Never tangle with Reddit or 4chan. Their apologists are oblivious and indefatigable. (All comments below are paraphrases of actual email and twitter comments received today.)
Me: “Ben & Larry’s Ice Cream is delicious, but the PoopBits are disgusting. I’m never buying this brand of ice cream again — I don’t know why they can’t get rid of them, they responded when the FDA cracked down and got the Runny VomitVeins out last year.”
A1: It’s the principle of the thing: you have to allow the PoopBits in order to have the deliciousness.
Me: “What happened to principle with the VomitVeins? Did it get less delicious when those were removed?”
A1: <silence>
A2: If they take out the PoopBits, what’s to stop them from taking out the chocolate chips? I love the chocolate chips!
A3: Poop is natural. Everyone poops. It’s pointless to oppose something that everyone has to live with anyway.
A4: But the PoopBits are popular! Eleventythousand people bought the Ben & Larry’s ice cream with Extra PoopBits!
A5: But the PoopBits aren’t very popular! Quit focusing on the trivial issues and enjoy the whole Ben & Larry’s experience.
A6: The people who like the PoopBits are mentally ill. Are you trying to discriminate against the mentally ill?
A7: You don’t own Ben & Larry’s. You don’t get to tell them what to do. You aren’t the boss of them.
A8: Ben & Larry’s is an extremely successful company, therefore they know what they are doing and what is best.
A9: The PoopBits are so obvious. Why can’t you just eat around them, or pick them out?
A10: Ben & Larry’s does not discriminate on the basis of ingredients. Because of that, we can get vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, as well as poop.
A11: You social justice warriors are always trying to tell me to stop eating poop, and to stop feeding poop to my children. Well, I’m going to eat an extra helping of poop just to spite you. So there.
A12: If you stop eating Ben & Larry’s, you also have to stop eating peaches. Flies poop on those, you know.
A13: You can never defeat poop. Don’t bother resisting, just shut up and eat it anyway.
A14: 4flan has more PoopBits in it than Ben & Larry’s, so you should be grateful for your Ben & Larry’s With Slightly Less Poop In It. Oh, but 4flan’s ice cream is also really good.
A15: FUCK YOU IM GOIN TO KILL YOU. POOPBITS MAKE MY BONER HARD.
I haven’t had a surge of defensiveness quite so abrupt since I was rude to a cracker. I’m hoping this one doesn’t last as long…odds are good, Reddit people seem to have very short attention spans.
Shirley you have better things to do?
Wasn’t there something about the lab and bondage?
I knew this would be next. It’s like poking a stick at a bee hive.
No, I have nothing better to do. In 40 minutes I plunge into lab and classes, and right now I’m taking it easy and drinking a little coffee. YOU DON’T GET TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO. YOU AREN’T THE BOSS OF ME.
Ah, A11, now there’s a mental image worth keeping!
Here’s the strongest counterargument that I’d make to your stance: you take reddit as a whole, as a single entity that contains all of its pieces.
I think that’s a bit misleading. Reddit’s aspirations are more akin to those of the web as a whole. Anyone who wants to set up a website can do so, and claim anything they like from that space. The fact that there are piles of neonazi websites online is not a criticism of the web itself, but just the reality that, given the opportunity, people are going to say really stupid and offensive things.
Reddit wants to be that kind of space. It wants to be a service, and then allow the owners of individual subreddits worry about the day-to-day management of content. Each subreddit is its own site, which while Reddit provides common functionality that ties the sites together, Reddit wants little to do with the underlying content.
I say wants to be because they obviously are not. And that creates the conflict. At the same time, I find these criticisms of Reddit somewhat concerning, because they seem to put a great deal of responsibility on the service provider for managing the behavior of the service users.
Ignoring Reddit’s specific lapses in administration, your argument seems to be that a service provider may not be neutral towards the content posted using that service. I’m not a fan of that stance. I administer a few different forums online, and I make an active choice to be non-neutral because I want to breed a certain kind of community in that space. I see no moral failing, however, in providing a discussion space and letting people use it as they please. Nor do I really see any failing in profiting from it. There’s a long line between permission and endorsement.
The valiant defenders of PhilosophyOfRape / RapingWomen / BeatingWomen2 / HotRapeStories / ChokeABitch/ CuteFemaleCorpses / WatchPeopleDie / GreatApes and more, so articulate, so eloquent.*
*For the hard of thinking, that bit is sarcasm.
PZ @3, you left out, “And don’t call me Shirley.” It was set up on a tee for you. Shame.
But PoopTube and Squitter!
Therefore, do nothing.
remyporter @ 5:
No, there really isn’t. Reddit hides behind , no matter how vile the users and content is, and only reluctantly do something when there is a public outcry, like when they allowed child porn. It took a public outcry, for fuck’s sake, for them to do anything. And since you decided to dump your apologia in this thread, I repost this from the first thread – from PhilosophyOfRape:
Don’t defend Reddit sitting on their collective arse, allowing this sort of thing.
Hey, professor smarty-pants, I use Reddit and my attention span is just as long as oh look I found a quarter!
Really? Are you neutral towards content wherein the poster claims to have committed hate crimes, encourages others to commit hate crimes, and gives them information about how to get away with it? Because that’s what we’re talking about here.
Even if it pleases them to brag about committing hate crimes and to encourages others to commit them?
You don’t see the moral failing in providing a platform for people to brag about committing hate crimes and encouraging others to do so and discussing how to evade punishment for hate crimes.
Really, that says more about you than it does about anything else.
It’s a privately owned company, which is a single entity containing those pieces. So there’s nothing misleading about that. And there is no need whatsoever for it to have the proverbial PoopBits which give Nazis a boner.
It can’t be. It’s not the entire internet, and it won’t ever be the entire internet.
This is not about the fact that neo-Nazi websites exist, or that they (in some cases) have a right to freely express their hate. This is about people in one company deciding they should host that shit. They should not do that, whether or not these people merely exist or merely have some kind of right to spew some of their shit in public. But it is interesting that you’re satisfied abstracting this all away as a form of “management of content” … as if somehow that were more of a concern than fucking Nazis invading your nice little “free” space.
