Wow! I haven’t been sent so much hate mail since I mangled a cracker. It seems that one of the great American holies is celebrity culture: don’t you dare say anything that comes across as callous about a beloved comedian. My favorite so far was an email that accused me of being a “Jew ghoul”, and then went into detail about the autopsy report because it showed that Robin Williams “suffered like Christ.” That’s the problem, really: it’s fine that you liked and respected the man — I did, too — but the obsessive fascination of our media with every detail of a celebrity’s pain is disturbing. There are helicopters flying over Williams’ house and media vans parked outside it, as if something important will happen there any time, while Ferguson, Missouri is under a police-ordered blackout. There are other celebrities lining up in front of cameras to talk about how wonderful Robin Williams was, while police in body armor, carrying shotguns and batons, are lining up to march down the streets of Ferguson. And damn few people seem to be able to see the stark contrast, much less care about it.
Here are a few intelligent comments on the subject. First is carlie.
I am reacting really strongly to this particular subject, I think, because I watched it play out on twitter last night. I follow a lot of people who are really up on the news as it happens, and the juxtaposition of people giving heartfelt tributes to Williams, people giving legitimately important information about depression, and people showing the absolute breakdown in Ferguson, was incredibly disconcerting. When you see a tweet that’s a freaking animated picture of a genie hugging Aladdin, and you genuinely tear up over it, and then the next thing you see is a picture taken an hour prior of policemen with dogs and riot gear ganging up on one unarmed young man begging for peace and justice, well, it kind of puts things in perspective in a really stark way.
Unfortunately, where you’ll see the real drama playing out is on twitter, with residents sharing the nightmare. When I just checked CNN, the stories were about the aforementioned Williams autopsy report (WHY? Also, why is Williams insta-autopsied and the full report released to the press, while the official Mike Brown autopsy report is suppressed, so the parents will have to get a second, independent autopsy done?), and a long video of a string of Famous People (Mel freakin’ Gibson!) queuing up to talk about how much they loved Robin Williams. Press priorities, you know.
And here’sTony! The Queer Shoop. You might be able to tell that he’s a little bit angry.
This country is starting to scare me to a greater level than it had before. I live in Florida, home of George Fucking Zimmerman. Do you see my gravatar? I’m a man of color. I’m just they type of person that Zimmerman would probably distrust. I’m just the type of person that the police would probably not be terribly nice to. I’m the kind of person people would be suspicious of. I’m the kind of person who the justice system typically treats horrifically.
For the first time in fucking I don’t know how long, I’ve met a guy who is pretty cool. He lives 10 minutes from me. I’ve been single for so fucking long that I have forgotten what it’s like to date or even be in a relationship. I’d pretty much given up hope of ever having the chance to fall in love with someone.
What does this have to do with this thread?
I don’t have a car.
I walk to his house. Often in the evening.
When I leave at night, IT’S FUCKING AT NIGHT. In fucking Florida. The fucking bible belt. Where they already don’t like black people. Then I’m gay on top of that. And an atheist? That’s a fucking trifecta for some people.
The first night we hung out, I walked home. That was before I knew about Mike Brown. I read about that after I got home that night actually. That kinda freaked me out, but I did the same thing a lot of people in this country did, and treated it like an isolated incident. As I thought about it more, I realized that it’s not isolated. Yes, it’s one incident, but it’s part of something bigger, far worse, and a great deal scarier.
Trayvon Martin was just walking home with skittles and a fucking iced tea. He was killed for nothing, bc of a racist scumbag who should be in prison. I’ve walked to the store at night before. I’ve worn a brightly colored tee shirt, and shorts. I’ve carried my cellphone and wallet at all times. Why? Because in the back of my mind, I have to worry about the possibility that someone will want to shoot me because I’m a person of color. Nevermind that I don’t own a gun, and don’t want to. Nevermind that I’ve never been in a fight in my life. Nevermind that I’m not an aggressive person prone to violence. Nevermind that I have a hard time hurting a roach, let alone another human being. No, nevermind all that. There are people out there that wish I were dead, or would take the opportunity to kill me for nothing.
And you know what? That scares me. That horrifies me. Not so much that it’s going to paralyze me, bc dammit I’m not going to live my life frozen by fear, unable to do anything.
But I should be able to live my life and not worry about the possibility of being shot and killed. I should be able to have the same equal opportunity to go through life with the same possibility of a fulfilling existence as white people.
But I can’t.
I can’t because I was born a different color.
And now, in this country, this land of supposed freedom and equality…this land that says everyone was born equal and free, we have a police state that is brutalizing black people. Young and old. We have a government that looks the other way at this ongoting civil rights travesty. We have media that doesn’t want to even tackle stories like this, and when they do, they treat them like isolated incidents. They don’t treat them like symptoms of a deeper problem…when they even document them.
So that brings us to Mike Brown and Robin Williams. I’ve said it so many fucking times in this thread and I’ll say it again:
I’m sorry Robin Williams died. I’m sorry his family and friends are grieving. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, no matter how much I despise them. I wish our mental healthcare system were significantly better. I wish there were no stigma attached to mental illness. Do you get this people? Do you understand that I’m not minimizing what happened to Robin Williams? I hope to fucking god you do because I’m sick and fucking tired of saying it.
But, compare his death, and how it is treated in the media. Compare that to how black people across this country feel. FOR FUCKS SAKE, COMPARE IT TO WHAT I’VE JUST DESCRIBED.
I’m fucking shaking right now and crying because I can’t believe people have so spectacularly missed the point of this post, and it has really hit home tonight, the third day in a row that I’ve gotten to go on a date with the same guy. He drove me home bc even he realizes that it can be dangerous out there at night for certain people with a certain skin color. I appreciate that he chose to do that, even though I would never ask him to do it. I don’t want to be an imposition on anyone.
Don’t I deserve to be able to walk home at night without the worry of being harassed or worry about facing threats from racist assholes? Doesn’t every black person? Doesn’t every single person who is oppressed or discriminated against?
IF SO, THEN WHY WON’T THE MEDIA GIVE A FUCKING SHIT ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON?
Why is my life…why are the lives of black and brown people across the US..across the planet even…why are they treated like they aren’t of worth? Why are we dehumanized and treated like second class citizens?
Why?
And why can’t we have a discussion in this country about this?
Can someone, one you people who are berating PZ for bringing this up…can one of you explain that to me?
GODFUCKING DAMMIT!
Yes I’m crying and shaking still. I guess it doesn’t matter to some people, because I’m just a person of color. Fuck.
Reality should be more important to atheists than some fantasy on the screen. It doesn’t seem to be working out that way.
ceesays is also rather unhappy.
You’re all sitting here talking about mike brown, but I’ve got some more fuckign names for you while you’re all booing the derailing nitwit with the tone argument. Sit all your asses down. Open your ears, and hear me.
Mike Brown was a 17 black boy who was killed by police while he was unarmed. I’m aware that most of you had heard about him before this post.
He died two days ago.
John Crawford was an unarmed 22 year old black man who was killed by police while shopping in a wal-mart, a hotspot for white people to slouch around wearing the latest all american fashion – assault rifles. Perhaps you heard of him. Perhaps the name is fuzzily familiar.
He died on August the 8th.
Perhaps you’ve even heard of Ezell Ford, a 24 year old black man who was killed by police while he was walking along 65th street, some TWO HUNDRED blocks north of where a shooting had been reported. He was lying on the ground and obeying police orders when he was killed by police.
He died on August the 13th. oh look.
That’s today.
you all going to be paying attention when the next unarmed black man dies to police on the 15th? you gonna remember their names when there’s another black person lying dead in the street, killed by police on the 17th? are you going to remember eric garner’s name? you wondering who eric garner is?
It’s not just mike brown. It’s name after name after name, and it’s been going on for years. YEARS. somebody black is KILLED by police in america once every 28 hours, and you’re upset because you have depression and how could anyone dare point out that the media grabbing onto Robin William’s suicide is a political move rooted deep into anti-blackness.
Well. I have mental illnesses too. And Robin Williams – he was famous. He was rich. He had treatment. More treatment than I could ever obtain for my comorbid bipolar disorder and PTSD. And if he couldn’t beat it, why should I even bother?
And if I did beat it, what kind of a life do I get with this skin? because black women get murdered by police. did you hear about the black grandmother who was nearly beaten to death by a cop? did you hear about that? Did you hear about the young pregnant woman in ferguson who was bodyslammed?
Did you hear that it’s so bad that black people don’t want to have children, because look at the world they’d be bring their kids into? Did you hear any of that?
Look, I’m sorry Robin Williams is dead. I admired him a great deal. I loved his HBO improv performance. I watched Mork and Mindy. I watched The Dead Poets Society and Patch Adams and Death to Smoochy. I’m sorry he killed himself, both because I can’t stop imagining how deep the pain has to go to actually go through with it. Williams’s death has conviced me that I have a terminal disease from which there is no cure, and I will die from it. Maybe not today. But I know how I’m going to die. It got him, it’ll get me too. That’s just how it is.
But PZ is right. News media is using his death as a way to turn a blind eye to Mike brown and all the other dead black people they ignore or blame for their deaths.
Oh, and you thought the If I was gunned down photo meme was funny?
Oh.
Would you mind terribly if I don’t feel safe around you at all? because that photo meme made me want to smash things and weep, because that’s the joke, you see. We’re never allowed to be human. Not even when we’re innocent. Not even when we’re murder victims, because we are not human.
All of you Pharyngulites who have been following the evil in Ferguson and reporting it here, thank you. I’m horrified that it’s necessary, but I appreciate all that you’re doing.
Inaji, I hope you can get some respite, and I’m glad Amelia is there to provide ratty comforting.
Antonio French has apparently been released.
Video of the Al Jazeera journalists being teargassed off their equipment is playing on MSNBC this morning.
Anne, Old Gumble Cat @!1 — Seconded. I was just about to post a similar thought; thanks for saying it so well.
A lead article at The Atlantic this morning:
Turning Policemen Into Soldiers, the Culmination of a Long Trend
Another poisoned fruit of the post-9/11 sensibility
James Fallows
Aug 14 2014, 12:52 AM ET
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/turning-policemen-into-soldiers-the-culmination-of-a-long-trend/376052/
“The images from Missouri of stormtrooper-looking police confronting their citizens naturally raises the question: how the hell did we get to this point? When did the normal cops become Navy SEALs? What country is this, anyway?….”
Found the source for the raw video of police teargassing the Al Jazeera camera crew and then pulling up in their SWAT truck and pointing the cameras and lights at the ground, via KSDK news.
http://www.ksdk.com/videos/news/local/2014/08/14/14042891/
Antonio French was interviewed on the local news this morning before I headed out for work.
“Our constitutional rights don’t expire at 9 o’clock”
was one of his quotes.
He was arrested for not listening as far as he knows, there were no charges and he was given no paperwork. One assumes had he not been an alderman for the city of St. Louis he’d still be sitting in a cell for being black while cops were scared.
MSNBC’s Chuck Todd just asked why witnesses are reluctant to come forward and speak to police. [*cough*] Benjamin Crump, the Browns’ family attorney, says they’re encouraging witnesses to cooperate with the FBI investigation. (It would be nice if they mentioned that on Sunday and Monday, witnesses were *begging* police to take their statements and were refused.)
The general consensus here: if this is militarization, it’s the shittiest, least-trained, least professional military in the world, using weapons far beyond what they need, or what the military would use when doing crowd control.
From the KSDK report: (Link)
KSDK on the arrest of Antonio French. (The interview footage doesn’t appear to be up yet.) (Link)
Stories on multiple sites about Anonymous releasing the name of the alleged killer of Michael Brown.
With practically a war waged on the citizens of Ferguson… I legitimately fear this may end up horrifically bloody.
I walked past the news today heading to breakfast and saw the images of the tear gas and police in riot gear and thought “oh great, there’s another revolution in Ukraine”
I was stunned to see that it was Ferguson.
These cops are ready for all out war. They’re not here to help protect the civilians of Ferguson. They’re not here to ensure security. They’re there to fight and shoot someone.
Also – fucking Nate Silver.
via Newseum, this morning’s St. Louis Dispatch front page. (Link) (Direct image link)
[Image of full front-page spread, headed by: A CITY ON EDGE
Nightly standoffs continue as Ferguson begins cleanup
Tear gas used to break up protesters – Officer still not named – Reporters arrested
Followed by a roughly half-page photo of a single protester on their knees in the street, ducking and covering their head with their arms, surrounded and partially obscured by clouds of tear gas.
Lower-page headlines:
Sweeping the streets: Ferguson residents take to the streets to help clean up.
Officials make plea: Authorities ask for patience as investigation unfolds.
Rancor continues: Protesters remain defiant before police.
No details coming soon
Witness talks to police
Naming officers not routine]
I’ve not been able to keep up with this thread, but I want to express my deep appreciation for you folks keeping it up to date. I can’t do Twitter – too much abuse for my fragile self atm – so having people I respect and admire reposting important stuff means a lot to me, and I really deeply appreciate your dedication to the story. Thank you all.
Fuck fascism, up the people!
via Twitter: a condemning statement from the OSCE. (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) (OSCE link)
So I made a huge mistake and read some comments on a news site about Ferguson:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/protests-in-st-louis-suburb-again-turn-ugly/
Please do not read unless you are incredibly talented at holding back vomit, or are already a hollow shell that barely feels emotion.
MSNBC segments from last night are now up, including:
Rachel Maddow covering the Ferguson police chief’s press conference Wednesday afternoon, the “daylight hours” message, the crackdown and Wesley Lowery’s arrest. (Link)
Much more on MSNBC’s playlist, which I can’t seem to link individually – Chris Hayes speaking to reporter Trymaine Lee about being targeted with tear gas, and Lawrence O’Donnell and Sherrilyn Ifill of the NAACP: ” ‘We have silence’ coming from Ferguson officials”.
Text article from Trymaine Lee: (Link)
I dunno if this is a repost, but there’s another witness confirming that the murder of Michael Brown was just… horrifying.
http://colorlines.com/archives/2014/08/new_video_witness_in_michael_brown_shooting.html
MSNBC still has live coverage today. Now interviewing a community organizer who’s talking about bringing social services door-to-door to Ferguson residents, such as milk for a parent without a car, and psychologists to help deal with trauma.
Pteryxx: some video of the protest:
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930/videos/59155583
Skip to 1:27:30. People are just standing around protesting, then suddenly a few people run, the police declare it no longer peaceful, and they start shooting.
In a sense, it’s true: the protest was no longer peaceful as soon as the police started shooting.
In a later video on that same stream, you see some protesters throwing things back at the police. This is after they’ve been shot and gassed twice.
MSNBC now interviewing Ferguson’s mayor, who’s talking about how darned difficult it is to distinguish between peaceful protesters and violent troublemakers after dark. *gag*
…He just claimed that the SWAT teams were surrounding the protests in broad daylight because “what your cameras didn’t show was that gunfire was erupting all around”. The mayor said that. (I’m transcribing what I heard but I’m fairly sure that’s accurate.)
He says – hundreds of police officers out there and only 50 or so are his so he can’t account for how all of them behave. He says the NAACP’s filing is against the St Louis County police, not the Ferguson police – that’s a “completely different department”.
OH FFS.
Right – the mayor is being interviewed on NewsNation with Tamron Hall. I’m sure video will be up before long.
Now he’s saying there’s no history of racial tension in the area and some reporter from the Washington Post has no idea what he’s talking about.
I think this mayor has forgotten which network he’s speaking with.
Fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck hiiiiiiiiiiiim…
Well, on the upside, if he ends up getting fired, he’ll have a bright future as a customer service call center operator. Jesus fuck.
Looking at some of the older comments Knowles made.
“”I don’t know any of the facts of the case, but it seemed like everybody else did within a couple of hours and that was all on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.”
“I never saw the frustration or the anger between the races. We are a very cohesive group. You just feel like we went in peace and harmony for the most part and to see racial violence occur that’s just completely a new phenomenon here.”
What an utterly incompetent and ignorant asshat.
Obama will be making a public statement at 11:15 Eastern time; nothing about the content or topic of this statement. (It’s likely to be about Iraq, but who knows.)
Bah – 12:15 Eastern time, 11:15 Central time – in about 45 minutes from now. My bad.
Looks like to governor just confirmed that state & federal authorities will be relieving the local PD of their duties. I wonder what Obama is going to say to all of this.
Travis: don’t hold Canada up too high on that pedestal. We had the Toronto G20 in 2010; their chief of police is still around, and only Nobody has gotten any justice so far. Lots of cases pending; it takes minutes to violate someone’s rights, but years to see any recourse through the courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_G-20_Toronto_summit_protests
We also had the Maple Spring protests in Quebec in 2012; the government in power noticed that they were getting good press everywhere that they had a chance to win seats, so they just kept beating the protesters harder. Then they called an election, hoping that police brutality (which was a positive) would drown out a corruption scandal (which was a negative). Didn’t quite work for them, but they were only out of power for a year and a half.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A8ve_%C3%A9tudiante_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9coise_de_2012
That wikpedia page is particularly interesting: the French version details everything that happened. The English version is the anglo mass media version: the students are wrong about everything, and they’re horrible vandals. Almost none of the protesters are hurt except one guy whose eye got blown out by either a projectile thrown by protesters (who were throwing snowballs) or a police flash-bang — nobody can prove it either way (!) — and two others. Dozens of police are injured . The chronology stops in late may, which is when the protests widened to the general population. Pretty much what the US right wing is doing about the Ferguson protests: minimize and denigrate.
What I’d like to hear Obama say:
“This is a disgrace and a travesty of Justice. The handling of this situation is intolerable and will stop immediately”
What will probably happen:
“We condemn the violence against the police even in these situations….”
