A pilot on a Westjet flight, Captain Carey Steacey, got a friendly note from a passenger, David, in seat 12E. Of course he didn’t confront her directly, he scribbled this note on a napkin and left it for the crew to find after he left the plane.
![To Capt./Westjet The cockpit of an airliner is no place for a woman. A woman being a mother is the most honor, not as “captain.” Proverbs 31. We’re short on mothers, not pilots Westjet. (Sorry not P.C.) PS I wish Westjet could tell me a fair lady is at the helm so I can book another flight! [on back] In the end this is all mere vanity… Not impressed respectfully in love, David](https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/files/2014/03/sexistnote.jpg)
To Capt./Westjet The cockpit of an airliner is no place for a woman. A woman being a mother is the most honor, not as “captain.” Proverbs 31. We’re short on mothers, not pilots Westjet. (Sorry not P.C.) PS I wish Westjet could tell me a fair lady is at the helm so I can book another flight! [on back] In the end this is all mere vanity… Not impressed respectfully in love, David
At first I thought, what a dumbass…and then I remembered something.
A couple of years ago, I was on a little puddlejumper flight — an itty bitty prop-driven plane with maybe 10 or 12 seats. I was looking across the field and saw two crew people walking towards us. One was a rugged big guy, clean-shaven but with a manly 5 o’clock shadow, and the other was a petite Asian woman. I didn’t think anything of it, but I was literally startled when once they got on the plane, the woman sat down in the captain’s chair and started doing all that pre-flight switch-flipping, while the man made himself busy in the galley, fussing with trays. I was pleasantly surprised, but still…I was on that plane with a fine cargo of stereotypes in my head.
I think the difference between me and David isn’t that I’m some deeply, intrinsically egalitarian liberal with no biases at all, but that when the world rises up and breaks the model of it in your head, some of us are tickled by the experience and are happy to revise our models. Others are annoyed and offended at the defiance of their sacred preconceptions and want to insist that the world cohere to them. And then their brains just drift farther and farther from reality, step by step, until you get David, who wants to get off a plane when the crew doesn’t look like his mental image of a proper flight crew.
And his model isn’t even a bad approximation of reality: WestJet has 1,118 men flying their airplanes, and only 58 women. David just fails on the inflexible vs. adaptable parameter of his brain. And unfortunately we live in a culture where religion is a vehicle for promoting inflexibility, in an era where we need to adapt.
Yes, this! This a thousand times over!
I’d add that there’s also a humility aspect in addition the absolute vs. plastic thing, but still: The point is that the world is not divided into misogynists and non-misogynists (or racists and non-racists, or homophobes and non-homophobes, or whatever). These notions are so ingrained that nobody is completely free of them, and we all participate to a certain extent in systems which perpetuate these stereotypes and limitations. What makes people different is how they react to it.
I feel the same way when shown that there are other ways to think about something; a new perspective that I hadn’t even considered, but when shown, I think “yes, of course, why didn’t I see that?”
It’s actually kind of thrilling for me, it induces frisson.
…when the world rises up and breaks the model of it in your head, some of us are tickled by the experience and are happy to revise our models.
This! A thousand times this. I’m not a scientist, but I’m a fan of science. When I read a story about new evidence kicking over a theory, I think it’s cool. For instance, when they found unfossilized tissue inside dinosaur bones a few years ago, I was awestruck.
Er, jamessweet and I seem to like very much alike… :-)
I love the passive aggressive “sorry not p.c.” So, you realize that most people think your ideas are crackpot, but not enough to keep them to yourself. But you’d also like to crawl up onto the cross of victimhood at the horrible prospect of people not agreeing with you. A wiser mythological figure than Yahweh noted that you should “Do, or do not.”
“We’re short on mothers, not pilots Westjet.”
The population is increasing, & the airlines say they don’t have enough trained or prospective pilots, so I’d say David has his head badly scrambled on many fronts. Whatever does Proverbs have to do with aeronautics?
Perhaps we should send the idiot David this – http://www.researchgate.net/publication/41758332_Male_proportion_in_offspring_of_military_air_pilots_in_Norway – (link to complete text at right) – then maybe he’ll stop flying or even insist that all pilots should be women!
And I wish airlines would tell me when a bigoted asshole is in the seat next to mine so I could book another flight, but we don’t always get what we want.
