Your child should not be your proxy victim » « God’s own pea soup

What are you going to celebrate tomorrow?

Officially, it’s Columbus Day tomorrow, everywhere except the two big cities I most strongly identify with: Seattle, near where I grew up, and Minneapolis. Both are politically progressive, probably because of my influence (it couldn’t possibly be that my background influenced me), and both have renamed Columbus Day to Indigenous People’s Day.

Next Monday, federal employees and some lucky others will celebrate Columbus Day with a three-day weekend. But in Seattle and Minneapolis, Monday’s holiday will be honoring the people on the other side of the New World discovery story.

As the Associated Press reports, the reinvented holiday—dubbed Indigenous People’s Day—"celebrates the contributions and culture of Native Americans and the indigenous community" as well as "the rich history of people who have inhabited the area."

Seattle unanimously voted in favor of the change yesterday, but Minneapolis led the charge back in April. (Reuters adds, however, that Hawaii, Oregon and Alaska don’t even recognize Columbus Day.) According to Time, those in favor of the switch in Minneapolis felt that it would paint a "’more accurate historical record’ of Columbus’s 1492 discovery." According to one activist quoted in Al Jazeera, it’s a welcome departure from the long-standing celebrations of a "pirate."

It’s not a statewide change, so officially it’s still going to be European Pirate Day here in outstate Minnesota, but I shall keep Indigenous People’s Day in my heart.

Your child should not be your proxy victim » « God’s own pea soup

Comments

  3. Callinectes says

    You can’t ironically market it as “European Pirate Day”, because that sounds even more appealing.

  4. Scientismist says

    For me, October 12 has always brought back memories of that day in 1962 when I was in college in Portland, Oregon. Freda, the biggest extratropical cyclone of the century turned the steps on the path to the dorms into a waterfall, and later that night the wind brought a tree into my neighbor’s dorm room. Much more memorable to me than the old “sailed the ocean blue” story.

  6. says

    A day of contemplation, estimation…
    of the amount of saturated fats consumed
    and salt in the blood.
    All the while remembering the blood
    shed by those who lost it to the guns
    and the ruthless great white father’s men.
    One last day to grill the cattle, for the lucky,
    Now let us hunt for the turkey.
    Oh Canada, USA waits it’s turn.

  10. chezjake says

    For my family, it was always celebrated as Mountain Day — the last outdoor extended family get together of the year. We’d have hiking, swimming, maybe some fishing followed by a huge multi-course picnic/barbecue, usually in a state park in the Poconos.

  11. Becca Stareyes says

    First Exam Day. My calculus-based mechanics classes get to take a test; the general physics class gets theirs tomorrow.

    Not much of a celebration. They get an exam, and I get to write and grade the exam. But it is the first exam I’ve had to write, and the first one where I have final say on grades*, so it’s a milestone.

    * I’ve graded plenty of exams as a TA, but students could appeal to the professor.

  12. chris61 says

    I celebrate colorful birds. Many years ago a friend from Russia asked me about a local Columbus Day parade but what I heard was “Columbus parrot”. So that’s what I celebrate.

  13. says

    having lived in seattle pretty much all my life i can note this is not the only way some of our “progressive” policies have slapped the public in the face. its not that i’m against a holiday celebrating native america heritage, i just think dissing the italian heritage of the emerald city is stoopid.

  14. David Utidjian says

    Oenotrian @ 8: I was going to say the same thing. It is so marked on ALL the parking meters in Berkeley CA. Christmas is still Christmas though.

  15. says

    @13, the original Sandi, greatjourneyblog.blogspot.com

    having lived in seattle pretty much all my life i can note this is not the only way some of our “progressive” policies have slapped the public in the face. its not that i’m against a holiday celebrating native america heritage, i just think dissing the italian heritage of the emerald city is stoopid.

    Yeah, it’s not like Columbus was a lying, genocidal slave-trader, and religious fanatic, who thought nothing of rape and murder and cut off native people’s hands if they didn’t bring him gold… oh, wait, that’s exactly what he was. This is the equivalent of — to avoid Godwin’s law — appeasing the local Russian emigres by declaring Stalin Day; there are surely more admirable figures you could pick out, and honoring such a horrible person is a slap in the face to the descendants of the people he victimized.

  17. jakc says

    It’s been Native American Day in South Dakota for more than 20 years, a name change made by Republicans.