Maybe this should go in the other thread, and maybe someone else has brought it up (I haven’t read the 1000+ comments between the two posts) if so sorry, but I have to mention this. My problem with the first post by Professor Myers’ isn’t tone or anything like that, it’s that Myers is guilty of the same damn “crime” (error, whatever) that the media allegedly was. Michael Brown was killed on Aug. 9th. Prior to post exploiting Williams’ death, the following topics were covered on the blog:
God of vapor, yet another post chided liberal believers
Hard chairs, and how uncomfortable they were to listen to talks
How do you rating humans in terms of ethics? you really can’t!
The younger Myer’s future wedding
Pastor/dog sex story.
Yet another post demonstrating that Wade is full of shit. (note: this would have been a perfect segue into the shooting of Michael Brown)
Infighting about outrage culture in the atheist movement
Dawkins’s latest nonsense
Bulldog, literal.
Conference.
Moors
Mocking Palin
and….freaken’ roller derby
Quite clearly if the media should be focused on the events in Ferguson, then the blog should have mentioned them…prior to complaining that the media wasn’t talking about it while exploiting a man’s death to make the point.
I consider this strike one.
Duh, Duh, Duhn! It was nice of you to let us know that you didn’t take the time to read the comments, perhaps if you had then you wouldn’t have felt the need to drop this comment on a thread where people are trying to talk about what is going on in Ferguson.
From Shakesville:
MSNBC is now discussing the lack of accountability and transparency – whose cops are these? What precincts are they from? Where did all this military hardware come from and who trained them to use it against civilians? No badge numbers, no names given, no leaders speaking publicly except the ones who say “they’re not ours”.
I didn’t notice this up thread. Saw it at Greg Laden’s blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2014/08/14/ferguson-police-are-at-your-door/
Until Michael Brown was killed, there were exactly ZERO homicides in Ferguson this year.
I consider you a fucking moron who can’t comprehend that people don’t always get news in a timely manner, especially when that news is nearly non-existent.
Consider this strike three for you. Get the fuck out.
Hoo boy. Almost half my social circle:
“Well they started looting so they’re getting what they deserve”
me: “what about tear-gassing non-violent protesters and arresting journalists”
“shouldn’t have pissed off the cops”
My social circle just got smaller. By about half, actually >.>
Fuck racists. Don’t need that in my life
Good for you! It may be hard to ditch friends who otherwise seem “fine” and “respectable”, but then of course you’d be ignoring the “otherwise”.
I’m honestly ashamed I still have Republican friends, but at least those that I’ve stayed friends with are the types who never bring up or engage in political talk (at least when I’m around them).
Oh. Further to Mellow Monkey’s link to a few soldiers scathing assessments of police attitudes, here’s one from an individual soldier. http://pecunium.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/ferguson/ He did some arithmetic on how many rounds the cops are carrying. As well as some other observations.
michael kellymiecielica @ 33
Except that PZ remedied the oversight by *le gasp* blogging about it.
Oh dear me. Someone direct me to the fainting couch.
michael kellymiecielica @ 33;
And I am sure PZ is just terrified – terrified I say! – that you have started counting imaginary ‘strikes’. No really, that kind of thing haunts a body.
Do I need a sarcasm tag? Oh, go on then…
/Sarcasm
Just a heads up; this is not the kind of place to say self important things that practically beg to be mocked. The commenters here include many dietary vegetarians, but we are all metaphorical meat eaters.
Welcome to the Pharyngula piranha tank. For your own good you might want to try to stop bleeding into the water…
@Island Adolescent
“I consider you a fucking moron who can’t comprehend that people don’t always get news in a timely manner, especially when that news is nearly non-existent.”
Myers knew of the situation in Ferguson prior to making the Williams post. Otherwise, Myers would not have known to include it in the Williams’ post. This means he could have posted about Ferguson directly prior to complaining about the media not covering it. I don’t know when Myers learned of the Michael Brown’s murder, but I heard about it on Aug. 10 via online news, so I think one can reasonable expect a day of knowledge. But regardless of that, the entire post is breathtaking in its hypocrisy in that it comes across as basically “the media are such assholes for not talking about this thing I just started to talk about two seconds ago!” It would have annoyed me regardless if Myers’ exploited Williams’ death or not, but by shoehorning Williams in there does piss me off a great deal.
Also from mildlymagnificent’s link at #41. This is important context and the news should be mentioning this whenever they talk about a police shooting.
@Gregory
“And I am sure PZ is just terrified – terrified I say! – that you have started counting imaginary ‘strikes’. No really, that kind of thing haunts a body.”
I’m sure he is not, and all I mean is I give people three chances before I stop reading their blog. Given that I have read this blog, almost daily, for 3 years I hope I can keep reading it.
@Seven of Mine
“xcept that PZ remedied the oversight by *le gasp* blogging about it.”
No, the post in question is not about Ferguson, it’s about how the media is not covering Ferguson enough.
@ michael kellymiecielica
You’ll have to forgive me if I doubt you give a shit about Ferguson as you just helicoptered into a 1000+ comment thread which is being regularly updated with the goings on in Ferguson and are, instead, whining about PZ’s timing and tone.
Obama’s addressing the Iraq operations first of two issues.
@Pteryxx,
Thanks. I’m at work and can’t watch the stream atm.
Obama would like us all to take a step back and consider how to move forward. Consulting with the governor, the DOJ involved… and important to remember how all this started, with the death of a young man.
Whoof… this is going to need a proper transcript with the balance he seems to be trying to strike.
Obama: “We lost a young man”
Yep. Just a thing that happened. Not anybody’s fault. Nope. Rawr.
Basically it’s a call for calm and to let the DOJ work with local officials. Also a mention to let journalists do their jobs without harassment. I note there’s no mention about the DOJ consulting or working with *the community*.
Also, MSNBC’s correspondents are noting the lack of any mention of intervening with the National Guard or martial law.
That’s my impression; it was too fast for me to transcribe without losing the nuance of the statements.
Here’s video from NBC: (Link with video)
@Seven of Mine
I have actually been reading the thread on and off since it started for any tidbits of information because I am concerned about everything that Ferguson has happening . And I think some of the coverage by Reason (see here: http://reason.com/archives/2014/08/14/some-thoughts-on-ferguson-newark-state-v ) has been insightful and how it connects to the ever deepening militarization of the police. I have also been following Radley Balko (https://twitter.com/radleybalko ) as I find his commentary to be great when it comes to this sort of issue. I don’t comment a lot on this site because I generally don’t comment. Do not take my lack of commentary as not engaging with the issues. Sometimes it is better for a person like me to shut and listen as people on this site like to say.
And it’s not “tone” and “timing,” it’s Myers didn’t do what he chastised others for not doing. It’s galling in its obvious hypocrisy.
And Obama continues to disappoint…another reason I’m glad I didn’t vote for the smuck.
No, just fuck that idiotic sack of meat. It’s best to ignore it. We’ve had enough of this bullshit in the first thread and I’m already two posts into being sucked back in to the troll diversion. The Thunderdome exists. I don’t want to continue to divert attention to these fucking numbskulls who can’t reason their way out of a paper bag.
Pteryxx thanks for the link. Really appreciated.
The Guardian’s US edition ran a live blog on Obama’s remarks and Governor Nixon’s before that.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/aug/14/erguson-protests-police-crackdown-michael-brown-shooting
Thanks mildlymagnificent. If anyone finds a transcript please link it.
You’re still moaning about something tangential which we’ve already chewed over and spit out multiple times in order to interrupt people actually talking about Ferguson. Go the fuck away.
michael @33:
How about ‘PZ blogged about it when he learned about Ferguson’?
How about ‘PZ is in another country where it may take a little while to hear about events in the US’?
How about ‘PZ isn’t the media’?
How about you don’t tell a blogger what they should report on, when and how?
Strike 3, you’re out.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/13/right-wing-media-politicize-obamas-statement-on/200428
Well it certainly didn’t take long of the Fox News vultures to spin it in that direction.
Ferguson police chief now in press conference asking “everybody to tone it down”.
“What I’m satisfied with is that we haven’t hurt anybody.” and that’s why they’re rolling with nonlethal rounds.
*headdesk*
Also said they will have plenty of porta-potties so protesters can protest as long as they want.
Chief says, we can’t go into a crowd and ask the individuals excuse me sir are you peacefully protesting?
Last I heard there was *training* for this sort of thing.
michael kellymiecielica says@33
Oh noes PZ! Another bad Yelp review! You’re gonna lose ANOTHER customer! I told you to keep the Belgian waffles on the menu! Wait? This isn’t a restaurant review? Oh, this is a fucking blog? Nobody gives a shit if another wanker decides to flounce? Sorry, flounce IF you swing and miss two more times? Oh…fucking…noes.
“Chief says, we can’t go into a crowd and ask the individuals excuse me sir are you peacefully protesting?
Last I heard there was *training* for this sort of thing.”
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGH!!
“What I’m satisfied with is that we haven’t hurt anybody.”
Except those fist-sized rubber bullet wounds. And the damage from tear gas. And that one man that was apparently detained and screaming for help while the police realized they bagged a reporter.
Ronan Farrow on MSNBC is now discussing the surplus property 1033 program and the flow of military equipment to local police departments nationwide.
This is going to be my last comment on this line of thought because I don’t want to derail any more than I have, but:
@Tony
“How about ‘PZ blogged about it when he learned about Ferguson’?
How about ‘PZ is in another country where it may take a little while to hear about events in the US’?”
I have already addressed this. Myers must have known about Ferguson prior to complaining about how the media was treating Ferguson vs Williams, otherwise the complaint would have no basis. Regardless of when Myers learned of Ferguson, if he thought it was so important to talk about (and it is!) he should have brought it up, then complained about the media was ignoring it. Not, mind you, complaining about how the media was not talking about this event(s) and the issues it brings up that Myers himself was not talking about it.
“How about ‘PZ isn’t the media’?”
I think “Pharyngula” and FreeThought blogs, generally, would have to be included under any reasonable definition of media. I certainly treat this network as a news source for certain things. This blog is far more substantial then tumblr-diary thing, and it has a thriving community that shares news. I think it’s media. I’m willing to argue about this point in thunderdrome if you want.
“How about you don’t tell a blogger what they should report on, when and how?”
Oh sure, as long as Myers (and bloggers!) don’t tell reporters ‘what they should report on, when and how.’ But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Transcript of Obama’s complete remarks from the Washington Post. (Link)
That’s two of the six paragraphs addressing Ferguson.
“otherwise the complaint would have no basis”
Or you know, you find out about the story several days late while finding out about Robin Williams immediately and wonder “What the fuck?”
How much of a fucking idjit can you be? Just fuck off already.
Ichthyic , some of us might be requesting asylum in NZ….you got a big couch?
(And I’m only half-joking.)
FTB roundup:
Dana Hunter – White America has outlawed Existing-While-Black with extensive links.
Richard Carrier – Help get justice for Michael Brown with background and links to the family’s fundraiser for legal expenses, funeral expenses and a private autopsy.
From yesterday evening, Jason Thibeault on Maddow and the record of racial problems in Ferguson.
and I’m calling it a day. Thanks Horde.
Dear god, PZ. Will you please whiff the next two pitches? We’ll call it a sacrifice strikeout…
Thanks so much for all your linkage Pteryxx. o/
Maybe he fell down the well, quick someone call lassie, we lost a young man.
Fucking hell, Obama. Say it as it is. Ferguson police gunned down an innocent young man because he was black and race relations in this country fucking suck.
Thanks for the coverage and links Pteryxx.
I’m skeptical.
Carlie, thank you.
Antonio French @AntonioFrench · 4m
My interview with local media following my release from #Ferguson jail this morning: http://t.co/7ScNgrVfmn
Sorry, PZ apologists. His OP on this was insensitive, and while you may not care or think so, it is the response of any of us in the atheist community.
Also, I just saw that Politifact found the picture from PZ’s OP is fake and its claims completely false.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/14/tweets/ferguson-police-chiefs-wife-calls-african-american/
Source
Two things, 1) what was insensitive, and 2) where do you speak for the entire atheist community, and not just your corner of one?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html
a list of a bunch of headlines comparing white suspects and black victims, and their descriptions.
1967:
What is false is that the woman is not the Chief’s wife, which came out in the midst of all the horrible things happening last night. Y’know, a decent person might be more concerned by the people arrested last night, wondering if they would ever be heard from again. Or the horrible wounds sustained by people shot with rubber bullets. Or a journalist who was arrested reporting that there was a man screaming for medical help, and was mocked, then ignored by police. Or the use of mass amounts of gas, stun grenades, rubber bullets, blinding lights, and LDAP sirens on people last night. Or that a small town in Missouri looked like a war zone. Or that people from Gaza were tweeting in solidarity with people in Ferguson, and giving them tips on how to deal with being gassed.
Your pettiness does you no credit, and a handful of people have been desperately trying to keep focus on what matters for days now. You aren’t helping, so I suggest that if you simply must carp and whine some more about how awful PZ is, please take it to thunderdome, where the people in this thread at least, won’t be subjected to your small mind and overwhelming insensitivity. Thanks.
Pteryxx:
‘Excessive force’ doesn’t cover it. It’s also a phrase that has become hackneyed, so people don’t pay much attention to it anymore. I think ‘declared war’ would be more apt in this case.
Depends on how you read the second amendment surely?
The Prez:
Uh huh. It would be nice if all the people who witnessed the
tragedymurder were listened to, and it would have been great if anyone bothered to get their statements in a timely manner. Then there’s the constant coverage from people on twitter. I wonder if those accounts will be paid any attention.Oh? How about if a police officer is trying to murder you? Supposed to just obey then, too?
Tell that to the people the “police” are shooting at.
For “police” read “militarised gang.” When they cease to act as civil keepers of the peace, they are no longer police in anything but name.
‘His OP on this was insensitive, and while you may not care or think so, it is the response of [m]any of us in the atheist community.’
“Two things, 1) what was insensitive, and 2) where do you speak for the entire atheist community, and not just your corner of one?
1. This was insensitive: “…thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people. . . Boy, I hate to say it, but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction.”
2. I don’t speak for the entire atheist community, obviously. Where did I claim that I did?
“Y’know, a decent person might be more concerned by the people arrested last night, wondering if they would ever be heard from again….”
Seriously? Because I reported an inaccuracy in PZ’s OP, I am now not a decent person. You know nothing about me, but thanks for the ad hominem.
SMH. Another day, more rioting, looting, tear gas, etc. Wake me when everyone comes to their senses and decides to calm the fuck down so this situation can finally get resolved.
From #Ferguson:
I wonder how many people still don’t have any idea of what has happened. Those of with blogs need to be very noisy, I think.
One Nation Under SWAT
Caesar @90: nice of you to generically decry rioting and looting. But I haven’t heard any reports of such except on the first night of protests. Do you have news to the contrary?
Eh, why? You’re pretty much useless to the world, aside from the taxes you pay. Sleep forever. Who cares?
Everyone else, thanks for the updates and links.
FTFY, Mr. President.
Well, let’s see: are they hurling brickbats and molotov cocktails at you? They aren’t? Are you being mobbed and bludgeoned to the ground by people with clubs and rocks? You aren’t?(Not that it wouldn’t be pure self defence if the demonstraters were doing that at this point, but they aren’t). Then I guess they’re doing the other thing, what’s it called… oh, right, peacefully protesting. It’s actually pretty easy to tell the difference.
numerobis @93, please, don’t give Caesar any reason at all to keep posting. You may not be familiar with them, but the rest of us are, and to use Tony’s words, they are a vile shitstain, and their continual river of shit isn’t needed in this thread (or any other), especially as so many of us are heartworn and rather broken over the events of this last week.
Dalillama:
Yes, it is. It’s even easy to tell just by looking. Downright amazing a chief of police doesn’t seem to know that.
sarcasm1967 @ 89
1) No, because of your choice to continue carping on a trivial detail in the midst of people trying to maintain focus on atrocities being committed.
2) Will someone please teach these fuckwits what ad hominem fucking means? Nobody said you’re wrong because you’re an asshole. They said you’re wrong and an asshole. See the difference?
caesar @ 90
How about no? Does no work for you?
Oopsie, sorry Inaji I didn’t see your request not to continue trying to respond to caesar til after I posted. I shall refrain in the future.
and whoa, where’d that closing bold tag run off to. Yikes…
I am always amazed how often looting, rioting, and of course since last night, Molotov cocktails are used to excuse just about any bad behaviour on the part of the police. On Imgur the photos of the Al Jazeera crew being tear gassed, and the police turning their cameras down after they left made it to the front page, and as always cries came out calling it biased, that we should remember people were rioting, as though that somehow explains this and makes it acceptable.
No, you report what you think is an inaccuracy. How did I dismiss what you said because of who you are? That is what ad hominem means. It doesn’t mean just an insult, if it is shown why you are being insulted. Since you don’t understand basic definitions, it is correct to be skeptical of what you say, and how you look at things.
Inaji, you’re right, sorry for feeding the troll.
Travis:
I’m pretty sure a lot of the media will paint it that way, but throughout this situation, there was very little rioting, and there were a whole lot of photos showing the people of Ferguson out helping to clean up afterwards, there were constant calls for peace and protest instead, which is the way those people turned, and still, look what happened.
I honestly don’t see how anyone is going to be able to trust cops anywhere in the States. Almost every force has been militarized, and from listening to the stories people have related, like Magistramarla @68, where militarized SWAT teams are automatically shooting peoples’ dogs. And yes, I know there are there are good people out there who happen to be cops, those who are more interested in community than playing soldier, but there aren’t enough of them, nowhere near enough to force a change. I think we in the U.S. will be seeing more of this, and I am terrified of the day that people become blasé about that happening, too.
This seems maybe hopeful: link. I notice McCaskill is calling for a demilitarization of the police response. Very glad Missouri went with her instead of “pro-life” Akin who’d probably be calling for martial law by now if he’d been senator.
Well here’s a thing. When even Rand fucking Paul can spot the problem…
@Obama:
fucking bigot.
@107: Wow. When Rand Paul notices something’s wrong, it’s either turned the corner and about to get better a la McCarthy imploding over the communists in the military (wrong target, guy: stick with Hollywood next time) or the country’s about to go full blown fascist. I’m hoping the former and think it’s probably the former, but am keeping an eye on escape routes. Just in case.
