects you, “Don’t be so fucking stupid.”
You may take offence at that should you wish to.
frogkisser
I saw that article when it was correctly identified as occurring in Minneapolis (the headline is wrong), and was going to say, ‘Ferguson, too?’ And you’re right, Minneapolis or Ferguson, doesn’t make it better. I just hope the trend doesn’t catch on, as a lot of the protests include blocking off major roads, intersections and highways. And these are the non-violent and non-looting protests everyone seems to want – wēll, they’re happening, all over the country. And they still get the riot cop treatment, with tear gas and mace and arrests. And the damage to property – that has been, so far, incredibly localized in Ferguson and I believe Oakland – has been aggressively exaggerated by the media, because it makes better pictures than people sitting on the road at night with their hands in the air.
So there you go, it is mostly peaceful protests this time around, too. Funny how the authorities don’t seem to be listening, or hearing, or treating them as such. Funny, that. I’m laughing all over on the inside.
And with this statement fernando demonstrates that he is a oblivious self-centered fool without a shred of empathy, who considers his own property more important than another person’s life, and who projects his own selfishness onto others to make his arguments.
Anthony K @218
But if fernando fucked off then he couldn’t put his self-righteousness on display.
… And *boom* Maureen Brian takes it away in style.
Police kill someone.
Other police hide killer cop.
Police crack down on media coverage and use military grade equipment to crack down on peaceful protests.
Grand jury lets off killer cop for bullshit reasons like they do almost exclusively for other killer cops.
Protests result in property damage.
Salty crocodile tears are shed over damaged property exclusively.
Welcome to fucking America, folks.
@Brony, Social Justice Cenobite #222
I was thinking in wars to free some countries of a terrible opressor (the fight against nazism for exemple) or the self-defense of protesters against a police force that use weapons and other violent means against them.
I was not trying to justify looting and senseless destruction by a bunch of criminals, desguised has protesters.
fernando @212
No, clearly the answer is to wait for the system to fix itself because Peace™ is just magic like that. And after we’re done convincing racists to not be racist anymore through the sheer power of Peace™ we’re going to convince rapists not to rape, serial killers not to murder, and bears to keep away from human civilization because utopia is just within reach.
I wonder if racists would consider equality for blacks to be a sign of peace and goodwill…
@ fernando
So answer the question.
Do you believe that a citizenry treated badly have the option of rebellion or revolution?
Nerd @ 219:
Well, for starters just read the wiki you yourself linked to for starters for more about the fractioning and eventual dissolution of the Black Panthers.
As for reading the papers then, hey, I remember this ad from an issue of Rolling Stone back when I was a subscriber:
Vintage Ads
Kind of a let down from reading Soul On Ice if you ask me. (I’m pretty sure I still have my 70s mass market paperback of that somewhere.)
So no, you aren’t going to bullshit me about history.
Hmm, I see the problem. But this blog isn’t big enough for his powerful message of peace and love. fernando, have you tried doing the flower power thing with the cops in Ferguson? A handful of carnations, and you could heal the world. Think of how you’d be remembered in myth and song! Like how the music of Wyld Stallyns solved everything (okay, Robbie Robb), but for real.
And while I’m still here, just for everyone’s information who doesn’t already know, peaceful protests have been occurring in Ferguson (and around St Louis) for 109. fucking. days. Counting from the day Michael Brown died – actually, I think it’s 110 today, but whatever the fuck ever, right? Those peaceful protests were held to make the authorities listen. To show them the non-violence that protestors are willing to engage in. And what do they get for their efforts? What do they fucking get??? And I’m not just talking about the non-indictment, that’s pretty much secondary for this point – no, they get the fucking National Guard called out, and extra FBI around town, and the police forces of multiple other communities and the state in their own fucking backyards. After being. fucking. peaceful. for more than 100 days, during which they called out agitators in their own midst, and attempted to get their own message across. Who listened? Tell me, who fucking listened to them when they were peaceful? Every time, every time, the police reacted to their signs and words with excessive aggression and targeted arrests, there was bewilderment, and fear, but most of all courage and determination to continue the fight. And that takes an extraordinary kind of patience and persistence. And you know what they got for it? Fuck all but the distrust of the system and tear gas in their safe spaces once the authorities thought it would be more publicly acceptable to crush them.
So some people decide to loot and to burn, but what the fuck do you know of what they’ve been through just in the last 100+ days? Then add years and decades and centuries of abuse heaped upon them for generations, and tell me you would have the patience and the persistence to remain fucking peaceful after another one of your community is gunned down in cold blood and left in the street to bleed out while the murderer eventually walks with nary a mark on his body or his name. Tell me how patient you would be, how many days until you gave up or decided that enough was enough and lashed out at a system that has been built to crush you down. Tell me that, tell me you would have the sanctity of Jesus fucking Christ or whichever holy man you call your own, and I will call you out on your bullshit.
Let them riot. I cannot say anything that will make their pain easier to bear, or that will erase the centuries of oppression they have endured. I can only hope that, when the time comes to rebuild, there will be a chance for their voices to speak and to be heard for once.
So fuck you, bullshitters, as I paraphrase anteprepro. Just fuck you.
For you dimwits defending the status quo, if I was governor or Missouri, this is what would have happened after the murder of an unarmed black by a white policeman.
1) I would have asked the US Attorney General for three names of former or present US prosecutors, and selected on of the name by lot to lead the grand jury, and likely later trial.
2) The county prosecutor would remand themselves or be impeached from any grand jury proceedings and trials.
3) The people of Ferguson would be listened to, and a short lived ad hoc committee made up of community workers, social workers, and a couple of elected officials would hear their testimony, and that of public officials in the community, and report back with recommendations in thirty days with both short term and long term solutions. Those solutions would go to the state legislature where executive orders wouldn’t cover the changes.
I suspect there wouldn’t be any rioting with that result.
Instead the obvious racism of the shooting and any changes to the grievances are ignored, or postponed until everybody has forgotten the problems.
fernando @ 232
What the actual fuck do you think is going on in Ferguson, you oblivious shit?
flowernando, I’ve sourced some florists in Missouri for your carnations. How are you getting down there? Let us know if you need assistance with travel arrangements.
* Note: The authorities in Ferguson multiple times expressed the opinion that there would be riots no matter which way the decision went – either ones of disappointment or those of celebration, which leaves me in no doubt that calling in the National Guard was an inevitable move in every case.
@Amphiox #228
Empathy? I don’t have empathy and only care for some burned shops?
Obviously you – and others – failed to understand what i tried to say: affecting innocents is something that should be avoided at all costs, because if you – and others- don’t care to the damage that it is inflicted upon their things and lives, you – and others- are acting like fools, because you are giving excuses to your real enemies (and also my enemies) to treat a opressed community in a, yet more, vicious way, just because some of them are being assholes.
He meant white protesters.
flowernando, why are you still here? I’ve showed you how to heal the world with peace and love and flowers. What the hell are you waiting for?
fernando at 242, there are two options at this point:
Either:
You are deluding yourself and are STILL giving undue weight to the value of property over human lives.
-or-
You are quibbling about strategy using exactly FUCK ALL for evidence supporting your case for an Objectively Superior Set of Tactics.
Which is it?
flowernando, is travel a problem? I’m sure we could crowdsource some funds. Your message of hope and forgiveness to the people of Ferguson must not be stifled!
@ 226:
Excuse me, but that’s just historical nonsense. Back when MLK organized the Montgomery bus boycott there wasn’t any serious violence being threatened by blacks. Rather, it was whites who were resorting to terrible acts of violence and brutality to intimidate King and his followers. You may read more here about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Bus_Boycott
rq:
Exactly. Read the above, all dishonest fucks who want to continue to come in here and handwring. Fucking understand this situation and stop fucking preaching.
fernando @ 242
When have white people ever needed an excuse to oppress black people? It doesn’t fucking matter. If they’re peaceful, they’ll be criticized for being angry. The actual peaceful protests were characterized as riots in a lot of mainstream media. It will always be something. No matter what they do there will always be an excuse. The game is fucking rigged.
@ fernando
You need to answer the question.
After that you can answer, what is the difference between a criminal disguised as a protestor, and someone engaging in legitimate rebellion or revolution?
Because you look like you are completely ignorant of all the stuff I pointed out in 193. You have no perceptual filter that lets you get passed the media and social bias that pretends that the black community are all rioting, let alone a filter that lets you determine when the black community is warranted in revolution or rebellion.
But you won’t answer. You can’t let yourself go down that road because of all that it will entail. All the bullshit that you have locked into your perception that you would have to face. I can see your fear.
There you have it. Your own words. Why you’re a horrible person. You think that people have to let themselves be murdered by an unjust and corrupt system for the sake of not affecting property. You also obviously don’t see those protesting as people or innocents, because then you would include them in the category of people who must not be affected.
Whatever “affected” is supposed to mean.
You’re affecting me right now, so take a leaf out of your own book and fuck off.
That’s what your posts say, with prima facie evidence.
Prove with a preponderance of evidence, that those stores don’t support the status quo, and the institutional racism behind it. Waiting….
Reports of injuries????
Spoken like a true liberturd, where property and the fiction of equal opportunity, that allows institutional racism to continue, is your primary concern. You don’t give a shit about people being shat upon, when they have done nothing to deserve it. Only due to being born a different skin color than yourself.
We’ve heard your shit before, and dismissed it as fuckwittery since you cant’t/won’t show WITH EVIDENCE that your ideas work in reality.
#247
Did you know that commenters have names?
@anteprepro #245
You are wrong, if you think that i put a life at the same level of some building, or computer, or something else. Obviously a life is something unique and much more valuable that anythig else.
And about tactics: you are being naive if you think that violence is the solution for this case (and others of the same type); violence will only attract more violence, and put more people at the side of racists and other unsavory people that will find a excuse to make yet more confusion, creating yet more fear among your countrymen, using has excuse the riots of Ferguson.
flowernando, when are you leaving for Ferguson to tell both sides to stop the violence? You ARE going to do that, right?
Flowernando, I’m curious, but just where do you live? I’m on the phone with the airline right now trying to sort out arrangements, but I need some information. Will you be travelling alone? Any special dietary requests?
fernando
SHUT THE FUCK UP RIGHT NOW.
So much fear in this one. They on about violence and destruction and have no words that reflect any knowledge of the violence and destruction that the black community faces. It’s quite clear where their emotional priorities are. They can’t look, or it will all be ruined.
Yet you support the killing of an unarmed black man by a white cop who isn’t brought to trial for his homicide. What a mother fucking hypocrite.
Then show with evidence where you are condeming the State of Missouri, Saint Louis County, and the City of Ferguson for their police riot against citizens exercising their first amendment rights of protest. Or, shut the fuck up as a hypocrite.
More unevidenced and bullshitting hyperbole not supported by history of social change in the US. I presented above what would have stopped any need to riot. What did Governor Nixon do? Ignored the people being oppressed. You must agree with their oppression. If you don’t, shut the fuck up.
David Wilford, you’re a fucking idiot. The bus boycotts may not have been violent but they worked because protesters denied white people the profits of their bus fares specifically because of segregation on buses. And their non-violence didn’t spare them the violence of racist white people retaliating against them. So, again, what incentive do black people have to remain non-violent?
@Brony, Social Justice Cenobite #250
You must be kiding.
First: The diference between a protester and a criminal disguised has a protester, is the same between two men with white coats, being one a biologist, and the other a creationist; they could appear the same, but are two persons with absolutely diferent objectives.
Second: I never said (or believed) that all the black community is rioting, i always talked about criminals. but never mistaked them has “all the black community”.
fernando
Down there, on the gruond, how will you tell the difference?
I don’t believe a word you say. It is all about the black community being a criminal community. I know the dog whistles, I’ve been at this for many more years than you. You are one stupid fool afraid to examine their prejudices, and bring them out for removal. Begone idjit.
Seven of Mine @ 260:
The point was that MLK’s bus boycott in Montgomery wasn’t helped by the threat of violence from blacks, and the non-violent boycott prevailed. It wasn’t the end of the struggle, but it showed what was possible through non-violent action.
fernando @ 254
The people of Ferguson have been trying this non-violence thing for over 100 days at this point. It. Didn’t. Work. They still got teargassed in their own fucking back yards. They still had automatic weapons pointed at them. They still got arrested. Kajieme Powell didn’t lay a finger on anyone and he ended up dead.
Flowernando, you keep refusing to answer my question:
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FERGUSON TO TELL THE COPS ABOUT PEACE?
David Wilford @ 264
And yet 45 years later, it’s still perfectly acceptable to murder a black person. So, at what point are black people allowed to stop being polite about it?
Doesn’t work that way, without pressure from above, who is scared of other alternatives. You should know that.
rq,
Thank you.
Seven of Mine @ 267:
Hell, that boat sailed a long time ago. What’s happened in Ferguson as well as other acts of injustice have gone on for far too long. But don’t count out non-violent protest as the best way to address it.
@242 fernando:
Yup, it’s obviously the job of the oppressed to be careful and not “make” their oppressors hate them…..oh wait, that’s pure bullshit.
Fuck your respectability politics. You can be a famous black person with a clean rap and the best reputation ever, and they STILL pull you over more than an average white person. That is the fucking reality of our white-supremacist society: respectability does jack shit for most black people.
It’s the same here: they’ve been accused of riots and looting for the entire time they were peacefully protesting.
Compromising with the racist fuckwads running their city, running their state, running their so-called courts of justice? That’s been tried. The governing scum didn’t even fucking indict the murderer for a trial. The city had an empty police report on the killing, they didn’t even take fucking pictures, they rushed WIlson out of state like a fucking VIP.
The state, in fact, helped the murderer avoid a fucking trial by appointing a racist shitwad prosecutor for the grand jury, and imposed martial law to try and beat down the protestors, openly threatening them with weapons. Other racists openly gave the murderer money, the fucking media paid huge for a big interview and helped demonize Brown and the protesters further.
When the law openly allows your murder, tear gasses you and points live weapons at you while calling you animals, calls you a riot mob or even a fucking lynch mob when you merely peacefully assemble, and cheats their way out of even basic justice of a damn trial while literally paying the murderer? FUCK THAT LAW.
Black people did not FUCKING ASK FOR THIS TREATMENT prior to the riots, nor did they invite it, nor would racists have changed their fucking minds if they hadn’t rioted. A change in behavior should be required of the racists and the racists shitstains running the government, not the other fucking way around.
We’re in a country where a white cop-killer, a goddamn self-declared terrorist survivalist who has said he is out to murder government officials and who is armed and dangerous, gets taken in alive after a 2 month manhunt, while a 12-year-old black kid is immediately shot dead by cops for having a fucking BB gun while black (in a few days, we’ll have ANOTHER black unarmed man or woman shot dead by cops or other non-prosecuted white people to replace this latest horror). FUCK THIS COUNTRY.
Anyway, here’s an idea: Stop fucking siding with the racist monsters and their preferred status quo. You only think this country’s status quo is tolerable because you’re not the one on the chopping block, you’re not the one sacrificed to its legal system through imprisonment or street stops or through fucking murder in the fucking streets. Yeah. you’re not being empathic.
David
They addressed it for over 100 days with non-violent protest. What did they gain?
Nothing, is what. And yet the non-violent protests still continue. And what do they gain?
Nothing, is what.
So shut up and let them do their thing, else I’m going to help Anthony K send both you and fernando down to Ferguson to talk peace to the cops with carnations.
fernando, #190
I would think, “Racist fucking police and racist fucking justice system. Oppressing my fellow human beings to the point that they act out in rage and destroy my property.”
Anthony K — you made my day @236, 240, 246
RE: peaceful protest
A lot of people protested peacefully for the Occupy movement (including me) … but the other side doesn’t play fair.
The NYPD arrested hundreds of protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge to scare people into silence. At every march I went on, no matter how small, the NYPD came out in force armed like the military — like they had declared war (I have never been more scared in my life). They also lied to groups of protesters (saying marching somewhere was legal when it wasn’t) and then arrested them for following their instructions. In some Occupys, cops went ‘undercover’ and instigated violence (to justify the cops’ mistreatment). And everywhere it seemed they were using force, pepper spray, and penning on the least threatening of protesters (e.g., the 20 something teacher who looked 125 pounds soaking wet). Cops would arrest people and then the court would say you are free if you STOP PROTESTING — if I see you again, you get two charges thrown at you. The cops would do raids of parks at night in an effort to avoid public scrutiny (I was at one –so terrifying).
We have a right to assembly … a right to say when the government fails us — “technically” we have that right. But in reality, we don’t. Law enforcement and others in power just want us to go home, shut up, and accept the status quo. And the media is complicit (largely). They ignore protests or frame the protesters in a way that’s advantageous to people in power.
The Occupy movement is important (imho), but institutionalized racism and murder are so much MORE important. We have to be realistic. Linking arms and singing kumbaya will only suffice if the cops are stupid enough to slaughter the lot (and among them are straight white people). I’m not advocating violence or even vandalism. I don’t even know what I’m suggesting. But when we talk about protest, we need to understand what actually happens. We need to be realistic. TPTB have EVERY advantage. Protesters … none. Maybe I do have a suggestion. “People who matter” need to lend those fighting for their rights or their lives their social and economic capital. Donate to the fund for Ferguson protesters’ bail money and lawyer fees. If people care what you have to say, talk and keep talking. Never shut up.
Someone linked this at Jezebel
Ferguson Defense Fund
David Wilford @ 270
Is it your ability to read for comprehension that cuts out every time we say that people in Ferguson have BEEN protesting non-violently for over three months to no avail or do you just go blind altogether? What is it exactly that is making you continue to pretend that non-violent protest is an option that has not yet been explored?
Chas 211
Don’t worry, once you responded, you failed exactly as hard as I predicted you would, and indeed in the exact manner.
fernando
And so did you.
And since you prating, privileged, pissants are too stuck on your half-assed high horse to perceive what’s under your pusillanimous propertarian probosci, I suppose I’ll have to spell it out, just in case you jackasses are actually capable of comprehension.
What you recalcitrantly refuse to register is that businesses like Toys R Us are active agents of economic oppression in places like Ferguson*. Because these businesses are not owned by residents of Ferguson, and for the most part do not hire people from Ferguson. Every dollar that the residents of Ferguson spend in these places leaves Ferguson poorer, because that money doesn’t circulate in Ferguson anymore. Not only that, but these businesses occupy the economic niches that black-owned businesses would occupy, if black people could get business loans (but, in the main, they can’t, due to a practice known as redlining, where banks and insurance companies draw a red line on the map around black neighborhoods, and no one with an address there can get a loan. It was made illegal in the late 80s, but enforcement is lax at best, and it still happens all the time.) But even if they could, they’d have the devil’s own time starting up in the face of corporate giants who can and will use all manner of dirty tactics to drive such competitors under. That’s not even mentioning the way that a lack of home loans leads to rapacious landlords owning most of the living space, which is even more financial capital vacuumed out of black neighborhoods and never replaced. So, frankly, fuck the lot of them; the owners of Toys R Us and the other businesses for the most part deserve** all this damage and the loss of far more of their ill-gotten gains besides.
* note that everything I’m saying here applies to black neighborhoods and communities everywhere in the U.S., not just Ferguson, Missouri.
** I don’t really like talking in terms of deserts, as it gets into all kinds of sticky issues, but even from a strictly economic standpoint the only problem here is that some of the damaged structures could probably have been useful for better purposes once the looting was done with.
Nerd @ 268:
Hey, as they used to say back in the day, it’s mighty white of you to say that since you’re obviously not the one applying said pressure. Maybe I should echo Anthony K’s inane blather by asking to go to Ferguson as part of the Slacktivist Revolutionary Front. Of course I’m not being serious, and you should know that.
innocent?
ROFLMAO
what’s that?
WE ARE ALL COMPLICIT in why Ferguson, and thousands of other cities in the US, are what they are.
fuck you, you naive little toad.
Seven of Mine, #201
I had only read about that; just looked it up now and watched it. My heart is seriously racing right now.
It’s one thing to read words, another to see the action.
fernando et al: You all need to watch this video before making another post.
Now imagine that happening in your neighborhood to your family or friends. Imagine seeing it. And then imagine hearing the cop gets off without any issues. With that in mind, fuck your criticism of the rioting.
Seven of Mine @ 276:
I’m aware of what’s been happening in Ferguson, and I continue to support non-violent protest there and elsewhere.
NOT what was asked. they didn’t ask if you support peaceful protest, that much is obvious… they asked: WHAT DID YOU SEE AS A RESULT?
yeah…
you know what they call people who repeat the same actions endlessly, expecting the same result, but not getting it?
insane.
fernando, #212
You’re being an utter ass at this point, but I’ll ask this question nicely since you’re concerned with damage to community:
Who has done more damage to the community and to humans in this whole episode?
The police or the residents of the city?
Seriously answer that question, please.
fernando @254
You’re one to talk about naivety; do you honestly believe that said unsavory few need to find that perfect excuse when the majority eagerly laps up any just-so story for the murder of a black person, from the man who contorted himself in handcuffs to shoot himself to the kid who needed to be hunted down because his hoodie made him suspicious? Do you seriously think that these people who accept every rationalization for violence against blacks, echo the dogwhistles of “don’t see color” and “black on black crime”, and engage in pious fingerwagging against any form of protest are neutral fence-sitters who let their Peace-o-meters decide their worldview and just happen to find themselves on the side of racists?
Ichthyic @ 282:
Not that it isn’t obvious, but MLK certainly had more patience than most when it came to results. He wasn’t insane.
David Wilford @ 281
So you support the method that has proven thus far to be ineffective. Give us a number, asshat. How many black people have to die before they’re allowed to get violent in return? How many years, decades, centuries? It’s already been 4 centuries in this country. How many more? What is the exact number of black lives that have to be paid before black people are allowed to stop preferencing white people’s property over their own lives?
Like I give a shit where a concern/tone troll is concerned. But, I do have to be the primary care giver to the Redhead. So, every day, and anywhere from one to three times at night, I am engaged in non-selfish activities. I have lived through history, and can look back with perspective. Non-violence only leads to perhaps local change, and not necessarily permanent change.
Look at Occupy Wall Street. Dead as the proverbial doornail. What to you have to make people listen. If those in power can shut you down, they will.
So, in short, David, you’re saying the people protesting against being murdered with impunity for their skin colour can have your respect, but only if they continue using the nonviolent tactics you approve of, which are the same ones which have not, in fact, produced any progress at all in the ‘not being murdered with impunity’ problem in ~50 years?
I’d say your respect has a very high fucking price, David, and the protesters would be well within the bounds of logic to dismiss your bullshit approval in favour of, y’know, almost any fucking thing else, given the apparent complete ineffectiveness of the David-brand Moral Okeydokey.
“You can protest your vulnerability to state-sanctioned murder, but there’s no need to be rude about it.”
Epic fucking tone troll.
Seven of Mine @ 286:
I don’t know how many, and it’s far too many already. But advocating violence as an alternative now will only add even more to the total I fear. I really hope that we don’t go down that road.
David Wilford @ 289
So what you’re saying is that black people have to just be willing to be murdered on a whim in-fucking-definitely until white people just get tired of it. And you’ll “fear” more will die and you’ll “hope” they don’t and while you’re doing those incredibly useful things, actual people will actually be dying. Hopefully some day in the future you will look back on these 3 sentences and understand how indescribably vile they are.
Nerd @ 287:
We all have responsibilities at home and elsewhere, so you’re not uniquely challenged with respect to acting for justice. But I profoundly disagree with you about the usefulness of non-violent means. Because violence does work, often permanently so, but it’s a double-edged sword that can work for the unjust as well as the just. Non-violence allows a space for reason and persuasion to work, and that’s something I think we both can agree on.
David Wilford @ 247,
I’m getting worried about you.
I mention and others have referred to the horrible prospect seen by people with the sense to recognise the coming storm and you immediately leap to the conclusion that I must be talking about those nasty Black people threatening to destroy the country, also that I’ve no idea what I’m talking about.
So what does that make you?
On the contrary, like Nerd I was able to observe this as it happened, albeit from a distance. I was referring to the undeclared war which had taken hundreds of lives – and, fernando, destroyed a fair amount of property – where a proportion of the white population had taken it upon themselves to put those nigg*rs in their place and that both local and national government were being mind-bogglingly ineffectual about the whole matter.
Have you seen the so-called “literacy tests” which allowed a semi-literate white man to tell people with PhDs, MD and DDs that they were not qualified to vote? Do you know about the destruction of “Black Wall Street” in Tulsa OK in June 1921 which razed the prosperous town and left over 3000 – almost all African Americans – dead?
I remind you that Emmett Till – just one among very, very many – died in 1955 and refer you to the wikipedia page on him.
Seven of Mine @ 290:
I don’t think so myself. But you might reconsider what you’re saying if a lot of people do die as a result of an increase in social unrest and violence.
David, #289
What the holy fuck is your issue?!
That is what the police has been doing. That is what has been happening for centuries.
What do you not get about this? Are you saying black people’s teenage sons should be like pawns that they use strategically to be killed so they can then peacefully hold signs to satisfy your SELECTIVE, one-sided repulsion to violence?
and here you are naively thinking that MLK is the ONLY REASON the civil rights act was passed.
you really are fucking naive.
really.
you need to go study some history, chum.
On a personal note. After hearing about the “grand” jury decision, I read the last “I get e-mail” thread of PZ . That was one of those critical dangerous moments in my life when I considered getting a drink. I managed not to switch from “dry alcoholic” to “wet alcoholic” . I am outrageously proud of myself for that.
@ fernando
That’s bullshit. Nobody here is defending violence. Those people who do destroy property (and maybe casue bodily harm?) are hurting the cause. they don’t provide “advantages”. Not even temporary ones. Every one of those should be identified and trialed in a court of law. And I mean a court of law that would also prosecute law enforcement agents that kill civillians withiout reason. Yes, Michael Browns killing was not and apparently will never be investigated by a court of law. Think about that. And ask yourself: How can that be justice ? Someone died here and the matter was not investigated in public. WTF?
Who said that? Besides you yourself?
The answer is an inclusive society with a working legal system that can afford a properly working law enforcement agency.
You do get that. Do you?
Violent resistance is an option when there is no other option. After briefly regarding the case of a Jew in Nazi Germany, let’s move on to a Humaist in contermporary North Korea, a homosexual in the ISIS caliphate…complete the list on your own. The rioters in Ferguson do not fall into that category. They are not entiteled to violent resistace, and if I may add, looting and arson is not violent resistance, it is just a crime. 150 years ago, yes. there were grounds to use violence to break the system because there were no other legitamate means available to end slavery. You most likely get killed for resisting in all the above cases, but you get killed anyways for no other reason than who you are, so why not fight?. Today the situation is different. Some peope take advantage of the situation, some are infused with the wrong ideas, some just tag along, while it is fun. Some might actually share the same reasonable concern most people here do, but they don’t give a fuck when it comes to their own actions. And that’s the difference. People around here KNOW that petty criminal behaviour is not helpful for the cause.
The problem you are facing is that you are focusing on exactly that and not the underlying issue. If there were no unjustified police killings there would be no riots.
Do you get that?
Nobody here is a fan of riots and nobody here would make excuses for them. All we are saying is that those riots wouldn’t happen if people and their rights would not be outrightly neglected by the system that is supposed to protect them. Which in turn offers rioting hijackers the oportunity to act out.
Maureen Brian @ 292:
Don’t worry, I do know my history pretty well. May I recommend Eric Foner’s history on Reconstruction? It’s one of my sister’s favorite books that’s she’s used as part of teaching high school history:
Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877
no, it’s actually obvious you do not.
REALLY obvious.
are you suffering from Dunning Kruger?
suggest you consider it.
Ichthyic @ 295:
Oh, sure, MLK didn’t do it alone for goodness’ sake and there were a lot of actors leading up to the landmark civil right acts that were pass in 1964 and 1965. But it didn’t take the looming threat of black violence for his campaign of non-violence to succeed, which was my point.
Ichthyic @ 298:
You’re not fooling anyone with simply repeating yourself.
David Wilford @ 293
Yep, I know you don’t. You see no problem whatsoever with telling black people to simply endure being murdered for existing until white people get bored of it.
MLK was ‘entitled’ to an opinion because he was part of the affected population and on the ‘front lines.’
It’s easy to sit in the comfort of your privilege and condemn the actions of the people whose lives are ruined or threatened — the people who are risking physical violence, arrest, and associated social and economic consequences to try to make the country better.
If you want protesters to be peaceful, help them. Do what you can to protect them from unlawful violence by law enforcement by shining a light on the cops, the governor, the national guard. Don’t sit around criticizing.
Saad @ 294:
I’m hoping we don’t go down the same road that lead to the U.S. Civil War. But if justice is denied again and again and again, that’s a distinct possibility. I’d like to give peace as much of a chance as possible though.
Seven of Mine @ 301:
Yep, and you’re seemingly o.k. with them being killed if that’s what it takes. I’m not, as long as peaceful means remain an option.
David Wilford:
Fuck off.
David, #303
You’re not fooling me at all.
You direct this sentiment at the VICTIMS of the oppression. Decades of police violence and centuries of slavery and general violence against black people, and you say shit like that about people burning a store.
You’re an asshole and a racist piece of shit.
If they are being killed, what is their option? You don’t have an option. Only be being peaceful and killed. And you wonder why your fuckwittery is called out????
David Wilford @ 304
I’m OK with them choosing for themselves how they react to their own fucking oppression, yes. What I am not OK with is telling them to be OK with being murdered for existing.
Saad @ 306:
I’m in agreement with MLK about the use of violence and want to make clear that he didn’t ever condone it even when confronted with violence himself. Even about people burning a store. If you have an issue with that stance, may I kindly suggest you read more about what King said on the subject.
Nerd @ 307:
I’ve been following peaceful protests happening here in the Twin Cities and those participating in them certainly think it’s an option.
Seven of Mine @ 308:
Good, because I’m not either. How people react is their own choice. I support non-violent protest, and I’m not the only one who does.
I’m not too concerned with what MLK said on the subject.
I don’t condone the vandalism and I blame the oppressors for it even occurring. Why weren’t stores burning before Brown’s shooting? The power (and responsibility) to stop the riots is in the hands of the authorities and the white general public, not the people who have been tacitly informed that white police officers will be out there to kill them in the coming weeks, months, years, decades, and so on. Just you wait and see.
David Wilford,
Thank you. I will look out that book.
As for your 304, have you completely failed to notice that people are being killed now? Each person must, in a failed democracy or any similar situation, be allowed to make zir own decision about how much risk to take and, even, whether it might be more use to be killed making a political point than merely – merely? – for walking down the street while black.
Please accept that you cannot make it for them: it is condescending for you even to try.
The only totally peaceful revolution in my 70-odd years has been the one in Portugal in 1974 where the army were as pissed off with fascist dictatorship as everyone else and, as others have noted, promptly changed sides – hence the references to carnations above.
This is the age old gradual vs. radical change debate. The fact that we’re still having it says a lot about how ineffective gradual polite activism is.
Booker T Washington said that after slavery black people should build on the skills they already had, take practical classes in college (if they had the chance to go), and look at white people as neighbors and friends. Don’t demand political power right away. Build yourself up economically. Don’t scare the white people.
WEB Dubois held the opposite position. If black people were people and equal to whites, they should take full advantage — have equal power and opportunity.
MLK was more of the Booker T line of thought. Malcolm X and others of the WEB Dubois line.
Politeness … gradual change … not scaring white people … taking whatever scraps your thrown has done LITTLE TO NOTHING. I think we need to defer to Frederick Douglass. You need to force TPTB to share power.
David Wilford @ 311
Fucking moron.
You @ 304:
Answering in the affirmative to me @ 301:
Have I mentioned you’re a fucking moron? A vile one? Because you are.
Jeezum Crowe, MLK got fucking shot for his non-violent methods.
The protest wasn’t violent until the police started shooting tear gas. The police started this fight.
Keep in mind some of the fucking buildings that got burned don’t make any sense for black rioters to burn down. At least one church got burned out. There are fucking Ferguson cops in the bloody KKK. There’s KKK in the fucking protests. If you don’t think they are helping incite this shit then you’re a fucking idiot.
When black people destroy property it’s called rioting.
When white people destroy lives it’s called banking.
It’s not a matter of “advocating violence“: it’s recognizing it’s inevitability: injustice fuels the downtrodden’s desire for revenge, and fuels even more the patricians’ fear that the plebs will revolt and slaughter them: this fear in turns causes more violence against the lower classes because many among the privileged are clueless idiots incapable of imagining any other other way to protect themselves apart from using law enforcement as a blunt status-quo enforcing tool.
***
Polite advocacy for gradual change can be effective, in certain circumstances: it stops being so when a significant fraction of the power-holders start fighting gradual change as ferociously as if its proponent were revolutionary fanatics hell-bent of exterminating them.
***
When white people destroy lives and property, it’s called nation building.
diana6815 wrote:
I think both are usually needed. Without Malcolm X available to play the role of the extremist, MLK would’ve been easier to ignore as just another extremist that needed to be beat down into submission.
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble wrote:
Not to worry, the Oath Keepers are on scene to
shoot some black peopledefend the property. Certainly the biggest concern with Ferguson is that property might not be adequately protected.ck and laurentweppe
You make a good point. MLK needed Malcolm X. And whatever failed to happen then, some change was effected.
The problem is that TPTB will rollback positive change (fighting continued implementation of the Voting Rights Act) and manipulate or rewrite laws (gerrymandering and Voter ID legislation) to maintain the status quo … and even BREAK laws (violence against protesters and unarmed civilians).
I think we need much more radical and much less gradual change.
I heartily disagree with everyone here (and President Obama) that is equating destruction of property with “violence”. Stealing is not violent; beating the shit out of people while wearing riot gear is. Torching buildings or police cars (as long as nobody is in them) is not violent; shooting people is. Destroying the physical manifestations of power is not violent, oppressing people and forcibly taking their dignity from them is. Let’s not equate things with people.
yubal
Good for you.
————–
Seconding Dailillama at #277.
———
opie
Agreed. Same with calling it a riot. Even us allies are using the vocabulary of the oppressors without realizing, which needs to stop.
———————–
Do I want there to be a civil war over this? No, but I’d prefer that then the status quo and just slowly letting POC suffer for another hundred years (at least…).
I’m not going to bother with I don’t condemn blah blah blah.
I’m going to quote Erlend Meyer’s #40 with a slight correction to vocabulary mentioned earlier:
You know I want to see? The next Malcolm X. There’s plenty advocating peace at such a high cost (usually not to themselves…stupid white people) but who’s going to stand up and provide that role? There’s still the Nation of Islam of course, which has this article up:
No Justice, No Peace. Burn it to the fucking ground. I know where I stand.
An option that works? No evidence to show it does. Which is why I don’t take your word for it.
A church where the victim’s father was baptized the week before, and the minister claims the arson was done white folks. Make sure you know who to blame before making blanket accusations. Police planting instigators in a crowd is a very old tactic.
The radicals back during the radicalization of campuses could always tell the police/FBI infiltrators as they personally reported to us non-radicals. They didn’t speak the lingo properly, and always advocated the most violence…..
diana6815 #314
That is hardly a fair characterization of what MLK was doing. He knew that showing up at any demonstration would scare white people. And he did not just sit back and accept scraps from white people. He forced the issue repeatedly. Rosa Parks was not just a random woman protesting. That event was planned and the boycott that happened worked. MLK was in Memphis in order to help unionize the sanitation worker who were working a dangerous job for poverty wages. And he was also organizing a poor people’s march on Washington.
So he was not going for a change in one big action, that is impossible. But do not say that he was passive and was accepting scraps. During the last decade of his live, he was the most feared man in the US. Do you seriously think he did not make use of that?
Janine @326
I was a bit unfair. I apologize. MLK accomplished a lot and did much that scared white people.
It’s not for me to judge his choices or approaches.
All I really meant to say was that there’s still so much left that must change and the ‘establishment’ doesn’t play fair (as if it ever did …) so if people today choose to depart from MLK’s overall vision or tactics, I completely understand.
Protesting … advocating for change is SO HARD. No method is without drawbacks. There is no ‘right’ way to do it.
Janine the Jackbooted Emotion Queen wrote:
Indeed. That’s why so much effort was invested in trying to link him with the Communists. It was true that the Communists generally supported MLK’s cause, but there was never any evidence to suggest the reverse (and it seems history shows that he was very careful to ensure that was always the case by keeping them at a distance). Frankly, there were so many dirty tricks employed against him, that it’s a wonder he managed to succeed as much as he did.
@DavidW (264)
Is there any practical way for the citizens of Ferguson (or other towns) to boycott the police department?
Is there any way to not have a paramilitary force in Ferguson and, thus, creating a police riot? Which was done in order to “quell” the population when a police officer, who was part of a police department that was disbanded for being racist, murdered a black teen.
DavidW, would be nice if you told the members of those department out to defend the state not to engage in violent action.
So much easier to tell the oppressed people not to use violence.
I personally enjoyed seeing a couple of empty police cruisers go up in smoke and regret only the fact they didn’t include those absolutely ridiculous Armored Personnel Carriers. All of this military weaponry and gear must be immediately taken away from police departments. This isn’t a war and a war mindset is completely inappropriate for civilian police departments. War and armed conflict is the very last thing that needs to be on the minds of police officers. Riot gear, shields, phalanxes of officers sweeping the street–it is all so preposterous.
David Wilford 309:
Read the quote I provided back at 214 and then shut the fuck up, you warbling shitheel.
opie wrote:
Not to mention predictable. They receive all these war tools, and then people wonder why they’re eager to start a war. If you give people toys, they’re going to want to take them out and play with them. That’s only human nature.
David,
When I was in school, there was this boy who liked to snap bras and pinch boobs. He’d do it, the girl would shriek, the instructor would laugh it off as ‘boys will be boys’ or worse, tell the girl to ignore it and reprimand her for disturbing the class.
I was one of his targets.
I complained. My parents complained. I even got at least one teacher to complain. At most he’d get a slap on the wrist and then I’d be in trouble for not ‘forgiving’ him after he ‘apologized’.
One day I broke his nose.
The principal called me into his office and started chewing me out. I pulled open my shirt and showed the asshole the bruises the boy had been leaving on my breasts and informed principal that every single time the boy laid a hand on me, I was going to hit him as hard as I could with the intend of doing as much damage as I could.
The boy got suspended. He stopped that bad behavior, for a while anyway. I got suspended as well, for not ‘handling the situation properly’. Except no one could tell me what the ‘proper’ method was supposed to be, considering I’d already tried all of their suggestions and they hadn’t worked.
Now here I am, a social justice warrior. And that boy is in jail for rape and murder, or at least, he’ll be there another couple years, a lesser sentence than is often given to black men who are found in possession of drugs.
So, to sum up, fuck you.
All you assholes do is teach people like that boy that they can get away with it over and over and over again.
Peaceful protests are a viable option, but it’s usually only really effective when it can recruit sympathy from a large segment of society. In that sense, it may be non-violent, but it certainly isn’t impotent. It becomes something very powerful that the establishment simply can’t ignore. The threat may not be obvious, but it’s there and that’s what the establishment responds to. The status quo never changes unless you force it.
However, all that is not what’s happening here. In this case, mainstream America is busy trying to ignore that there’s any problem at all. Until that attitude changes, peaceful protests aren’t going to do jack shit. Indeed, as have been pointed out, even when protestors are peaceful, they’ll still be demonized and cracked down on as if they were violent. Under those circumstances, it would take an outrageous amount of patience and clarity to remain peaceful. I’m not at all sure I’d be able to do that and so I’m hesitant to be very critical of others in that situation.
Violence is never a preferred option, but then we’re already in a situation where violence is rampant; police violence. Any criticism of rioting that isn’t immediately followed by an even harsher criticism of the police, the prosecutors, the media and the general failure of the American establishment as a whole is disingenuous and actively harmful.
Don’t tell people they should be peaceful when they’re being murdered in their own neighborhoods by the people hired to protect them.
@ WithinThisMind #334:
“One day I broke his nose”
Ma’am, can I just say that you’re my kind of woman? That story is going to keep me smiling all day.
WithinThisMind #334
I’d like to buy you a drink or a coffee or a big pile of hugs.
fernando
On what data basis are you making that assumption? On the data basis that after 100 days of peacful protest on the side of the protesters they achieved shit?
David Wilford
1. You ableism is inacceptable. Cut that shit.
2. MLK was murdered for his patience.
3. Black people in the USA are STILL waiting for the fucking results. How many of their children do they have to see dead, how many incarcerated, how many grow up in poverty with no means to escape before they’re allowed to say “this doesn’t work”?
You know what? I don’t advocate for violence. I don’t advocate for non-violence. Why not? Because I am NOT a black person living in the USA. I do NOT pretend to know their situation better than they know themselves and can therefore be their tactical advisor. For you and every other white shithead to do so is being racist, plain and simple.
Yep, you are the arbiter of how much peace must be given a chance. Not the people whose lives are actually at stake. I mean, really, if those slaves could have kept their feet still for another 50 years or so instead of doing that running away thing (that’s property theft!) and rebelling (destroying property!) maybe nice white people could have talked the slave owners out of it. Why was that Civil War such a horrible event again? Oh, right, white people died in it.
++++
Or policing, or Pumpking Fest, or sports event…
I’m not sure MLK and what he said and did is all that relevant.
He and others certainly accomplished many things and legislation got passed. The problem is that the INSTITUTIONAL aspects of what he was fighting against remained in place and they learned their lessons and they never stopped fighting.
That’s why the bankers who broke the financial system got bailed out and got bonuses. That’s why white cops can murder black kids and not stand trial. That’s why America can bomb the Middle East into chaos and never face justice.
MLK won a small victory in a huge battle, but the side that he was fighting for has been losing ever since. The things that he fought for and the unions fought for and women fought for and people that used to care about each other fought for have largely been repealed, ignored or worked around over the last 30 years.
I believe in non-violent protest. That does not mean that it will work.
WithinThisMind @334: [applause]
I saw it pointed out on tumblr yesterday several times that white people riot and destroy property regularly, whenever their favoured sports team loses — or wins — a landmark game. I say “whenever”; clearly I’m being hyperbolic. Still, it happens often, at easily predictable times and places; so why are the National Guard never called out for these…
excesses of sporting zealscenes of mass destruction of property and interpersonal violence?(For clarification: that last is a rhetorical question, but if any apologists for white violence feel like answering it, please feel welcome.)
Seven of Mine
The women: don’t forget about the black women & girls murdered by the police. #BlackLivesMatter (It’s not much of a link, I know, but nobody seems to have written up an article about them yet.)
Thanks for the link, rq.
A powerful read on why “stay calm and wait” is bullshit.
Not that it will do much for our etseemed know it better commenters
Apologies if the specific question has been covered in another thread, but who was responsible for the timing of the grand jury announcement?
It seemed to be timed to maximise the likelihood of violent protest, at night, with stuff on fire. Why not announce it at 10am when people are at work or at school? It’s almost as if they wanted pictures of unrest in order to deflect attention from the massive perversion of justice.
luonlai
Good question, actually – I think it’s either Gov. Nixon or McCullogh the prosecutor – either one of those two smug bastards, or else the benevolent Unified Command made the decision. Either way, yes, it seems like provocation, esp. since there was another press conference at 5.30PM in order to speak about the upcoming announcement. Playing with people.
Also, I’m having suspicions that the announcement was deliberately delayed for the November months and the holidays, for maximally unpleasant protest weather, plus the added ire of regular ol’ ignorant citizens wanting to go about their holiday shopping. See how mean those black folks are, disrupting everyone’s commute and shopping and family plans!!!
I have no doubt, the whole thing was very, very well orchestrated.
BTW, here’s what Angela Davis said.
Well if I can answer in the spirit of David Wilford, they should just refuse to bleed or die when shot. That’ll fix things.
WithinThisMind wrote:
Every time I read this phrase, my brain converts this to “One day, I broke his fucking nose.”. I can’t explain why. Interesting story, and a good bit of evidence why “boys will be boys” fails to serve the interests of both girls and boys. If his actions weren’t always excused away by those with authority, then perhaps someone wouldn’t have been raped and murdered, and perhaps someone wouldn’t have grown up to be a rapist and murderer.
@David Wilford, 278:
Hey pukefuck, I’m being goddamn peaceful. If you’re going to open your mouth in my direction, it goddamn well better be to lick my ass clean in support, you disingenuous authoritarian lickspittle.
Police messed up the gathering of evidence big time. There’s a lot of talk up-thread about “evidence” in general, but no enough attention to big mistakes, big omissions, etc. in gathering a presenting actual physical evidence.
Steve Kornacki goes over the problems one by one.
@WithinThisMind 334:
If the system fails my daughter like that, I hope she breaks a nose too.
Lynna
There was a woman goign through the evidence bit by bit on twitter, too, raising similar questions.
Just more proof that this is exactly the kind of case that should have gone to trial. :(
WithinThisMind #334:
I add my voice to the many others who are supporting you and what you did. And I think you behaved in an entirely appropriate way.
withinthismind
It’s almost as if somebody should have taught him it’s wrong to assault people and that women are not his sex toys when he was young, isn’t it?
I’d like to see stats on how often they actually do it right, given that it’s their job ‘n’ all. When the police tried to railroad me into juvie when I was 17, they hadn’t even taken a statement from the victim until 7 months after the fact, after he’d ID’d me as his assaulter. And the CCTV videotape they claimed to have to get me to come into the station to ‘talk’ (ie, arrest me) had been destroyed days after the incident (so, 7 months before they arrested me). Of course, we took the lead detective to the Law Enforcement Review Board for perjury, but the thin blue line wasn’t about to let one of their own go down for lying in court about the interrogation techniques he used.
Sorry, in case it’s not clear, I was innocent, and the victim simply mistook me for the assailant.
That’s a powerful story, WithinThisMind @334. Thank you.
@349
Well, that’s normally the way I do say it, but I didn’t want to ‘offend’ anyone by using a curse word. You know how the simple presence of a curse word renders a post meaningless and able to be safely ignored ;)
The sad truth of the matter was – I got away with it only due to privilege. I was one of the ‘good kids’, had won medals and the like to contribute to school prestige, and my family were friends with several people involved in the school board. Had I been someone they could safely expel and continue to ignore, that’s probably what would have happened. No, no probably about it. That’s what does happen. I just got lucky enough to be one of the people who ‘mattered’ and so the situation finally got dealt with. Maybe we’ll see some improvement in the situation after the cops kill a few more white middle class cisgender Christian white boys.
Ok, I’m late to this thread, and I’ve only begun to get caught up. That said, I didn’t anticipate getting this pissed off within the first 10 comments.
FUCK YOU CHAS.
Any lingering goodwill I had towards you is fucking GONE. I hope you leave Pharyngula and never come back you unthinking asshole.
No, I’m fucking sure that’s not what he had in mind, but that’s not the goddamned point. The point is black people in this country have no other recourse when.
TheyWe are not treated as human beings. We continue to have our rights denied us. We continue to be shot and killed by cops and enabled by an apathetic populace. We continue to be imprisoned at alarming rates. We continue to be the victims of a white supremacist culture in the United States that has existed since this formation of this country. There is no recourse. If we start talking about racism, some racist denying shitstains always, ALWAYS show up to tell us to stop talking about race. That race no longer is an issue. That we’re causing the racial divisiveness. We’re basically told that the problem is on us.It’s not fucking on us. We didn’t cause this racial divide. Unfortunately, there’s not a damn thing we can do to end it, bc none of the people with power in this country are willing to do anything.
When people who have been oppressed and discriminated against, shat on by their very country and the leaders running that country, when the one avenue we’re told to keep faith in-the justice system-leads to a horrible miscarriage of justice, FUCKING TELL ME, what the fuck do you think people are going to do?
No, violence doesn’t solve anything, but saying something like that at this moment accomplishes nothing. These aren’t people lashing out for nothing. These are people who have been beaten down, who have had their lives shattered, who have been the victims of systemic racism and prejudice at all levels of society. These are people who are lashing out. Yeah, some of them are causing property damage, but again, what the fuck else are they supposed to do? Every other option has amounted to nothing.
At this point, I’m struggling to fight the urge to wish you a horrible day, bc a huge part of me doesn’t want you to have a good day, after your comment. Despite that feeling, I’m going to fight it, and just say I hope you have a great holiday and I hope I never see you fucking nym around here again.
Chas @166:
You unthinking fool. Your intent doesn’t fucking matter. The effect your words have is what matters. And in the eye of this black man, your words upthread do indeed sting. It’s clear you don’t have my back, or the backs of any other person of color. Take your black and white view of the world and fuck off.
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371222-wilson-testimony.html
Wilsons testimony.
What would white people do if black cops started picking off their 18-year old sons (say one a month) and the police department or the justice system refused to change a single thing or charge a single black cop with murder?
Well rehearsed lies, and coached by the prosecutor Makes it meaningless drivel,.
And AtheistPowerlifter, Wilson should never have testified before the grand jury. All it needed for an indictment was a dead body with Wilson’s bullets in it. The resulting trail would determine the facts. Except where the prosecutor is a bigot, and won’t ever indict a cop.
fernando @254:
Since you won’t shut the fuck up with your armchair tut tutting, how about telling us what African-Americans should do to keep themselves safe in the United States when every-fucking-thing else has failed! No one is condoning the violence. What people are saying (and what people like you and our resident fuckwittery filled shitstain Chas keep missing) is the nuance. We don’t condone it, but we understand it. When you’ve nothing else to lose and the people in power aren’t listening to you what the fuck are you supposed to do? Nothing has worked.
So please, oh holy prince of peace, please tell us the most perfectest way for people like me to be treated as human beings in this supposedly “exceptional” country. You seem to have all the answers, so please, pontificate away. Oh wait, you didn’t need permission did you?
I await your answer with breathless anticipation. Hopefully you won’t respond, instead choosing to take Anthony K up on his flower power suggestion.
David Wilford @264:
Has someone on this thread said otherwise Cap’n Preachy?
Shit, that was for DW @ 270. His inane comments are running together for me.
Yep, he is concerned, very concerned, but has no alternative that he can evidence that really works almost every time, that doesn’t hasn’t some other components to it.
Demand a retaliatory genocide and call it self-defense
David Wilford @299:
Define “succeed”.
As has been pointed out a few times, there’s been only incremental progress on the civil rights front over the last 50 years. The Civil Rights Act didn’t magically turn all racists into non-racists. Nor did it erase institutionalized racism.
@300:
You’re repeating yourself too. Perhaps it’s time for you to stop.
@304:
You keep repeating this as if it hasn’t been tried. It has. In far too many cases, it has failed. For some people, they feel that violence is their final resort. Yet you favor telling those people not to take that last resort. You’d rather they just continue not having their voices heard in non-violent protest.
And I note that your tut tutting has been focused on the civil unrest…on what protesters should do, rather than on saying anything about the police response. Rather than tut tutting the police (or perhaps you have; perhaps you’ll regale us with the numerous emails you’ve sent to the Ferguson PD telling them to stop attacking protesters). Rather telling.
****
opie @321:
Thank you. I hope that sinks in to the heads of some people.
Bite me, Cap’n! Preachy!. I did not blockquote it, but you failed to notice that I was responding to a comment that accused me of exactly that, in exactly those words: “I think that Chas gets what he really wants: He uses his privilege to hurt people with less privilege…”
OK? Not my words. Hey, I don’t need to hear about intent-is-not-magic from you. I really don’t.
As for the rest of your hearty fuck-off, let me just assure you with all sincerity that the mere fact that I refuse to be down with burglary and arson does not, in fact, reflect in any way on whose back I do or do not have in general (although burglars? arsonists? no. Yeah, that part’s pretty much black and white; sorry if that displeases you), nor on my relationships with “POC”. You know nothing of me, and if, based on your interpretation of the words I post here, you think you do, it’s only because you, like almost everybody else around here any more, are drunk on ideological confirmation bias. (Which, that’s how you-all like it, so whatever.) I mean please. “Um, sorry, looting’s not cool” makes me racist? That’s, like, beyond irrational. It’s arational.
But I don’t know. You might think about keeping your unsolicited judgements of me to yourself. I keep all kinds of judgements of people I do and do not know to myself, and it doesn’t hurt a bit.
Have a nice Thanksgiving.
Chas @372:
No. I’m not going to do that any longer. I’ve overlooked some of the shit you’ve said in the past, and for the life of me I don’t know why. I’m calling your shit out every fucking time I see it.
Have a fucking nice day yourself you smarmy fuckstain.
oh goody
@ Nerd
Yep I agree with you…a very rehearsed, planned and Coached testimony.
I suspect those seeking to justify their own prejudices will eat it up.
Chas, #372
Saying “looting’s not cool” after seeing this story unfold over the past three months and while being fully aware of the treatment of black people by law enforcement and the justice system is racist.
And Nerd…
Sorry I meant to add: I’m Canadian, and unless I’m mistaken we don’t do a grand jury format here – so it’s bizarre to me (smarter Canadians may correct me on this).
In Atlantic Canada for officer shootings or incidents, there is an SIRT (serious incident response team) investigation by an independent panel (led by a director independent of police and government).
Though I seriously doubt this system is itself without significant faults and biases.
AP
I look at my family and friends of color today and think, if they committed vandalism, arson or larceny in any other situation, I would be disappointed and not on their side. This is not the ‘other’ situation. This is the one situation where the only thing I wish is for them to not get caught. Not for them to not do it. Not because I condone it, but because I cannot understand that amount of anger, helplessness or frustration at a corrupt system. And when they got back down from that breaking point, my reaction wouldn’t be “shame on you” it would be “I’m so fucking sorry…’.
You know, before this thread, I had honestly thought that Chas had finally gotten his prolific insensitive asshole streak relatively under control. I obviously should have known better.
@ Chas
When you show more concern for the fucking Toys R Us than you do for black lives, that’s fucking racist, Chas. The fact that, after however many years, you think you can still saunter in here and pretend that the shit you say has no context says a metric fuckton more about you and your attitudes than it does about anybody else. Your bullshit about how nobody knows anything about you? We know what you say here and we fucking judge you for it. If you want us to think better of you, fucking give us a reason to. If you don’t care, then shut your fucking yap whining about confirmation bias. It’s not confirmation bias to notice that you have the exact same kinds of insensitive, callous, pointless, fucking ignorant shit to puke up every time you open your metaphorical mouth.
Putting “POC” in scare quotes, also pretty racist. But then Chas’ only purpose here seems to be to hurt people and then climb up on a cross when criticized for doing so.
Of course he’ll roll his eyes and sarcastically go, “Oh yeah, you found me out, I love hurting people and playing martyr,” as if it’s SO OBVIOUS that this is the farthest thing from the truth. But you’ll note also that he never bothers to inform us what the fuck he IS doing if it isn’t dishing out contempt and hostility while adding nothing of substance to the conversation.
Chas,
The fact that you have spent all your time in this thread worrying about property loss and your own delicate feelings speaks volumes about whose back you’ve got and your attitude to people of colour. They are your words – would you like to take them back and explain why you are wrong? If not, then you stand by them.
The fact that you dismiss Tony’s anger and don’t bother to respond to substance of #360 says that you really don’t care about the most important part of this – the reasons why people are doing this, the systemic racism which which continues to oppress people.
As you wrote above, I don’t give a fuck what the reasons are for the rage…
That is what makes you look like a racist – not caring about something which only affects people of colour.
Yes, Chas, those are my words, the commenter whose words you quote but carefully not attribute. I stand by them, based on your own actions. Because every fucking time there is a topic where people are commenting whose real and actual lives are at stake you make sure to remind them that there are things you consider more important than their lives, be it fetuses or a toysrus
Chas,
You gotta admit that it is pretty funny all these precious little children of privilege here on this thread pretending to be mean, bad revolutionaries!
When I was a kid, the older brother of one of my classmates killed a guy in a drunken rage — no weapon, just beating and stomping till the victim was dead.
I know what it’s like to have thugs like Michael Brown around.
I feel for the shopowners of all races who have had their lives ruined by these thugs, especially the guy Brown strong-armed in the initial robbery that started all this. (Again, the privileged little things om this thread do not know what it is like for working people to work for years to slowly build a life.)
As to Michael Brown, personally, I’m glad he’s dead.
[Bye. –pzm]
I’ll give you a 10/10 for racism DaveHinCA, but only a 1/10 for trolling efforts. You’re certainly a fuckwit, but yet another dull one.
You’ll get the nice, shiny ban you covert, but you’ll have earned it in pretty poor style.
Well, Chas, look who’s agreeing with you. Maybe that’ll give you a hint. They think you’re on their side…
DaveHinCA @384
Yes, I do as well. They’re called teenagers, not thugs, though, whenever they’re white. I grew up with a bunch of teenagers who made more mistakes than Brown ever did. They were never shot. I was even one of those teenagers. The worst I ever got was my arm behind my back. Maybe that’s because the cop felt in control of the situation. Maybe he didn’t see the stereotypical black thug that everyone else sees, probably because I was white.
And aren’t cops trained to maintain their control at all times, even when in imminent danger? Or isn’t that the main quality we would want to have on the police force? Darren Wilson didn’t sound like a competent cop. He let his fear take control. There was nothing in his testimony that indicated he wanted anything other than his fear to take control. Fear of the black man larger than him. Or hatred. Or loathing. Or contempt. I guess we’ll never get to the real motive for the white cop in a predominantly white police force with his white prosecutor who thought it was disrespectful to the county officers to call in the SHP whose white father was killed by a black man … ; I guess we’ll never get to know his actual motive or the actual events, other than the witnesses who saw Brown stumble forward with his hands up as at least 4 more bullets left Wilson’s gun and entered Brown that horrible tragic day.
But disregard all of that nonsense. Brown was a thug. There, no need to think any more about this icky situation. Let’s all just click and tsk the protestors now, since we know better than they, that they are reacting badly and losing the support of respectable people everywhere.
Also, fuck off, Dave.
Maybe because he knew that if he shot you there’d be dire consequences for him and no one to take his defense by calling you a thug.
DaveHinCA
The two categories aren’t mutually exclusive, you know.
I can see how this is relevant, because that’s exactly what nobody said Brown did. Who killed someone was the cop, wasn’t it? Or has history changed while I wasn’t looking?
Oh, oh, and I’m from Latin America! You know, where bandits are mean and police are meaner, sometimes announcing on social media they’re going on a killing spree. Does that mean I win violence Olympics against Joe the Plumber wannabes?
Yeah, you totes have the moral high ground.
DaveHinCA, #384
Ban, please.
No, I don’t know what it’s like to be black in America, trying to slowly build a life for yourself and/or your children through years of hard work against a system stacked against you… Oh, that wasn’t your point?
Fuck off, DaveHinCA. You know nothing.
DaveHinCa, not one to be outdone, decides to barge in three days into the party and become the worst troll of all. Congratulations, DaveHinCa. You succeeded in being the worst person in the room! I am sure it is honor you are well familiar with, and you needed to fight hard to not lose that crown!
ChasCPeterson @ 372:
Nope, we don’t know anything about you, only what you say here. We have to draw what inferences we can from that.
Odd how pretty much everyone (including those that fervently disagree with everything otherwise said here – witness DaveHinCA @ 384) seems to draw that same conclusion about you.
Either that means that we’re right, and you really are a greasy slimeball and just don’t realize it, or that you really, terribly suck at communicating and should probably quit while you’re behind.
If everyone around you complains about your BO, you can blame all of their noses or your own deodorant – but it’s not all that hard to figure out which is a hell of a lot more likely.
Unless you really, really, don’t want to, of course.
ChasCPeterson @ 372
Looting is not cool. You are right.
Unfortunately for you, looting isn’t the problem at hands. People loot because they have an opportunity to do so. And they shouldn’t. Those looters hijack an fundamentally important cause for their own pathetic reasons. And you, Sir, mix those up.
Get your fucking act together and think for a moment.
Please.
Y.
Unfortunately, that won’t even work… black people are still a threat when dead. That’s why, for example, police shot Kajieme Powell and then handcuffed his dead body. NYMag:
Oh, and as of last week, Powell’s family still knows nothing much about how he died, not even the names of his killers. (via rq in the Later This Morning thread)
Giliell @386:
I doubt he’ll get the hint. He’d have to pull his head out of his ass and stop wallowing in his privilege long enough to grasp the points that I made in #360 (points which others have made, and which many people in this thread don’t seem to have a hard time grasping).
But yeah, when you have a racist troll agreeing with you, there might be a problem with your position.
****
I know xe is banned, but this gem from DaveHinCa is rich:
Xe knows nothing of the lives of anyone here, yet presumes that we’ve had it easy and never struggled to slowly build a life. Did the little fucknuggett actually think that we all sit around in cushy multimillion dollar homes jetsetting around the world to parties and atheist conventions? The $50 I have to my name isn’t likely to be much help in getting me to those parties and conventions.
Oh, and boyohboy, xe also shows xe doesn’t understand privilege.
****
Bernard Bumner @382:
Thank you for this.
What?
No it doesn’t.
Are you really drawing conclusions about what you think I think from the stuff that I did not write?
Jesus fuck. “The fact that [I] dismissed Tony’s anger [did I?] and [didn’t] bother to respond to substance of #360 says” only one thing: it says that I’m not talking about “the reasons”. I’m talking about something else instead. (In that case, it was the spanky talking-to that Tony! thought I deserved (and that he had some sort of moral standing or high ground that entitled him to deliver) even though it was all based on an uncharitable misreading on his part. (If I had done that he’d have gotten a “my bad” from me.))
I have been very clear about the single limited opinion I wanted to express (viz., that I cannot condone the arson, burglary, and injury that accompany
riotsSpontaneous Mob Actions, no matter how righteous the anger sparking it. That’s a clear statement that anybody is free to agree or disagree with, but that’s all it is. You–none of you–are unwarranted in mind-reading anything else about what I’m doing or saying or thinking. Really. Check the confirmation bias.Similarly, If I feel disdain for all y’all brave allies cheering on thieves and arsonists from your keyboards and asses because *clenched-fist salute* reasons–and I do–that has absolutely nothing to say about my feelings about racial oppression. Nothing.
Tony!!, you’ve become a smug prick. If my avowed dismissal of arson and burglary as legitimate forms of social protest really strikes you as “wallowing in privilege,” then I really just don’t know what to say to you. I’ll tell you again, though, that you know nothing. about. me. So please: stop misreading shit and making shit up and then castigating me for it.
(I didn’t read any comments above that one, nor am I able to right now, so you-all would also be unwarranted in mind-reading anything about what it means that I didn’t reply.)
burning bridges
Then please stop posting shit that you can be castigated for, like not being sympathetic to the bigotry that leaves rioting as the only way to get the attention of the establishment. If you have a better plan, express it, and show it does work more often than not. Or just let it go.
as I remember it one of the things that really helped to turn the public around besides the eloquent rhetoric of Dr. King and the righteousness of the issue, it was plainly deep in the principles on which this country claims to be founded on.
It was also deeply disturbing to see the how the police acted against the marchers which was shown on the evening news. Those images were very powerful and it was the savagery of the violence directed against the protesters that helped turn the general public toward a more sympathetic view of the civil rights movement.
In advocating for none violent protests do not think that there will not be violence.
If they do not provoke any response they will accomplish nothing. Gandhi new this and so did all of the organizers of those civil rights marches and the anti-war marches. That is one of the most important parts of the preparations. Preparing the marchers for the inevitable attacks. Protest demonstrations are a provocation and are meant to provoke otherwise why do it.
If not now when?
Uncle frogy
… We were cheering on thieves and arsonists?
unclefroggy
It seems to me that by now large parts of the American public see whatever brutality police use as justified. They supported the brutality against the peaceful, nonviolent Occupy movement (which was much whiter, too, which happened on campuses, too).
Chas @ 398
Yes. The only thing you had to say was that you condemn the looting. You don’t care to condemn the injustice that led to it; only the looting. As you said, there is exactly one opinion you cared to express. That’s not mind reading Chas, it’s just fucking reading.
We’re not misreading you and then castigating you for it. We’re castigating you for exactly what you say. If there’s something more we need to know in order to understand your position on this FUCKING. SAY. IT. Don’t fucking give us only part of the story and then piss and moan and whine that we fail to understand your exquisitely nuanced position.
they did seem support the suppression of the occupy movement encampments but I do not know what would have happened if they had not just stopped demonstrating they just kind of faded away. The civil rights movement kept at it for quite some time. I does look like as long as there were ongoing demonstrations there was forward movement. Some how from a number of factors the momentum slowed. The fervor has diminished whether it is that the issues of today require another approach or another articulate inspirational leader or maybe a new incident like to spark more action I do not know. I know it is for the long hall that we all must look for nothing as truly great as the change we desire to accomplish will ever happen quick nor easy. There will be much to weep over before it is through. nothing is permanent except death
uncle frogy
I would add that the news coverage was some what different and the access was much better in the day. The powerful have learned how better to control what is seen and what is not by design and the media ever interested in selling advertizing always seem to play along as long as they can increase eyeballs.
there is a lot of crap information that gets repeated too much.
uncle frogy
Right, Chas, I disagree with you. This is why.
1. Going around shooting people dead and pretty well at random is actual mob violence. The fact that the gunmen are wearing police uniforms or that the shootings tend to happen one at a time does not change that.
2. On the day the Grand Jury decision was announced – at the worst possible hour and after the maximum possible build-up of tension – the places which were burnt out were mainly African-American owned businesses and the #HealSTL store-front office, suggesting that at very least the people doing it were not locals. Oh, and the Brown family’s church after 70-odd death threats to the pastor there.
3. One hundred days plus of overwhelmingly peaceful protests produced what? A couple of mentions by the President and absolutely no attempt by local officials to calm or to negotiate a modus operandi with the local people. Or rather there were couple of ineffectual attempts which were promptly blown out of the water by the very next action of the state.
4. On day one – the day of the killing of Michael Brown – when his neighbours and family expressed concern, the police arrived to monitor the demonstrations, something they are perfectly entitled to do, but dressed and equipped for World War 47 The Movie. Ramping up tension, no?
5. In the course of all this members of the press have been arrested on the flimsiest of pretexts, designated safe spaces have been attacked by police and Amnesty International observers were tear gassed. Don’t you have a First Amendment lying around somewhere?
6. And now you want to blame Tony! who has offered insights with wit and coherence. Did you never ask yourself why a man with a university education and those excellent communication skills is happy to be working as a bar tender in a mid-sized town in Florida after many months of unemployment? At very least, distinguish between not liking what he says and not liking the man himself.
7. If you don’t want to discuss what is happening in Ferguson, why it is happening, what can be done about it – fair enough. Then go away. Just don’t try to use your snark to persuade others that they’re not allowed to discuss it either because (a) you won’t achieve that and (b) you are forgetting the ethos of this blog, its respect for facts and its more diverse set of regulars.
Maureen Brian
I think that’s one of the clearest summaries of Ferguson etc. I’ve read. With your permission, I’d like to post it up on the Later This Morning thread – or you can put it there yourself. Please?
rq,
Yes, of course, but remember I’m in a small town in the wilds of Yorkshire! I haven’t managed to follow all of that thread though I do appreciate your efforts so I’ll ask you to do it, please.
Maureen Brian
Thanks, and doesn’t matter where you are, you have a distinct clarity in viewing events and a remarkable ability to set that clarity down in writing. Must be the Irish distillation skills at work; I love your comments.
Maureen Brian is one of the regulars whose comments I make a special effort to read. rq is another.
I read an interesting take on this on Facebook today: When the law fails to recognize you as human, the law has broken the social contract – so what reason, other than fear of punishment/revenge, have you left to respect the law?
Neurotypical people do that. I’m still not used to it either.
…Why would he need to state the obvious – again, after it’s been stated so often in this thread? Do you seriously believe he’s OK with the injustice just because he hasn’t said otherwise – and that on Pharyngula, not the ?
Just in the previous paragraph you castigated him because he did not say something.
It’s the principle of the dog that didn’t bark. I’m not sure if it has anything to do with neurotypicalness, many other non-neurotypical folks here seem to see it like that, too. If you take great effort to mention only ONE thing while being very silent on the other things, you don’t think the other things important enough to mention. At least not as important as the thing you did comment on.
If your sister pushed you down the stairs, and you then tore the head of her doll and your parents went to great length to tell you how wrong you were to damage the doll while your eye is swelling shut and the bruises appear on the body and you’re not quite sure if you might have a cracked rib while never mentioning the pushing down the stairs, would you think “yeah, it’s pretty obvious that she shouldn’t have pushed me, therefore they don’t mention it”?
David Marjanović @ 412
One fucking sentence after you bemusedly observe that neurotypical people draw conclusions from things people don’t say, you wonder why I don’t conclude that Chas condemns the injustice just because he’s posting on Pharyngula and because others have said it? Really? I’m supposed to conclude things about Chas from things other people say? Chas rarely, if ever, comments here unless it’s to express contempt for the reasoning of the regulars without ever even stating his own position on anything, let alone justifying it. Why the ever loving fuck would I assume he’s in agreement with anything anyone here says?
Leaving that aside, don’t fucking try to tell me it’s unreasonable to infer things about someone based on the choices they make. Nary a word about people being murdered for existing, but oh em fucking gee, better make sure everyone knows he does not approve of damaging the precious fucking Toys R Us. Don’t fucking tell me not to infer anything from that.
I castigated him for lamenting the loss of the fucking Toys R Us in the context of this ongoing situation.
David Marjanović @ 412
The problem is that by pointing out that looting is the problem and not the injustice that caused the looting, you are siding with the oppressors and not those really being oppressed. It’s an authoritarian mindset many of us have been arguing against since this whole thing started, law and order above all. It’s like saying I went to far to chase down and tackle someone who was trying to steal my wallet. Why did you have to assault them and cause scratches on their knees, you could have reasoned with them and called the police?
Peaceful protests, writing your congressmen, letter writing campaigns, DO NOT WORK when systems are interested in maintaining an unfair advantage over the oppressed. Sure looting and fires aren’t nice, but something needs to be done to get people to pay attention. When people pay attention and focus on the looting, it shows pretty clearly where they stand. If you are more worried about Toys R Us than black people being murdered, then you are an asshole. If you are more concerned about black people being murdered why the hell bring up Toy R Us?
Yep, wanted to add that: The “obvious” is fuck obvious at all.
Look at the racist fuckwit DaveHinCA, who obviously thought that Chas was obviously agreeing with him.
You cannot complain that people indeed judge you for things you don’t say and then demand that they read people’s mind and assume all the things people would apparently say and simply go on from that.
Obvious my fuck.
chas in three lines:
“I don’t have a dog in this fight.”
“Then why are you throwing rocks at the grey dog and ignoring the brown dog?”
“Brown dog? What brown dog?”
Re: “Obvious my fuck”
Of course Richard Dawkins thinks all rape is bad, isn’t that obvious? He is just doing thought experiments and breaking down basic logic. Why would you think he dismisses any kind of rape? – Dawk defender
Yeah, something is obvious just not what you think is obvious.
rq, #402
Yup. No context at all. We turned on the TV, saw a store burning, and liked it.
Chas, #398
There isn’t a “single limited opinion” possible in this scenario. Three months worth of events led to the revolting and you definitely are aware of them. So there are only two options: you’re messing with us or you’re racist.
Saad
Maaaan, nothing beats a good arson on a slow Friday night.
Al Dente
Well, gee, thanks. :)
I think one thing that bears mentioning, is that the police in this country have a long history of infiltrating groups, and the infiltrators either incite violence, or suborn somebody in the group to do so. So, I don’t necessarily think if a store or car burns, it was the fault of the demonstrators. It might be the excuse caused by the police infiltrator for the police to act, and the store is just collateral damage.
This says it wonderfully.
White supremacy groundhog day…
Nerd
It’s been suggested in Ferguson, too. :(
Grand jury refuses to indict policemen for death of Eric Garner, although illegal chokehold caught on tape.
[link at theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/03, eric-garner-grand-jury-declines-indict-nypd-chokehold-death]
Two people have been livestreaming protests in NYC
http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3634145
James from the Internet is done for the night, but his last stream is still up (72nd to 100th)
Part of the protesters are on the Brooklyn Bridge now
http://www.ustream.tv/uneditedcamera