This is new! I usually don’t get rape fantasies, but Thunderf00t’s angry rabble have opened up exciting new vistas.
The whole point of free-thinking is to express what you have been thinking to others; what would the point of Socrates’ trial have been if he had not made the impressive speeches he made? If the people judging him had simply written him off as ‘too out there’ and simply condemned him five minutes into his talking? The point I’m trying to make is that as much as I think Watson is at a minimum misguided, you are culpable for much worse. Free Speech is the fundamental human right; without it, we are all doomed. You removing his website because you disagree on a matter of opinion makes you as bad as the papacy banning books, or Iran banning books, etc. etc…. In other words, by shutting off free expression you have sauntered effortlessly to lines the old and evil; too much information is bad, we decide what you should be exposed to, let’s have Salman Rushdie killed for writing something we don’t agree with. You have not tried to have Tf00t killed yet(my, what restraint you have), but at this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see that either. You’re supposed to be a scientist; a little open-mindedness goes a long way in investigating the truth.
In this modern world the only way to survive and live well is to laugh, rather than cry… A little cynicism never hurt anyone.
Anyway, I don’t believe I shall be reading your blogs any more; at least until you apologize to Mr. f00t; if you don’t all I can to is hope you get raped to death by Jaguars in the Yucatan. Next time think with your brain instead of your balls, and maybe over time I’ll grow to trust and respect you again. until then, eat shit. I mean, you’re supposed to be a scientist, for Christ’s sake.
I could swear some more but based off what I know of you you’re probably bawling already. Nobody likes a crybaby. You old cunt.
Thanks for your time!
Phil Krstulich,
someone who actually believes in equality of right for all humankind, and who isn’t a two-faced fuck who pretends to be in favor of free speech while trying to stamp it out.
Curses! My plan to have Thunderf00t killed has been exposed!
I have now seen a teeny tiny fraction of what Anita Sarkeesian gets.
But you understand why they get murdered.
Hey transphobic fellow, how about fucking off?
Some people do not identify as either exclusively male or exclusively female. Some do. It’s not up to you tell those who do that they shouldn’t.
Get it? It’s really simple.
You’ve read that into my posts. I don’t think the concept of trans-gender is delusional. Just declaring that you’re actually the opposite gender.
reasonable fellow:
Again, already covered by ibbica. Since you haven’t bothered to reply to #68, I can only assume you missed it, skipped over it, didn’t understand it, or just ignored it.
It seems you agree with it in part, at least, considering your response at #486.
Bully for you!
Too bad society thinks differently.
And if it were up to me, a person could select their role from the palette of available societal roles. As society defines specific behaviors as male or female, the simplest and most logical solution is to allow someone to self-identify as either.
As my personal preference is the one that is best backed by science and biology, I’ll take my solution as both the most logical, and the best for those involved.
You are transphobic because you are denying that they can fucking determine for themselves who and what they are. YOu are transphobic because you enjoy hurting trans people. You are transphobic because you joke about how it’s trans people’s fault if they’re murdered. You are transphobic because you are deliberately hurting trans people with your shit. You are transphobic because you claim that trans women aren’t “real” women.
Fuck off.
He’s already flounced once. He’ll probably be whining on for a few hours yet.
Why do you think that “male” and “female” and “man” and “woman” should be off-limits to those who are transgender?
Do you simply not think they have a RIGHT to such designators? – you know, like gays don’t have the RIGHT to the term “marriage” to signify their committed long-term relationships?
That’s exactly where this is going.
Of course, you realize you’ve lost ALL credibility at this point, right? I mean, you did a little jingle – that was just profound. Either your evil twin Skippy is taking over your account while you go to the bathroom or you’re completely inconsistent and painfully dishonest.
I fucking hate hate hate this term!
Witness the characteristic JAQing off behavior of the brick-wall troll. Note the propensity for asking the same question in a different permutation, after the question has been answered multiple times. The troll seeks to exasperate and exhaust the opponent, whose eventual frustration will be treated as evidence of failure.
All this talk of Cleveland and no Chrissie?
(And let’s not forget Akron.)
And to keep on topic, Chrissie Hynde knew when to fuck off.
1: Because that’s fucking inaccurate.
2: Because you don’t get to make that determination.
3: Because it’s right up there with “let them have the LICENSE, but just have them call it something other than MARRIAGE” in terms of ways of saying “my adherence to traditional definitions is more important to me than your equality and, indeed, WHO YOU ARE”
How many times have you heard homophobic bullshit like “there’s no such thing as gay PEOPLE, just gay BEHAVIOR” or “they’re just confused” or “it’s just a phase” or, quite tellingly, “they’re just lying to themselves”? If you don’t see how you’re doing something remarkably similar here, then I don’t know what hope there is for you. Bring on the fucking banhammer.
Reasonable Fellow has switched back to being ‘reasonable’.
But none of us can un-see or un-read your maliciously stupid little tantrum. Putting the mask back on will do you no good.
This right here is everything wrong with the skeptic movement. The knee jerk “you fucking hippies don’t have a right to tell me what to do or how to think!” bullshit.
Let me give you an important life lesson and this is especially true if you do this knee jerk: You are not a rebel, you are not edgy, you are not principled; you are in fact an asshole.
Nothing takes a cheese grater to my tits more than people being ‘edgy’ or ‘rebellious’ by spouting the same bullshit that is the dominant cultural narrative. Der der der I’m going to be edgy now and rehash jokes about women and men differences from the 1850s der der der.
So I can perform a sex change on you via repeated blows to the nose? Sounds like fun, when are you free to test this experiment?
@Mythbri
I’m glad someone did it, not that it helps
JAQing off, Winning by Losing, Hotel California, Extreme Tunnel Vision.
Personally it’s at the point where I think troll is meaningless, many people here are earnest even if being assholes. I think the criteria for judgement should be based on behavior and I would recommend the cracked list as a good basis of cardinal sins.
To everyone confused about the “science” of gender I reconomend an adorable little cartoon series
Cartoons depicting gender and sex roles of animals,
Link is an article about the series, direct linke here but you’ll have to dig around for the relevant ones as they’re not past into a goddamn group like they should be damnit!
So, thanks to Janine, I’m now listening to The Clash. And watching kittens sleep. It’s a good way to counter the nauseating feeling that the transphobic trash here causes.
Transphobic fellow, I feel a need to inform you that you have now moved into the “wouldn’t piss on him if he were on fire” category. At least unless you could prove you are a chimp. Then I would be required to piss on a chimp on fire, but let it be known that I wouldn’t like it.
RF:
Ah, yes, dumb internet tactic #34566114: backtracking and pretending you’ve never said what you said…
You think transwomen and transmen are delusional. You’re apparently OK with intersex people who don’t identify either as male or female.
So, yeah, still transphobic.
*pulls over Reasonablefellow in a black Ford LTD*
May I see your license and Identification please?
*handed over*
May I see your OTHER license and identification?
*hands real one*
Ok Reasy, your resident troll card has you limited to the TZT, what’s going on?
No I don’t think so. Nobody has the right to be seen by other people how they see themselves.
I don’t see much of a parrallel with the gay marriage argument here, for them its not really about what other people think.
I had zero credibility from my first post in this thread. I’ve lost nothing.
Agreement.
And who’s fault is that?
Marriage is between a man and a woman by definition. The gays do not have a right to force other people to acknowledge their delusion.
fredsalvador
It’s a good one. As What a Maroon says, everybody’s got ’em – means arse-hairs, in the flavour of Spanish I speak at least. National/regional variations?
I guess a date is out of the question then?
wasn’t aware you were into that sort of thing.
*The medical science of mental health needs a Richard Dawkins. Scientology is spreading disinformation with “museums” the same way creationists do.*
As skeptics, atheists, and agnostics, we turn to science for answers, and more importantly, questions. Psychology, psychiatry, and the biomedical engineering are all scientific pursuits. They are subject to peer review and use the scientific. They make falsifiable claims and change as new hypotheses are challenged and falsified.
Although psychology may have had a dubious beginning, biology did as well. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck’s theory of heredity was later found to be largely incorrect, but it was a step in the right direction. Similarly, some of Darwin’s ideas on the specifics of evolution are no longer accepted. Biological science and evolutionary biology have grown into wonderful ways for humanity to better itself and improve standards of living.
The human brain is the most complex organ in the known universe. Psychology, psychiatry, and evolutionary psychology all seek to grapple with ailments and disorders of the brain. All of these scientifically based modes of inquiry have had great success in treating mental illness and reducing the morbidity and mortality of mentally ill people. Scientology seeks to invade this scientific area of knowledge and replace it with its own pseudoscientific system of ‘auditing.’
Through my recent research, though brief, I have surmised that scientologists use biofeedback (a common technique in occupational therapy, which is based in science) and combine it with malicious interrogation to get the effects they desire. I have done biofeedback before in a medical context that had nothing whatever to do with Scientology. I immediately recognized ‘dianetics’ to be a primitive form of biofeedback that is misused and misrepresented by people with no medical training. ‘Auditing’ is a crudely plagiarized system of psychology designed to make Scientologist feel better whilst fleecing them of all of their money. For this reason, Scientology is no better than the fundamentalist forms of Christianity that build creationist “museums” and publish books attacking evolutionary biology. There is actually an analogous Scientology museum in California that is dedicated to spreading disinformation about psychology and psychiatry. [Wikipedia article on the museum]( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry:_An_Industry_of_Death)
We should not polemicize Scientology because of its laughable beliefs in aliens or because of the eccentric personalities. We should attack it for the same reasons that we attack fundamentalist Christianity. They are intruding on Science’s turf and claiming that they have a better idea, despite the fact that their methods are not subject to peer review or scientific testing. Evolutionary biology has Richard Dawkins to protect it worldwide and foot soldiers like Aaron Ra fight disinformation in the public square – the very place that disinformation comes from. **Where is psychiatry’s Richard Dawkins or Aaron Ra?** Scientology is using a systematic campaign of disinformation against science, displacing it from the brains of its followers and replacing it with pseudoscientific garbage. We should seek to find a high level Psychiatrist to take up the quarrel with our pseudoscientific foe. Scientologists are entitled to a nonviolent psychosis the same as any other deluded person. However, when they start bashing science they’ve got a problem with us.
>”I don’t have an issue with what you do in the church, but I’m going to be up in your face if you’re going to knock on my science classroom and tell me they’ve got to teach what you’re teaching in your Sunday school. Because that’s when we’re going to fight.” -The Amazing Meeting, Keynote Speech, 2008 Neil DeGrasse Tyson
**TL;DR** Scientology substitutes pseudoscience in place of scientific psychiatry. They’re picking a fight with us.
RF:
Translation:
…
What the fuck does Scientology have to do with the OP or the topic it’s degraded into?
Civil unions have all the rights of marriage and gays should be allowed to have that, but not marriage itself.
Also for fuck sake, ban the fucker.
Are you saying that there’s absolutely no natural categories that determine male/female?
What I don’t get is why anyone would spend so much time and effort fighting for their , when said is flatly contradicted by the science. Doesn’t seem very to me.
And the goalpost gets moved.
I should have picked stubborn fellow as a moniker really, but reasonable seems to wind people up.
O,o transphobic shitheads in this thread?
That’s not what anyone said and you know it.
The many many MANY mechanisms that determine male/female were listed, as well as the numerous sexes classifications that exist in biology. Your simplistic “chromosomes” is just wrong biologically.
Genes
Plumbing
Genitals (internal and external parts)
Mind
Orientation
We’re being played. Ban the troll.