Earlier, a photo was posted to #Ferguson of McCaskill and one of the protesters. https://twitter.com/chryssi/status/499958010304036864/photo/1
From Antonio French:
My last Vine last night. I was arrested before I could post. #ferguson https://vine.co/v/MYUPUlQT1dt
From Antonio French:
This woman who was helping to calm the crowd last night got shot by a rubber bullet later on. #Ferguson
The diversity of American police forces
Call me a cynic but that Rand Paul article is just opportunistic shit. He’s jumping at the chance to push the usual libertarian anti-government message while seeming to come out against racism.
Worse: Paul quotes someone from the Cato Institute saying the same thing.
Anyway: Petition to the US Attorney General, the MO Attorney General and the police chief of Ferguson “to complete a rigorous investigation of the Ferguson Police Department’s racially discriminatory policing, prosecute said officers to the fullest extent of the law, and begin the firing process for all involved officers”.
I do think that Paul is against the kinds of racism he recognizes. He just has blind spots about others.
@Inaji, #115:
So, fucking true. Calm behavior? Calm demeanor? Those can help highlight the fucking ridiculousness of the police mindset, the injustice of the police actions. But calm emotions?
Hell no. It takes a powerful motivation to stand, unarmed, in front of a tank. And we need people to stand in front of the Ferguson armored vehicles. Most especially we need white people to stand in front of the Ferguson armored vehicles, and **not enough** white people are outraged yet.
Calming emotions comes across to me as the nice, white, middle-class response:
@112: holy hell that’s a disgusting wound.
[…]
Source.
Democrat Plans Police Anti-militarization Bill In Response To Ferguson
Two More Unarmed Young Black Men Have Been Shot by Police Since Michael Brown’s Death
http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/11-worst-dumbest-responses-ferguson-michael-brown-shooting/
CD @ 119:
Yeah, it’s beyond tiresome, and it is infuriating, how often the people of Ferguson have been told to “calm down”. It would have been nice if even one-tenth of those calm downs were aimed at the cops.
yet another day where the governor could send in a troop of nat guard and send the cops home to defuse the situation.
think he will consider the idea?
naww… too fucking stupid.
oh, wait, didn’t see this:
well, that’s better than the local cops ramping up tensions anyway.
Couch is more of a love seat really; we’re renting cheap to save money for a house, but there’s plenty of space overall in NZ. You just have to make it past immigration, which is a bit of a nightmare, to be sure.
Frankly, state troopers sound better than the national guard to my ears: the former are police, the latter are army. Of course, it turns out that small-town police are army too these days.
Can’t say it’s comfortable, but I’ve got a couch here in Canada, 100mi the other side of the border from Buffalo, as well as an inflatable bed. There are so many USan expats here in town, not least because it’s a high-tech centre (home of the Blackberry, and we have big offices for Google and other tech giants), but also just generally, or maybe it’s that I know so many of them it seems like a huge number.
Of course, fleeing the fascistizing US for Harper’s fascist lite (tastes great, and also less killing!) Canada may well be like fleeing Nazi Germany in 1937 and thinking, “Wow, now I’m safe, here in Austria!”, but…
From Antonio French:
A military man upset about the militarization of #Ferguson
Happening right now in #Ferguson
Did Anyone Actually Yell “Kill the Police”?
http://www.aclu-mo.org/files/3414/0804/0291/08-14-14_Videotaping_Complaint.pdf
What Happens to #Ferguson Affects Ferguson:
Net Neutrality, Algorithmic Filtering and Ferguson
Are you still short of oncologists? Because I can work in East Sheep if need be. (And I can cut the New Zealand stereotypes out too if they get annoying.)
Justice Department division leading Ferguson investigation hasn’t had a director in more than a year
Petition: Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera.
Missouri State Sen. @MariaChappelleN tweets “F-ck you” to @GovJayNixon for his response to the situation in Ferguson: https://twitter.com/DIANAZOGA/status/500024706133540864/photo/1
I dropped half my circle after 9/11. for the same reasons.
then I dropped the other half when W got re-elected.
Then I just dropped the entire field of play.
Daz @107:
I can’t believe that was written by Rand Paul (I know it was obviously, it’s just rather shocking).
****
Seven of Mine:
Normally I’d agree with you, but here I get the feeling he may actually not be pushing that typical libertarian tripe. His acknowledgment of racial disparity in the justice system is something I am unaccustomed to hearing from libertarians. Plus, he’s not wrong about the militarization of our police forces. That’s a legitimate argument against the US government (it fits with his other beliefs, but at the least, this article doesn’t play up his normal anti-government rhetoric).
they have a great sense of humor here. sheep jokes are welcome.
I’d say medical is VERY short on personnel here, as most go on to Australia or the US when they get their degrees. OZ pays about 30% better than here, and the US about 60% better for medicos.
frankly, you’re going to get less pay for work here, no matter what you do. It’s a very small country. I decided it was well worth it though. This place rocks in so many ways.
11 Things White People Should Stop Saying to Black People Immediately
the point to my mind was to start disconnecting the local police force from violently suppressing the local community, and thus perpetuating the animosity between residents and police.
if you have an entirely different unit in there to “keep order”, I thought it might help break the association between cops and violence even further.
not like the nat guard is gonna stick around there indefinitely.
Mixed bag with the nat guard though; on the side of good during the civil rights era in the south, but I also recall them being used to bust protestors in Berkeley in the 60s as well.
*shrug*
numerobis (#120)
Looks like a volcano. She should name it Mt. Fuckthepolice.
Michael.
Please stop reading this blog. Do not wait for 3 chances. Do not pass go. do not collect 200 dollars. just fuck off.
In the previous page of comments, someone posted a picture from Ferguson of a woman who got hit with a rubber bullet.
that wound was penetrative and bordering on serious.
the fucker is lying. They HAVE HURT PEOPLE (post having flat out murdered Brown I mean).
BREAKING: 8 People just got arrested at the action at the US Attorney’s office.
Ichthyic:
This page, too. There are additional photos of people who have been wounded by rubber bullets, but you need a twitter account to see them (they were protected by the poster, for graphic violence), one of them is a woman who was hit in the face, and now has a crater just like the Pastor who was hit in the abdomen. Another man was wounded in the neck. Those rubber bullets can kill people.
Odd he didn’t quote the report on the militarization of police put out by the ACLU….
which is actually what the CATO inst used to make its commentary I am willing to bet.
like I posted on the previous page… they were banned in the UK over 40 years ago for just that reason.
wonder why the US is still using them…
A photo out of Ferguson to make you feel all warm and cuddly. Or not.
From Rand Paul, as quoted by Tony!:
Oh, if only Paul knew what he just said here…and meant it!
MSNBC just ran an ad for All In, Chris Hayes’ show, saying that he will be reporting from Ferguson. And now he’s on Rev Al’s show right now, live from Ferguson. Stay safe, Chris.
From the twitter conversation about the 8 arrests mentioned by Inaji in 141:
Let’s celebrate actions promoting justice by…promoting injustice. Nice job, HeinleinWasRight.
I’ll believe libertarians really want smaller government when people like Rand Paul talk hard about dismantling the Department of Homeland Security, which is by far and away the biggest spending of public monies on a non military project that has EVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF MAN. No, instead you get these fuckers talking about dismantling public education. anyone who thinks that’s a good thing is a complete idiot.
The media seem to entirely ignore the issue of Homeland Security though (excluding Rachel Maddow…. probably). I wonder why (not really).
http://jezebel.com/this-is-why-were-mad-about-the-shooting-of-mike-brown-1619522935
frankly, if I was a local cop forced to go out on duty there, I might think to cover my face too.
not just out of embarrassment, but out of fear of reprisals because I KNOW what I’m doing is wrong.
CD @ 148, I saw that. The assholes are coming out of the woodwork now, showing up regular in #Ferguson.
…also bookmarked the internal link there to “White on White crime”. which I will now post every time I see the “black on black crime” meme.
Ichthyic:
That ran through my mind too, but if I saw that person running at me, or aiming anything at me…
Clay calls killing of Brown “a murder” (Yes I noted those scare quotes).
Via Antonio French: There’s a new sheriff in town.
http://janeewoods.com/2014/08/14/becoming-a-white-ally-to-black-people-in-the-aftermath-of-the-michael-brown-murder/
also true.
The Pentagon Gave the Ferguson Police Department Military-Grade Weapons
Ryan Reilly notes the difference, in photos, of police presence last night, and police presence now, in Ferguson.
Al Sharpton was showing the police chief talking. The cheif put his foot in it several times.
Here’s the police presence for the march.
#Ferguson largest crowd I’ve seen so far marching, at least several thousand, peaceful
Several hundred at 123 and morningside in Harlem. In solidarity. A call to action. Powerful. #Ferguson
Highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is leading protesters on a march through Ferguson.
Unlike in #ferguson, protesters in NYC allowed to take over Broadway No interference from Nypd but taxis not happy!
Inaji @161:
Finally!
Things never should have taken the turn they did. Hopefully now protesters can continue exercising their Constitutional rights and the media can safely cover this story.
New witness steps forward in Michael Brown shooting, provides new video
Tony:
Finally is right! Captain Johnson is leading the march, he’s talking with people. One of his officers is on record of saying about the march “it’s a good cause, I’d be here even if I wasn’t working”.
From Inaji’s link at #164:
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm
14 August 2014 at 2:47 pm
“1967 @ 89
1) No, because of your choice to continue carping on a trivial detail in the midst of people trying to maintain focus on atrocities being committed.
2) Will someone please teach these fuckwits what ad hominem fucking means? Nobody said you’re wrong because you’re an asshole. They said you’re wrong and an asshole. See the difference?”
What is happening in Ferguson is horrible. I’m glad you have this blog to share your thoughts and feelings… to “maintain focus.” How horrible that other readers are bothered by being told we have “sacred cows.” I’ve been a reader of all the Freethought blogs, but apparently, this blog has its own fan club thought police in which readers aren’t allowed to speak up against callousness for they might derail the all too important dialogue of blog commentary.
Thanks for calling me an asshole and a fuckwit. If this is the kind of blog PZ wants, then have at it.
Hundreds of people marching through Manhattan right now #Ferguson
“There will be no tear gas tonight” -Capt. Ronald Johnson in #Ferguson
As things are getting a bit better in Ferguson, though, the assholes are pouring out of the woodwork, and we’re going to hearing a fucktonne of shit:
Yeah, totes the same thing, dude. Fuck off, 1967. Thanks.
I’ve been wondering how they are going to spin this, because I’d bet anything that if the cop is convicted, it will be on a manslaughter charge, not murder. And I wish to fuck I wasn’t so damn cynical about the murder of an 18 year old, going to visit his grandma.
AT LAST!! a fuckwit that is just smart enough to realize we’re doing them a favor by highlighting their fuckwittery to them.
The Ustream from RealAlexJones has been up for about an hour at least. I caught a bit of marching before getting Little One and now they’re at the church.
Just crying over it. Been following this since PZ’s first post, thank you all for the updates and links. And pushing back against the fuckwits. I’ve been too upset to even try.
http://shiseido-red.tumblr.com/post/94741659808/we-the-undersigned-palestinian-individuals-and
Group gathers at historic Kelly Ingram Park in #Birmingham to speak out against what’s happening in #Ferguson.
Solidarity, from Sacramento, Calif
Hands up & moment of silence in LA’s Leimert Park.
Here in Malcolm X Park in DC. Hundreds of people rallying in support of #Ferguson. We stand against police brutality.
I think that’s a question in dire need of an answer.
This is Chicago, D.C., Orlando, NYC right now.
The contrast is stunning: contrast 1 contrast 2
1967:
You’re really that bent out of shape being told that you have a ‘sacred cow’?
More to the point, this whining from various corners about Pharyngula (or FtB) having a thought police is ridiculous. No one is telling you what you can think or how you can think. People who whine about the so-called “thought police” are complaining about being told to not discuss certain things in a particular thread, to not engage in a derail, that their words portray them as a shitty human being, or that this community does not approve of the use of certain words (like bigoted or sexist slurs). In no way is anyone policing your thoughts. In no way *CAN* anyone police your thoughts. What people (such as myself) would like to see is for people to police their own DAMN thoughts. I’d like to see people think more about what they say, how they say it, and when they say it*. Just because you have the right to say what you want doesn’t mean you should speak whatever comes to mind. Nor does your right to say what you want mean that you’re free from being criticized for your words.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of your speech, and that’s what most people whining about the “thought police” are really complaining about.
Another problem with your fucking whining in this thread is that a HUGE focus of this thread has been on bringing facts to light about the events in Ferguson. This is very important. Is it too much to ask that you table your concerns for another thread? Are your concerns that much more important than discussing the horrible situation in Ferguson? Again, think about what and when you speak your mind.
Going back to your comment upthread:
If you’d read the threads surrounding the shitstorm in Ferguson, you’d see that several of the regulars-myself included-felt that PZs words read as insensitive. I know, after reading this blog for years, that PZ was not trying to belittle those suffering from depression or with suicidal thoughts. However, not everyone was able to recognize that. He didn’t give enough thought to whether or not his sarcasm would be received by readers, and yes, he stepped in it.
My big problem though, is that so many people-just like you-want to focus on that misstep, rather than the bigger picture. Despite the fact that it’s been pointed out that he was being sarcastic, despite people agreeing that he was insensitive at points in the original thread on Robin Williams, far too many people are whining about that, while the civil rights of Americans are being violated. Like the media, I think the priorities of some of PZs detractors (note, I didn’t say *ALL*) are out of whack. You’ve expressed your criticism. Now do you have anything to add about the murder of Michael Brown? How about the status of race relations in this country? Anything about the disproportionate number of black people incarcerated? Perhaps you’d like to speak about white privilege? Maybe you want to say something about the militarization of the police in the US? How about the justified fear that many black people have of the police? Maybe the tyrannical actions of the police and SWAT in Ferguson? Perhaps you could address the celebrity culture in the US and how celebrities seem to be more important to a great many people than the civil rights violations of American citizens. Oh, I know, how about the suppression of the media in Ferguson? Unlawful arrest? Howzabout criticizing the media for overstating the looting and rioting in Ferguson?
There’s a host of other things you could talk about that directly relate to the OP.
*yes, I include myself in this. I’ve fucked up in the past. Recently in fact. I anticipate that I’ll fuck up again. I strive to ensure that I’ve given thought to the words that I post and that they reflect my values. I attempt to minimize the potential for misunderstanding by making every effort to convey my intent clearly. I aim to ensure that what I say is appropriate, and that when I say things is appropriate. I don’t always get it right, but it’s something to strive for.
Via Antonio French: Shots from the protest going on right now in front of the #Ferguson Police Dept
St. Louis Detective Kevin Bentley mingling with #ferguson crowd. “This is what we do.”
“We need each other to survive.”
Tony:
Especially when a link was provided to thunderdome, where they were free to rant away about whatever they liked.
Ferguson needs to fire their entire police, including their training division, and start over again, from scratch.
otherwise, it will be an entire generation before the community feels they can work with the police again.
Ichthyic:
I agree. I wish those contrast photos were being plastered everywhere. They need to be plastered everywhere.
Forgive me if this has already been posted:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/14/1321504/-Ferguson-Police-Tear-Gas-Reporters-then-Disassemble-Their-TV-Equipment
I didn’t know that they were disassembling the media equipment.
they also need to politely refuse advice and materials from the pentagon….
I can only imagine this is an ongoing experiment by the people who fund the pentagon to see what effect completely militarizing the police will have.
well, mission accomplished.
Look at this shit Steve King said about the protesters in Ferguson:
happened after they drove off the Al Jazeera folks. At first, they just pointed the cameras down to the ground. But evidently they then completely dismantled the rigs.
there is a lot more to answer in Ferguson than Mike Brown. Like I said, something went horribly wrong there, and the entire police department needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch to fix it. They need to reconnect to the community they are supposed to be protecting.
whether that will happen? All I can say is that they said the same thing after Rodney King and the resulting riots/police misconduct. And they at first looked like they were trying to do that…. never really got too far though. Now? pretty much the same as it ever was.
A man on a horse joined the protest.
“When I see a young lady cry because of fear of this uniform, that’s a problem.” Johnson said. “We’ve got to solve that.”
Oh my fucking god:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/14/kkk-raising-money-for-hero-ferguson-cop-who-shot-jewish-controlled-black-thug/
I thought they were claiming to not be a racist organization anymore.
lolwut?
Tony @ 186, that story has been surfacing on twitter feeds, too. It’s not just klan. All over twitter, right wing authoritarians are spreading stories about militant black hate groups, trying to twist the narrative of Ferguson, faked photos, and then there are libertarians who are content with scoffing and repeating things like “hey, animals.”. Then there are people like Matt Walsh, who wrote such egregious shit, it pains me to link it: themattwalshblog.com (I used do not link.)
There’s gonna be a backlash, and it will be bad. It’s already a very, very bad situation that the officer who shot Mike Brown has not been arrested, not been questioned, and not had his name released. There may be peace tonight in Ferguson, but this situation is far from over, and it doesn’t even begin to address the wider problem of systemic racism in the U.S., or how often bigots get away with horrible crimes.
My thanks to the tireless (it seems) efforts of Tony, Inaji, Ichthyic, and many others (you know how you are, the Pullet Patrol™ has noticed and has paid for your drinks for the rest of the year), for keeping Pharyngula up to date on the latest from Ferguson. A world of difference from last night so far, but tonight’s so far correct response should have been the response from the beginning. *Sigh*
Todd Starnes of FOX News thinks that protesters attacked the media
Inaji
This just absolutely breaks my heart. My nephew turns sixteen in a few days and he’s a big kid. Already over six feet and heavy, with the potential to be physically intimidating if he wasn’t such a quiet and easily cowed person. But he also has paler skin than his mother and so he will be safe walking down the street to visit his grandma. The police will look at over two hundred pounds of young man and be able to recognize that this is a child still, because he’s so pale.
