They’re so nice. But they still have the same problems with sexual abuse.
Over the past month, a number of disturbing revelations have come to light within the Canadian literary community. I use the term “come to light” deliberately, because many of us were already fully aware of how dangerous it can be to be a woman in this particular culture.
At great risk to herself, Toronto poet Emma Healey penned a thoughtful, candid and scathing condemnation of the sexual and psychological abuse that exists in our own backyard. On the website TheHairpin.com, she detailed a relationship she had at 19 with an unnamed prominent Canadian writer and English professor. He was 34. The alleged ensuing dynamic was inappropriate at best, and entailed sexual assault at worst.
I think you’ll recognize this situation described by Healey:
Every time we treat issues of abuse as black-and-white – every time we ask a woman why she didn’t just leave the apartment or the relationship, why she didn’t just call the police, how she didn’t see it coming; every time we tell her not to feed the trolls or that she has no real proof or ask why she’d allow herself to be bullied by someone so insignificant in the first place – every time we do these things, no matter what our intentions, we are complicit in the systems that allow predatory individuals to thrive in small communities. Abusers whose power and influence seem relatively minor are often the most dangerous kind, since the people around them who can afford to ignore their behavior will do so until something drastic forces them to act, while those who have something to lose at their hands will continue to stay silent. A man who’s “no big deal” can still ruin your reputation. A man who’s “no threat” can still leave marks. A man who “doesn’t matter” can still set fire to your life and then walk away whistling.
If there’s anything I’ve learned in the past week, it’s the same thing I learn over and over again every single time I see women speaking out publicly against men who have harmed them. It is exhilarating and terrifying and heartrending to watch people tell their stories, to see the changes that can come from that telling. But victims of harassment, assault, rape and abuse deserve, absolutely and in every case, the dignity of being able to do whatever they want with their stories. Right now it feels as though we rely on them to pursue change by putting themselves and their experiences at the mercy of Twitter, Facebook, Gawker, Salon – of legions of strangers who all know they know better.
We consistently fail young women—all women—by tacitly relying on them to learn from each other, or from their experiences, which of the people in their communities they can and cannot trust. We ask them to police their own peers, but quietly, through back channels, without disturbing the important people while they’re talking. We wait for the victims of abuse to be the ones to take power away from their abusers, instead of working actively to ensure that these motherfuckers never get that far in the first place.
I remember when I first learned that women in my communities were having these quiet conversations with each other about who was a lech, who liked to get young women drunk, who cruised our conferences looking for people to prey upon, and I was horrified — I had no idea. One of the advantages of privilege is that I can be completely oblivious and ignore the problem. And then I was horrified even more as I learned that some people don’t react by getting angry with the men who abuse our groups, but rather with the women who dare to speak out loud what was previously only whispered.
It’s got to change. Everywhere. Including Canada.
If someone gets shot in the face, we don’t ask why they didn’t look the other way or jump out of line of sight. If someone gets struck by a car, we don’t ask why they were crossing the street. If someone has their wallet stolen, we don’t ask why they were carrying around money and credit cards. So why do we ask women who are abused why they were present for the abuse? Why is it the moment a listener feels uncomfortable they attack the person they consider the easiest target to make the discomfort go away and be easily explained behind a curtain of ignorance?
re @1:
We do it to blame without blaming, or shifting the blame away from the offender (to the victim). The paradox of: recognizing that the rapist is responsible but focusing instead on the _cause_ of his action; the victim caused the attack by being too vulnerable. It seems easier to make women hide their “charms”, rather than teach those “boys” to behave themselves and keep themselves “under control”. Blaming the victim is the easy comments of all those witnesses to express. Just ask them why they blame the victim and absolve the perpetrator, they’ll turn away, very silent. They’ll think you are blaming *them* for the attack. I doubt this is any kind of valid response but I want to go all “Webb”; “just the facts ma’am, just the facts (no interpretations please).”
[okay, my thoughts are running away… better end … this … comment … right… now…
Yes, it’s in Canada too and in Europe and everywhere else. It’s just that the fight against it is more visible in some places than in others. It’s in every culture and in every religion and in every civilization in every place in time. Plus the same thing happens in most other social species, especially pack animals such as ourselves. But if I suggest that there may be natural evolved structures in our brains that cause it, the Pinker Haters come out of the woodwork.
The next time you pick up your kid from daycare ask the people there if they teach the toddlers to bite the other kids or if they teach them to throw things at each other. They’ll look at you like What!? Those things happen spontaneously, we spend a lot of our time getting kids to not do those things. Now imagine a world where they don’t stop kids from doing those things. It’s the difference between Vikings and Scandinavians, genetically they’re the same thing, it’s just that someone figured out that the Viking culture is just the progress of lemmings and we’re better off if we aren’t shits to each other.
