Oh, wow: guess who was to blame for the Sikh temple shooting? According to Pat Robertson, it was atheists!
I love how he piously deplores all violence against anyone worshipping god, without concern for which god they’re praying towards. As long as they’re not Muslim, I guess!
By the way, the murderer was “a neo-Nazi skinhead in the very thick of the white supremacist movement” who talked about racial holy war. I don’t think atheism was his motive.
Wait, he was a neo-Nazi? Shouldn’t Pat Robertson adore him then?
Seriously though, half the time I feel like neo-Nazis and conservatives like Pat Robertson would get along really well. There’s just so much stupidity they could agree upon.
Yes, what difference does it make if people accept evolution or believe twaddle like creationism? Because it certainly doesn’t matter if people learn that you need evidence before making an assertion, or it’s hardly honest.
Well, Pat’s never needed evidence for anything he says, so a bit of projection and it’s the atheists’ fault. No doubt Darwin’s fault will soon be ascertained by various members of the ignorati.
Glen Davidson
Sorry, Pat
I don’t hate god, because it is impossible to hate something that doesn’t exist.
I LOVE people. Even you. I just get frustrated when you blame massacres, tsunamis, whatever on one of two things: god’s judgment or me.
Quite simply, it’s a false dichotomy.
If I could cause a tsunami, I guess I’d direct it towards a deserted but active coal-fired electrical plant…oh, and disco.
Pat can’t wait till the facts come out. If he did, they’d contradict his statements. If he wants to attack atheism, he has to do it quickly. It screws things up to find out a right-wing believer is to blame! Too close for comfort. Right, Pat?
Ignoring Pat for a second:
I am so fucking pissed at NPR right now. Earlier, I was listening to All Things Considered and of course they led with the story of the shooting. After laying out that the shooter was a neonazi who fucking targeted a group of people who are not Christian and who are not white and who law enforcement described as a domestic terrorist, the fucking reporter had the nerve to say that we don’t know if this crime was politically motivated, so we can’t describe it as an act of terrorism.
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headfloor*
Pat Robertson is still alive?
This was predictable and very early for Pat Robertson.
You have no idea how hard it is to get him up and functioning.
His handlers have to first inject him with their special reanimation serum. Then they orient him to person, place, and time. And hand him the usual script and hope he manages to stay on message for a whole 5 minutes.
We probably aren’t going to know much more than this. Page didn’t seem to leave much of a public trail behind him.
And no one is going to be asking him any questions.
Dear Pat, the errr…”love” of god has done nothing or achieved anything…ever. This god is a dodgy fantasy as it never seems to do anything, of value or not. It’s a lazy redundant god that’s as useful as a fart in a spacesuit and you should really be embarrased about “worshipping” such a thing. Even its book of myths is a nonsense. Can’t god do anything right or for that matter, just do anything? What’s the point of a lazy ineffectual god? May as well worship a nice bottle of scotch. at least there’s a spirit that works.
The shooter might have been a perfect representative of the Neonazi/white supremacist scene – a real stupid arsehole:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/06/wisconsin-suspect-wade-michael-page
“but some in the Sikh community said they feared Page confused them for Muslims. Witnesses to the shooting described him as wearing a tattoo commemorating 9/11. Photographs also show him posing in front of a Nazi flag.
“Maybe he hated our community for the wrong reasons,” Amrit Dhaliwal, a local doctor and member of the Oak Creek temple, told the Guardian. “He may have thought putting a turban on was something else. We want to know: why did it happen?”
As Pat knows very well, white supremacist typically espouse Christian beliefs:
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Christian_Identity.asp?xpicked=4&item=Christian_ID
Christian Identity is a religious ideology popular in extreme right-wing circles. Adherents believe that whites of European descent can be traced back to the “Lost Tribes of Israel.” Many consider Jews to be the Satanic offspring of Eve and the Serpent, while non-whites are “mud peoples” created before Adam and Eve. Its virulent racist and anti-Semitic beliefs are usually accompanied by extreme anti-government sentiments. Despite its small size, Christian Identity influences virtually all white supremacist and extreme anti-government movements. It has also informed criminal behavior ranging from hate crimes to acts of terrorism.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/christian_identity/christianidentity19.html
The Evolution of Christian Identity
Christian Identity is sometimes known as British Israelism, Israel identity, and Kingdom message. Its origins lie in mid-19th century Britain. The most basic idea animating its adherents is that white Christians are the true Israelites of the Old Testament and are God’s chosen people (see Bushart et al., 1998, for fuller discussion). In its modern, American incarnation, Christian Identity argues that the US is the Promised Land spoken of in the Bible. Identity supporters believe that ten lost tribes of Israel migrated to Europe, Great Britain and eventually the USA. They argue that fundamental differences distinguish one race from another and therefore that they should not co-mingle. Miscegenation is the ultimate horror, threatening to dilute the pure bloodstock of the Aryan master race.