How can anyone not have their fucking heart break over that nightmarish privilege denied to others? How can anyone see pictures of a smiling young man about to go out and start his life and not breakdown goddamn sobbing that his life was robbed simply because of the color of his skin? How can they look at a picture of Mike Brown and not recognize on a deep, emotional, gut-level that this is a travesty beyond measure?
In this entire cold universe, there is nothing else more like you than another human being. These young Black people killed were human beings. How can anyone not weep for that kinship, for that lost piece of humanity? How can anyone–I don’t care how fucking white they are–not collapse into a quivering mass of empathy, recognizing that our fellow human beings are being hunted and murdered?
Racism isn’t something that white people should be opposing because, gosh, it’s not very nice. They should be sickened down to their cores by it. They should be enraged. This isn’t happening to abstract ideas, to some nebulous “other” that it would be a swell idea to stop hurting. This is happening to our fellow humans. Our people. Our blood.
How can skin color get in the way of people mourning these murdered young people as their own blood?
Passing by to drop some notes about MSNBC tonight. First, Chris Hayes made good on his tweet yesterday and did his entire hour’s show live from the midst of the peaceful Ferguson crowd. He gave his mic to person after person to talk about their experiences with the protests, with police and traffic stops, about being ignored by their governor, and about the changes they want to see in the police departments and having the community’s needs addressed and voices heard. Random people got in the camera and waved signs, kids were everywhere, and it was disorganized and friendly and glorious. Chris Hayes is still there and will be broadcasting a second hour starting at 11PM Eastern (in slightly over one hour).
Maddow’s show has been multiple segments about sundown towns, about police militarization, about the nationwide protests going on in solidarity, and especially about the history of proper police response and de-escalation, starting out with a lead segment on Kent State and Madison, Wisconsin before it.
Racism, the ultimate in othering.
I grew up in the fifties when institutional racism was prevalent, but I didn’t know it. My mother was from Tennessee, and my father still uses the “n” word. It took several incidents, like on vacation in the south and actually seeing the “separate but equal” drinking fountains in a department store, where we stopped for a bio-break. It is hard to break the habit of such ingrained institutionalized racism. While I could intellectually see such racism, it really took me about 15 years to begin to feel it at the gut level when exposed to it. I think a lot of folks feel that “true racism” died a couple of decades ago. Boy, are they wrong. But it is easier to bury one’s head in the sands of ignorance, than to argue against the rich and powerful bigots.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-and-the-indifference-towards-the-lives-of-young-black-men/
Here’s where the next tragedy will likely happen:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/texas/article/First-National-Guard-troops-at-Texas-Mexico-border-5689738.php
The troops headed out to the border after a pep talk by our nit-wit governor.
I’ve been reading the racist comments about Ferguson in the opinion section of our local paper, and they truly make me want to puke. The rednecks here in Texas have absolutely no idea what life is like for the black citizens of St. Louis. I went to college there in the mid 70s and heard a lot from my classmates and friends.
My husband and i had one good friend in college who was very dark skinned. We were taken by surprise when we met her sister, who was light-skinned and naturally blond. Over drinks, they laughingly told us that their Mom was black and their Dad was white. There were eight children, and every other one was light skinned and every other one was dark skinned. They laughingly told us “Mom told Dad – One for me. One for you.”
They then proceeded to not-so-laughingly tell us about the strikingly different experiences that the siblings had in school and in life, depending upon the shade of their skin. I will never forget that evening’s conversation. It was the first time that my eyes were opened to blatant racism and white privilege in America.
It breaks my heart that things have gotten worse, not better after 30 years.
This is Starnes. No, he doesn’t think that.
He thinks saying that lie advances his own particular aims.
This song seems timely. Too bad we live in a society where it’s never not timely.
There is a very interesting comment in response by “Connie” there tracing the history of racial segregation in St Louis.
last paragraph:
This situation has been created over a very long period of time.
Even the Australian Murdoch media is giving this story a thorough write up
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/ferguson-barack-obama-calls-for-calm-after-violence-erupts-in-missouri-suburb/story-fnh81jut-1227025361486
Hopefully this is just too big to be just swept under the right wing carpet.
Ichthyic:
Yes. I lost count of the amount of times I saw white flight cited on #Ferguson. The people who live there, and in surrounding towns are very aware of what has taken place over a lengthy span of years.
@199, Ichthyic:
Re: block-busting, etc.:
That’s how the west side of Chicago was divided up in the 50s and 60s. It was finally stopped… but instead Chicago now operates by redlining instead. If you are black and go to a real estate agent in the Chicago area, you will be shown black neighborhoods. If you are white and go to that same agent, you will be shown white neighborhoods. Since the 1980s, when they switched tactics, this has basically turned Chicago and the suburbs into a checkerboard. Yeah, sure, Chicago is racially integrated… unless you zoom in the map.
There is seriously no fucking end to the shit the gatekeepers to power and money will pull if they aren’t watched continuously.
@200, Lofty:
Oh, it is. Which is why they’re switching to plan “B” and telling us how it’s all the citizens’ fault, vide the stuff already being reported above.
(Besides, since when has American media reported the same stories as the rest of the world?)
Yes. Well.
Racism.
Thing is though. Mr Williams likely died because of severe clinical depression.
I am a mental health nurse in the uk.
I see this.
Shocking deaths like this chill most people to the bone and they should.
Feels like on this blog, his death is being used as a battering ram. To highlight racism and prejudice
I just want to say…
Let the media dissect this one suicide. Some good journalism on it over here in UK
The next big fight if for the removal of the stigma of mental illness
http://bit.ly/1q8eKGQ
Vets on Ferguson.
https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson
THE BLOODY HELL!?
tonyatkinson (#203)
Who doesn’t give a fuck about what racism does to the mental health of people of color, apparently. Shame on you.
your instincts are terrible. don’t quit your day job.
And because many people are trying to distribute false information about the looting in Ferguson, there is information about the 10 arrested looters here, and none of them were from or lived in Ferguson. One man was from Texas.
Any discussion about mental health that demands people of color’s struggles with racism be set aside is the wrong kind of discussion to have. We don’t need any more non-intersectional advocacy movements.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Ichthyic (#[8]07)
Actually, they probably should quit, given what their job is.
tonyatkinson:
Lovely of you to illustrate why racism is such a terrible, endemic problem, not just in the States, but all over the world.
Kindly fuck off now, won’t you? Ta.
Glenn Greenwald’s latest on Ferguson and the militarization of police. (Intercept link)
This goddamn shitstorm has unfortunately created emotional disdain and hatred of Robin Williams for me. I loved the guy, was very upset he died, and particularly saddened that he took his own life several days ago.
But right fucking now? My current mental response to the thought of Robin Williams is “FUCK Robin Williams.” And that’s not good. And I’m not happy about that. But goddammit fuck fuck fuckity FUCK Robin Williams.
I will probably regret this rant, but fucking hell…
Sorry.
Wrong venue?
Just wanted to say something about depression and suicide.
In light of his sad death.
Stigma. Social exclusion of people with mental illness. Institutional racism in service provision. Attitudes to schizophrenia. Media sensationalism.
It was the starting point of this whole discussion?
Thought this was for comments on that as well?
Don’t even dare use the word “just”.
Sing it. It so way past time that we stop setting aside just how much racism factors into everything, every tiny daily act, moment to moment. Poverty and mental health issues often go hand in hand. Same with racism. I have PTSD, I’ve had it for a very long time. However, I’m able to easily pass for Whitey McWhite White, so I don’t have to live with the day to day suspicions, harassment, microaggressions, and aggressions that POC live with all their lives. I don’t have to live with the knowledge that I, or someone I love will be gunned down in the street by police. Seems to me that living with such things from the moment you arrive on the planet would grind you down to a point that it would feel like you have PTSD squared, to say the least. People who keep trying to keep racism in box, all neat and separate from everything else are a major part of the reason we still struggle with racism so much.
No, we don’t. We could seriously use a whole lot less of thoughtless people who can’t be arsed to read the comments in the previous thread, over 700 comments, and can’t be arsed to read the 700+ comments in this one before they decide to weigh in, right, Nurse Atkinson?
“But right fucking now? My current mental response to the thought of Robin Williams is “FUCK Robin Williams.” And that’s not good. And I’m not happy about that. But goddammit fuck fuck fuckity FUCK Robin Williams.
I will probably regret this rant, but fucking hell…”
Maybe there’s an Atlantic divide.
Big news in the uk is this, Iraq and gaza. Oh, and robin Williams and the illness he had no control over.
Journalists here are saying things like ” it was a selfish act” really , really misjudging the condition
tonyatkinson:
First, thank you. People have been discussing PZ’s post and mental illness in Thunderdome, an open thread, starting around #360. We have been trying to discuss events in Ferguson and the murder of Mike Brown in this thread. Please feel free to click over to thunderdome, and discuss whatever you like there, and people will be happy to talk with you.
Also, I’m sorry I jumped. We’ve had an awful lot of assholes showing up, and some of us are heartsick and bone weary from covering events in Ferguson.
Monitor Note
tonyatkinson
Depression is, indeed, a serious topic. This thread, however, is not on that subject.
The uk has racism too. It runs deep.
I don’t think it is as bad here though. I think the civil rights movement here had much more successful much earlier on in our history.
Our police have institutionalised racism, but we addressed much of that after the Lawrence enquiry.
Young black boy stabbed by thugs- poor police investigation- mired by racist and lazy investigating
tonyatkinson:
Here, there was non-stop coverage of Williams, and almost none on the murder of Mike Brown, or the takeover of the town by a police force gone rogue military. There were 5 days of mass amounts of teargas (people being teargassed in their own yards), snipers sighting people, rubber bullets being fired into crowds, people wounded, illegal arrests being made, stun grenades lobbed at people, blinding lights and LDAPs being used. That barely begins to cover it, and you want to know where the news was coming from for days? Twitter. Yep, twitter. Because celebrity culture ate the news, and no one thought the murder of an 18 year old man, on the way to see his grandma, was worth covering.
Back to Mr. Williams though, it’s not just the UK journalists being insensitive, ignorant arses. A Fox news correspondent called him a coward.
So…we’re all a bit pissy.
tonyatkinson
Sorry, looks like you got the message, and we cross-posted.
tonyatkinson:
Heh. In the States, pretty much anyone who isn’t white is considered a thug.
Thankyou inaji
Sorry everyone. I seem to have stumbled upon and then intruded on an understandably emotive and frightening event in the US -that has coincided with the death of a celebrity.
I’ll have a look in thunderdome.
I will look up ferguson though……Over here ferguson was the manager of Manchester United football club.
tonyatkinson:
Just stroll through the comments in this thread (there are two pages) – all the stuff in red text is a link.
Fucking hell inaji.
I’m sorry I didn’t know. Honestly. I mean if it wasn’t reported there then u can imagine how little we get over here. Thank god for the internet.
It’s fucking mad over there. What’s Obama doing? Surely he’s not burying his head is he? Of all people .
Inaji #222
Oddly, in the UK, the most common adjective placed before “thug” seems to be “racist.” So much so that even without the adjective, it brings to mind an image of a skinhead. I’m so used to that combination that I was actually quite shocked when I found out that it was something of a racist euphemism for “black” in the states.
(Sorry, kinda OT I know, but sort of not, too.)
Just read obamas statement.
Described over here as “carefully measured”
You need an inquiry after this. Over here very, very senior police officers would , eventually be held to account
Government might fall over here if that happened. I hope.
tonyatkinson:
Our president released a statement about Mike Brown’s murder and the situation in Ferguson, a very long time after he released a statement about Robin Williams death. Apparently, he was briefed last night while attending a birthday party in Martha’s Vineyard. Outside of that, he hasn’t done much. See comment #69 for an excerpt. People haven’t been terribly impressed.
The best twitter feeds for information are: https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench and https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=hash
All day to day, there have been protests, vigils, and marches throughout the United States.
Yes.
Thug is often, in fact usually prefaced by racist.
White power thugs and all that.
Never here black people being referred to as thugs
Language is weird.
In UK , nobody says “people of color” or as we would say- colour. It’s black. African black, Afro Caribbean black etc if you want more geographical origins.
Obama.
What do democrats think if him?
It’s not world news thus yet. We still angry re : Israel. And their brutal attack on gaza. And the menace of the horrific ISIS jihadists in Syria/Northern Iraq.
Oh, and robin fucking Williams .
I seem to have changed my tune on him
Daz:
It is a euphemism for black. Hispanic, too. I can imagine your shock. This shit just runs so deep that people don’t even think about it. This is highlighted by the http://iftheygunnedmedown.tumblr.com/ – if a young white man is wearing a hoodie, he’s just a young white guy. If a young black man is wearing a hoodie, he’s a dangerous thug.
tonyatkinson:
Not much.
So, apparently I can’t add. Ichthyic’s was comment #[7]07. Why the fuck does WordPress or whatever even allow comment numbers to start over like that? Ugh.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Daz (#[7]26)
Interesting history to the word “thug.”
By the way, you know that “urban” is another of those racist euphemisms for “black,” right?
Um, tonyatkinson, you might want to (in the vernacular) check yourself before you wreck yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blair_Peach
These are just the three I could come up with off the top of my head. If you honestly think police in Britain are less racist than the ones in the UK, then it would be generous to say you’ve had your head in the sand, and not somewhere else rather nastier.
Note that de Menezes was killed by mistaken identity; Duggan was just plain murdered; Blair Peach was at an anti-racist demonstration.
http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/raceinbritain/policeandracism.pdf
Please do look into it, before you make pronouncements about what is or isn’t going on in racism in Britain. Hell, ask Avicenna, whose blog is right here on FtB, about whether or not there’s any racist problems with the police in Britain. He’s from Manchester, and he’s South Asian.
How do I know this? Because I’m from there myself. When we moved here to Canada, when I was 10, I spent the first three weeks of my existence being pulled out from under piles of people, because I didn’t know any better yet than to call PoC by the racist names I’d learned growing up in Watford, and which my parents used all the time. Every Asian was a P—, Middle Easterners were all w–s and every Black person was a n—– or a S—- or a s—- or all kinds of other nastiness. I don’t think I need to fill in any of those blanks for you, do I? I learned better, thank fuck, and now I try to open the eyes of other white people to the shit that most of us pull.
For Canadians, before you start climbing into the saddle of your very tall horse:
Fact Sheet on Police Violence against the African Community in Canada (Updated in July 2013)
That the UK and Canadian gun culture doesn’t support the level of lethal violence that the US’ does, please don’t think it’s because we’re morally superior.
We just don’t have as many easy ways of murdering people.
FTFM.
A black man in a hoodie over here?
Same thing. Police stop and search him. Shop keepers eye him.
Actually though. Over here at the moment it’s Eastern European immigrants. Those from Romania, etc who are the victims of bigotry.
Daily Mail newspaper rants about them taking our jobs and living off social security.
When actually – immigrants have been proven to contribute more to GDP than they cost in UK
Misinformation . Misdirection.
The true enemy is the widening gap of wealth distribution. Bankers. All that.
We aren’t fighting in the streets just yet though.
Police are corrupt. But not as twisted as yours it seems
The problem was never with Robin Williams, the person. The problem was how news of his suicide was used to not talk about ongoing news of a very tense situation.
Yeah I knew about “urban,” though I’m led to believe it’s somewhat context-related as well, and may still be used safely (if that’s the word) in its correct meaning if the context’s clear. “Inner city” had much the same connotation here, some years back.
To add to CaitieCat‘s list: Harry Stanley, for not much more than being perceived to be Irish.
I doff my cap a. Noyd.
I stand corrected. To a degree.
Thank goodness for our firearms control in the UK
It’s just when I read the extent what’s going on over thee right now….
This sound big. historically significant? As big as Obama being elected ?
Teargassing in their own yards? Police gone rogue military?
Maybe I’m reading it wrong
Urban.
Urban is good over here. Musical genre. Music of black origin. But multi-ethnic
Daz (#[7]38)
Well, that deniability is kind of why the racists find it so useful.
~*~*~*~*~*~
tonyatkinson (#[7]40)
I think you mean to CaitieCat, unless you found the Thuggee article unexpectedly compelling.
The police here are bad. Poor, very poor race relations. Stop and search laws are the real sticking point for most blacks I know.
Their cars are stopped. They are stopped when they walk the street. On their way to work.
Police shootings are rare . Black and other ethnics don’t feel like they are. There’s a legitimate mistrust of the police.
Young black men die in police cells than any other race in the uk.
But this thing over there…
And the right ring media you have reporting it? Or not reporting it? Or even condoning it
It just wouldn’t pan out like this in the uk .
MM @ 191:
Some people get it. Crowd of 200 at #mikebrown vigil swelled to 1000. Wearing red armbands to show we’re all ‘cut from the same cloth’
I echo inaji
Another American revolution?
And while your at it…
Sort out your ( and be default the uk’s) abysmal foreign policies
Umm. I get what you mean. I was thinking more along the lines of description of infrastructure as urban as opposed to rural; that kind of thing. That the word hadn’t become so tainted it was impossible to use in any context. Maybe I’m wrong. I tend to avoid it on US-dominated blogs etc anyway, in a kinda better safe than sorry way.
Back on the main topic, does anyone feel up to explaining how it took so long for outside police forces to be brought into Ferguson. I’m assuming it’s some sort of jurisdictional thing, like states Vs federal, etc?
Sorry, the first bit of my previous was @A. Noyd #242
Apparently the STL prosecutor is upset:
Via #AntonioFrench
Happening now. Times Square shut down due to protestors standing with #Ferguson
DON’T SHOOT in lights, NYC
tonyatkinson:
You aren’t.
This from ABC (Australia) online:
Ferguson atmosphere ‘almost festive’ after shift in policing of Michael Brown protests
We seem to be getting more coverage from online than TV over here. Just had a 10 second spot on ABC TV news channel followed by another story on… (guess)
Like everyone here has been saying – 24 hour news channels and not enough air-time to report it? Really?
tonyatkinson #245
You don’t read our vaunted printed press then, I take it? Here’s a good place to begin.