The Patriarchy doesn’t cause misogyny, it’s the other way around.
ambrosethompson wrote:
Well… Dick Cheney once shot someone in the face and got a public apology from the victim. It actually seems pretty typical that the victim gets blamed, regardless of crime, when someone from a higher socio-political class commits an offence against someone of a lower socio-political class. You can see this in the Trayvon Martin incident, too.
@1, ambrosethompson – Unfortunately, I think we are starting to see a wider spectrum of victim-blaming in the States, with various factions spouting everything from “If he/she had had a gun, they could’ve defended themselves” to “If he hadn’t disrespected that cop, he wouldn’t have been shot.”
As far as woman-blaming is concerned, there’s certainly a long tradition of using rape-fears to control women: “Stay at home, dress modestly, if you have to leave your home do it under the protection of your husband or other responsible male, etc.” Of course, rapists don’t always select victims who “don’t follow the rules”; in fact, sometimes a victim who has believed in the protection of the rules may be a rapist’s first choice, because the rapist relies on the cultural truthiness that “good girls don’t get raped, so if you report me raping you, everyone will know you weren’t REALLY a good girl.” Add in other poisonous ideas about how men can be provoked by a flash of ankle or a little too much cleavage, and you have the perfect setup for those who want to sexually assault or harass as often as they wish.
Cheney was known to have and to be using torture chambers. Of course he got an apology.
(That’s only a half-snark: Privilege(/”class”)/power is an important element in this cycle of victim-blaming, but another element is a habit of evil.)
kevinalexander
Which other social species has older males getting younger females drunk in order to fuck them?
I work at a hospital and I am always shocked by the number of relationships there are between between older doctors and much younger nurses and nursing students, what adds another level of bad to the situation is when the spouse of the doctor finds out.
This happened to me. I was 19. He was 39, and a professor at my university. He stole 3 years of my life and had me groomed to the point that I thought I was going to leave the country and elope with him. Every night, he’d make me get drunk. He’d hold my nose and yank my head back by the hair and force me to drink. Nothing that happened after that could be called consensual. He isolated me from all my friends and made me move in with him. He walked me to all my classes to make sure I never talked to boys my own age. And yet it’s amazing how no one, even as it was happening, wanted to hold him responsible or to help me. These people don’t know that I was overprotected by very religious parents in high school and wasn’t allowed near boys. This was my first “boyfriend.” No one warned me that I needed to avoid this guy; no one told me I didn’t deserve to be treated this way. Women, especially, loved to tell me that I was a whore for stealing one of the eligible older men from them. Silently, in my mind, I would plead with them to help me since they were older and wiser. But in the end, I had to just find the strength to run away. I stopped telling people about this because I get as far as mentioning the age difference and they start laughing and making jokes about “daddy issues.”
Wow. That’s not at all a claim that needs supporting. Every culture in every place and time? What are you, one of those hacks that puts out research press releases for universities? “I don’t understand all these cautious hypotheses and tentative conclusions, so I’ll just write ‘cure for cancer’ in the headline and call it a day.”
The important thing is that you’ve found a way to insulate yourself from criticism for the excruciatingly stupid things you you say.
Pinker-hater! Witch-hunter!
Wow, jasmine624, that sounds horrible. I’m glad you were able to leave, and I’m sorry for how you were treated by those who should have helped you.
Lack of experience with relationships and the inability to discern healthy behaviours from abusive ones is one reason, I suspect, predators take advantage of age differences.
jasmine624, I’m really sorry you went through that. I don’t think it’s “daddy issues” at all – I think it was plain ordinary inexperience. Not that “daddy issues” would make it remotely OK anyhow.
jasmine624,
I’m so sorry that was done to you, and I’m glad you managed to get away.
jasmine624,
How incredibly awful. I’m glad you survived. It sounds like this professor had a well rehearsed methodology, which only makes it more terrible.
Thank you everyone. I’ve come to terms with everything that happened to me– it’s been six years now– but it makes me FURIOUS every time I hear about another girl with an experience like this. It’s happening every day all over the world. It’s never taken seriously, and she’s always treated like she’s the only one to blame. And there’s always more to the story than people are willing to admit to themselves. They have a narrative in their heads about some young slut thinking it’d be fun to experiment with an older man, and they’re unable even to consider that something else might be going on.
Jasmine624 @ 9:
What a terrifying experience you had, I am so sorry that happened to you. I’m sorrier that the people surrounding you were such abysmal beings, and that you could not find help. I know that such events scar for life, I hope you are in a better place now.
Chigau:
Crickets! It has to be crickets, right?
Uh… “pack animals such as ourselves”?
Oh also. I’ve been lurking for a few years and I knew this was the only space where I’d feel safe sharing that story. You guys are freaking awesome, and I love you. You too PZ.
jasmine 624 @9:
What you went through is no laughing matter. It was incredibly serious and it’s a damn shame people treated you like that. I’m sorry you were treated so shitty.