From a cursory reading, Proverbs 31 seems to think women should be doing a hell of a lot more than being mothers, by the way, including working with their hands, buying fields, planting vineyards, selling linen, and bringing food from afar “like the merchants’ ships”. I suppose if flying planes had been a thing at the time that was written, women’d be expected to fit that in too.
“Others are annoyed and offended at the defiance of their sacred preconceptions and want to insist that the world cohere to them. And then their brains just drift farther and farther from reality, step by step”
you really have it in for UKIP today.
#6 peterh:
What the airlines really mean when they say this is, “we can’t find any pilots who are willing to work for $19,000 a year.”
I disagree with your assertion, “I’m some deeply, intrinsically egalitarian liberal with no biases at all.”
Everyone has biases. Where you are different is that you work to recognize your biases, understand why you have them, and avoid them in the future. Dave, on the other hand, assumes that his biases reflect the natural order of things works only to force those biases on everyone else.
After reading your post again, I realize that I misunderstood your point. Never mind what I wrote above.
Quote for context?
“(…) isn’t that I’m some deeply, intrinsically egalitarian liberal with no biases at all.”
(my bold)
peterh @6,
Regarding “We’re short on mothers, not pilots Westjet.”…
David probably uses “we” not to refer to the world, but more likely to white Christians in the U.S. Remember that some of them participate in mass breeding programs, such as Quiverfull, to eventually win power through demographics.
It seems I’m always too late never minding. :/
It is interesting that you should use the term “tickled” to describe your experience. One theory of humor proposes that mirth is the reward we get for revising our models of the world. Those who are reluctant or unable to revise their ways of thinking have a poor (or warped) sense of humor.
David, I want to smack you in the head with an angry Humboldt squid. Respectively in love, Borax. Sorry not PC.
His “Sorry not PC” bit and claim there aren’t enough mothers makes me suspect he’s one of those “I’m not a racist, but….” types who are upset too many non-white people are immigrating to Canada. Betcha he even has a “Muslim friend,” aka the university student working part time at his local Tim Hortons.
Really? Now this is an extraordinary claim given the inflexibility, bigotry and out right refusal to adapt shown by many within the atheist community. Wimmin n minorities want us to be more welcoming? Fuck that!
Maybe at a stretch I’d agree religion is a vehicle whereby people with those traits are allowed to operate unchallenged… But again, look at the “leadership” of the skeptical and atheist communities O_o
The head of pilot training at British Airways recently said “What we’re after is the best person for the job, and if we’re only looking at half the population then we’re clearly missing a trick”.
robinjohnson: yep, while Proverbs 31 isn’t exactly a feminist tract, neither does it portray the virtuous woman as the sort of meek baby-factory I sense David prefers. But, see, while it describes a savvy, property-owning businesswoman, she’s still at home when it matters, on sammich-duty, unlike those uppity pilots, flying all over the world and spending time in hotels with men!
For David, from Proverbs 31:8: “Open thy mouth for the dumb…”
I bet it would be absolutely charming to be seated next to David on the plane if one is a woman on her way to a business meeting.
I’m afraid I suffer from a lot of instinctive biases and preconceptions. My first thought on reading the napkin note was that David is probably either very young (teenager/early 20’s) … or very old (older than me.) There’s no good reason to assume that, however. Black and white thinking and a sense of being the persecuted voice speaking in the wilderness are not exclusive to either the inexperienced or the curmudgeonly.
My prejudiced reaction that “yeah, and I bet there’s religion behind this, too” does appear to be supported by the Bible quote, though — so I can duck that one.
One of the distinguishing traits of supernatural thinking is the prime place it gives to one’s “instincts,” too easily interpreted by the faithful as the elucidated voice of God or the inner prompting of Spirit. It’s the origin of “deep down, you just know.”
Onamission5@20: For some of us it would be the best in-flight entertainment ever. How much fun would it be to get the guy frothing, so that when the plane landed, he was removed by local law enforcement in handcuffs?
I thought political correctness was a method of developing euphemisms for “other” people that sound less offensive than they really are, not a bald-faced misogynistic belief that women have no business operating aircraft.
My mistake?
Okay, that makes less sense than it did in my head.
Also (last one, I promise) It’s my experience that low-cost carriers are more apt to hire women as pilots. I think we can all guess why.
re everybody:
Go to the URL PZ provided in the OP, and then, follow the link there, to Steacy’s “Reply” to the “kind note”. It is much kinder and more informative than the “middle finger” I would have given David.
