Unreason being represented by its champion, religion…as always. The rational politicians in Idaho are trying to end the practice of faith healing on children; the irrationally religious politicians are trying to stop them.
A Republican lawmaker in Idaho is trying to stop a law aimed at preventing the deaths of children whose parents eschew medical treatment in favor of prayer. The Associated Press reported that state Rep. Christy Perry (R) believes that a law proposed by Democratic Rep. John Gannon violates religious freedom of families who believe God’s will supercedes modern medicine.
“This is about religious beliefs, the belief God is in charge of whether they live, and God is in charge of whether they die,” said Perry of the Followers of Christ, an extremist group who have let at least four children die of treatable illnesses in the last three years.
Perry, your beliefs do not trump the reality of dead children.
One group says god commands us to keep fetuses alive at all costs, another says god wants children to die instead of getting medical care.
And to state the obvious, I don’t care if you choose to die instead of getting medical care because of your religion, as long as you’re consistent and don’t end up in the ER costing resources that would have been saved if you’d gotten early treatment. But your children? You don’t get to make the decision not to provide them with a standard of care that would almost certainly easily keep them alive. Your right to practice your religion ends where your child’s life begins.
“One group says god commands us to keep fetuses alive at all costs, another says god wants children to die instead of getting medical care.”
I’m sure if you listen hard enough, that can be resolved for you.
\Not\
No, it’s about children dying unnecessarily. That particular God of yours is a huge fan of death, not the best thing to put in charge, eh?
Idiots.
gussnarp:
Which is perfectly consistent – the first is keeping women under control and in their place, the second demonstrates just how much they care about the children.
How about the old saying: “God helps them who help themselves.”?
FIFY
…your beliefs do not trump the reality of dead children.
Which, ISTM, is also what the gnu control debate a few posts down the page boils down to as well.
I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes when I was in my twenties. A have heard of several children with Type 1 whose parents take this approach and basically let their kid die.
I can’t possibly imagine a more cruel, inhumane or awful way for a parent to treat their child. It would be a very slow, lingering, painful death.
I hope that eventually, all 50 stakes pass laws that allow for parents who murder their children this way to be burned alive.
Doesn’t the children’s right to life trump their parents’ right to attempt ineffective magical cures?
With a record like that, I would like to see the child protection agency removing each child from the group at birth.
erichoug:
Yeah, that’s gonna help.
In addition to invoking the sacred right to believe whatever you want as long as you consider it religious (or Spiritual), opponents to this bill will also bring up an equally sacred idea: that children are the undisputed property of their parents. Combine the two into an unholy mess of A Parent’s Right (and Duty) to Bring Their Child Up to Know God and you’ve got a powerful defense against reason AND compassion.
The children do not die: they move into the arms of a God who welcomes them gladly for the sake of their parents’ great faith. Prove it wrong, atheists!
This again.
It’s just the fundie xian practice of human child sacrifice to their monster god. It’s estimated that around 100 of these gruesome rituals are performed each year.
It’s way more than that. That must just be ones in Idaho that hit the newspapers. The child mortality rate in these cults is 25% or so, below most of the third world. I’ve found a few families that had two kids die and one where 3 kids and 2 adults died. This is a death cult.
If god’s will supersedes medicine, then why are they so concerned about what medical treatment the children get? Surely if god really wants the kids to die, no doctor will be able to save them.
If the kid lives, that is proof that god didn’t really want them to die, so they didn’t disobey his will. On the other hand, if the kid does die, despite treatment, then god’s will was done. So, what’s the problem?
LOL. OK.
God wants us to stop the human child sacrifice slaughter by the Followers of Christ and other faith healing groups. Prove that wrong!!! It’s even in the bible somewhere. Checkmate.
FWIW, a lot of members in these cults aren’t too upset when faith healing deaths of children are outlawed. Then they can take their kids to the doctor instead of watching them die all the time. And blame it on the atheists, pagans, satan, and the government. It’s OK if they blame me.
LykeX:
Seeking out non-God intervention. Only god is allowed to intervene. If it’s otherwise, why it proves your faith is weak as water!
I’ve had to deal with these cults a few times here and there.
They are even creepier than they look.
When their kids die of simple easily treatable illnesses, they don’t seem to care that much. Happens all the time, no big deal.
The reason is simple. They fear their monster god a lot more than they love their kids and they say so. It makes sense except for one thing. Far as we know, their Sky Monster god doesn’t exist except in their own minds.
@Caine
But the legislation solves that problem. Since the parents are legally required to seek out treatment, doing so doesn’t imply anything about their faith and the bible does (according to some interpretations) demand that Christians obey secular authorities.
Alternately, you could argue that refusing medical treatment is a sin of pride. They assume that their feeble decisions could possibly alter the divine plan. They should just do whatever those silly secularists ask, secure in the knowledge that god’s plan will always prevail.
LykeX:
Yes, they should. Unfortunately, they seem to be allergic to logic.
If god had intended parents to depend on faith healing, he wouldn’t have invented doctors.
Also, it’s like xians who find themselves dying – these people *know* medicine is stronger than their god. In their terms, it’s a battle of gods, medicine vs yahweh, and they know their puny god won’t win. If you let a child suffer horribly though, and they are one of the lucky ones who survives, why it just goes to show how strong and wonderful their puny god is, so there!
