Comments

  1. raven says

    FYI. This sort of harassment is pretty tame. I’ve seen a lot worse.

    No climatologists have been killed yet but one guy on his way to bomb an environmentalist group shot it out with the cops.

    These are just a few of the right wing/christofascist targets. They go after ecologists and evolutionary biologists as well.

    Two E.E’s or supporters that I know of have been beaten up, one knifed to death.

    ..Exposed: The terrifying harassment faced by climate change scientists
    By The Week’s Editorial Staff | The Week – 16 hrs ago…….

    ..Anthrax scares, public humiliation, and death threats are all in a day’s work for some climatologists. Popular Science’s Tom Clynes reveals the backstory
    Last week nationwide temperatures hovered in the 90s and 100s, yet the existence of climate change still remains a contentious issue. In a sprawling new story in Popular Science, Tom Clynes takes an in-depth look at the seedy but influential range of people who take it upon themselves to make life a living hell for climate-change researchers. Here, five key takeaways:

    1. Harassment is routine
    Climate-change deniers often threaten scientists in attempts to distract them from their research — and the harassment goes beyond nasty emails. One climate modeler describes finding “a dead rat on his doorstep” with “a yellow Hummer speeding away.” Last year in Australia, several scientists were ushered to a safer facility when opponents “unleashed a barrage of vandalism, noose brandishing, and threats of sexual attacks on the scientists’ children.” Michael Mann, director of Penn State University’s Earth System Science Center and the 2007 recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, once opened his mail and “a small mass of white powder cascaded out of the folds and onto his fingers.” He went to the bathroom, washed his hands, and calmly phoned the police. Anthrax threats like this example “are so much a part of my life that I don’t even realize how weird it is,” he says. continues…

  2. says

    By the way, I’m working on a little update to one of my posts from a few years ago (when I was pitifully HTML-challenged), “Alan Sokal, science, and politics.” Here are a couple of key quotes from Sokal:

    Which brings me to the last, and in my opinion most dangerous, set of adversaries of the evidence-based worldview in the contemporary world: namely, propagandists, public-relations hacks and spin doctors, along with the politicians and corporations who employ them – in short, all those whose goal is not to analyze honestly the evidence for and against a particular policy, but is simply to manipulate the public into reaching a predetermined conclusion by whatever technique will work, however dishonest or fraudulent.

    The critical thrust of science even extends beyond the factual realm, to ethics and politics. Of course, as a logical matter one cannot derive an “ought” from an “is”. But historically – starting in the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe and then spreading gradually to more or less the entire world – scientific skepticism has played the role of an intellectual acid, slowly dissolving the irrational beliefs that legitimated the established social order and its supposed authorities, be they the priesthood, the monarchy, the aristocracy, or allegedly superior races and social classes.

  4. says

    Yeah, fuck Aaron Sorkin. Especially for this:

    “Listen here, Internet girl,” he says, getting up. “It wouldn’t kill you to watch a film or pick up a newspaper once in a while.” I’m not sure how he’s forgotten that I am writing for a newspaper; looking over the publicist’s shoulder, I see that every reporter is from a print publication (do not see: Drew Magary). I remind him. I say also, factually, “I have a New York Times subscription and an HBO subscription. Any other advice?”

    Also, The New Yorker observed:

    Sorkin’s shows overflow with liberal verities about diversity, but they reproduce a universe in which the Great Man is the natural object of worship, as martyred by gossips as any Philip Roth protagonist.

  6. Tony... therefore God says

    Oh, and SC:
    I love Florence and the Machine. I hadn’t heard Seven Devils before; it is beautiful.
    They’re supposed to perform here in Pensacola, FL at DeLuna Fest later this year. I haven’t decided if I’m going, but they might be worth the $75/day ticket price.

  9. says

    Tony:

    grits, scrambled eggs, and proscuitto chips crumbled on top :)

    *shakes fist!*

    Daisy:

    Sorkin’s shows overflow with liberal verities about diversity, but they reproduce a universe in which the Great Man is the natural object of worship, as martyred by gossips as any Philip Roth protagonist.

    I’m sure it would help if the cast wasn’t pretty much all white people. Having two “throwaway” characters played by PoC hardly counts as diverse.

    And now for something completely different!
    My SiL’s baby shower is this weekend. It’s for her second child (which I thought was tacky in the first place) and I have no freaking idea how much I should spend on a gift. (For reference, I spent $100 on the gift for her first shower.) Any suggestions?

  11. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Frustrated.
    Stupid sciblogs. MAKE THE ENDLESS THREADS COME BACK.
    Bing cache isn’t helping me out.

  12. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Btw, my first day back at work was not awesome. But Zoe came and excitedly rolled all over the place in my lap, which was sweet.

  13. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    (For people who are confused, I work with dogs. Zoe is a small dog whom I know very well.)

  14. psanity says

    ‘Scuse. What happened to the thread? Twilight zone? Now I’m all confused. And I was just starting to reclaim my sense of humor after last night’s incite’s (spelling intentional) from Thunderfoot.

  16. psanity says

    Ah, thanks, Audley. I am apparently functionally blind. I haven’t been keeping up well with TET in some time, and expected to see 600 comments cascading in one fell swoop. Probably when I have checked in, it’s been in the middle somewhere so I haven’t noticed a difference. Probably gone on for months. (mutter, mutter)

  18. Tony... therefore God says

    Cipher:
    thanks for the clarification.
    When I saw the first post, I had quite the perplexed look upon my face :)

    What type of dog is Zoe?

  19. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    She’s a shih tzu, I think crossed with something that I forgot. I generally just call her a muffin.

  20. Tony... therefore God says

    Has anyone ever had corn beef hash?
    While thinking of the NOM NOM that is breakfast food, I started wondering if there’s a lower fat version of corn beef hash.

    Nutritional Information
    Serving Size:
    236g
    Servings per Container:
    varies
    Amount Per Serving
    Calories:
    380
    Total Fat:
    24g
    Saturated Fat:
    11g
    Cholesterol:
    80mg
    Sodium:
    990mg
    Total Carbs:
    22g
    Fiber:
    2g
    Sugars:
    1g
    Protein:
    19g
    http://www.hormelfoods.com/brands/hormel/hormelhash.aspx#

    I love this stuff, but the sodium levels are waaaaaaay too high and that saturated fat doesn’t look like a good number either.
    From the CDC:

    According to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010 (3), persons in the United States aged ≥2 years should limit daily sodium intake to <2,300 mg. Subpopulations that would benefit from further reducing sodium intake to 1,500 mg daily include 1) persons aged ≥51 years, 2) blacks, and 3) persons with hypertension, diabetes, or chronic kidney disease http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6041a1.htm

    As a PoC, I likely fit into #2 in the subpopulation, meaning it may be wise for me to limit my daily sodium intake to <1500 mg. If I have one serving of Hormel Corned Beef Hash, I only have @ 510 mg left. That could be consumed with the rest of the food at breakfast. Sheesh!

  21. chigau (違う) says

    Tony
    We make corned beef hash from “scratch”.
    It’s probably a wee bit less salty.

  22. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Bleh.

    Threadrupt.

    I came in to work all weekend, feverishly collecting data for the Big Important Symposium that was today.

