You know, that moment in an interview where suddenly the subject goes wandering off script, and becomes fervent — obsessed even — on a subject that makes your eyebrows rise up and reach for your hairline, and you’re beginning to wonder whether someone will kick the person under the table or make that throat-cutting motion with their hand or something, anything, to get them to shut up because you can’t believe that they’re saying such hateful, stupid stuff? Yeah, that happened.
Mathew Klickstein has a niche: he’s fanatical about old kid shows on Nickelodeon. It’s a weirdly twee sort of thing to care so much about, but I can sort of see it — my kids were big fans of shows like Rugrats and The Adventures of Pete & Pete (that one had Iggy Pop on it, which I thought was awesome) and Clarissa. So he’s doing a show in New York about these old cartoons, he’s written a book about them, and he’s getting interviewed, and yes, he really, really knows a lot of minutiae about Nickelodeon cartoons.
Then they ask him about diversity.
He’s uncomfortable when shows with white characters have brown people shoved into them.
I think it’s worse when they shove it in there. Sanjay and Craig is a really good example, which funnily enough is written in part by Will McRobb and Chris Viscardi from Pete & Pete. That show is awkward because there’s actually no reason for that character to be Indian — except for the fact that [Nickelodeon President] Cyma Zarghami and the women who run Nickelodeon now are very obsessed with diversity. Which is fine — do what you’re gotta do, and Dora [the Explorer] was certainly something of a success, but there’s no reason for [Sanjay] to be Indian at all. No one working on that show is Indian. They’re all white. It’s all the white people from Bob’s Burgers and Will and Chris.
How awkward! It’s a show with an Indian character, and there’s no reason for them to be Indian! When, as everyone knows, there are lots of really good reasons for characters to be white. What?
This is going off the wall, but he keeps on talking. Apparently, it’s really hard to be a white man.
To just shove it in there because, “Uh-oh, we need diversity,” is silly and a little disgusting. It needs to be the best people working on the best shows. They happen to be white, that’s a shame. They happen to be all guys, that’s a shame. No one says this about sports — they do sometimes, the owners — but sorry, that most basketball, football players happen to be black. That’s just the way that it is. Publishing, too! You might not like this or care, but it’s very hard to be a man in the publishing world. No one talks about that. My agent: woman. My editor: woman. My publicist: woman. The most successful genre is young adult novels — 85% of which are written by women. That discussion doesn’t really come up when it’s the other way around. It is 2014 now. It’s not 1995. Political correctness needs to change.
There are worlds where white guys get shit, too. I’m starting to do stand-up comedy now and it’s hard to go up there and talk about how hard it is to be a guy. People don’t wanna hear it! A girl can go up there and talk all she wants about how hard it is to be a girl, and she gets applauded. These are obviously some of my own personal views and aren’t as important, but I’m bringing up this stuff because it’s all very malleable, it’s very flexible.
He keeps talking. Dear god.
What we really need to bring to the fore is: how good is the show? How good is the end product? I don’t really care who worked on it. I don’t really care what sector of society it shows. What I care about is: Is it good or is it bad? Pete & Pete is an amazing show; who cares that it was made by white people and is about white people? That’s not important. What’s important is, how good is it? Some of these other shows — My Brother and Me, Diego, and Legend of Korra — it’s great that they’re bringing diversity into it now. Fantastic. But you know those shows are not nearly as good as Ren and Stimpy, which was made by all white people! Or Pete & Pete, which was all white people! I’m not saying white people are better at it or anything, I’m just saying that part of it doesn’t matter. What matters is how good is it and does it hold the test of time?
He doesn’t understand why a show might need some non-white characters, but at the same time, he’s offended when they have ethnic characters, or someone in a wheelchair — why, that’s exploitation.