—
Yes, we all have misogynistic (racist, ableist, etc) thoughts, but the difference is that -ists, (as opposed to just having -ic attitudes) don’t question those attitudes and just express them with no question, and just assume they are entitled to do so. The point of this OP was not just to lambast Mr. David for writing that “little note”, but to teach us that it is better if we question our attitudes first before acting on them. Like ole Twain said, “Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.” [looking at you, Mr. David] Better if you had just remained silently in “distress” over that woman in the cockpit, than leaving that note and declaring to the world what a fool you are.
I’m with the other people who noted about the “not PC” section of his note. It’s like he’s trying to do a pre-emptive strike against criticism and setting himself up to be the victim.
gog, AFAIK the original intent of the notion of being “PC” was not to offend if you don’t have to which much meant not using sexist/racist language. Now it seems like half the time people are using it as a something to rebel against to justify being a jerk. I believe the current version of PC is the phrase “don’t be a jerk”.
I like the whole “fair lady” thing too. Seriously jerkass?
Off topic a bit, but a while back I read a story about a flight instructor who said men had more confidence than competence and that with women, it was the reverse.
This reminds me of something written by Nelson Mandela in his autobiography:
“We put down briefly in Khartoum, where we changed to an Ethiopian Airways flight to Addis. Here I experienced a rather strange sensation. As I was boarding the plane I saw that the pilot was black. I had never seen a black pilot before, and the instant I did I had to quell my panic. How could a black man fly an airplane? But a moment later I caught myself: I had fallen into the apartheid mind-set, thinking Africans were inferior and that flying was a white man’s job. I sat back in my seat, and chided myself for such thoughts. Once we were in the air, I lost my nervousness and studied the geography of Ethiopia, thinking how guerrilla forces hid in these very forests to fight the Italian imperialists.”
I think the difference between me and David isn’t that I’m some deeply, intrinsically egalitarian liberal with no biases at all
I’m going to respectfully disagree and say that the difference is that you are an egalitarian liberal and that David is a dumbass. As egalitarian liberals we know our stereotypes are false whereas dumbasses believe they are true. When we find a stereotype broken we may or may not be personally tickled but even if we aren’t (does that classical music professor have behave like a beer swilling football watching yahoo in his spare time? It doesn’t fit my preconceived stereotypes, no sir, it does not) we know that it is we and the stereotypes that are wrong and we adjust ourselves accordingly. We certainly wouldn’t leave notes saying the world should change to suit us.
I wish fair David would tell the world about his future itineraries so we all can make plans to be somewhere else.
My own mother was a good example of this – she got her private pilot license when I was a child in the early 70’s (made for some really fun times looking down at my small town when I was a kid) and when I got to meet her instructor later in life (an old grizzled cropdusting pilot), he told me she was the only woman in a class that had about 30 men. She was also the only person in the class that passed her written exam on the first attempt. He had the same observation about women pilots – “they don’t have all that macho shit that makes them try stupid things.” Not to say that women aren’t capable of stupid piloting behavior just as men are, but interesting nonetheless.
In addition to the good points made here in the echo chamber, I’d like to emphasize the utter cowardice of this particular approach. I get similar reactions in writing, when I’m safely not around, for the anti-religious bumper stickers on my car. The most I ever get in person is a dirty look. The religious sheep are just that, they are so afraid of intellectual confrontation, they almost never engage in it. They don’t engage in physical confrontation either, unless they have a gross advantage (abortion clinic bombers/shooters, etc.).
@jamessweet #1: “What makes people different is how they react to it.” To me, that *is* what differentiates a racist from a non-racist, a misogynist from a non-misogynist, etc. We’re all subject to racist socialization in a racist society (or discourse); what matters is how we react to those socialized views. If we attempt to preserve, reinforce, or further institutionalize them, we’re racists. If we push back against them and attempt to deconstruct, de-institutionalize, and dismantle them, we’re anti-racists.
Of course, since a woman was flying the plane, it crashed and there were no survivors. David, in seat 12E, will be missed.
At least the note didn’t start by saying, “I’m a Christian…”.
But then, it didn’t need to.
I’ve thought of a new business- Relic Alert bracelets. Any hyper-religious sporting such a bracelet (large, heavy gold cross or crescent shape, naturally) is showing that they only want to be served by women in traditional roles (stay-at-home mothers), so any woman uppity enough to have a job should go elsewhere and help the next person. That means female Emergency Medical Technicians and doctors should let them wait for a Real Man(tm), even if it means bleeding a bit longer. Female pilots should let them go on standby for the next flight with a male pilot *and* copilot, for the usual fee (it’s a voluntary change) no matter how long it takes. That might be a little problematic with emergency medical flights… oh well.