You see no moral failing in profiting from a “discussion space” that you offer to Nazis, to use as they please? Why don’t you see it? Are you even looking?
remyporter #5
The standard they walk past is the standard they accept. “Permitting” is not a neutral stance.
Also: They don’t just permit it. It doesn’t float around in some ethereal cyber-cloud and just happen to end up with a Reddit URL. They store it on their own servers.
For neutral or good acts, yes.
But when you acknowledge that a certain action is immoral, permitting it is the same as endorsing it.
You wouldn’t want your child’s school to say, “While we don’t endorse bullying, we permit each class to decide on their own if they want to allow bullying or not.”
Sorry, forgot to include the reference to remyporter’s post #5.
Daz @ 13:
I was just thinking about that. If you apply The standard you walk past is the standard you accept to Reddit…seems their only standard is to protect vileness in its many forms.
obdisclaimer: yes, I know there are some good people on Reddit. I think it’s past time they walk away from Reddit’s standard.
Iyeska, flos mali, SallyStrange. I’d like to lay out two things. First, these subreddits are offensive. Second, this has nothing to do with free speech.
The question is this: does Reddit have any responsibility to build a healthy community? I argue they do not. It’d be nice if they did, and a lot of subreddits go a long way to doing that. But just because someone builds a service that allows people to post things does not automatically make them responsible for what people use it to post. They may choose to take responsibility, and kudos to those that do. However, the simple act of creating a communications service does not compel the creator to moderate it.
That doesn’t excuse the existence of these offensive subreddits, but let’s pick on the real villains: the shitheads who create and use the subreddits, may they stumble and fall down an infinitely long flight of stairs.
Perhaps I say this more out of a little professional sympathy. The people who built Reddit built it like a programmer would build it- they solved the interesting technical problems, but completely ignored the confusing and impossible to solve social problems.
All that said, my concerns have nothing to do with Reddit specifically. I’m just generally not in favor of the idea that providing a good or service automatically makes you responsible for how your good or service is used. It’s good to go above and beyond, but that behavior is strictly optional behavior. Instead of providing negative reinforcement to actors who don’t go above and beyond (which is a terrible way to change behavior), we should instead focus on positive examples and provided them with positive reinforcement- like increasing their user-base.
Remyporter, providing a good or service already does make you responsible for how it is used. Public transit? Airplanes? Roads? Hotels? Food? That list goes on and on. It is willful ignorance to ignore the reality that providing a good or service comes with responsibility for how it is used. You’ve made a bad argument. Don’t dig.
If they can make the choice to take responsibility or not, then how does it follow that they’re not responsible? You’re contradicting yourself. If they choose not to take responsibility, then they’re also responsible for that choice. You can’t escape moral responsibility for your choice just because your choice is inaction.
Everybody has the responsibility to oppose awful things like that if they can, especially if they have the capability to eradicate them completely. Like Reddit does.
No, you can’t generalize it into that vague position. This IS about Reddit. The most you can generalize it to is “establish and run a community” and not to “providing a good or service”. That’s a separate issue altogether. Fork manufacturers shouldn’t be responsible for how people use forks (a good they produce), but they are absolutely responsible for how their employees behave with others while they’re at work (the community the fork manufacturer has established).
Re #17:
Sorry, Reddit (or any other commercial website, social network, whatever) isn’t some jewel left in a fixed state by its sainted programmers. It’s an active, evolving corporate entity, with a target audience. No matter what idealism fed it’s creation, its corporate masters don’t get to look at it and say “There it is. Reddit. Perfect in every detail. Now we must leave it be, lest we diminish its magnificence.”
Management, in any company, sets the tone for the entire operation, and can enforce changes in corporate culture far more easily than entire societies can. By taking no action, or by only acting when public outcry gets loud enough that they see a risk to the bottom line, Reddit clearly reveals their complete lack of any principle beyond the quest to maximize profits.
Then you argue from a position of moral bankruptcy, and can and will be criticized for that moral failure. There is no excuse for an unhealthy community.
To all those who defend Reddit by saying that not all of it is bad, I would like to put forth a saying from Moravia (which conforms nicely with the essence of PZs previous post on this theme):
“If you have a barrel full of shit and someone adds a spoon of wery fine wine to it, you still have a barrel full of shit. If you have a barrel of wery fine wine and some addsa a spoon of shit to it, you have again a barrel full of shit.”
Analogy with internet commuities is almost perfect.
remyporter, #17
We all acknowledge they’re the main problem.
But why are you ignoring the co-villains? The ones who say, “Here’s a place where we allow you shitheads to glorify and encourage violence and rape.”
remyporter #17
I note you bundle goods and services together.
There’s a big difference between providing goods, which are then taken away from any possibility of control by you, and the subsequent use of which you do not see, and providing a platform-and-storage service, where you are aware of and have the ability to control the use to which it’s being put.
If I sell you a can of weedkiller and you leave my store with it, then yes: I cannot then be held responsible if you poison someone with it.
If I offer you a weedkilling service and you say to me “Just ignore me while I pop some in Grandma’s coffee please,” then damn right I’m co-responsible if I acquiesce.
There’s nothing that will make you stop defending Reddit, is there, boys? Nothing. At all. I’m firmly convinced a subreddit could host a live feed of rape and torture and you’d still be here finding ways to express how unfair it is to expect Reddit the company to lift a finger against the worst obscenities imaginable.
Fap on.
Do I get to simply choose to take responsibility for my own actions, and if I don’t make such a choice I can claim to not be responsible for what happens as a result? Or do only corporate entities have this miraculous superpower?
The word is “bias.” Sympathy is something completely different.
So they didn’t choose anything. They completely ignored it, were confused by it; or ooh, even better, they couldn’t have done anything anyway because all of the relevant actions are supposedly “impossible.” Even though they clearly aren’t.
This is not supererogatory. I doubt you even know what that means, but you’re more than willing to blather on about the concept as if you do.
They have responsibilities to the society that they live in, profit from, and in which they create goods/services people are going to use. (They also have an interest in their own society, not just their shareholders, whether they know or not.,) This is one of those responsibilities. Like a weapons manufacturer selling their shit to criminals (or if you want it even more abstract, a bank holding their assets), they are indeed responsible for the deaths caused by their customers, as well as any other thing that is a result of their business practices. They’re not “solely” responsible, or “directly” responsible; but they share in the responsibility. They should not do that shit, just because they can or because it’s (maybe only temporarily) profitable or because they want to believe they can offer a certain kind of “freedom.”