You’re saying, “If it doesn’t matter, then why not let them be Indian?” I’m saying, “If it doesn’t matter, why make them Indian?” There’s no reason for it. It becomes, “Look, we’ve got an Indian character now on our show, our network, as opposed to not doing that.” I think that that can be predatory. I would be offended if one of the friends on Clifford the Big Red Dog had a friend who was in a wheelchair. I understand the idea of “There’s someone like me,” but … it’s necessary [that the show is] actually saying something, doing something with it. When you just throw it on there — oh, the friend happens to be black, the best friend’s a girl — I feel that it’s being used. I feel like it becomes a pickaninny thing. That’s honestly how I feel about it. Because there’s no reason for it, that makes it more offensive, exploitative, and predatory because then it is just being used.
I don’t think Mr Klickstein did his book sales any favor.
Also, his New York event got cancelled.
He also trashed on Clarissa in some of his comments in general, because it was only popular because girls liked it, and I guess that’s bad or something (DC Comics has cancelled cartoons for the same reason). Apparently I was wrong to like CEIA, and not just because I thought Melissa Joan Hart was cute (though I did… hey, I was a 12-year-old boy when it came out), but because I felt it was just entertaining. It was a unique little show that sort of fit that post-80s/early-90s feel of us that don’t really fit into Gen-X or Y exactly.
Course, none of that changes the fact that this guy is just an ass, who luckily is seeing his fifteen minutes cut fourteen-and-a-half short.
Mathew Klickstein also wrote a horror/erotica novel with this description:
A preview of the first 20% of it can be read at Smashwords. The prologue involves the protagonist fondling a comatose girl’s “baby breasts.”
Even ignoring his blithering racism, dude writes erotically about the molestation of unconscious “gamines.” Eesh. Kind of the last person I want to go listen to talk about children’s programming.
I’m not a racist, BUT, I think that every single character should be white unless there is an explicit, undeniable (although apparently undefinable) reason for making them not white.
He’s just so obsessed and angry about not caring about race, except when he cares about it more than anything.
Come on now. If white males aren’t supposed to be THE default, how come we’re the majority? Explain THAT!
That’s pretty much the textbook definition of privileged – when not only is your type the default, any deviation from that type needs an affirmative reason to exist.
(I can just see him agreeing, saying he *knew* Sanjay was affirmative action)
Good.
Korra isn’t as good as Ren and Stimpy?!?! Seriously? No.
And even then, Korra is voiced pretty much entirely by white actors. Hell, Bud freaking Bundy is one of the main characters on Korra.
Well, that calls for a little Nelson Muntz,
His publicist must have been out getting a grande mochaccino during the interview. Seriously, I’ve seen publicists act like Secret Service agents, throwing themselves in between an interviewer and their client.
Link to this monstrosity? So we can read it in all of it’s … glory?
(emphasis mine)
your brain on racism.
carlie @ 7, I hadn’t realized how incredibly white the voice actors were until you pointed that out. Rami Malek–one of my all-time favorite actors–played Tahno on Korra in the first season and I guess I just assumed there would be more diversity. Yet it looks like his three episode arc was one of the biggest for a less-than-shining-white actor on there. That’s really disappointing.
Also, one rarely sees white-as-default spelled out so explicitly. Makes deconstruction & criticism easier.
And yet, no mention of “You Can’t Do That On Television” one of Nick’s earliest shows and where they got their green slime logo. It had a more diverse cast than other shows at the time with a female taking the lead spot for several seasons.
@10 Seems more like nostalgia combined with racism to search for a common thread. I’m curious if he’s watched Ren & Stimpy in the last 10+ years. The answer is almost assuredly no.
Legend of Korra lost me, I couldn’t watch much into it because I immediately sided more with the villains. To be fair comparing these shows is like saying that The Dark Knight was a better action film than The Wings of Desire to me.
…and yet, just up-page, he says
He’s not saying it…except that he is.
–
Alverant @ 13
He talks about it.
In case anyone is confused: Hispanics and Indians can be anywhere. Even outside of Arizona. Even in cartoons.
So… all the (white male, apparently) people in the world who have a friend that happens to be black, or whose best friend is a girl… those friendships are just “a pickaninny thing”? What in the actual ever-loving FUCK.
I just got out of the shower and right now I want to jump back in. Ugh. Oh, and I’m not so sure about Legend of Korra, but Avatar: the Last Airbender is one of the best tv shows I’ve ever seen, full stop. DEFINITELY better than Ren & Stimpy.
I love me some absurdist humor via Ren & Stimpy, but is it really better than Korra? I don’t think so.
Thanks, Monkey. I just read what PZ posted. I couldn’t find the link to the whole interview. It is worth pointing out YCDTOTV was a Canadian production that Nick aired and not actually filmed there. The show lasted a really long time before new management took over (ain’t it always the case) and things went downhill with their changes. I do remember a cast member, a little girl who was Asian, because they mentioned she was born when the show first came on the air. Also they used so many different actors so that the kids can have a life outside the show and not become the child star train wrecks we see elsewhere. Most of the child cast only appeared for a handful of shows with a few long-term exceptions.
Looking back I think the diversity was part of what made it good. I remember the family skits with kids of different races acting like a “regular” family. It was probably done to avoid hiring more actors (there were only two adults in the cast) and not to make a statement about multi-racial families.
“My agent: woman. My editor: woman. My publicist: woman.”
I wonder how long before they’re his ex-agent, editor, and publicist. Especially the publicist.
Interesting language there.
So…in order to have a non-white character in a show, there must be a token non-white person on staff?
There’s that interesting word choice again.
Disgusting, is it? I smell a massive pile of privilege. So, white people superior because reasons. It must be time for the women.
Yep, there it is. It’s the womens’ fault. Oh, how awful, they’re just stomping all over the poor, poor men who are writers. Why, there aren’t any men writing YA fiction!1!!…wait. There are actually a whole lot of male authors in YA – Rick Riordan comes to mind, and he’s a *gasp* white guy. I expect that any problems you encounter, Mr. Klickstein, has to do with the quality of your writing.
Goodness, I had no idea! None, I say.
Right, it doesn’t matter. Except for all those times you kept saying how white people are superior, and put out a superior product.
Well, I realize this would fly on Planet Whiteallthetime, but on this planet, people like to see themselves reflected in culture, y’know, television shows, movies, books, magazines, adverts, all that.
! The best thing you could do, Mr. Klickstein, is to shut the fuck up until you achieve decent human being status.
TMM quotes @ #2:
Ugh. I won’t be purchasing anything from Mr. Klickstein. This excerpt reminded me of Sen. Napoli’s rape scenario which might be grounds for an abortion, and that is, to date, one of the creepiest, skeeviest things I have ever read. Amazing that it now has competition.
“I’m Puerto Rican, Matt.”
“That… doesn’t make sense. It’s who I am; I was born there. In Puerto Rico.”
“It doesn’t ‘bring’ anything. My background shouldn’t be relevant to our friendship –”
“. . .”
“For fuck’s sake Matt, I’m Puerto Rican!”
Yes, life is hard, and it’s hard for everyone. And yes, being a straight, white male is not a floor under which you can not be thrown, there exists no bottom limit to the crap that can happen and that life can get really bad for anyone. That said, what Mr. Klickstein fails to realize is that assuming all else remains the same but you just change-out the straight, the white or the male then life gets orders of magnitude worse. The reality of this “shit-shift” as I call it often does not penetrate the consciousness of privileged whiners. Funny, that.
I’ll just add to the incredulity of him considering Legend of Korra worse than Ren and Stimpy. It’s not entirely without its flaws (though I suspect its at least in part because Season 1 and Season 2 effectively had to be written as stand alones while Seasons 3 and 4 so far are flowing together better because they were green-lit together), but… come on!
I’ll also add that if he needs a rational for a character to be a different ethnicity Legend of Korra provides that in spades. The ordering of the Avatar cycle was established quite early on in the first series, well before Korra was even thought of. We knew she was going to be from one of the Water Tribes. Ditto for the gender thanks to establishing that there have been Avatars of both genders.
Having gotten a taste of what Sanjay and Craig is like, it’s awkward being put in the position of defending the show. But just the same, go to hell, Klickstein. The one good thing about this show is its portrayal of a non-stereotypical non-white character in the lead role.
And the audience? Are they all white too?
I’m not sure I understand the reasoning. So, the team working on some cartoon is all white (btw, why should I know that, and why should I care ?), so the characters are to be white? If there’s no Indian in the team, there’s no reason to have an Indian character?
It’s interesting to see that the guys starts with skin colors, and then goes on to handicap, gender (“the best friend’s a girl”) and… where would he stop? I’d have loved to be the interviewer, and tickle him so see how far he’s ready to go. What about a character with glasses? A vegetarian? A redhead? A person with facial scars? A bald guy? Someone who stutters? Is it ok, Mr Klickstein, or do you have to have a special motivation in order to be allowed to include them?
i have a pretty good feeling that mr kkklickstein’s downtrodden life as an under-appreciated american ruling-class straight white male artiste is about to get a bit more trodden down.
Rich Woods@28,
Even if some of them are not, do they have a reason not to be white?
white male privilege really is the privilege to be stupid.
From the Mellow Monkey’s quotation at 16:
Misuse of “whom” is always a good indication of arrogant arseholes.
So he gets up on stage and complains about how hard it is for him to be a dude and no one laughs.
CONSPIRACY!!!11!!0
“there’s no reason for [Craig] to be a snake at all. No one working on that show is a snake. They’re all human.”
Makes pretty much about as much sense…which is fucking none…
This guy is an arsehole and i hope he gets a lot of heckling in his shitty stand up show When Boys Whine.
Jesus! You know what people don’t wanna hear? How hard it is that people don’t appreciate your comedy! If you’re not getting laughs, change your material. Your audience don’t owe you applause.
That “erotic” extract makes me shudder. I really hope that “Oliver” character isn’t a Mary Sue.
Well… I mean… his name’s Sanjay. I know that names aren’t restricted to their nations and nationalities of origin, but Sanjay is definitely a name that invokes images of an Indian guy more easily than a white guy, so that would seem to be one reason for him to be Indian.
Another reason might be “why the hell not?” There’s certainly no particular reason why the main character in the book I’m trying to write would have to be a woman, but she still is. I don’t see why all elements of characterisation would need a defence for straying outside what’s considered a norm. I realise that he sees this as a bad argument, but he doesn’t appear to see any need to defend the idea of white or male characters, so that would seem to be an inconsistent stance.
(side note)
sugarfrosted at #14 – Korra has ups and downs (I couldn’t stand Korra herself for, oh, the entire second season), but it’s been on a big up for the last half of the 3rd season and is roaring into the 4th.
Kagato at #24 – that’s it in a nutshell, right there.
Indeed. White is just there, anyone else can’t be there without a darned good reason. Ugh.
This interview seems to me to be one of the purest expressions of privilege: the universal assumption that if someone (character, writer, etc) is white, they’re there because they’re the best, but if they’re non-white, they’re there because they’re non-white.
Just for future reference, Mr. Klickstein, thinking that is pretty much exactly what racism is.
It’s also pretty heavily misinformed. Most animation outside of key frames is actually done by large teams of Koreans or Indians already anyway. If you look through the credits for Korra (WAY better than Ren & Stumpy), you’ll notice a strong preponderance of Korean and Indian names. So the show, by his logic, should be even browner than it is.
That *shudder* erotica sounds like terrible fan-fic. Maybe since no women are writing his book, no women should be in it. He can find the body of an attractive teenage boy and take him home, then get all freaky-deaky because he’s so wound up by the lad’s not-so-innocent body.
Or better yet, we equip him with a wrist bracelet that makes a squealing feedback noise the closer he gets to a keyboard or microphone.
“Look, we’ve got an Indian character now on our show, our network, as opposed to not doing that.” I think that that can be predatory.
I realize that he is a sexist, racist, privileged asshole but even a sexist, racist, privileged asshole should realize that words have actual meanings and that there is no way in hell that this sentence makes any sense at all. Apparently, neither do any of the 5023 sentences (TFS;DR) that preceded it.
Dude, buy a dictionary or STFU! (On second thought just STFU.)
For the record, the reason there are so many women in publishing is because it pays shit. Men have more options for getting jobs in better-paying professions. I also note the big publishing houses are top-heavy with dudes in the upper/senior positions, while middle and entry-level are markedly female.