    Of course, it’s a lot easier to change a name than to do something. Something like 9 of the 11 poorest counties in this country are majority American Indian/Alaskan Native, with six of those in SD. The other two poorest counties are 95%+ Hispanic counties on the Texas/Mexico border.

  18. Rowan vet-tech says

    @13, Sandi-

    And you don’t think Colombus day is a slap in the face to people with native heritage and/or those who recognise the fact that Colombus was a *bad* person?

  20. says

    well vicar a matter of opinion. was columbus perfect? no, he was human. but the attack on columbus day is a bunch of pc bs. that said, i don’t celebrate it, and 99.9 percent of those that do only want theeday weekends. i don’t deny or belittle the horrors that europeans wrought upon north america. i will let you have your opinion and i will keep mine EOF

  21. says

    @20, the original Sandi, greatjourneyblog.blogspot.com

    Go and read the thing I linked to. Seriously. You obviously have not done so.

    There are plenty of Italians worth honoring. Columbus is not one of them. He’s not even close. People like you, who somehow think that saying he was merely “flawed” when in fact he was a genocidal monster — news flash: Columbus didn’t just kill people by accident, he was an enthusiastic killer and slaver — deserve nothing but contempt.

  22. says

    Sandi @ 20:

    but the attack on columbus day is a bunch of pc bs.

    It’s not an attack, you dimwit. It’s acknowledging that it was the contact point which heralded a genocide. You seem to be somewhat aware of the fact that not all Indians are dead. You might want to be aware of the fact that some of them are on this blog, reading your asinine and dismissive remarks.

    that said, i don’t celebrate it,

    However, you’ll spend time defending it.

    and 99.9 percent of those that do only want theeday weekends.

    No one said anything about taking their little holiday away, just not celebrating Columbus.

    i don’t deny or belittle the horrors that europeans wrought upon north america.

    Yes, you are denying and belittling the horrors which were wrought on Indigenous peoples. Most people in the States don’t know jack shit about history, let alone history as applied to the various Nations of people who were already here, and found to be very inconvenient obstacles to those who wanted the land. It wouldn’t hurt if people actually got a bit of knowledge in their heads, including you, Sandi.

  26. says

    the original Sandi @13:

    having lived in seattle pretty much all my life i can note this is not the only way some of our “progressive” policies have slapped the public in the face. its not that i’m against a holiday celebrating native america heritage, i just think dissing the italian heritage of the emerald city is stoopid.

    What exactly is this heritage you’re referring to? Can you articulate why you think this “Italian heritage” is being dissed and why it’s stupid? Is your opinion informed by facts and evidence? Can you more clearly explain your position?
    Oh, and the public isn’t being slapped in the face. Continuing to celebrate Columbus Day is an ongoing slap in the face to Indians in the US.
    re: your comment @20:
    It’s not “pc” to recognize that Christopher Columbus was not the great man that the Great American Myth Machine touts:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Columbus_celebrations
    Opposition to Columbus Day dates to at least the 19th century where activists had sought to eradicate Columbus Day celebrations because of its association with immigrants and the Knights of Columbus. They were afraid it was being used to expand Catholic influence.[44] By far the more common opposition today, decrying Columbus’s and Europeans’ actions against the indigenous populations of the Americas, did not gain much traction until the latter half of the 20th century. This opposition has been spearheaded by indigenous groups,[45][46] though it has spread into the mainstream.
    There are two main strands of this critique, which are interrelated. The first refers primarily to the indigenous population collapse and cruel treatment towards indigenous peoples during the European colonization of the American continents which followed Columbus’s discovery. Some, such as the American Indian Movement, have argued that the responsibility of contemporary governments and their citizens for allegedly ongoing acts of genocide against Native Americans are masked by positive Columbus myths and celebrations. These critics argue that a particular understanding of the legacy of Columbus has been used to legitimize their actions, and it is this misuse of history that must be exposed. F. David Peat asserts that many cultural myths of North America exclude or diminish the culture and myths of Native Americans. These cultural myths include ideas expressed by Michael Berliner of the Ayn Rand Institute claiming that Western civilization brought “reason, science, self-reliance, individualism, ambition, and productive achievement” to a people who were based in “primitivism, mysticism, and collectivism”, and to a land that was “sparsely inhabited, unused, and underdeveloped”.[47] American anthropologist Jack Weatherford says that on Columbus Day, Americans celebrate the greatest waves of genocide of the Indians known in history.[48] American Indian Movement of Colorado leader and activist Ward Churchill takes this argument further, contending that the mythologizing and celebration of the European settlement of the Americas in Columbus Day make it easier for people today to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions, or the actions of their governments regarding indigenous populations. He wrote in his book Bringing the Law Back Home:

    Very high on the list of those expressions of non-indigenous sensibility [that] contribute to the perpetuation of genocidal policies against Indians are the annual Columbus Day celebration, events in which it is baldly asserted that the process, events, and circumstances described above are, at best, either acceptable or unimportant. More often, the sentiments expressed by the participants are, quite frankly, that the fate of Native America embodied in Columbus and the Columbian legacy is a matter to be openly and enthusiastically applauded as an unrivaled “boon to all mankind”. Undeniably, the situation of American Indians will not — in fact cannot — change for the better so long as such attitudes are deemed socially acceptable by the mainstream populace. Hence, such celebrations as Columbus Day must be stopped.

    A second strain of the criticism of Columbus Day focuses on the character of Columbus himself. In time for the observation of Columbus Day in 2004, the final volume of a compendium of Columbus-era documents was published by the University of California, Los Angeles’s Medieval and Renaissance Center. Geoffrey Symcox, the general editor of the project, asserted: “While giving the brilliant mariner his due, the collection portrays Columbus as an unrelenting social climber and self-promoter who stopped at nothing— not even exploitation, slavery, or twisting Biblical scripture— to advance his ambitions… Many of the unflattering documents have been known for the last century or more, but nobody paid much attention to them until recently… The fact that Columbus brought slavery, enormous exploitation or devastating diseases to the Americas used to be seen as a minor detail – if it was recognized at all – in light of his role as the great bringer of white man’s civilization to the benighted idolatrous American continent. But to historians today this information is very important. It changes our whole view of the enterprise”.

  27. unclefrogy says

    the nature of many of our Holy Days are associated with the dead.
    I see no reason to not celebrate this one this Columbus Day in the same manner, as a day to commemorate the and contemplate the dead that resulted from the colonization of the western hemisphere by the Europeans.
    Columbus “discovering the new world” is no more a happy and glorious event than is the firing on Fort Sumter was. They mark a beginning of long and tragic stories that have in both cases not been completely told nor finished.
    I can understand why it was felt a good idea to celebrate the courage and debt we owe to those immigrants from europe that made the journey to get here they might in many cases be considered very similar to the many displaced and refuge peoples we see so often today.
    Let there be no mistake the “new world” was not uninhabited free land for the taking not for 15000 years at least! Many died needlessly as the result, for me it has feel of a memorial not a celebration.
    That is because I think too much about too many things in reality it has become just another 3 day weekend and another excuse for marketing promotions. This America whose one true god is money and it is to that we owe our allegiance to!

    uncle frogy

  29. Nick Gotts says

    EOF means i’m done with the subject – sandi

    But it doesn’t mean other people have to stop telling you what an ignorant racist fuckwit you are.

  30. brett says

    The holiday has only been celebrated officially as a federal holiday since 1937, so removing it from the list of federal holidays wouldn’t be undermining some great grand tradition aside from in Italian-American communities (where it goes back further). And we already have an American “founding” holiday celebration in the form of what Thanksgiving has turned into, which isn’t quite as ethically dubious since the Separatists at least didn’t kill a ton of people when they moved into the disease-emptied Patuxet villages, and seemed to interact fairly with the local natives.

  31. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I’m going to celebrate by going to work to keep the health insurance flowing for the Redhead.

  32. futurechemist says

    I think the disconnect has to do with how modern “Columbus Day” is much more about celebrating Italian heritage than aboutColumbus himself. I could be wrong, but when I lived in the area as a child I don’t recall much in the NYC Columbus Day parade about history and Columbus, but there were a lot of Italian-American organizations marching. In the same way that St. Patrick’s Day is less about celebrating the life of a medieval Christian saint and more about general Irish heritage.

  33. Moggie says

    When have the words “bunch of pc bs” ever been a convincing argument against anything?

  34. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    futurechemist @ 32

    So, the typical American bullshit of decontextualizing absolutely everything so we can forget about what really happened and replace it with self-aggrandizing mythology.