Same idea with committed woo-lovers. They can have a gen-u-wine copper-magnetic-homeopathic WooGaia-Alert bracelet that indicates they insist only on being treated by naturopaths with woo-magic-water only. None of that chemical-tainted medication or non-organic saline solution or preserved blood, no sirree.
* The minor side effects and inconveniences that may result, such as death, are purely coincidental and voluntary. That this may improve the gene pool is also a possibility. Anyone want to go in on this venture with me?
Is anyone else wondering why he wants to fly again with a female pilot, despite thinking women are unsuitable pilots? It’s almost as if he is implicitly acknowledging that there is no difference in risk and just wants another opportunity to piss and whine.
[lightbulb goes off, digs into another thread…]
I’ve been dealing with quite a few Davids over the past four weeks…
If there was a place to use the Waaaahmbulance meme…
She flies, though, so according to the bible she’s a “fowl” anyway. I don’t see why he’d have an issue with it.
This is why the internet is entertainingly dangerous and provides evidence prejudice exists. Such finger wagging tut-tutting circles the globe a few times within a week. Of course, there will be those fun people that claim it’s a hoax to boost the victimhood of women bcuz ‘bitches b lyin’ but Canadian media are having a fine time with ‘David’s’ whingeing.
For those of you flying into Kamloops, BC, for INR4 in May, odds are high it will be a WestJet flight on the Kamloops leg and might even be this pilot. Maybe you all can leave notes too.
He wants to know if a woman is piloting so he can book a different flight (one without a woman pilot). [He didn’t mean another flight (like this one all over again).]
Yes, I read it the same way you did at first, realized it didn’t make sense, and reread it.
@gog: “It’s my experience that low-cost carriers are more apt to hire women as pilots. I think we can all guess why.” Less “old boys” to make them feel unwelcome? Westjet were hiring women pilots from their first flight.
@swampfoot: Westjet starting salary is $40k/year. They also run on an employee share program. Downside is they aren’t unionized. There are probably shittier places to work.
From the pilot’s FB page: “the ‘cockpit,’ (we now call it the flight deck as no cocks are required)” <–I like her.
“when the world rises up and breaks the model of it in your head, some of us are tickled by the experience and are happy to revise our models”
My general reaction is “Let’s do that again!”
If only he had actually READ the Proverb he so graciously cited:
The whole proverb is about the Real value of a Wife; being more than just a housekeeper and child bearer, etc.
He probably read it and only paid attention to the descriptions of her tasks that only a woman can accomplish.
I somehow doubt he read it, and is just demanding others to read it and interpret it EXACTLY as he did. Bible thumpers NEVER read that Book they like to thump so much, WHY???
In all my years of customer service, the only time I can remember anyone demanding to be served by a man, the woman was clearly mentally ill.
Luckily for David, the Progressive Conservative party is long gone on the federal scene, having been taken over by the Reform party (which includes a strong religious wing) and renamed the Conservative party. The number of oxymorons is bewildering.
” Not impressed respectfully in love, David”.
Of course, he has neither respect nor love for a woman doing a job that doesn’t conform to his beliefs. Gilipollas!
when the “world” shows me my biases about people usually as a shock of fear I often have this sequence of reactions.
First is the fear or distrust that is often my first reaction generally with any new person or place except wild nature of course.
then reason pops up and it “is wait a minute ” what was that? wow! is that real or irrational?
then it is a period of toleration of the uncomfortable feeling and recurring thoughts.
then there is a period I find most perplexing I find myself very reluctant to trust that things are changing in a positive direction both the world outside my head and inside my head.
I really have a black cloud that hovers over my mind. I do not trust that warm feeling I get when things go well and it looks like it is changing for the better. very complicated feelings but I sure do not want my personal paranoid fears and delusions to be real!
then after a bit it just becomes normal and really cool even.
FORWARD!
uncle frogy
@weathermax,
I’ve heard it a few times. However, the few times it did happen, the “man” the irate customer got to talk to was the husband of the woman the customer just spent 15 minutes berating. Needless to say, he was not amused by this, and whatever discounts and concessions had been in the bill prior to this evaporated.
I notice the “sorry I’m not PC” crowd consistently use the politically correct phrase “politically incorrect” instead of saying what they really mean: “Sorry I’m a douchebag…not!”