One might think those women would eventually filter to the top. I’ve been in the biz for 20 years and yet that hasn’t changed. Systemic sexism in action, right before your eyes. No one does anything on purpose, it just…happens that male editors/marketing/forecasting/etc folks get promoted more.
Don’t get me started on the lack of African Americans in big New York publishing. That’s a systemic problem that starts well outside the industry and isn’t made better within it.
I was thinking along the lines of katago: In life people just happen. They don’t need to apply for being non-white and present their business model in order to be approved.
Also, I smell ” reverse racism” whenever he gets off about the non-whiteness and non-maleness being used
One wonders whether he knows that one of the recurring dogs on Clifford only has 3 legs. But maybe he can’t count that high.
Mathew Klickstein seems awfully bothered by the mere presence of women and people of other races. I really can’t see any other way to interpret this since his only reason for why there should not be women and minorities is “There’s no reason for it.”
This would simply not occur to him to say unless he thought the mere presence of a woman or a minority in entertainment (or anywhere else it seems by the way they bother him in other areas) was threatening. Unless Mr. Klickstein actively wants to remove women and minorities from places the only reaction to seeing more of them should be nothing beyond seeing them there.
“Pickaninny” is an odd word choice, Mr Klickstein. Or, maybe not, given your context…
He’s telling the interviewer, a woman of color (I hope I’m using correct terms), that women and people of color (any except white) are pretty much worthless. She gives him multiple chances to redeem himself and give any rational explanation why he said this, and he just doubles-down on the implications of what he says. He even mentions that the people in charge of his livelihood are all women, and he believes they have a negative value. One might be surprised if he doesn’t have to get a new publisher for another book.
Also, he’s wrong.
It’s incidental that he’s wrong, because the point still stands. When the only creators given room to create are white, should they make lily-white shows?
But, at the same time, he’s wrong.
The guy’s a purist. He doesn’t want his childhood memories soiled with any messy diversity.
He’s also clueless. He can’t hear himself or see himself clearly. What he really likes, what he really wants is all white all the time.
How dare these animators show characters who are scientists, soldiers, martial artists…don’t they understand they aren’t any of those things? They are all animators and writers and producers. They should just stick to depicting their own kind.
Riiiiiight.
Also, he is mean towards Hey Dude and Salute Your Shorts, but I think those shows work just as well as Pete & Pete to me, today. I loved those shows.
Since when are actors not considered to be people “working on that show”? I checked the cast list and there are a couple of actors of Indian heritage voicing the ethnically Indian characters (and also Grey DeLisle, because there is apparently a law that mandates that if you ever hire more than one voice actor for a project, at least one of your voice actors must be Grey DeLisle).
I’m most offended that he thinks Ren & Stimpy is entirely and obviously superior to Legend of Korra.
Not really: I’m most offended by the unexamined White-is-default-and-probably-better racism.
@The Mellow Monkey #11: They had a few other ethnically Asian voice actors, but, yeah, it’s still almost entirely White people. And it’s shameful that they didn’t try harder to get more Asian actors for the second series.
The thing that pisses me off the most is that people use their “concern” for diversity occurring in only organic and authentic ways. Thus there can be no morally motivated reasoning to pursue diversity for its own sake. No, defintely not in a system which punishes organic and authentic diversity by having its motivating factors discounted, disbelieved or belittled. Fuck this guy whose name I won’t even bother to remember or utter.
He’s wrong about Clarissa Explains it All. I know a lot of guys who loved that show, too (and not just because they had a crush on Clarissa/Melissa, although they did, and, well, so did I… haha :) ).
Anyway, it was a great show. I watched the first three or four episodes just the other month, and for a teen show from the 90’s, it still holds up quite well, and my memories of how distinct and awesome the characters were held true (which doesn’t always happen when you look back on shows from your childhood or teen years).
Clarissa was a strong, well-written and well-balanced character, even from the first episode (and Melissa Joan Hart played her perfectly). She was edgy and smart, and not afraid to speak her mind. Plus she and Sam had a great friendship, something we don’t see often when it comes to different genders spending time together — they were FRIENDS, and their parents trusted them to spend time together alone in their room. This wouldn’t happen today, at least not with such ease.
