As I sit here wracked by some rather intense intestinal distress (I think my travels are catching up to me today), it’s rather nice to read words acknowledging my malevolent power. They don’t seem to alleve these nasty mundane illnesses — I’m still going to have to sporadically run to the bathroom — but I’m glad someone somewhere is keeping up the illusion. Unfortunately, it would be someone who lives permanently in a fantasy world, so it’s not all that esteem-bolstering.
The embittered acknowledgement of my puissance is coming from Paul Elam, at A Voice for Men.
I am sure this might have wowed the crowd at FTB, as they are a rather insulated group thanks to their mindless allegiance to the edicts of PZ Myers.
Ah, good ol’ mindless allegiance. It’s going to be great this weekend at CONvergence, where many of my zombified minions will be in attendance — I shall be carried about on a palanquin, fanned by my lickspittles, fed chocolate and wine at my merest gesture.
Oh, heck, wait — I’m going to be expected to help haul supplies to our room. They’re probably going to bring me crashing down to earth about as effectively as these bacteria.
What could have caused Elam to sneer at me this time? What did I do? Nothing, as it turns out: someone else at FtB pissed him off, and I’m just the puppetmaster. He’s actually really unhappy with Ally Fogg, who has been writing about domestic violence perpetrated by both men and women. Apparently, this is supposed to rouse my wrath.
Though I do expect we will eventually see a one-up as followup article from PZ not too far down the road. If Fogg gets traction with the FTB crowd, Myers won’t long stay silent. He will be there with the “real, real, real” story on intimate partner violence. It will be alpha wars, a secular death match.
Wait, I’ve been promoted to Alpha now? I thought I was a beta mangina or something.
I guess I’d better not stay silent — I must roar with fury (uh, except that I think that’s just my guts rumbling) and attack my challenger!
Except…
There are so many misconceptions there.
I don’t run Freethoughtblogs. Ed Brayton is in charge.
None of us have any say in what other bloggers write. There’s no seal of approval required, you can even disagree with the alpha-male-sort-of-master-of-FtB-only-not-really.
We try to sign on people who are on “our side”, who we can work with reasonably well, but that’s about it. That definitely shapes the general views here, but it’s a looser and broader perspective than Mr Elam thinks.
And this Ally Fogg guy? When he was suggested as a candidate for the network, we all reviewed his writings to see if he’d be a good fit, and we agreed. I voted for bringing him on, because I thought he was a thoughtful person who was writing about significant issues in social justice. I still do.
Contrary to certain lunatic opinions, this is not the man-hating network (that would be awkward for me if it were), nor is it the woman-are-perfect network. Having someone on board who is able to advocate for men’s rights without doing so by hating women is actually a legitimate part of our cause.
Sorry, Elam! At least you can console yourself over being so stupidly wrong by knowing I’m feeling less than wonderful today!
Now, guts, OBEY ME! OBEY ME NOOOOOOW!
Damn, I think they’re going to be as obedient to my wishes as all those other bloggers here, and you commenters, too.
I won’t ask where here is.
Dear Paul Elam:
I punched out an MRA once. Dropped the fucker like a potato.
This was long before I knew who PZ Myers was.
Just thought you can add that to your litany of crimes against men.
Feel better soon, mighty Poopyhead.
Here is where I sit, broken hearted…
Behold PZ, the Great and Terrible….!
Anthony, didn’t you know that when men fight each other, that just proves that the ebil feminists are manipulating them? It has nothing to do with patriarchy and gender stereotypes that tell boys that “real men” solve their problems with violence. It’s the wimminz! I don’t know why you punched this person. (I hope it was in self defense or in the ring.) But, Elam will likely consider it misandry and find a way to blame feminism. Of course, I imagine that when Elam loses a sock in the laundry he blames feminism.
Intestinal trouble? I blame
RichRebecca Watson.That’s what I hear. But in truth, as any good skeptic knows, evo psych proves that men are hypersexualised and hyperviolent. It’s in our genes.
It was the former. But he had it coming.
Of course it’s the fault of women. Who do you think makes up the bulk of the garment workers who exploit the white male capitalists who run their companies?