    Got… a flat progression. It so flat as to be glorious.

    Except that I was doing shit that should cause changes! >_<

    So, work work work for squat.

    On the plus side, the symposium and the talks were excellent.

    So, I see there's this big ass thread on Thunderfoot. *scuttles off to look*

    *5 min later*

    WHAT.

  23. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    And by that, I that if my experiment is:
    1) Dump peroxide on cell culture
    2) Wait relevant length of time
    3) Test for levels of superoxide dismutase and various things known to be affected by oxidative stress,

    Then the result of “Whups! No changes in anything!” is kinda fucking bizarre. And infuriating.

  24. ibyea says

    On men’s bathroom:
    I hate men’s bathroom. All men should sit down when they pee. None of the “aiming” crap that allows pee to splatter all over the toilet.

  25. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    One way women’s bathrooms are nastier than men’s rooms:

    Let me summarize by quoting a little sign that just went up in the restroom at work: “Please makes sure your personal items go INSIDE the bag!”

    Posted on the little bins that found inside the stalls in a women’s rest room.

    If it goes in the bag? No muss, no fuss.

    If it doesn’t? YUCK. Especially if it’s been there awhile…

  26. Pteryxx says

    Esteleth, have you got a control for peroxide activity? The stuff goes bad if you glance at it wrong, IMHO.

  28. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    I did test the peroxide before I added it. Came in right at the expected levels.

    The cells are a primary line. Quite fresh.

  29. Pteryxx says

    hmm… have you got a positive control for superoxide dismutase activity?

    (are you okay with TET troubleshooting?) (…can y’all tell this crap has burned me before?)

  30. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    I’m going to run a new experiment starting tomorrow. Gonna do a dose-response course. It’s possible that either these cells are resistant to peroxides, or so sensitive that I just killed them all.

    *sigh*

    In other news! I found rhubarb at the store! I made PIE. :D :D

  31. A. R says

    Esteleth: If you can, what is the cell type? Granted, being in vriology I mostly know about Vero E3 and HeLa cells, but I might have a book around here with something.

  32. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    SOD activity? Well, beyond knowing the kit works (commercial kit), and knowing that there is no reason why these cells would have abnormal activity, no positive control in and of itself. That is, I didn’t take a different group of cells, dump peroxide on them, and test the SOD activity.

  33. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    A.R., these are primary cells. Not infected with anything, wild-type, etc., etc.

    Very poorly characterized, which is why I’m doing very basic characterization work on them. Unlikely they’d be in books, sorry.

  34. Pteryxx says

    well, just to be completely anal, it might be nice to just verify the kit with a corner well of saved lysate or something easy like that. I’ve been burned before by a malfunctioning commercial kit, and another time because the DNA probe I generated *for my target* didn’t work with the kit being used, even though all the control probes DID. That one took months to troubleshoot.

  35. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    And when I say “primary,” I mean primary.

    As in, “take whole organism, cut there” kind of primary. And fresh as in thursday.

  36. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    It is certainly worth a shot, Pteryxx. I should probably do that anyway, if for no other reason than to tell a reviewer, “Why yes! I have that graph! It is here.”

  37. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    So…wtf is going on in the thunderfoot thread?!

    I’ve gotten to comment 290 or so, and it just keeps growing. Was there a slimepit invasion or something?!

  38. says

    SC @ 495,

    A celebration of freethought, where people championing the status quo are given a platform and those of us in the groups they hurt can just deal with it.

    You are right to criticize me here, I didn’t make it clear enough what I meant. I obviously wasn’t suggesting to invite anyone and everyone just for the sake of “free thoughts”, I was thinking of within a certain spectrum (although you and I would probably disagree vehemently would we try to define the boundaries of that spectrum).

    Someone at Lego is a fucking genius, let me tell you. My 5-year old could easily work as their sales rep already. When did Lego Star Wars happen anyway ? Or Lego Batman ? There are YT clips and movies with Lego Batman or Lego Spiderman ! And the newest attempt to drive parents into bancruptcy, Lego Ninjago, is working really well too.

  39. A. R says

    Esteleth: Yeah, Thunderfap opened a portal to the Slimepit. Have you gotten to the part where Justicar claims that “Slimepit” is a reference of Abbie Smith’s vagina? Oh, and about your cells, I tentatively agree with Pteryxx, otherwise, the cells might jsut be hypersensitive to peroxide, so you could try a high dilution.

  40. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Well, I’ve gotten as far as Josh renaming himself “SpokesBrah” the mocking of the ScentedNectarware.

    I’m going to do a dose-dependency curve soon. Hopefully, I’ll just find that the standard curve of peroxide exposure is there, albeit just shifted either this way or that.

  41. Owlmirror says

    Stupid sciblogs. MAKE THE ENDLESS THREADS COME BACK.

    What do you seek?

    Bing cache isn’t helping me out.

    Yeah, robots.txt kills cache, and I’m pretty sure that Bing, like Google and archive.org, respects the robots.txt

  42. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    Tony!–

    Listen to SpokesGay. Since I had a mid-30s heart attack I know everything (that’s snark, and listen to your Dr., please).

    1. Canned corned-beef hash is one of the most delicious things in the world. And the Mary Kitchen/Hormel brand is the only one.

    2. Yes, its nutritional profile is abysmal. It’s loaded with sodium and saturated fat.

    3. But as with all things, a treat once in a while is fine. My biggest hurdle in adjusting my diet in the past few years was making everyday foods into Sometimes Foods (pace Cookie Monster). You can make the hash a sometimes and not very often food and still enjoy it.

    4. Sodium fears are often overblown. Yes, I know black Americans are prone to hypertension, and yes, I know heart disease patients like me are supposed to be super paranoid.

    But I’m not. Why? Because even when I was fat and a smoker I had good blood pressure. Since slimming down and quitting (plus meds, but they just make it preternaturally good) it’s even better. Salt is the one thing I refused to go nuts about after cutting so many other things out.

    It simply does not make logical sense to restrict it until and unless it becomes a problem. Every time I go to the Dr. and the nurse checks my BP it’s great, and yet they still bang on about the salt thing. When I ask “why, considering my good BP” I get hemming and hawing and, “Well it can. . .”

    Yes, it can. But it hasn’t. And so long as I watch for signs of trouble, what’s the big deal? There isn’t one. Salt is not poison, and there’s even some recent research (I’m sorry I can’t remember where, but yes, it was in the journals not a press release) questioning the assumed link between sodium intake and health consequences/mortality from hypertension.

    So, no, I’m not saying ignore it. I’m saying don’t let people push you into abstemiousness for no good reason if you’re not experiencing problems yet. Watch and be mindful. Salt does not have a cumulative effect over time the way eating fatty foods does. You’re not setting yourself for BP problems later by eating salt now.

  43. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    And if I’m wrong about any of that you can be sure the medical pros around here will correct the misinformation.

  44. says

    And if I’m wrong about any of that you can be sure the medical pros around here will correct the misinformation.