David, welcome to the 21st century. The 1930s would like its stereotype back.
Misogyny Quiz!
1. If being a mother is the most honor for a woman, why is it that being a father isn’t the most honor for a man?
2. If it is as well, why is it that men still get to have a career in addition to being a father but mothers don’t?
3. Why are you crying over the “breakdown of the family” by phrasing it as lack of mother when really the bigger issues regarding the family is lack of fathers? There aren’t nearly as many deadbeat moms, ya know.
4. If anything is mere vanity, it is loudly complaining about the sex of the pilot, when you are just one of many people flying, and most people don’t have nearly the same revulsion to the idea of a woman pilot?
If I were a fella at Westjet, I’d probably make sure his next flight was just wall-to-wall ladies.
Don’t be so cruel to women, Rey Fox. Just give him a private flight on the crappiest plane you can find, with the most incompetent male pilot you can find. Okay, maybe I am crueler…
while it may be true that airline pilots have in the past been mostly men, it is not true that there have not always been women pilots from the very beginning of aviation. Attitudes like mr napkin note displayed always give off the strong smell of country bumpkin with a strong inclination toward pomposity.
it ain’t the 1930’s it is the 1830’s or maybe 1530’s
uncle frogy
Just book David to his destination, and his baggage as far away as possible. Put him between the two LARGEST people available, in Coach.
Ehh, who’s counting.
David is so dedicated to his ideology and religion, he is willing and able to ignores facts. The fact that a lady pilot was able to get him (and everybody else on the plane) to his destination. I doubt it was the first time she was able to do this nor will it be the last. And David would like the company to take the time and make the effort to inform him if he has to suffer the indignity flying a plane piloted by a woman.
He asks the company to do something it seems he will not do himself. Does he take the time to avoid places that employ women doing jobs that they should not hold? Will he avoid his own job if there are women working jobs that he thinks they should not hold?
Sounds like a powerless man, who who is whining that the world does not fit into his own blinkered vision.
I hope David chokes on his own silent frustrations.
Maybe there is a flag that they can put on his account so that every ticket printed for him contains the warning: “Flight may be piloted by one or more women.”
Dear David,
If you’d like to guarantee that you’ll always be piloted by a man, here’s a handy tip:
Learn to fly.
Okay, I just looked into it myself. I retract my insinuation that Westjet underpays their pilots (even based on gender). It seems their starting salary is in line with industry standards.
I’m amusing myself imagining this man’s reaction to a flight with a female pilot and an over-the-top stereotypical gay flight attendant (made over-the-top on purpose, not that male flight attendants or gay men in general behave in that manner).
What a bigot!
When I first met my wife I spent a long time trying to save her. She was lost in syncretistic (mis)teachings that were drawing her away from the one true God. After too long a time, I relented, and began to accept her personal leanings and started to see that she needed to find her own way and not be taught by a ‘qualified’ teacher. I eventually asked forgiveness for being an asshole. The asshole writing on napkins, take note. This woman knows what she wants, I imagine, and she flies YOU, you stupid fuck. Get your head around that…Just because you do not appreciate how you get from A to B, does not mean the folk who got you there have the wrong crotch parts…. fuck me, sometimes religion seems like a dumb adolescent with a hard-on!
I can’t recall ever hearing the term “politically correct” used by anyone not whining that their douchbaggery is generally frowned upon.
I’m always fascinated (and by fascinated I mean “dumbstruck”) by all those bible fondlers who seem to think that life in the bronze age somehow resembled the 1950’s middle class white America with SAHMs and Tupperware parties. There is no “provider” who goes out to bring home the bacon and a “housekeeper” who then turns it into a BLT in a pre-industrialized agrarian society. There is just everybody working their asses off so they won’t starve.
“And unfortunately we live in a culture where religion is a vehicle for promoting inflexibility, in an era where we need to adapt.”
Two of my personal obsessive hobbies are studying geopolitics and world economic trends. The description “an era where we need to adapt” is entirely correct, of course.
Meanwhile, we’re seeing a vast amount of inflexibility, particularly among the powerful. But it *doesn’t seem to come from religion* — or at least not religions which *call* themselves “religion”. There is certainly a religious *character* to the talk of “austerity” and “balanced budgets”, but nobody claims that it’s an actual religion.
It would be really worthwhile if we could understand this “doctrinaire” frame of mind better, but I believe the psychologists and anthropologists are still working on it.