I followed the link and read most of it I have no idea what this “dudebro” is on about other than he is consistent in his inability to read what is written without distorting it to match his personal opinions and attitudes.
the linked post seems reasonably objective and tries to start an open dialog about a subject that is mostly avoided unless it can be sensationalized for effect.
uncle frogy
Oh yeah. I forgot. I must have been distract by something pink. You know me, always subconsciously searching for berries.
…not that I’ve ever seen a pink berry. Red, blue, purple, sure. Pink? Nope. That must be why I’m hard wired to look for them. They’re so hard to find!
If Fogg gets traction with the FTB crowd, Myers won’t long stay silent…
Well, he’s kinda sorta right about that: Fogg is getting traction, and you’re not staying silent.
Wait, I’ve been promoted to Alpha now? I thought I was a beta mangina or something.
You were, but now you’re an alpha mangina. I guess that’s sort of like a dyke — except Elam and his kind won’t advocate raping you to make you straight.
Oh man, I can’t wait until my evil over
lordlady powers develop!*attempts to remember the quote from The Monarch about emerging from a chrysalis or some shit, but due to lack of sleep fails miserably*
If Elam was mad at Ally before… Ally’s letter to him should provoke an amusing response.
*gets popcorn*
Bloody borked link. Fixed
You’re going to get the Hoggler all hot and bothered, you know.
“without doing so by hating women”
I believe the underlying assumption for MRAs is that this is not possible. They live in zero sum world, baby. Anything that helps people who aren’t them counts as hurting them. They deserve to have more, to always have more, and to always have us at the same distance behind them – never catching up. Anything else is just unfair.
Jackie @ #10:
Oh yeah. I forgot. I must have been distract by something pink. You know me, always subconsciously searching for berries.
…not that I’ve ever seen a pink berry. Red, blue, purple, sure. Pink? Nope. That must be why I’m hard wired to look for them. They’re so hard to find!
You think they’re hard to find now, just try finding them in the African grasslands where, I’m reliably informed, all of our instincts evolved.
Ah, ha! PZ has been outed as not only the puppet master of Pharyngulites, but of all of FreethoughtBlogs!
Don’t let his unassuming, professorial air deceive you!
Our Evil Overlord needs a costume befitting his dastardliness. We want all of planet earth to recognize and fear him.
Naw, some of our instincts must have evolved before that. Just look at animals, man!
[Stands back and nods seriously, content that the BESTEST ARGUMENT EVAR has been made.]
You just like using the word “puissance” in a sentence, don’t you?
Alpha, beta, omega….. must be nice when you can shoehorn the entire male population into neat categories so you don’t have to think or care about male individuals.
I know it’s been said before, but MRAs must really hate men. And Elam appears to really hate men more than most.
Must Obey PZ..Must tell wife who has a broken arm to go to airport by herself to pick up our daughter so I can attend Convergence and PZ Must Bring PZ Chocolate.
Poor Paul Elam. Reality simply stubbornly refuses to conform to his delusions and deep seated persecution complex. While it may seem that this indicates that Paul has difficulty discerning reality from his fantasies of oppression at the hands of the castrating feminazi militia, Paul would probably favour a different explanation.
*Imagine a nice distortion visual effect denoting the passage through the looking glass into Bizarro world here*
You see, in the world according to Paul Elam, the universe itself is misandrist. The whole of reality is one big, man hating harpy that exists purely to torment poor little Paul and those brave heroes like him. One needs look no further than the terrible health risks pregnancy poses to men, exacerbated by the way in which so many societies and ideologies fixate on controlling men’s bodies, and in particular their capacity for sex and procreation. Most notably, there are the many religions whose privilged priestesses invest huge time, money and effort trying to control men in pursuit of the notional commands of the many variants of a misandranistic, female deity who supposedly obsesses endlessly over the immorality of men and male sexuality.
The widespread dehumanisation and oppression of men, including the disproportionate incidence of domestic violence and rape of men when compared to women. The way in which the life options of men are curtailed by their gender, with regard to the glass ceiling insuring that few men ever reach senior positions within industry, and wage inequality mandating that men are usually paid less than women for doing the same work. Not to mention the way in which men were denied political enfranchisement until only relatively recently even in the supposedly more ‘liberal’ regions of ethe world, with groups like the suffra-blokes being forced to campaign for many years merely to be granted basic political rights. The infamous Republican war on men in the US speaks for itself…
Isn’t that right Mr Elam…?
Gregory Greenwood: I’ve always been under the impression, when those sorts of things come up, that the men who believe them somehow believe that women have personally taken ahold of their masculinity (not a euphemism for their penis) and are somehow preventing them from having it.
And then I feel very, VERY sorry for them.
Fuck off, you lazy bastard!
barbyau@16:
If I can judge by the anti-feminist commenters (many of whom insist they are not MRAs to be fair) at Ally’s, this is about right. The comments went something like this:
Anti-feminist: “Wait, how can we address violence against men without diverting funds from shelters for abused women?”
Ally: “Well, that’s not really how government funding works.”
AF: “Ah! You show your true colors! Obviously if you don’t want to take money away from programs for abused women you are secretly against programs for abused men!”
One word my friend: Pepto!
That’s it! Rich goes in the pit of scorpions.
..or is it into the giant mutated cuttlefish tank?
Rick if you’ll just wait here, I’ll go double check. Thanks.
But then it’s doom for you!
Doom I say!
Oops…I mistyped Rich’s name. I think that means he gets off on a technicality.
Very well, Rich. You escaped this time.
You should probably more specific about which gestures are a request for chocolate and wine PZ, and which are, say, you just shaking it off after a visit to the urinal. You don’t want an overzealous personal guard executing your favourite jester because they mistook your facial callisthenics aimed at dislodging a tenacious booger for dissatisfaction with the performance.
#onewhosbeenthere
mouthyb, Vagina McTits @ 24;
They do seem to have a very fragile sense of identity, and in particular their masculine gender identity, such that any recognition of the personhood and equality of women – any empowerment of women beyond the status of disposeable sex toy/ambulatory incubator – is viewed as a direct assault on their own personal masculinity, and simultaneously as nothing less than an attempt to destroy the very notion of any form of ‘maleness’ within society altogether. For people who seem to place so much value on toxic tropes of ‘rugged’, ‘dominant’ masculinity defined in opposition to notionally ‘weak’, ‘dependent’ femininity, they certainly seem to view their oh-so precious ‘manliness’ as the most delicate of fragile socio-cultural flowers that must be protected from pretty much everything lest in wither before their eyes.
I think it all feeds in to this idea that seems prominent among MRAs that women are the gatekeepers of sex, and are somehow unfairly witholding that sexual congress from MRAs who consider themselves ‘deserving’ of it because they conform to certain memes of the ‘correct’ performance of masculinity. And since it is part and parcel of buying into such regressive notions of ‘true masculinity’ that one must define one’s value as a man almost exclusively by one’s sexual ‘conquests’ (a hateful, monstrously dehumanising concept if ever their was one that frames sex as the spoils of conflict rather than callaboration between equals), they feel that women who ‘deny’ them their ‘rightful’ access to sex – whether on a personal basis or more generally by stating that treating women as fortresses that must be stormed to win the ‘prize’ of sex is misogynistic – are denying them the opportunity to assert and maintain their masculinity in the only way their hideously misogynistic and sadly indequate mindset recognises.
It would have quite the sense of pathos to it, if only they weren’t all such hateful misogynist areshats. I find I have very little capacity for feeling sorry for people who think that rape jokes are the height of humour, or that threats of violence and rape against women designed to silence ther voices is a valid debating tactic.
I might be able to play a few bars for MRAs on the world’s smallest violin, but that would be about it.
@31:
It’s an example of what Fred Clark calls The Myth of the Persecuted Hegemon. His target is conservative Christians, but it seems to fit just MRAs as well.
Gregory Greenwood: Oh, I’m capable of also being angry, while pitying them. They have the wrong rules, they’re playing the wrong game, they don’t understand the consequences of the game and they have the wrong strategies. They’re destructive, violent, vile and occasionally evil, but I still generally have pity for their pain.
I don’t, however, have any pity or empathy for their anger.
well no. I’m pretty sure their male gender identity is quite stable. It’s their masculine gender role/expression that’s fragile.
GG @ 23: The way in which the life options of men are curtailed by their gender, with regard to the glass ceiling insuring that few men ever reach senior positions within industry,
Well, that’s obviously completely wrong.
It’s “ensures”. ;)
Bad combo IMO, although Tokaji might do. Can’t go wrong with Chocolate and scotch.
Right. You need to round out that to a trio with Dexilant.
As you say it, so shall it be done, Your Squidlyness!
mouthyb, Vagina McTits @ 33;
I’m afraid I can’t quite manage that. I suspect that a good deal of their pain is wholly self inflicted and could be mitigated or avoided entirely if they weren’t so fixated on defending toxic concepts of masculinity from all comers.
@ 34;
Agreed – lashing out at people less privileged than oneself is neither an acceptable nor an effective way of dealing with one’s problems, whether real or imagined.
——————————————————————————————————————–
Jadehawk @ 35;
You’re absolutely right. My brain seems to be on strike tonight. Apologies.
———————————————————————————————————————
CaitieCat @ 36;
Help! Help! I’m being oppressed by the femistasi spelling police! Won’t someone think of my poor masculine gender role/expression!!11!!1!Eleventy!
;-P
Someone get this man a scepter.
Ooooo… I now how that feels. If I eat the wrong thing (certain vegetables) and forget to take my daily prilosec, I get horrific gas pains. I swear, it feels like I trying to pass a bowling ball through my digestive tract.
PZ…
I have a friend that for reasons I can not comprehend is a fan of Thunderfoot. It completely baffles me. And, according to this friend, you are in complete and utter control of all that is said on FtB. Ed is merely your toady. All the other bloggers servile minions. Even Thunderfoot’s hacking of FtB was justified, according to this friend, because he used it to PROVE he had been abused by you.
Jeez.
PZ-
We try to sign on people who are on “our side”,
Oh shut the fuck up, after Thunderf00t debacle you became completely marginalized due to revealing your true nature.
I’m perplexed that Thunderf00t has fans at all when it’s clear that he himself is merely a puppet of the Krasaliere Confederacy. What? Never heard of them?
Well, have you heard of the 1919 Slaughter of the Nochigarians of Truro, Nova Scotia? No?
Well, they’re that good.
Marginalised?
I see Thunderf00t’s fans are just as illiterate as he is.
…then why are you still talking to him?
Oh, Igor’s just waiting out his refractory period.
Translation: After the Thunderf00t debacle, Thunderf00t became completely marginalized due to revealing his true nature. But I want you to shut the fuck up about it, because I’m secretly embarrassed to be a Thunderf00t fan, and I love psychological projection.
Elam is a backwards male.
(Coincidence?)
I’ve seen a lot of people in his comments demand that PZ denounce Ally Fogg. It’s not that they are offended by his writings, but the PZ in their heads would be and they are demanding that he behave as they imagine he would. The fact that we’ve had nothing resembling the Thunderf00t situation would seem to indicate he isn’t a bad fit, but a lot of these folks can’t seem to understand the difference between Ally and Thunderf00t. They both challenged evil feminazi hegemony! Why aren’t peopel mad this time?
@54, yes, absolutely – the basic difference they miss between Ally and the rest of that mob is that Ally actually walks the walk. He does things to make life better for men and boys. He does so in a way that doesn’t make it zero-sum, that doesn’t treat our rights as something to be disputing, but something we should each be helping one another uphold.
Also, he doesn’t use the amazingly offensive “feminazi”, ever. I’ve walked out of dinners where I was a guest over people using that one, because it’s intensely offensive, and meant to be. Ally doesn’t, ever. I have a great deal of respect for what he does, because he’s out there doing the things the MRM claim they’re doing: thinking, writing, and speaking publicly about ways to make mens’ and boys’ lives better in the ways that they’re harmed by the kyriarchy.
The MRM, in contrast, spend more or less all their visible time obsessing over the ways in which feminists hate men (which very few do, and I’ve known a LOT of feminists; almost every one believes that men can be men and masculine without oppressing other people, just as Ally does), and every petty piece of anecdata they can dig up, while also loudly proclaiming that there’s no such thing as misogyny.
There’s no comparison. Ally’s been a brilliant addition to the blog community, just as Nirmukta and Yemmy and Tauriq have been, bringing perspectives we don’t get to see enough in the atheist and/or feminist communities.
Excusez-moi, that should have been “@51” not @54.
Best dessert: pour some scotch over a brownie. Let it soak in. Add a scoop of vanilla ice cream on top.
Hehe, just found this. Thanks for the kindnesses, PZ.
I can confirm the truth of everything above. As indeed I am obliged to do according to that contract you made me write in my own blood.
May I feed you any more grapes, great Sultan?
[Remembers PZ’s ‘cat brain in a yogurt container’ story and faints at the implication for the likelihood that PZ has instituted safe biofluid handling policies among his HR thralls]
PZ-
Do yourself a favor and call Granary Foods Co-op in Ortonville in the morning and find out it they have powdered slippery elm available. Take two gelatin capsules full of the stuff. Repeat in 20 minutes if stomach upset persists. Best stomach remedy in the world.
Well, PZ, considering you – at least according to some of the more paranoid (and stupid) amongst the ‘pitters – still have the power to control John Loftus and his blog network, since you’re apparently responsible for his unceremonious dumping of Justin Vacula and Loftus’s vocally distancing himself from MRAs.
All hail PZ!
Well, you – and the evil feminzai/femistasi axis of evil* – did force John Loftus to dump #bravehero Justin Vacula and speak out against MRAs, causing an absolute meltdown of spittle-flecked rants and RAGE TEARS amongst the ‘pitters.
Don’t try to deny it!
*Yeah, I know I wrote evil twice. That’s just how evil they are!
Citation needed.
And, in news that may or may not be related to Elam’s continuing meltdown, Justin Vacula got fired from skepticink shortly after hosting a commercial for AVfM on his podcast, and John Loftus proceeded to denounce the entirety of the MRA.
Countdown to accusations that Loftus and Ed Clint are stealth FTB zombies in 3, 2, 1…
Wine and chocolate are a fine combination. A fine combination. Just so long as the wine is red and dry and the chocolate is dark as the dark side of the moon.
There’s no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact, it’s all dark.
Raspberries and blackberries are sometimes pink. Of course, that’s when they’re far too unripe so searching them out and eating them would be irrational. But you know women…
Psst.
@ Rey Fox:
Ran around that site for a while without finding any discernible reference to fruit, berry or otherwise. I sort of hate you for linking that, because I’m mildly horrified right now.
Seriously, this is their Nutrition page, reproduced in entirety:
Flavors! Protein! Calcium!
Also, the National Yogurt Association has a lot to answer for.
You can find their nutritional information for every product here.
More flavors! There’s an occasional concentrate — only in some products, mind you! — but … whoa. The amount of flavors that are based on … not the fruit, e.g.:
This post really has no point other than expressing my horror that “berry” is allowed to be in this company’s name. Plus, I can’t believe I went that far into their site.
Damn you Rey Fox!
On topic, I highly recommend PZ avoid this for his gastrointestinal ills.
What’sall this rubbish about berries? I thought all our behaviours were developed when we went for a long swim!
Ducks for cover
Oh, well, there’s plenty of pink edible things in the sea. Geography cones, for instance. (Those live near Africa and are harmless, right? [/SoggyApeTwit])
Ally does seem to be confusing the MRA types quite a lot. Just look at his comments for proof; there’s loads of “But why are you here? You’re not toeing the party line at all! I can’t work out why you’re at FtB… This is supposed to be an echo chamber, god dammit! Vacula told me so! ECHO!”.
I think their issue is that they see women and men as opposing sides in some great war. Ally manages to do all the things that MRAs say they do (say being the operative word there, Ally seems to actually get off his arse and do it), but does it all while also supporting women’s rights. The concept of someone who can actually help men without shitting all over women seems to confuse the fuck out of MRAs.
Personally I’m really enjoying Ally’s blog. Especially his recent letter to Paul Elam, that really was amusing :) I wonder if that’s the real reason Elam is mad?
The gut complaints are much better today! Unfortunately, I’m not going to get much done on the blog, either, because now we have to zip off to Bloomington and unpack and set up our party room, and I’m on three panels today: “Evolutionary Psychology” at 5pm, “Worldbusters” at 10pm, and “Prometheus Debunked” at 11:30pm. The first will be fun, the second could be fun if the audience is cooperative, and the last…well, I tried to watch “Prometheus” again last night in preparation, and it turns out that being battered with the stupid in a slow-moving story that goes nowhere is a great recipe for sleep.
As for all those people expecting me to condemn Fogg for fighting for men’s rights for real…they don’t understand the party line here at all. FtB was not founded and is not maintained as a fortress of feminist fury: our goal from the very beginning was to promote a range of voices beyond the standard old white guy tropes. They don’t understand how much of an atheist I actually am — you can’t eradicate religious folly and expand the Enlightenment by only appealing to one demographic.
Thumper, take a look at Richard Carrier’s latest post. :)
John
Thanks for pointing that out; it’s very good :) I really don’t read Richard Carrier enough.
I’m now going to start distinguishing between MRAs and MIAs. I think too often the lot get thrown together and labelled as “the enemy”, and therefore such a distinction would be useful.
MRAs: Misogynists who atempt to lend legitimacy to their hate throught the subversion of genuine men’s issues. Enemies.
MIAs: People actually attempting to tackle those men’s issues without shitting all over women. Allies.
That’s always been what bothered me most about MRAs; that they hide behind genuine issues. Men do have a higher suicide rate than women. They are disproportionately the victims of violent crime. Male rape and abuse victims often are trivialised. There are more men in prison. But how is any of that, in any way, the fault of women or feminists? I think every single one of those problems can be laid at the feet of gender essentialism; rigid, culturally defined gender roles and gender stereotypes. Certainly getting rid of such gender roles would go a long way towards alleviating the problems, in my opinion, even if it didn’t fix them entirely. Their anger is misdirected, and vicious.
Well, not what bothered me most, what bothered me most is obviously the misogyny, but I find it cowardly and disingenuous.
QFT!
Wowbagger @ 58:
That is my absolute favorite theory being floated over there! PZ/Stephanie/Ophelia/Rebecca Watson!!!! are so powerful that even after Loftus flounced from FTB and set up his own, competing blog network, they forced him to kick Vacula off of SIN. LOVE IT.
Ah, but that’s only if you build your Staff of Ra six kadams high because you only have access to a copy of the front of the headpiece. If you have the actual headpiece, which instructs you to take one kadam back to honour the Hebrew god, you’ll correctly build the Staff five kadams high and reveal that PSOR are actually marginalized!
[Very OT]
*Whooshing noise as cultural reference (video game?) zooms by overhead*
While “kadam” looks Hebrew, it would mean something like “prior; pre-; primordial”, not a unit of length.
As a nerd, I found myself thinking that “kadam” might be a kilo-adam; a thousand times (the first) Adam’s height. Because that might well be a thing in a game featuring a Staff of Ra.
You’re digging in the wrong place!
*facepalm*
It’s been a long times since I’ve seen that movie.
Well it was good while it lasted.
Don’t *facepalm*, Owlmirror. I don’t know that I’d have recognised the reference, had I not written it.
After having been, um, discouraged from piling on Vacula last weekend, I have to admit that I was taken somewhat by surprise by Loftus’ move, didn’t think he had it in him. The responses by the slymers are a piece of beauty. Comedy gold.
I just saw a retweet of a Mykeru tweet. It seems he can no longer comment there..
My black and empty heart breaks and bleeds for him
What? Where? Why?
He’ll always have his icepick to keep himself company.
Thread won.
Awww. “FtB: founded as a fortress of feminist fury” would be such a great alliteration. :-}
Now I want the Playmobile Fortress of Feminist Fury.
I must be a bit too tired, I thought this said “fortress of feminists furries”
Hope you feel better soon, PZ. I’m looking forward to seeing you at ConVergence this week.
Oh… then prepare to get more Paul Elam hatred. I found his article claiming that women in Afghanistan have it “good” and better than the men.
That entire article is a who’s who of misogyny. Judgy Bitch to Elam to Esmay. Every single one of them is involved supporting that in a “positive way”.
A Voice For Men is to men as Focus On The Family is to family.
A Voice For Men = A Voice Against Women
Focus On The Family = Focus On The Fundagelicals
changerofbits:
I always thought that FOTF stood for Focus on the Fascists.