Seriously, I see this a lot from fellow Brits, and it drives me up the wall. We may be a bit quieter or euphemistic about it, and not have the guns to make it so obvious (nothing’s quite as obvious as a corpse) but we have much the same problems.
It’s now. 6.30 am here and I’m still up. I have in mind to watch some US news on this . so I can get some balanced perspective. Some gravitas regards the historical significance of these events on the state of current US race relations in the US in 2014
FOX news any good?
LOL, no.
Daz (#[7]46)
Ahhh, gotcha. I think it’s pretty safe to use for things related to cities. Highly questionable when used in relation to groups of people. There are terms like “urban fiction” (not to be confused with “urban fantasy“) that might be exceptions. (Granted, since I don’t know, I’m leery to use it. The n-word is hardly the only thing that can significantly change meaning coming out of a white person’s mouth.)
@252, tonyatkinson:
FOX news is targeted at the sort of person who sees the coverage of Ferguson and feels sympathetic towards the cops. Many (most?) of the viewers probably would, if answering honestly, say that they think not enough black people were shot. All of them would complain that not being able to express that preference in public without being viewed as racist is a sign of some sort of moral failing in modern culture.
Some of the people who work for FOX news are possibly mere cynics making a buck off of the hatred of the ignorant. Some of them probably share in the ignorant hatred themselves. All of them, however, are the sorts of people who, if a genie offered them a choice between curing cancer worldwide and having really perfect hair for the rest of their lives, would choose the hair.
Find some other coverage. Almost ANYTHING will be better.
watching fox news as representative of the States is like reading Pravda as representative of the real Russia.
for tony:
for general news feeds, Reuters isn’t too bad, but if you want real in depth coverage with a view towards representing reality instead of fiction, I can’t recommend Rachel Maddow highly enough:
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show
Thanks for info, vicar . Insight I didn’t entirely know but I was kinda using sarcastic humour.
add another one who just raised his hand to be replaced.
I swear, STL might be even more fucked up than central L.A.
@257.
Thanks. And aljazera for Middle East news is good .
Before you get back to business at hand-
Re; 254. Urban.
There is no risky use if urban in UK I don’t think. Not mainstream.
Infrastructure, cities, images of graffiti are conjured. As is urban music- rap etc. black origin
No negative usages. Not used as a slur generally.
Nerd
Oh, yeah. My first time through university, studying community development, was like that; these are progressive people who care deeply about poverty, urban design, and so forth, and it was still like pulling goddamned teeth to get them to actually discuss institutional racism in a present-day context.
Correction to the above “…progressive white people…”.
tonyatkinson:
Al Jazeera was teargassed and driven off by police in Ferguson, who then dismantled their cameras. Raw video here:
http://www.ksdk.com/videos/news/local/2014/08/14/14042891/
Watching ‘The Drum’ (on ABC again) – they actually did a story on Ferguson that was going… OK… Until one of the commentators *had* to mention ‘what about black people shooting black people?’ And intimated that was the real problem in the US.
Sigh.
tonyatkinson,
The vocabulary of racism in the UK shifts depending upon who you are and where you are. In an inner-city and totally mixed community where all shop at the same shops and go to the same school, the word urban just has its dictionary meaning and can be applied happily to music, style of dress, traffic problems.
In a mixed but classically hierarchical set-up, the white people at the top will be mightily careful with their language but less so with their attitudes. So no Black person makes it past the lowest rank of management. They would only use urban of town planning questions.
It’s when you get out into chocolate-box-cottage-land that urban takes on a wholly negative cast. It isn’t simply city versus country because this is not true of the places undoubtedly rural – see PZ’s adventures in Yorkshire – but which have long and strong traditions of trades unionism, self-organisation in co-ops (and going off to build a new church when they have a theological ruckus with the minister) and uppity, working women it’s different again so what racism there may be is subliminal. I don’t say it doesn’t exist.
I always wonder about people who say things like ‘true racism’ without the scare quotes.
Like… What would ‘untrue racism’ look like, and do they actually think that would somehow be morally acceptable?
What about white people shooting white people? that’s the REAL problem in the US…
or maybe it’s all just a fucking red herring and those stats are simply due to the fact that most violence in ALL countries is domestic.
One of the first TV bits that I saw about Ferguson (a couple days into it), was white folks buying guns. The shop owner said that they were “taking personal responsibility”.
It looked like standard gun fondlers, at least what I saw.
—
One picture somewhere showed a line of those militarized cops in the night. One of them had his hands up — it looked like he was mocking the protestors’ “hands up, don’t shoot” gesture.
SourceFed on Ferguson.
Comment for PZ critics: If you think PZ was insensitive on the issue, read what Rush Flushman said on his show:
https://proxy.freethought.online/dispatches/2014/08/14/limbaugh-robin-williams-killed-himself-because-hes-liberal/#comments
OMG. Just heard on NPR (Fri 8/15/14 7:57am EST) – the lead sentence in a shamefully brief story on the militarization of local police departments:
“Ferguson has been dominating the news this week,”
I kid you not.
I also note and agree with what other commenters poiunted out, that the media in general began paying more attention when journalists became police targets. And now that the Williams story is several days old, interest has tapered off and there’s room in the news stream for other stories.
I generally get my news from NPR (National Public Radio), and i have been bitterly disappointed at their shamefully thin coverage of events in Ferguson over the past week. I dont watch TV (very vulnerable to nightmares from horrific images) so I listen to radio and read online.
I wonder if the lack of media coverage, especially in the first few days of the brutal police response to the grief and outrage in that community, was interpreted by the Ferguson police leadership [spits!] as a tacet endorsment of what they were doing, Now that I’ve typed that, yep, that seems about right.
The tardy, “measured” response of high-level officials is shameful. President Obama should have called Gov. Nixon on the first day to request that the Governor take action to get that police department under control.The President cannot command a Governor, but certainly a call from the White House would get the Governor’s attention, especially if the President had made the fact of that call public. To let that horrible situation fester and devolve over several days — without using the authority of their offices to influence events — is tantamount to endorsing the police brutality.
I am indebted to so many people in this thread who provided all the updates and links and showed enormous resolve and perseverence and integrity and strength in sharing expriences and explaining what should be obvious to people who are committed to their state of denial. You all help me retain a little faith in humanity.
magistramarla @ 196 [696]
My sister and I inherited very different looks as far as ethnic background goes, too. I knew that I had privilege because of how pale I am, but it hit me like a suckerpunch a few years ago when my sister was trying to get public assistance and she was repeatedly asked for proof of American citizenship. They kept giving her the runaround about it and refusing copies of birth certificates, to the point that she was incapable of getting assistance for months. Her kids didn’t have healthcare and barely had food for months because some racist fucks figured someone who looked like her couldn’t be American.
A. Noyd @ 209 [709]
QFT. Mental health is also an issue of racial justice. When chronic illnesses and traumatic/stressful events are risk factors for developing depression and are the result of racial inequality, the two cannot be separated without being blatantly racist.
Inaji @ 244 [744]
Thank you for sharing that link. I needed it.
Oh. Fuck.
Ten Things White People Can Do About Ferguson Besides Tweet
I did not know that about the ACLU app. That is a fantastic idea.
Police have just released the name of the officer who murdered Brown.
Nothing much going on, then the mainstream media show up and get gassed and arrested, and suddenly, thing start to start to start to improve.
Just wanted to provide a citation for my comment about NPR at #272 above. It was in the intro to the Marketplace Morning Report on NPR’s Morning Edition program. Here is a link to the story:
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/swat-teams-are-growing-presence-law-enforcement
The text version includes only the reporter’s story, and not the host’s spoken intro. But if you listen to the audio version, you will hear the quote (“Ferguson, Missouri, has been dominating the news this week”) — it’s the first sentence in the audio link.
gobi’s sockpuppet’s meatpuppet
Long before they got into the discussion, the introduction, and the brief promo during the afternoon news service, was basically equating looting and tear gas. My teeth were almost ground to powder before the damn discussion even started.
I had read about the military equipment flooding into police departments a few weeks before this happened, and damn if it didn’t play out like the worried ones were worried about. Armored vehicles and guns pointed at citizens. Dammit, it was foreseeable.
Last night was a good night, though. I hope it becomes clear that some of the protests were against the militarized police presence. The citzens who stood up to that desrve all honor.
The looting aspect needs to be cleared up well. I understand that it was out-of-town opportunists, and was not the immediate response of the neighborhood, but it is what the YouTube commentariat takes away from the situation. They talk as if a burnt business can’t be cleaned up and replaced, and as if a dead man means less than material goods.
Obama should be ashamed of himself and his actions and lack thereof.
Mellow Monkey @273
I hope that your sister and her kids got the help that they needed! It’s sad that women and children have to deal with the assholes just to get basic necessities.
My beautiful daughter-in-law is from Mexico and she deals with the same attitudes here in Texas.
Her baby looks just like his Dad, my son, except that he has very curly hair from his Mom. People stare at her and can’t believe that the white baby that she is carrying is really hers.
My son accompanies her to doctor appointments, etc. since no one will take her seriously.
I’ve heard her say that she’s glad that the baby looks so much like his father, since that will make his life so much easier. That simply breaks my heart. I want my grandson to grow up being very proud of both of his parents and both of the cultures that make up his background. I don’t want him to have to hide his Mexican heritage just to get along in life.
I’m also hoping that they will later have a little girl, and that she will look just like her gorgeous mother.
For the sakes of my grandchildren, your nieces and nephews and all of the next generation of every background, I hope that things get better! We are all going to need to work to make things better.
Thanks for the link, Tony.
Sez the KKK:
As if we needed any more proof that ‘thug’ is just the new code word for ‘nigger’.
But, what’s Zog? I’m not familiar with that term. (I probably don’t wanna know, but unfortunately, ignorance isn’t bliss, it’s just…ignorance.)
Ferguson police claim Michael Brown was a robbery suspect.
If they have evidence or even suspicion that Johnson was an accomplice to a robbery, why haven’t they questioned him yet?
Nate Silver seems to have gotten the memo that he was a dufus.
Required reading on race, Michael Brown and Ferguson, Mo.
And this made me tear up big time: With Highway Patrol, hugs and kisses replace tear gas in Ferguson
It appears that Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson were identified as the robbers in surveillance videos of the convenience store robbery. IMO, this casts doubt on Dorian Johnson’s credibility as a witness. I think it is best to wait for more information before drawing conclusions about the events in Ferguson, MO.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Is it just me or does the alleged robber in the security camera pics released by the police look absolutely nothing like Brown?
Available regionally as needed!
dianne, I had the same thought. I’ve seen reports that Johnson told the FBI about shoplifting some cigarillos, though.
Observer15, even if it were true that Micheal Brown did just shoplifted, how does that justify the cop shooting him and leaving him to bleed out on the street?
I don’t buy it.
It took them 5 days to cobble together some story, in an attempt to justify murdering Brown.
If this was actually the case, we would have been hearing about it earlier.
dianne, you aren’t the only one: https://twitter.com/ART_TheGOD/status/500314979846094848/photo/1
Also: I was unaware that stealing one fucking box of cigars, unarmed, was an offense so heinous in this country that it warrants immediate capital punishment. The things you learn.
In other words, for all bringing up the “robbery” angle: take your “robbery” handwaving and shove it right up your ass.
lochbaber@289
The fact they think it does pisses me off very badly.
Stealing the cigarillos is only kinda-sorta relevant if the police officer knew about the theft and thought Brown & Johnson were suspects when he approached them. Even then, it only explains why the police would have had reason to interact with them. It in no way justifies shooting Brown, leaving his body exposed for so long, or using unnecessary force against protesters/mourners. It’s a great red herring, though—I’m sure the PD loves that.
observer15:
We should wait on more information before we condemn a police officer for shooting an unarmed teen?
He was shot unarmed, with his hands in the air. Even if he had just walked away from a fucking mass murder , he still wasn’t dangerous and the police weren’t justified to turning an arrest into an extrajudicial killing. I mean, fucking seriously. We have police who have properly arrested and detained spree shooters, serial killers, and bombers. But apparently “he stole cigars from a convenience store and pushed the clerk to get away” technically qualifies as “robbery” so people will bleat out “robbery” to excuse for the police, hoping people will imagine that he just stole thousands of dollars at gunpoint or something, without at all bothering to acknowledge that even if THAT were true, it still wouldn’t justify what fucking happened.
So again, fuck everyone who brings up “robbery” like it excuses a fucking thing about this. Fuck your dishonesty and fuck your utter lack of empathy and moral standards.
If the police officers were thinking of Brown as a suspect in a robbery, why did they just yell at him to get on the sidewalk from the car instead of pulling over, getting out of the car, and confronting him with the suspicion? The initial story doesn’t match police looking for a robbery suspect at all.
Trigger warning on anteprepro’s link in #290. There’s an image of Michael Brown’s body in the street.
An immediate, public execution, sans trial. Under $10 worth of property is apparently worth more than this young man’s life to some people.
I hope the DOJ is actually doing a decent investigation, including separating and questioning everyone in that damned police department.
The whole department should burn. Be completely dismantled, and the officer be facing serious murder charges.
Not that I’m going to hold my breath…
Thank you Mellow Monkey. I was careless and forgot to provide a trigger warning myself. Because holy fucking damn, does it need one.
Also, not only is this tactic from the police classic victim blaming, it seems incredibly contrived that they are just bringing out this excuse now. In addition, the Ferguson PD’s credibility is damn near zero right now. I almost hope they are proven to be fabricating this excuse and it will be one more reason for every single one of them to be fired.
Observer15, try reading this book, Black Like Me, where a white reporter darkened his skin and lived for a while as a black in the south prior to the civil rights acts in the 60’s. You might gain some perspective on what it is to be institutionally discriminated against.
From I Fucking Love Science , this image points out what media should be reporting vs what they are reporting.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men
observer15
Because lifting some cheap convenience store cigars, unarmed, totes justifies the use of lethal force. Fuck off back to whatever rock you crawled out from under.
Yeah, the timing on the “robbery” excuse is just rancid. And, as has been said, would justify nothing, if true. The cop should have been calling for backup if the situation in any way justified the shooting. I once saw some kids leaving a convenience store, realized they had just stolen something, and did not shoot them.
The situation in Ferguson was soon about the militarized police, no matter the original cause of the protests. The very fact that large numbers of heavily armed and armored police were pointing guns at people who were just walking down the street is well documented, and good evidence that the original officer probably did exactly that — went into a peaceful situation with a bad attitude and a big gun.
Yeah, the friend might be lying. That is the problem with eyewitness accounts. The facts are that a young black man was killed by a white police officer, and his body left in the street for four hours, and the rest of the police force came in like an invading army, guns and attitudes and armored cars, firing tear gas and inflicting harm to those who would not obey their unreasonable demands. Which is pretty much what the friend says the original officer was doing. The police are convicted by their own action.
Notice that the police just released the officer’s name. (And say that he is devastated.) They kept it secret for reasons that add up to them having the idea that the crazy black folks would do something wrong. It was disrespectful, again, to not release it.
Back to the robbery excuse to say that some white folks seem to think that a box of cigars is of greater value than a black man’s life. And that they think that black folks should be doing what they are told.
I was sitting on a subway car one day that was empty except for me and a teenager. The kid started scratching graffiti in the window right in front of me. I gave her a “give me a fucking break” look and she stopped. I am a completely unintimidating chubby middle aged woman. In short, the least threatening looking person imaginable. If my looking at a kid can stop them from committing a (minor) crime, then how can it be that the police, with their institutional backup and presumed training in how to stop criminal activity can’t stop (minor) crimes without shooting teenagers?
I’ve not completely caught up on this thread yet, but someone linked to this on another forum:
Trigger warning: This a police forum where they are talking about the Ferguson situation. Think of the worst rightwing authoritarian circle jerk you can imagine. Now, make them all active or former police. Now make it at least ten times worse than you thought.
http://forums.officer.com/t195139/
Goodbye Enemy Janine #288-
“Observer15, even if it were true that Micheal Brown did just shoplifted, how does that justify the cop shooting him and leaving him to bleed out on the street?”
It wouldn’t by itself. But the police report shows that the police were looking for two people who fit a specific description including the clothes they wearing. That would seem to rule out racial profiling as the reason for the stop.
Dianne #295-
“If the police officers were thinking of Brown as a suspect in a robbery, why did they just yell at him to get on the sidewalk from the car instead of pulling over, getting out of the car, and confronting him with the suspicion? The initial story doesn’t match police looking for a robbery suspect at all.”
That is Dorian Johnson’s story. We don’t know what actually happened and Dorian Johnson could be lying since he was a suspect in the robbery. I would like more information.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls #295-
“Observer15, try reading this book, Black Like Me, where a white reporter darkened his skin and lived for a while as a black in the south prior to the civil rights acts in the 60′s. You might gain some perspective on what it is to be institutionally discriminated against.”
I hear you. I know that police misconduct occurs and that it most often is directed toward minorities. But that doesn’t tell us what happened in Ferguson, MO.
What more do you need to know about what happened in Ferguson? If you find out that Mike Brown did, in fact, steal some cigars, what then? Does that mean Darren Wilson was justified in killing him? This faux neutrality is not going to fool anyone here.
Nor do you, presenting the “official line” of bullshit from RW sources.
That’s multiple people’s “story” and if Johnson is a suspect in a robbery, why wasn’t he arrested or at least questioned at the time of the initial confrontation? Why doesn’t the man in the picture look anything like Brown? And even if I’m totally wrong, how does that justify shooting an unarmed man who had his hands in the air in surrender? Not to mention several other unarmed people in the next few days? And why do you believe Wilson’s story? We know that Wilson shot an unarmed man, he even admits it. Doesn’t that make him an unreliable witness?