I agree completely. And then I would say that they clearly have failed to build a healthy community. Therefore, why should I support an unhealthy community in any way?
remyporter:
Yes, it does, because that is what Reddit hides behind anytime someone brings up the vile shit overflowing sub-Reddits.
Reddit is not providing goods. They are providing a service, a platform. And yes, they damn well are responsible for how that service is used. You’re sounding suspiciously libertarian here.
The problem is not with their user base – it’s stuffed, in case you haven’t noticed. One of the reasons it is stuffed is because people can do things like The valiant defenders of PhilosophyOfRape / RapingWomen / BeatingWomen2 / HotRapeStories / ChokeABitch/ CuteFemaleCorpses / WatchPeopleDie / GreatApes and more. Reddit is not a fucking puppy who piddled on the carpet, and they don’t need a hug and pee pads. They are fully aware of what they are doing, and they don’t see any problem with it. From Reddit management’s own mouth: “Sorry, but we don’t really ban for rape threats.”
You should support an unhealthy community, because you choose not to take responsibility for it. Obviously.
But no kudos for you!
Social problems are not “impossible to solve.” Be accurate in what you mean: “We’ve decided it’s too costly to oppose horrendous, violent, and obscene behavior. We’ll therefore treat those human actions as though they were acts of god that we cannot contain.”
Stop doing this right now.
“See how Timmy plays with Lassie? See how nice it is that they share? Don’t you want to be more like Timmy and Lassy?”
That’ll make ’em less rapey.
remyporter:
Oh, and this? Well, right now I’m feeling that there isn’t enough fuck in the universe for you to fuck off with, because you want to handwave things like racism and misogyny as confusing and impossible to solve. It’s obviously possible to educate people, and it’s obviously possible to address and solve social problems. In order to do that, however, one must first give a shit about such problems, and not provide a platform for assholes who look to violate social norms in every way possible, and beyond that, to actively do harm.
Josh:
It’s bound to work – I’m sure with adequate pets, biscuits, and pee pads, PhilosophyOfRape will magically turn into RapeCulture101Education.
I actually think that Reddit does have a responsibility to build a healthy community because communities do not stand in isolation. Communities export their behaviors because of implicit unconscious memory processes that allow us to use new behavior in many contexts. Communities are full of human beings interacting and building up behavior routines as well as creating new ones. Providing a place for racists, sexists, misogynists, rape and murder apologists, criminals (the ones sharing stolen pictures who are in some of the other categories as well), and more to have camaraderie and society affects me when the behavior gets exported around the web. Just how do you think human culture changes anyway?
Reddit or 4chan authorities may not choose to take responsibility but that choice has consequences that they are responsible for, including shaming and criticism by us. It’s not about responsibility for how a good or service is used, it’s about responsibility for how a good or service is used after they discover there is a problem with it. Go look at the first post on Reddit PZ posted today. Specifically the example in PZ’s OP and comments by psycholist posted in #9, and Pteryxx in 58, 61, and 65. That is cultural evolution of a sort that matters.
I’m finding it disturbing that you can create some empathy for the people that created Reddit, but can’t seem to muster up as much empathy for people dealing with bands of rampaging racists and misogynists. Your choices in who to criticize in this situation make that clear. Rest assured that if you were to ever create a product that caused damage by its use and you were similarly apathetic and negligent in dealing with how it was used I would be just as critical of you, of people using the product and not speaking out on the harmful use, and any analogs to community admin and moderators. I have my own role in cultural evolution to worry about.
Dammit, my #35 was directed at remyporter‘s #17
Also from Mammoth’s comments: (link)
And as the r/blackladies mod being shadowbanned demonstrates (see comments noted in Brony’s #35 above, with thanks) the Reddit mods enforce their bans disproportionately to the bigots’ favor.
I’m sort of in the middle here.
On one hand I think that calling for unilateral invective towards every person who uses Reddit (or 4Chan for that matter) no matter for what reason or for what purpose is way more extreme than I can endorse. The fact is there’s plenty of good information and discussion in regards to various hobbies that isn’t available elsewhere on the web.
On the other hand the last thread had some very telling examples that Reddit’s administration comes down far more on the side of Racists, Sexists, and Bigots of all other stripes. That Pro-Civil Rights Subreddit Admins who complained of an invasion of hateful people got banned for “Disrupting the culture” shows that Reddit is not so tacitly endorsing the awfullest of the subreddits. The end to Child Porn on Reddit a few years back came only because of a major concerted campaign from SomethingAwful and elsewhere, Reddit had to be dragged kicking and screaming into decency on this smallest of points.
Basically as bad as Reddit is I can’t get behind universally tarring every single person who uses it.
Pteryxx:
Pretty much says it all. I know that they supposedly banned the child porn groups, but given that creepshots rebounded, I’m wondering.
But, but, /r/Yogscast is the only place online to find information about video games. I’d like to help with the social justice, I really would, but Minecraft talk > rape tips.
Reddit owns the servers, right? They run the webservices and the front end interface that allows the submission of links and comments and structure of subreddits, right? The link URLs (if not the targets) are on their servers, right? The comments are on their servers, right? Every subreddit’s URL starts with reddit.com, right? I’m not about to support, or quietly accept, a private company that has on their servers, under their domain, the subfolders: PhilosophyOfRape / RapingWomen / BeatingWomen2 / HotRapeStories / ChokeABitch/ CuteFemaleCorpses / WatchPeopleDie / GreatApes with all the content therein.
They’re not the internet. T vhey’re one company hosting hate on its servers for profit. Do they have a responsibility? If they want to be a respected and ethical company that gets my business? Yes.
Omnicrom:
It’s a good think no one has done that, then. I do think it’s time for the good people to make a choice – are you going to keep on supporting people who condone and commit rape? Are you going to keep supporting racists, and misogynists of all kinds? Defenses being offered up are incredibly weak.
Invective is a bridge too far? Seriously? If Reddit users who aren’t flaming racist wannabe rapists are okay using Reddit despite it happily providing a platform for those people, and actively running off people who challenge bigotry, then I think the least they can do is endure some mean words in exchange for the convenience of being able to access whatever content they want alongside the people inciting hate crimes.
You’re wrong on this issue, PZ. I can prove it with a myriad of mutually contradictory reasons that mostly don’t address what you said. Because poop is brain food.
Anthony K:
Yeah. I got that horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, seeing that, and people were damn nice about it, given that it was a member of our tribe, and still, what’s more important? Games.
@remyporter
Reddit are willing to ban people for speaking out against people who actually advocate for rape, but not the people who actually advocate for rape.
They have taken a stance. They are not neutral providers of a service. They are opposing the opposition of the promotion of rape… is there a way that this can be defended as anything other than a defence of the promotion of rape? Any way that this doesn’t count as endorsement?
@SallyStrange #43: Or they could ignore the invective in the same way they ignore the parts of Reddit being discussed, and want everyone else to ignore them as well.
Well, I would boycoott, ’cause I’m pro-gay-rights an’ all, but damnit, no one does nuggets like Chick fil A’s.
</snark>
@ omnicrom
I don’t think unilateral invective is a fair characterization. I’m certainly not talking about characterizing users of Reddit and 4chan as being entirely aweful human beings as bad as the rampaging racists and misogynists. I’m talking about saying they are bad people on specific issues due to apathy in allowing shitty things to occur without any comment or action.
That good discussion is simply not of enough moral and ethical value to be fairly complained about in comparison. I wish there was a well moderated version of 4chan that lacked all that shitty behavior. I used to use an imageboard and I rather miss being able to post pictures with everything but it’s simply not worth the social sewage.
Now this is interesting. Moot (the founder of 4chan) started 4chan after being banned from SomethingAwful. I don’t know a lot about the back story but I wonder if SomethingAwful grew up and matured as a community in relevant ways. Or something else is going on and the pattern means nothing.
Me #48
boycoott?
Naked Bunny with a Whip:
*Gasp* You, you…want people to pay attention to something other than the fucks on Pharyngula? Heresy.
To expand my #49 a bit,
In fact I think group-shaming requires believing that the people being shamed are in fact better than the ones being overwhelmingly shitty. Otherwise the attempt would not really be reasonable.
Daz:
Boycoott: A boycott which does not require principles.
@Iyeska, flos mali #51: I’ve already forgotten there’s a world outside this very thread!
When I go to Hobby Lobby, I skip the Christian dominionist aisles and head straight for the yarn. And need I even say that when I put my $20 bucks in the collection plate at Sunday mass, I do so for the bread and the wine, not the anti-woman policies and the pedophilia cover-up.
I was thumbing through my copy of Racist Monthly (I buy it for the gardening tips on page five, you know)…
@55
I think a certain joking threshold might have been reached.
I remember a post+comments about Hobby Lobby and art and crafting supplies, and a regular …
Anthony K:
This is a good illustration, for me. Where I live, the only place within a reasonable distance (around 67 miles) for art supplies is Hobby Lobby. Every once in a while, I’m in need of emergency supplies. Even though this doesn’t happen often, I hated going to HL for anything. After they won, I made the decision that I could not support them at all, no matter what. This has an impact on how I make my living, and it was not an easy decision. Unfortunately, I can’t stock up on every single thing I might need. Waiting for online orders doesn’t effect my work for gallery shows much, but I have a lot of private clients. So, I had to talk with clients – I had to up my prices a bit to cover online ordering costs, and I had to explain that delays might take place due to the need to wait on an online order. I took a serious hit there, because more than a few clients of mine were on HL’s side of things. That hurt. And while I’m recovering from it now, it will probably always sting. Sometimes, you have to do something you really don’t want to do. I could have continued to go to HL once in a freaking while, and just kept my mouth shut when discussion came up, but principles should mean something. Principles should mean that you are able to face your fear of losing something, to gain a greater thing.
SomethingAwful is a pretty good forum for something with a name like that in part because they have a very active group of moderators who are in favor of not being shit. Saying Racist and Sexist stuff on the SA forums is a great way to be shown the door, the cost to register or re-register an account cleans out a lot of the natural chaff of the internet, and the mods are very good at enforcing the “One account per person” rule so even a rich bastard couldn’t spam the way they like.
Iyeska @42
Sallystrange @43
Sally’s post is what I meant, Iyeska, when I talked about tarring reddit users.
soogeeoh:
Yeah, see #58. Don’t go saying shit like this about me – I’m willing to act on my principles, even when it fucking hurts, and I don’t need any of the commentariat curbing their posts on my behalf. I trust that’s clear.
Not incidentally, this also means that when you buy artwork from Iyeska, you are not supporting Hobby Lobby at all. Some may see that as a positive.
Omnicrom @ 59:
No, I don’t think it is. I think it would be more impressive if you actually answered SallyStrange, because all I’m seeing is weak tea of #notallredditusers, and if that shit doesn’t fly for sexist or racist idiocy, I don’t see why it should fly for Reddit.
Yeah you’re right.
Pteryxx:
I got one helluva a shock over how many didn’t. That can be filed under things you never wanted to know about your clients.
@60
You were very defensive at the time
@58: thanks, Iyeska. I posted my comment and then only after remembered what a robust knitting and artist community exists here. I did not intend to single you or others out in my analogy, but your response illustrated the issue better than I ever could. I’m so sorry you had to take such an income hit for standing for your principles.
soogeeoh @ 65:
My nym is not a number.
Actually, I was pretty fucking angry at the time, soogeeoh, being lectured by assholes who aren’t artists, and assholes who had hobbies of painting miniatures. This is how I make my fucking living, and I have these things called deadlines, and gosh, life isn’t perfect, so shit happens, and once in a godsdamn fucking while I need something, stat, so I can get paid.
You can fuck right off, tossing that shit comment at me, after reading #58. I suggest you now count all the fucks and other naughty words in this comment, so you have something to focus on while you ignore everything else, and tell yourself you’re a right class act.
Omnicrom: At this point, I really have to wonder about the accuracy of the claim that the info/discussion that is of merit on 4chan or Reddit “isn’t available elsewhere on the web”. It’s a fairly strong claim to make. Some individual posts obviously are not available, but those COULD be done on other platforms just as easily.
And if you profit, fairly directly, from lawbreaking, then yes, you have crossed the line. The Fappening was nothing but illegal, from the get-go, breaking numerous laws. Reddit got advertising dollars–fairly major ones–due to the extra traffic driven to the site. At the barest of minimums, I’d say the women who were targeted should be awarded that money directly, with a suitable multiplier as punitive damages. And what I’d really like is for the folks in charge of Reddit to see jail time for it.
Iyeska @67
Whether you believe it or not you have my sympathies for having crap like that dredged up.
Anthony K:
Oh, your comment didn’t bother me, it’s a tough issue for a lot of people, whether it’s HL or Reddit. And thank you, I appreciate the condolences.
soogeeoh
What would it take to get you to use commenter’s nyms rather than comment numbers?
Omnicrom @ 69:
Of course I believe you, and thank you.
@ omnicrom
Re: SomethingAweful
That is interesting. Thanks for the info.
Do you by any chance have any links related to how SomethingAweful moderates in real world terms? I can look up their policies myself but I’m thinking more in terms of examples of this in action. I used to visit the main site for some of the humor, but I have never been one for extended community contact until the last couple of years.
There was an interesting thread on Twitter involving Ta-Nehisi Coates regarding the NFL. Basically someone asked Coates if he was a terrible person for still playing fantasy football, to which Coates responded, no. There are lots of moral and ethical shades of gray and there are so many things going on in the world that all of us are probably on some level supporting financially , perhaps unknowingly, and it can be impossible to follow that path to the end. Even if you know about some of the bad things that you’re indirectly supporting, it’s not always your job to boycott everything. Coates’ example was his own meat consumption. [End paraphrase].
But it extends to HL, Bad Chicken, and Reddit. We all have to decide how far we’re willing to go for our principles and what offenses are unpardonable and require action. You can even speak out against a company’s practices while still patronizing that company. It’s not the strongest stance you could take, but we all do what we can, when we can. I now drive a car, mainly because it’s convenient. I know I’m doing serious damage to the environment, so I ameliorate it by trying to use it less and having the most fuel efficient car I can afford. But I’ve got a kid in preschool on one side of town, a kid in elementary school on my side of town, and I work downtown. Attempting to handle my obligations by bus would take hours, attempting to do it by bike would be: A. a death wish and B. simply not possible given my level of fitness. So a fuel efficient car is my compromise.
We all do what we can, when we can. Somehow, Coates covered all of this better in a couple of tweets than I did in those paragraphs. Maybe it was just the moral weight of coming from him.
freemage @68
QFT
PROFIT! Bloggers might not make a lot of money from hits. But reddit does – we’re talking 800000 hits on one subreddit alone last month. Anyone who wants to run the feeble freeze peach line should think about the choices made by reddit in order to make the $$$$$s it does from letting things run the way they do.
If anyone could prove to them that they’d make more money by doing things differently, they’d do it in a heartbeat. Commitment to their so-called principles would evaporate like a puddle on an outback road in the Australian summer. And freeze peach would melt right along side it.
freemage #68:
From reading about the r/blackladies situation, I gather that what’s unique about Reddit isn’t the information but the community-building tools. Anyone can found a reddit page and collect moderators with a basic set of tools to moderate their own space as they see fit. And community moderation is a *resource*, a very valuable resource that’s required for fostering any sort of discussion space prone to pushback. Futrelle and PZ have both had to enlist regular commenters to help curate their spaces. Last year I saw that John Scalzi turns off comments at night so he can get some sleep. Melissa McEwan at Shakesville gets so much hate that her moderators regularly close threads and take breaks to protect themselves. (I expect most of us Horde regulars would really be hurting if PZ ever had to turn off *all* commenting for a sanity break.) Protecting an online community has real costs.
…Which means that Reddit’s promise to provide *top-level* moderation, such as banning users who incite or participate in raiding other subreddits, is probably one of their biggest draws. The r/blackladies mods said they *cannot* ban the users who kept stirring up hateswarms to flood their community, and when they appealed to Reddit mods to stop them, well, look what happened.
The best way is to take a look at the Leper’s Colony, the SomethingAwful ban/probation list. You’ll find a lot of entries of people getting banned from the garbage boards, but you’ll also find more than a few people in the forums proper getting banned for calling people “Subhuman trash”, for racism/sexism/pedophilia, and for generally being awful human beings.
If anyone’s interested, Ta-Nehisi Coates’ comments began with this tweet: https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/516681500029648897
What’s a good way to share a stream of tweets without signing up for a Storify account? Is there one?
gussnarp:
…Screenshots compiled into images? Really, that or copying into plaintext, or embedding individual tweets. (Storify, so annoying.)
@ omnicrom
Now that can be an effective tool for shaping community behavior. A “wall of shame”. Examples stored in one place are certainly things I have used.
chigau (違う) @ 71
Nothing.
Sorry Anthony K, sorry Iyeska, flos mali.
[it was … loosely, about measures of familiarity/intimacy, and feeling fake at the time if I used nyms, nothing important, and then I felt committed. BTW I don’t care about “fuck”.]
I understand the defense of reddit with regard to just providing a service and not responsible for how it is used. I do have a question though. We have no problem with regulating banking and other financial services with regard to how and for whom they can supply services with reporting certain kinds of transactions how or why should reddit be considered any different. They are by providing services enabling these groups to pursue and facilitate criminal activity while we prohibit financial institutions from engaging in activities that have the same kinds of results things like money laundering, we flag suspicious transactions.?
uncle frogy
Iyeska, flos mali
I remember that. It was fucking awful. I’m sorry it was dredged up and thrown in your face. I commend you for that sacrifice you made and am so glad you’ll recover from the financial hit. I wouldn’t hold using Hobby Lobby in emergencies to make a living against you at all, if you ever have to return to doing so.
Shit like that makes me extremely angry because oppressed people do not have the luxury of ethics a lot of the time. For instance, I hate Wal-Mart because of its policies yet cannot boycott them because it’s the only place I can get groceries currently. My roommate even worked there for a bit because we needed the money. That’s just the reality of surviving, which few seem to grok. (Speaking generally, not about here specifically.)
This fact makes it so much more grating to me when people complain about boycotting frivolities for enjoyment only like a website, author, or fast food joint that support bigotry. Some cannot boycott companies and places like churches providing charity so people do what they have to in order to survive and sometimes fake respect becomes real faith since no one else is there to help.
But online? With people who can go elsewhere and support other places and things with real money? That rankles more than just a little bit to have protests of “But I can’t!” when you damn well could, you just don’t want to because it’s convenient. Because you want the easy way out. “But I’m heard here by gaming people, I matter there!” Good for you, trade your cushy spot on the backs of women, POC and other minorities. But don’t fucking pretend you’re doing anything other than that or it’s the same thing as supporting something you hate in order to feed your kid or support your family. It fucking sucks and hurts so much when you have to make those sacrifices. I have little power in meatspace but I’ll be damned if I’m willing exploited for bigots and rapists benefit online.
The non-predators and bigots of Reddit are being used by Reddit for legitimacy and profit. They’re a shield and here we have several willinging jumping into the line of fire to protect the problem users and owners of Reddit from consequences. It’s clear what it takes to get Reddit to do something about child porn, ffs. Do you really think just calling out specific threads over and over, only to respawn later with a different name to pass inspection will do any good? It’s way past time to vote with your feet and stop making them fucking money already.
We know the bigots and shit aren’t going to change and will hollow out other places but their places don’t have to be subsidized by you. Staying there while knowing how they operate and what content they approve of, you’re basically saying “I’ll accept this as long as I get mine.”
Reddit will either learn the lesson when they lose visitors thus revenue or a new place will be found to build communities with the only unique aspect: moderator tools.Without supporting rapists, bigots, criminals, and their defenders.
There’s always other places to go online, the only restrictions are your own.* In meatspace, there’s only so much you can do and there’s consequences that you sometimes can’t afford. But online you can build the world you want, surround yourself with awesome media and feminists and activists who support the same ideas where it’s not a given that sexism, racism and shit are okay, instead of accepting the status quo.
Why go to places like Reddit when you can do that and so much more with the freedom of the Internet? Why shield them instead of their victims where your privilege can actually do some good? Why render yourself powerless when you have such a great tool at your fingertips? That’s what I do anyways but what do I know. Clearly, my optimism hasn’t completely died out from finding support and safe places online where I can’t in meatspace. I’m sure that’ll change soon enough.
——————
*Currently, time will tell with Net Neutrality and shit. Places where governments restrict the internet obviously exempt.
…I don’t understand what contorted path of logic you took to arrive at that conclusion. The question, the rhetorical question, is whether the top level of Reddit has a responsibility to stop people advocating for crimes on Reddit webspace.
I think a lot of commenters need to read this. And read it again.
Read it a third time if you are still having difficulty understanding it.
So, Omnicron, where do you stand? Is it reasonable to expect Reddit users to have to endure criticism in exchange for accessing their preferred content on a platform that caters to rapists and bigots? Or is my comment still an example of “tarring” Reddit users unfairly?
Iyeska,
I really admire what you did out of principle. It must have been very difficult. I make my living writing novels and have been unable to compromise my craft in such a way that I would make more money (by writing a more popular kind of book), but now I’ve gotten to a point where I can’t write the kinds of books (romance novels) I’ve been writing for 20+ years because of reader expectations my feminism will no longer enable me to meet. (For instance, I am constantly worrying–is my hero too “beta?” Is my heroine too much stronger than he is? Do I have enough sex?) I am trying to start a fantasy career, but have no idea if I’ll ever sell another novel.
If I were in your position, I would find it incredibly difficult. I live in a city large enough that I have options if I need art supplies (though I haven’t had time to do art for years), so I have the luxury of avoiding the Hobby Lobby very near my house. I boycott WalMart, but again, there are countless alternatives here in Albuquerque.
Anyway, I visited your web page, but am not sure what kinds of work you sell. What kind of work do you do, besides photography? What kind of embroidery? Do you have a gallery of other work, and what kinds of commissions do you do?
Re: Reddit, I think I read that Snoop Dog and Jared Leto have invested in Reddit. Does that mean they intend to change things? Or do we now consign them to the asshat category?
In fairness to Kevin, they did note that they are sending a note to the moderators of Yogscraft about changing hosting, and abandoning the community if a move in that direction wasn’t made.
Gussnarp and JAL’s comments (about cars and walmart), are actually a perfect example of why Reddit does need to do something as a whole (and also why America does, but I’ll probably transfer that part to the Tdome because it could go on for a while): because there’s actually a sharp limit to what individuals can actually do when a whole system is biased in some fashion, other than agitate for systemic change. For the most part, the saying “You can’t fight the system” is literally true; an individual is liable to get rolled over. What needs to happen, and what activists fight for, is a change in the system, and/or a replacement system. So, either Reddit’s top moderators need to get it together, there need to be different top moderators, or Reddit needs to be replaced with an equivalent system that does have proper moderation. There’s really no other way.
They’re now responsible to some big investors. A healthy community is a profitable one. A healthy community gets fewer FBI investigations, lawsuits, and bad press. A healthy community supports users who have even more disposable income than college-age people. They’d be stupid to lose momentum and continue on the path of disintegrating into 4chan 2.0. There is a way to balance profitability (not to make anyone filthy rich, though it likely will, but to stay afloat and add functionality) with preserving the community that these investors have put significant money into. Yes, they have that responsibility.
Sallystrange @86
I conceded from this argument at post 63. I no longer wish to discuss it.
Reddit’s administrators obviously should be handling these things differently, but I think it’s a little bit important to actually have some understanding of what Reddit is as a whole.
I don’t get the impression that the people here who are criticizing Reddit have ever really visited Reddit, and are building their impression of it from the disgusting subreddits they hear about, and from blog posts criticizing the moderators. These are, of course, serious issues, but I get the impression that people here seem to think Reddit is basically 4chan with slightly less issues.
What they need to remember is that it’s quite possible to use Reddit extensively, and have no idea that they exist. There are plenty of people who use the site for all kinds of benign news and small communities, and not encounter any of this.
When criticizing Reddit, it’s not going to help to act like anyone who goes there is complicit in promoting rape. While there are issues with comparing Reddit to the entire internet from an administration perspective, it really is a reasonable analogy when you look at it from the user’s perspective.
There are many wonderful subreddits dedicated to issues such as feminism (and the fact that /r/feminism has its issues isn’t really relevant… there are *dozens* of better subreddits).
This is not a defence of the people running Reddit. Pressure should be put on them… but remember that plenty of users (probably most) are completely unaware that the most vile subreddits even exist. On top of that, there are also subreddits dedicated to fighting and criticizing the problematic subreddits, some of which have been around since before the light was shone on the most disgusting corners of Reddit.
Basically, the points about the approach the admins are taking are valid, but when they come from people who seem to be completely unfamiliar with Reddit. I’ve even seen a few posts from people who seem to be under the impression that subreddits are paid-for hosted sites… they aren’t, they’re automatically created, for free, as soon as you visit the URL. Anyone could create dozens of racist and sexist subreddits in a manner of seconds.
It’s good to let people who use reddit know that these subreddits exist, and that pressure needs to be put on the admins to actually take a more active stance in dealing with them, but it’s important to recognize just how large Reddit is. It’s not like 4chan, which caters to a very specific subculture. Reddit does allow the 4chan types to do what they do, uninterrupted… but it’s also large enough that it’s easy to use Reddit, and never encounter the really nasty bits.
@iankoro, 92
That’s a fair point. I’ve seen a lot of responses that suggest exactly that when they finally stumble over the more revolting corners of reddit.
That said, has anyone suggested we hold people who are unaware as responsible as those who are aware and don’t care enough to do anything about it?
That said, has anyone suggested we hold people who are unaware as responsible as those who are aware and don’t care enough to do anything about it?
Not specifically, but there are critics who seem unaware of what Reddit is really like, in general. SallyStrange, in #43, however, did say:
If Reddit users who aren’t flaming racist wannabe rapists are okay using Reddit despite it happily providing a platform for those people, and actively running off people who challenge bigotry, then I think the least they can do is endure some mean words in exchange for the convenience of being able to access whatever content they want alongside the people inciting hate crimes.
Having to endure “mean words” certainly isn’t an enormous burden, but the more reasonable thing to do is to focus on the issue itself. The people who need to be taken to task are the admins, and, of course, the horrible people behind the nasty bits. Ideally, you want the decent people who use Reddit to get on the reasonable side of the issue, and lobbing “mean words” at them, or telling them they need to abandon the (often quite decent) internet communities they are a part of, or face being lumped in with rape promoters probably isn’t going to do that. The better approach would be to inform them of the issues, and maybe ask that they bring the issue up with the more reasonable subreddits that they are a part of.
I think it’s best not to slander all of Reddit as a cesspit that needs to be shutdown, but as an open community whose excessive permissiveness has allowed for a horrible element to settle in. Reddit is corporately owned now, and if we want to see change happen, the best way is to get the decent people in the community to put pressure on the admins.
Oops… I misused the tags, and accidentally clicked “Post” before “Preview”. The first and third paragraphs were meant to be cited from others.
iankoro
Well, duh. So fucking what?
Well fuck their perspective, it’s ignorant and blinded by privilege. The victims don’t have that and aren’t harmed any less just because the majority don’t see it. I don’t give a fuck if it makes them uncomfortable, I’m not going to minimize the harm they’ve allowed and benefitted from so they don’t get their fee-fees hurt.
And the people don’t give a shit about the “nasty bits”. Or think it’s “free speech” or “it’s their site, don’t tell ’em how to run it”. And the people that go there thus fueling Reddit’s bigot and rapist haven making them complicit whether they know it or not. Ignorance about where you’re spending your time and money doesn’t make the money magically not fund unethical behavior like sweat shops, Wal-Mart, Hobby Lobby, and Reddit. Visiting their site reinforces their behavior and gives the nasty bits a cushy platform.
Well, if they stay in their Reddit communities, they are supporting a company that defends hate crimes, criminal behavior (up-skirt shots, etc), and bigots and gives them space to spew and promote it. That’s called fucking reality. If they don’t like how they share space with those people funded by all of them, they should fucking leave.
Maybe ask? Christ on a stick.
Yeah, go lecture r/blackladies how respectability politics will get Reddit to listen to them and stop banning their mods that speak up. That’ll work. /snort
You could actually say the same exact thing about 4chan. There were people defending 4chan as “not a total cesspit, have you been there?” too. Huh.
Yes, and decent people would do that no matter how the fuck I say it. If they whine about mean words instead of doing something, then they’re using it as an excuse and don’t really give a shit. Say it nicely and they’ll find some other reason. Or the tone won’t matter and they’ll do it anyways.
As for the rest of your tone trolling bullshit, go fucking persuade people using your way all the fuck you want. No one’s going to stop you or say you’re doing it wrong. Whining about my tone isn’t going to do shit. Because I don’t fucking buy it. Most people don’t give a shit about social justice. We’ve seen the backlash feminists receive no matter how nicely they put it because people don’t want to see it. It doesn’t affect them so why bother. The status quo is comfy for them so stop rocking the boat. They want you quiet so they can ignore you.
Besides all that? I’m not wrong and your appeal boils down to “I don’t like the way you say things because I believe in the folk wisdom of “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”. I don’t give a fuck if they like me or my tone. They can fuck right off, starting with you.
I’ll just post the same thing I say to Christians who complain that mean ol’ atheists are attacking them: If you want to set the tone for the debate, you have to do a better job at policing your own. If you do not, and leave it to outsiders (i.e. us), then they’ll set whatever tone they prefer, and you should not be surprised when it uses terms that reflect poorly on you as well as those doing the misbehaving.
Gee, non-pology 101. And we know how it doesn’t work, which is more important than pretending it does.
Back during the ‘Nam war/civil rights protests, there was a slogan; “You are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem”. Anybody not taking down rape instructions is promoting rape. They are part of the problem. Period, end of story. Why aren’t you acknowledging that fact?
If they should be aware, and aren’t, they are equivalent to knowing about the problem. Wearing blinders is not a defense against abetting rape, racism, or misogyny. It is simply an asshole avoidance mechanism to do their job properly.
iankoro:
Sophisticated Redditology.
The apologetics couldn’t be more blatant.
Yeah, basically. Just 4chan watered down. I think of it as meeting Youtube and 4chan halfway. I suppose you only resist the notion because you yourself don’t have an accurate impression of 4chan. Whoops.
And? It rots from the head. The people in charge let that shit exist. The users of the more toxic subreddits flow to other subreddits. The ability to be ignorant of other subreddits proves nothing. It’s like saying if FTB hosted a blogger who was a straight up KKK member and saying that it doesn’t matter because we can all be blissfully ignorant of his blog’s existence and its just a link in the sidebar. No, we are providing him with a platform and to a degree we are pooling audiences with him. That is not ethically neutral.
lolwut? It actually sounds pretty damn relevant. It sounds like a SYMPTOM.
They are ignorant of how odious Reddit can be. Which you admit it can be. Which we are trying to educate people about. What’s the problem?
Paid for hosted sites….who? Who was under that impression?
Fucking seriously? The 4chan defenders say the same exact thing.
Read up on Accomodationism, sometime. This is probably the most unintentionally hilarious place to make that asinine argument.
I kind of just see that as splitting hairs. “It’s not a toxic waste dump! It is a nice field that happens to have an area where toxic waste is disposed.” See also: the title of PZ’s original post on the matter.
Iyeska, Flos Mali @ 58
It is soooo gooood and so rare to find someone who is really and truly willing to live according to what they believe.
iankoro, #92
It’s actually completely irrelevant to understand what Reddit is as a whole. All one needs to know is that there exist people who easily can fix this problem but aren’t fixing it. Since we know that, that’s all we’re going to focus on.
This is like defending a state not allowing same-sex marriage by saying, “They should be doing things differently, but we need to understand the political and legal structure of the that state as a whole.” There are people who can immediately end those subreddits just like there are people in that state who can immediately render same-sex marriages legal.
Why aren’t they doing it? Like now, I mean. Just do it now. I don’t give a fuck about Reddit as a whole.
Saad wrote:
Oh, it’s way worse than that. They’ve justified not fixing it. Corporate indifference is one thing, and that alone would be bad enough, but providing justifications for why you’re not doing anything is tacitly endorsing the awful shit.
@Nerd of Redhead, 98
Not everybody should be aware, though. Well… everybody should be aware, but not everybody uses sites like reddit in such a way that they would encounter these things. Back when I still sapped my emotional wellbeing on that site, I saw a lot of people stumble over /amr and react with shock at what was being brought to light.
That said, by the time people are coming across subs like /amr or being directly criticised for their support of reddit, they really don’t have any excuse for making present tense claims of ignorance, and any defensive response would then put them on pretty much the same level as those who are aware but don’t care so… I guess it’s not too important if we hold them equally responsible or not, since by the time they’re aware of our opinion of them, they either will be worthy of it, or will agree.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. I meant all the monitors and administrators of Redditt who who burying their heads in the sand to avoid taking action against clearly racits/sexist/homophobic bigotry. I didn’t mean casual users per se, until they get an idea of what is actually not just tolerated, but encouraged.
Righto, yeah, my original comment was aimed squarely at casual users. Obviously mods and admins have precisely zero excuses for being unaware of what’s going on, owing to their position.
Sueinnm @ 87, I’ll have a ‘for sale’ online thing going next year, and I’ll be advertising it!
Chimera @ 100, thank you.
Iyeska @9:
I hadn’t read about the PhilosophyOfRape until your comment. Holy fuck. That shit turns my stomach. The misogyny is off the fucking charts.
****
JAL @83:
Well said!
****
David M @84:
Like Josh @85, I think many people need to read this and comprehend it.
There are people at Reddit who use that platform to explain how to get away with raping women.
If you’re someone who defends Reddit from criticism about the shitty people they allow to use their platform, get the fuck away from me, and I hope I never interact with you-you’re a shitty person.
****
iankoro @92:
What is the basis for this impression, given that you probably don’t know much about how people in this thread spend their time?
Fine. When you view Reddit as a whole, one of the many things it does is grant the scum of the earth a place to spew their bigotry and instruct others in how to commit crimes. Happy?
If you’re not defending them, then why are you bringing up all this unimportant shit? The problem is that Reddit provides a platform for people to engage in horrible bigotry and discuss how to commit crimes. If you bring up unrelated subjects you’re changing the discussion and that shit is not welcome. And yes, talking about other subreddits and how they can be good is a distraction bc the good threads are not the point.
I think it would be a good idea for you to stop making assumptions about the commentariat.
[Off Topic]
In the future, can you please use people’s nyms when responding? It’s a polite courtesy. Using the nym and comment number is even better.
Also, if you’re going to quote people, please use the ‘blockquote’ function:
<blockquote> place quoted text here </blockquote> produces
Tony! The Queer Shoop@107:
Furtherly off-topic: If anyone is so inclined, check out my Greasemonkey user script that adds a reply button to comments. I’m not sure if there’s any particular reason this functionality isn’t provided on FreeThoughtBlogs by default, but they’re welcome to use it if people find it helpful.
I’ve been a Redditor longer than I’ve read Pharyngula, I’m pretty sure. I’ve been a “Gold” member since the program’s inception. /r/atheism was a non-trivial influence on me (pretty sure I found PZ via /r/atheism, in fact), as was /r/fitness, and /r/programming and related subreddits have been interesting sources of knowledge. I haven’t been active there for a while, but it was, for me, a great resource, for several years.
This and the previous article on Reddit, and the comments and discussion thereafter, well, they were an eye-opener.
I’ve cancelled my Reddit Gold subscription.
For what it’s worth, /r/PhilosophyOfRape appears to be undergoing active maintenance as I type. I looked at it earlier today, after reading these articles from PZ in my RSS feed, and now it looks quite a bit different, and has only one post, which is only 13 minutes old.
… or it did when I started typing that sentence. Now there are many, again. Apparently going back to its inception. So, yeah, active maintenance.