  35. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    Moggie @ 33

    When have the words “bunch of pc bs” ever been a convincing argument against anything?

    I’ve always found them to be a convincing argument against taking the person uttering them seriously.

  36. Moggie says

    Seven of Mine:

    I’ve always found them to be a convincing argument against taking the person uttering them seriously.

    Agreed. It’s a pretty reliable sign that that person is not worth listening to.

  37. twas brillig (stevem) says

    [derailing]
    I remember there was a Columbus Statue in the Back Bay neighborhood of Boston (on Commonwealth Ave) but at some time it was replaced by a Leif Ericson Statue as the ACTUAL founder of the New World. Whichever was the actual founder, the indigenous people were absolutely the VICTIMS. They are the ones worth remembering, neither of those “founders” deserve a Fed Holiday.
    and @32:

    St. Patrick’s Day is less about celebrating the life of a medieval Christian saint and more about general Irish heritage.

    and all those Eye-talians will wear orange, NOT Green, on that day, as a tacit protest against Irish getting a holiday and parades devoted to them.
    .
    cue Billy O’Reilly declaring the (unholy) Libs waging a War against Columbus Day. and all the Gheys infiltrating St. Patrick’s Day Parades.

  38. futurechemist says

    Seven of Mine @ 32

    That sums up a lot of American holidays. I’m not saying it’s right at all, but once people start forgetting the offensive origin of a holiday in favor of a less offensive current meaning, it’s a lot harder to convince them that the holiday is offensive.

    Also besides losing the historical context, capitalism shows up in all American holidays. It wouldn’t be an American holiday without sales on cars and furniture.

  39. Rich Woods says

    What are you going to celebrate tomorrow?

    Having a day off work. Not that it’s a national holiday here in the UK, just that I’ve booked the day off work specifically so I can sort out the house after a week of attending the Cheltenham Literature Festival rather than doing boring stuff like going to work or staying at home to clean and fix things which need cleaning and fixing.

    Columbus? Other than his desire to look over the horizon, I can’t see much to celebrate in him. He even lied to his crew.

  40. Esteleth is Groot says

    I can think of a lengthy list of worthy Italians or Italian-Americans that a holiday could be named for. Catherine of Siena, if you want to go the patron saint route like Irish-Americans. Why Columbus?

  42. blf says

    [Columbus] even lied to his crew.

    In a sense, he was lying more to himself (on the first voyage, anyways), in that his falsified estimates of distance traveled were much closer to the real value than what he was recording in his “true” journal.

  43. philhoenig says

    In Australia, the anniversary of the day the first white people set up a colony is officially referred to as Australia Day, but the most common alternative name is direct and to the point: Invasion Day.

  46. HappyNat says

    Tomorrow my wife and I plan on doing some winter shopping at the local thrift shops and having a nice lunch. We both have the day off but the kids have school so it’s like a free holiday. Columbus was an epic asshole so if I could I’d give up the day off and I’ve signed petitions to change the name/focus. I guess also on my list tomorrow is to share the truth about Columbus to counteract whatever bullshit they were fed at school.

    When discussions come up about changing the name, I always hear the “it’s about Italian heritage” argument. So I say why not rename it after a Italian who was also a good person. Then again I live in Columbus (Ohio) so I think people hear are pretty used to ignoring the baggage that comes with the name. Outside my office window is a 30-some foot statue of Columbus I see every day. So while I support a name change I have a feeling we would be one of the last ones to accept it.

  49. whheydt says

    Neither. I celebrated Leif Eriksson Day on Friday. It comes thee days before Columbus/Indigenous Peoples Day because Leif got here before Columbus.

  50. Matrim says

    I never understood why the US celebrated Columbus at all. To my knowledge, the dude never set foot on what would eventually become the US.

  51. says

    What holiday? Husband has to go to work, daughters have to go to college, I don’t get days off anyway ever. Which reminds me, there won’t be any mail delivery, and I haven’t got the invoice from Aged Mum’s caregiver agency yet. I’d better make a note to call them tomorrow, and hope they’re open.

    Personally, I’m partial to the idea of celebrating an Explorers Day, starting with the first humans to wander out of Africa, and not leaving out the various waves of people who came across from Asia to the Americas.

  53. says

    So. Ashamed. Of White people, right now.

    “What about our heritage?”