@306, observer15:
This doesn’t pass Occam’s razor:
1. Why didn’t the cops say anything about it at the time of the initial confrontation with Brown?
2. Why did the cops believe that shoplifting validated shooting an unarmed man in the back?
3. Why didn’t the police release this report immediately on the first day?
4. Why didn’t the police release this report when the press began to call for comments?
5. Why didn’t the police release this report in an attempt to stop the protestors?
6. Why didn’t the police shout this report from bullhorns when the press was watching?
If you seriously believe that a bunch of thugs who were teargassing people in their own fucking yards are being honest about this now, you are, frankly, a cretin.
the clothes don’t match, though. in one photo there is a young man wearing sandals, and in another the young man wore running shoes.
seperate eyewitness accounts all say that Darren Wilson didn’t even get out of the car before he shot mike brown. And then he got out of the car, walked toward mike brown, and shot him four. more. times.
so seriously, fuck off with this nonsense. There is no circumstance where anyone deserved to get shot over swisher sweets. The damn cop didn’t even get out of the car. come on now. this willful confusion isn’t a good look.
Intriguing:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown
UPDATE
NYT, which was previously studiously burying the news, now reports a top headline that directly assassinates Brown’s character. Fuck them.
White St. Louis Has Some Awful Things to Say About Ferguson
Michael Brown is front page and headlines today in France on Le Monde. They even sent a reporter to Ferguson. But the reporter can’t speak English very well, is making some dumb mistakes like thinking “police officer” means a policeman with a special status, you know, like an officer in the army.
They’ve got an article on the role of Anonymous in getting officials to give the name of the cop that killed Brown.
As for the shoplifting that the press is calling a “robbery”, if it did even happen, it’s beside the point. If M.B. were white and he shoplifted before getting shot and killed by the police, what would be apparent to all is the disproportion between the alleged offense and police response. But as M.B. was black, the shoplifting detail doesn’t appear for what it is: inconsequential. Instead, it feeds into and activates a stereotype of young black men as dangerous out-of-control criminals who don’t deserve the same basic human rights the rest of us are supposed to enjoy. Black people shouldn’t have to be innocent angels to deserve rights.
As for the video from the store, it’s too blurry for me to make much of it. But if somebody faked that video, they deserve to get the book thrown at them.
Meanwhile, Vox:
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/15/6005587/ferguson-satire-another-country-russia-china
Xi’s comments were widely taken as an indication that China would begin arming moderate factions in Missouri, in the hopes of overpowering rogue regime forces and preventing extremism from taking root. An unknown number of Kurdish peshmerga military “advisers” have traveled to the region to help provide security. Gun sales have been spiking in the US since the crisis began.
observer15:
We KNOW what happened in Ferguson, Mo. An 18 year old unarmed young man, on the way to see his grandma, was gunned down, because a cop didn’t like him walking in the street. Then, a police force went military rogue and swallowed a town for 5 fucking days.
What is it you observe, observer15? Your own navel?
@antenepro #312-
That’s the reason why we should wait for more information. Too many unanswered questions and discrepancies in the stories. The police still haven’t explained how it was that an unarmed man was killed 35 feet from the car or what justified the killing. I think the Federal authorities will sort all of this out in due time.
One more time, for the idiots in the room (lookin’ at you, observer15), from the link in Anteprepro’s @313:
“This robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown,” he said.
“It had nothing to do with the stop” that led to the shooting, Jackson said.
Asked why Officer Wilson stopped Brown, the police chief said because Brown and his friend “were walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic.”
observer15:
What in the fuck makes you think anything justified this murder? It is not justified, that’s kind of the point, you fuckwitted dipshit.
BREAKING: Why was #Ferguson PD still looking for the suspect 7 hours after Brown had been killed?
observer15
Please answer my question from #307. I’ll even be helpful and quote it for you:
What possible information could come to light that would justify any of this?
Interesting background on Ferguson PD here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html
It is reasonably called a robbery. Physical force is used in the course of the theft. We know it’s in the course of the theft because the thief, whoever that thief may be, used the force inside the store and the items weren’t technically stolen until the thief left the store without paying.
I’m fine with robbery. I don’t want to erase the assault that someone suffered by calling it shoplifting.
It still had nothing to do with the Brown stop or Wilson’s shooting of Brown.
Report: Ferguson Cop ID’d As Unarmed Teen’s Killer Left The Area Days Ago
Man Dies After Bloody, 10-Minute Beating From LAPD Officers
Scary.
Scary 2.
Scary 3.
Scary 4.
(Four tweets that come in sequence, painting a rather spooky picture of what may happen regarding the robbery and murder of Mike Brown.)
Eye-witness tweets to the shooting. That’s another trail of corroborating information.
Crip Dyke,
I thought you might correct me on that one. I typed it wondering if my complaint was legit. You do admit though that the words conjure significantly different scenarios in the minds of the public?
The Day Ferguson Copes Were Caught in a Bloody Lie. TW for graphic image. But yeah… Wow.
In the you are not fucking helping department:
rq @ 332, link already posted @ 325.
Inaji
Oops, I had a bunch of tabs and forgot which came from where. :P Sorry! (Better posted than not, I suppose…)
Observer15, you are so badly missing the points, and so badly pretending to be the calm and reasonable one, that you are sounding like a troll.
The facts of Ferguson are that a man was killed in a manner quite consisent with patterns of bad police behavior, and the rest of the police force then began behaving very, very badly. The trigger incident is almost trivial now, the big issue is that militarized cops invaded a town, threatening and attacking Amercan citizens. Our country is in peril, and you are ignoring that to pretend that the tyrants have right and reason on their side.
Yes, I said the initial shooting is almost trivial. Sadly, it was just another cop murdering a man of color. Sickeningly wrong, but routine in this country. Even the protest being shut down and misconstrued is all too common.
What was horrifyingly new was militarized police in combat gear invading an American town and pointing assault rifles at the citizens they were supposed to protect and to serve, attacking peaceful protestors and acting as tyrants who demand obedience, attacking and arresting journalists, roughing them up and shutting them down.
The people did not deserve that treatment, and they stood up to the tyranny. They showed decent response to decent police, and all Americans should be proud and grateful to them.
Now, if you take that entire mess, and extrapolate back to one citizen and one policeman, you have no reason to wait for or to trust the police. But even if you choose to, and even if it were true that the man was a robber and the cop was a righteous shooter, it doesn’t change the scenes of the past week, nor does it change the fact that men of color are so routinely killed that innocent-man-and-murderous-cop is the reasonable assumption, not your faux-reasonable dismissal of reasonable people.
Police: Michael Brown stopped because he blocked traffic
And here’s the statement I’d seen reference to about Johnson speaking to the FBI:
observer15,
If the truth is of any interest to you, look at the timeline which rq links at 329. Look at the pictures! The “highway” which Michael Brown was supposedly obstructing is barely a road at all. It is the concrete pathway, wide enough to drive a car along, which leads from somewhere – perhaps the street? – to the parking area between two housing blocks in a landscaped housing estate.
Look at it again. There are no road marking. It is paved with the sort of concrete which cannot stand up to much traffic and could well be used as a footpath when not actually being used by a car. As a “highway” it is so very insignificant that I wonder whether it is not on private property. In that case, obstructing the highway would not apply. Would it?
@chimera:
I’m not exactly correcting you. I’m disagreeing that the use of robbery is inappropriate.
One could call this shoplifting, I agree. I don’t want to erase the violence done to someone.
But yes, I also agree with you that they conjure very different images. Robbery as a word could be used in a highly inappropriate way to suggest that Brown, were it discovered he was the person caught on camera stealing the swisher sweets, deserved to be shot.
I’m okay with the use of robbery in general, but I wouldn’t be fine with just **any** use of robbery. I wouldn’t use shoplifting myself, but I likely wouldn’t argue about the use of the word (unless someone else first brought up a question about which wording was appropriate, then I’d happily contribute to that discussion, but it doesn’t seem important enough to me to raise as a point on its own).
Please don’t feel that I’m asserting my view is correct. There’s a right answer as to the legal question of, “What is the most serious charge for which a prima facie case can be made, based on that video?” There is no right answer to, “What words may or may not be used to best convey context relevant to understanding the story of the Wilson shooting/Brown death?”
Security growing around Ferguson PD Chief Tom Jackson at press conf.
A fave idiot meme popping up all over:
I wasn’t complaining about you correcting me CD. You are a lawyer or something from what I’ve been able to gather. Your technicalities are often enlightening and always welcome.
Law student.
Glad to help.
The conservatives, libertarians, racists, and other idiots are now making a big deal over unarmed does not mean innocent, and the phrase “massive riots” is being seen more and more, along with the statement that people *destroyed* the town of Ferguson defending a criminal.
CNN is referring to last night in Ferguson as ‘controlled chaos’.
Just fuck everything. Fuck it. We can’t even have a day of rest after the brutal fascism before the ignorant and authoritarian re-write history to create a narrative where the cold blooded murder of an eighteen year old for jaywalking is rendered necessary for the protection of society.
fuck
it
all
Obama’s Ferguson remarks diss black folks one more time
Fuck, do these people think we’re protesting a jury decision?
how about,
This shows that some people are actively looking for any lie to justify their toxic opinions. Even if Micheal Brown was a shoplifter, how does that justify shooting him, leave him there to bleed to death and leaving his corpse there for hours.
And that riot was a Police riot. And the police were defending a murderer, one who has left town..
Too many people in the US are embracing our authoritarian overlords.
Inaji @333:
I wonder which verses give these infallible instructions…
CD:
Nah, they don’t think that. They are tossing mass buckets of white wash all over the place, driving home the assumption that most white people are comfortable with, black equals guilty. Of something, somewhere, at any time. Y’know, just another thug.
What is that even suppose to mean? Character matters? If your character doesn’t suit some random cop’s arbitrary standards they’re justified in pumping you full of bullets? What the fuck is the matter with people?
Tony:
Well, wherever they are hiding, they have never worked. Since the old testament is so keen on slavery, though, I hate to think about what kind of reconciliation the poster had in mind.
Tony @351, I expect it’s one of the ones about How to Genocide in Five Easy Steps, which are somewhat numerous in the Bible. I mean, that’s the main path by which the Abrahamics usually attempt to achieve interracial peace (cf. Crusades, pogroms, Holocaust, jihads, et c.), isn’t it?
Seven of Mine:
In this case, it means something like “all black people are thugs, criminals, drug dealers, etc., unless it can proved beyond any doubt that the person was, in fact, so much a saint they were almost white!”
Well, I expected that some ad hoc justification for the murder will emerge. It always does.
Sad.
Robert Cohen’s iconic capture of eyefloodpanties’ return of a tear gas canister while holding his bag of chips is available for purchase. I’m getting a tee shirt.
Except that guilty wouldn’t matter if guilty meant, “deserves to be taken before a jury, and if the charges proved beyond a reasonable doubt without violation of constitutional rights in the process, hit with the fine and incarceration statutorily and juridically appropriate.”
The only way that this is even possibly relevant is if guilty = worthy of assassination. And with the
portion of your statement, that’s tantamount to the death penalty for living while brown. Worse – the death penalty would have to follow an actual charge and a chance to defend oneself.
I really don’t know why this just hit me differently. I’ve been saying for years that the lack of accountability creates an open hunting season for cops on certain persons – especially but not only men and boys of color from around 18 to 40. But fuck! This isn’t talking about the existence of a de facto license to kill certain socially despised people. This is arguing that a license to kill anyone from a despised group at any time is justified and a positive thing.
Fuck, this is straight out of Radio-Television Libre des Mille Collines.
CD:
Oh yes, and that is being spun out all over the media and the ‘net, as we speak.
Inaji, careful with Clymer. He is a mansplaining “feminist”.
@Inaji:
:shudder:
I really shouldn’t be surprised by that, but I thought the nice, white, middle-class way was at least to shrug and pretend to regret the necessity of shooting all the Black boys.
I suddenly feel the need to be back in the states. What the hell can I do from here that’s as valuable as standing in front of the tanks in the US?
Grrrr. There are few things worth being a trans person in a US prison, but standing up to the Ferguson bullies/assassins and a US adaptation of the rhetoric of R/TLdMC is more than sufficient for me to volunteer.
Just Because I’m Black
Janine, will do. Thanks.
Fox News taking heads are going on and on about how black people should just learn to comply with police and stop being so “uptight.”
They slightly changed the word there, figuring now nobody will see it as racist.
Can we just start calling them the KKK Channel and get it over with?
CD:
I know. If we didn’t have animals to take care of, we would have been in a car on the way to Missouri days ago. What’s worse is that I seem to be about the only person in all of ND, SD, and MT to be talking about this.* No vigil here, nothing. I know it’s rather pointless, but I’ve been signing every single petition coming up, and there are more, because if nothing else, my voice has to be added to the rest calling for justice and change.
*I know I’m not alone, but it sure feels that way.
Haven’t caught up in thread yet, but just wanted to say that this morning, the Jackson PC said that the officer who shot Brown had not considered him a suspect in the “robbery” (which, btw, amounted to someone running out of a store with a box of cigars).
So, whoever is thinking that the cop stopped Brown for being a possible suspect? Nope. even the Police Chief disavows that.
But, hypothetically, say the cop DID think Brown was a suspect in that robbery. No report of any weapons was made, the store owner only told the cops two youths walked out with a cigar box and pushed him so they could get away.
that’s it.
no, there was no excuse for shooting Brown.
Plus, for those thinking that it makes his buddy an unreliable witness. AGAIN…. the cop had no idea that Brown was a suspect in a robbery. PLUS, there is another witness WHO FILMED THE FINAL TAKEDOWN, and described in gory detail what happened.
She was not connected to the two boys at all.
so, just stop it.
this was NOT a good shoot, regardless of what the outcome of the investigation is.
Crip Dyke
Yes. Racism in America has a whole lot of genocidal impulse behind it. Most of it is under the surface, unexamined and unvoiced, but “black = guilty = deserves death penalty = I can kill you in the street” is a thought process brewing away all the time.
Jafafa Hots:
It’s not just Fox, though. It would be easier to dismiss if it was. CNN, MSNBC, and other major media are reporting the spin lies side, too. Speaking of the klan, this was posted today, with the comment “Wait, why aren’t the cops pointing assault rifles at these protestors?”
…catching up I see Antepro posted the links to the relevant statements by the Jackson PC.
Alleged Friend Of Officer Darren Wilson Offers His Side
Important: this has not been verified.
Young Conservatives start painting Mike Brown as a thug and gang member, based on photos. Respectability Politics in the house.
Obama… not progressive, not black, next we find out he’s actually a woman posing as a man?
The only consolation really isn’t one; that if it wasn’t him it would have been *shudder*…. can’t even consider it.
again, I tell you, DON’T rely on the democratic party to pick your primary candidates for you. you tell THEM who you want to see as a candidate. There really are very good progressive candidates out there, but everyone just ignores them. You don’t have to ignore them, really!
I’m happy to read a statement by Wilson, but someone unidentified calling in and insisting that she knows Wilson’s Significant Other and therefore has the real scoop? When not even the broadcaster whose show she called has any info legitimizing this 2nd hand relationship, much less that her info actually came through that relationship?
Useless. If the broadcaster vouched that the relationship was established, then it would be worth something – a confidential source rather than an anonymous one. Right now I treat it with the same respect I would treat anyone showing up on the internet saying, “I know Wilson. Let me tell you what **really** went down.”
Character matters, huh?
How many of us, as young kids or teens, have done something that we were later ashamed of?
I know that I was guilty of taking candy from the local grocery store and then running for my bus when I was a kid.
That didn’t stop me from graduating second in my class, earning a great scholarship and becoming a teacher.
My own daughter once joined some friends shoplifting makeup and candy from a drug store and were caught.
We punished her, and it didn’t stop her from graduating first in her class, earning several degrees, including a PHD, and becoming a well-respected neurobiologist.
For those of us who are white and privileged, youthful transgressions can be overlooked. The point that so many people are making is that just because this young man was a man of color, a youthful transgression paints him as a guilty thug.
No teen of any color deserves to die for shoplifting.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm #324-
“Please answer my question from #307. I’ll even be helpful and quote it for you:
What more do you need to know about what happened in Ferguson? If you find out that Mike Brown did, in fact, steal some cigars, what then? Does that mean Darren Wilson was justified in killing him?
What possible information could come to light that would justify any of this?”
For one, we need the police explanation for how it was that Michael Brown died 35 feet from the car and what the police say justified the killing. I want to hear their explanations. Because they haven’t given one doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have one.
I have already answered your last question: No.
What information do we need to justify the killing? I don’t know, but I will know it if I see it.
Also, note that I haven’t said that the killing was justified. I don’t know if it was justified or not. Could the police be lying? Sure! But there is not enough information right now to know.
this stands out: “He chuckled”? No, these people are not serious. #Ferguson
Unreleased Eyewitness Crime Scene Footage Of Mike Brown Murder In St Louis
indeed it does, but the shooting of unarmed black people is just the tiniest tip of that iceberg.
It’s the entire white infrastructure, from politicians, to real estate salesmen, that consciously or semi-consciously have continuously worked to segregate people “not like them” into substandard communities, and then the narrative is plastered onto those communities that they are a “drain on society”, further reducing opportunity and funding. It’s an endless cycle in the States that you will find within EVERY major city in the country. Not just in the South, mind you, but EVERYWHERE. You see it in Los Angeles, Detroit, New York, Phoenix…. everywhere.
Just a little digging will give you the history of how neighborhoods have become segregated in the big cities, and hasn’t slowed after the Civil Rights movement. Many whites have come to not even consider it racism, because they have come to be taught they are “colorblind”, without even realize they are still “othering”. We’re still racists in the purest sense of the word.
We failed as a society to really integrate.
The greatest strength, and weakness, of European Caucasians is their tendency towards strong authoritarian personalities. The near natural use of “othering” that manages to, over generations, give them unearned advantages wherever they set up shop.