This prejudice is cast in Biblical mode. Non-whites were created with other animals before Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden. Hence, they are not fully human. The theory of different origins enables many believers to claim that they are not racists at all. In contradiction to the general thrust of their propaganda, they argue that the races are not necessarily inferior or superior. They are just different, in the same way that cattle are different to dogs or humans, and have different roles, rights, and entitlements. Tim Houser, an Identity follower, has said:
Identity is not racist. Jews and blacks are what they are. God chose to… make blacks with the animals, we didn’t. I have to believe God, and he spelled it out clear in the Bible. I’d give the shirt off my back to a black man if he came to my door. But I can’t make him the same as me (Cited by Dyer, 1998, p.94).
So, until further notice I say this crime is likely motivated by christian xenophobic motivated believes.
And Pat Robertson is in effect a supporter of white christian terrorism.
If I recall he was also the man who blamed the Haitian earthquake on the Haitians. And this man is respected by some. It does make you wonder why anyone holds humanity in high regards…
Taylor
http://taylorbaine.com
The problem with guys like Mr. Robertson is that they’re so convinced of the need to keep us aware of the monster in the sky that they’re completely unable to see the monsters in our midst.
It’s just so easy to despise Pat Robertson…. so I think I will.
I fear one day it will be an atheist convention that gets a visit from someone like this.
This guy was a Christian, the guy two weeks ago was a Christian.
These Christian folks seem awfully violent to me.
Robertson determined the Haitian earthquake was retribution from God for Haitians making a pact with Satan in 1807.
Because shooting Muslims, instead of Sikhs, would have been perfectly reasonable.
“Because shooting Muslims, instead of Sikhs, would have been perfectly reasonable.”
If you proclaim to be a supremacist of any kind: at least get your enemies straight. To shoot willy nilly any foreigners just because they wear a turban is simply not acceptable.
One has to expect standards.
barfly @3:
To each his own, I guess. I don’t hate Pat Robertson, but I do detest him. I’m only comfortable saying I love you to someone that I know. A married couple in Montana? Expectant parents in Bolivia? Indigenous Peoples of America? I don’t know any of them, so I wouldn’t use the word love. I would say I respect their basic humanity. I wouldn’t have to develop strong emotional ties to an individual before I can say I love them.
Apparently the confusion re: sihk/muslim is widespread —
The FBI is investigating whether this was an act of terrorism. How dumb can they be? The guy was a good Christian, not Muslim. Case closed; he wasn’t a terrorist.
Of course. Nothing is so innocent as the Baptist and the Catholic and the Muslim effort to bring God into our daily lives. Why can’t you crazy violent, reactionary atheists stop shooting up their churches? Why do you hate innocence?
god definitely moves in mysterious ways but he’s also awfully slow about it.
Pat finally said it Muslims and Sikhs actually worship God. Is this progress?
Falwell blamed 9/11 on gays and atheists. The Pope blamed permissive secular culture for the Catholic churches pedophile scandal! It’s utterly predictable the Robertson would blame atheism for a mass shooting. Religious fanatics have proven over and over again they don’t always understand responsibility or cause and effect.
As far as I know, the only person responsible for the Sikh temple shooting was some douchebag named Wader Michael Page. Nobody else.
As far as I know, the only person responsible for the Sikh temple shooting was some douchebag named Wader Michael Page. Nobody else.
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I do not want to sound like a tone troll nor anything like that but I do want to say “it” like that.
The guy was a miserable person who did an awful thing.
He would I would judge have to be miserable in all of the definitions of miserable I just read while looking up how to spell the word correctly.
He looks like he also did suicide by police but since he was going to do it any way he took a bunch of none whites with him.
I am not making any excuses or calling anyone on calling him any names they want. I do not care.
there are no words to use for Pat though there is nothing to say. I will not miss him when he stops.
uncle frogy
I get the sentiment here, but I’ve always thought it was a little misguided. Personally, I have absolutely no qualms about saying that I hate God. I hate plenty of fictional villains, and God is by far the worst one in the history of storytelling. I think it’s important that we not only recognize that God isn’t real, but that God the character is a terrible, terrible personlike entity that no one should look to as a source of moral guidance.