Thanks Tony. It’s just another form of victim blaming. What better way to shame a girl into shutting up than to imply she has some unconscious incestuous urges?
@jasmine624: You feel safe to share here not only because of this environment because you are bravely facing abuse that has laid very heavy on you. I feel a rage inside too that older males feel free to harm young people in this way. I have a daughter soon off to film school and I have been concerned for her well-being. You too are freakin’ awesome to share this way, to speak up and out. We in Canada are not at all free of the abuse; it is far too common but you, Emma Healey et al saying something makes a difference to me and to my daughter and many many others.
jasmine624 I am so sorry that abuser targeted you – and that you were failed by those who should have helped and protected you. I am glad you were able to escape, and I very much admire your strength and courage in getting away from him.
Jasmine624 @ 22:
I was in a relationship with a 36 year old when I was 17. What broke me out of that highly imbalanced relationship was the approval bestowed on 36 year old by the family member who had raped me for years as a child. You can be sure I didn’t talk about that with anyone.
@kevinalexander
Ugh. Sexual and psychological abuse of women by men is caused by natural structures in our brains? Your proof/excuse is it happens “everywhere”?
One can argue religious and supernatural beliefs are natural, because they happen practically everywhere.
I’m so sorry Jasmine, thank you for sharing your experience. It’s important to bring these things to light, in spite of the people who try to rationalize the abuse as “natural” or the fault of the abused and not the abuser.
Jasmine624
Just dropping through the thread to add to the messages of support. That’s an apalling but all too common story.
Iyeska @ 25: I’m so, so sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing that with me. The moment when I snapped out of it was similar, just in reverse. I decided to confide in my then- 42-year-old about my own childhood sexual abuse… and he didn’t think anything was wrong with it. His words were, “Maybe you were a little young, but if you let a girl decide for herself when she’s ready, then it’ll never happen.” That was the most revolting, despicable thing I had ever heard. Suddenly, I could see all the ways the past three years would’ve been different “if he let me decide for myself.” I wouldn’t be there anymore. So I got the hell out.
Jasmine624:
Jesus Christ. People can be so damn ugly, and say the most loathsome things. Those of us who have been victimized may be legion, but we’re the too silent legion – all too often, we learn a harsh lesson when we try to talk. In this case, I’m really glad it resulted in you getting the hell out. Still, no one needs to hear such brutal, ugly shit from anyone. Ever.
, “Maybe you were a little young, but if you let a girl decide for herself when she’s ready, then it’ll never happen.”
The horrors lurking just behind this statment…
I think when you’re in the privileged set its easy to not see these problems. They don’t affect you, and you have no experience of them. Because you don’t see them, you can sometimes devalue them.
I was in Egypt on a tour. The girls on the tour had been complaining about sexual harassment from Egyptian men. I went shopping with a few of them, ever vigilant for sexual harassment. Ready to step in, and protect them.
I didn’t see a damn thing. Even when it happened right in front of me. It wasn’t until one of the girls pointed out that a shop keeper was groping her as he was “helping” her look at clothes, did I realised how insidious it is.
Chigau @ 30, that’s why I hear his voice any time I hear about any case of sexual violence. I don’t know how you fight a mindset like that.
5% of European women has been raped:
http://nos.nl/op3/artikel/619171-1-op-de-20-europese-vrouwen-ooit-verkracht.html
and 50% has suffered from sexual abuse.
33% has been victim of psychological and/or physical violence. My native country, The Netherlands, scores 50%. The difference might be explained by relatively more Dutch women reporting at a police station.
mnb0 @ 33:
Nope, that’s not it. If there is no good infrastructure in place, where rape and sexual assault aren’t taken seriously, and the conviction rate is next to none, reporting doesn’t do a damn bit of good. A whole lot of people would be happy to confirm that, too. So, apparently, there is a better infrastructure in place in the Netherlands, but I wouldn’t be complacent about it, if I were you.
I’m so sorry, jasmine624, and I’m glad you got out of it. You should not have been used like that, or ignored by other people that way.
Jasmine624 – Like so many others here, I am sorry you went through that, and I’m glad you escaped. As a college professor, I know damned well that it happens, usually with older male professors and female students. For some reason, that kind of predatory behavior is not as rare as it should be, and tends to be hushed up. But I’d hope with all my might that any student at my college (which is admittedly small) who found herself–or himself–caught up in something like that would come to me, or go to the vp of student affairs or a faculty member they trusted. We’d certainly do what we can to help. Maybe to some that sounds naive, but I sincerely mean it. A campus should not be a hunting ground.
@Jasmine624, @Iyeska
I am happy to hear that you have escaped those relationships, albeit saddened that they happened to you.
Best wishes.
If you did suggest such a thing, long before the anti-Pinkerites made it out of the woodwork, you’d be laughed off the thread by the evolutionary biologists and neuroanatomists for such an epic failure in understanding how the evolution of brain structures correlate, or not, to complex behaviours.
I read the comments on Emma Healey’s article. Commenters were blaming her, insisting the relationship was consensual, and complaining she was speaking out.
Exactly what she suggested makes it so difficult to stop this predatory behaviour.
WhiteHatLurker @ 37:
Thank you. My relationship was not even close the abusiveness which marks that of Jasmine624’s. It took me a long time, though, to figure out that someone who was 19 years older than me, and had known me since I was 14, was doing something very wrong in the first place.
Jasmine624 @9, I am so, so sorry he did that to you. That’s horrific. I’m so glad you got away.
consciousness razor @19
LOL I had the same thought. But it’s true!
Iyeska @25
Great Rat, I can’t even … I’m so glad you, too, got away.
Iyeska @25
“I was in a relationship with a 36 year old when I was 17. What broke me out of that highly imbalanced relationship was the approval bestowed on 36 year old by the family member who had raped me for years as a child. You can be sure I didn’t talk about that with anyone.”
There are so many who have been hurt and I feel so grateful for your honesty in sharing this here…. You are a very strong person, and I think your ability to share your harm has long-reaching very positive outcomes in places like this…. so many suffer on their own and do not find their way to free expression as you have here. Abusers are traps that we fall into and saying it out loud is very very powerful medicine, for you and for others who read your words. Thank-you for sharing here.
jasmine624 #9
What a horrible experience. I’m glad you found your way out.
I’m the father of a 7 year old girl. Dating and such are still a ways away, but I think that it’s never too soon to be thinking about such things.
It feels right, it feels natural for me to want to stand before her and shelter her from all the things. But if I manage to do that how will she learn to stand on her own? How will she know what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour if we don’t talk about love, romance, sex and dating? And if she’s never given the chance to experience anything, how will she handle it all when I and Ms. Fishy are no longer there to provide advice and support?
Thank you for this reminder that raising a child is not synonymous with isolating them from the world. If no other good comes from your awful experience, know that in a small way it helped me be a better father.
Iyeska, flos mali wrote:
Wow. Also incredibly awful, and I’m glad you made it out of that. I suppose I shouldn’t be shocked that this is as common as it is, but I still am.
idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg
dhall, that’s good to hear. But maybe (not aiming this at you personally, dhall, btw, it’s just that your comment brought it to mind) it would be better to turn things like this the right way round (like the “don’t be that guy” campaign); some kind of approach to faculty – along the lines of the health and safety protocols that (I presume) they legally must be provided with and legally must learn – “reminding” them that of course any and all sexual relationships with students are not on (at least as long as they are students at that institution)? And providing explicit guidelines for behaviour? Seeing as it’s faculty and not students who have to change their behaviour. “After all, dear faculty, of course being civilised chaps you already know this – and it’s for your own protection as much as for that of our student body, to whom we stand in loco parentis … ” (yeah, no, I know perfectly well that uni faculty are not actually in loco parentis to their students but it might be a salutary reminder anyway).
When I was at uni I got one somewhat inebriated lateish-night phonecall from my recently-single professor inviting me round. I told him I was otherwise engaged (I had zero intention of going across town late at night to spend time on my own with someone who – however genuinely friendly to his students as a whole – was in no way a peer or an actual ordinary friend). I never heard of him trying it on with anyone else (of course he might have, but I think if he had the information would have started going around) and some time later he got married again (to a successful academic, younger than him but much nearer his age than the students). I never thought about it in these terms, but thinking back on it now I suppose it’s not inconceivable that in addition to extricating myself I might have done him a bloody massive favour that night.
chigau@7
Every single one that manufactures and distributes alcohol.
There are social species with sexual dimorphism where the larger males practice the droite de seignieure and no one complains.
Anthony K@10
Fair cop, I overgeneralized but you could easily falsify it by naming one exception that isn’t a modern western literate society with a functioning feminist movement. If I make the claim that most cars have four wheels it isn’t falsifying the statement by pointing out that some have three.
Amphiox @38
You are right, I phrased that badly. Let me point out that the blood pressure rise and angry reaction that most people get when seeing or contemplating a woman in a sexual situation is not a complex behaviour although it can lead to one.
Aaand what other species does that?
What the hell is the purpose of that comment? Human women should shut up and take it? Rape is peachy because it’s Nature?
WTF?
You made the generalization. Support it with evidence, or withdraw it.
WTF seconded.
He gets double points for two layers of misogyny and heteronormativity, since it sounds like these “most people” are supposed to be “most heterosexual men”.
kevinalexander @48:
So what you meant to say instead of this:
was this:
It’s in every modern western literate society with a functioning feminist movement?
(just to make sure, “it” is the fight against sexual abuse and the culture of acceptance, no?)
Even accounting for your claim that you overgeneralized, how are those two statements remotely the same thing?
kevinalexander @48:
did you mean “…in a sexual ASSAULT situation…”?
Tony! @53, 54
Kevinalexander does seem to be having some problems expressing himself! Looking at #3, I think the “it” is not the fight arainst sexual abuse, but the sexual abuse itself – although that does make #48 rather hard to understand. I think your suggestion @54 is probably right.
Anyone under the impression that Canadians, because of our vaunted niceness, can’t be just as vile as anyone from anywhere, should take a look at these topics (no links cause HTML on a phone is a major pain):
Residential schools;
Africville;
Somalia and the Airborne Regiment;
Clifford Olson and Robert Pickton;
Dudley George;
the Orange Lodge in Ontario;
KKK parade in Hamilton;
Alberta’s involuntary sterilisation program;
the ‘Head Tax;
Japanese internment;
the Oka standoff;
Winnipeg police and murdering First Nations men;
Steven Truscott and a host of other innocents wrongly imprisoned.
And that’s just off my own memory, I’m quite sure other Canadians could add a number more without straining too hard, as well.
Cait
Rehtaeh Parsons comes to mind, too, as something more recent (in case anyone thinks Canadians have improved over the years).
+++
Jasmine624 (and Iyeska!)
Thank you for sharing your story(-ies) – I am so terribly sorry you had to go through that, without the surrounding support that you needed. I wish you all the best (and all the support) going forward. ♥
theoreticalgrrl@26
Look up the naturalism fallacy. I regret that I didn’t include a preamble to my post, I should have anticipated that someone would take my comment as endorsing sexism.
Pointing out that something is natural is not saying that it is right. Sexism is deeply morally wrong. I understand that. That’s why I am a feminist.
I come to this blog for an education and appreciate the discussions about this subject. I only mentioned the natural aspect of it because no one else has, perhaps because they are afraid of getting what I have because of it. I mostly lurk and have learned a lot but from time to time I can’t help the feeling that I’m watching a group of highly intelligent, educated people going round and round the proverbial lamppost looking for their keys. However bright the light of your learning is, you often won’t find what you’re looking for there. Sometimes you have to go into the darkness of human nature.
We don’t have an effective answer for Goddidit because our responses to it are too complex for the average person to understand. Saying ‘Science is smarter than you are’ is offensive to the person you are saying it to and hardly likely to persuade.
Try admitting that there is evil in our nature; it’s something Christians understand so you can catch their attention with that and then go from there to show a more natural explanation then maybe be able to get a discussion going as to how to fix it.
Tony@54
NOOOO! That’s not what I’m saying. As Nick points out, I am having a great deal of trouble expressing myself.
AFAICT there seem to be two distinct kinds of sexual passion. One that makes us want to have sex and another that makes us want to stop others, especially women, from getting any. It makes sense from an evolutionary angle. Both kinds get the heart pumping; it’s only the second kind that has the angry added to it. Both kinds can exist in the same person at the same time; just look at misogynist porn*
.
*I don’t mean literally look at it, it’s pretty disgusting though it’s very popular which kind of makes my point.
Tony@53
No. I’m trying to say that the culture of acceptance that we are fighting against is natural. It’s the natural aspect of it that makes it so hard for us to fight against.
Ugh. I f*ked up and left out a crucial word. I meant to say ‘I overgeneralized (in saying that every society is sexist and that implies naturalism) but you could easily falsify it(that statement) by naming one exception(al society) that isn’t in a modern western literate society with a functioning feminist movement’
In other words; feminism fights sexism; without it the default situation is universal sexism which implies that it is natural.
.
Right now I’m reading Pinker’s book on writing clearly. I hope it does some good but so far the results aren’t encouraging.
Two of the most common myths about Canadians is that we’re always polite, and that we quickly own up to our mistakes. Sadly, neither is true.
kevinalexander:
Yes, and you might consider stopping. You’ve dug quite a hole, and Pinker isn’t going to help you out, either.
OK. For now anyway. My arms are getting tired from all the digging.
Incorrect. You could always try bearing in mind that over half the human beings on the planet do not react like this. Het women plus gay men (whether cis or trans in either case) plus asexual people plus = more than half the population. And what do you know, we’re actually people. Who would have thought.
I thought, eh, they were yer Attack Moose, eh, is capable of, eh, well, something, eh, and that you can, eh, stop saying, eh, “eh”, eh.
@kevinalexander,
I’m not sure what point you were trying to make by saying psychological and sexual abuse of women is ‘natural.’
I wouldn’t barge in to a talk about child abuse and tell people it’s natural. Which, using your definition, it is. Child abuse happens frequently, it happens in the animal kingdom.
Most people interpret the word natural to mean normal and healthy and good.
You totally remove the agency of the men who are abusive, as if their behavior is out of their control. Please tell me who would say the natural aspect of child abuse is what makes it hard for “us” to fight against?