    What about it? Our heritage is whitewashed (ha!) and celebrated and promoted as The Way To Be, never you mind that nasty history of marching in to places, killing the locals, stealing the land, oppressing any survivors, and then claiming to be some kind of “saviour” or “civilising force”.

    You have your day, every day!

    Let other people share the fucking spotlight!

  54. dannicoy says

    As a person from a person from a different continent I figured that the best way to celebrate columbus day would be to visit the Americas and bring some sort of deadly infectious diseases with me. Luckily that somehow seems less appropriate for Indigenous peoples day.

  55. Kevin Schelley says

    I am planning on working on building a maze for the haunted house I’m acting in.

    On the subject of Columbus Day, I think we’ve got enough holidays celebrating dead white guys. We could stand to have at least one fucking day dedicated to the people white folk like me stole this country from.

  56. firstapproximation says

    Venezuela goes even further and celebrates Día de la Resistencia Indígena (Day of Indigenous Resistance) .

    If we want continue celebrating Italian heritage I say make Galileo Day and honor a far more worthy human being.

  57. sambarge says

    As a Canadian, I am celebrating Thanksgiving today (and grateful for it). I celebrate Aboriginal Day on June 21.

    As a Canadian of Italian descent, I’m horrified that people are making the argument that Columbus Day should be maintained for “Italian heritage”. Are you on glue? Columbus sailed before there even was an “Italy” – he was from Genoa, not “Italy” – and he sailed for the Spanish. There are a ton of Italians you can celebrate. fristapproximation @ #56 had a great idea – Galileo. Or, you can acknowledge the Columbus has about as much to do with “Italian Heritage” as I do (ie. not much) and stop getting some sense of self-worth from something so wholly unconnected to your own life.

    Happy Thanksgiving, Canadians! We had our big dinner tomorrow but we’re taking advantage of a warm sunny day (for October) to barbeque turkey burgers this afternoon.

  58. dianne says

    I’m celebrating “Monday”, myself. But I’d like to remove Columbus’ name not just from the federal holiday that my employer doesn’t recognize because they don’t have to (remind me to go to the ASH job board when I’m done here), but also from the city in Ohio. And can we get Jeffrey “smallpox” Amherst’s name off of that town in Massachusetts and the college there as well? Oh and as for that guy on the $20, it’s practically analogous to having Hitler on the 20 Euro note, sorry for the Godwin but I think it’s probably fair in this case.

  59. The Mellow Monkey says

    It’s not much of a celebration, but we will be remembering Discoverers. At some point long, long ago, the first people came over to Turtle Island. They didn’t have wealthy backers in Europe. They didn’t spread an apocalyptic plague. They weren’t foreigners exploiting the native people; their children were the first native people to be born here. They actually discovered it, unlike Columbus or Leif Erikson or anyone else settlers have put down in history books as “discovering” anything. It’s quite awe inspiring to consider that slow march of time as the first peoples spread throughout these lands for the very first time.

    I’m making corn and wild rice chowder, roasted squash and fry bread. It should be a tasty day of remembrance.

    Happy Thanksgiving, Canadian Hordelings.

  63. nich says

    I could have sworn Sandi, aka AVSN, got the banhammer a while back…but that may have been back at Sciblogs. I recall he was a world class asshole at least…

  66. says

    ts not that i’m against a holiday celebrating native america heritage, i just think dissing the italian heritage of the emerald city is stoopid.

    if Italian-Americans have no one better to celebrate their heritage with than a morally corrupt slave trader, then maybe that heritage needs to be dissed.

  68. Nick Gotts says

    so how about you leave the past in the past – sandi

    Are your stupid comments @13, 20 and 23 part of the past we’re supposed to leave in the past?

  69. lpetrich says

    Christopher Columbus got a lot of European follow-up. Previous Europeans didn’t.

    Leif Ericsson and his fellow colonists ended up abandoning Vinland even though it was a nicer place than Greenland. Was it farther away from Iceland and thus more difficult to supply? But if he had succeeded, then the “Indians” would have gotten known as “Skraelings” to Europeans.

    St. Brendan likely made it across also, but he didn’t even found any colonies.

    Any previous Europeans? Pytheas of Massalia, now Marseille, got to about as far as Iceland before he decided that he could not continue further.

    Columbus: 1492
    Leif Ericsson: ~1000
    St. Brendan: ~500
    Pytheas: ~300 BCE

  70. says

    @67, Nick Gotts:

    How about Sacco and Vanzetti Day?