Why don’t you try rolling in some kerosene and then lighting a match? Maybe I decide to give you a chance.
No, it sort of went from you looking ignorant, to willfully ignorant, to blinded by privilege, to lacking empathy, to being inconsistent, to being dishonest, to be sadistic…
I mean, there has been a progression.
Anything that occurs in nature is “natural”, including the trans evidence that was presented to you. Nothing in biology can be “unnatural”. Any fool knows that, except a presuppositional fool like yourself. You presume the answers, then find “evidence” to back it up. I much prefer to find the evidence in people, then create the theories…
There is no simple clear cut definition of sex and gender. Anyone who claim so is about 80 or so years out of date on their biology.
A turd by any other name would smell just as foul.
Oh. And thanks for confirming that you are just here to troll.
I was replying to irenedelse not you Ing but I agree all of those factors must be aligned to determine a persons gender one way or the other (or in-between).
Seriously, thumb through the cartoons…they’re cute.
RF sez:
Cute, but still a big old bag o’ FAIL. Pretending to attribute to me what I attribute to you is a trick as old and stoopid as “I know you are but what am I?”
Nice try.
No you are wrong. each are a separate criteria. It is very easy to mess up the gender (or shall we say brain parts) while keeping everything else fine. IIRC we have actually done this in labs with other animals.
Also you’re out of your probation zone. Go away
See here as the shit speckled troll acts as if a blog that is open to the public is his own domain where he makes the rules.
This is obvious for animals that have male/female reproduction, but different types of possible male genders (for lack of better term). Check the cartoons I listed, cuttlefish are listed as one such example.
Your binary view is wrong and now you’re using it to distract from the fact that you’re a huge asshole.
Why not address my point about your knee jerk douchebaggery
Well don’t look at the cartoons I shared then! I was talking to Coyote not you! I like him better.
ericmaceachern, what in the fuckety fuck does that wall of text have to do with the topic at hand? I take it you didn’t even bother to read the damn post.
If you’re just spamming this crap everywhere, shove it up your ass and fuck off.
Ing, it does not matter if the shit speckled troll goes to TZT. He is out of here once PZ gets back online.
Thats not what i’m doing. You’re saying that i’m wrong for thinking that there are definite categories for male and female. I want you to say that there aren’t and we can never really know what sex a person is. Or, you know, back down.
As a side ntoe though, Scientology does seem to be one of those Skeptiinc blindspots. Both Skeptoid and Bullshit are apparently too afraid to actually address the issue. Well Skeptoid addressed it but refused to even acknowledge the arguments of those against the church and made the whole podcast as “why are people so against them!?” without even apparently going out to find the answer. Bullshit doesn’t out of apparent cowardice
I choose who and what I reply to Janine.
Jadzia:
Pages and pages worth of one shitheaded, toxic asspimple. PZ quarantined it to TZT, where upon it declared “ban me”. Just poking it now while waiting for the banhammer to drop.
When all of those are aligned, or close to, that’s a cis person. Trans people have different answers to each of those. The ones that mean the least is the one people assign your sex by. This is why the simplistic bullshit theories are just that, bullshit.
You are wrong unless you are talking about micro vs macrogametes produced.
And even then, when you have animals that actually change which type they produce that distinction isn’t a clear binary.
You clearly have issues with perceptions of impotency based on your attitude and your knee jerk “i don’t like being pushed around” 12 year old attitude.
I acknowledge that you make that choice, but I think you are lying to yourself about who you intend to reply to.
@Caine
Ah, I see. Dropped by this post from my rss reader to see if there were any interesting comment, and there is is, 2000+ and current topic, transphobia.
Just perfect. I need to clean my bathroom, not this >.<
Fuckface, you were telling someone that you were in a conversation with an other. This does not work in an open forum.
You really are not very smart, shit speckled troll.
Vaguely apropos:
Pay particular attention to the How Sexuality Is Portrayed / How Sexuality Is bit.
how does your sex binary fit into eusocial animals what have asexual or largely asexual workers? I mean we usually call them females but if they’re not reproducing…
Oh, you might think you’re choosing who to reply to, toxic asspimple, however, that’s a delusion. You’re just lying to yourself.
By posting your thoughts publicly, you’re speaking to everyone in the square. This isn’t a tete`-a-tete´ with tea and scones where you get to pretend you’re a reasonable fellow. No, afraid not. You’ve exposed yourself in the public square, dropped your pants, so to speak, thereby showing your deficiencies to all and sundry.
Fuck You RF
Now we’re getting separate but equal? Lovely.
My word! Between this and my observation of apparent issues of impotency we are getting quite Freudian.
RF:
I love it when trolls’ disregard for the most basic rules of grammar and punctuation make their pronouncements sound even more ridiculous…
@Improbable Joe
No we are getting Equal and Delusional.
That’s not even what it happening here.
A person is the best source of information on what that person’s gender is.
It is extremely rude to substitute your assessment of hir gender (based on insufficient evidence) for the one that person has communicated to you.
As you’ve admitted (finally) gender has a physiological basis. It is NOT only a social construct (as was once thought) NOR is it binary NOR can it be determined by appearance or chromosomes.
This has been explained to you many times and in different ways.
At this point, either you’re just having an extremely difficult time with this information or you have some sort of bet with someone about the comment count you can generate.
Unreasonable Fellow doesn’t urinate, water just leaves his body in shame
Jadzia:
No one needs this. The vile bigot already triggered one person, who bothered to say as much, who knows how many others? Doesn’t care a whit, either. Seems to think that triggering someone isn’t possible, which illustrates fully just what it thinks of transpeoples.
Oh, PZ.
Please get home!
Btw, even beyond the trans stuff the gender binary quickly gets into gender shame when it goes to androgyny bashing.
I don’t think so. I’m not going to respond to posts that start with “hey fuckface” for instance. For fairly obvious reasons.
*snort*
@Ing:
Either way we’re getting Dumb and Bigoted.
You know, the vile bigot ‘reasonable fellow’ falls into the classification of human, however, I think it’s just lying to itself by considering itself human. It certainly isn’t a decent human being, so in my opinion, it isn’t human. And hey, it’s just my opinion, it can’t hurt anyone! I’m not interested in semantics, ya know.
That is so much worse than stating why you think some people get murder.
Your ethical bearing is deeply flawed, shit speckled troll.
It doesn’t hurt me Caine. You’re objectively wrong if you don’t think i’m human.
Reasonable Fellow,
Click and enjoy.
Louis
For one example. Here we have two sperm producing classifications, that have different hormone levels and mating strategies? Do we say they are both male gendered, or male in different ways? Or do we acknowledge that save for their sex establishing a male/female gender on them is anthropomorphizing and acknowledge they have multiple genders. Your binary is wrong.
And Reasonable Fellow, you are objectively wrong about trans people as has been amply demonstrated by the evidence hidden in those lovely links you’ve not read.
Oh well.
Louis
unreasonable fellow;
That’s because you are wrong. Your ability to ignore and dismiss evidence is quite impressive in some ways.
I doubt it; you responded to me, fuckface.
Ing, #72,
I heard that too. I also heard that the Ebola Virus caught Reasonable Fellow, and had to be humanely terminated.
Louis
@Caine
Well, I’m relatively thick-skinned, and it seems you guys got this creep cornered. But fuck that creep for making other people’s life miserable.
Reasonable Fellow once caught the incurable brain eating amoeba…however, he unlike the rest of us was fortunately able to just poo it out.
Reasonable Fellow’s head is so far up his ass his lungs have evolved to breath farts
@unreasonable fellow
I suppose it’s more that no one have seen any evidence of your humanity yet?
Reasonable Fellow once threatened to give someone a piece of his mind. He was overly generous when he followed through.
The evidence i’ve seen so far has been a stupid website with a gingerbread man explaining gender. Some crap about chickens and a blog page full of links I can’t access because I don’t have pubmed.
So I wouldn’t be too impressed by my evidence-ignoring abilitys Stella.
@Reasonable Fellow
Also cartoons. I figured you might like them since they have pretty pictures.
Unreasonable Fellow is one of the few people I know who are in danger of catching E.Coli from post nasal drip.
Androgynious-The Replacements
Covered by Against Me! with Joan Jett!
I heard Ken Ham took one look at reasonable fellow, and instantly converted to Darwinism.
Because no loving god could have come up with that fucker.
Pubmed allows you to read the abstracts without a subscription – what did those abstracts say?
tick tick tick
abilities*
as in “Intelligence and reading and compassion are just a few of the abilities that I, reasonablefellow, am lacking”
Actually that Unreasonablefellow hasn’t yet killed themselves in a flushing accident is evidence to me of a higher power that looks out for idiots.
Natural selection is falsified.
I would think it splattered all over the receiver’s shoes. The person could never again get the smell of shit out so they had to throw away the shoes. It was the greatest achievement in transphobic fellow’s life.
No, I’m not. You’re just lying to yourself. I can see what is what quite clearly. You aren’t human.
No, actually, you were given much more than that, and you even acknowledged that the conclusions the evidence leads to were true (via your answer to Ogg’s question), but then you proceeded to make the same arguments made by every bigot ever once they have been shown that they have no legitimate ground to stand on, specifically this ‘separate but equal’ nonsense you’ve been spewing. You know all of this. You’re lying again.
That they were studies into the brains of transexual males.
Okay.. I don’t care.
Caine, the shit speckled troll does not understand sarcasm. Especially sarcasm based on his own words.
I’m personally astounded that he survives tying his shoelaces every morning.
Reasonable Fellow once snuck into the shallow end of the gene pool but was kicked out for being way out of his depth and needing armbands.
Louis
Transexual males?
Don’t you just mean transsexuals?
No arguments then? I’m glad we all got this thing cleared up.
We’re in this together guys.
If only your father had. Would have saved your mother 9 months of trouble and us 1000 comments of face palm
Is it time for the mum jokes yet?
Louis
Janine:
I’m aware. :D It’s a pity reasonable fellow isn’t human and therefor can’t harness the requisite brain power to figure out how words work. Tsk.
Still not funny, shit speckled troll.
We’re really not.
@Louis
No, she has suffered enough.
The wit you morons display is astounding. Pat each other on the backs (again).
Look you don’t respond to arguments and promised to go away if everyone insulted you. I don’t see what you’re complaining about
What no arguments? remember, we are in this together!
Hey, I could ask you for an email address and which papers you’re interested in and see what I could do.
If I wasn’t absolutely sure you’re trolling us, that is.
Don’t we me, shitstain. There is no conceivable meaning of the word we that includes you and decent human beings.
Hey, you know what reasonable fellow? Everyone here has admitted empathy and the fact that they care about people who are marginalized. But you – you are posting an awful lot for someone who claims they don’t care about any of it. Also, I thought you were bored. Clearly you weren’t bored enough.
We’re doing it Ing, we’re making a difference.
@Mythbri
He’s not bored. He’s delusional.
Are you trying to make us feel bad, shit speckled troll?
We are playing with until PZ is finally able to take care of this place again. You are not long for this blog and we must get our furs properly sniny.
No, see the purview of social justice is with human beings. Decent human beings. You aren’t a human being, let alone a decent anything. You’re just a braying, toxic, bigoted pisscake with delusions of being human. You’re just lying to yourself.
In your pants I’m sure.
Btw, what are your issues with power and lack of control? They really seem to bug you
Nightjar, if I was sure that you wouldn’t sign me up for a lot of trans porno sites I might just give you it.
Also “don’t have pubmed”, this is profound fuckwittery. Pubmed is free on the web, the individual papers and journals linked to in pubmed might not be free (quite a few are actually, I have occasional days of luck), but as has been mentioned the abstracts are.
