Fort Gordon, in Augusta, Georgia. I’m down here for my son’s graduation ceremony: he and a small cohort of other highly trained individuals are now Signal Corps Captains, so we were down here to give him a thumbs-up before he ships off to Korea.
He’s the tall one on the far left, Captain Connlann Myers.
I couldn’t help but compare it to academic graduations. One huge difference: the army really emphasizes family life. It is simply taken for granted that the men and women in military careers will get married and will have children, and that the military has to accommodate that fact. It was radically different from the attitude for advanced students in the sciences: you will do science all the time, and while some of you might have families someday, don’t expect scientific institutions to support you in any way in that waste of your time.
We might be wise to learn this one thing from the army. While these men and women are going off to potentially dangerous situations, it’s understood that families are part of what people do; in the sciences, we seem to think that even our calm, mostly safe, very secure positions, we must not risk our careers by living like ordinary people.
Different uniforms? They’re sending mixed Signals.
Congrats to Captain Myers.
Good on the Army to recognize that it is not the be-all and end-all of a person’s life, but with 7+ billion people trudging around on the planet, a bit of a nod to those who choose a child-less life might be appreciated.
I thought CPT Myers was an Armor officer. Or is this guy in a tank someone else?
Bill Mauldin voiced his opinion about tanks.
Congrats. Signal Corps! Those are the brainy ones, right? One of my best friends was in Signal Corps during Vietnam. Very bright guy.
moarscienceplz,
I don’t understand why you’ve said this:
The army recognises that being childless or having a family life are both options, while for science academics it almost appears as if the default assumption is to choose to be childless. This is particularly hard on women in the sciences, because the time to establish a career is close to the time they need to start a family. Simply being an academic couple means that you need jobs in close proximity. This even has a name: the “two-body problem”.
My son is not married and is childless. There is no pressure to be otherwise — it’s just that if you do have a family, it’s not regarded as some aberration.
He was in armor. When the option came to go for advanced training, though, he decided there was more of a civilian future in the skills acquired in the Signal Corps than being able to drive a tank and fire a cannon.
Ah, but does he have “Atheist” dogtags (as if it was any of my business!)
#5 echidna
I have no experience of the Army (U.S. or otherwise). I was just going on what the OP said, and maybe unconsciously assuming the Army was of the “be fruitful and multiply” mindset. PZ at #6 says my assumption was wrong – good to hear, although from some of the things I’ve read about the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, my apprehension was perhaps not entirely without merit.
I was a sig-pig back in the day myself, and my totally unbiased opinion is that we were the smart ones, yeah. ;)
MSGSTART FLASHTRAFFIC 2233Z Congrats to Capt Myers, may your career be 5×5 under good atmospherics. MSGEND
I got to know some of the ROTC officers when I was teaching. Their career paths were all over the place, including teaching for 2 years at a ROTC program. The armed services approved of new training and experience in units other than where they started. Many obtained graduate degrees while they taught.
Congratulations to Captain Myers. Hopefully his life’s journey will interesting and fulfilling.
I’m sure he is a good lad, being the son of Mary and Paul. However I can’t help feeling sorry and doubtful for anyone who voluntarily joins the Empire’s war machine. Hope he gets out in time, unhurt and uncorrupted.
Hey, Korea! I was there when I was in the Army. But that was 40 years ago and I suspect things are just slightly different now.
I recall meeting a signal corps type (actually ASA, the Army part of NSA) who’d just returned from installing illegal listening equipment in the DMZ. The North Koreans came on a loudspeaker, greeted him by name, and said they hoped he enjoyed his stay in the DMZ while doing exactly what he was doing.
Kevin Kehres: “Congrats. Signal Corps! Those are the brainy ones, right?”
My brother was in the Signal Corps, his undergraduate degree was in electrical engineering (in the early 1970s). In the early 1990s he got a Master’s in Computer Science as part of an Army education program. He went from installing radio towers to working with computers.
After he retired he joined the State Department and does computer work for embassies. Mostly because he got bored staying in one place, and he really likes to travel.
Signal Corps electronics training has kept me in jobs for most of my life. And I never had to shoot anyone or get shot at.
Congratulations and best wishes to your son.