    Depends on whether you want to replace Columbus — whose proponents argue that we’re commemorating some sort of ideal, rather than a controversial figure — with a pair of figures who are controversial, and would require us to celebrate them as some sort of ideal. (Remember: even if they were innocent of the crime for which they were executed — which is not universally believed — they were both what would now be considered terrorist bombers who believed in violence as a solution to social problems. Not exactly positive role models.)

  71. says

    sandi @64:

    nich, anything that happened at sciblogs was yrs ago. i behave myself here at ftb, so how about you leave the past in the past. my philosophy has grow conciderably since those long gone days.

    I wish ‘behaving yourself’ meant not dismissing the very real problems in honoring a murderous shistain like Christopher Columbus. It’s not “politically correct” to recognize that the man has done *nothing* worth honoring and plenty worth condemning. But you have your biased interpretation of history that you can’t be bothered to let facts get in the way with.
    If you ever decide to take a look at how people with a better understanding of Columbus’ actions feel about him, you could try reading up on his history.
    You might learn a thing or two about how unheroic and how vile Columbus was.
    If you undertake an honest look at the man, you might come to understand why some people refer to him as the ‘Mascot of American Colonialism’.

    That’s if, y’know you, you decide there’s some value to being ‘politically correct’.

  73. says

    Tony, having some respect for you, I respond. Its not that i dismiss ‘the very real problems’ re:Columbus. I have read some on Columbus, tho yrs ago, and know he was far from the hero we were taught he was in the curriculums in the70s/80s. As some mentioned above the day has become about italian heritage in some circles. Do we need a day that celebrates Native heritage? Hell yeah. As for the way this all went down in Seattle, as I said some of our progressiveness tends to slap the public in general or particular populations in the face. My current peeve is the plastic bag ban. I’d have been fine with the idea if they hadn’t also said ‘oh and guess what not only are we taking away your plastic bags, were gonna charge (tax) you 5 cents for a paper bag now.’ Politics! I throw up my hands sometimes.

  74. says

    @73, the original Sandi, greatjourneyblog.blogspot.com

    So, in other words, your attitude towards reform is “I am in favor of positive changes if and only if they don’t actually change anything”. You don’t want to stop being deeply offensive to natives (and, really, thinking people everywhere) because it would require that Italians find a better role model, and that would be work. You’re totally in favor of stopping environmental degradation — but not if it requires you to make the minimal effort of reusing bags or paying a tiny, tiny fee for the damage you do by using new ones every time.

    You personify the reasons why the U.S. is falling apart.

  76. Nick Gotts says

    St. Brendan likely made it across also – lpetrich@69

    There’s no evidence for this claim at all.

  77. azhael says

    I always thought it was funny that growing up Columbus was hailed as a spanish heritage figure…and he was oh so important, because he was the discoverer, the hero, but most of all, the spanish! Now it seems he was born in northern Italy and the perspective on his “accomplishments” has certainly changed for many in europe and suddenly i find people who are very keen on making it very clear that he was italian xDD Sure, he did everything in the name of the Crown of Castile, and was funded by them, but he was italian, and that matters because of all the raping, butchering, stealing, introducing of pathogens, etc….whereas the long distance sailing, well those ships and their tripulation were spanish you see….

    All in all, who cares, he was a scumbag and if he is to be remembered, he should be remembered by everything he did, that is discovering a route to the americas and introducing that whole new world to the europeans, but also the murdering, stealing, raping, and just generally being a vicious arsehole…

    I have no patience for all the people who romantisize these figures and their epic journeys…you want the valiant hero experience? Read fiction….

  78. says

    vicar @74– just from the few posts you’ve made in this thread it is clear you’re one of these ‘never let ’em win’ types. I consign you to the noise hereforth, and don’t even give you the courtesy of an eye roll for your efforts. You assume an aweful lot from very little. Try again at some future date when you know me better. btw 5 cents a bag isnt tiny, it adds up FAST. ‘ specially when you’re on SNAP and trying to stretch a dollar.

  80. azhael says

    Then bring reused bags with you, like every single student or person with very limited income i’ve ever met…
    If i know i’m going to the supermarket, i bring my own bags…it’s really that simple. And while i found it very mildly annoying at first i honestly am astonished that this is not the way things have always worked in my lifetime.

