This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
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Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
491
John Morales
We have addressed it and even with Paul W., it came down to being a worthless distinction that reads just like slut shaming. It’s like saying being born is the cause of rape.
Hey, John even said so:
so, as I said, I have no idea what your (John’s) point is right now.
Blah, I don’t like making the 501. comment.
Beatrice,
Good, because I intended to express my agreement with that proposition.
And yes, it does look like that… but that’s not the same as claiming that is in fact the case.
—
JAL,
Again: that is predicated on knowledge you do not possess; I don’t deny that it is indeed plausible.
—
LykeX:
Appearances can be deceiving, not that I think I’m either being dishonest nor sabotaging the conversation.
(My first comment on Pharyngula was way back in November 2005*)
—
* I was critical of PZ.
theophontes,
It’s the form rather not the subject that correlates.
—
Anyway, I’m quite tired and I have to leave for work early tomorrow.
(‘Night, everyone)
Um, what?
This guy fits the explanation. Yes, it’s the case that he is effectively being pro-rape. That big sign saying “You deserve rape” kinda clued me in.
Anyway, I will let others provide more amusement for you. I really hated Groundhog day. Crappy movie.
@ John Morales
Like : “Crossing the road”, “being born” (as per #500), … ?
I find the whole intergenerational terrorism of planting landmines to be a bit apart from any of these. Perhaps another time, so in the interim:
Slaap lekker.
I don’t think anyone that walks on minefields deserves to be blown up. There are many mines buried in the other fields, and in fact, the people walking in the mine fields don’t really get blown up any more than the ones that avoid the minefields, so it isn’t about walking in the minefields really.
John Morales@493,
I know you’re not inherently stupid, so I conclude that you are being dishonest.
@ Nick Gotts
“Firstly, let us assume a perfectly spherical chicken…”
*looks at comments*
Damn, I think I woke up some time in 2005 or so, before we had all those discussions and those threads were we actually showed that certain arguments means that somebody is pro-rape, just like all the “pro life fuckers” are pro women dying regardless of whether they consciously argue such points. I guess a sign “you deserve to die in childbirth” might be an indicator of somebody being in favour of women dying in childbirth.
Or is this the magic moment when we’re supposed to believe that people actually hold very different positions in their heart of hearts despite the shit they say and do?
jesus fuck these discussions are stupid. So many people here are incapable of even trying to see the world from a different perspective from the identity-political narrative you’ve developed in your own head. You don’t care what people actually think or say as long as you can come back with the usual boilerplate and thereby continue feeling superior. Critical thinking is for other issues. but anyway:
My original comment was more about the dishonest presentation of the commenter who brought the whole thing up,refusing to actually quote the sign in question but instead (following the narrative) substituting a personal value judgement, referring to it as “pro-rape”, even while directly quoting the sign’s obverse. Even if you agree with the value judgement, that’s spin pure and simple.
But here is why I think the sign (“You Deserve Rape”) cannot be fairly characterized as “pro-rape”. The guy’s a campus preacher. (Every US college campus of largish size has at least one; most of them travel a regular circuit, doing whatever to draw a crowd and preach the gosp’l o’ jayzuss.) Most of the ones I’ve seen are justly notorious for dedicated slut-shaming, always yelling about harlots and birth control and whores and abortions (it draws a crowd). This guy’s evidently no exception.
Try now to imagine what drives this guy to make an utter ass of himself every day, heckled and mocked (often cruelly, imo) by the many students that find him either annoying or comical. Unless it’s all elaborate performance art, he’s sincere: he is yelling at these students in an effort to save their souls from eternal damnation. His perspective.
In fact, do you know what his usual sign (the rape one was new, which is why we heard about it in the first place) sez?
“You Deserve Hell”.
(Tip: this kind of information is readily available here on teh internetz, in case anyone would ever like to learn something of the subject at hand before bloviating your ignorant opinion worldwide.)
By direct analogy, would you claim that he is ‘pro-Hell’? To him, Hell is bad, the worst possible thing, in fact, the exact fate from which he is bravely trying to save people. Right?
So one day the guy decides to emphasize the tactic of slut-shaming-to-save-souls. As a variation on his usual theme, he goes with “You Deserve Rape”. Because (to him) it’s a bad thing, like Hell, from which he’s trying to save people. But then he realizes that people might take that phrase as pro-rape, so he adds the other side as a disclaimer.
I conclude that the guy is not, in fact, ‘pro-rape’.
But “Intent is not fucking magic!!!1!” you will chant yet again. The sign is pro-rape in effect if not in intent. Because victim-blaming is ipso facto pro-rape.
yeah, well, that’s a can of worms I have no interest in re-opening. Suffice it to say that I stand by everything else I’ve ever posted on the topic.
But don’t let me interrupt your personal narrative.
Says the person who brings us a narrative of the entire thought process that led the preacher to making those posters, with all the details (such as the preacher expecting people to call him pro-rape [win for the feminazis! *fist bump*]) told as facts, as if you were his fucking conscience.
@ Chas
Hey!!!
(Chas finally addresses me.)
OK, I confess, I am anti-rape. I am also anti-murder. Hell, I’m even anti-landmines. Shit I can’t help myself. Its like neo-tribalism, man. I can’t stop myself. Much as I’d like to consider the opposing positions (to my self-absorbed attitudes in regard to these) I just keep failing to make sense of them. Perhaps you could flesh them out for me in simpler terms?
Of all the horrible things he could bring up, he brought up this: “You Deserve Rape”. He thinks there are certain circumstances in which people deserve to be raped. In those he is fine with it. He announces such to the world. Others like William Lane Craig delight in being pro-genocide. Of course in “certain circumstances”.
Not for himself I would think. But then perhaps he is like Thomas Aquinas: “the blessed in heaven will often walk to the battlements and look down and delight in the justice of God being properly carried out in hell” This certainly seems to fit Bro’ Dean to a tee.
Chas, the guy’s thinking is twisted. You can argue one way or the other as to what his motivations are. Where does that leave us though?
Just ask Bro’ Dean.
More quotes from the mind of Bro’ Dean :
(If Dean doesn’t believe this, as he claims, he is a liar. In that case, what is there for us to add?)