And as Nutmeg says, there are enough academics and scientists in various fields right here on this thread that almost any paper you want is actually available if you were genuinely interested, Reasonable Fellow.
Which I know you’re not, but hey, that’s part of your schtick.
Louis
Awww, how adorable! It thinks it’s human!
Dance for the humans, little troll, dance.
Nutmeg? NUTMEG? Nightjar I mean!
Of for fuck’s sake, senile at 37.
Louis
Oh wait. Pity Riposte. Ding
Do you want to talk about the first amendment, make a new account, or tell us your credentials? If you do you get the full list and a free icecream!
Not for very much longer, girl.
Wow, projection much?
I don’t think so. I’ve read the abstracts, and they don’t seem to have any bearing on my argument. None of them were free.
There’s always a steady trickle (or perhaps that should be “ooze”) of trolls like the current one, like little boyscouts getting their “I posted on Pharyngula” badge to flourish around places like the slimepit. And of course many of them often adopt indefensible arguments that actually hurt people, just for the lulz. Thereby loudly proclaiming to any and all who happen to be reading that they really are the shitty arse-effluvia that they think they’re only pretending to be.
So yes, putrescent trolls do get a reaction – and often congratulate themselves on doing so – without apparently realising that their performance itself genuinely merits the revulsion of decent human beings.
Wearing the troll-mask makes you a real troll, just as deliberately seeking to harm people for your amusement makes you a real piece of shit.
Shit speckled troll, just because trolls like you engage in this kind of behavior does not mean that most of us do. Most of us do try to act in an ethical manner.
There was once an unreasonable fellow
Who thought hir cranium was not hollow.
To reason ze tried,
But from zie reason shied,
And all hir flowers of rhetoric went fallow.
A reasonable human being would understand that using transsexual people’s bodies as cheap ‘shock/disgust’ images to freak out bigoted CIS hetero folks like yourself is yet another marginalizing and dehumanizing behavior. So is your implication that any of us, CIS or not, would do that.
Yes yes the minds of trans people have no relevance to this discussion! None at all! Because this isn’t about transpeople, this is about you and your penis (metaphorically speaking). Your issues concerning power and lack of control.
Reasonable Fellow,
If you’re afraid of trans porn, just create a brand new free email account with hotmail or gmail or whoever and then someone can send you the links.
More than that, people have linked you to Natalie Reed’s blog where she has explained many of these matters (with arguments and links IIRC), really, the hurdles you have to get over to inform yourself are not very high. I wonder why you are not doing it…
Louis
He was talking to the turds in his pocket when he said that.
Yeah, right.
What’s that you say, little untermench?
BRB folks, this could take a while.
@Louis
Studies show that people do actively avoid information they think will be damaging to a crucial world view.
Are you reading the abstracts or the titles? The abstract is a summary paragraph that usually includes the conclusion of the study within it. An abstract is going to say a great deal more than that.
Also, yeah “transexual males” are indeed “males” and the use of that term is being used by the scientific community. So, there isn’t even disagreement there among different fields of study and what a great deal of people (with more knowledge on the subject than you) are saying.
So, what on this green earth is your problem?
says the monster who understands why some transgendered women gets murdered.
Janine:
See? Not human.
unreasonable fellow;
Considering your summation of the Natalie Reed link is “some crap about chickens”, and that you read those abstracts and the only thing you learned from them is that “they were studies into the brains of transexual males”, I’m certainly not impressed by your reading comprehension skills.
Reasonable Fellow,
I hate to note that the benefit of any doubt for you has been lost, I don’t believe you have read the abstracts. Even if you’ve looked at them I don’t believe you have the wit or willingness to read them for comprehension.
You’ve been given plenty of opportunity to engage in a reasonable discussion and refused to do so. Sorry if you don’t like the abuse that comes along with that, but frankly, you’ve acted like you have neither comprehension nor empathy, and you expect people not to bash you for that?
Believe me when I say reality doesn’t accord to your opinions.
Louis
Yes, I was gonna suggest that. If the troll is actually interested in learning about trans people, go read Natalie’s blog …
considering people are upset about what they believe is unethical behavior on your part towards a group…why would you doubt it?
I see this a lot and it greatly amuses me. Horrible people hating the idea that others are not like them. I think it’s a source of some of the hippy bashing in Skepticism. Because you know, if they aren’t somehow deluded or selfish in some way, or anything like that; that would mean that they actually are decent and have ethics and people like you are just failures.
It’s a common thing with teenage nihilist bullshit I’ve seen; it’s unacceptable to find that people agree on the lack of intrinsic meaning to the universe but are still decent and still have ethics…because that means that you’re not ‘right’ you’re just pathetic.
Sorry troll, Gotham doesn’t burn tonight
Ing, #147,
Oh *I* know that! I don’t think Reasonable Fellow does. ;-)
My “I wonder why you…” was a tell, it’s obvious this person is trolling for kicks. My wondering refers to his trolling. He’s not an honest interlocutor.
Louis
In this case, I suspect the information commits hara kiri rather than go live in rancid assflap’s brain.
@Louis
Of course he doesn’t know. That information is dangerous.
Willful ignorance
A reasonable fellow
Not learning today
This has been a troll-inspired haiku.
People won’t fit in those nice little slots he’s made for them, but by Jove, he’ll make them fit.
I’m just guessing.
Like I said, control issues
*smokes Freud Brand Cigar*
Is anyone checking the slimepit to see if recumbent felcher is posting progress reports? It sure looks like he’s an away team on assignment.
Its actually because I don’t believe you’re an ethical human being Ing based on your behaviour and posts.
Mmmmmmm that’s a good quality smokey penis flavor *puff puff puff*
Oh dear. You‘re the one here who is into trollish behaviour, not me.
Rubber and glue. Yep, twelve.
I’m sure you’ll gladly cite which ones right?
Which ones show a lack of ethics?
It can’t be name calling, you did that…and I only did it after you made it clear you’re just trolling.
It can’t be rudeness, since yeah you.
So what is it? What sin have I committed? Cite them. Please, act as my accuser. I fucking dare you.
says the monster who understands why transgendered women deserves to be murdered.
We already have a jury of my peers! Please, make the case against me. I honestly, want to hear your argument. Make it.
I dare you, give me your best shot
Oh, Ing. I just got the bloodstains out of the carpet after last week.
*sigh*
Okaaaaay then.
Oh, Ing. I just got the bloodstains out of the carpet after last week.
hmmm?
Ing,
I for one think you are a terrible person and will do so until your cheque clears!
;-)
Louis
Josh:
Eeuuw, no. I won’t stop you from checking, but I’m not poking around in there. Rorschach said he took a look around the pit’s new digs and said it was bad. Really bad.
Jury of your peers hahahah.
@drbunson
Are you referring to the dripping from all the blood that is allegedly on my hands. Because I’d like to point out that that is only alleged blood on the carpet
Incidentally, what’s the longest single thread we’ve ever managed?
Are we close?
Louis
I’m waiting.
Oh come on. You don’t need pubmed to read this, or any other of Natalie Reed’s Essential Reading posts. It’s not difficult, though if you aren’t up to downloading pubmed it might make your head asplode.
Note what she says towards the end of this article:
But you weren’t here to learn anything in the first place, were you?
Reasonable Fellow,
Oh you don’t agree we’re peers? Well, pal, everyone’s liberally pissing on you.
Perhaps you meant a different sort of peer.
Louis
drbunson
Ing, really. Tsk.
Louis:
It used to be Crackergate, but I think Egate surpassed that, even though PZ broke it into different threads in order to handle the load. Egate used to be 3D4k, but it ended up going over 5k.
This is a shark tank, I’m sure you can provide the evidence to show me as unethical that will make the ravenous school with their fickle allegiance and strict standards turn on me. Make your case.
*Louis I told you it’s in the mail*
Ing, you know that the shit speckled troll will not bother to make the case when it is so much easier to whine.
You are being just a little dishonest here.
‘giggle’
This is getting surreal – reasonable fellow seems to wildly gyrate between;
1. Tone trolling about how mean the Horde is.
2. Ignoring the scientific evidence presented to hir that proves that hir position makes no sense.
3. Claiming that this is ‘all about the chromosomes’.
4. Talking about secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics as though they exclusively determine gender.
5. Ignoring the evidence some more
6. ‘Just asking questions’.
7. Stating that he thinks that transexual/transgendered should be a category of gender identity to itself , so why do they need words like like ‘man’ or ‘woman’, but that he has nothing against the group per se.
8. Accusing trans* people of being delusional/in denial about their ‘true’ gender.
9. Making jokes about how the murder of trangendered people is to be expected given their ‘attitude’.
10. Making up poorly written transphobic songs.
11 . Deliberately triggering transgendered people, and acting as if they are being unreasonable for calling him on it.
12. Trying to body-shame PZ.
And then back again – rapidly oscillating between full on, openly transphobic arsehole glorying in hurting as many trans* people as possible, and whining pseudo-victim, all the while behaving as if xe can just chop and change and no one will be any the wiser.
It is as though xe isn’t aware that all we have to do is scroll back through the thread, and hir own words will expose hir hypocrisy, goalpost moving and outright lies.
Xe can’t possibly be so deluded as to actually believe that anyone will be convinced by hir arguments, such as they are. This is looking more and more like a bid at the world record for persistent hoggling, and nothing more.
@Unreasonable
I am giving you a gift. A chance to go off the defensive and freely onto the offensive.
Comeon Hit me
Gregory, the shit speckled troll has admitted that he is just here to troll.
We are just plating with the troll until the trapdoor appears.
Waiting
Please, please don’t throw me into the briar patch!
Thats a good thing though. Maybe he’ll lose some of the weight and live longer. Its unlikely, sure, but I try to help anyway that I can.
How does it feel to be the plaything of your betters, turdfondler?
Let me guess, he thinks if he makes out with a woman he finds attractive, and he then finds out she has a penis, which obviously makes him gay (everybody knows that)? That’s such a horrible thing that surely it is understandable that such women get killed?
Let’s play phobia bingo shall we?
I’m really glad I don’t date guys, the risk of running into one of those …
Sorry decent guys, it’s not your fault …
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiting.
why do you need a picture to come up for reasons? I thought my posts were enough evidence?
Hit Me With Your Best Shot
There are some varieties of cheese that I like.
I swear these trolls have a PZ-not-at-home detector, so they know they can come bork a thread or two to their heart’s content!
Ing, I think piece of shit is ignoring you. How rude.
I like Brie on biscuits.
@Janine
I was getting to that one! Rude!!!!
@Beatrice
Yes because that doesn’t make it look like a little chickenshit.
Really? You can’t even handle a confrontation on line? You can’t even give me a run for my money. Deer God with Halo Antlers, could you be more pathetic?
Actually it was just a sick joke.
New troll plz, this one’s squished.
Epic…Fail.
I would like to point out that reasonable shitstain has been posting here non-stop for 23 hours so far.
You might even think he was somewhat obsessed with Pharyngula at this point in the trolling.
how ethical of you!
Ok I showed you mine, now you show me yours! PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!
I’m interested to hear which part of the joke was the sick part.
The part that had icky trans* people in it? Or the murder part?
BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA….ha….ha…heh…he…..ho…
Damn actually that’s very sad and pitiful. Now I just feel bad.
I dunno, no hablo Espanol; I saw it on an American prison documentary about Mara Salvatrucha,and the caption for it was “dickhead”. Happy to stand corrected though because it’s the best swear word ever.