I mean, we would rightly call it reprehensible if someone started basing their morality on the actions and commands of Voldemort. God is vastly more evil.
And the morass of right-wing rhetoric that taught him to be such a douchebag. People do not exist in a vacuum. He would not have been the person he was if his society hadn’t made him so.
Ah well. He’ll be dead soon.
xjustos @ 28: Oooo, are you getting out your sock puppets again, Mabus/Markuze?
xjustos = dennis the idiot markuze?
Just asking. The style is so familiar
Guys, remember The Rules
Sinister Swarthy Orientals and Bestial Negroes are terrorists. Dune coons are all terrorists. Mohammedans are born terrorists.
White Christian Gun-Owners are “separatists” or “tax protesters” or “lone nuts” or “mavericks”. They are never EVER terrorists.
You don’t get it PZ! It’s OBVIOUSLY atheists’ fault because DARWIN INVENTED HITLER.
/Poe
Why do some people confuse Sikhs and Muslims? Their turbans are quite different and distinctive. Anyone who’s perused National Geographic or spent time in a major metropolitan city or simply paid attention should surely know the difference.
Except the frightened little children who inhabit adult bodies and make up the bulk of the white supremacist movement, that is.
This is the fear that is engendered by ignorance. Hatred and violence is a common result of such insecurity and lack of insight. Such is inevitable, I observe.
Now I’ve answered my own question.
Well … who were you expecting him to blame it on. Flip Wilson made blaming the devil passe with his “The devil made me do it” routine. And ecumenicism has blocked blaming most other religions. On the way to the provisional truth, somewhere between “shit happens” and rhetorically guided and inspired “crazy”, he was bound to give blaming atheists a go.
Of course God, by both definition and scripture (birds falling from branches and all that), knows about and is the driving force of all things but, like a child abused by a parent, it is a contradiction that doesn’t allow the child to place blame where it belongs.
Epicurus had a line about God not knowing, not caring, or lacking power. And how this makes God completely undeserving of praise or worship. The observed facts and definition of God make even a hypothetical God unworthy. But you aren’t going to hear any of that from brother Pat. Both he, and his broadcast empire, depend on people not understanding that.
Wait a minute, how does Pat Robertson get away with going on tv and accusing atheists of murder and hate when it was someone from HIS OWN religion that did it?
And we just shake our heads and go “oh that silly Pat Robertson” ?!?
Doesn’t America have a standards authority like in England? Better still why hasn’t this group been sued into the ground?
Is it known that Page self-identified as Christian? I can’t find any information to that effect, so it looks to me as if a lot of people here are also jumping to conclusions. Page’s primary identification looks to be with the “Hammerskins” hate group. The image here shows a tattoo with the Celtic Cross – adopted by many neo-Nazis – and the number “14”. The latter is a reference to the number of words in the Hammerskins’ slogan:
So far as I can discover, Hammerskins make no specific reference to any religion in their propaganda, but their reverence for Vikings (along with Nazis) might suggest a pagan identity. More broadly, there are Christian neo-Nazis, but also pagan and atheist neo-Nazis: the ideology focuses on race, not religion.
Here is the text of an interview page gave to his music label, Label56, in 2010. It’s unrevealing, however. Page says his songs cover “religion”, but does not say what angle they take.
So he’s not blaming the Sikhs then? At least there’s something.
WARNING: LINK TO NEO-NAZI SITE
Here is the politics blog of Label56, Wade’s music label. Very revealing – particularly the favourable references to Pat Buchanan! Other favourable references include Ron Paul, Merlin Miller, Presidential candidate for the American Third Position (A3P), and a range of non-American neo-Nazi groups. Amusingly, it describes both the left, and governments taking any kind of action against neo-Nazism as “neo fascist”.
“One has to expect standards”
Which is why Norwegian racist wing nuts condemned Breivik.
Murdering white kids? That’s just rude.
(actually, some defended the ideology behind his deeds)
Hey, I’m not like Pat Robertson.
Therefore, I’m not going to claim that Pat is the leader of a secret terrorist organization, and that Page, Breivic, McVeigh, and similar people were all members of that organization.
And I will not claim that their mission statement is to blame atheists for their deeds, aiming for a final solution.
And I won’t mention Black Helicopters.
I guess I can appreciate the way Pat stayed in metaphysical territory. He didn’t claim that the shooting were a “false flag operation,” a comment I’ve seen in a wide range of forums.