Jasmine624:
That’s really shitty. You have my sympathy and, in some ways, my understanding. Be safe.
Different phrasing, but sounds like the same attitude my rapist had. I am so sorry you went through any of this.
I am convinced that the only actual sin that exists in the world is treating people as if they are objects, as if they are not human, as if they are things for the pleasure of a certain group of people.
==
@kevinalexander:
When I read someone in a comment thread refer to misogyny, or rape, or abuse, or domination of women and/or children as ‘natural’, a little part of my mind (a part of my mind that was trained this way by an abusive manipulative rapist) wonders why this person seems invested in misogyny, rape, abuse and domination as being natural. And it worries me.
…people mutter “such as?” and “citation needed” and “not THIS shit again”?
opposablethumbs wrote:
Not to mention a not insignificant portion of het men. Personally, I see little reason to get angry about who someone else is fucking unless they’re my current partner, and even then, my anger is mostly due to the violation of trust rather than the sex. If they’re not my partner, then I simply couldn’t care less (although I know a lot of men seem to despite the fact most women will have sex during their life, and the vast majority of it won’t be with these particular men).
Ogvorbis:
Yeah, me too. I loathe the “hey, rape is natural!” dudes, and I can’t say I have much respect for Pinker exhorting people to believe such damaging drivel either.
kevinalexander@59, 60,
Once again, WTF? That’s not a passion I recognise in myself. I think you’ve mistaken a reaction of your own for a human universal. (Note to opposeablethumbs@64: even w.r.t. het men, kevinalexander is just wrong; what he describes is puritanism, and what proportion of people are puritanical is obviously highly variable across cultures.)
In one sense, everything we do is “natural”, because as best we can tell, there’s no supernatural. In another, almost nothing we do is natural, as in, unmediated by culture. Perhaps reflexes are, but precious little else. Whether there are any societies where there is absolutely no “culture of acceptance” I don’t know – and nor do you, I’m pretty sure – but there are vast differences in concepts of gender and the status of women across cultures, and that includes non-industrial and non-literate cultures. So saying the “culture of acceptance” is “natural” is either empty of content, or almost certainly false.
Seriously, I’d advise putting down the Pinker. It isn’t going to help, because Pinker is full of shit.
Because I want understand why it happens. The religious apologetics doesn’t explain it and neither do the popular explanations. Both are just waving incense at the problem and neither is capable of overcoming it because they don’t get why it happens.
Am I describing puritanism? YES! There are religious explanations and there are non religious explanations but again the behaviour is persistent because the current explanations are ‘god says so’ and ‘puritanism’ Neither is helpful. Both are the equivalent of saying ‘because reasons’. Still not an answer, still just begging ‘Why god?’ and ‘Why puritanism?’
I am encouraged by the fact that so far I still have not gotten a coherent counter argument. All I get are personal attacks on me and Pinker.
.
One more time and I promise to go away.
-The human brain is a material thing made by evolution.
-The mind is what the brain does.
-The mind spontaneously thinks specific shitty things and does it consistently across the globe, across different religions and non religions , across different cultures and throughout time.
Where’s the weak link in that chain? I’m not JAQing off. I want to know the answer but I realize I won’t get it here.
Bye.
Where’s the weak link in that chain?
There are three:
Wrong. It is a material thing that arises through a developmental process which necessarily involves interaction between the individual, and the physical and social environment. The genome, which is shaped by evolution, contains far too little information to specfiy the neural connections in the brain.
Wrong. The brain doesn’t do anything because it’s not an agent. “The mind” is a reification of mental processes, which are dependent upon, but by no means wholly contained within, the brain.
Highly dubious. You have not specified what these “specific shitty things” are, nor shown that they occur consistently. Indeed, we know that most individual and cross-cultural variation in just about any human activity are enormous.
“most individual and cross-cultural” in the last paragraph of 73 should be “both individual and cross-cultural”
And this is a blatant falsehood.
ck and Nick, yes, absolutely, and I’m sorry I said-and-implied what I did – my comment was off, and I definitely should have included a lot of het men as well in the category of people who do not react like [that description]!
opposeablethumbs@76,
Thanks!
Nick:
Seconded. Pinker is more than a bit of an idiot.
I’m still wondering (re kevinalexander @47) what these other social species are that make and distribute alcohol for the males to get the young females drunk. Where are the orcas running breweries? Where are the zebras serving behind the bar? Where are the bees’ nightclubs?
My brother gave me a book by Pinsker for Christmas (I already had the feeling that my brother was in thrall to Fox News.)
Not everything Mr. Pinsker says is BS. (If he says the sun rises in the East, he’s probably right.) From what I could see, the problem with Mr. Pinsker is that he thinks that his thinking/saying something is true is compelling proof that it’s true. This includes areas where he is blatantly less knowledgeable than the people he disagrees with.