  81. says

    azhael @ 80: im not against banning the plastic, im against taxing me out of the city i live in. im old enuff to remember when paper was the norm. and paper can go into the recycling. nor do i mind the idea of reusables, but dont penalize me cuz i only brought 3 bags along on what end up being a 4 bag grocery trip. its a greedy way to put little bits of money into the city coffers, excused by the ‘c were being ecominded’ gambit

  82. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    the original Sandi, greatjourneyblog.blogspot.com @ 79

    also, any (almost any) comment that begins with ‘ in other words’ usually goes down hill fast. imho and experience anyhow.

    Dealing with people who understand what words mean and refuse to let you off the hook for the ridiculous and ignorant things you say is such a chore, isn’t it?

  83. azhael says

    Why shouldn’t you be “penalized”, as you chose to put it, for failing to asses the number of bags you’d need. You are suggesting that if you fall short and you require more bags, you are entitled to them. You are not. They are costly to produce, they are costly to the environment and they are costly to process after being used. It is entirely fair that you should be charged for them. If you want to avoid having to pay for them, which i certainly understand, bring extra bags….or limit your shopping to what you can carry with the ones you brought. It’s not the store’s, or the city’s responsibility to solve that problem for you. It’s up to you. I know, it sucks….

  84. says

    i do my part by recycling. which ive done since well before the city corpratized it. as for the cost, recycling is big busines now and i doubt that extra bag costs 1/100000th of the five cents i paid for it to recyc. im not ‘super eco warrior’ up in here, just a regular bloke doin his little part. yeah i could do more probly, but well u know life and all that. id like to see some sort of home based recyc tech. think aluminum cans reprocessed to be forks knife spoons or junk mail becomes plates cups. a dream probly but something to mull over :)

  85. davem says

    Hmm, there’s a lot of heated arguments here, about the famous explorer Cristoforo Colombo . Why are you celebrating this ‘Columbus’ guy? Even Colombo, who did at least cross the Atlantic, completely missed the USA four times. Remind me why you’re celebrating him?

  90. says

    @81, the original Sandi, greatjourneyblog.blogspot.com

    im not against banning the plastic, im against taxing me out of the city i live in. im old enuff to remember when paper was the norm. and paper can go into the recycling.

    You… wow, you just know nothing whatsoever about the topic, do you? And yet you continue to comment. Says a lot about you.

    Both paper and plastic bags “can go into the recycling”. The problem is that recycling grocery bags doesn’t help the environment very much. (Plastic bags are so thin that they require separate procedures to be recycled, because they tend to burn rather than melt, and the process of recycling paper bags causes approximately as much environmental damange — albeit in different ways — as making new paper, because of the chemistry required to break down the paper.) Saying “waste is okay because of recycling” is just plain false — which is why the people who have actually studied the issue recommend policies which lead to less waste: reusable bags.

    nor do i mind the idea of reusables, but dont penalize me cuz i only brought 3 bags along on what end up being a 4 bag grocery trip. its a greedy way to put little bits of money into the city coffers, excused by the ‘c were being ecominded’ gambit

    Yeah, I’m sure your five cents once a month, which you pay only because you failed to plan ahead, is paying for some city official’s yacht. (Why, incidentally, don’t you save the bag you paid that five cents for, and keep it folded in the bottom of one of your reusable bags as a spare? Then you wouldn’t need to pay for another one next time. Oh, I forgot, that would require effort and foresight on your part, and you don’t do that.) You can’t see me right now, but I’m rolling my eyes at your stupidity.

  91. WhiteHatLurker says

    It was Thanksgiving … does every town in Ohio get its own day down there?

    Does Valerie Bertinelli come to the Cleveland Day celebrations?

  92. Ichthyic says

    azhael @ 80: im not against banning the plastic, im against taxing me out of the city i live in. im old enuff to remember when paper was the norm. and paper can go into the recycling. nor do i mind the idea of reusables, but dont penalize me cuz i only brought 3 bags along on what end up being a 4 bag grocery trip. its a greedy way to put little bits of money into the city coffers, excused by the ‘c were being ecominded’ gambit

    logic fail.

    both paper and plastic are recyclable, and pretty much to the same extent, and both have their issues with environmental degradation in their initial production and in the recycling process.

    the best way to avoid ALL the issues you mention is simply to carry your own cloth bag/backpack/etc to market.

    it’s sheer laziness not to.