Hey, I thought Europe was more secular…so why is this poll going the wrong way? Oh, because it’s in Catholic Austria.
In German:
Sollen Kruzifixe aus den Klassenzimmern verbannt werden?
17,68% – Ja, denn Religion soll Privatsache bleiben.
77,04% – Nein, denn das Christentum hat in Österreich jahrhundertelange Tradition.
5,28% – Egal, es liegt sowieso an den Eltern, ihren Kindern Religion nahezubringen.
Auf Englisch:
Should crucifixes should be banned from classrooms?
17.68% – Yes, because religion should remain a private matter.
77.04% – No, because Christianity has centuries-long tradition in Austria.
5.28% – Doesn’t matter, it is up to the parents to bring their children up in a religion.
Can a bunch of Americans reverse this trend? That would be weird.
You’ve got to love the headline (or at least Google’s translation): “Complaint came from religious loose nut.”
You don’t want your non-American readers to vote then? :)
Google translate at its finest. The headline actually says the complaint comes from a “religionless mother”.
Count now stands at:
22.23 private matter
72.76 should be allowed
5.01 doesn’t matter
I’m an atheist in catholic Poland, pretty close to Austria (geographically and mentally) , and I want crucifixes kept in schools and parliaments. Not because it’s an old tradition, but I read about Dan Ariely’s experiment with the Ten commandments and the MIT honor code. If this voodoo makes people behave better, let’s keep it.
Ahem! That would be internet as in international! OK, well let’s see if we can.
Just to clarify, when they say banning crucifixes, do they mean little necklaces that people wear? If so, I’m fine with people wearing them in school, since it is a non-invasive expression, which should be protected.
Or are there big crucifixes on classroom walls? Which is obviously unacceptable.
Why aren’t you linking to it so we can look at the relevance. Funny how some evidence doesn’t what some godbots think…
@Nerd of Readhead etc.
I didn’t link because a) it’s the first time I’ve ever commented here and the preview showed the link trashed and b) google.
Ariely is on TED http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_on_our_buggy_moral_code.html but you don’t have to watch it, reading the transcript is much faster
So just what percentage of viewers on this site are USAians? 60% – 70%?
Perhaps an unscientific poll is what we need to find out. Wait…
Unfortunately the European Court of Human Rights ruled in an Italian case that crosses don’t indoctrinate anyone. :rolleyes:
Oh and the German Constitutional Court ruled in a similar case in Bavaria (the southern part of which is culturally very similar to Austria) back in the 90s. It said that having crosses in schools violates students’ religious freedom and also the requirement for the government to stay neutral and not show preferences. In practice nothing much as changed though because the crosses are only removed when someone complains. No idea how they get away with ignoring the ruling like that.
Jawohl Herr Doktor Professor Myers! Befehl ist Befehl.
@Marek
That TAM speaker doesn’t mention the number of subjects that took part in his study nor what their backgrounds were. I think the presence of a big ol’ crucifix could inspire negative behavior under different circumstances, though. Just imagine being the only student in the class with Turkish grandparents; because of the crucifix, your classmates might feel legitimated in bullying you about your (presumed) religion and race.
Anyway, if signing the “MIT honor code” had the same effect in the study as thinking about the Ten Commandments, why can’t the schools put up secular academic honor codes in place of crucifixes?
Sure. The will of the Christian majority has been imposed on the non-Christian minority many times before in Europe with no problems at all. Just ask the Polish Jews. Oh wait, you can’t. They’re dead.
Hmmm, “Austria” looks pretty much the same as “Australia” – so yeah, I’ll go vote on that!
Or even worse, do they mean actual crosses with people nailed to them?
Because while I understand that classroom behavior has to be controlled, there are just some punishments I think are too harsh.
yes, they are. that’s what they’re talking about. Same as in Bavaria.
painting eyes on walls has a similar effect, so why pick the religious version instead of the secular one? That makes no sense, and promotes establishment of religion.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/05/10/how-big-brother-keeps-us-honest
Can a bunch of Americans reverse this trend?
That’s a bit US-centric dontcha think? We internationalists have helped bump the result to 28%.
Count another international vote!
Can anyone clarify? I though it was a ‘cross’ if unadorned and a ‘crucifix’ if it has, to quote a young lady in a jewellery shop years ago, “a little man on it”.
What are the possibilities of making people behave better without “voodoo”? What are the risks of this having negative side-effects? What are the various options for different kinds of “voodoo”?
@gardengnome
Yup. Cross may refer to both maybe, but a crucifix always has a Jesus figure on it. Which is very common for Catholic iconography. Protestants tend to prefer simpler symbols.
yup. Austria being Catholic, they are talking about crucifixes; the crosses in question do have a jesus attached to them.
I voted for the ban. The bible says to make no graven images so they’ll either have to actually crucify someone or commit a mortal sin.
Depends. They’re certainly not standardized but in some instances they can be quite big. Here is a google image search on crucifixes in German*) and Austrian schools.
*) AFAIK most German states don’t have crosses/crucifixes in schools or courtrooms.
Heheh, does it work? ;p
The linked article says that legally, crosses/crucifixes on classroom walls are allowed in classes with a majority of Christian pupils. In the reported case it turned out that less than 50% of class were registered Xians. Austria and Germany keep church tax registers, so the decision is easy. Apparently crosses are hung by default, until some parent does the math and complains, then the corpus delicti is removed.
As for the poll – Wien HEUTE is a free daily advertiser distributed merely in public transport vehicles. Its journalistic standards are sub-tabloid. Presently 5301 participants…
Austria has a 64.8% Catholic majority, followed by Nones (25%), Muslims (6.2%) an Lutherans (3.8%). Those values vary widely between rural and urban areas, with stronger concentrations of Nones in urban areas like Vienna, where often Xian pupils are a minority.
@28
Eyes on walls – see Kathmandu
Jafafa Hots asked,
The article is about crucifixes on walls. One reader jumped to the delusion that if such are banned, so will be veils and Stars of David worn by students.
And belt buckles reading, “Gott mit uns.”
“Ha, I thought Europe was more secular”
Austria is probably the most conservative country I’ve ever visited (outside of the Middle East). I’m certainly not surprised by the polling results.
actually I didn’t ask that.
# 27
According to the German supreme court it is legal to have crucifixes displayed in German classrooms but you have to remove them when at least one pupil complains about them.
(“You are allowed to show them but you can’t force me to look at them”)
Jahwol Herr Professor!!!
Ja: 35.47%
Nein: 60.19%
miscreant “h” needs discipline.
Sorry, Jafafa. My error.
um, yes. that’s why i mentioned it
Count
36.05 no
59.64 yes
4.31 doesn’t matter
Total 5808
When I clicked on it to get the latest numbers, it seemed to take my vote again.
These are not experienced poll takers, are they?
Sorry, I guess I just failed at humor. It was just a tongue-in-cheek remark because of your avatar.
And we all know that most people don’t want to rock the boat so the chances that “Lattengustl” has to be removed are pretty much nil.
Count
37.38 no
58.42 yes
4.20 meh
Total 5993
What steve84 said @ 11+12.
Also, if Jesus had been killed on the electric chair, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
@ Lyn M
Good point. I went and voted again too. (It should not be too hard to write a little routine… ;)
Ja: 37.83%
Nien: 58.01%
For those of you on Firefox: Shift+Ctrl+P and paste address into the address bar of the window that opens. (Hides cookies to allow multiple votes.)
Interesting Theo. I did nothing but click the link again, and there I was with the vote page enabled. So I clicked. I mean … clearly they wanted me to.
And it’s now:
38.51 No
57.38 Yes
4.11 Meh
Total votes 6152
By the way, in that total 6152, there are probably less than 2,000 that are mine.
I’ve been called many things in my life, and I can usually let insults slide. On this occasion, however, I’m livid. If you call me “American” one more time, poopyhead, I’m rage quitting.
I am having a lot of trouble getting through. Probably the attempt to contact facebook is snagging on the Great FireWall of China.
Anyhow: Ja 39.02%, Nein 56.89% We could try and plot where the two graphs are going to intersect now, given the timestamps and the scores. When does the computer beat out YHWH?
At this rate we should overtake Der Herr, allmächtiger Gott ™ in about six hours time…
I have never been to Austria or Poland, but I think the Bishop of Rome* is more powerful in the latter country.
gnise
*To use the phrase for El Presidente used by those who do not recognise him as E l S upremo of christianity.
The article quotes a letter to the editor that argues against a ban, stating
i.e. if one started banning crosses on the wall, then one must also ban religious symbols / clothes worn by the students. The typical canard. Not understanding that it’s a BIG difference whether the school authorities or the children acknowledge a religion.
Another thing @29 (steffp): “crosses/crucifixes on classroom walls are allowed in classes with a majority of Christian pupils” – if I read the passage in the article correctly, the regulations don’t only allow crosses, they mandate them: “in allen Klassen Kreuze aufzuhängen sind” means “crosses are to be put up in every room.”
my elbow hit the keyboard, courtesy of Lord Tpyos, master od bad speling.
Well, this poll is going the right way,
40.11 No
55.88 Yes
4.01 Meh
Total: 6357
@49
In your sentence the german phrase should be in the accusative case, so: “den Herrn”.
*Muttley-esque snigger* No to crucifixes now at 40.55% :)
Going by the rev. Vladimir Ilyitch Ulyanov (pbuh), Denmark is the most conservative country. – “When all other countries have been swept by the Communist Revolution, Denmark will still be conservative.”
–o–
Pretty sure “Doktor”, as a personal title, is attached directly to the name – i.e. it takes precedence over the professional title.
@55 (Sili)
Yes, “Professor Doktor Myers” would be the correct form.
JohnnieCanuck:
Impossible to say. As we’ve learnt over the past few years, even Americans can’t agree on who is truly American.
Now at:
43,89% – Ja, denn Religion soll Privatsache bleiben. (3023/6887)
52,32% – Nein, denn das Christentum hat in Österreich jahrhundertelange Tradition. (3603/6887)
3,79% – Egal, es liegt sowieso an den Eltern, ihren Kindern Religion nahezubringen. (261/6887)
Often, yes. The implications are, however, slightly different: Bavaria has Catholicism as part of its tribal identity, distinguishing itself from the Protestant Franks and the Protestant northerners in general. Austria isn’t so much specifically Catholic as simply conservative. Pay attention to how the “no” answer reads: it follows the Three Austrian Arguments – “that’s always been that way”, “that’s never been that way”, “but then anybody could come and… [dogs and cats living together, general madness & chaos]”.
See, Vienna tried to have a revolution in 1848. It was brutally and thoroughly trounced. The effect on the mentality of the whole country has been enormous.
I’m sure it doesn’t.
Every classroom has a crucifix, the federal coat of arms, and a photo of the
emperorpresident hanging on the front wall. People are so used to it, they don’t even notice they’re there. Many of the classrooms I was in happened to have stuff standing around in front of those symbols, blocking the view, just because nobody cares!I’m sure the voodoo only works if people actually believe in it. Not many people go to church every Sunday (way fewer than in Poland!), and the trend has been steeply falling for decades.
Yeah, preview does that.
Tsss. :-) That’s a Prussian sentiment, not an Austrian one! The Austrian equivalent is smilingly toadying up to him, or (better yet) doing what he orders before he orders it.
Also, Professor comes first.
Grandparents? There are very few people in Austria whose grandparents were born in Turkey but whose parents weren’t. And kids whose parents were born there, or who were born there themselves, are (in the big cities) simply too numerous to bully for being “foreigners”. (Religion isn’t a big deal, because most Turks are quite moderate Muslims; “race” doesn’t figure, because the concept of “white” is much broader than in the USA.)
Worse: it belongs to the infamous tabloid Kronen
AbstandZeitung, which is read daily by half of the country.Or, y’know, somebody voted at the same time. The readership of Pharyngula is so huge that there’s often somebody voting every second.
:-D Didn’t know that one. Are they already so subversive in Bavaria?
Correct. Every classroom has to have a cross, a “federal eagle” and a photo of the president.
In that case (sorry) also “den allmächtigen Gott”.
LOL!
Hey, Bavaria of all places had a communist takeover in 1918 :-þ
No, “Professor” is or used to be an academic title, too, received upon successfully defending a thesis called Habilitation that was recently mostly abolished in Germany but still exists in France.
However, Doktor is traditionally considered part of the name and therefore goes closer even than Magister. I don’t know if that’s actually true, legally speaking (it’s not in Germany, even though most people believe it is); this belief comes from times when doctors were automatically ennobled (and titles of nobility had to be used at every occasion).
Similarly, Poland has Catholicism as part of its national identity, distinguishing itself from the Protestant northern Germans and the Orthodox Russians/Byelorussians/Ukrainians. (And more recently the godless communists.) The Lithuanians are just as Catholic, but that’s OK, the shared history is such that the Polish national epic begins with an ode to “Lithuania, my fatherland!”.
That must be part of the reason why Spain and even Italy are so much more godless now than 30 years ago. Croatia will be interesting to watch.
44.41% – Ja, denn Religion soll Privatsache bleiben
51.83% – Nein, denn das Christentum hat in Österreich jahrhundertelange
3.76% – Egal, es liegt sowieso an den Eltern, ihren Kindern Religion
6955 Total votes.
@ David Marjanović
It is taking my votes over and over. I tested it. Seems to be a loose system.
I wonder if my prediction will come true? We have less than an hour to haul in the difference.
@ David Marjanović
I have given up my attempts to understand German grammar rules.
Analysis of current pharyngulation: Linky.
That was among the more socially useful things I’ve done today. It was fun!
What’s “pharyngulate” in German?
Pharyngulieren?
Hot diggity…Mine was vote #3716 for, and there are currently 3715 against
@ unklesam
This would mean we sailed into the lead at about 3:00 pm. My prediction was incredibly accurate!
Methinks I’ve just got it to 50% with #4047/8094 (46.68Nein).
[What? Me competitive? Never…]
50,32% – Ja, denn Religion soll Privatsache bleiben.
46,39% – Nein, denn das Christentum hat in Österreich jahrhundertelange
3,29% – Egal, es liegt sowieso an den Eltern, ihren Kindern Religion
Total 8185
Nice movement there.
What else? :-)
Wir haben die Umfrage pharynguliert!