I’ve got a PhD in math, but if I say something about biology and PZ Myers says it’s bogus, you’d do well to believe him and not me.
How about some reading about Pinker:
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2012/08/21/well-i-guess-im-not-a-feminist-then/
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2013/07/28/tackling-pinkers-defense-of-evolutionary-psychology/comment-page-1/#comments
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2013/08/08/repudiating-scientism-rather-than-surrendering-to-it/
kevinalexander
This looks to be yet another version of men can’t control themselves in the presence of women and will readily become abusers and/or rapists unless someone steps in and stops them. That’s a terrible thing to say.
…
As for what the mind / brain might do with or without conscious intention – I strongly suggest reading a few books about brain plasticity. I’ve not seen anything specifically about socially acquired attitudes to sex and sexuality. However, there is quite a bit of material telling us that brain plasticity is not our friend. If someone’s grown up learning, practising and reinforcing certain ideas, behaviours and attitudes, they need to do a lot of conscious, intentional unlearning the bad and relearning and reinforcing their newly preferred, different habits and attitudes.
kevinalexander @60:
The culture of acceptance is natural? Here I thought the culture of acceptance was something learned that can be unlearned (y’know, as a result of the culture we live in…), or never taught in the first place.
@72:
Huh? You want to understand why what happens? Did you really read what Ogvorbis wrote? Here:
He’s saying that it worries him when someone (YOU in this case) enters a thread and argues that rape, misogyny, abuse, or domination of women & children is natural. This is what you’ve done. That bothers him. It bothers me too, bc you’re asserting something with no proof. That’s why your response to him makes no sense to us.
You’re claiming that you want to know why rape/sexual assault/abuse happen, but you’re discussing these things as if they’re natural, or intrinsic to humans and you’ve not proven that.
Since we’re talking about sexual assault and rape in this thread, I’ll use those as examples of ‘shitty things’. A respect for bodily autonomy is not instilled across our culture. Women are devalued across our culture. That leads to a culture of entitlement where rape and sexual assault are prevalent. If we can change the culture, by instilling–from a young age, and consistently over time–a respect for the boundaries and bodily autonomy of others, as well as valuing the lives of others, we can change the culture. These are learned behaviors, not primal unchangeable forces of human nature.
I don’t think you’ve put forth the coherent argument you think you have. What I’ve gotten from you is that the capacity for sexual assault and rape are intrinsic to humans and it’s super duper hard to change that.
opposablethumbs wrote:
No worries. I certainly isn’t you that owes an apology here, and I wasn’t looking for one, or even really trying to point out error. I just wanted to repeat and expand on what you said. The person who should be apologising is the one who has been insisting that men are mindless automatons who are completely unable to control themselves because nature!
kevinalexander,
Not…really? Most of us, including straight men, are actually pretty cool with the idea that other people get to have sex. Heck, a lot of the time we celebrate other people getting to have sex. Or assist them. Consider pornography, romantic movies and fiction, group dates, wingmanning, orgies, and weddings. (Possibly not at the same time.)
Also…not really? Humans aren’t like elephant seals or something, where the beachmaster tries to beat down any other male approaching his harem of females. We’ve evolved in societies with multiple sexually active adults of each gender.
Anton @85
I completely agree with what you’re saying. Just as genetic variation produces a range of physical characteristics it produces a range of psychological ones. Also, I’m no determinist. Humans have the ability to overcome our natures; that’s the whole point to my original post.
The examples you give are all of those of us who are able to enhance the first kind of passion while we suppress the second. There’s different kinds of pornography. The kind that I like has happy smiling women enjoying the power they deserve. Unfortunately there’s also a very popular kind which features women being abused. When someone tries to make a distinction between erotica and porn I think that that’s the difference they mean. The second kind of porn caters to (usually) men who are in the thralls of both kinds of sexual passion.
When you say “across different cultures”, which cultures are you talking about exactly?
Almost all of the experience of a modern westerner with cultural attitudes that originated in the middle east at most 10,000 years ago. That’s less than 5% of the time that anatomically modern human beings have existed on earth. That length of time also includes the creation of writing so there’s not much material available on cultures predating that.
In fact, since all literate societies are the result of some form of colonialism or other from either the literate middle eastern societies or the literate ancient Chinese societies or their cultural heirs, almost all the information we have on different cultures is from an extremely constrained family tree of cultures. There were other cultures and societies that weren’t literate outside the purview of these colonialist, literate cultures but we don’t know anything about them because they’ve been lost in the churn of time. Taleb calls what you’re doing “the graveyard of missing evidence” or something similar. We can fruitfully compare this sort of reasoning with, say, survivors of shipwreck crediting God for their deliverance (we never hear the non-survivors mentioning that God has nothing to do with it) or with the RAF policy of armoring fighter planes according to where the most damaged returning planes were most shot up (ignoring that the planes that made it back made it back and it was the planes that were shot down that should be the basis for deciding where to armor future fighter planes).