Hey, the shitstain was just joking. Everything is ok now, no one needs to get upset about trans women getting murdered, har har.
Jadzia: No, the gist of it was that if transgendered women have attitudes similar to the ones xe’s seen here (by which I can only assume xe means “not willing to put up with my bullshit”) then xe “understands why” they are murdered.
The implication being that the murder of any trans* person who objects to this kind of dehumanizing bullshit and dares to say so is ‘understandable’. Loathsome.
Maybe he’s been inconsistent because he’s been tag-teaming on his end. That would explain the 23 hours.
Don’t assume there is intelligence behind it – it’s just natural selection. When the anti-bodies are compromised the pathogens are free to run rampant.
Seriously what does one have to do to get verbally abused around here? My word this has to be a first! Someone on Pharyngula wondering why no one is being mean to them!? Isn’t that the sign of the 6tgh seal being broken? Do I hear trumpets?
The murder part.
Serious face on: Which is why his attitude is hurtful. A judge in Sweden used almost the same justification to throw out an attempted rape charge. It is not “equal”.
Oh, right. It’s only the uppity trans folk who deserve murdering. Glad we got that sorted out.
@Reasonablefellow
Your evidence please? Quotes or links would suffice.
You have to ask nicely.
The trans* part is just deluded, duh.
@Tis
Clearly not as that hasn’t been working.
Take note of Ing’s #212, unreasoning clod. That is what your perpetuates.
Y’see, nasty troll doesn’t *actually* condone the murder of transpeople, nooo, only their dehumanizing… So why all the hate?
/sarcasm
I know, I saw that, it’s fucking horrible. Jebus, just you bringing it up again is making me tear up a little.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
And then
HAHAHAHAHAHA
The uppity trans person
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Got murdered.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That’s SO FUNNY!
Wait….I don’t get it.
Louis
P.S. Night all, I am going to have to leave you to play with our new chum. Please don’t hurt him too much, remember he is still a person. Probably. Well, he self identifies as a person and thus I feel charitable enough to take him at his word even though I firmly believe him to be delusional. Hey, but that’s just, like, my opinion and stuff.
I’m sorry, Ing. I thought you were asking what you had to do to get The Horde to verbally abuse you. My bad.
Jadzia626, here is the shit speckled troll’s idea of a sick joke. This is the reason why I claim that he understands why transgendered woman gets murdered.
I cannot stop laughing.
Tag-teaming! Yes, cyberCMDR, you must be right. But that means… there is more than one reasonable fellow.
I need to go and lie down for a moment until the nausea subsides.
RF either dropped the cog in his cognition, or is playing the fool.
RF, go JAQ-off someplace else.
Its almost midnight. Time really flies doesn’t it? Keep it up guys, we’ll smash the through the gender levels together with a mighty fist. I’ll be with you in spirit.
Gah, I accidentally referred to reasonable fellow as ‘he’ and ‘him’ at certain points in my last post. It was just a slip of the finger; I did not mean to assume what gender reasonable fellow identifies as.
—————————————————————-
@ Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain;
Oh, I know that there is a banhammer with ‘reasonable fellow’ engraved on it out there in teh intertoobs somewhere, probably approaching this thread even as we speak, but I still think that, even as a troll, reasonable fellow is trolling incompetently. When it is so easy to simply scroll back and see that xe is not even vaguely coherent, I must award hir nul points, with not even a half point for effort.
These trolls today – they have no pride anymore, no self respect…
—————————————————————-
@ reasonable fellow;
PZ’s body morphology is none of your concern, not that your supposed concern for his health is in any way genuine.
You tried to delegitimise PZ and his blog by taking a lazy swipe at his weight – a feeble silencing tactic. You can pretend all you want to the contrary, but you are fooling no one. We know your sad little bag of tricks. We have seen you ilk all too often before here. You doubtless imagine yourself witty and clever. You are neither.
No one here is impressed with your feeble flailings. We will just idly bat you around until PZ finds the time to banhammer you and your trolling antics into cyber oblivion once and for all.
Janine, sorry, but I think you linked to the wrong place.
Oh fuck. I have to fix this.
So that’s how many comments you made without actually telling me why I’m horrible?
I mean why bother even making that claim if you’re not going to follow through?
Jadzia626, this is the corrected link.
I’m glad you agree that you don’t have the right to be seen as a reasonable fellow.
Your ignorance and stupidity are noted.
Or rather, you had zero interest in having credibility.
You’ve gone from zero to negative.
Your acknowledgement of trolling is noted.
@Reasonablefellow
So to recap you mock people for their weight and make jokes about trans people being killed and generally are disrespectful to them and intellectually lazy and intentionally trolling enjoying upsetting people for no good reason.
Ok you’re turn!
Hm. Pretty sure he identified as a man.
Here.
Again with that “we” thing…
Oh, fuck, another 200+ comments to read?!
Bah.
Lochi – London Acid City
That is all.
@ Gregory:
IKR? “In my time, we used to have self-respecting trolls, yes we did! Trolls who crafted their own insults themselves instead of all this lazy copy-pasting nowadays, grmbl… Now get off my cyber-lawn, punk!”
Then suddenly after 24 hours the time suddenly becomes important!
FTFY
Well I guess I’m acquitted due to lack of evidence then!
Ok, you take genuine pleasure in bullying other people and attempting to silence their opinion. Its as laughable as it is obvious. You only do this in a safe area, cordoned off from the rest of the world. In real life people would just tell you to shut the fuck up and you’re painfully aware of it.
Ok enough about you now, what about me?
Also links and citation.
Classic coward bully behavior if you ask me, and you did!
You pathetic liar.
In the past 1000 comments on this thread, you have repeatedly stated that trans people are deluding themselves.
You do know that when you put something on the internet, we can go back and read what you wrote last night and this morning?
reasonable fellow,
The instructions are that you should say positive things when you look at yourself in the mirror. And there is really no need to write them down.
I assure you I am like this in meat space too. Unless you can prove otherwise of course.
I mean that’s it? I was mean to you? Only after you made it clear you were just trolling with your tantrum?
That’s not much is it? I mean if you’re going to call me a cocksucker at least make sure there is not a cock currently in your own mouth. And I have the benefit of actually reading links and not shitting on people.
links and citation.
You’re not making a good case.
AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA.
Not even close.
Really, do you understand what words mean, “reasonable” fellow?
I can imagine it…
unreasonable troll #241:
Oh, what a surprise, the flounce didn’t take! He (or they? I did note the “we” too) must really like it here. Reveling in the attention, probly. There must not be many pleasures in their existence…
I mean really that’s your evidence that I’m unethical? Cause I’m mean to you because you’re trolling. That’s weak. I think I’ll take my chances with the jury.
Oh btw, you didn’t ONCE answer one of my posts that wasn’t mocking you pointing out that your biology is wrong. So there’s that.
as for cowardly, “I’m afraid you might send me porn rather than the links you’re offering”? Yeah that’s not defensive.
says the monster who tells a “sick joke” about transgendered women getting murdered.
Shit speckled troll, you are clearly over matched.
Well now you’re just contradicting yourself? Am I coward only acting up on the net or am I an utter bitch?
Your evidence is weak. Why it’s almost as if you were just trying to bully!
Objection: speculation. The prosecution has presented no evidence for its case.
I think that’s a pretty good equivalent for the way it’s used, yes. I just thought it’s a fun fact that the literal meaning is arse-hair, which is why we can use it as non-gendered.
Remember, little 24-hour flu virus, wearing the troll-mask makes you a real troll just as deliberately seeking to harm people for your amusement makes you a real piece of shit.
Oh, fucking bullshit. Nobody attempted to silence your opinion, it was just pointed out to you that your opinion is FUCKING WRONG and FUCKING HARMFUL, and you don’t get to accuse people of ‘bullying’ after the things you’ve said here. Count 1: NOT GUILTY.
Imagination is delusion. Reality is third party evidence. Why do you keep showing your self to be a delusional fool? We can only point and laugh at your idiocy. Shutting the fuck up is only way to save face…
Ing:
Oh darn. Here I was, all set to say “Hey, Ing! Go douche your ass out with habaneros, it might assist your brain function.”
Turns out you’re an innocent, decent human being. Damn.
@ Nightjar;
Oh, that’s OK then. Thanks for the link.
——————————————————————-
@ irenedelse;
They just don’t make trolls like they used to when I was a nipper anymore…
‘Course, I blame the hunting ban. These days, if you go out to hunt trolls like my pappy used to when I was a lad – with a rifle/shotgun/spear/frozen haddock/clue-by-4 – some whining troll’s rights activist will go on and on at you about how darn mean you are being, and how very, very hard it is to be a man in a world where teh wimmins can say ‘guys, don’t do that’ without being thrown into an asylum for ‘moral insanity’ and such, and where you can’t even be a transphobic bigot without people demanding that you read stuff and actually make some effort to be minimally informed on the topic…
But hunting kept the trolls strong, sharp and alert. These lazy modern trolls with no bridge to call their own, with their copy and paste screeds and inability to understand what ad hominem means… it is just sad to see a species go downhill like that…
Hey dipshit. This isn’t judge judy.
oh btw, Reasonable Fellow
Ingdamnit at Gmail.
I’ll be sure to tell anyone if I get porn spam.
You’re move
Dumb ass comments and vile threats are now the requisite to get top billing, I’m sure no-one will catch on…
Why not ignore theses idiots? Do they need to be provided a platform so easily?
What are you expecting?
Ing:
I find you guilty of being a Meany Pants™.
If you want to make an attack that is dependent upon pretending not to understand a simple metaphor, I would advise against it, but it is your call.
The problem with the strategy of ‘winning by acting like an idiot’ is that this is Earth.
unreasonable fellow(s):
This one obviously mastered the art of projection. Trash-talking people safely from behind their computer screen? Check. Accusing others to dehumanize them just after they (or their team member) threw in a few choice slurs directed at trans people? Check. Claiming to be a victim? Check, check and check.
Oh, that last bit was directed at the current troll, obviously, not fred.
Getting back to the pendejos, though, I should note that in some parts of the world it’s a term that can be either insulting or sometimes borderline-affectionate (depending on tone) for kids (and also depending on whose kids they are). So ymmv depending on circs.
well surely you’re fine now with giving your e-mail since I gave out mine and you could reciprocate any ‘unethical behavior’.
Surely you can do what I do because as you said, I’m cowardly.
Go ahead, I’ll send a confirmation reply to you. We’ll wait. You don’t even have to post it here, I’ll just forward your address to whoever has an important link that way no yahoos can bother you. I’ll put myself at more risk than you have to.
Would you rather have his shit stay unchallenged?
Yes, that’s right. You’re a *man* aren’t you liddle trolly-wolly. Sure, I am happy to call you a *man*, dearie, whatever you like …
/pats little troll on the head
Tsk. Silly troll thinking it’s human again.
Why, so we can continue this chat after i’m banned. I guess you really do like me?
You wanted articles right? to learn.
Trust me, you couldn’t afford it.
No. Now i’m not interested in learning a goddamn thing about this shitty retard subculture and i’ll be extra mean in real life. Or maybe not.
Hmmmm. England?
Nope. Wrong again. This is what happens when you try to act like you know how humans work. You don’t know, because you aren’t human. You’re just lying to yourself.
Interactions on the ‘net are part of real life, you see. Speaking up and being unafraid to use your voice when encountering vile, toxic, bigoted pisscakes like yourself is something decent human beings do. It’s called activism and consciousness raising. Again, this is a human activity, so I wouldn’t expect you to be aware of it.
I don’t keep my mouth shut when I run into asswipes such as yourself. They should be shamed at every turn.