    Sorry mate, too busy reading through all the trainwrecks that keep popping up here. And to think that some people have trouble keeping up with Pharyngula alone !
    (As a rule of thumb and from the top of my head, it’s like with everything else, dosis facit venerum, with salt I think it’s above 2g/day, and also, it’s different if you have other comorbidities like Diabetes or kidney problems or high BP, and these things also to a degree cause and effect each other)

  45. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    What did I tell ya, Tony? (That wasn’t meant to obligate you btw Rorschach:)

    Yeah, trainwrecks. Who’da thunk we’d be dealing with a Slimepit Franchise Store right here on FtB?

  46. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Salt does not have a cumulative effect over time the way eating fatty foods does. You’re not setting yourself for BP problems later by eating salt now.

    Yep. I was lucky that my doctor never cared about my weight because I never had anything wrong with me despite being fat; my blood pressure was great, all my blood tests came out fine. I even asked him to do extra bloodwork because I was convinced something was wrong, but nope. All I have is allergies, and fatphobic doctors haven’t found a way to pin that on fatness (…yet).

    My diet has improved a lot, especially since I turned vegetarian, but salt is something I don’t worry about. I also use kosher salt instead of iodized most of the time because the larger flakes actually mean you use less salt. It also doesn’t have that metallic iodine tang that I despise.

    I guess this is a tangent, but how necessary is iodine in iodized salt for one’s health if one has a good, balanced diet? I thought salt was originally iodized a long time ago to supplement people’s diets because they were iodine-poor and there were fears of…whatever disease it caused. I know it was one of those old-timey ones you don’t hear much about anymore. Gout? Cretinism? Bloody flux?

  47. Owlmirror says

    I thought salt was originally iodized a long time ago to supplement people’s diets because they were iodine-poor and there were fears of…whatever disease it caused. I know it was one of those old-timey ones you don’t hear much about anymore. Gout? Cretinism? Bloody flux?

    Goiter, and cretinism.

    You may be getting iodine in other ways, but you do need to be having some.

    Do you really taste the iodine in salt?

  48. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Goiter, and cretinism.

    Well, one out of two ain’t bad. (Also, I wish I’d specified that I know these diseases aren’t endemic anymore in the West, but are a huge issue in the developing world.)

    You may be getting iodine in other ways, but you do need to be having some.

    Do you really taste the iodine in salt?

    Yes, I really do. I’m sure I get iodine (or iodized salt) other ways, like if it’s in something prepackaged or something I didn’t cook.

  49. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    I meant I don’t keep it on the table and sprinkle it on my food, is what I was getting at.

  50. says

    A point worth making is that it would be much easier for governments to legislate that food producers reduce the amount of salt in processed foods, or pay taxes for excess salt (or sugar) in their products, there are estimates that that alone would achieve a significant reduction in the incidence of cardiovascular disease.

    *cue outcries from Walton*

  51. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    RahXephon—I hate to sound this way, but I highly doubt you’re actually tasting the iodine in salt. Yes, I believe you’re experiencing something, obviously! But it’s super unlikely you’re tasting the iodine that’s there in such trace quantities. Perhaps you’re tasting some other byproduct of the salt processing? Perhaps one brand is made differently from others?

    It reminds me of the persistent belief that monosodium glutamate causes symptoms of sickness. It absolutely does not (double-blind tests have shown this over and over) and its “effect” is certainly placebo-driven.

    I hope I’ve said this in a way that doesn’t sound like “You’re totes crazy!” I don’t mean that. But expectations and placebo are rife in our perceptions of food and they usually don’t match up to reality.

  52. says

    Also, I wish I’d specified that I know these diseases aren’t endemic anymore in the West

    If you want to see really cool massive goitres from lack of Iodine in 2012, take a trip to Switzerland’s mountain regions.

  53. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    Rorschach at #50–

    That press release was very light on detail and at least some of its claims are questionable given recent research. Excepting that, mandating lower salt content in processed food strikes me as a fairly mild government intervention—people can always add their own salt. And since paying a bit more attention to it I’ve been shocked by just how salty a lot of foods I formerly liked out of the box really are. I *love* salt and consider it the most important seasoning in the kitchen (to be used according to need and dish, not just poured on everything) but some of that shit is so salty as to be unbelievable.

    I’m always wary of new “health campaigns” by government to tax/ban certain consumables. They’re nearly always a political “silver bullet” solution to a problem that’s complicated, they may not work, and they give politicians cover for “doing something” when the benefits are speculative at best or not at all balanced to the costs (of things like consumer choice, not just industry profits). Soda, salt, white sugar. . .it’s about narrow thinking rather than addressing the systemic problem of poor nutrition and food preparation habits in the first world that have to do with a boatload more than just single evil ingredients.

    On the other hand, I changed my mind about the trans-fat bans that popped up in places like New York. At first I thought they were hysterical and ridiculous, but after my heart attack I was forced to do some reading. When I found out just how really, really bad they are (and they are) it became immediately clear there was no justification for allowing that shit to be used when there were so many alternatives in fat that weren’t so noxious.

  54. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    If you want to see really cool massive goitres from lack of Iodine in 2012, take a trip to Switzerland’s mountain regions.

    Sort of like eco-tourism, but with people? :)))

  55. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    But seriously—what’s up with the Swiss mountains? Why do they have such a horrible iodine deficiency?

  56. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    @Josh

    Well, whether I’m tasting iodine or just imagining I’m tasting iodine, I’ve never been fond of the way iodized table salt tastes. I still use it sometimes, like when I’m at a restaurant and it’s all they have. Unlike the conspiracy theories some people have about MSG, I have no conspiracy theories about iodized salt; it’s just a preference.

    @rorschach

    Based on my usual reaction to medical photography, I don’t think goiter-gazing is a hobby I’ll be taking up.

  57. Tony... therefore God says

    Josh:

    Back before M died, I was an avid gym guy. Not in any bulky sense, but fit and reasonably muscular. For the 8-10 years preceding that, I learned quite a bit about nutrition (certainly not enough to be an expert, but more informed than the average person on the street). I learned about mono/poly unsaturated fats, sugar, calories (it was time consuming to keep track of everything I ate and drank every day so that I could reach my muscle growth goals)…basically all the label ingredients (yes, even sodium; my post wasn’t meant to imply that I’m worried about my sodium intake. Only that I like corned beef hash, and because I watch my intake, I wanted to have some that wasn’t as loaded with salt). I also began eating healthier. More fruits and veggies. Less processed crap. Lean meats and plenty of seafood. I’m very thankful that my parents taught me basic cooking skills. I’ve developed those skills somewhat more. That way I don’t have to go out to eat (and don’t all that much).
    Oh and I’ve long indulged in Fun Foods. I used to have a ‘cheat day’. 6 days a week, I would eat a more strict diet and on the seventh day I would eat whatever junk I wanted. For me, I was able to look forward to having those cookies or ice cream or fried chicken, so it was almost a goal to work towards.

  58. Josh, Official SpokesBrah says

    Sounds like you know what you’re doing Tony. Apologies if I came off as lecture-y.

  59. says

    Josh,

    sorry, I didn’t put much effort into googling there…As to whether to legislate say for example salt content, this is the same discussion that applies to sugared drinks or fatty foods, you just can not expect many if not most people to study health warnings or nutritional information labels, and then put together a suitable diet for themselves based on that information. So there is a role for the state to prevent people who just don’t know what’s in the food they are eating from getting sick, by limiting the amount of things like salt that get added to these foods.