We can talk about the reasons why the literate cultures that now dominate the globe came to do so, and the fact that they are invariably patriarchal almost certainly is a big part of the explanation. Polygamous societies can produce more children faster, and the tendency for men to be larger and to build muscle more easily lends itself to castes and classes of professional soldiers. Patriarchy (as a cultural rather than genetic legacy) lent itself well to colonialism and martial dominance. But none of this says anything about genetic predispositions to patriarchy. It only says that patriarchy leads to ubiquity.
You’re starting with the assumption that ubiquity (at this particular point in history) implies genetic predisposition, but you’re completely neglecting plausible non-genetic explanations for why patriarchy would be ubiquitous. If patriarchal societies have non-genetic advantages over non-patriarchal societies that lead them to dominate and force their cultural values on non-patriarchal peoples, then there could very well be a genetic predisposition towards matriarchy that was simply overcome by an anomalous but fruitful patriarchal cultural strategy.
You want examples. OK. Wikipedia ain’t perfect but it’s usually a top google result and a good place to begin your research.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/05/where-women-rule-the-world-matriarchal-communities-from-albania-to-china-3525234/
http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule
All I did was type “matri” into google. The first suggestion was “matrix” (of course); the second was “matriarchal societies in the world”. That’s right, all you had to do to find some pretty good material challenging your prejudices was type “matri” into google. Why didn’t you bother to do even that much?
For the record, a man can be a sexual dominant (and a woman can be sexually submissive) without being sexist or misogynist. In fact, in bdsm there is a focus on safe, sane, consensual play that leads to much more mature, healthy conversations about what both partners are looking for and what their limits are. You can’t judge a person’s attitudes towards women by what kind of porn they enjoy. Greta Christina wrote a particularly good piece on this (though I’m having trouble finding a link, any help?).
FO @72:
And this is exactly the reason that making the claim that rape, or subjugation of women, or abuse, or violence, or racism, or misogyny is natural is a problem. Claiming that it is natural means we do not have to understand, we do not have to question, we do not have to do anything other than let nature take its course. Actually looking for answers, not just saying, “Well, that’s the way it is,” does actually lead to solving problems.
My rapist told me that there were two kinds of people on earth — men and children/girls — and he showed me why I wanted to be a man. He told us that this is natural, this is what gods intended, this is what is supposed to happen. No research necessary. Don’t question authority. It is natural so do it or you will be treated like a girl for your entire life.
So your comment about how natural misogyny is hit me hard in two ways. First, that claiming it is human nature doesn’t actually answer anything, second, because of my history. And, third, it worries me, because when I hear someone tell me that it is god’s will, or natural, that women be subordinate to men, I start to wonder, “Why is it important for this person to think this is part of the natural order? Are they seeking to justify their behaviour? Not saying that this is what is actually happening with you, just why it disturbs me.
I don’t know if anyone is still following this thread but this is me come back to apologize.
Last week someone shat in my cornflakes and, feeling confrontational, I decided to take a poke. Depending on your PH level what I said pissed you off a little or a lot which is fun but while doing that I thoughtlessly hurt some others and that is what I’m apologizing for.
Ogvorbis@89
You are the one I’m apologizing to. I should have anticipated your reaction and included a trigger warning. I was abused for years as a child, though not sexually, so I well know the soul shredding terror of living every moment not knowing when some physically larger thing would come to hurt me. I say thing because my redemption came from seeing the natural, subhuman part of human nature. By reducing it to mindless reality I was finally able to expunge the last vestige of animism in me and the nightmares stopped. Not just the nightmares of the abuse but nightmares of any kind.
I think of humanity as only a potential. Having a human brain gives you the ability to examine your natural tendencies and then choosing not to use some of them. That’s what the whole civilizing project is about.
daniellavine@
Of course I searched it. I’ve been searching it for years. It’s how I got rid of my prejudices. The Patriarchy started in the middle east and then the western colonialists spread it around the world changing almost nothing about the local cultures but that one thing. Seriously? OK, Find some colonial journal or some missionary record where they mention some matriarchal society. I’ve been looking for some time with no result, maybe you can help me. As far as I can see culture is the expression of nature it’s not its cause.
Yes, but I would include any kind of consensual acts in the first kind of sexual passion.
As a not quite aside, it’s moose hunting season where I live. Once a year for a few weeks the bulls go nuts. As in sexually crazy. The hormones kick in and they rush around attacking other bulls and pretty much anything else that moves that isn’t a cow. They do it for the possession of the cows who don’t argue, not that they would have any choice against a creature much larger than themselves, but also they’re going crazy from hormones too. It’s how genes spread.
Lucky for the moose it only happens once a year. Now imagine a species that was sexually active all the time. Wouldn’t you expect them to be crazy all the time?