So you’re too scared to put out your email to get direct articles that you claim you can’t read because you don’t trust people. I gave a olive branch there, yet you just seem to dance around the issue. You really don’t want to be educated at all do you. You honestly don’t care.
Yes, who is the bully?
Because that’s how you identify?
Your lie is noted.
Your paranoia is noted.
Your lie is noted.
Your hypocrisy is so very much noted.
Because bigots never joke about killing those that they’re bigoted against?
Yes…you aren’t bigoted at all. Trans are just a ‘shitty retarded subculture’.
I notice your grammar is degrading: you mad bro?
SIWOTI syndrome is an irresistible force.
My goodness. Never have I been so eager for PZ to get to a computer as I am with this medusa-headed troll. It is excruciating to watch the dishonest idiocy continue to degenerate and go flying off the rails.
My hat’s off to the horde though.
Also, thank you to ibbica! Troll learned nothing, but I sure did!
I’m out for now. Hope unreasonable fuckwit one day experiences exposure to his own toxicity.
The answer is easy. The shit speckled troll has shown actions and words that goes along with actions against transgendered people. In fact, a couple of lurkers spoke up to say that his words had a triggering effect on them. There has to be more who also had them but has not spoken up.
We feed the trolls because it is but one small way of showing that their actions will not be tolerated. Also, lurkers that do speak up usually point out that they are happy to see us acting in this way.
It may not be a huge action that will change society for the better but it actually does seem to help out some people.
Also, in my case, sometimes I enjoy taking the piss out of people who so clearly deserve it. That is, when I am not feeling too frustrated to get involved.
But thank you for your concern. I will print it out and place it in the proper receptacle.
how interesting
a) Why won’t you teach me
here are some links
b) I can’t read the links
We’ll send you the articles directly, what’s your email
c) I can’t give it to you, you’ll abuse it
here’s my email, just email me and I’ll reply back with them
d) I’m not interested now.
And that everyone is how you do the coward waltz
@ opposablethumbs:
Fascinating, this. A bit like “les gosses” in French: if you’re from France, it’s a familiar term for kids, but if you’re from Québec, it’s slang for testicles!
Just highlighting that again for anyone who missed it.
Ah, so it’s not because you can’t read those papers on pubmed.
So it’s not because you’re afraid of being sent porn.
It really is because you enjoy being a bigot. Thanks for making that clear.
Hey, Sphex! It’s good to see you posting again.
My hat’s off to the horde too, especially Ing! Good job hunting the lying troll down to his (their?) last hiding corner and not allowing them to wriggle out of it!
Ing. Its iwontreadthis420 at gmail dot com.
@ jacklewis;
Ignoring the offensively discriminatory and toxic rhetoric of bigots like reasonable fellow won’t make them or their prejudice just magically disappear. They will take silence as a concession of defeat, declare victory and be further emboldened. They will be able to create a toxic environment that belittles and dehumanises the various target groups of their bile (trans* people today, but it could just as easily be homosexuals, women or ethnic minorities tomorrow) with no opposition, and all the while our silence will be painted as capitulation at best, and endorsement at worst.
We cannot allow the bigots to shape the discourse – ‘not feeding the trolls’ does nothing to counter the toxic effluvia they post, or the unwelcoming atmosphere toward their targets that it creates.
Pharyngula has been created to be a safe place. A place where the targets of prejudice can know that bigotry doesn’t go unchallenged just so that we can avoid confrontation with idiots.
We aren’t providing the likes of reasonable fellow with a platform for his hatred; we are exposing his hypocrisy and lies and showing all the lurkers out there that antics like his don’t cut any ice here – that trans* people are welcome, but the ‘reasonable fellows’ that stink up the intertoobs are not.
Dudebro, like, you are just so edgy. Too cutting edge for me.
I wanna be just like you. But that would just make me delusional.
Someone’s upset *singsong*
Shithead thinks trans* community is just a “retarded subculture”. Quelle surprise.
reasonable fellow – since you feel sleighted in some way, I must apologize. It’s not every day, and my reasons will be clear. I apologize for the amount of time you’ve wasted here. I apologize that FTB didn’t put up with your shit. I apologize for calling your bullshit bullshit. I apologize for you never getting the upper-hand and resorting to baiting. I apologize for the massive chip on your shoulder. I apologize for taking you seriously when you’re a joke. I apologize for the life that you lead and the things you do. Really, you don’t deserve it. I apologize that I didn’t have the foresight to urge your father to have a vasectomy.
There is no equivalent to “I’ll pray for you” for atheists, but what I will do is keep donating to LGBT activism. I’ll keep standing up for their right to exist as equals and not others. I’ll keep advocating understanding and tolerance to combat the ignorance and violence. I will keep doing this until the day I die or until the world is rid of you and your ilk. Thank you for the reminder that what we’re fighting against matters to the safety and happiness of those we love.
And don’t think you get off by claiming trollish insincerity either. That’s the refuge of a coward. A cop-out for not getting your way. You’re not a troll, at least in the sense of you simply holding contrarian beliefs for the hell of it. You have plainly lost the argument. You have also lost in more ways than you can imagine. You’re a relic. The world is changing. Tides swell against your oppression. You are losing the war. Deal with it.
*blushing*
Thank you, Caine!
(I feel like a Pharyngula celebrity just called me out by name!)
How cute, aren’t we being mature.
Awesome sarcasm here. Can I join in.
Seriously thats it. I’ll send you a message.
Obviously not.
Definitely more than one soi-disant reasonable fellow out there. Vocabulary has shifted.
Hydra. Interesting how they reproduce but they can go and do it elsewhere.
Fucks sake ban me you pig faced asshole.
So – reasonable fellow is the one complaining about what would happen if this conversation happened in meatspace?
I think it might be useful at this point to not direct conversation AT him, because I’m pretty sure that will frustrate the hell out of him.
However, if anyone wants to bankroll a boxing match between he and I (or another willing person), we could sell tickets and donate the proceeds to charity.
You really made a new e-mail account for this?
Fuck I even gave out my real one. How cowardly are you? Also why should I even bother? I thought you didn’t care.
You’re sentences are getting shorter, choppier, and grammar is getting worse: you seem to be typing mad. What’s wrong?
It’s amusing how well you describe yourself.
Yes, you are.
Why are you talking to yourself?
Your ableism and assholishness bigotry are noted.
reasonable fellow:
In response to my previous question, I’m going to have to go for the “one of those narcissistic little manchildren, so obsessed with his own emotions, that he genuinely believes himself to be the wronged party” option. He laughs about women being murdered, and yet regards himself as a tragic hero, all because people say rude things about him. The lack of
self awareness is absolutely breathtaking.
It’s often the case that when stupid and nasty people attempt to be spiteful, they use the insults that would hurt them the most. Given the erudite charm he has shown here, I expect our “reasonable fellow” is very used to being told to fuck off.
And NO that was not a threat!!
(Just reread that and realized it could be taken wrong!!!)
/panic
Poor thingy is getting tired, can’t keep up any more, but can’t leave all by himself either.
Oh yes! Desperate are we to get an exit that doesn’t require you to actually leave on your own free will are we? Can’t actually let someone else have the last word, we just have to be banned, then we can whine about how our awesome zinger is blocked!
Isn’t this pathetic? Can’t win, can’t retreat, just waiting for mods to escort you out.
You know what, PZ. Please don’t ban him. Let him have to walk away on his own.
Love the nym addition.
Signed, not the droid you’re looking for. ;p
Sphex, I missed you. Your clever, pointed posts are always more than welcome. :)
^ Your problem. (Or at least one of your problems.) You refuse to learn about anything, to open your mind to possibilities of existence, or thought that your small mind simply cannot conceive of. So you demonize people who are already under attack from much of the rest of society simply for existing.
My real email is for important stuff, not being lectured by a 40+ lesbian or being hectored by the rest of the fuck-wits on this forum.
Deluded, not real and shitty. What is so wrong with you that you need to have a lower class of humanity that you can bully?
Oh, yeah, you are mistaken in calling Ing a bully. Taunting you does not make Ing a bully. Ing is not reveling in keeping a segment of the population suppressed.
But you are, shir speckled troll.
Typo Monster! I will catch you yet!
oh if anyone wants to send anything his way, I did get an e-mail from that account. Since he specifically said he won’t read it though I don’t know why you’d bother, but I’m sure if you don’t he’ll use that as an excuse for why we’re so mean and not interested blah blah blah.
My word, is your life really this sad that you have to spend all this time making yourself look childish?
Unreasonable troll: I am new to commenting here, so my fangs aren’t very sharp or shiny, but I have read this entire thread, and at this point I have an honest question for you (your favorite kind!):
What, in your own “mind”, is your goal here? What is the point of continuing to comment here? What are you hoping to accomplish?
Those who are arguing with you have been very clear about why they continue, in the face of your blatant disregard for facts, science, human decency: it is to remind readers that this *is* as safe a space as we can make it, and to educate those who are willing (and able) to be educated.
But you clearly feel safe nowhere, and are unwilling (and perhaps unable) to be educated. So please answer me this:
What is the point, for you, of doing what you are doing? What are you hoping to accomplish?
Looky here, the shit speckled troll does not much like lesbians. I sure as shit did not see that coming.
reasonable fellow @ #300
Someone REALLY needs his martyr complex fed, apparently. Or one of those Evil FTB Bullies™ has gone and forced somebody to keep reading/posting in this thread at gunpoint again.
Damn it, people. Knock it off!
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! Gad, how pathetic.
PZ, I’m with Ing. Let it stay and continue to get shredded.
There’s something about lesbians that you don’t like talking to them now is there?
Not sure I gave my gender…but it is interesting that you go for sexism and ageism in an attempt to make me feel bad
Oh btw, on that bullying thing: yes flail away.
Y U mad?
Translation, it is notification of porn/bigotry being posted at my favorite web sites, not minor things like actually learning something and becoming a less obnoxious human being….
I understood it to mean “pubic hair”. Either way works, though.
It sucks and i’m going to kill myself sooner or later.
he’s trying to feel big by bullying basically and derailing.
The problem is that people don’t let that fly here. This is why safe spaces are needed.
Sphex, just a word of advise. Here at Pharyngula, nothing is shiny. (Unless you mean it in the Firefly meaning.) It is “sniny”.
Just one of those quirks.
Using age as insult
Using lesbian as an insult
Fuckface is trying really hard to get himself banned, so that he wouldn’t have to slink away with his tail between his legs, like the coward he is.
Ing has got it right. PZ shouldn’t ban him, let the transphobic fuckface leave on his own.
Janine:
Yeah, that was a real surprise. *eyeroll*
Just how inadequate do you suppose our little non-human is, to be so very insecure and hateful?
Unfortunately idiots never shut-up. If we ignore them, we end up with a platform full of idiots. When PZ returns they will be gone, but in the meantime it would not be right to let their hurtful bigotry go unanswered.
I don’t particularly enjoy fighting trolls, but this has sparked a thread that has been very enlightening for me. It was great to have all the various permutations explained.
Unreasonable troll has provided an example of “How to be the biggest asshole possible”(TM) when it comes to transgender humans. I find it helpful to imagine RF as Archie Bunker.
*It is probably a good thing that I do not have the ability to send lightning bolts through the internet.
I’d advise you not to if you were serious. http://suicidehotlines.com/
I suspect you’re just using that as another barb, but if you’re serious there’s some help.
But if you are just trying to shame me or make me feel bad for you; you’ll fail at the first and I already started to pity you a while ago.