Maybe the veins in your brain have to be more elastic to allow you to entertain the notion that a government agent or atheist would live in deep cover as a skinhead for 6 years in order to shoot 6 people so the populace would demand gun control laws.
According to the American Patriarchy Association’s Bryan Fischer, Wade Michael Page was of the left because he hated Herman Cain. Such impeccable black and white logic.
We often get lambasted for making cruel, rude, fun of fundamentalist idiots like Pat Roberton and are given a “no true christian” defense then told about “sophisticated theology”.
I just need to point out that the Pope does exactly the same thing. And I’m pretty sure the oldest christian church prides itself on its “sophisticated theology”
Pat says atheists are mass murderers and so does the Pope
I wonder if Page did in fact know he was killing Sikhs, and not Muslims. His ilk wouldn’t like them any better.
The fact that Pat Robertson is still around points to two inescapable possibilities.
1) his god doesn’t exist
2) his god does exist, but is a bigger asshole than purported in The Bible.
So far, I have found no evidence to suggest that the murderous wingnut in question identified as an atheist, or had any particular connection to atheism whatsoever, not that I would expect a little thing like reality to get in the way of Robertson’s atheist bashing. As Zeno points out @ 4, Robertson wants to link atheism with this atrocity in the public mind before the facts come out. He hopes that, if he can get the lie to stick quickly enough, then the majority of his audience won’t bother finding out the actual facts, being quite happy to place the blame on an already reviled minority. In a society where polls indicate that bigotry against atheists is so deep rooted that we are considered no more trustworthy than rapists, he is probably correct in that estimation.
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gragra, something clever after the comma @ 13;
And if that does happen, what is the betting that the likes of Robertson will be lining up to explain how that is totally different from acts of violence against religious groups?
Afterall, those godless infidels were asking for it – they must have provoked their attacker by being so offensive as to be openly atheist. If they had just had the decency to stay in the closet, then this would never haver happened etc, etc.
Or he could have died and come back as a Zombie or Ghoul. In fact, everything we see points to this.
My current theory is that he is, in fact, dead. Periodically his handlers inject him with a special reanimation serum and he gets up and lurches around for a while, droning on about gods and atheists.
That could happen.
Xianity has been drenched in blood for 2,000 years. The religion started with a murder for Cthulhu’s sake.
Hitchens: Xianity lost its best argument when it stopped burning people alive.
Xian terrorism has been a serious problem in the USA for decades. Any atheist meeting should have a comprehensive security plan before they start.
Okay…
I live in Wauwatosa, which is also in Milwaukee County. As do my wife and son.
My wife is from South Milwaukee, which is also in Milwaukee County. She had to go visit her Mom and Dad Sunday night, which meant she drove through Oak Creek (where the Temple is, and it’s right by the airport), then to leave she had to go through Cudahy, which is where the shooter was living…
Despite the fact that we’re all atheists, and former Catholics, not one of us had anything to do with this… Why?
Because we’re not skinheads (although I am a punk from the 70s), we don’t believe in white “holy war” and we don’t have a gun, nor do we allow guns on our property.
Duh.
“Maybe he hated our community for the wrong reasons,” Amrit Dhaliwal, a local doctor and member of the Oak Creek temple, told the Guardian. “He may have thought putting a turban on was something else. We want to know: why did it happen?”
Because you were different.
This concludes today’s episode of easy answers to easy questions.
Now, as to why the deluded fuckhead wasn’t even smart enough to know the difference? Who knows. I don’t think that it really mattered to him.
It makes me sick in a way I can’t completely articulate when people “defend” a person or group as “not Muslim” (or “not gay”, etc). It happened back when Barack Obama was “accused” of being a sekrit moozlim.
Yes, it is important for everyone to know the difference between Islam and Sikhism (and Hinduism, etc), but only because there is in fact a difference and it’s good be be correct about true things — not because there’s some sort of difference in the group’s deserving of violence. Even Amrit Dhaliwal, who has my sympathy as an affected member of the community, indirectly suggested that there could be “right” reasons for such terrorist acts.
Of course what s/he probably meant was that the shooter may have been wrong factually in a way he wouldn’t have been had it been a mosque — not wrong morally. The phrase “wrong reasons” blues this because of the word “wrong” having both meanings (it’s possible English isn’t Dhaliwal’s first language, but even native speakers make gaffes like that all the time).
Oops, I meant:
… but of course it was a deliberate demonstration of my point.