I have to go with Olav on this one. I can’t support anyone joining or serving in the U.S. military in any branch or capacity at this time. I make allowances for financial need and lack of options, but I’m not seeing that as the case here; I feel certain that he would have been able to obtain a university degree and a technical education by other means.
Doubting Thomas#15
I’m glad that it worked out for you, but I still don’t approve of having to filter the funding to teach people useful skills through joining a group of organized murderers.
Congrats to the Cap’n, and thanks to CaitieCat for prompting me to look up “5 by 5” and find out the origin for Faith’s use of the term. Good to know.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy @#17
IMO, there’s nothing wrong or dishonorable about serving in the military. The military is an instrument of the state; it’s the leaders of the state that direct them, they don’t just randomly involve themselves in conflicts. Too, if you think that the work you do with “a university degree and a technical education” isn’t leveraged just as much by those same leaders in order to pursue their goals, then you’re being naive. Moreover, the military here (northwest Washington state, primarily navy folks) are instrumental in supporting civilian missions in ways that never receive civilian funding. Mountain & backcountry rescue teams spring to mind immediately–you cannot purchase and maintain blackhawk rescue helicopters or keep a flight crew trained on United Way donations, and the public at large consistently blames those needing rescue for “getting themselves into trouble,” so you’ll never see those operations funded by the legislature.
Those who object to the military as a career, take it to the Thunderdome.
If you can’t congratulate Captain Myers, or have to add something anti-military, don’t say anything here. That’s common politeness for this type of thread.
Congratulations and Best Wishes to Captain Myers.
–
I figured it was probably a standard branch transfer arrangement. Many Officers don’t get their first pick, or even their second, and we are required to have at least one Combat Arms branch* among our top-three choices. A good number of those forced into Combat Arms are guaranteed the opportunity to switch branches to their first choice via a transition course at or very soon after making Captain.
#1
These courses frequently have a notable number — usually around 5-10% — of foreign officers attending. When I went to the Military Intelligence course, we had 5 in a class of less than 40. I even got a medal for acting as a sponsor for one.
* Combat Arms branches are Infantry, Armor, Field Artillery, Air Defense Artillery, Aviation, and Special Forces, though I’m not sure that SF counts as filling the quota in your top-three choices.
MrFancyPants#19
As we so often state in these parts, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. The U.S. military is, right now, an instrument of global terror and devastation. That is the actual use to which it is actually being put, in real time. Choosing to join this military, at this time, can, in my mind, only be interpreted as support for that use, because that’s what’s happening, right now. I will further note that I specified the U.S. military, as there certainly exist militaries which are not principally used for indiscriminate mass murder (Japan’s springs to mind immediately), but that of the U.S. is principally an instrument of imperalism and terror.
I’m pretty sure fry-cooking in a drag bar isn’t a big part of servicing the military-industrial complex, and I’m no happier about people who go into the arms industry. See, the actions of leaders that I object to them leveraging resources towards are the ones where they send people off to go commit mass murders. The government leveraging people’s technical skills to, say, create a proper 21st century network infrastructure, I’d be all about that.
All of which would be better and more efficiently done by an organization constituted, organized, and equipped for that particular purpose. The entire point of my initial post is that we should be funding things like education, disaster relief , etc. directly, not as a by-product of a stupendously wasteful murder machine. And don’t give me this ‘no political will so there’s nothing we can do’ shit. With that kind of apathy there’s never fucking going to be any political will to do it either, is there?
Nerd
Bite me. This is a rude blog, it says so right in the rules, and we’ve never been a place to let tone-trolling get in the way of substantive discussion.
Except you offer no discussion. Just “I don’t like the military”. Which is why it needs to be in the Thunderdome.
And I have known many military people over the years, including several relatives. None wanted war. But they would do their job.
#23: See, it’s different, now, this is PZ’s kid; it’s okay. If the kid’s family was Republican and Christian, he’d be a war criminal.
#15: That’s great. So others did the killing and dying and you benefited. Why am I not surprised?
Evidence?
#27: Reading this blog for the past five years.
No citation, no evidence, just your views.
I forgot to add, in my last post: congratulations to Captain Myers!