Wait, seriously? Her name is Christy Perry????
I have no particular problem with adults deciding not to get medical treatment, though I worry about ignorance or mental illness being a foundation to such a choice. But you should not get to decide that for someone else.
@johnwoodford, 7
Yeah, those damned gnu’s running all over the place. Deadly.
Sorry, I don’t usually point out typo’s unless they’re funny. Like the guy on another blog about stem cells complaining about colons being banned, so he can’t make more of himself…
@erick, 24
Sorry, old USENET habit. Once upon a time, there were people who would search all newsgroups for the phrase “gun control” and descend on whatever thread had included it, laying it waste with incredibly long and tedious argumentative posts. Long since obsolete, but old habits die hard.
But you know, in a fine example of the adage about all spelling corrections containing at least one error, I don’t think plurals should be apostrophized ;-).
Johnwoodford:
Yep, like the use of pr0n.
God didn’t invent them, they are the work of SATAN!!!!!Satan’s temptation to lead us away from God’s grace!!!11!1! Gotcha, atheists!!!
@ erichoug
Oddly enough, torturing and killing people is not an appropriate response to people torturing and killing people.
@ otrame @23:
Watch it with using mental illness as an accusation.
I’ve always dreamed of the idjit pastors/priests/reverends/fuckwitted idjits who tell parents to “let Jebus work” should be brought up on child endangerment charges if it fails, with ideally one-(or at most two)-strike-and-your-out type penalties. I wonder how much they really think Jebus will cure with their own ass on the line….
Please tell me this issue was decided by the Supreme Court already. This is happening right now in Ohio. A court ordered an Amish family to have their daughter treated for cancer. They fled the country instead.
Amish family flees Ohio to avoid chemo for daughter
So in the end Yahweh and Moloch aren’t so different after all…
I know it’s uncharitable to wish a ruptured esophagus on Christy Perry–but that didn’t stop me just now from wishing it.
This is the rock bottom of fundamentalist depravity–until the next fundie digs down ever farther.
Well, Raven, I’ve often found this rhetoric to be irritatingly hyperbolic; here I have to agree that you’re right (please don’t regard that as a reason to change your mind).
“even farther” I meant to say.
michaelbusch@28
Otrame was talking an adult’s right to refuse or consent to treatment for themselves, specifically the situation where an adult’s mental health problems lead them to refuse treatment. Laws exist to override their right to do so; this is an area of genuine concern in medical ethics. (You also have a related situation where someone is demanding unnecessary treatment.) It was a sidetrack from the issue of children’s rights discussed here, but not a slur on the hypothetical patient in question.
Moloch only wanted the first-born, I think. Yahweh rolls the dice for all your children.
I hope to see the day when children are reconised as people and parenting is seen as a duty, not a right.
That will be the day when inflicting harm through believing in stupid instead of giving children medical care will be seen for what it is: child abuse
The root of the problem is at the federal level. The Child Abuse and Protection Act (CAPTA), requires states to include failure to provide medical care in their definitions of neglect, but then includes this clause:
“Nothing in this Act shall be construed as establishing a Federal requirement that a parent or legal guardian provide a child any medical service or treatment against the religious beliefs of the parent or legal guardian. . . .”
Without this clause states would not be able to provide religious exemptions from civil and criminal law. When it was debated in the US Senate, Sen Dan Coats (R – IN), argued that parents had a First Amendment right to deny medical care to their children.
@ David #39:
Yeah? You and whose pantheon?
+ 1
How’s this for an idea:
If you let your child die, or even suffer, because of your religious beliefs of not allowing medical care, then you shall, for the rest of your life, be forbidden to use so much as an aspirin on yourself.
Headache? Pray it away.
Broken bone? Pray it back together.
Leg gone gangranous, because that broken bone wasn’t set properly? Amputation through prayer.
If we can’t protect the kids, at least this seems like an alternative.
redjuggler:
Er, you are aware that religions which preach no medical treatment is applicable to all of them, right?
When an Oregon couple was tried for manslaughter in 2011, after allowing their infant to die rather than seek medical care, a number of church members showed up to support them (the same Followers of Christ church mentioned in the OP). Most were wearing glasses, some had hearing aids, all of which seems a little problematic for those who preach no medical treatment at all, as the Followers do.
tomh:
I seem to recall that most religious groups like this have an exemption for such things, as they are classified as aids, not medical treatment.
@ #45
Typical rationalization by the religious. Their prescriptions may well have been signed by doctors. Some also visit dentists, which they no doubt rationalize also.
This reporter has covered the Followers of Christ for over ten years. When he returned to the Idaho chapter in 2013, he found 10 new children’s graves in their cemetary, all since he had been there in 2011.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/justice/maryland-exorcism-deaths/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
So, the kids are not really sick, but they have demons and an exorcism is required. Another way for parents to use religion to kill their children.
@30: If the Amish family was so devot, how in Hades did they get to Central America without using modern ‘conveniences’??
@44: If these ‘aids’ aren’t in the bible, why are they leaning on something their g?d didn’t mention?
I had to deal with a friend of a friend (I didn’t like this person, so my charity level was low) who had Hodgkin’s, was undergoing chemo, but ‘knew’ that “Science doesn’t work”. I told him to quit chemo then and rely on his religion. He didn’t take me up on that.