Right, but he also thinks that you really do deserve to go there. He believes that, at your current status, you going to hell is the right, proper and just thing. He thinks that hell is a perfect example of god’s justice because you really do deserve to go the this place; the most horrible place in all existence.
True, he wants you to change so that this is no longer the case, but if you don’t change, he actively wants you to go there. If he had a magical wand that would ensure that you could go to heaven, despite what god wanted, he wouldn’t use it. If he could eliminate hell entirely, he wouldn’t do it (Since we’re being hyper-literal and nit-picky to the point of complete idiocy, I should point out that I don’t actually know if he personally believes these things, but it’s a common enough position that I think it’s fair to assume it, at least for the purpose of this particular point).
It’s not that he doesn’t want you to go to hell. Rather, he wants you to stop being the kind of person who deserves to go to hell. That’s a very different thing.
Compare it to the death penalty. I’m sure most people who are for the death penalty genuinely wish there were fewer murders; they wish that people didn’t do the things that got them convicted and sentenced to death. Does that mean that they’re actually against the death penalty, despite also supporting it?
He might not want good people (i.e. those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and savior) to go to hell and he might want you to become one of those good people, so you can avoid hell, but that’s not remotely the same as being against hell itself.
Hey, Chas, given that you’re making a project of outing yourself as the biggest asshole on Pharyngula (which is saying something), you’ll not be complaining about there being too many assholes nor too much assholery around here in the future, correct?
@ LykeX
While we are all spinning analogies:
Those are really the only two possibilities you can conceive of? What a pitifully limited imagination. How about:
3) He’s an attention-junkie. Any kind of attention will do, and he’s found that this kind of offensiveness gets him plenty.
4) He thinks this is necessary to save himself from Hell.
5) He’s been paid to do it.
6) He hates women and wants to insult and frighten them, but also wants to conceal this motivation (from himself or others), hence the second message.
That’s just off the top of my head.
Oh, I see. You’re a telepath. Why didn’t you say so?
I see a guy on a campus holding a sign that says, “You deserve rape.”
I should give this guy any kind of the benefit of the doubt because…….why?
Because Chas says so and he’s much smarter than us and able to think out of the box so that’s why
I have a cousin that is way into “woo”, now, ever since she claimed her post-partem depression was cured by aromatherapy. She just posted a picture on Facebook:
FDA Says Safe: (with a little thumbs up next to it)
aspartame
MSG
artificial colors
artificial flavors
propylene glycol
fluoride
SSRI antidepressants
anti-psychotic drugs for soldiers
psychotropic drugs for kids
mercury in vaccines
chemotherapy for babies
autolyzed proteins
chemical preservatives
sodium nitrite
cow pus in milk
pesticides
herbicides
fungicides
radiation
GMOs
chlorine
arsenic
aluminum
mercury in fish
bisphenol-A (BPA)
FDA Says Dangerous: (with a little thumbs down next to it)
Fresh Milk
….
(facepalm, headdesk)
I am capable of seeing Dean’s POV. Shit, I can also see the POV of rapists, racists and Nazis. But I also have my reasons for rejecting their justifications.
I do not give a fuck what justification Dean has to tell women that they deserved to be raped. The simple fact that he thinks some women should be shows that he thinks there is a purpose for rape.
That makes him pro-rape.
Now, please, Chas, kindly point out my intellectual and moral failings here.
I can use the bitter laughter.
And Romani.
I think Slavs, he “only” wanted to enslave.
chas
The statement “You deserve rape” intrinsically includes a desire that some people be raped. This is an unequivocally pro-rape statement on its face, and there is no way to interpret those English words in that order as anything other than advocacy of rape in some circumstances. It is entirely irrelevant whether he is consistent in his other statements; that statement advocates rape, and there is no reason to suppose that he is not sincere when he makes it, nor any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, given how much time you spend defending rape apologists around here, I don’t really expect this to make any more of a dent than it has before, but what the hell. Also, you’re a colossal asshole, and I really wish you’d just fuck off. You bring less to the discussion than SteveoR.
*shrug*
look, I won’t apologize for thinking for myself; I can’t help it. As for what I “bring to the discussion,” I guess it depends on which discussion you mean. “The most collossal asshole on Pharyngula”?
[response]
What do you want me to say? I honestly don’t think this guy or his sign are “pro-rape”. That just seems stupid to me. I already tried to explain why. I haven’t changed my mind.
I was going to Marjonović and respond individually to individuals, but nah fuck it.
Why is it so important to everyone that we all agree that this guy and his sign are (presumably literally) “Pro-Rape”? Why is it so important to excoriate me for coming to a different conclusion?
I’ll try to explain my point once more, then shut up (the crowd rejoices).
‘You deserve X’ and ‘You should be Xed’ and ‘I desire that some people be Xed’ and whatever other versions y’all’ve spun are not equivalent statements. That’s precisely the illogical leap that I am as-usually-pedantically-and-OK-if-you-insist-assholishly tallking about.
The mosr relevant example for this particular guy-and-sign–Hell–has already been offered, and of course subsequently mangled. No, this guy does not think Hell is a good thing, in any way. He does not desire that some people go to Hell. He does not think that anybody should go to Hell. And the ‘rape’ sign was clearly intended as a parallel construction. (No, Nick, one does not have to be a telepath to se that.) But you’re not buying that? *shrug*
How about this: I am ethically opposed to the death penalty in any circumstance, thinking it barbaric and pointless. Here’s somebody who has commited some heinous crime against people I love(d). I will say that the perp deserves death, even deserves to be killed, but nevertheless I do not think (s)he should be killed; nor do my feelings indicate a desire that some people be actually killed.
It’s a subtle point.
Think about it, or not, I don’t give a fuck.
@ Chas
Aaah, the old “rehabilitation” gambit. I doubt it. It is about punishment, not about inducing behavioural change. The tag line “You deserve …” kinda gives the game away. Even the obverse of the sign is merely a variation on this.
Hell also gives away the motivation. Punishment. There is no recompense for one’s actions, only punishment. Perhaps kowtowing to Jeebus, or His spokesman, may get you off the hook. But that was not what the signage said. – You deserve … murder, rape, eternal damnation … punishment. –
YHWH is a bloodthirsty god who lives to inflict punishment. Sonnyboy has worked out a weasel way to use this to his advantage. They are very pro any and all of these nasty “punishments” – their very existence depends upon it.
Chas, in your favour I note that the mentor of Bro’ Dean has come out on your side of the argument:
Link here. (“Spiritual mentor of ‘Brother Dean’ proud of ‘You deserve rape’ sign.”)
But from the get-go this is obvious bullshit. He merely articulates your arguments better than you have.
After trying to explain to my cousin the benefits of pasteurization versus the risk of tuberculosis, brucellosis, diptheria, scarlet fever, Q fever, infection from salmonella, listeria, yersinia, campylobacter, staphylococcus aureus and E. coli, AND citing the CDC’s statistics on improperly-handled raw milk being the cause of three times as many hospitalizations than any other type of food-borne illness, I finally gave up after all of her woo-ish friends jumped in and practically accused me of wanting to poison people.
That stupid list is comparing apples to manatees. It’s hugely dishonest and it pisses me off – everything I’ve read about raw milk states that you shouldn’t give it to children, the elderly or people with compromised immune systems – and one of my cousin’s friend says that she gives several pints of it to her lactose-intolerant son every day.
I give up. Enjoy your gallon of bacteria.
O.O
Poor boy
Chas:
How about you JUST FUCKING STOP TALKING, you smug shithead?
@Beatrice
I know – supposedly he can handle it just fine while pasteurized milk sends him to the hospital. I can’t explain it and I sure don’t want the kid to suffer – but I can’t help but worry about the one time that the raw milk is left at room temperature for too long, or is contaminated during the very minimal processing, or all manner of things. This is a “woo” with potentially deadly consequences.
But you have to remember – *I* was the one who was in favor of poisoning people. :P
That’s an extraordinary claim. It’s a rare Christian who will admit that god is doing something that isn’t good.
I might just buy that he’s sad that such extreme measures are necessary, but he will think that it is necessary. In fact, he would think that hell is the perfectly good response to the existence of sin. There couldn’t possibly be a better way to handle the problem, because if there was, that’s an admission that god is doing things in a less than perfect way.
@ Chas
As a scientist you understand the need to seek out truth (with a small “t”). We call out this person for what he is, in spite of his wheedling. Both his hatred and his lies contribute to real harm to real people in the real world. You seem to think this is merely and abstract exercise.
Because your conclusion is wrong, Chas. Not merely “different”.
Crap! YHWH created Hell with a purpose. To eternally punish people for their transgressions (such as worshipping other than He, or wearing your cargo pants above the knee). It is the big stick that is used to threaten and browbeat people into obsequious obeisance.
No Hell, No GAWD.
The principle is the same with Bro’ Dean. He needs the threats to enforce compliance of others to his narrow world view. He relies on them and cannot do without. Essentially he has nothing positive to offer.
Hell is a terrifying and agonising place, but Bro’ Dean is not going there. To him then, it is a wonderful stick which lends force to the achievement his goals.
That’s just plain bullshit.
First of all, it’s of course making shit up as you go along. He does not think that? How do you know? Nothing we have about him indicates your position.
Secondly, if we deduct from what we actually do know about people who share a belief system with him that’s just blatantly false. They want you to behave propperly, they want you to go to heaven, but they also think that if you don’t behave and believe how you should that then it’s hell for you. Because thinking that nobody, no matter what should go to hell would mean believing that god made a terrible mistake when he created it and is unfairly roasting people there. Now that’s an extraordinary claim about the beliefs of a fire and brimstone christian if I’ve ever seen one.
No, he’s against hell the same way some parents are “against spanking” while bending their kids over telling them how very sorry they are about this and that this hurts them more than the kid when they’re beating the crap out of them. Oh sure, they might be very honestly concerned about their kids growing up propperly. Does not make them not pro-child abuse.
mythbri
Well you hit me if I tell you that I still like raw milk?
But I’m wondering, has the lactose intolerance been diagnosed by a doctor or a woo-peddler? I’ve heard about woo-inclined people having “allergies” against things in form X but not Y before.
Eh? Maybe you deserve to have your tongue cut out. You get it? You are wrong, according to opinion, and logic, and I am merely trying to scare you into acting in a rational manner.
See? No one deserves to have their tongue cut out, but if I promote the idea that sometimes it is appropriate, then it becomes acceptable, to some, and then it becomes acceptable to not just this discussion, but a greater and widespread number of circumstances. Sooner or later it becomes justified to cut someones tongue out for swearing, or cheering for the Lakers, or whatever. It is insidious, and prone to interpretation.
Same with rape. It is a fucking brutal and viscous ‘punishment’ that fucks a person over, dramatically, and likely for life, and robs them of a basic feeling of security. Even the threat of it for some people, according to some nebulous distinction, is then in play, and all people – especially and almost exclusively women – suddenly come under the threat of rape to themselves as being justified, and expected, for some arbitrarily defined behavior.
It is not just a needless threat, it is not just a tasteless and derogatory character judgement, it is a now an accepted attitude that may apply to any and every person for situations that are beyond their knowledge to avoid. Suddenly, not just the original group is threatened under the punishment of cruel and unusually depraving vicious punishment – which is immoral by law, now that it has been introduced into the lexicon, it is subject to looser and more widespread applications, so now it is a general threat to everyone, subject to some miscreant’s interpretation at the time.
So please, I implore you, you deserve to get your tongue cut out and I am saying that out of the deepest love and respect for your right to speak openly everywhere else.
You are promoting an attitude that rape is okay sometimes, and that is a very dangerous and destructive attitude to spread, because people will justify raping someone because they deserve it.
Fucks like the preacher know that they are sick fucks because it is so fucking painfully obvious, just like promoting the idea that sometimes people deserve to have their tongue cut out, like if they don’t agree with everyone. I mean, what do you expect? I don’t want you to accidentally provoke some sick fuck, so please, don’t make someone cut out your tongue! Spreading dangerous ideas can get your tongue cut out, even though that is wrong. But sometimes, people deserve it, because they should know better! Please, chas, be careful!
So, you believe me now that I am just thinking of your best interest? Speaking a certain way, dressing a certain way, doing them in the wrong place…
BTW, I am not pro :
Extremism in Bonn: Student’s Tongue Cut in Possible Islamist Attack
An Indian man in Bonn claims to have been attacked and had his tongue lacerated by Islamists. He told police that a pair of perpetrators demanded that he convert to Islam before the assault. Police believe his story to be credible.
It’s what you get sometimes. You shouldn’t insult religious fanatics, or political ideologues, where ever they just happen to turn up.
‘Satan was in that dude’: Mixed martial artist ripped out his friend’s tongue and still-beating heart while high on drugs because he thought he was the devil
Love ya, man
Why was it so important for you to say that the original statement that the sign is pro-rape was “stupid and ridiculous”?
I was 24 hours behind.
Thank The Powers we got to Page 2.
—
Sven
It just ain’t The Good Old Days™.
Perhaps you should take another time-out.
Chas
I thought I made that clear in my previous post. I don’t. I want you to go away, or failing that, to shut up.
Because your conclusion is both wrong and harmful, as has been explained to you repeatedly and at great length.
@ mikmik
Old hat. YHWH has that covered already.
Jeebus joins in the carnage, in a hoggling frenzy:
…
“Corrective Rape” is essentially what Bro’ Dean is advocating. The only difference is the motivation. Instead of forcing people to act in conformity with gender stereotypes, he is seeking to force people to act in conformity with his narrow minded views on dress codes. Pfffft.
As always in this situation, I highly recommend the Pharyngula-customized Greasemonkey killfile script, downloadable free from the Pharyngula wiki. It allows you to actually shut selected people up proactively, whether smug shithead or inane dipshit. And you don’t even have to yell at them!
One click and you’ll never have to read anything I might ever have to say again! Imagine the relief!
But as for my leaving the blog entirely to just you right-thinking folks? With apologies, it’s unlikely.
Did not say anything about you leaving asshole. You shutting up would be more than sufficient (since you will never apologize for calling me lazy and gullible). In lieu of that perhaps you could stop defending advocates of rape. That would entail you thinking critically and stepping outside your personal narrative.
Why IS it so important to you to give “you deserve rape” a charitable interpretation, Chas? And why is Tony “gullible” for calling that sentiment pro-rape? Who is trying to fool him?
@Giliell
I don’t object to people drinking raw milk as long as they’re aware of the risks and take all of the precautions they can. Indeed – as long as the milk is handled properly, it’s likely that there’s no significant risk.
But there is no “sniff test” for E. coli, salmonella, listeria or any of the other harmful microbes that can be present in milk. They can’t be detected by sight, smell or taste. And there are too many points of potential contamination to make me feel comfortable consuming raw milk personally.
The “infographic” was just maddening, which is why I had such a strong reaction.
YOU DESERVE TORTURE
What? It’s not like I’m pro-torture or anything.
@ SallyStrange
I wonder if we have been “Pharyngula-customized Greasemonkey killfile script“-ed?
I have, on occasion, hush-filed everyone except me.
It’s weird.
And takes a long time to clean up.
@ chigau
I have never used the killfile. My scroll button is effective enough.
Really nice weather in Honkers.
chigau?? What, what? Even me? But everything I write is relevent, insightful, witty and goodwill inducing. I shall have catalogue all of my bon mots so you can catch up.
theophontes
I resisted killfile for a long time but I kinda like it now.
It’s snowing here.
Did someone say something?
AE
My killfile experiment didn’t work out.
I ended up unkilling everyone because I couldn’t remember why some people were in there.
Some of them reminded me later.
[Not you. So a catalogue isn’t necessary. Really. Honestly. ;)]
I’m trying to think of some use of the word “deserve” which does not imply approval of what is deserved on the part of the one making the statement.
Maybe by including oneself — “we all deserve hell, for we are all born in sin, blah blah blah”?
But, no, that still implies that what is deserved is right and proper. The speaker has just managed to avoid the “deserved” fate by being saved.
Dean has decided that he knows the power that runs the universe, and has, in a sense, allied himself with it (even though all he’s done is ally himself to a narrative). He presumably approves of that power’s actions. By explicitly declaring “You deserve Hell”, he is pro-Hell in the same sense that a Nazi is pro-extermination camps, or a Bolshevik is pro-purging.
If he were merely warning about Hell, he would declare “You risk Hell”, or “You are in danger of Hell”.
So too with rape. A sign saying “You risk rape” would be a warning to change one’s ways; “You deserve rape” implies approval of the fate.
A catalogue of AE bon mots would be rather niiice.
Beatrice
Probably.
We
usuallyalways do.Really? Lil ole me, killfiled by the great ChasCPeterson? No, say it ain’t so. Will someone please pass on to him my sincere wish to hear more about how “identity politics” is making us all stupid?
Owlmirror, I think you just hit it out of the park.
I have accidentally hushfiled dianne a couple of times. I don’t know how it happens, but when I want to quote her, or open her comment in another window, my finger just goes to “hush”. Since I like dianne, that is unfortunate. If I don’t notice it immediately, I’m baffled later “Wait what, why the hell is dianne hushfiled?! Who messed with my computer?”.
And it’s just dianne’s comments that happens with.
someone said
OK.
Today is the thirtieth anniversary of one of the greatest rants ever recorded by a baseball manager, then Cubs manager Lee Elia. One does not need to be a fan of baseball nor of the Chicago Cubs to appreciate this work of beauty. Needless to say, it is not safe for work.
@ SallyStrange
You mean {tadda} *tribalism* ‽‽‽
(Actually, that would be an interesting topic of conversation and I would have liked to hear chas‘s position spelled out clearly. There is, I guess , a disadvantage to one’s being killfiled.)
Ah come on! In the end we all like to know what is being said about us. Unless it was some braindead tedious troll, I never saw the point in it really, and I was always way too curious to see what those who were hating me for some thing or another at the time would come up with next.
German soccer had a similar event in 1998, when Italian star coach Giovanni Trappatoni had a total meltdown at a press conference.
That’s not even what I do; I respond to individual claims.
Is he dead yet?
Seriously: is he dead yet? From diarrhea? Or is he not lactose-intolerant at all?
Methinks he deals with lactose just fine.
Heh. Look at that word viscous. Based on its spelling, how would you pronounce it?
Hint: not like vicious. That’s what you were aiming at.
Well, some people make a difference between “lawful” and “good”, and apply “deserved” to the former.* Even if they approve of the law in general/in principle/in the abstract, they still think that mercy should come first.
Some such people are trying to fool themselves: they don’t approve of the law at all, but their religion says they have to, so they claim they approve in the abstract but don’t want it to be applied, which makes it kinda pointless. There are tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of Christians out there who hope or outright believe that Hell is empty, yet still (try to) believe it exists as some kind of way-over-the-top warning.
For all others, however, I’m with comment 551. The level of approval may range from “good” to “necessary evil”, but there’s still “necessary” in there.
And that’s before we get to the impact on other people. If “you deserve rape” doesn’t further rape culture, I don’t know what does.
* This is where Chas comes in and says if you believe they apply it to the latter, you’re committing a logical fallacy, and we know what happens when Chas spots a logical fallacy.
nah, I just had to go to work.
Neither you nor SallyStrange are in my file at the moment (sorry Sally) (hey, you should do like a sarcastic disappointment thing now haha)
Plus anyway even if you were, I peek a lot (which is how I know there is much irony in #557).
I cycle folks in and out, but I’m only
kilhushing those I find boring, insipid, and/or annoying. I like reading comments that disagree with my ideas, seriously, and I don’t really mind invective much (as ought to be obvious by now). If you occasionally bring some sort of interesting (to me)(for whatever reason) content to bear, I won’t hush you.So with that in mind, you know what? The worst possible way to get me (or, I’ll wager, pretty much anybody else) to shut up about something is to keep talking to me about it. Know what I mean? I had to point this out to somebody the other day on another subject. You can’t tell me to shut up, then continue the conversation, then tell me to shut up. Conversation just doesn’t work that way. It’s bullshit to expect it to, for me or for anybody else.
I’m in a decent mood for once and plus I want to watch last night’s Mad Men, so I won’t be rising to any of your bait, people who will remain nameless.
Please feel free to not respond. That would be great, actually.
Tony!, I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. That was unnecessarily mean of me.
Very ironically, comment #319 only just showed up now in my email subscription.
Chas:
Thank you.
I don’t care what mood you’re in. I STILL want to know what the hell you meant when you called Tony “gullible.” As I noted, it implies someone is trying to fool him. Who?
Ketchup is viscous punishment.
I wondered why the comment numbers suddenly changed.
Looks like #319 was in moderation until recently.
Which is ironic, since it was about comments being in moderation.
I check the moderation queue sporadically, sometimes every day, sometimes when I’m busy it’s a couple of days. And then I TROLL BY MESSIN’ UP ALL YOUR COMMENT NUMBERS. Ha ha ha ha.
HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN !!
ALL YOUR COMMENT NUMBERS ARE BELONG TO US.
YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME.
HA HA HA HA . . . .
Oh, I forgot the YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION bit.
Win.
Proof, proof!, numerology is teh trvth!!!1!
(Actually, along with the fact that number and magick have the same number of letters, which is also the sum of the digits of 42, which is known to be Teh Answer, this makes three proofs!)
SallyStrange: I’ve already answered your question, explicitly, twice*. If you’re not going to read what I post anyway, then please killfile me so you’re not tempted to engage me in the exact conversation that several other commenters have asked or demanded me to shut up about.
You probably owe them an apology for this comment.
*Ctrl-F “dishonest presentation”
Really, you already explained who’s trying to fool Tony into thinking that “YOU DESERVE RAPE” is a pro-rape sort of thing to say?
I must have missed it. Maybe somebody who’s less of an asshole can help me out. Linkies?
even while directly quoting the sign’s obverse
SOOOO TRICKSY!
If I’m so obnoxious that YOU killfile ME instead of the other way around, does that mean I win?
And, like I said before, I’d love to
watch you dig your hole deeperhear more of your fascinating opinions about identity politics, Chas!SS: have a nice day!
If this thread’s dead, can we get a new one?
In unrelated news, I provided QTWTAIN #939. :-)
—
… and regarding the current topic, I have been reading Bro Dean’s blog (*shudder*). If you’re trying to discern what he thinks from one of his placards, you’re taking the verb “to think” to places it has never been before.
He’s a Calvinist: no suffering in this life matters compared to the tribulations of the next; God has decided who will be saved (no free will for you!); Bro’s job is to shout as loudly as possible until others can be reached by the Holy Spirit and be saved. It’s a religion designed for narcissistic arseholes. Calling him “pro” or “anti” anything is asking those words to do some heavy lifting in the pile of crates marked ‘stupidity’.
(He’s also taking beatings in the comments, many of them from Christians!)
*Opens crate of brain bleach marked Stella Artois*
@cm
Nice QTWTAIN. And an interesting study. Other studies show people are unwilling to sell their soul, even if they don’t believe they have one, or tempt fate (don’t remember the details).
I know I’d feel slightly uncomfortable with all three, despite not believing in any of it. I’d guess it’s some kind of taboo we learn when young, and don’t easily unlearn, at least emotionally.
@John Morales
so, no actual reason. I suspected as much.
Delft, conveniently, I need not suspect your theory of mind is up to its usual standard.
Also, “no actual reason”, eh?
@ Delft / John Morales
” …I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.”
{theophontes reads the thread backwards and notices more of the above…}
theophontes
What shall we talk about?
As long as it has NOTHING to do with whatever John Morales and Delft are on about.
Weather? Secrets?
@ chigau
Aah sekrit mesarges!
Beautiful weather in Shenzhen.
@John Morales
If you had a reason, you would have written it, whether here or on the original thread. You’re just back to cryptic remarks. Seems to be your thing.
Mmmmh, like clouds drifting over heads.
theophontes
That is another conversation.
Because my crazy auntie was a HUGE fan of Hedy Lamarr, I read Ecstasy and Me as a teenager.
Hedy’s description of having a pin poked in her bum to simulate orgasm made me a fan, too.
@ chigau
We could discuss the relevance of Hedy’s maths algorithms for my Bluetooth mouse, but that might be even less raunchy than some of spats ’round here.
Delft:
I did, and it was exactly the same reason upon which Hillary based her own comment: “Because your comments exhibit that no less than “the patience of a saint”.”
“Because X” is cryptic to you, such that you don’t imagine X is the reason?
I shan’t dispute that to you it obviously seems so.
An arty interlude: Kitteh statue.
A whole consignment of clay and porcelain statues arrived in the office this afternoon, from an artist friend of one of my colleagues. No camera, so the webcam has to suffice. (Art fair in the Thunderdome Gallery tomorrow. )
@ chigau
Hedy Lamarr aka Hedy Kiesler Markey.
It’s Hedley!
Ummm. So, I got a really great deal on gravel. They’ll be bringing it by later this morning. The weekend promises to be unseasonably cool which will be perfect for moving 5 tons of gravel. So there’s that. Also, tomorrow is my last class day, and by Tuesday, I will be singing Alice Cooper’s “School’s Out for Summer” very loudly in my office.
Also, I need new boots.
Antiochus Epiphanes:
That brings back memories of long ago days. :D
theophontes
I find myself completely charmed by a patent with the word “secret” in the title.
@ chigau
Obscurity can work too. Such as using rare words that nobody else understands. Rather than saying something like: “failed identity-political narrative“, we’ll instead use “nodus tollens”.
Knot removed? What a secretion!
In the Real World, the Pope pontificates:
(That’s 38 Euros more than the Magdalene asylums paid their slaves)
Popey Head. Guess His rigor samsa is acting up again, or maybe He’s just faking.
Someone buy that guy Robbins a beer:
‘Islamophobia’ and the Atheist movement
(and I note his article links to PZ, skepchick and, of all people, Laden)
*mumbles incoherently about wordpress link handling and tries again*
‘Islamophobia’ and the Atheist movement
sonder
n. the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own—populated with their own ambitions, friends, routines, worries and inherited craziness—an epic story that continues invisibly around you like an anthill sprawling deep underground, with elaborate passageways to thousands of other lives that you’ll never know existed, in which you might appear only once, as an extra sipping coffee in the background, as a blur of traffic passing on the highway, as a lighted window at dusk.
.
Oy Vey! I think I sonder every day. Living in the epicenter of so many millions of people squished into the southern part of China. Like one giant social fractal.
“sonder” is an Afrikaans word for “without” (as in “Doctors without borders”). The coiner of the term seems to know a bit about South Africa,… so maybe. Related to “asunder” (apart), in English. (Also: “afsonder” = isolate, “uitsonderlik”=exceptional … this person did their homework.)
Mm.
Have you ever read Empire Star, by Samuel R. Delany?
from rorschach’s link in 604:
>_>
White privilege changes the appearance of Tsarnaev brothers
image of The Week cover in question
http://kaching.tumblr.com/post/48468209369/natgeofound-a-grouper-is-examined-by-three
… kittens, but I think it might be the other way round.
EVERYTHING SUCKS
NOT ALWAYS
YES IT DOES
IT SUCKS TO SAY “IT SUCKS”
or rather:
DUZ TOO
NO WAY
DUDEDOOD
Speaking of the Nyan Cat Devil ™ :
Nyan Cat and Keyboard Cat creators sue Warner Bros
@ owlmirror
Not yet.
…
Check out:
owlmirror
(more about this and others later)
This book includes “Empire Star”, among others.
The Great Firewall of China. (Test)
Warners knew better than to eff with Grumpy Cat.
This is a bit old (November), but I came across it while trawling through my link collection and I thought it was worthy of wider circulation.
What is this?
https://proxy.freethought.online/hetpat/2013/05/04/hello-world
tee
hee
I’m worried about YouTube. After watching the perfectly sensible:
Andrei Gavrilov plays Chopin Ballade No 1
… I’m offered:
Liszt La Campanella (Andrei Gawrilow)
… followed by:
The Awesome “CAD WEST” Low Flying Jet Site In Wales “Mach Loop”.
I think they know more about me than they’re letting on. ~:-|
cm, more likely is that you’re easily predictable.
(I know they know fuck-all about me by what they’re letting on)
[Google glass]
I can see those being featured as one of the top ten brainfarts of all time in the tech mags of five years hence .
I was reading old comment threads because of linked posts and it was really starkly obvious how many people used to comment on Pharyngula who don’t any more and it made me sad. :(
@ carlie
It’s a lot like life.
(I don’t know if that comment really helps. Other than, for good or bad, for every commenter that left, there is another about to delurk.)
{proffers hugs}
A bunch of the people carlie’s talking about are irreplacable.
I recommend the whole interview (and the whole new e-mag it’s in, Nautilus, looks very interesting (plus the cephalopian title)), but I found this exchange with Frans de Waal especially fascinating:
cephalopodian
@ chas
We all are!
…
Thanks for the linky.
well, ok, I recommend the first 2/3 of that interview.
I forgot that he’s now in the atheist-bashing business.
It’s good on apes!
*pours out some liquor, chucks carlie on the shoulder*
Thanks, AE. :)
Yeah, there are a lot of commenters I’d like to see around again. Not that I don’t love all the ones we have now, but I miss a lot of people too.
PZ Myers: frontpage this sucker, please!
So I mentioned this new e-mag Nautilus, and then just now found the preview issue which is actually nautilus-themed in an explicitly cephalopodian way.
I have to say that this right here is one of the besr reads I’ve seen on the freakin internets, ever.
I sure don’t, ewww! But I love Chas and SC, does that disqualify me from further duty?
But seriously, ’twas more fun with Erin and truthy and Kseniya and Jeff and Aquaria and Kel around….
I also seem to have missed what happened to Caine, and I assume strangey is currently taking one of his hiatuses(is that a word?)?
Chas – that is a pretty amazing article.
Very cool.
HEY CHAS – I just realized I’ll be within about a half hour of you in October for a couple of days. I imagine the thought of socializing with me for an hour or so might be equivalent to suggesting an evening of dental work, but if you wanna go out for a beer let me know and we can figure something out by email. It’s a pretty narrow window – I’ll have two evenings potentially free after 9pm (it’s a conference), but it’s there.
carlie and chas: I iz sooo jelly.
carlie, the truth is I don’t know where I’ll be in October. But remind me as it gets closer and I’d certainly be willing.
Chas and carlie sitting in a tree.
P. O. S. T. I. N. G.
Chas – ok, will do. It’s the last Thursday and Friday of October (24-25) if you’re around. I hope your locational uncertainty resolves itself in whatever way you most desire.
I don’t even…
Scarlett Johannson performing Tom Waits’ “Innocent when you dream”
So now that we know that Acetaminophen(Paracetamol) gets metabolised into an endogenous cannabinoid, why is it not being indexed or made a prescription drug by the FDA?
/plug
rorschach – SHHHHH!!!!!!
While we are at horrible Tom Waits covers:
Peter Gabriel » Tom Waits “In The Neighborhood”
I used to comment on Pharyngula and at times it makes me sad. We all have limits, some are built of interest, others of endurance, mine centre around time. Still, it’s strange to read names and be reasonably sure that people who once used those names are still drifting through life, maybe busily enriching other spaces, but to have no idea of the truth. This feels melancholy at times. At other times, it just feels bigger than me. I certainly can’t hold the space without participating, and even doing so I lose the space that it was. And so I wonder what they hold of here just as I try to puzzle what it means to me.
@ LykeX
Stumbleupon kicked this across my path. Coincidence? I think not.
Undoubtedly a result of quantum emergence of your inner selfhood. It’s the only rational explanation.
And Josh the geologist. *sigh*
Oh yes! And Alan the Cricket fan, cant remember his last name. Both featured in the first 100 or so iterations of TET.
It’s fun to go through old SB Pharyngula threads now, you recognize all the names and go “Ah yeah I remember that one” all the time.
@ LykeX
QHM ™ ‽
Anyone remember Elizabeth Smart? She was kidnapped at 14, held prisoner for nine months and raped on an almost daily basis by her kidnapper. She’s still a member of the Mormon church. She actually served a mission while her kidnapper/rapist’s trial was going on. Now she’s back, and she spoke at Johns Hopkins about human trafficking, sexual violence and abstinence-only education.
Her kidnapping had a real effect on everyone from that region – I lived not too far away from where her family lived at the time she was taken. I know – a pretty white girl from a middle-class family? The media was all over it. Much more attention than is paid to millions of other missing children. But still, there was an effect.
My younger brother, who has always had anxiety issues, was terrified to sleep on his own after Smart was kidnapped. He would sleep on the floor of my room, or our brothers’, or my mom’s. Or he would have the dog sleep in his room with him. This lasted for years. I’m not sure he’s completely over it, and he’s 25, now.
So here’s what Elizabeth Smart said at Johns Hopkins:
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/
I’m seeing a lot of Mormons with angry reactions, saying that what Smart is saying must be a problem of individual wards or stakes, and is not “doctrinally valid.”
To this I say BULLSHIT.
Young Women in the Mormon church are, at age 12, taught separately from the boys. Their lesson plans are based on Personal Progress, which is a program that has eight Values attached to it. It only had seven when I was in that program (1994 – 2002). The church leadership added a new one in (I think) 2008. I still have the first seven memorized:
Faith
Divine Nature
Individual Worth
Knowledge
Choice and Accountability
Good Works
Integrity
Virtue
That last one, in bolded letters? That’s the new one. Want to know one of the scriptural references related to that Value? By which I mean, not just a scripture that has the word “virtue” in it, but a specific scripture that is mentioned specifically in reference to this Value?
Moroni 9:9-10
Link for reference.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/9.9-10?lang=eng
This is as “doctrinally valid” as it fucking gets.
You mean the Trollhammer? Never did I see such slimy streams of blood as when a troll incurred his wrath.
I remember a time when a troll questioned the PatriotismTM of the commenters on the thread. He/she had been skirmishing with the other commenters, but with this statement, the fury of the Trollhammer was ignited. PZ had to banish what remained of the creature.
@ mythbri
That is some crappy babble fanfic there. Also on their website that you linked to:
Joseph Smith cajoled his fans to spend an outrageous amount on some scroll fragments from a traveling salesman. He claimed to be able to read ancient hieroglyphics and pronounced them as revelations relating to Abraham. This ruse was all fine – until advances in Egyptology caught up with his lies. They are, in actuality, bits of religious text concerning burial ceremonies and have sweet fuckall to do with anything JS claimed of them. If ever there was proof of what a charlatan JS was, this was it. Not that that is going to stop the Mormon’s lies for even a minute.
Theophontes,
Speaking of charlatans, I made an observation recently. I have pointed out to some Christians in my family, when they quote Paul, that if there is a clear con artist in the Bible, it is him. I have been told that this is impossible, because Paul was persecuted and alienated and even jailed for his beliefs, yet he kept going.
Yet they seem to easily accept that Mohammed and Joseph Smith were con men. Both faced adversity and push-back to their professed beliefs. Joseph and his brother were murdered by an angry mob while awaiting trial. Both Joseph Smith and Mohammed also had a lot of wives, and this is often implied by detractors to be a motivation for their religious stances.
So here’s what I’m wondering: Do mainstream Christians think that only hornballs can be con artists?
Wow, I’m babbling. Bed time.
@ gmacs
Joseph Smith styled himself as a new Mohammad, so there is some correlation right there.
OK, I first had to look up “hornballs”. I guess any, political/religious figure that is not xtian may be considered a con artist from a xtian perspective. How can they possess the Truth ™ if they do not follow Lord Jeebus?
It is interesting to note that it is a common enough trait amongst charasmatic, totalitarian leaders that they are “hornballs”. Classic examples would be the Kims of North Korea, with their “Joy Divisions” (Gippeumjo) of young women, press-ganged into providing sex to prominent politicians. The charismatic Jim Jones (of Jonestown, Guyana) built up a cult around his fixation with his own penis.
Mao Zedong required an endless supply of young peasant woman to quench his insatiable sexual appetite. Mao contracted Trichomonas vaginalis and knowingly passed it on to these women (he was asymptomatic and didn’t give a fuck about his partners health). But then:
The above three examples could easily be written off by the goddists as poor examples because they can be deemed “cultist” and/or “atheist”. The key issues though (I hazard a guess) are what they have in common with religious hornballiness. Think of all the “charasmatic” preachers (even in just the last few years) which have got caught with their pants down. Then also the aspect of totalitarianism at play, for example, in Catlick churchmen’s use of power structures to rape children en mass, and then being able to calculatedly cover it all up on an industrial scale.
These so called “atheist” dictators share all the real parts of religions. In this they are particularly alike. This is not particularly surprising, as repressive social structures must needs resort to similar means. (The “atheist” Stalin’s hoods picked up the very same instruments of torture that had been left behind by the repressive organs of the former (ie:Tsarist) church and state.)
The only real difference then is in the unreal. That one aspect clung to by the religious and abandoned by their secular emulators.
.
¹ This from Mao’s doctor,Zhisui Li.
FTFM:
womanwomenone aspect
*glances around*
Um, yeah.
So at the play park yesterday, kid #2 found lizards! (Melanistic variant, to boot.) My bird feeders have acquired a blackcap. And there are flowers on the apple tree.
Also, dandelions, but I say that this time every year. ;-)
*crickets glance around*
We don’t get lizards here but I smell skunk!
chigau, skunk does have a very distinctive smell.
(Or so I’ve heard)
@ John Morales
Psssst!
Shhhh, I could give you the contact details of my old supplier, who could help you out. I just don’t know if I’m *allowed* to.
John Morales
har! [I’ve never heard of that.]
this is better
babbies!
@ John Morales
{pssst}
I could give you the contact details of my old supplier.
@ chigau
Awwww… Your skunks are better than John’s.
@ chigau
If you respond to this comment quickly, you may get the coveted 666 title!
Slides into someone else’s spot.
*sniff*
I am not that smelly.
Oh, I didn’t even know.
That Bringing Trolling thread has brought out my [hushfile].
now there‘s a surprise.
Envy.
Hm. So we’ve had a previous-page post released: it’s fixed things for Beatrice (#502) and spoiled things for Dhorvath (#667), and promoted theophontes to TH#666. Excellent work, moderator!
(Anyone know offhand which post it was? Before I go looking …)
#503, whatever.
My comment still makes sense. I can cope.
re: my comments above about the magazine Nautilus:
Turns out, as per Coyne, it’s a Templeton rag.
Well the nautilus article is still cool.
Oh! Dhorvath: someone made a video of where we went for kid #1’s birthday. You’ll like it. ;-)
He’s a wizard on two wheels…
@ cm’s
Which is now proudly incorporated into the tardigrade’s nym.
& @ PZ
{whisper} [the cheque is in the mail oh eBil oberlawd.]
…
@ David Marjanović
The original “Joy Division” was set up for Kim Il-sung. There is a tradition out here that having lots of sex will increase one’s lifespan (this was also part of Mao’s reasoning in having sex with his myriad minions).
We had a similar image to this a few months ago on TD:[Lao tsu] and the Peach of Immortality. The peach also represents the female genitalia, the peach juices … er, *cough*, er, … {mumble} immortality. The , er .. shape of the old man’s head is not co-incidental either … {blushes}…
theophontes:
Probably true but wanking’s cheaper and less likely to lead to embarrassing diseases. ;-)
@ Lofty
But where is the er, *cough*, er… “peach juice”…?
(Also: This does not conform with the Yin-Yang principle. “One hand clapping”, or “Shooting at airplanes”, just doesn’t make the grade.)
HEY EVERYONE!
Got my grades and…
Legal Issues for the Musician: A
Archaeological Research Methods: A
Primate Behavior: B
Historical Archaeology: C
For the record, I’m majoring in Anthropology and Minoring in Commercial Music, hence the random legal music class.
I was already expecting that C because the class was frickin’ HARD (imagine Social Studies, only you’re memorizing artifacts along with dates and places and names, and also memorizing how to tell different versions of the same artifact apart… there wasn’t enough storage space in my brain… you archaeologists… I do not envy you your careers). However, I was expecting a 70 or 71. Instead I got a 78.4, which is better.
Still, I was hoping to get at least all A’s and B’s, so it’s a bit of a blow, but it just means I have to get straight A’s next semester. Which, considering the classes I signed up for, will actually be easier to achieve, I think… except maybe the Maya class (though it’s the same teacher as the Archaeological Research Methods class, and he’s a relatively easy grader, so I’m not worried).
Well done, NateHevens!
no wait…
Thunderdome…
So how did you screw up?
The peach, I believe also can represent an element of yang. My brother has studied Chinese martial arts since he was very young and is especially adept at a debilitating technique called “Monkey Snatches a Peach”.
Although, maybe he invented this technique.
I could probably ask him.
AE:
What, he becomes enfeebled each time he employs it?
John: I know you couldn’t possibly think that and you are just busting my peaches.
@ AE
Methinks that was Monkey King in “Journey to the West”. (He also drank all the wine.)
Cliquez ici, to see the Tori Amos version, where Monkey King steals then eats the (anthropomorphised) peaches of immortality.
AE, so it’s not a Dangerous Forbidden Technique, then?
<pouts>
theophontes: What a lovely song and video. I must see the movie now.
John: It really ought to be forbidden if it’s not already. But to clarify: it is not nearly so dangerous to oneself as one’s opponent.
@ AE
FIFY:
I must see the movie now.“I must read the book now.” (PDF)
謝謝你，聰明的朋友。
Wo kan bu dong!
“xie xie ni, wode tsong ming de pangyo.”
Oops. Just
Xie xie, wode cong pengyou…maybe. I’m starting to see how these tatoo plans go wrong.
Or maybe Ich bin ein Berliner
*haz an embarass*
the fuck?
*checks url; scrolls up to check sidebar*
*checks link; confirm match to current url*
to start with, if I was king, any comment that started off “HEY EVERYONE!” would go to the Lounge automatically.
also No Lolcatspeak in The Thunderdome! would be a Rule.
(isn’t that a Rule already? oughta be.)
Yup. Brought the book with me from China for my kid, he loved it. Nice mythology.
My mother had a really nice edition of Journey to the West. When I was … (not sure exactly how old, but) quite young, maybe about 10??? I read the whole book cover to cover and loved it. It’s a bit … discombobulating to realise I’m certain I’ll never do that again.
NEW THREAD. No LOLcats.