    There is in my view also a need to make healthy food cheaper and more easily available than processed shit, but that’s another discussion entirely…

  60. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    @rorschach

    What people eat is as much a class issue as it is a “knowledge” issue. Cooking requires having the money and ability to buy ingredients, a properly equipped place to cook them, and the knowledge to do so. For instance, I’m a good cook and I do have a kitchen in my house, but I don’t have the money to buy the ingredients I want. For some people, they have the money and space, but not the time.

    Also, sometimes people eat “unhealthy” things just because the money-to-caloric-density ratio demands it. I think the point was actually made by someone here that if all they had was a dollar, and they had to pick between buying a banana or a couple of bags of chips, they’d buy the chips.

    I guess what I’m getting at is that I do think the government has a role in bettering the diets of its citizens (the FDA regulating the safety of the food supply, the food stamp program) and I oppose things like the change to the Farm Bill that I linked earlier today. However, it does make me uncomfortable when people (not you, necessarily) look at things like soda and decide that people are drinking them because they “simply don’t know any better” and that the state has to step in.

  62. says

    However, it does make me uncomfortable when people (not you, necessarily) look at things like soda and decide that people are drinking them because they “simply don’t know any better” and that the state has to step in.

    I don’t want to tell anyone what to drink or not. But sugary fizzy drinks cost the state money through the obesity, diabetes etc. they have the potential to be causing down the track, so I think these products should be taxed, and should be more expensive than healthier alternatives. That’s all really.

  63. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    But sugary fizzy drinks cost the state money through the obesity, diabetes etc. they have the potential to be causing down the track, so I think these products should be taxed, and should be more expensive than healthier alternatives.

    Wut?

    They don’t “cost the state” any money at all in the US or any other country that doesn’t have a nationalized healthcare system, unless you wanna talk about Medicare and Medicaid, in which case we’re still talking about penalizing the poor and elderly. Also, “obesity” is not actually a health issue on its own. Saying “I’m fat” is not a diagnosis, it’s a descriptor.

    As far as the “diseases” associated with obesity, I’d like to know if there are studies that show definitive links and if other factors are involved. Take heart disease: did those fat people smoke? Did they avoid physical activity because of that, or maybe they avoided physical activity because our culture is so fucked up that we shame people for being fat and then shame them for their totes obvs. futile attempts to lose weight? Did they avoid physical activity because of a disability that went untreated because a lazy fatphobic fuck of a doctor ignored their actual problem and deflected it with a “you’re fat, just lose weight”? Were they poor and couldn’t afford a better diet, or overworked and stressed, or most likely both?

  64. says

    Also, “obesity” is not actually a health issue on its own.

    You are wrong, and that is a rather uninformed and silly thing to say. But at this point I choose to withdraw from the discussion, because it never ends well.

  65. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    You are wrong, and that is a rather uninformed and silly thing to say. But at this point I choose to withdraw from the discussion, because it never ends well.

    I asked you for evidence and you check out. That’s great. Real rational.

  66. says

    The liberturdian/Paulbot bullshit finally got to me and made me starfart (how long it has been since I’ve seen that term used…) all over that thread about how powerful and privileged us liberals are.

    —

    rorschach #64:

    You are wrong, and that is a rather uninformed and silly thing to say. But at this point I choose to withdraw from the discussion, because it never ends well.

    Courtier’s Reply. Come on, you can do better than that =/

  67. says

    Cipher:

    But Zoe came and excitedly rolled all over the place in my lap, which was sweet.

    D’aawwwww. Can you post a pic of her some time?

    Tony, not that my eating habits are pristine or anything, but just the sight of a Hormel product makes me gag.

    Esteleth:

    So, I see there’s this big ass thread on Thunderfoot. *scuttles off to look*

    *5 min later*

    WHAT.

    I LOL’ed. But then again I’m up too late (insomnia again). I also misunderstood “flat progression” at first to be music-related.

    As for “personal items,” I once was eating out with a group of people when one of them went to the bathroom and stayed in there a long while. When she returned, she looked absolutely mortified. The “personal item depository” in her stall had been packed so full of used tampons and pads that it exploded all over the bathroom, showering her and a few other women in there with nasties. She didn’t leave the stall until everyone else had left the restroom.

    (No, this restaurant was not renowned for its cleanliness. It has long since closed.)

    Rah, I’m also fortunate to have a primary-care physician (and her practice) that does not give me shit about being fat. I had a physical earlier this month, and everything was normal across the board. I’m fortunate to have genetics on my side, I guess… cancer, though, is something I have to fear, as it killed three of my four grandparents and might have killed my dad as well if he hadn’t finally gotten a colonoscopy (at the age of sixty-seven, FFS).

    Rorschach, I agree with Josh and Rah: There are all sorts of class issues that don’t get addressed in the food debate. So it becomes another moral panic, with the least powerful people othered and demonized — i.e. not helped at all, so that supercilious privileged types can feel better about themselves.

    In addition to what Rah said, cheap foods provide poor people with an affordable source of pleasure. Improve their opportunities and quality of life overall, and they might find healthier sources of pleasure.

    Really, you need to educate yourself on the sociology of this issue, because the solutions you propose will not solve the problem.

    Josh, yeah, I cut way back on salt in my early 20s to alleviate PMS and menstrual cramps, and a lot of processed foods became unpalatable to me. I tend to use too little salt in cooking, I’m told by my chef friends, but, meh, not a problem unless I’m cooking for guests.

  68. says

    In addition to what Rah said, cheap foods provide poor people with an affordable source of pleasure.

    Well, I rest my case.

    In other news, now that I have gone back to Google+ (almost) under my internet ‘nym, I’m constantly being offered to add Chris Mooney and Wil Wheaton, what’s up with that ? I’m totes with Sheldon Cooper on the Wheaton issue.

  70. Walton says

    Rorschach: I’m not fond of “just tax fatty foods” as a solution; I think it’s too simplistic. There are multiple socio-economic and environmental reasons for the obesity epidemic, and I don’t think it can be solved through arbitrarily making fatty foods more expensive. What we really need is holistic solutions that actually work on making healthy, nutritious foods available to everyone at affordable cost.

    I found this article really interesting, on the way that the prevalence of high-fructose corn syrup in everything – which can apparently be traced, in part, to the agribusiness policies of the Nixon administration – has dramatically increased everyone’s sugar intake, compared to that of earlier generations, and contributed to obesity.

  71. John Morales says

    RahXephon @65:

    I asked you for evidence and you check out. That’s great. Real rational.

    You strive for sarcasm, but it fails because it is truth.

  73. says

    Did you mean to sound like you were making a value judgment against the poor for deriving pleasure from where they can get it?

    No, I meant to indicate that the poor get fucked over twice, first by only being able to afford unhealthy foods, and second by these being foods that are likely to have adverse health effects, and cause them medical expenses down the track.

  74. Matt Penfold says

    I found this article really interesting, on the way that the prevalence of high-fructose corn syrup in everything – which can apparently be traced, in part, to the agribusiness policies of the Nixon administration – has dramatically increased everyone’s sugar intake, compared to that of earlier generations, and contributed to obesity.

    The increased use of high-fructose corn syrup could partly explain the increase in levels of obesity in the US, but given the severe caps on the manufacturer and importation of the syrup in the EU, it clearly is not a major factor since the EU has seen a similar increase in levels of obesity.

  75. John Morales says

    Walton:

    Rorschach: I’m not fond of “just tax fatty foods” as a solution; I think it’s too simplistic.

    1. Rorschach: “So there is a role for the state to prevent people who just don’t know what’s in the food they are eating from getting sick, by limiting the amount of things like salt that get added to these foods.”

    2. Rorschach: “A point worth making is that it would be much easier for governments to legislate that food producers reduce the amount of salt in processed foods, or pay taxes for excess salt (or sugar) in their products, there are estimates that that alone would achieve a significant reduction in the incidence of cardiovascular disease.”

    3. Rorschach: “I don’t want to tell anyone what to drink or not. But sugary fizzy drinks cost the state money through the obesity, diabetes etc. they have the potential to be causing down the track, so I think these products should be taxed, and should be more expensive than healthier alternatives. That’s all really.”

    —

    Whence this talk about “just tax fatty foods” as a solution”?

  76. John Morales says

    RahXephon:

    Wut?

    They don’t “cost the state” any money at all in the US or any other country that doesn’t have a nationalized healthcare system, unless you wanna talk about Medicare and Medicaid, in which case we’re still talking about penalizing the poor and elderly.

    Because productive workers becoming sick costs the state nothing?

  78. John Morales says

    Hey, Walton, nice to see you here again.

    (As you may note, it hasn’t really changed that much!)

  80. ChasCPeterson says

    As far as the “diseases” associated with obesity, I’d like to know if there are studies that show definitive links and if other factors are involved.

    You’re on the internet, right? All the information is at your own fingertips. You’d rather be hyperskeptical than look it up. The definitive links come in the form of increased risks for heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, etc. (In most cases the physiology underlying the epidemiological links is pretty clear too.) Risks are properties of populations. If you are both fat and healthy, congratulations on your luck. It’s an anecdote. The data are out there.

  81. says

    Corned beef hash will always be salty, but sodium’s rather overrated as a danger. (See Cochrane reports. Also this on the ‘too little is also bad’.) The fat is more of a worry – so can you make your own? I cook my own corned silverside (prepped by the butcher), it’s very easy to make the meat low fat. Then maybe just be careful and use a bit of olive oil rather than great masses of butter for the frying part. If you’re not eating a massively sodium-packed diet normally, you should be OK.

    …
    And I’m just too fucking depressed to deal with slimepitters now. Stupidity or evil? Usually the default assumption of stupidity is right, but I’m doubting that more and more as this goes on. And on. And on.

    So yeah. Cooking! Kittens! Rainbows! Ponies!

    PS: Did anyone propose “Thunderfart” yet?

  83. says

    You’re on the internet, right?

    I was thinking that, but I guess too polite to say so. This is really not information that is difficult to google.

  84. Matt Penfold says

    Then maybe just be careful and use a bit of olive oil rather than great masses of butter for the frying part. If you’re not eating a massively sodium-packed diet normally, you should be OK.

    Actually you can avoid the frying bit completely.

    Just cook the joint whole in water, with stock veg, some peppercorns and bayleaf for 2 or 3 hours until tender. Throw away the stock veg and spices but keep the liquid and use it cook chunky carrots, potatoes and parsnips before adding some cabbage.

    Serve carved with the veg and some of the liquid.

  85. says

    Maybe Thunderfuck should be reading AronRa’s recent ‘it’s alright to be wrong’ post instead of acting like a complete asshole.

  86. says

    Guh… I’m doing it again. I’m talking down my gender dysphoria again. I’ve been down this road several times already, trying to convince myself I’m cis. The next step is accepting it, purging, and closeting myself. I know it, I’m doing it again.

    Why am I so fucking scared of being me?

  88. says

    John M,

    you’re on the ball tonight, good work !

    I find myself increasingly exhausted and exasperated by this same topic being rehashed again and again. Can we please go back to fighting religion again ?

  89. says

    Yeah, Matt, but if you don’t fry it, it’s not corned beef hash. That’s corned beef and veggies. Yummy, and I’d serve it with a parsley sauce with maybe some horseradish – but it’s not hash.

    Katherine, you be you! How’s the counselling going?

  92. Beatrice says

    Katherine,

    I can only offer *hugs*, if you’ll accept them from an internet stranger.

    (Warning : I’m shit at giving support, so I hope I don’t offend with this or overstep boundaries)

    If my memory serves me correctly, I’ve been occasionally commenting already when you started using the name Katherine Lorraine here. I wish Scienceblogs comments were on and that I could link to those comments so that you could see how happy you were about it, and how much support you had. Those who know you better have shared many of the little steps you took towards being yourself, and have seen your joy. Try to remember those times and how they made you feel, how finally being yourself made you feel. That wasn’t fake, that wasn’t an illusion. Being yourself may sometimes be scary, but it’s also making you happy. Doubts are obscuring that happiness right now, but I am confident that you will defeat them.
    —

    And in case this was counterproductive, I’ll just throw a lot of *chocolate* in your direction.

  93. dianne says

    As far as the “diseases” associated with obesity, I’d like to know if there are studies that show definitive links and if other factors are involved.

    Possibly should let this one go, but who can resist the urge to pontificate?

    The epidemiologic data on weight versus survival shows a J shaped curve with the lowest mortality being in the mildly overweight category and a sharp increase in mortality at the obese (BMI>30*). This doesn’t prove that slightly overweight is the true ideal-there are lots of potential confounders when one looks at raw population data. Nor does it prove that being obese is a health issue, but the sharp increase is going to be hard to explain away completely with confounders. Additionally, studies of weight reduction surgery such as gastric bypass for “morbidly obese” patients (BMI >40)do indicate a decreased mortality, despite their being hideous surgeries and having multiple complications, suggesting that very high weights do cause health problems.

    As to specific diseases, there are some associations. Some people can improve their glucose tolerance, delay the onset of type II diabetes**, improve their blood pressure, decrease cholesterol levels, decrease arthritis pain, etc with weight loss. OTOH, there are plenty of people out there who are overweight and obese who don’t have diabetes, hypertension, etc and plenty of skinny people who do have same.

    TLDR answer: It’s complicated. Extremes of weight are probably not the most healthy, but the exact pathophysiology is unclear.

    *Yes, BMI is an imperfect measure of obesity. But on the population level, most people with high BMIs will have excess adipose tissue. Results may not apply if your BMI is 31 because you’re an Olympic class weightlifter.

    **But probably not completely prevent its development.

  94. dianne says

    I also think we’re going about treating the “obesity epidemic” all wrong. Sugary drinks have been around for a long time. People may be drinking more now than in the past (why?), but it’s not like sugar was introduced in the 1990s or something.

    What is different is sleep, stress, and increased income disparity. People get less sleep now than they did 30 years ago, are more likely to be working multiple jobs-especially multiple sedentary jobs, are more likely to be stressed as far as not knowing whether their jobs, health insurance, or homes are going to disappear in the next few months.

    Stress releases steroid hormones, which contribute to obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and a whole bunch of other metabolic changes. Sleep deprivation causes similar problems along with decreased mental acuity and in extreme cases hallucinations and psychosis.

    So, my feeling is that if we’re serious about ending the “obesity epidemic” this is what we should do: Increase the minimum wage to the point that a person working minimum wage for 40 hours a week is making a “living wage”, i.e. has enough to live reasonably comfortably and support a family. Make health care available to all-the simplest method would be to dump the stupid insurance/job connection and just make a single payer system, but however it has to happen, as long as it happens. Ensure that people who are unemployed, even long term unemployed and not looking for a job, have access to the basic needs of life and aren’t living in constant fear of losing their homes and other assets. Decrease the gap between rich and poor. Make sure that healthy food is available to all people, including those living in not so great neighborhoods where supermarkets and gourmet stores are less likely to be. Improve public transportation-walking up and down the subway stairs or to the bus stop is exercise. Put bike paths in. Discourage car traffic.

    I’m dreaming aren’t I?

  95. dianne says

    Can we please go back to fighting religion again ?

    No. It’s over. We won. Now we’re just fighting the insurgents that don’t realize the war is long since over. It’s really been over since people started putting lightening rods on churches.

  96. dianne says

    Katherine, hugs or chocolate or your favorite spirit if you want them. And please don’t get upset with yourself for not being the perfect transperson. Just be you and live your life the way that seems best to you.

  97. says

    You know what, having been bullied for twelve fucking years (e.g., all through school), and being a “honky McStraighterson,” I didn’t need to fucking read this bullshit. Fuck off and die, Rutee. Bullying is not strictly a phenomenon that happens to GLBT kids.

    Jesus christ, I so didn’t need this this morning. I’m sleep deprived and somewhat depressed and now I’m on the verge of tears AT WORK because apparently I’m a BAD ALLY for asserting that, YES, I was bullied mercilessly and nobody did a goddamn thing about it and complaining about it is APPROPRIATING SOMEONE ELSE’S OpPRESSION.

    I’m out of here for a while. I don’t need to be putting my energy into fighting oppressive assholes and then have to read bullshit like that.

  98. says

    dianne:

    So, my feeling is that if we’re serious about ending the “obesity epidemic” this is what we should do: Increase the minimum wage to the point that a person working minimum wage for 40 hours a week is making a “living wage”, i.e. has enough to live reasonably comfortably and support a family. Make health care available to all-the simplest method would be to dump the stupid insurance/job connection and just make a single payer system, but however it has to happen, as long as it happens. Ensure that people who are unemployed, even long term unemployed and not looking for a job, have access to the basic needs of life and aren’t living in constant fear of losing their homes and other assets. Decrease the gap between rich and poor. Make sure that healthy food is available to all people, including those living in not so great neighborhoods where supermarkets and gourmet stores are less likely to be. Improve public transportation-walking up and down the subway stairs or to the bus stop is exercise. Put bike paths in. Discourage car traffic.

    SOCIALIST!!1!

    Along those lines, I would like to see the suburban areas become more walking/biking/public transport friendly and become more like small towns as opposed to a collection of houses. There was a mayor of one of the suburbs of Albany who tried this– she worked to put in side walks, small parks, and encouraged small businesses to open. Of course she was voted out ‘cos omg! taxes!.

    In other news: I hate the DMV. I just spent well over half an hour on hold with the fucking New York State DMV information line for them to tell me that they can’t help me.

    *sigh* I WANT TO PAY MY GODDAMN PENALTY! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

  99. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Katherine
    All I am is a stranger on the internet who had the cheek to unfairly tease you about your novel so a little background is in order.

    I’m cis, so cis that I cannot fathom except in the purest of intellectual ways what it means to be trans. I’m also so far to the het side of the Kinesy scale that the only times I’ve had homoerotic dreams, all of twice in my life, my only thought when I awoke was “Huh, that was strange.”

    And yet I hate who I am.

    I’m not over weight by much. I’m pretty average looking, but there’ve been enough women, and a couple of men, in my life who found me attractive enough to let me know that I’m far from repulsive.

    And yet I hate who I am.

    I’m a nice guy by most folks standards. I have my bad days of course, but I’m actively, purposefully aware of how I treat others. When I fail, and I do, I’m more than willing to say ‘mea culpa’ and take whatever punishment/restitution that comes from it.

    And yet I hate who I am.

    I own a small bicycle store. I do all the repair work and I routinely fix minor things that the customer didn’t know was a problem without asking for payment or even telling them I’ve done it. Hell I did a bunch of extra work unasked for and uncompensated for on the lay-pastor of the local evangelical church’s bike because I know how dirt poor he is.

    And yet I hate who I am.

    I have a wife who’s been my partner in every sense of that word for over a decade. I have a child who is smart, funny and well behaved. One who says to me regularly “Do you know how much I love you Daddy? All the way to the stars and the moon and back a trillion times.”

    And yet I hate who I am.

    This hate pops up in my head unbidden. I’ll just be riding along, or standing in the shower, or falling asleep and the phrase “I hate…” will come out of nowhere. Just like that, “I hate…” followed by a pause. You’d think I could use that moment of silence to choose something else. Tack on “misogynists” or “eggplant” or “politics” but I can’t. “I hate…” is the pitch and every, single, fucking, time my brain swings at it with “me.” And in that moment I most definitely mean it.

    I’ve thought long and hard about this and I still can’t say for sure why it happens. The feeling is like every single misdeed, every shameful moment of my life is lurking down atop my spinal column, compressed almost into vanishing. And a slight slip in the pressure holding it at bay allows it burst up into my brain like a rising thunderhead full of malevolent energy and turbulent winds that push aside the rational, flattening my good deeds like hail through seedlings.

    I think in the end that having difficulty in these sorts of things is a part of what it means to be a human who’s struggling with their own brain. For myself it comes from a shitty childhood and a history of depression. I know, objectively, rationally, demonstratively, that I’m a good person and yet my self-loathing can push all that aside in a heart beat. I obviously cannot speak to your experience, but I think many, many people have these moments where they deny the fact of their true nature even in the face of overwhelming evidence. It’s just that those folk who are lucky enough to be neurotypical can shrug it off the way I shrugged off those two sexy man-dreams.

    Gah, but what the fuck do I know? Well one thing anyway:

    I wish you all the best Katherine. I hope you find peace and joy in your life and that your transition burns away the clouds that torment you leaving a shining star, bright and beautiful, for all the world to see.

  100. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Along those lines, I would like to see the suburban areas become more walking/biking/public transport friendly and become more like small towns as opposed to a collection of houses.

    My wife is an engineer who specialises in active transportation such as walking, skating and cycling. I’ve observed first hand how cities deal with these sorts of issues. The civic planning departments are full of people, barring a few old timers, who know that liveable cities need diverse neighbourhoods with mixed income levels and local shops and services. They know that building more roads only increases traffic and that there are effective ways to get folks out of their cars and into a more healthy lifestyle both personally and for the planet. This stuff is well known and well studied with plenty of real world examples to found in europe.

    And the city councils understand these plans, they agree with them, they fund the planning and encourage the planners. Right up until it’s time to fund the actual implementation of those plans. My wife’s budget was one million dollars a year. You can’t put in more than a single multi-use overpass for that money, let alone do any substantive amount of road-dieting, lane marking and segregation that would make active transport a viable option for most folks. And of course everyone blames the planers and not their elected representatives for the problems in their community. /rant

  101. says

    Mormons have decided to instruct teenagers in the proper (read “faith promoting”) method for asking questions.

    …These questions you’re asking inevitably include things related to the gospel and the Church. Whether you were raised in the Church or learned about it only recently, your study, pondering, and experience can lead you to more—and more complex—questions about the gospel.

    Questioning vs. Asking Questions
    …Questioning, here, refers to challenging, disputing, or picking something apart. When it comes to religion, the result of this approach is often not to find answers but rather to find fault and destroy confidence.

    On the other hand, in religion, just as in science or anything else worth studying, it’s absolutely essential to ask questions, even difficult ones. …

    So, your attitude and your motive in asking a question can make all the difference in where it will eventually lead you. For instance, if you’re studying the scriptures and come across a passage that seems to contradict a Church teaching or a scientific or historical fact, there’s a big difference between asking “How could the scriptures (or the Church) possibly be true if … ?” and asking “What’s the full context of this passage and what does it mean in light of … ?” The first question may lead you to a hastily drawn conclusion based on skepticism and doubt rather than actual knowledge or logic, whereas the second is more likely to lead you to greater insight and faith….

    …As you study and learn and pray, you may come across something that troubles you or doesn’t make sense to you no matter how much you try to understand it. What should you do then?

    First, ask yourself, “How vital is this question to my overall understanding and testimony of the gospel?” If you feel it really is important, try as best you can to resolve it, and ask for help from someone you trust, such as a parent, Church leader, or seminary teacher….

    If you find that a question isn’t that important, set it aside in your mental “To Be Answered Later” file….

    A Diet of Doubt vs. a Feast of Faith
    If you focus entirely on the intellect in your gospel study, you run the risk of spiritual malnutrition, because questioning and skepticism are pretty thin gruel. …

    http://www.lds.org/new-era/2012/05/any-questions?lang=eng

  103. says

    FossilFishy:

    You can’t put in more than a single multi-use overpass for that money, let alone do any substantive amount of road-dieting, lane marking and segregation that would make active transport a viable option for most folks. And of course everyone blames the planers and not their elected representatives for the problems in their community.

    Our governor has signed legislation that mandates any state-funded road construction/improvement must include bike lanes and areas for pedestrians. I wish projects like this would happen faster, but it’s a start.

  105. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Audley:
    I missed that news! That’s exciting.

    I have the advantage that the city I now live in is very bikable/walkable. The bus system sucks, which is unfortunate, but bike paths and nice sidewalk abound.

    Blah.

    Sitting on the sofa in the atrium, facing the closed door of Boss’ office. This is the accepted manner of seeing the Boss: camp out outside the office.

    I have data. \o/

    Oh, exciting!!

    The PA system just blared that there is a fire alert in [zone]. :D :D :D Whacky fun! :D

  106. says

    I think I’ll start a “Republicans have higher standards … for lying” commentary.

    We’ll start with Jon Kyl, Republican Senator from Arizona.

    “I note that in his response to today’s Supreme Court ruling, President Obama called on Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. I also note that the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill I helped draft in 2007 was killed — in part — by then-Senator Obama,” [Jon Kyl wrote in a press release]

    … First, Obama, as a U.S. senator in 2007, didn’t vote to kill comprehensive immigration reform; he voted for it. Kyl’s version of reality is the opposite of the one the rest of us live in.

    Second, though Kyl bragged yesterday about the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill he “helped draft” five years ago, if we actually look back at the Senate record, we see that the Arizona Republican voted to filibuster the bill. Jon Kyl is falsely accusing Obama of doing what Jon Kyl actually did….

    Link.

  107. Tony... therefore God says

    Ms. Daisy,
    Don’t be gone long. Some of us are fond of you and appreciate having you here. FUCK those people who dismiss the bullying you went through.

  108. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    A few people responded to me, so I’ll go over them one by one.

    @John Morales

    Once again, John, you can fuck off. Your fact-free snark is pointless, and frankly, I don’t give even the ghostly apparition of a shit about your assessment of my sarcasm abilities.

    @Rorschach

    I have “Googled that for me” when it comes to evidence that fat causes, rather than is merely associated with or is co-morbid with these problems. I wasn’t asking you for basic facts, I was asking you to fucking acknowledge that people being fat is a complex epidemiological issue, not just that fatties need to drop the soda.

    Right out the gate, you accused me of bad faith by ignoring my request for some evidence and saying “these discussions never end well”. If that’s how you go about discussions, then fuck you, too.

    @Ms. Daisy Cutter

    Thanks, I really appreciate your comment. I’m glad someone can seem some goddamn complexity in the issue around here.

    @dianne

    Thanks, your reply is exactly what I was looking for from rorschach, but apparently Ah’m too stoopid for him.

    TLDR answer: It’s complicated. Extremes of weight are probably not the most healthy, but the exact pathophysiology is unclear.

    Which is exactly what I was trying to get at. If people think I’m saying that we should all weigh 500 pounds, I’m not. My point was that even as a kid (especially as a kid) when I was just mildly overweight, I was told I was gonna have a heart attack in my teens, that I would surely be dead by thirty, if I didn’t “change my ways”.

    “My ways” happened to be an eating disorder, in this case overeating, which went untreated because I was fat and obviously all fat people eat too much because blah blah moralizing blah.

    My actual health was ignored, along with my actual problem, to talk about imagined ones, or ones based on statistics, or ones based simply on the “scare kids straight” attitude that existed during my childhood and persists today. Just the other day I saw a kid on TV, who wasn’t all that chubby and couldn’t have been older than 12, be told “Your body is like 80% fat! You’re gonna die before your 18th birthday!”

  109. Sili says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform
    25 June 2012 at 6:30 pm

    John “maddog” Hall, one of the main contributors to the Linux kernel, came out of the closet yesterday in his tribute to Alan Turing. The language isn’t un-problematic from our POV (e.g., he uses the term “homosexual” instead of gay throughout), but it’s an interesting essay.

    What’s wrong with “homosexual”?

  111. says

    @dianne #94
    As someone noted above, fructose is taken up differently by the body. One of the effects of this is that HCFS doesn’t trigger the satiety reflex to the extent that sucrose does, because there’s proportionally less glucose in it.
    Also @Audley Z Darkheart #98,
    One major reason why the Nixon agribusiness policies have contributed so much to the current obesity issues it the massive subsidies to corn and soybean producers. This leads to far more corn and soybeans being grown than anyone will eat, so the remainder is processed into micronutrient free, fat and sodium heavy junk foods, sold dirt cheap due to the subsidization. This is a major reason HCFS is so much cheaper than cane sugar. The simplest way I can think to address this involves shifting the funding that now goes to these subsidies over into the food stamps program. The official reason for ag subsidies is to ensure that food prices remain affordable, but expanding the FS program would have the same effect: People now receiving them would get more, and some people who don’t get them now would start. Meanwhile, the prices of processed junk foods would go up relative to the price of fresh or at least less completely corn based foods. I suspect that the absolute prices of the latter would actually go down, since acreage that was profitable to grow subsidized corn on might bring in more money planted in something else. I also recommend the book The end of overeating, by David Kessler, which talks about some of the ways that fast food and processed foods have been deliberately engineered to override our normal appetite.
    Audrey, I definitely also support increased walk/bikeability of cities/suburbs. I’d also like to see a lot more support for local farmer’s markets (I can use food stamps at all of the ones in town, and the prices of produce are pretty close to the store rates, and for much better quality; animal products are pretty pricey, though), and also for gardens in place of yards (exercise and food in one, yay.), at least for those who have yards. For the rest of us, community garden plots being more available would sure be nice. By support here, I mean the city hiring gardening experts who can provide advice/help getting started, possibly host/arrange seed swaps, test soil for free, and similar.
    @ Fossilfishy # 100
    Oh, I hear that, so much.

  114. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Oh, and since dianne mentioned the relative shittiness of the BMI, I’d like to point out this CNN story from 1998 when the BMI was changed. For some reason, despite improved nutrition and shit like that meaning people are getting larger, not just “fatter”, the NIH decided to shift the underweight/normal/overweight/obese categories down, rather than up or leaving them the same.

  115. thunk = ∫ SQRRAWK! d(MQG) says

    Ah, way too much. I just had my second sleep!

    Kat:

    You’ll be alright. Be yourself, first of all. *sends kilogram bar of chocolate*

    Dianne, RahX: Good ideas. The obesity problem is very complex. Of course no shaming’s going to fix that. *insert pontification*

    Ms. Daisy Cutter; Agreed. Why exactly does Rutee think bullying only happens to gay kids?

    I was bullied (and sometimes was a bully) throughout school, presumably because of ASDs (I think), or being somewhat more intelligent than the other kids in school.

    The point remains is that Rutee is full of shit.

    And take a break, Daisy Cutter.

  117. dianne says

    Of course no shaming’s going to fix that.

    Fat shaming’s been around since at least the 1920s. If it were going to work, surely we’d all look like supermodels by now.

  118. dianne says

    Possibly the stupidist “FOR THE CURE” stunt ever

    I don’t know. I kind of like it in a “Plan 9 from Outer Space” sort of way.

  119. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Fat shaming’s been around since at least the 1920s. If it were going to work, surely we’d all look like supermodels by now.

    Indeed, and in fact, I’d go further and say that fat-shaming’s purpose has never truly been to get fat people to lose weight, but instead exists to keep them from participating fully in society.

  123. dianne says

    @119: Well, if looked at that way, one might say that it’s working just fine. I certainly know people who refuse to do certain things that they enjoy because they’re “too fat”.

  125. opposablethumbs says

    Virtual chocolate and internet hugs if acceptable to Katherine and to FossilFishy.

  126. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    *hugs* and *chocolate* and *puppies* for Katherine and FossilFishy

  128. says

    Indeed, and in fact, I’d go further and say that fat-shaming’s purpose has never truly been to get fat people to lose weight, but instead exists to keep them from participating fully in society.

    It’s purpose is to drive consumption not to slow it.

  129. dianne says

    @Dalillama: Good point about HFCS. Fructose is sweeter per mole than glucose, so it probably seemed like a good idea initially to use it…less needed, so fewer calories, right? But it does look like it does something unpleasant to the metabolic system. Maybe we should stuff all the corn into people’s gas tanks instead.

  131. says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter; Agreed. Why exactly does Rutee think bullying only happens to gay kids?

    Good question, seeing as the basis for my bullying was being hispanic. It’s almost as if I didn’t say that.

  132. dianne says

    Of note: High cacao content chocolate may actually be good for your heart. Go for the 70-85% cacao stuff. From a fair trade supplier.

  133. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    It’s purpose is to drive consumption not to slow it.

    Ing, what does this mean?

  134. dianne says

    @130: Don’t worry, that was meant to be sarcastic. It’s not a very good fuel either. Corn is tasty when picked fresh and eaten at once, but otherwise not sure what it’s good for. It really should be an exotic vegetable, more like chard, than a staple food.

  137. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Popcorn?

    Again this is personal preference, but I think the only thing I’d find popcorn useful for is an environmentally-friendly alternative to packing peanuts.

  138. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    *kittens* and *red pandas* and *otters* for Katherine!

  139. A. R says

    Corn: Grain corn is an incredibly useful commodity, and HFCS and corn starch aren’t the only products it is used for. But yes, corn shouldn’t be in everything I buy at the store.

  141. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    *gives Katherine a gila monster*

    Wakey wakey! I brought something horribly un-cute.

  146. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    *flail*

    Oooh, I know!

    *grabs a transphobe, ties them up with a big ribbon*

    There! NOT cute.

  149. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    *Cathy Brennan starts charging around*

    No! Bad transphobe! *punts into the dungeon*

  150. dianne says

    Special delivery for Katherine Lorraine, one hagfish. I defy you to find a cute hagfish.

  151. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Hey Katherine, what about Kinkajous?

    I’ve liked those little guys ever since I read somewhere that captive ones apparently have a taste for alcohol (I’m assuming owing to their natural fruit diet… very likely they come across fermenting stuff occasionally in the rainforest) and can become ‘surly’.

    A surly Kinkajou is just too cute to imagine.

  157. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    *skips in all excitedly, stops in her tracks*
    What was Cathy Brennan doing here? *suspicious*

  158. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Well, we had a “find something resolutely non cute” contest, Cipher.

    Don’t worry, she’s been punted into the dungeon.

  160. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Seriously though, Cathy Brennan is an awful person. Did you hear about how she outed a teenager? Nasty.

  161. A. R says

    [A. R. comes into thread pushing a heavy Metallica box on wheels, a muffled “God Hates Fags” is heard]

    [Panting]

    Here, I caught Fred Phelps. I win the uncute contest.

  162. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Yes. She is horrid. And she is ALL OVER MY INTERNETS lately. (Not really ALL OVER, but (as you’re probably aware) she got obsessed with Natalie for a while because transphobe and then was bothering Kitty Stryker because kink-hater, so I had the charming opportunity to be really disgusted by her for a while.)

  163. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Mmm, I’m not sure. Cathy Brennan vs. Fred Phelps?

    Phelps is near-universally reviled. Brennan actually has people listening to her. I’d argue that this power makes Brennan less cute.

  166. A. R says

    [A. R. drags in a gigantic cage]

    [Panting]

    Here’s the Slimepit, complete with ScentedNectar and Hoggle. Checkmate.

  170. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Okay, that was supposed to be a reference to the slimepit, not the mice.

  173. A. R says

    thunk: Didn’t you see those cages over there? [Points to Slimepit and Fred Phelps cages]

  174. Happiestsadist says

    Rutee @ #131: While I didn’t immediately pick up on it, what you said there really can be seen as saying exactly that. I get what you were actually saying, but it did just sound like “Only LGBT kids get bullied”. While straight/cis people have been hijacking the LGBT anti-bullying efforts, there are a damn lot of reasons for bullies to pick their targets, almost all of which are reinforcing larger institutional oppressions.