I truly am sorry for whatever is missing in your life or mind that makes you feel the need to make you so hatefilled and bitter.
“Weasonable fellow” have you considered ending all your posts in the #FTBullies hashtag. Then your slide into narcissistic paranoia will be complete.
I wonder how you call a group of trolls acting together? A cluster? A clump? A colony? The borg?
Or, yeah, a hydra, maybe. Thanks, earwig!
And this one learnt nothing, despite having several heads in their anatomy– at least that we can gather:
Nope. You’ve come unarmed to the battle of wits. Go play with yourself.
Hmmm… I’m not sure how that R became a W.
Archie reminds me of my grandfather. Both of them had their moments of empathy and decency.
A club
Like porn?
Your ageism and homophobia are noted. As is your hypocrisy, you hectoring fuckwit.
Caine, let us find out what the shit speckled troll thinks of bisexual women. Especially those married to men.
*snark*
You won’t find anyone here saying that’s okay, whether you mean it or not. On the off chance you do mean it, get help.
Ooh ooh ooh… Suicide threats as emotional blackmail score very highly on:
The Kookometer
oh my goodness!!!
I wonder if there is a “banned from the blog” badge of honor out there. So, he is doing such sort of rite of passage or something.
That would be SO CUTE.
@ Janine- Thanks! I’ve used “sniny” in previous posts, but since this particular post was directed at someone who *clearly* doesn’t understand the culture here, I thought it best to use “shiny”.
Plus, my own personal fangs are so unused I thought they wouldn’t merit that adjective yet… I was under the impression that you had to have actually used them to CHEW on something for them to acquire that particular quality, and this is one of my very first times playing with a real live troll!
@ Ing… I still don’t understand why. I really want to hear from Unreasonable’s own keyboard what his goal is.
gar. tag fail. I’m a noob. :)
Yeah, uppity trans women who want to define our own identity. What a nerve!
@Janine
Thanks for the link. Was a little too much to wade through when I got here. Read a couple hundred posts back, that was all.
He should get help either way actually. In all seriousness.
And that’s better than trying to educate yourself and improve yourself?
*screeeeeeching halt*
Is this a Mabus moment?
I think the wheels are coming off this little red trolley.
Trolling, trollollolloling, and . . . yes, trolling, respectively.
That was one of the most remarkable displays of patience I’ve ever seen from the Horde. Can I take RF’s posts to be a good textbook example of JAQ’ing?
I think most of you are aware by now, but I’m pretty sure RF never had any intention of engaging in meaningful dialogue. This was trolling for its own sake, as became clear once ibbica trounced his “…but biology!” argument and he steadfastly refused to answer any calls to expand upon his thoughts on biology in light of ibbica’s post. He was pretty convincing up to that point, though.
I’ll confess I held similar attitudes years ago, referring specifically to the opinion that the gender identity of trans folks is a purely psychological phenomenon. My attitudes and opinions changed very quickly in response to some of the actual science of gender identity penetrating the mainstream media (probably fMRI studies, though it’s been so long that I don’t remember clearly), and that was without the benefit of anything as clear and concise as ibbica’s post. After that post, any real “reasonable fellow” would have either changed his mind, or at least refrained from digging any deeper pending further reading.
Really, the last few comments have completely dashed any sort benefit of the doubt that he is being the least bit honest.
..or not?
Please.
Who knows what he actually thinks.
I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t exist, to say the least. Oh, and I’d be lying to myself, because my being married to a man proves there’s no such thing as a bisexual. If I was a for realz bisexual, I’d be a raging, uppity dyke, amirite?
FTR, little non-human, I’m a 54 year old woman, childfree, bisexual, married to man for 33 years. My last relationship with a woman lasted for over 10 years*, until a job opportunity necessitated a move out of state for her. We are still very close friends.
*Yep, poly, too, oh my!
I do not get satisfaction in hearing this. If you think any of us get satisfaction in that, you’re wrong. If you’re honestly in that position (given your record it’s hard to believe) then you’re not alone. Not a cliche at all, there are people you can reach out to.
I have no goal. I’m mentally ill probably.
Ing:
Agreed.
It must be very frustrating for someone like that to find someone like me, who picks a Gerund for a nyme, and tries not to give hints of gender or blah blah blah. Because he can’t just pick out something from the Rolodex of spite like “aha you’re fat!” and call it a day. no he has to flip that Rolodex turning it into a roulette wheel and pray he hits something close to the mark. Cause otherwise he looks as much like a unsauve dunce as a school boy fumbling to unhook a practice bra from the back of a chair. I can just hear him waving his fist, grinding his teeth; “damn it why won’t you let me hurt you via shaming you about your demographics! LET ME SHAME YOU DAMN IT!” It’s the unmistakeable sound of someone who suddenly realizes that if they try to fall back on the old insult standby of privilege they’re just going to bruise their arse.
@ hyperdeath- I think “Weasonable fellow” is lovely- it has a bit of “weasel” in it, and a bit of “cute widdle fellow” in it, and I think it suits this troll just fine.
@ Ing, Owlmirror… I know what he is *actually* doing. But I’d also be very curious to hear how he is justifying it to himself. I don’t think even the most egregious jerk wakes up and says “I’m gonna be a jerk today”! I think they think they’re defending “freedom”, or “Murrika” or teh menz, or… and that’s what I’d be curious to hear. Not that he’d be right, but I’d be curious to understand what HE (or they) think(s) is happening here. Or at least what he’d be willing to admit to. (not that there seems to be much shame on that end)
I know Unreasonable is on the way out, the hammer of Damocles hanging over his pointy little head, but still:
you take genuine pleasure in bullying other people and attempting to silence their opinion.
You bully people, and you hit down. Your being met with pushback on it (from people who are in the groups you bully) is not “bullying other people.” There are lots of people on this thread/blog who are not treated as you were–which means that your issues here is “you are mean to me even though I am just stating my opinion waaaaah.”
Its as laughable as it is obvious.
You were warned. You were given links. I did a lot of reading over here because am on a break and really did not find that much to laugh at–though I was cheering quite a few of them on at times.
You make jokes about people being murdered.
You only do this in a safe area, cordoned off from the rest of the world.
You came in; I came in. It takes very little to come in and post. Anybody who scrolls down the thread can see it. Tell me again how this space is “cordoned off.”
As for “safe” — well, yes, the people here try to make it safe for marginalized groups.
In real life people would just tell you to shut the fuck up and you’re painfully aware of it.
This is real life: I am a real person and you, despite strong evidence to the contrary, are a real person. Everybody else here posting is real. Your words have meaning here, and you caused pain. It’s real. (Though I remember you don’t think that words on the internet are real unless they’re aimed at you).
So it’s really all about you, innit?
Lots of people have and would told me to shut the fuck up–that proves what exactly? People with privilege are always trying to get people who critique that privilege to shut the fuck up. The only thing that would worry me is if anyone like you approved of what I say and do. THAT would make me do some srs reassessment.
Bums you out that you cannot make the people posting here shut up, doesn’t it, Mr. I Am All About the Control and Being Able to Push Other People Around.
unreasonable club of trolls:
Then, obviously, the first thing to do is stop posting, and get yourself to a therapist.
… and you think you’ll get an honest answer why again?
No, if you’re insulting me i’m going to insult you back. Has nothing to do with your demographic. Its not even personal.
Seek professional help if you need it, shit speckled troll. But I will not show pity for you. I have no way of knowing what is real and what is a fact for you.
Well, except for your hatred of segments of the population.
Some people are mean just for the fun of it. not saying that’s why he’s doing it but not all graffiti people are artists…some just want to jack up someone elses shit.
Oh stop that. no one is buying that. I note your level of discourse has decreased sharply, so you seemed quite on the ball before.
RF
Please seek professional assistance if you are at all serious.
Sleeping would also be a very good idea.
Have you considered getting an actual diagnosis, and maybe a prescription?
Your degrading grammar and nastiness indicate otherwise. Also your attempt to shame me with 40 year old lesbian and PZ with being fat.
So yes, you are looking for cheap shots. Sorry, you’re safety net has been removed.
Well, if you’re playing phobia bingo, you may as well go for a full board …
Wrong, shit stained troll. You were insulting from your first fucking post.
Ok. My fangs remain untested. Pure 100% unadulterated trolling.
Owlmirror, my apologies. That you and Ing called it so easily without asking is more proof that I’m inexperienced in dealing with trolls.
Again, I came to Pharyngula and I learned something! :)
reasonable fellow, if you’re in the UK it’s nearly 1 am and you’d do everyone a favour if you went to get a good night’s sleep.
If you need someone to talk to you and you are feeling the way you say you are, the last thing you need is more snark. You can always talk to these people. They will listen to you as long as you like. They also have drop-in centres and email. And they won’t be judgmental.
Your idea of what is an insult is telling.
Your lies are noted.
Samaritans aren’t very good in my experience. Just some guy saying “yes”, “uh-huh” at you a whole lot. One hung up on me lmao.
He’s pity whoring now. How wonderful. No I don’t believe him for a second, but on the off chance I wouldn’t want him to off himself and think he should get help either way. He is just trying to deflect now by playing the “poor poor me” card.
Hey doesn’t he really sound different from his first couple of posts?
This has gotten to the point that is it like watching an earthworm on a sidewalk after a shower.
I’m not pity whoring. Just telling you the truth.
Were you trolling them?
You troll the Samaritans too?
Your continued failure at your deluded self-representation as a human being is noted.
I kept asking the guy what his religion was.
Ing:
Weasonable already stated it, it’s all about secondary sex characteristics. That is *all* to the fuckweasel, it’s the only thing that matters. Fuckweasel is more than a little lost without them to go by, especially as they seem to be a major fan of negging.
Please. You’ll have to try better than that.
Still not funny.
I thought it was relevant ok, and I wasn’t in a good state of mind.
You’ve given no basis for believing anything you say at all. None. Zero.
So the answer is yes.
Keep acting like yanking the chain makes you look good. I’m sure some people here would take exception to your use of “I’m probably mentally ill” as an excuse for your, up till now very coherent and unambiguous vileness.
Pity Whoring.
That won’t work. Try something else from your playbook.
I am though, and I like to be able to just fucking say it without people believing me.
Pathetic. Even tag-teaming this troll-collective barely rises to the level of mild irritation.
BTW, what does one call the opposite of sock-puppeting?
Why, yes. Yes, he does. As earwig and CyberCMDR suggested, I think we’re dealing with a Hydra. (I said Medusa even though I meant Hydra- my greek mythology is rusty.)
“Tag Team Trolling… because you can’t be awful enough on your own!”
So; you were Just Asking Questions.
Lovely.
Yeah I was, just asking questions. Its a serious compulsion.
Please, don’t insult me.
Pity Whoring. You’re trying to make everyone look bad for beating up on the poor poor *sniffle* ill person…a persona that suddenly arose after thousands of messages of you acting like a smug teenage asshole. You’re putting on a show and no one is buying it. You’re free to leave if you’re done playing with us, but I’m just telling you that card won’t work.
Ing:
Not to me. It’s standard shifting, an attempt to manipulate by changing tactics. When one tactic doesn’t work, try another…the Horde is noted for its compassion, so now we’re onto the suicide/mentally ill tactic*, even though previously there was an attempt to harm by classifying transpeople as subhuman and retarded.
*I think this is a tactic, however, once again, if it’s true, get help.
That was just on my mind, as it turns out. I’m mentally ill, and I don’t feel any need to be that demeaning to anyone but myself.
I do alright these days, though. Better and better over the past two years.
You know co-opting the mentally ill as a joke and/or pity whore shield is a pretty shitty thing to do.
People can be mentally ill and still be decent human beings. That’s people, though. You, on the other hand, would fail either way.
I’m not trying that. Insult me, tell me to kill myself… We could talk about trans issues some more I suppose.
Then try here. Even if you’re not suicidal they will listen. They will direct you to more local resources for you if you’re not in a metro area for face to face help.
I don’t know if you’re just attention seeking right now or what, but continuing to talk as if you were seriously mentally ill with suicidal language is grounds to get the authorities involved. I’d suggest that PZ use your IP address and call them for you.
@Chiptunist.
Say what now?
No one is telling you to kill yourself. I’m telling you that you’re shit if you’re trying to play that card. Utter shit. No one is buying it and it’s only out of compassion that no one wants to risk being wrong no matter how slight the odds that people are sending you help even though it’s clear you’re taking the piss.
As the late Stephen Jay Gould said, our language is usually about “either/or”, but reality is more complex. He used colony animals and some conjoined twins (the ones with fused brains do not survive pregnancy, but they exist as intermediary forms beween one/two) as examples, but gender identity is another example.
Language is the map, but reality is the terrain. Learn and adapt.
Everyone he just sent me an e-mail asking for the articles he previously eschewed. You can send them to iwontreadthis420 at gmail.
If you want to waste your time that is.
Yes, the poor thing has admitted being a danger to itself.
Can’t you get an IP from an e-mail? Just thinking aloud.
@Ing
Oh, sorry. You had said:
And I was agreeing that, yes, as someone with a diagnosed mental illness, I do take exception to the troll’s use of that tactic.
And when offered answers, you ignore them — is that a compulsion too?
@chiptuneist
Ah sorry for the misunderstanding.
I’m not taking the piss.
No one is buying your pity game. No one. But if you keep it up you’re going to force us to have to call someone to check in based on your IP. I’m sure whoever they send will be just delighted to have their time wasted.
He couldn’t answer, because its against their rules. I secretly wanted him to hang up.
@Ing
No problem, I can see how that might have been confusing.
So you abuse volunteers and tie up the phone lines for people who honestly need help.
You fucking make me sick.
Yeah no one believes you’re “it’s a compulsion” story. You’re a fucking troll and a pathetic excuse for a human being.
See, co-opting the genuine plight of the mentally ill (*if* that is what you are doing) is a genuinely shitty thing to do (not out of line with your track record to date). Which is why we are not letting you get away with it. Again, it’s not all about you, cupcake – it’s for the lurkers.
Given the shitty hand you just dealt anyone with genuine mental health issues who might be reading this thread, giving out resources for support is our way of continuing to hold a safe space here, in spite of your shitty and pathetic efforts to undermine it.
If you are serious, get help.
If you are joking, GET HELP.
This has taken an ugly turn. If this person truly has a mental problem, I really do not want to do any harm to this person and want him to seek help.
It it does seem to be more likely that his is just trying to get even more reactions, just as he has since he shown up yesterday.
Either, it would in his best interest to go away.
@unreasonable dude
Yeah yeah, we all saw your bait. No, I won’t give you that satisfaction.
Why? You’re clueless about the subject …
Do your homework first. It has been assigned.
I’m despicable, but I honestly couldn’t help myself. Plus I wouldn’t have rang them if I wasn’t thinking about it.
Oh, I believe he’s sick, alright, just not in the way he’s trying to convince us.
Really, trying to use mental illness as a cover for something much more disturbing …
Btw bravo on your original trolling failing so utterly and epically. Nice of you to show yourself when cornered.
(And presumably you “secretly want” to be banned from Pharyngula?)
What magical force prevented you from simply hanging up?
The S/N in this thread is increasingly thin.
Good entertainment though wasn’t it? I thought so anyway.
Admit it you liked having a hate figure as well.
Funny how the unethical people here backed off from invectives on the slightest chance that a troll might actually have a mental illness.
Because you find being deliberately cruel and dishonest to be entertaining?
I predict a banning is imminent, seeing as there is a new Thread now.
@Janine:
Because we’re bullies. On the other hand “reasonable fellow” is being unfairly silenced by being allowed to post over and over again, and by having his claim of mental illness respected.
New tactic now? Sorry but you won’t come off looking good here. You failed. You wasted a lot of your own time while I cornered you while watching web videos and waiting for laundry to dry. You lost, everyone sees how pathetic you are. bye bye. game over
And back to trolling.
Shit speckled troll, we hardly need a person to adopt the persona of Emanuel Goldstein. There are enough real world concerns to need a person who enjoys acting like a troll.
Fuck off.
Please take your issues to the local AA* group RF. You have taken the most important step, admitting that you have a problem. The horde cannot aid you any further in your quest for troll glory.
*assholes anonymous
(though I’m sure the other AA could have significant overlap.)
BTW, you provided a wonderful, linkable example to use for future people like you. A perfect stage by stage transformation of tactics so everyone who is less experienced and more naive can see the exact pattern the next time someone tries your tactics.
Thank you for making us stronger.
I couldn’t look any worse.
Entertainment? Bleh. One and a half stars.
No one will be surprised to learn that “reasonable fellow” has met the ineluctable banhammer of doom.
The sleeping giant awakens and brushes an ant off his arm.
Oh, for fuck’s sake. (Or is that sake, the rice wine?) I leave here with my wife to celebrate the sale of my VW Cabrio (sale dollars funding a Wing Night Out, as it were), and the whole fucking discussion hasn’t moved an angstrom? RF is still trolling? Oh, my! Someone find me a fainting couch!
reasonable fellow, you’re nothing more than a second-rate troll. I’ve seen better. Way better. I’m completely drunk now (like I was last night), and I could take you in an intellectual duel. You’ve proven to be tedious, boring, and completely impervious to actual, y’know, facts. Which really just means you’re boring as fuck.
Also, I note you don’t know how to use apostrophes. Which really just points to either mental laziness, or dyslexia. But I suspect from your demonstrated reasoning abilities, it’s just mental laziness.
Fuck this.
reasonable fellow, you’re an ass. You’ve been given every opportunity to respond in a scientific manner, but the best you can muster is, “If it were up to me…” as if your imperial wisdom were all that was required.
It’d be a lot more effective if you weren’t demonstrably wrong, and demonstrably stupid. But then, I guess the same might be said for many trolls.
Science and knowledge are firmly behind those of us who claim gender identity is up to those who wish identity. It has nothing to do with the basic humanity of the situation (which pretty much concludes the same thing). This is entirely based on science, not on desirable outcome. So in the most basic assessment, you’re wrong. In the most fuckwitted way, you are wrong.
And nothing you’ve presented has been in-line with a defense of your wrongness.
So please. Fuck right the fuck off.
You don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt any more. I really tried to imagine you as just another asshole, one who might actually want to learn from their failed engagements. But no. You’ve merely demonstrated yourself to be another of those self-deluded idiots who hold themselves in underserved high self-esteem, like the guy my mom dated once who bragged about Godfathers Pizza requiring tough exams, that once failed, required you to take them again, until you passed, and were then finally qualified to deliver pizza.
Again, I was wrong with you. You haven’t even earned pity. At most, you deserved a casual dismissal, pending further Godfather Pizza tests, which might vindicate you as a useful human being.
And with that, I’m off to drink beer with good friends. It’s been genuinely educational on multiple levels, in spite of the persistent unpleasantness. Be back soon, have a good day/night/whatever everyone!
@PZ
Oh, good!
This chew toy lasted longer than usual …
So for reference everyone who complains about being mean to people who are just uneducated and challenging the group thought. There you go. Smokescreen cleared. Class fucking dismissed.
PZ:
Ah, hell. I was just in my “reading the riot act” mode, which I only get after several beers.
Now you spoil my fun.
Okay, granted RF was tedious, repetitious, impervious to facts, and generally boring, but still. There was some chew left. Honest!
It just wasn’t very good chew. No squeak!
What a relief!
Still, there are a bunch of heroes in here who have seriously earned some of the highest quality grog.
Thank you all- you are inspiring and educational. As well as wickedly funny.
No. You’re an example of someone who has been repeatedly, deliberately, and perversely wrong on the Internet. As all you’ve made are mistakes, you’re more like this than a “hate figure”.
chiptuneist:
What took you so long?
Oh! You mean meat-space friends. Go! Enjoy! That is a Pharyngula commandment.
As if I’m authorized to make such commandments. But pretend I am.
Though the latest chewtoy has met the banhammer, the question of the potential record-breaking length of this thread remains. Does anyone know what the record it?
PZ:
Did meet his doom already? And that spammy-smelling driveby Scientology-hater upstream?
Awe! I go out for a nice quiet dinner and come back to find everyone knee-deep in troll splatter. :(
unreasonable fellow;
Let’s assume you really are mentally ill and suicidal, and not just fishing for pity. If so, you need to get help, but it does not mean the Horde must tolerate your bullshit. Your state of mind is not an excuse for making degrading, hate-filled comments about other people. You are responsible for your actions, and when your actions are egregious we will call you on it. If you don’t enjoy the process, consider changing your actions.
reasonable fellow:
Really? You’re going to play the persecution card, coupled with the smug self-righteousness card? That’s generally reserved for born-again Christians, you know.
But whatever.
You want to present yourself as a sacrificial lamb, go right ahead. Nobody here is going to stop you from framing your situation as whatever you want. You want to pretend we hate you, rather than simply pity you? Feel free. You want to feel like you actually mean something to us? It’s all up to you, Chief. You want to pretend you’re anything other than an object of vaguely distasteful derision? Sure! Feel free to pretend whatever the fuck you want, Ace.
But really, you’re nothing more than a pathetic side-note, one that was particularly callous to others you claimed to support, one who was specifically impervious to rational thought and honest skepticism (in the real sense of the word).
So you get to make up whatever tale you wish, Ace! It’s your life, after all, and you get to be the protagonist.
Just don’t pretend you were actually on the side of reason and honesty. You’ve given that up today.
He never was. That’s what we showed. He sure looked so civil and reasonable before though didn’t he?
Oh btw, he wanted me to tell you all
Hey PZ, if you can trace his IP you should tell the authorities that he’s talking about killing himself
He keeps claiming he was arguing honestly. Yet he ignored all evidence and personal stories which did not agree with his precis. He also went from claiming that it was all about biology and then, when it was pointed out that biology showed he was full of shit, suddenly biology was only a minor part of it.
Dishonest git.
I am not making an internet diagnosis, but I think he could benefit by speaking with someone.
A helpline specifically for young people he may find more forthcoming than Samaritans is Papyrus. That’s assuming he’s young, which would jibe with the confusion, nihilism and transferred hate.
That doesn’t give him a free pass from the hateful and hurtful stuff directed to others, and maybe when he gets his head sorted he will be able to see that.
@earwig
Oh stop it. He was not suicidal or ‘compulsed’ to troll.
Guys,
Hate to sound like a newb, but where is the slimepit? Might be good to see if today’s discussion is under discussion.
irenedelse:
Actually, it’s a malevolence of trolls.
I read it all (except for the tl;dr anti-scientology rant). I will now go to bed and dream of trolls.
wow, I’m exhausted just from catching up on the thread. Epic.
Found it. Some mentions of this thread, with a pointer back to it.
and
Hey all you fuckers. Abbie Smith is a shit head.
The Slyme Pit seems to be the Anti-Pharyngula. Interesting view into that mindset.
cyberCMDR:
They’ve just moved to a new home at the Slyme Pit. It’s the first (second third fourth and fifth) result when you google those two words.
Not linking, for sanity’s sake.
At least one of them mentioned this RF shit on their newest incarnation of their “endless thread”.
Yeah, I mean, what cyberCMDR just said.
Fast!
Hotshoe,
Thanks, I had found it. Did a quick Ctrl-F on reasonable fellow to see if he was being discussed (see #455).
Didn’t read too much. For sanity’s sake.
Who, God-Pig?
Yeah, you totally meant to do that. Got it.
Dudebro fist
fbap!Trolling, trolling trolling — asshole!
You would troll people in real life?
This is a thing, now?
You don’t have the free will to not be an asshole?
LOL! Irony blindness!
MOAR irony blindness, slimepitizen!
Almost all of the biology in this thread is wrong. ibbica’s widely lauded review of the possible meanings of ‘biological sex’ unfortunately omitted the only actual biological definition of ‘sex’ (but was otherwise accurate). carlie’s wrong about gastropods. Ing, it’s just classic that you would cite deviantart for a biological argument, but those cartoons are of course anthropomorphized. Side-blotched lizards don’t have different ‘genders’. Think about it for a second. ‘Gender’ is cultural, no? There are three different male morphs in that population. They are all male. They exhibit what are referred to as ‘alternative reproductive tactics’, not ‘genders’. It’s in no way analogous. sheesh.
cyberCMDR quotes others:
Bwah?
Hatefest? Really?
What hate was spewed? What was offered was a defense of sexual self-identity. What RF offered was nothing less than nonsense. How is that a hatefest?
For fuck’s sake. If we were really hateful, RF would’ve offered an honest defense, and we would’ve hated on him. As it was, he offered nothing but bile, and we hated on him. How is that a hatefest, other than responding to hate with hate? Or, really, responding to hate with mild derision (as seems closer to the truth)?
I’m vaguely baffled.
Is this your area of expertise, Chas?
Got links?
ChasCPeterson:
And? What’ve you got, Chas? ibbica had the only scientifically-accurate argument that mattered here.
So, what’ve you got? Other than calling things “otherwise accurate” but wrong?
Oooops! I may have reactivated the zombie.
Random slympitter:
Yeah. Maybe their EEEEVIL RANTINGS make them treat OTHER PEOPLE like ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS!
Hi hogglers! /waves
Pathetic bravado bonding displays are for insecure macho redneck losers, didn’t your mama tell you?
ChasCPeterson:
I think the point wasn’t analogy (though the cartoons were simplistic). The point was, in relation to this thread, gender is not as binary as “penis==male, vagina==female” that was presented by our erstwhile troll.
From what I can tell, the biology presented in this thread wasn’t wrong, as you stated. At most, it was simplified. Which, in context, isn’t a bad thing.
@Nigel
It’s Chas. Forget about it. He can’t resist a chance to shit on some people. And he misses my intentional point to do so I’m sure like he always fucking does on this.
I think the important thing here is that everyone’s gender designation is about you and your comfort level.
I am so DONE with all of this shit. Reading this thread hurts my heart. Like, my chest literally aches right now. Just…how are there so many people who call themselves skeptics and yet fair to grasp this simple point: we are all human, and deserve to be treated as equals? HOW IS THIS SO HARD?
Fuck it. Going to bed–‘night all.
Chas,
It’s the plain-language world that transgendered people need to navigate and successfully find first-class social recognition within. More on that later when I have time, but let’s at least try to keep that at the forefront of mind.
I’ll suggest with some data that most people who use the word ‘male’ in plain English are referring to a compound idea: a male is one who has a penis and behaves like a {pussyhound or dutiful husband}.
Failure to meet either of these requirements is grounds for having one’s maleness challenged. Recall that receiving anal sex is grounds for being considered not-male.
I.e. as you point out “the original definition of ‘male (adj.)’ seems to have referenced some sort of ineffable qualium of the manly masculine macho man-ness of manly men,” and it still does; this concept is typically of a piece with having a penis. Since kids born with penises are raised to be macho men, the having of a penis and the aspiring to machoness are generally understood as inextricable.
So it’s not that the word points more at dangly bits than gender performance; it points at both, such that one is assumed incomplete without the other.
@Chas:
Holy shit you’re right, I did make a glaring omission! Thank you for pointing it out :)
Without further ado:
Genital sex! This one of course only applies to those species that actually have sexually dimorphic genitals – i.e. penis/vagina. In most of those cases it’s actually “penis/no penis”, which I trust you can see the potential problems with. Now again, there is no necessary requirement for outward appearance of the genitals to match any of the other ‘sexes’ mentioned waaaaay back there.
Also brings up an interesting point (well, interesting to me anyway): where does the rest of the reproductive system fit into all of this? The uterus and prostate gland aren’t gonads or genitals… ‘secretory organ sex’? Yipes, good luck with that one.
My bad for the omission. Hopefully that clears things up a bit.
This thread goes into the reference
bookslinks under Troll Takedown; a classic compendium of troll tactics from a truly sorry excuse for a human being.OMG, the density of bigoted trolls was high on this thread. Thanks for everyone who did their part.
One thing to Chas: fucking learn the concept of polysemy. (To be fair, a similar case could be made for “ad hominem”, but I’ve repeatedly explained why this might not be an analogous case).
Chas,
If the common English usage didn’t in part refer to gender performance, people wouldn’t expect to be understood when they talk about being more or less male.
To expand on the polysemy thing (this also goes well with what Wittgenstein called “family resemblances”, so in this case, “maleness” could be understood in terms of social role, macho stereotypes, genitalia, brain function and so forth, even extending to the concept of male and female plugs)
In language, words are usually not precisely defined as in academics. So in academia it is important terms be defined precisely, and that’s what happens. However every discipline is free to define the terms in their own way (for instance, linguistics has chosen to use the terms “masculine” and “feminine” in terms of distinguishing certain noun classes), and as we have seen, even biology has several different definitions. So Chas’ idea that other disciplines should create their own terms critically misses the point in how language works.
Now, academic definitions might feed into how a word is used in daily life, or it might not. Again, right or wrong is not ab absolute thing in language, it is always depending on the register/lect in question. So hitting the dictionary does not help, because usually dictionaries describe the academic language mostly. Urban Dictionary is not particularly well sourced, but might give you some ideas.
Ideally, you look at corpus studies and/or researchers who have studied how the words are used in colloquial language. Waving around a biology textbook will not help.
Oops, this should have been: In every day language….
Also not just imprecisely defined, but they might have different meanings (usually connected by family resemblance) in different contexts, which is what polysemy means.
@ Forbidden Snowflake #452:
“A malevolence of trolls”
http://wondermark.com/566/
Thanks, I love it :-)
@Chas:
No, the point of those cartoons from deviantArt wasn’t to provide an accurate equivalence, but to get people to think about gender roles and what is “natural”.
Chas, what was I wrong about with regard to gastropods?
Crepidula fornicata is such a classic example of sex being influenced by environment that it’s in pretty much every basic bio textbook.
And it also happens in other limpets.
And here’s a snail where the sex is influenced by patch composition and host morphology
And many are simultaneous hermaphrodites with behavior determining who acts as male and who acts as female.
How very typical of the PZ Myers lynch squad, rather than addressing the points you merely point out inflammatory language and decry the person as an idiot.
You think, maybe people are angry with you, hence the language? It’s not necessary, but it doesn’t invalidate his point either. I’ve come to expect both sides to pick out the more rabid of someones supporters, but I’ve only seen you do it, PZ.
No redaction of the name either I see, what a surprise.
Oh look Reasonablefellow is back
Or someone else who is close enough. It’s hilarious how you people defending and promoting harassment cry boo boo tears at the slightest bad word
Oh, I see it was Horace who was playing RF. No surprise there.
So, in other words, you either a flat out liar, or all you’ve read about this particular debate is this one thread or something.
Well, thanks for being an honest troll. Most of the time they don’t so easily admit to be an ignorant and/or lying asswipe.
simonbrown, kindly click here for the answer you seek: TZT
@ opposablethumbs:
Seconded!
@ simonbrown:
This is the correct thread to bring your complaint –> TZT.
simonbrown:
Pssst, there were pages of people having fun with the inflammatory language. Not too hot on reading comprehension, I see.
Why should PZ redact the name? The person who sent it signed it. I rather doubt they were ashamed of that nasty missive, or else they may have thought twice about sending it.
@ Caine,
Well since the email proved to be very embarassing to poor Phil, PZ should have protected him. I mean, when someone sends you threats, then your first duty is to make sure the poor fellow doesn’t get embarassed.
Don’t know why that didn’t occur to you.
Doesn’t PZ have a disclaimer that he will publish someone’s full details if he receives a threat from them? I mean, jaguars are a little far fetched, but then again, we only have the writer’s name and not a bunch of other details.
ॐ, #472:
Thanks. This is exactly what I was trying to say way upstream in response to reasonable fellow’s assertion that we shouldn’t use the terms male and female outside their accepted biological and social meaning.
The terms are used socially to refer to sets of behavior. We’ve tied those sets of behavior to specific anatomical features. This is unfortunate, because this conflates the sets of behaviors with the anatomical features. Thus reasonable fellow’s rather unreasonable and fairly sad confusion.
I just realized why I dislike the trans* labels. It’s because those labels anchor behavior to anatomy. It’s an acceptance of the primacy of the penis in determining someone’s expected behavior and role. They give legitimacy to the ridiculous social rules concerning boy-things and girl-things.
Fuck. That.
I lied when I said if it were up to me I’d have people choose their societal roles, and have other people respect their decision by using the pronouns of that role. What I’d far rather have is a society in which those roles didn’t exist, where the expectation of behavior wasn’t tied to anatomy. The continuum of behavior would remain. It’s the labeling that would disappear.
Unfortunately, that’s not likely to happen, at least any time in the foreseeable future. This leaves only one reasonable option: let people choose their roles, and respect that choice. Don’t use labels that draw attention to the fact that we have stupid societal expectations of behavior, and their choice is contrary to those expectations. After all, it is society that is wrong in the expectations, not the individual for their choice of behaviors.
Oh wait! Here it is!
Right in the sidebar.
You’re right, Dr. Audley, he does. It’s visible on the NatG site.
*Kicks the floor*
Audley, ya beat me and I missed it on this site!
Lyn M:
Not enough tea…yeah, that’s the ticket!
simonbrown:
And what point was that, again? That TF was invited to blog here, acted like the asshole he is, and was disinvited? You mean, that point?
Or the points that were just completely wrong, like the whole complete misunderstanding of what constitutes free thought? That was covered in the first few hundred responses.
So, what point was Phil Krstulich making, exactly? I mean, other than pointing out his own dreadful ignorance of pretty much every subject he touched on. But all that was covered before, in this very thread. You know, the thread you say doesn’t actually address Phil’s points. Except it does.
Did you have a point, other than to demonstrate your ignorance of every subject you’ve touched on?
@ Caine
*Silently sends packets of prime longjing tea on their way through the USB*
I live really close to where that particular tea is grown, so this should be really nice.
It’s so…
Yep, and all the dude did was make some threats and be an idiot. I mean, hey, it’s not really that big a deal is it? It’s nowhere near as bad as disclosing his name.
If the points were previously addressed in the prior 2000 posts, they don’t need to be repeated for fuckwits who haven’t done their homework. Their points, their posts, and their person should be immediately treated to the severest ridicule for being an ignorant and pompous asses.
simonbrown:
I would dearly like to know why this ^ always seems to apply to all except the Horde. When it comes to the Pharyngula commentariat, all we ever hear is “language, language, language!” with nary a “doesn’t invalidate their point though” to be seen.