I really believe this is the single, biggest historic factor in how whites have come to dominate in so many areas. Authoritarianism leads to excellent team building skills.
manifest destiny baby. Hell, I’m old enough to recall when they taught us that in elementary school, it was NOT considered a negative thing, but a positive one. Really, underneath, it still is. Maybe increasing recognition of this personality trend will force people to finally start seeing the long long history of authoritarianism that has been the cause of our failure to integrate and play nice with others. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though.
CD:
Yep, same here. It’s being tweeted on #Ferguson now that the police chief has said that “Darren Wilson is devastated”, however, he has been allowed to skip town, his whereabouts have not been released, he hasn’t been questioned, he hasn’t been arrested, and the truck he was driving at the time of the shooting has not been taken in for forensic analysis. Of course, we don’t know whether or not Mike Brown would be ‘feeling devastated’ because he’s dead.
there is NOTHING to suggest there is even a possible explanation to justify it. Not even my imagination could justify it.
they specifically asked YOU what you could even imagine would justify it.
you failed.
bye.
Ninaji #321-
“observer15:
or what justified the killing.
What in the fuck makes you think anything justified this murder? It is not justified, that’s kind of the point, you fuckwitted dipshit.”
Try quoting, reading and comprehending the entire sentence. I was talking about why the police might think it justified. I haven’t made up my mind about it and am awaiting further information.
Ichthyic:
I still remember my grandparents being all fucking upset over a black family moving in, two blocks away, and how terrible it was and how it was gonna fuck up housing values, all that. This would have been in ’68 or ’69. Of course, my grandfather was bigot to his core, a proud Bircher.
observer15:
Why don’t you, dipshit? Here’s a thought: shut the fuck up and go away until you figure out how to actually quote someone in a post.
Contact Bob McCulloch and ask why he has not pressed charges against Darren Wilson http://www.stlouiscopa.com demand arrest of Wilson #ferguson
Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera. – If you haven’t signed yet, please do.
Oh, bullshit. Darren Wilson feels devastated.
Mike Brown is devastated.
@Azzy, #374
Oh, please, Azzy. Don’t go there. It doesn’t lead anywhere good.
Yeah. Like I said. WTF, Azzy?
observer15
I’m asking you to explain how it could possibly be justified. What do you think justifies escalating to the use of lethal force when you’re dealing with an unarmed person? What would you accept as a justification from the police? If your answer is more inane waffling and evasion, just ooze the fuck back on out of here.
navelgazer:
Unarmed. Running. Hands Up. On Knees. SHOT NINE TIMES. Yeah, there’s just gotta be a justification in there somewhere, eh?
Seven of Mine
Judging by the frequent use of lethal force in these situations followed by claims of self-defense, unarmed minorities must be capable of laser vision or creating explosions with their mind powers. /sarcasm
I’m thinking there’s super sekrit evidence of those flocks of assault copters that black people have been amassing which were thwarted in the nick of time by the no fly zone over Ferguson. Brown was probably on his way to give the order to deploy them.
This has been started: https://twitter.com/hashtag/MyBlackLifeMattersBecause?src=hash
I’m with the man who said:
However, it is obviously necessary, in the States, for black people to make the point that yes, their lives matter. I’m back to feeling awfully damn sick.
Press Release – The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights In Wake of Tragedies in Ferguson, Civil and Human Rights Coalition Calls for Sensible Law Enforcement Reforms
Ferguson Police’s PR Stunt Poisons Independent and Impartial Investigation
Unobservant15, you really grasp at the flimsiest straws to support your racism, don’t you. Petty theft by a brown person is never an excuse for a gangland style execution.
Police brutality can occur anywhere. The officers concerned lie and cheat their way out of accountability whenever they think they can get away with it.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/new-south-wales-police-accused-of-assault-cover-up/5675148
observer15:
Fixed That For You.
Like Michael Brown in Ferguson, to be poor and black renders you collateral
America claims to see racism differently. But it does not, apparently, see black people differently
My friends deserve to feel as safe and respected as I do.
Observer15, you are bordering on denialism. Want “more information”? Really? What “more information” is gonna make any of the shit we already know any better? And why the fuck, considering the utter and demonstrable failure of the media during the early phases of this very same news story, are you waiting on faith to hear the Full Story from them?
Here is what you are really saying: You want to shut us up. You want to barter in excuses and plausible deniability. You want to take the stance of Troo Skeptic to dismiss the information we already have with the assumption that it will somehow be less worthy of outrage later on. You see an obvious and stark injustice and want to come up with every ridiculous rationalizations you can to tell everyone to just sit down, shut up, grin and bear it. Well, fuck you.
Ichthyic @380:
I’d love to see something to back this up. Do non-(European Caucasians) really have less of a tendency towards authoritarian personalities? China? Japan? India? An ancient butterfly flaps its wings a bit differently, and we’re all speaking Hunnish, Mongolian, Turkish, isiZulu, Arabic or Quechuan.
Smiling Young White People Make App for Avoiding Black Neighborhoods
*wince* I’d reconsider that t-shirt.
Ferguson Police Chief Admits Mike Brown Shooting Not Related to Robbery
Welp.
Ceesays:
Glad I didn’t order one.
Thanks, ceesays, I’d been trying to find out what percentage he was getting.
0% isn’t nearly enough, in my opinion.
Inaji, like you I have been following this on Twitter – unlike you, I am far too slow to get the information over here. Thank you – everything I’ve wanted to say, each and every time, you’ve already said and then some. I don’t know how you do it – my hat goes off to you, thank you again. And *snuffles* from my little rat Bailey to Amelia for taking care of you.
(I was also going to ask Azyroth why they were so thoughtless at 374, but they seem to have vanished along with the comment.)
The MSNBC story pretty much tells it as it is at this time:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-did-ferguson-police-release-the-convenience-store-video
Like the media, I would like to see the incident report to get the police officer’s side of the story. I would also like to hear about any forensic evidence from the scene which might indicate where Michael Brown was shot (at the car, 35 feet from the car, both?). Dorian Johnson’s credibility as a witness seems to be improved by the Ferguson police chief’s admission that the initial contact and shooting was unrelated to the robbery and by their admission that Dorian Johnson did not participate in the robbery. Releasing the unrelated robbery information in my estimation damages the credibility of the police. That two other witnesses tell the same story as Dorian Johnson for events after the initial contact also improve Dorian Johnson’s credibility. But I’ll wait for sufficient information before deciding what to think.
I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said. I just want to thank Inaji for all the links and updates. I’ve been putting in a lot of hours at work the past couple days and not had much time to myself. Just following this one thread has really kept me informed on what has been going on. I really really appreciate it and I’m sure there are other people lurking who do as well.
you’re full of shit, observer15. you’re completely fucking despicable. There is absolutely no justification for this child being murdered by a cop, and you fucking sit there and act like there is? fuck you. get mud on your best clothes because you stepped on a lego.
Observer15, you are bordering on denialism. Want “more information”? Really? What “more information” is gonna make any of the shit we already know any better? And why the fuck, considering the utter and demonstrable failure of the media during the early phases of this very same news story, are you waiting on faith to hear the Full Story from them?
Here is what you are really saying: You want to shut us up. You want to barter in excuses and plausible deniability. You want to take the stance of Troo Skeptic to dismiss the information we already have with the assumption that it will somehow be less worthy of outrage later on. You see an obvious and stark injustice and want to come up with every ridiculous rationalizations you can to tell everyone to just sit down, shut up, grin and bear it. Well, fuck you.
No, I just want to know the truth.
Tigger:
Aaaaw, I shall pass them on. Amelia has been keeping a close eye on me.
navelgazer:
No, you don’t. You just want to justify your racism, the ugly bigotry you carry around as if it were an important truth.
@Crip Dyke, #363
I don’t know what country you’re from but couldn’t you encourage people wherever you are to petition for a UN investigation of racism in the United States? If nothing else, this could be seriously embarassing with regards to a lot of the hypocritical rhetoric our government uses about preventing genocide in Iraq while arming police departments for doing it here.
observer15
Bullshit. You know enough to conclude that there is no justification for Brown’s murder or the ensuing terrorizing of Ferguson by the local police. You’re waiting on the edge of your seat for whatever feeble excuse the police make so you can accept it uncritically and go back to being a racist shit in peace.
Statement from St. Louis County Police Officers Assoc., saying @GovJayNixon put officers lives in danger. #Ferguson
Enough is enough. Please join us in calling on federal and city officials to rigorously investigate, prosecute, and fire all officers involved.
The demonization of a dead, unarmed teenager is well underway …
I’m out for the night, keep the coverage going, and everyone, stay safe.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm @ #414
“Bullshit. You know enough to conclude that there is no justification for Brown’s murder or the ensuing terrorizing of Ferguson by the local police. You’re waiting on the edge of your seat for whatever feeble excuse the police make so you can accept it uncritically and go back to being a racist shit in peace.”
We don’t have the full story until we have the police officer’s version. The rest of your post is BS.
Oh, and observer15, I think you should run right at the first cop you see, and give them a big ol’ kiss.
I don’t want to see what lies he puts down to avoid a murder one charge. It will all be made up. That is how one does skepticism. Goes for the why something was said too. To hide his bigotry and mistake as a cop.
I have been in a position twice to personally know the TRUTH, first-hand, about police officers’ version of a story.
Both times they were utter bullshit.
One was when I was false-arrested, the other was when I was assaulted by a cop and threatened with false arrest.
Lucky for me I’m white – all it cost me was a few hours locked up and a few hundred dollars for a lawyer.
You are waiting for THE SHOOTERS version. That shows you already have a bias.
He has no version of the truth, just his feeble excuses for a cold blooded murder of an unarmed man. Unless his statement admits that mistake and he pleads guilty of murder, it is cover-up lies and bullshit. Like you are trying to present, and you appear stupid, ignorant, and biased by doing so. Your presuppositional thinking to find an excuse where the is none is acting like a bigot would. Stop doing that.
Jafafa Hots:
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. In one case I learned something real valuable – if you look white, and you have a relative on the same force that arrested you, it’s a great way to get all the charges dropped and get a ride home.
I really have to go now. ‘night.
Checking #Ferguson on facebook is fucking awful. The vast majority of comments on those pages are from flaming racists who are making up things on the spot to suit their own narrative.
If anything, going by facebook alone shows that racism isn’t just alive in America, it predominates America.
Fucking heartbreaking.
Also, if anybody still isn’t sure about using the word pigs to describe cops, here’s a blast from the recent past (2006).
Watch 0:50 if nothing else:
I have the video of the events leading up to my own arrest. I also have the arrest report giving the cop’s side of the story. They have nothing in common. And my arrest was just over two misdemeanors the cop invented because he was mad he couldn’t intimidate me into backing down from exercising my constitutional rights fast enough for his liking. Meaning, there was very little at stake on the cop’s end for my arrest.
Anyone who thinks they could trust the tale a murdering cop like Wilson would spin over the confrontation where he killed an unarmed young man is a total fucking moron.
observant15
Do you actually think this contradicts me? We know for a fact that Brown was unarmed. We know he was shot what? 9 times? From 35 feet away. We know the officer who shot him had no idea about any robbery he might have been suspected of. We know the police have been terrorizing the town more heavily armed than actual military in actual warzones. We know people have been illegally arrested. But you won’t know enough until the murderer has made his excuse. Tell me why I should think you won’t believe the shooter when all of the horrific things we already know isn’t enough to get you off your fucking fence? The only possible reason you could have to wait for his version is if you think there’s something he could say that would justify all of this.
Let us ignore EVERYTHING about what happened except that the pig fired his fun 7 – 9 times, with one of those being at least 35 feet away.
I don’t care what the rest of the story happened to be. That there, that’s fucking murder. How do you possibly justify this in your head?
Let’s not forget that cops are not only legally allowed to… they are TRAINED to LIE to suspects.
Lying to suspects “we have video of you, we know you did it…” “Your buddy is ready to testify against you unless you testify against him first…” “we have six eyewitnesses saying it was you, you don’t stand a chance in court… do yourself a favor, confess and we can help make it easier for you…” is THEIR JOB.
When lying to those arrested is standard protocol, part of their training, and officially blessed by the courts as good policework, how can you expect cops NOT to become liars?
yup. The robbery is a red herring, and even though the police chief himself ADMITS THIS LITERALLY… it still it will lead the narrative on this in the media. This was as it was intended to be. And you can’t even blame the PC, since he openly stated that the robbery had nothing to do with the interaction between Williams and Brown. He knew, however, what the media would do with it. THAT you can blame him for.
people like Observer15 (and way too many others most likely) are waiting with baited breath to embrace the rhetoric that will be used to link the red herring to the actual event that was the shooting of Mike Brown.
There will be pastors and preachers already feverishly working on painting the entire thing as a reaction of a fearful police department to rampant thuggery. They will use the “robbery” and the “looting” to justify their false rhetoric, even though the robbery is a red herring and the looting was done by people who don’t even live in Ferguson (one of them was even from Texas).
History suggests most Americans will happily swallow the story that comes out of all this, and the cycle will repeat. History suggests nothing will be done to fix the underlying problems that lead to a police officer shooting an unarmed teen. History suggests nothing will be done to stop the demonization of non – white communities in America.
History tells a fucking tragic story.
@alkaloid, #412:
I’m from the US, but I live in Canada. I’ve been trained in the procedures of the OAS:IACHR and I’m perfectly competent to file a complaint myself – and I know enough to know that the OAS is a more effective entity in matters like this than the UN and that the IAC has a better track record than the UN HRC, and a longer track record (presuming we discount the track record of the UNCHR which preceded the UNHRC and which the UNHRC would **like** us to discount since the HRC was formed and the CHR was dissolved precisely because the CHR had no credibility), which hasn’t even as broad a mandate as the IAC, at least as applied to the US because of the US’s greater submission to the IAC than to the UN. The treaties involved are much more useful and give much more leverage and the IAC has much more credibility.
So, yes, I have plenty I could do from here. But not having something to do from here wasn’t the source of my frustration. The source of my frustration was:
Frankly, since I don’t have a personal complaint of any significance, and since no one with a personal complaint of any significance has asked me to act on their behalf in planning, writing, and/or submitting a complaint, I don’t even have the opportunity to do the thing for which I am trained that would have the most leverage. I want to use all my skills, all my passion, all my power and privilege, but none of it will be as valuable as I could be as one white person standing between a pointed gun and a person of color.
…Wilson and Brown, not Williams and Brown.
Tonight will be telling. I can’t believe the police chief got away with the character assassination. Thanks to all for the excellent coverage. The #Ferguson feed gets plugged up with some awful racist shit and pictures without TW’s. So I appreciate all that you are doing. It was weird, I headed to the store a few minutes ago, and was listening to the coverage on Ferguson on NPR, and when I pulled into the store parking lot there was a police SUV in the alley with a loud dog barking (not sure it was in the police car, but I normally don’t hear loud barking there). I quickly turned off my radio wondering if they could hear what I was listening to, and was quickly afraid. They had their window down and were scanning the parking lot, not smiling just parked there in the alley watching. It was unsettling. And I’m not even a demographic that police would normally target, I was one of those privilege check moment, where I realized some people feel that fear every day, and it is very real for them.
Indite “The Police” for a single act and the world is united.
Indite “The Looters” for multiple acts and the world is outraged.
#phony #online morality #herd mentality
How many nights of police riots before the state police took over? Not a single act, so you don’t tell the truth in your first sentence. It goes downhill from there.
#online morality
#look how not racist I am
#I’m really, really not
#look how outraged I am
Have you been reading many of HorseEBooks’ tweets?
Hashtags, how do they work?
@asdfjkl:
This isn’t twitter.
Make an argument or haul your thoughtless, useless pile of electrons elsewhere.
don’t know about horsey. just making a point with the hashtags. it’s a big shitshow for sure, but everybody pretending to care makes me ill. i don’t want anyone to have a wrongful death, but everyday I read about horrible things that humans do to humans. this is just another day.
Yawn, another stupid bigot trying to make a point, and only appearing stupid, ignorant, and bigoted.
Why bother, unless you like to show the world just why they shouldn’t hire you?
Yep, making the point you are stupid.
Ah, the pseudo Muslima defense. As I said, stupid…
asdfjkl,
You get killed tomorrow. Doesn’t matter how. But this is not important, right? You are just collateral damage.
Fuck off.
so why are you such a great human specimen? because you say the things that pz wants to hear, hoping he’ll acknowledge you? what exactly makes me a bigot, by your definition?
[Bye, Chris. Also, stop making sock accounts to get past your ban. –pzm]
observer15, do you actually have a point that doesn’t translate into you just saying “nope” over and over?
And random letter nym, hashtag dropping troll: Please, elaborate on these “The Looters” that you speak of. Because, as has already been mentioned before, there were ten cases of looting in this story, and all of them were from out of town i.e. not representative of the protestors. What is your fucking point, aside from being yet another Militant Apathist who would rather we not talk about racism or care about anything at all?
Blatant troll is blatant. Also blatantly stupid.
You are making my point for me. Just the mention of looters brings outrage, but calling “the police” out as a whole is encouraged.
Also, Morgan!?, I feel like your comment at 440 is out of line. Dangerously balanced on the fence of seeming like a threat.
asdfjkl @437
Shorter version:
I’ve turned off my empathy, why haven’t you people?
We arent pretending to care, we are genuinely disgusted with the actions of the police, we are heart-broken that another black kid has been murdered. You’re extremely bad at reading minds.
Gibbering Idiot sez:
And? What is the problem here? The police fucking killed an unarmed 18 year old, instituted a no fly zone, cracked down on media coverage and started outright arresting reporters for frivolous charges. They assaulted protestors with tear gas and rubber bullets for no reason and came out in full force to stifle protests on several occasions. And then ten looters stole things. The outrage is justified and your priorities are utter shit. But you are just a troll, so I doubt you give a fuck. Just feeling like you are getting some sort of irritation out of us is your entire goal. Well guess what? You are a minor nuisance. You aren’t smart or clever enough to actually get under our skin. Buzz off, you pest.
anteprepro,
Oh for craps sake. Just positing an OBVIOUS hypothetical.