Her parents and brother were also well defined characters. A lot of the characters in teen shows today can seem a little same-ey, in individual shows and when compared to others (particularly with Disney shows).
Clarissa Explains it All, in my opinion, was ahead of its time and more than just simply a “teen show”. It was smart and sassy and obviously very feminist. Clarissa’s parents were supportive of her individuality, and her mom in particular was pretty awesome. I think I might go back to it (It’s on Amazon Prime!!) and finish it, actually.
It’s one of my favorite sitcoms (I really like sitcoms), and I’m glad that it held up so well upon viewing again as an adult.
A GREAT sitcom should have well written, well balanced characters, but the characters should also unique, even zany, and it works even better when there is an edge or subversiveness about them (something Friends lacked, but NewsRadio had, for example). Remember Fresh Prince of Bell Air and its best moments (particularly between Will and his Dad)? Sure, Fresh Prince was a little cheesy at times, but it was still a great sitom, because it all the right elements (and a little cheese can be quite fun). WHY YES I did just put Clarissa Explains it All and Fresh Prince of Bel Air on the same level.
He was so wrong about Clarissa Explains it All. Of course, that’s because he feels threatened by strong women, and Clarissa is that.
I know that he wrote this under the guise of some character he wrote, but let’s be real here: That character is him. He is a terrible writer and there is no way that he can write characters that *aren’t* based totally around himself and his (fantasy) world.
And i left out him claiming he “loves” women (well — “girls”, as he calls even grown women), because that’s bullshit. This is the same type of contradictory shit an abusive partner will toss out at his victim. He is threatened by and hates women (“girls”).
Ugh. I am so creeped out.
And fuck him. Clarissa Explains It All was and still is awesome.
I wonder if he’s trying, albeit badly, to address the issue satirized here.
Then again, if that’s the only understanding of “diversity” he has, it’s not an improvement. >.>
….okay, I read the author’s note for that link; it seems like rather than satirizing hamhanded, privileged, and insensitive attempts at cargo-cult “diversity” as I originally took the comic, she was trying to make basically the same “point” Klickstein was.
Eww. :(
When I was young, they had commercials with Power Rangers basically advertising diversity. I wonder if they made this guy throw up or what? They would have the Power Rangers in a diner with all kinds of different people (still mostly white people…) and they’d say stuff like “It’d be so boring if everyone was the same!” etc. That was extremely easy for me to understand as a kid, even if I didn’t grasp everything about diversity. I feel like that is the simplest reason why this guy is wrong. A bunch of white dudes who all look the same is fucking boring to watch day in, day out. Unless you’re a huge bigot that is sickened by seeing anything else.
My favorite movie as a kid was Nick’s version of Harriet the Spy. A rich white girl main character who was smart, curious, and independent. She had a best friend who was a poor boy and a best friend who was a black girl (and awesomely smart mad scientist). I bet that successful movie doesn’t register for that guy because girls are yucky, especially black girls.
A show which, let’s remember, stars a dog and a cat. How is it supposed to prove diversity is wrong is beyond me.
Romantic fanfic for MRAs.
He had a really “great” quote:
[cite]Shows like My Brother And Me, Taina, and My Cousin Skeeter are never going to get the same nostalgic treatment.[/cite]
Now, I liked Pete and Pete. But if he thinks that somehow generates more nostalgia than “diversity shows” I have one question:
Who loves orange soda?
Yes, but they’re clearly a white dog and cat, and that’s the important thing.
Okay, Stimpy’s brown and Chihuahuas are from Mexico, but their souls are white. That’s the important thing.
karpad:
Kel loves orange soda!
Deityfree @ 47:
I was wondering when someone would mention this. Isn’t that word an uncommon racial slur?
What I really want to know is why they had a black cat on Sabrina The Teenage Witch, when none of the crew were cats?
@dreikin & karpad
Kel loves orange soda!
Is it true?!
Damn, blockquote monster ate the big quote. Ah well, it’s only 4 inches up the screen.