#28, I will concede that those who aren’t in the front line making decisions for those who are (the politicians and their backers), are criticized. You will find very little condemnation of individual military people here. If you can’t tell the difference, what is your real problem?
#29: I cite the entirety of this blog, and the comments, over the last five years. The only people I know who are more self-righteous and hypocritical are Christians.
@#1 Rob Grigjanis:
@#22 Ryan Jean:
That’s probably why, though I first thought it might have been a few soldiers still holding onto their old green Class As, since the wear out date isn’t for another few months. Looking closer, the only one that could possibly be the old one is the middle guy kneeling, but even that uniform doesn’t look quite right.
I was in when they started to transitioned over to ACUs in 2005 (the blue/gray digital combat uniforms, for those who don’t know) and that continued to be a mixed mess of old and new through the time I got out a couple years later. Turns out the universal pattern was a totally ineffective camouflage, the introduction of which cost billions, and now every service has a different looking combat uniform.
Anyway…my congrats to the new captain!
Oh cool, I’m in GA too :)
Hearty congratulations to Captain Myers!
Please tell Army Captain Myers congratulations from a long-time AF spouse.
For those who are questioning the uniforms, we’ve lived on or near purple facilities (Joint services bases for those who aren’t familiar with military jargon). We are used to seeing uniforms from all of the US branches, as well as a few foreign officers.
We’ve found this to be especially true of military educational settings. It simply makes sense to share those facilities and instructors.
Congratulations to Capt. Myers! I’ve never been military, but only have to go out to the cousin level to hit representatives of 5 of the 6 branches in my family, currently serving and vets, ranging in career paths from basic enlistee foot soldiers to Annapolis grads (well, only one of those). May he get good assignments and frequent leaves.
I have a few thoughts about the other discussion, but I will take those to Thunderdome.
HolyPinkUnicorn @33 and others. I wasn’t questioning the uniforms, just making poor quality word play.
thesoftmachine @#25 & #28
When in the past five years (or ever) has PZ posted a picture of a Republican and/or Christian in the military, and stated that that individual was a war criminal for no other reason than their being in the armed forces?
Congratulations to Capt Myers!
thesoftmachine
but failing to comprehend…
@Rob #37
No problem, I was just a bit confused myself before I looked at the full size version.
My dad was in the infantry then transferred to the signals for the same reason. Congratulations to Captain Myers.
Well done, that Captain! I hope you continue successfully and wish you well.
Now, I’m going to bask in reflected happy parent feelings.
Being in the military is one of the inherently immoral professions. I’d consider it embarrassing enough to be down with marketing and being a police officer, but, whatever.
Congratulations, Captain Connlann Myers.
# 23 dalilama. A few people here mentioned leveraging their military experience into university degrees. I wonder if they had to pay anything for their studies or was the tab picked up by the military? I would agree with the soldiers getting a free education if everyone does. The GI Bill was a great idea, but back then going to a university wasn’t that expensive for others either. At least civilian students shouldn’t now pay more than soldiers, if they are indeed subsidized.
# 11 Nerd the Redhead. In high school in the 60’s, I knew one person in the ROTC. He was my age and a neighbor and friend. Even at the time, I was pretty sure he was homosexual, which I found ironic. Of course I never talked to him about it given the times. He died quite young, before forty, from some disease but I never dared to ask for more details. I have my speculation though, which might be totally wrong.
An aside, I had another high scchool friend who joined the army during Vietnam and he was killed there barely in his twenties. Two of my cousins were called up. One recently died after a years long disease and the other was recently diagnosed with a form of leukemia. Both are likely due to their exposure to American chemical weapons like agent orange. No one else in my family has had anything remotely similar.
Congratulations. Good on Connlann.
“… the army really emphasizes family life.”
It is the patriotic duty of every soldier to spawn more soldiers. That is why the vast majority of soldiers are given poverty wages (Google how many members of the US Armed Forces are on food stamps and must rely on usurious payday loans. I’ll wait): so that the children of soldiers will have no option but to join up when they reach adulthood.
Congratulations to your son and may he continue to give you much joy.
To those who do not support Capt. Myers joining the armed forces please think about what would happen if only those with a conservative mindset joined, we do not yet live in a world where the military can be disbanded.
He could always join the police.
Gregory in Seattle@48
This somewhat mirrors my experience in the Army. Single soldiers were routinely disadvantaged on things like leave and duties on weekends. “Oh, you aren’t married? So that means you can pull duty while Pvt. Derf and the rest of the platoon go see their wives (All male units, so wives it was at the time). This was, and by all reports still is, a huge damn problem.
@PZ:
Congratulations on your son getting the hell out of combat arms and into something productive! (Former Infantry here, that shit was a mistake and a half)
Charles Thornton #49:
Same difference. Whether progressive or conservative, if you are in the military you (must, actively) support its actions. Or were those soldiers who invaded Iraq in 2003 given any choice?
Disbanded, no. Reduced to half its size, several times over, yes.
It’s one thing to join your country’s armed forces to help defend said country in times of trouble or to take part in proper UN/humanitarian missions. But the US military in its current shape serves a completely different purpose.
Congratulations to the good Captain Myers. I was a USN signalman for 20 years, which is not the same thing but similar.
HHurricane
SM1(SW) USN (ret)
My experience as an academic in the humanities was constantly banging against the assumption that I should have a “stay at home spouse” to be handling all the regular errands and chores necessary to keep things functioning like doing laundry and going to the grocery store. Except, of course, I didn’t, and those things still had to get done. But when I expressed a need to not be at work for 70 hours a week for that reason, I got contemptuous looks from the higher ups. How dare I not commit every waking hour of my life to my job? One of the reasons I left.
I strongly oppose the current actions of the military. However, what I oppose are the policy abuses that lead to throwing military weight at the weak. The soldiers I’ve talked to feel the same way.
I agree that the military ought to be greatly reduced in size. I also think that reduction should be accompanied by an increase in the social safety net, greater educational opportunities, and investment in civilian infrastructure. Do both, and everyone is happy, and we’ll have a stronger country. Just shut down the military, and we’re in big trouble. Most of the soldiers you want to disband are there because they were part of the working poor and had few options.
My son was not, however. He had completed a degree at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, in English. He chose that subject because he loved it, but note…the US provides relatively few opportunities for English majors, and our culture even denigrates such learning. He needed a career and he needed to radically change his focus, and the military provided that.
Dear Marcus Ranum (& others),
On behalf of my late father who fought in the Spanish Civil War (briefly, he was persuaded to return to the UK with his new bride, my mother) and throughout World War 11 with the British army, please accept a thousand fuck yous.
Atentamente,
Don Quijote.
Congratulations to Captain Connlann Myers.
Al Dente – he can be Signal Corps. and still be in an Armor unit, thus putting him in the TC seat of a bradley or an APC.
Dalillama and Marcus Ranum: I look forward to the publication of your treatise How To Live Relatively Guilt-Free in Omelas Without Walking Away: I’m Better Than You and I’ll Tell You Why.
Congrats to Cpt Myers.
Retired Army 1991 20 years Field Artillery. REDLEGS RULE !! .. with a lot of assistance from Signal.
PZ Myers #55:
I know you are critical of your country’s military adventures and I certainly would not expect any less from you.
They can talk and feel all they want. But so far as they still knowingly and willingly carry out those policies they are just as culpable as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld in my eyes. Of lesser crimes perhaps, and it would be impractical (and unthinkable) to put them all in jail, but guilty nonetheless.
I mean this. I have zero respect and/or patience left for such excuses as “but I was just serving my country” or “but I was only following orders.”
It’s never going to happen of course, thanks to America’s useless Repucratic and Demoblican parties. But cut the military to size first and there will probably be more than enough money for those other priorities that you mention. If only!
If I had a child in the military I would still love them as I am sure you do with your son, but I would also advise them in the strongest possible terms to get the fuck out of there and to look for a more honest career. It would be a huge point of contention.
I was a USAF Communications/Electronics officer in 80’s. I know we were the smart ones because my classes were full of USAFA grads.
Never got atheist on my dog tags, closest I got was “none”. Always felt the US military needed more people like me and my liberal, godless ways.
Worked with homosexuals, male and female both. Never had a homosexual of either sex try to break down my door or disparage me. Can’t say the same about straight military males. Frequently attended military formal events with gay guys. A pleasure to dance and hang with a great smelling guy who could dance and not expect a blow job.
Oh, and yes, my tags read NRE, for No REligion; when my Sgt asked whether I was sure, I told him that if I’m going to bleed to death under a West German hedge, I sure as fuck don’t want some geezer shaking chicken bones over me while I’m about it, or whatever it is that chaplains do for dying people.
I did go to a brigade church parade once, while on exercise, but it was more for the two-way ride in the Chinook than the blahblah at the talky time, which I cheerfully slept through. Thankfully, the CF never went in much for churchy stuff, so it was generally optional (save Remembrance Day ceremonies).
Make sure he contacts his Family Readiness Liaison at his new station so that he gets put into the Army FRG (Family Readiness Group). You can then subscribe to their site to be kept up to date on what’s going on with his Unit.
I have to go with Olav and Dalillama here. I don’t see any way a career in the current US military can be anything other than completely unethical. And Nerd, if I see PZ asking for comments such as this to be taken to the Thunderdome, I’ll do so – it’s his blog. Not on your say-so.
It depends which military and when. The US military is the central institution in maintaining the rule of the rich and powerful in today’s world. You might argue that it’s the banks, or the mega-corporations generally, but they depend on the USA’s ability (aided by its sidekicks such as the UK) to maintain sufficient control over the supply of key commodities – most notably oil – and the trade routes along which they travel – and that control is maintained by military spending almost equal to that of the rest of the world combined, and a network of hundreds of military bases. It is impossible to understand the history of the past 70 years without grasping those facts. Yes, you can point to good things the US military does, but its central mission is to preserve and extend US hegemony, and in pursuing that mission over those 70 years, it has regularly slaughtered large numbers of innocent people. Capt. Myers, like any other member of the US military, may be called upon at any time to join in such a slaughter for the benefit of those who dominate the world. As for the second half of what I quoted from you, that’s just crap: it depends what you do, and who you work for.
As part of the military industrial complex for nearly 35 years, I’ve done my best from the inside to instill rational liberal values in the communication satellite programs I’ve worked, maybe even with some success. Almost all of the Air Force types I’ve worked with have been smart well meaning young people who are mostly quite impressive. Many (but not all) are a little deceived by national leadership and pundits but capable. I always figured helping the military communicate was the best way I could help keep fear from taking over. I wish I could disable some cable news satellites, they aren’t contributing to society much.
I’m a civilian who works with military officers daily. I can vouch that the officers’ corps isn’t nearly as conservative as people on this blog tend to assume. Most officers are at least halfway intelligent and level-headed, and the distribution of political viewpoints among them pretty well mirrors the US as a whole, as far as I can see. I worked a couple years for a Marine General who had earlier in his career overseen a construction project to expand the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Immediately after his retirement he gave an interview to the LA Times where he said that he is ashamed of how that prison is now used. (Google “michael lehnert” and read about it.)
In a 20-year military career they see good policies and bad policies come and go. Such is life.
randay#46
Yes, the government picks up the tab for qualfiying soldiers, sailors, etc. This is a major problem withe the way educational funding in the U.S. works (one of many, but that’s another story).
Charles Thornton#49
Bullshit we don’t. There’s no reason the U.S couldn’t function perfectly well with no armed forces save the National Guard, Air Guard, and Coast Guard.
PZ Myers
No more is my degree in Community Development, about which all the same things can be said and which has done me fuck all financial good so far. Indeed, I come from a very similar background to Connlann in a lot of ways, which is why I have so much less sympathy for his choice than I do for a lot of vets and soldiers I’ve known in my life. I’ve found ways to get by, which have involved some fucking lean times and some shit jobs, and some leveraging of privilege here and there if I’m honest, but that’s exactly my point. People who have viable choices (which is to say, people with the right kinds of privilege) have a greater ethical duty in the choices that they actually make.
Don Quijote#56
You will note that I have carefully limited my discussions to the U.S. army in the present day and relatively recent past, and to armies of imperialism generally by extension. For all I’m a committed pacifist, the Quinta Brigada are heroes of mine, and I’ll say very little ill of them (They could have been some considerable better organized, but that’s really my only quibble).
Rob Grijanis #58
It starts with dropping the Calvinist bullshit that all sins are exactly equivalent and recognizing that even when all the choices are bad, some are worse than others.
joel#66
I don’t give a flaming fuck what their personal politics are; their personal politics are completely beside the fucking point. As you would know, if you’d actually been reading the damn discussion.
Nick Gotts#64 I see you don’t approve of the use of US military power in the last 70 years. So that would be, hmmm, since 1944 right ?
Dalillama @67:
All sins are not equivalent. Some are just more visible and prone to attack by facile arguments. If my choice was between a minimum wage job with no security, and a chance to learn a trade, I would choose the latter. If the latter at some point demanded that I commit murder, I would (I hope!) decline, regardless of the consequences. If I worked for an insurance company which demanded I wrongfully deny coverage to an ailing client, I would (I hope!) decline, regardless of the consequences.
billforsternz@68,
Your point being? I suggest you tell me, if indeed you have a point, in Thunderdome, where this discussion has mostly moved.
Congratulations. Schlep all the naches you can.
I’m racially Jewish, so I have my own view on the military, since we Jews were kept out of military service since maybe Constantine and into the Enlightenment. Being able to serve in the military, even if it means fighting and killing, is an important part of being a member of society. I’m not saying every war is just or everything a soldier does is just unicorns and rainbows, but there is an awful lot of necessary crap that needs to be done. Modern warfare makes soldiering even more open to more people. There’s a saying that a Colt 45 is the great equalizer. So what if you’re a 90 pound woman. Fire using both hands. Your target will be just as dead.
Maybe I’ve absorbed that western bias towards the military. The Chinese always held their soldiers in raw contempt. Didn’t they say that no one uses his best iron to make nails? At least our soldiers represent some part of our society, not some foreign elite.
The Signal Corps is amazingly necessary. The guys I knew from the Corps usually joked about it. “Hey, I was backup communications at Yalta.” Did we need to hear about that? They were often the “techies” who learned their trade in the vacuum tube era, but then moved on to the computer age. Did you know that Tiros iconoscope tubes had to be rotated regularly like champagne bottles? What a job. I always had a lot of respect for those guys. If nothing else, they could fix the gear I was using. It’s easy to diss them, but the number of dead and the damage done by bad communications is often astounding. I hope your son does really well in the Corps.
Very impressive! Our congratulations to Captain Myers.
Nick Gotts #70. I thought my point was pretty damn obvious. But since you insist; it seems your comment implies you don’t approve of the military defeat of the the Third Reich and Fascist Imperial Japan. A strange take on things I’d have thought.
billforsternz #73:
You’ve been asked to take that conversation to the Thunderdome. Please do so.
Daz #74 Sorry, I misread and didn’t notice that the thunderdome request was not optional. I will pass as I don’t really do the thunderdome. Sorry for making one more comment in this thread.
Congrats to Captain Myers! Of the people I know who have done tours in Korea (quite a few, actually), those who enjoyed it the most were the ones who picked up as much of the language and spent as much time in the local community as they could. I hope he makes the most of this experience.
I go to the thunderdome and it’s all crap about rum and beer. My 2c: National service is one of the most honourable things you can do. Sometimes nations are wrong. But they are your nation and they are responsible for all your freedoms. You might see that it’s crazy to be in Afghanistan and is totally oil-motivated, but is that so crazy? We need oil. These people who are so holier than thou are so within their domains that are provided by the nation. I am not saying it’s always right. What I am saying is that it’s always worthy to commit yourself to a cause greater than yourself that you believe in. I am English and TB is a war criminal, as is GWB, but so are so many. People seem to think that it’s always been this easy to use the retrospectoscope to decide whether people are right or wrong, but it’s a new phenomenon, born last century, which was the first time people got real news. People who sit in their ivory towers poohpoohing military action really ought to inform themselves. That said, they should be able to say whatever they like, as anyone is. But they should think twice. And anyone going to defend their country – well, it shouldn’t be necessary to call for applause. I am really not saying that objectors should not be heard – they should – but people in the Army or Navy (or Air Force) are doing it to defend their way of life.
And they are fully worthy.
fraedrill
Use
your
return
key.