That’s
niceshitty.Now that you’re said your useless piece, buh bye.
anteprepro:
I didn’t take morgan’s comment like that. It was hypothetically speaking.
You mean like this on Fox?:
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/fox-and-friends-find-their-uncle-ruckus
Question Authority.
(Or “just follow orders” – there’s you choice.)
I hear you. They wanted to draft me and send us poor draftees (no Quayles or Bushes) to ‘Nam back in the day. Part of the whole question/be very skeptical of AUTHORITY.
All of it, especially “releasing” the video and letting the media concoct the apologia reads so much like twiddling the knobs on the mid-21st century security state.
Kudos (and hugs, should they be of comfort) to those providing insight here, specially Inaji. I really can’t bear the standard media coverage so it helps. Lurking, but I’m here.
Also:
#asshole
Jafafa, your comment reminded me of a book I got my niece a while back, A Rule is to Break: A Child’s Guide to Anarchy. (It is a super cute book). My favorite line might have been, “If someone says work, ask why!”. I can’t even imagine having had that idea as a child. Heck, I was raised singing the “Obedience” song (Oh, be, ee, de, eye, ee, en, ce, ee!) Has anyone else read this book? I thought it was pretty great.
you pretending to be ill makes me ill.
fuck off.
yes, just so.
heh.
Per Jafafa Hots’ link @ 452:
Hey, Tony! Looks like someone answered your question.
Oy, I really need to get back to work, but it’s difficult paying attention to anything other than Ferguson.
Really, observer15? You are going to take the officer’s account into account? How are you going to test its truth? How are you going to trust a person who you know nothing about?
Seriously, the cops could have presented the shooter’s account with his identity secret at any time these last few days. Instead, they kept him quiet and hidden — something that would be said to reek of guilt if the circumstances were reversed.
Fact, the cops say the incident started because Mike Brown was blocking traffic. They blocked traffic for over four hours while his body lay in the street — what were they doing all that time? We have video of the police doing nothing much, except covering the body. The body was far from any vehicle, at least the 35 feet or more that has been mentioned. If the shooter’s vehicle was moved, the evidence was compromised. The video does not show any effort to avoid stepping on ejected cartridge cases, BTW.
The police did armor up and did try to shut down any protests, disobedience and journalism. They did roll into the neighborhood and assume the worst about the residents. They did mock and insult the citizens, they did point guns, they did shoot flashbangs, tear gas and rubber bullets. They did threaten to shoot real bullets into free citizens standing up for their rights. They did block traffic and disrupt the town. They did tell people to go home, and fired teargas into their homes.
The police come off as racist tyrants, and would be roundly condemned as such by all, except some people still haven’t seen the corruption for what it is. Fact, the chief says the shooter had never had any disciplinary acts against him — which would mean nothing if the whole department was corrupt and racist, and wouldn’t need to be said if the organization was healthy (it reeks of red herring).
I live in southwest Missouri, and should have got up to Ferguson (despite the broke and inflamed aspects of my life). Racism is rampant, and the police are not pure and holy. Let’s see … the sheriff’s son selling dope that his dad confiscated, the cop that pulled us over in Ash Grove because he didn’t like our bumperstickers and who flat lied about a duplicate license plate, the guy who came sirening down on me because I was walking along a road in the dark and had shaded my eyes from the headlights, and the guy who just let me go with no proof of insurance just because I gave him an excuse. Oh, and the cop who insisted that I give him my name when I turned over a wallet that I had found in an alley — I said that the previous time it had happened (I walk a lot), that cop had passed my name on to the owner, but he assured me that would never happen with him, but damn if my phone didn’t ring the next day (when I later found a cell phone in that area, I dropped it off at the store). That’s all in southwest Missouri, though.
Up near Ferguson, about twenty miles north of it, I tangled with two St. Charles county deputies. They pulled up, I waved, smiled and walked over. They screamed orders, cuffed me (too damn tight), questioned me and accused me. I stayed calm and continued being of their favored race. They gradually let off, but then told me where to go and what to do for my own safety, despite it being obvious that I had been managing fine without their advice, and it being obvious to me that their advice was not safe. I pretended to comply, then turned around and headed out of the county. The joke and the point of the story is that I was actually guilty (of something fairly harmless), and they totally overlooked the evidence despite a deliberate search for it. They didn’t see it, which convinced them that I was innocent, because they couldn’t have been wrong. I don’t know that those two went to Ferguson, but I would not be a damn bit surprised.
I would most emphatically not assume that the Ferguson cops were innocent or competent. I like the idea of cameras on all policemen. I suggest an oversight board of some sort that actually and transparently evaluates and investigates all police forces, and holds them accountable to the people. The president should not have to order investigations, nor the governor appoint someone after an incident. We should have a standard for police that we, the people, can trust and respect.
Again, there is every indication that the Ferguson and St Louis police are entirely corrupted by racism, and there is nothing to show that they are not, and there is no way to find out whether or not they are.
(Seriously, in this day and age you are going to trust a videotape? At very easiest, they riffle through their files until they find a tape of a guy who looks vaguely like the man they are trying to frame, at medium they re-enact the whole thing, and gods know what they could do in six days with everybody distracted by the riot they were putting on.)
http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/08/15/3471765/i-am-mike-brown-game-changer/
(excerpt)
Oh for crap’s sake Morgan!?, it doesn’t matter. Hypothetical or not, it still could be an interpretted as that kind of threat. I didn’t, but I could see it being interpreted that way. Take that criticism or don’t, but don’t get huffy with me about it.
Wow, Tony!, G.A.G.E. sounds like a real class act. I will have to find that song once I have the time.
anteprepro,
Why not? Subtlety, how does it work? Breath deeply, m’dear.
That song is heartbreaking.
Menyambal @ #461-
Really, observer15? You are going to take the officer’s account into account? How are you going to test its truth? How are you going to trust a person who you know nothing about?
Yes, I want to hear what the police officer has to say. That doesn’t mean that I’ll trust him or believe him. I just want to know if he has a plausible explanation for what we know.
Seriously, the cops could have presented the shooter’s account with his identity secret at any time these last few days. Instead, they kept him quiet and hidden — something that would be said to reek of guilt if the circumstances were reversed.
Yes, they could and I think it looks bad for them that they have been reticent. In fact, everything I’ve seen so far looks bad for the police. The police have so far offered nothing by way justification for the killing. No details at all. That looks really bad. But looking bad doesn’t prove guilt. Everything could change if exculpatory new information came to light. That’s really all I am saying. If charges were brought against the police officer and the jury was selected from among the people here, there would be no way that he could get a fair trail.
I agree with you on the rest of your post. I haven’t lived in southern Missouri, so I don’t know what the police are like there. I did live in a conservative part of California when I was a teenager and was subjected to harassment by the police because I didn’t have a car and walked everywhere I went. I was stopped walking to and from school, walking to the library, walking to the theater, you name it. They sometimes filled out reports on me. My crime was being a teenager without a car. I also once witnessed police misconduct when a policeman tried to provoke a friend of mine into taking a swing at him so he could beat him up just for some minor comment my friend made that the policeman didn’t like. I read several years later in our local newspaper that the same police department got caught fabricating evidence on someone. So I know all of those things happen and I know they tend to happen more often in some communities than others. But I’m not discussing general police behavior. I’m discussing this incident. And all of the information on it is not yet in. The facts are disputed.
@467, observer15
WHAT? What possible “exculpatory new information” could there possibly be? The officer shot him nine times, in the back, when he was unarmed. Can you imagine any scenario where that could ever be justified? If he was unarmed the “in the back” part is irrelevant — there is NO justification! Hell and little fishes, nine shots is necessarily too many — even if the guy were fucking threatening the cops with a rifle, that’s way more than necessary to deal with the threats.
Beyond that, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING the police did after that was as wrong as it could possibly be. Leaving the body out for 5 hours? Refusing to give out information? Threatening and falsely arresting the press? Hiding their badges to keep reporters from being able to say who was harassing them? TEARGASSING PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN BACK YARDS? Even had Brown been a modern-day Al Capone, armed to the teeth and willing to shoot it out, the cops of Ferguson proved themselves to be uniformly unfit for duty from the way they handled this — and that applies to all of them, from the shooter to the chief.
You are a fucking racist apologist asshole. May your barefoot path be ever strewn with Lego bricks, and may you spend every waking moment feeling like you’re going to sneeze. You deserve far worse, but this board frowns on ill-wishing so I’ll forebear.
You do realize that the court of public opinion isn’t actually a courtroom, no?
And you could take pretty much any minority, and charge them with pretty much any crime, like illegal possession of magical jovian unicorns, and as long as you selected the jury from yahoo commenters, you could pretty much be guaranteed a conviction.
Your a fucking idiot, and a racist authoritarian apologist to boot, observer.
Donald Glover composed a poem on Twitter as a response to the events in Ferguson.
observer15
Are you, at some point, going to get it through your head that the problem we have with you right now is that you apparently think a plausible explanation could exist which would make this all OK? You can say you’re not necessarily going to believe the cop all you want; you’re still, of necessity, admitting that you’ll be willing to let his word override everything else you know about the situation if it strikes you as plausible. As Vicar pointed out, there is no fact which could come to light at this point which would make this anything other than murder followed by state sanctioned terrorism. Which leaves you looking like an extremely fucking repulsive human being and not the steadfastly neutral twoo skeptic you imagine yourself to be.
@ Tony!
This particular tweet near the bottom:
*wibble*
Granted, I’m sorta curious as to what the cop is going to say. Not that I’m going to give it much consideration, but out of some morbid/masochistic sort of curiosity, I want to hear how an armored, armed, privileged part of a highly coordinated team of other armored, armed, and privileged individuals (who were all part of a much larger armored, armed, and privileged institution), felt that some random unarmed, unarmored, distinctively not privileged, kid was such a threat to his existence that he had to shoot him. And then shoot him again as he fled. And shot him yet again as he put his hands in the air, was on his knees, and pleading for mercy. And then shot him a few more times as he lay bleeding out on the pavement.
That wasn’t self defense. It wasn’t even rage or adrenaline, that was straight-up, cold-blooded murder of an unarmed citizen.
Short of the kid being some sort of superpowered vampire or something, I really can’t imagine any situation where that cop’s actions would be at all justified. And if that cop thought random black kids were superpowered vampires, they clearly aren’t in the right state of mind to either possess a weapon, be in a position of authority, or interacting with the public.
We already have a really good idea of what went down that afternoon, we’ve heard at least a couple eyewitness reports (all of which line up remarkably well). We’ve also heard a handful of disparate police accounts of what happened, all of which were contradictory not only with the other eyewitness reports, but with each other as well. Taken in consideration with the illegal refusal to release any information that could have benefited the deceased (anything about the incident, anything about the autopsy, who the fuck murdered him, any video/cam footage of anything about the time he was murdered) , the well-known inaccuracy (and, often, even completely fabricated) or police statements, on top of the multiple incompatible, if not contradictory police statements… I think it’s fairly obvious the police force or Ferguson is not being straightforward, is trying to cover up what happened through obscuring/hiding/restricting information, as well as releasing anything they can that could possibly cast the murder victim in a bad light.
If there was any legitimate information/explanation/excuse/whateverthefuckyouwannacallit for murdering this kid, it would have been front and center from the very beginning. This whole week has been an all-too-typical exercise of force by the authorities to try and demand fear, obedience and compliance, without any regard to truth or justice. That’s why in the subsequent invasion and terrorism of the neighborhood, the cops were targeting news crews, journalists, and people filming them. They knew their (and their colleague’s) actions were inexcusable and indefensible, and were attempting to simply beat the entire neighborhood into compliance and submission.
These sadistic bullies don’t deserve to live unrestricted in any civilized society, let alone bear arms or authority over any other human.
observer15,
Interestingly it is the Guardian – a newspaper based in the UK – which comes up with the standards set by the US Supreme Court for the use of lethal forces. The whole thing is worth reading but here is the key section
Humanely it allows the test to be the situation as perceived by the officer in the heat of the moment and not the facts as later understood when everyone is calm.
Now, I am prepared to bet that an infinite number of philosophy professors could not come up with a fact or a perception on anyone’s part which causes this shooting to fall within those guidelines.
What is it that you imagine the police officer could say which might count as “exculpatory new information” given those rules? You’d better start thinking quick about that one for you have already painted yourself into a corner.
And here is the link which I forgot.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/15/michael-brown-when-can-officers-shoot-ferguson
Observer15
If there was a “plausible explanation” for the shooting then the Ferguson police chief would have given it at his news conference. Instead we got a story about shoplifting and acknowledgement that Wilson didn’t even know about it when he shot Brown.
you at least have some imagination. Observer15 was asked the same question repeatedly, and couldn’t even understand what was being asked of them.
frankly though, having been a buffy fan, and even spent time watching true blood, I still don’t think even this fantasy scenario would justify murder.
show me the bite marks!
:)
Observer15
In other words, you will swallow obvious lies if it meets your presupposition that the cold-blooded murder was justified in the any way. That isn’t skepticism.
Same old lies and bullshit from day 1. Believe the perp, not the victim and witnesses.
There is no legitimate “excuse” for the shooting.
Uhh… no… the murder would just be largely ignored.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1412236/dillon-taylor-police-shooting/
Going to add my agreement to the notion that the officer’s explanation won’t be able to affect the situation very much. A teenager was shot down while unarmed, hands in the air, and without the murderer being aware of any potential suspect-status. That, alongside everything else that followed is more than enough evidence that the police involved was far far out of bounds and that there are serious problems with how racism and police brutality is viewed in the media and treated in general. I live on the other side of the Atlantic and it’s still pretty clear to me that the shooter’s story won’t excuse gunning down someone like this, and shooting peaceful protesters with rubber bullets and tear gas. It’s a terrible situation and it really highlights that there is a systemic problem with racial profiling and serious injustice. Mike Brown could have been running from a bank robbery and it still wouldn’t make sense to claim that we need the officer’s story.
As an aside, I looked up if police had shot and killed anyone over here. Apparently, in my home country, it has happened 11 times in the last decade. In all those cases, the victim seem to have been armed and threatening or attacking (in one case having shot an officer first, in another attacking police with a sabre) and yet the police were still criticised in several cases for having used excessive force. In other words, even when someone is waving a knife and threatening the police they don’t necessarily have justification to shoot at all, let alone shooting someone fatally, so I am very very sceptical of the claim that it’s still possible that Mike Brown’s murder was justified when Brown was unarmed and all evidence point to him doing nothing to necessitate even the least bit of force.
Protesters tried to keep looters out of stores
Ferguson Protesters Guard Stores From Looters
Missouri ACLU, authorities reach agreement on recording of police
Wesley Lowery noted that the two looters who tried to set fires, threw rocks at him and other reporters were white.
Members of the community protecting the Ferguson Market
Tomorrow @12 in London outside US embassy in solidarity with the people of #Ferguson #MichaelBrown
Via #AntonioFrench:
Good morning Inaji, hope you slept well.
“Truth is We Are All One Bullet Away From Being A #Hashtag” #Ferguson
Is Race An Issue In Ferguson? Depends On Whom You Ask
Brown’s death and fiery rallies exposed two cities that exist in one. Some residents say, “It’s one of the most racist places there is.” But the mayor insists, “There’s not a black-white divide in Ferguson.”
Black People Are Not Ignoring ‘Black On Black’ Crime
Ta-Nehisi Coates Aug 15 2014, 8:53 PM ET
Chimera:
‘Morning, Chimera. By the looks of it, I got more sleep than the townspeople of Ferguson.
Regarding Inaji‘s 482 (and later comments), Ferguson is finally in Toronto news. I think they had an article yesterday, something pretty vague, though. Nothing in local news.
I was away from media yesterday and missed it all, but after reading through my twitter feed from last night (I’ve been following a lot of people on the ground in Ferguson), this article from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch seems to get the basic facts of what happened correct. Protesters were peaceful until police showed up in riot gear again, they got agitated, a few broke off and started looting, and then the rest of the protesters protected the businesses from the looters. According to Antonio French’s tweets in particular, there was a lot higher proportion of teens to adults out last night, which meant a lot more young upset people without as many older people to calm them down, which may have contributed to the small group deciding to break off and start breaking into stores. What I don’t get is why police showed up in riot gear AGAIN, after how badly that went last time.
Superb post as always from Ta-Nehisi Coates at The Atlantic:
Nelly Preaches Peace In #Ferguson, Announces Scholarship
Continuing from 484, via #AntonioFrench:
Cleaning up Sam’s meat market
I just went and explored St. Louis and Ferguson a little bit using the street views of Google earth. Even in the “best” neighborhoods (according to real estate agent descriptions) there are lots of empty lots, looks like houses have been razed. There must not be a lot of work in that city.
Continuing from 484 and 493, via #AntonioFrench:
More from the Atlantic, this time William Powell, senior editor at St.Louis magazine:
This is the police department you’re waiting for “more information” from, observer15. They pick up the wrong man, and instead of letting him go and apologizing, they charge him for bleeding on them. How fucking egregious is that? I’m honestly surprised they don’t just write Black people up as “suspect was observed moving through the neighbourhood while suspiciously dark-skinned; recommended charge is ‘threat to public order through Blackness'”.
At some point, it should become obvious that the null hypothesis, when dealing with US police (and UK and Canadian and so on), is that if they’re dealing with someone who isn’t white, racism is involved. There’s just too much accumulated evidence that the entire ‘justice’ system is stacked heavily against POC to have “it’s not racist” as a null.
the conversation i’m seeing concerning #ferguson is a perfect example of how racism and anti-blackness grows.
And so we don’t forget the spin lies or all the people looking to change the narrative, especially with Respectability Politics:
CaitieCat:
Let’s not forget that it was the cops that caused the bleeding in the first place. Honestly, the article about Henry Davis and the circus known as FPD was linked at least twice, and I’m pretty sure ‘observer15’ has not been clicking on the wealth of links or reading any articles. To do that would interfere with the justification they are looking for so intently.
Continuing from 484, 493 and 496, via #AntonioFrench: