Comments

  1. Predator Handshake says

    A question for the new thread: I’ve been challenged by a friend of mine to come up with a few different comedies that are airing right now and pass the Bechdel test. I don’t watch a ton of TV, and I could only come up with Parks and Recreation. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

  2. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Reposted from tail end of previous thread:

    carlie: he said that Graveyard Book could never have been set in America because (paraphrasing) we only have a couple hundred years of cemeteries maximum and then there’s just a few dead Indians and then nothing. (I specifically recall “a few dead Indians”.)

    Like with the “bitch” thing, for me it wasn’t so much that he slipped up and said something thoughtlessly racist, it was that his response to criticism was a load of sniffy “what, hdu”.

    “Oh, you like him?! Ew.”

    Oh yeah, I hope *my* comment didn’t come off like that! As I say, I really love most of his writing myself. I just … try to buy the books used, and don’t read his blog or anything.

  3. Predator Handshake says

    I misspoke when I was detailing the TV show thing; the shows don’t have to be currently on air, but available either on broadcast or through streaming on Hulu or Netflix.

  4. says

    Thanks!

    ***

    This issue brings up a longstanding debate within the Bigfoot community:

    The… Very sad.

    Would be ethical to shoot and kill a Bigfoot?…

    …The point is, you simply can’t know for sure if the mysterious, burly figure you have lined up in your sights is the real beast, or a bear or someone’s pet – or, even worse, just a person in a gorilla suit.

    Uh, if you’re even going to discuss this Important Moral Hypothetical Question, you should make it very clear to these people that they should not ever be shooting at anything they haven’t positively identified and that isn’t attacking them. FFS.

  5. Richard Austin says

    @We Are Ing:

    For just one example of why I think my history may give me a different view of the picture than you; I can tell you for Certain that there are some very social justice, gay positive, egalitarian, liberal churches…who would rather work with a conservative fire and brim stone preacher than an atheist.

    I’ve certainly encountered that. My assumption (with that group, at least, but I think it may be general) is that it’s a case of shoring up the weakest points: most people have no problem with someone being nice and happy and egalitarian (even if they disagree with it) so it rarely has to be “justified”, but religion is so shoddy a foundation that the people who support it need to “stick together” or the whole house collapses. If it’s possible to be nice and happy and pleasant and ethically responsible without religion, most of these egalitarian churches really don’t have a reason to exist.

    Perish (and parish) the thought.

    (It could also be a covert marketing technique – “see? we’re religious without all the nasty crap!” – but I’ve never seen it come across that way.)

  6. sisu says

    adding: 30 Rock is currently airing and past seasons are available on netflix. Arrested Development also passes and is available on Netflix.

  7. consciousness razor says

    Walton:

    You’re right, though, that I should have made clearer that I was referring specifically to the false empirical claim that religious and moderate people fail to stand up to the fundamentalists.

    But it isn’t false that “religious and moderate people do fail to stand up to the fundamentalists.” A fraction of them do so every now and then, in some specific cases. To me, it definitely looks like a general failure on the part of liberal religions.

    Although I don’t think it’s a reason to refrain from working with progressive and liberal religious groups on areas of agreement, or from supporting them when they do good things.

    How specific are you going to get about these “areas of agreement” and “good things”? Consider a hypothetical religious organization which has significant political support and which agrees with your stance on the death penalty. They think it should be abolished, because if it isn’t, Santa won’t give them as many Christmas presents. Whatever works, you might say: you should still support them even though they’re doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

    However, they also claim that, because of personal revelations from their deity or obscure nonsense in their magic books, harsher sentences are justifiable when non-believers commit a crime. Are they still your allies? Do you support them or not? If you try to carefully go about changing their stance on non-believers without breaking this alliance, what do you say to them? How do you justify your position?

  8. says

    @Walton

    Your case with the Angelican split sort of proves it. Where did those conservatives come from? the same source as the liberal ones. Liberal churches can produce fundamentalists because it’s in the flipping book. If you want to see exactly how liberals support conservatives, ask them why they don’t edit the bible to remove the horrible stuff they disagree with.

    Seriously, I have never seen so much flame as asking liberal Christians why they don’t just remove the rape laws from their books…they hate those verses themselves. The answer is that protecting the sanctity of the book is more important than the bad lessons.

    See also why I don’t post on Slacktavist anymore.

  9. Richard Austin says

    Relevant to the religion conversation, if only tangentally:

    Religious people tend to feel better about themselves and their lives, but a new study finds that this benefit may only hold in places where everyone else is religious, too.

    According to the new study of almost 200,000 people in 11 European countries, people who are religious have higher self-esteem and better psychological adjustment than the non-religious only in countries where belief in religion is common. In more secular societies, the religious and the non-religious are equally well-off.

    The original blog doesn’t have the actual results data, though. Poo on them.

  10. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ birgerjohansson

    biofuels

    The problem with energy, in my opinion, is what it allows us to do to our environment (and by extension our societies). We are seeing the problem the wrong way round. It is not so much about alternative energy as energy efficiency. Alternative energy still leads to antisocial developments such as urban sprawl and poor use of land resources. Anything that is driven by a “business as usual” attitude is not going to work.

    It is not just about air or water pollution. It is not about designing the environmentally friendly SUV. This is because contemporary private vehicles are in and of themselves a form of pollution. The solution is way more complicated than the technicians out there seem to acknowledge.

    @ Ing

    [re: NSA sex with women and love with men.]

    This was the regular feature of ancient Greek (eg: Euboean) culture.

  11. says

    This was the regular feature of ancient Greek (eg: Euboean) culture.

    And there’s romantic stories of it in the Chinese courts and Samurai classes. I have a book of Samurai homoerotic romances.

    IIRC the cut sleeves imagery comes from a related story where an Emperor’s male lover fell asleep on their robe and the emperor cut off the sleeve rather than wake them.

  12. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    ood to see that Ben Radford is back to doing what he does best, addressing the crucial issue of whether one should shoot Bigfoot:

    Hummm…… bigfoot bacon

  13. says

    Thinking like a mormon missionary:

    Gift of Tongues is a crazy amazing blessing, especially when you get it from an Apostle of the Lord. Yea, we had an apostle speak to us. So sick. So we are sitting in our Tuesday night devotional, like 5th row cus we know shortcuts haha, anyway we’re all noticing all this stupid stuff like how it isnt showing who the speaker is on the slideshow, theres an extra security guard by the door, a lot more old people were there, so we’re hyping it up sooooo much, kinda expecting it to be a letdown like a 70 or something hahahah. So Richard G Scott walks it. It was so crazy. I just got the chills as I was typing that. The spirit was so strong. In the middle of his talk he asked, how many of you are learning languages, so like half the place raised their hand, then he said: okay well as a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, I give you the gift of tongues. WHAT! It was so cool. Like I felt it hit me. Like a flipping wave. So crazy. I can’t even describe it. So needless to say Spanish is going a lot better now.

    Another amazing experience I had this week was seeing one of my best friends gain a testimony for the first time. I think I told you about Elder Yergensen last week, anyway he never really had a testimony and he was just here hoping to get one. He was really close to leaving but I kinda helped him stay and told him to start reading the Book of Mormon and whatnot and praying. So hes in his TRC lesson on Thursday night which is like a “real” investigator, and he starts sharing his testimony of family and it totally just hits him. Like this kid is a huge football player who never crys, and he just started balling.

    Note the cult-like worship of an exploitive, older con man.

    Note the Moments of Mormon Madness these young men are encouraged to develop, to cherish.

    Mitt Romney was a missionary. I think the experience can lead to permanent damage. And bad spelling.

    Excerpted text is from the blog of Elder Jeff Given:
    http://elderjeffgiven.blogspot.com/2009/09/visit-from-richard-g-scott.html

  14. says

    My Asian mythology is just enough to be hilariously wrong though, so one of our actual knowed persons here should correct/clarify.

    ((Some characters and a few stories memorized/learned))

  15. says

    ood to see that Ben Radford is back to doing what he does best, addressing the crucial issue of whether one should shoot Bigfoot:

    If they shoot it’s a felony, he is head of the FBI

  16. says

    Shoot just realized that last joke is really obscure

    ((in Futurama there’s a line “Then again everyone said {BLANK} was a myth and now he’s head of the FBI”, IIRC the original was bigfoot but reruns changed it to toothfairy because they later had shown bigfoot to be a normal animal.))

  17. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    Concerning the video, thumbs up for not having the generic melancholic (TM) minimal piano music track.

  18. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ Ing

    the cut sleeves imagery comes from a related story where an Emperor’s male lover fell asleep on their robe and the emperor cut off the sleeve rather than wake them.

    Waaaayyyyyy cool. Did you know the story of mohammad doing the same. (Because his cat was sleeping on his sleeve. Love comes in many forms.)

  19. says

    A largely derogatory idiomatic term for homosexuality in Chinese is duanxiu zhi pi (斷袖之癖, literally, “fetish of the cut sleeve”), derived from an episode involving Dong and Emperor Ai. They often slept together on the same bed, which in ancient China was not necessarily an indication of a sexual relationship. One afternoon, after Emperor Ai woke up from a nap, Dong was still sleeping, and Emperor Ai’s sleeve was stuck under Dong’s head. Rather than waking Dong up, Emperor Ai cut off his sleeve to allow Dong to continue to sleep without disturbance.

    Found the source.

    Interesting it notes that the phrase at least if not the imagery is derogatory. Can any Chinese speakers confirm for me or tell me if the imagery itself is offensive?

  20. Richard Austin says

    Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen:

    Waaaayyyyyy cool. Did you know the story of mohammad doing the same. (Because his cat was sleeping on his sleeve. Love comes in many forms.)

    That could merely have been self-preservation. Have you ever had to deal with a groggy, pissed-off cat?

  21. says

    In summer 1 BC, Emperor Ai suddenly died without an heir. Dong Xian, as the commander of the armed forces, was the most powerful official at court, but he was paralyzed by this sudden event. Grand Empress Dowager Wang took decisive action; she proceeded to Weiyang Palace and seized the imperial seal. She then summoned Dong, who was caught by surprise, and was unable to act. Grand Empress Dowager Wang summoned her nephew Wang Mang back to the palace as well and transferred the command of the imperial guard from Dong to Wang.

    Wang Mang then ordered the palace secretary to issue an article of impeachment against Dong, accusing Dong of failing to attend to Emperor Ai when he was ill. Dong was prohibited from entering the palace, and was relieved of his post the next day. That night, he and his wife committed suicide, and were buried quickly. Wang Mang disinterred him to make sure that he was in fact dead, and then had him reburied within a prison. The entire Dong clan was exiled to Hepu (合浦, in modern Zhanjiang, Guangdong) and their assets forfeited to the imperial treasury.

    ProtoSantorum?

  22. numenaster says

    Following on to the tanning question:

    I’m one of those fair-skinned people, and in my normal life I do wear sunscreen and big hats in summer, but I’m going to Hawaii for a vacation soon. I’ve been thinking of going to a tanning salon so I can get a base coat that will allow me to go snorkeling without fear of sunburn, since it’s my understanding that even waterproof sunscreen isn’t really. Can I get some input on my plan from the assembled wisdom?

  23. Richard Austin says

    Following on to the tanning question:

    I’m one of those fair-skinned people, and in my normal life I do wear sunscreen and big hats in summer, but I’m going to Hawaii for a vacation soon. I’ve been thinking of going to a tanning salon so I can get a base coat that will allow me to go snorkeling without fear of sunburn, since it’s my understanding that even waterproof sunscreen isn’t really. Can I get some input on my plan from the assembled wisdom?

    If I recall correctly, a “base tan” is useless. It’s like 4 or 5 SPF if that.

    You can get a light, loose shirt to snorkel in; people do it all the time, and it’ll prevent (or at least hinder) burning. Be more worried about the backs of your knees and legs, however – that’s where people tend to burn when snorkeling.

    I think there are actually some decent waterproof sunscreens, but it’s not something I’ve ever really had to worry about. You can probably also call the company running the tours (if you’re planning any), as I imagine they have to deal with this a lot.

  24. Private Ogvorbis, OM says

    numenaster:

    Take me and Wife with you and, between the two of us, we will make sure that you are shaded by a parasol at all times.

    If not that, possibly a tanning lotion coupled with lots and lots and lots and lots of sunscreen while in Hawai’i?

  25. Rey Fox says

    Arrested Development also passes and is available on Netflix.

    Ehh, barely. The only three female principal characters don’t really interact much at all.

  26. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    I’m extremely pale (comes with being a Swedish/Scottish mutt with anemia). I’m the person at the beach wearing pants, long sleeves, and a wide-brimmed hat.
    I do not tan in the sun. I burn. I still have scars on my shoulders from the second (or perhaps third) degree sunburn I got at 12 or 13.

    Anyway!
    I’ve been away for a few days. I drove for awhile (and met Carlie! woo!) and then got sick. Boo. Yesterday, while in the throughs of a breaking fever I caught a severe case of CLEAN ALL THE THINGS. So, I cleaned my entire fucking apartment. The kitty was perturbed. She was like, “I need to use the litterbox, silly monkey, why are you scrubbing it?”
    Incidentally, am I the only one who finds a breaking fever more unpleasant than actually being feverish? Between the sweating and the racing mind and heart, it’s damned unpleasant. At least I can sleep through a fever, but a breaking fever makes me want to run around.

  27. Pteryxx says

    re waterproof sunscreen: it does stay on in water *better* than non. Just re-apply every few hours. also, seconding the recommendation for a light shirt underwater – works beautifully.

  28. Richard Austin says

    numenastor:
    This link talks about the new FDA guidelines regarding sunscreen.

    Specifically, you want to look for a sunscreen that is resistant for 40 or 80 minutes in water (or whatever) rather than “waterproof”. You also want one that is “broad spectrum” specifically. So, something like this claims to be (not an endorsement, just found one that lists as both “broad spectrum” and “water resistant for up to 80 minutes”).

  29. sisu says

    Rey Fox: true. but it does pass, and Arrested Development’s hilarious.

    I personally think the Bechdel test is pretty silly, for what it’s worth, but I suppose it’s an effective shorthand.

  30. Pteryxx says

    re breaking fever: but the POWER OF HYPER can be useful. I played one of the best hockey games of my life with a breaking fever; I was on fire, hyper-aware, inexhaustible.

    Afterwards I was too sick to get out of bed for the next week. It was worth it. *thumbsup*

  31. sisu says

    I wish I could edit my comments! Was going to recommend How I Met Your Mother, currently airing with past seasons on Netflix.

  32. Richard Austin says

    This isn’t going to ruffle any feathers, not at all…

    The research finds that children with low intelligence are more likely to hold prejudiced attitudes as adults. These findings point to a vicious cycle, according to lead researcher Gordon Hodson, a psychologist at Brock University in Ontario. Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice, Hodson wrote in an email to LiveScience.

    Further down the article:

    In another study, this one in the United States, Hodson and Busseri compared 254 people with the same amount of education but different levels of ability in abstract reasoning. They found that what applies to racism may also apply to homophobia. People who were poorer at abstract reasoning were more likely to exhibit prejudice against gays. As in the U.K. citizens, a lack of contact with gays and more acceptance of right-wing authoritarianism explained the link.

    Incoming shitstorm in 3… 2… 1…

  33. KG says

    This issue brings up a longstanding debate within the Bigfoot community:

    “Are ‘humans’ real, or is the whole thing a hoax?”

    (I didn’t look back for the context.)

  34. Irene Delse says

    Tales from the “it gets better, but very slowly” department:

    Rrrring, rrrring.

    Voice on the phone: “Oh, hai, it’s Sibling.”

    Me: “Hello to you too.”

    “Just calling to remind you we are invited to dinner by Friend From Work tomorrow. Here’s the address.”

    “Thnx. Will be there.”

    “BTW, don’t be surprised but he lives with his friend.”

    “And?”

    “Boyfriend, see.”

    “Uh, why shouldn’t he?”

    “Just to tell you not to be surprised.”

    *rolls eyes*

    “Thanks, but I’m sure that’s not exactly a novelty, even for a forty-something like me.”

  35. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    WRT the Bechdel test: it doesn’t bother me when a particular movie fails the test. Some movies just don’t. Whatever.
    What bothers me is that if I look at the total output of the major Hollywood studios in a given year, a tiny fraction of films pass the test. THAT is the problem.

  36. numenaster says

    @Ogvorbis #29:

    What an elegant solution–I can’t believe I didn’t think of that before! The condo has a spare bedroom, too!

    @Richard Austin #35:

    Thanks for the pointer to the new guidelines. Now that I know that, I know what to look for when I get there, and I already have a high-SPF long sleeved shirt that dries fast, I guess I’ll be wearing it in the water.

    Dropping the tanning salon plans frees up $ for other stuff, so bonus!

  37. says

    Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice, Hodson wrote in an email to LiveScience.

    I want to argue that it’s the other way around. conservative ideologies and groups that stress hierarchy and resistance to change retard intelligence because they install mechanisms for rejecting new data and avoiding challenges.

  38. Alukonis, metal ninja says

    Re: Snorkeling

    There are shirts they sell for surfing to minimize board chafe, they also block the UV rays. Swimming in them is super easy and they dry nice and fast, I totally recommend.

    @Ms Daisy Cutter

    I get that you weren’t explicitly *calling* me creepy, but I felt like it was implied and I got upset. I am not really in control of my emotions right now and the comparison to someone who sleeps with prostitutes because they “pay them to leave” really hurt. My whole reason for talking about this here was that I don’t want to be an asshole, and I tried to explain why this is hard for me, to maybe use people here as a sort of sounding board. And then you come in with some crap about how if I were a man talking about women that everyone would call me a creepy douchebag, which sounded to me like a snide remark that people are only being supportive because I’m a woman, but really my behavior is creepy and awful. That is the impression that I got.

    I don’t even see why you replied to my comment if you were just going to say my behavior was creepy, and then be all “oh no I wasn’t calling YOU creepy!”

  39. SallyStrange (Bigger on the Inside), Spawn of Cthulhu says

    “Community” is a good comedy that often passes the Bechdel test.

    I hear “Two Broke Girls” is funny, and since the two main characters are women, it probably passes the test, but it’s also super racist at times.

  40. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Ing, I’d guess that the two phenomena reinforce each other.
    Also, don’t discount the influence of needing to toe a line (for the sake of eating, housing, etc) to stifle curiosity.

  41. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    We have a local Bigfoot loon? My but the amenities here are complete.

  42. says

    @Kristinc

    I think the joke was that we don’t. Cause you know….few people care enough. unlike religion…which is totally not what skepticism is about.

  43. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    We have a local Bigfoot loon? My but the amenities here are complete.

    Oh yes. Not sure if he changed his name or not but it was Alan Kellogg.

  44. Irene Delse says

    consciousness razor #9:

    But it isn’t false that “religious and moderate people do fail to stand up to the fundamentalists.” A fraction of them do so every now and then, in some specific cases.

    And sadly, when this minority speaks up, they are often attacked by both the fundamentalists and by non-theists who until then hadn’t been paying attention to their existence, but take them to task for not having spoken before, or not loud enough, or just for still operating within a religious framework. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. The most recent example was the threads about the attacks on Irshad Manji on FtB and the RDF forums.

  45. Pteryxx says

    Another recent example is the RI religious leaders who called for Christians to leave Jessica Ahlquist alone.

  46. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Is there actually such a thing as “stomach flu” or is that just a euphemism for food poisoning? I thought flu was a respiratory disease.

  47. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Predator Handshake,
    Damn it! Sally beat me to Community, which is (rumored to be) coming back this spring. Futurama passes, too, I think*.

    That’s about the extent of it, though. I really don’t watch many comedies– sitcoms are cliched and predictable and I cannot stand anything with a laugh track.

    *Two female characters who interact beyond talking about the main love interest, right?

  48. KG says

    This has coincided with me becoming more and more uncomfortable with the organized atheist movement, largely for the reasons of Islamophobia and tolerance of anti-Muslim bigotry that we were discussing above. Pharyngula is thankfully an exception to that, but in much of the atheist blogosphere it seems to go unchecked. – walton

    Likewise. I think Ed Brayton’s blog is another exception; the switch to FTB has led to me spending significant time there.

    … As much as I click on your nym, it does not connect me through to a blog. When will this be remedied? – theophontes

    I’m immensely flattered! Probably when I retire, which could be anywhere from a few months to a few years. At present, I spend more time than I can really afford here.

  49. Private Ogvorbis, OM says

    Where is our local Bigfoot loon?

    I spent a week in the Bigfoot Motel in Willow Creek, CA. Does that count?

    I have been to multiple fires in ‘Bigfoot Country’ – Willow Creek, Hoopa, Orleans, Forks of Salmon, Happy Camp – and cannot figure out how something that big could have possibly remained hidden during the gold rush — when every creek and ridge and mountain was prospected as miners looked for the legendary mother load from which the placer supposedly came. They found neither.

    Does that make me the Bigfoot Loon? Or just an ordinary loon?

  50. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Ing,
    “Technically counts” is good enough for me! BECAUSE I LOVE FUTURAMA.

  51. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Irene Delse, do you have specific examples of Irshad Manji being taken to task here at FtB? And I don’t mean fair criticism. Or is that your problem, the criticism? Should I applaud her? I think she’s doing some good, certainly, but she’s not beyond reproach for her clear pretzeling of logic and attempts to reconcile herself with Islam or Islam with herself. Can you even provide evidence that people here didn’t know about her existence until presently?

    I, for one, have known about Irshad Manji since I was a child. I’ve criticised her for a long time and not just from my perspective as an atheist, but from my perspective as a gay too and if you think I’ve written anything taking her to task over her ridiculous stance on religion, you ought to hear me go on about her in regards to her religion and queer identity. I’ll tell you right now, she’s not helping and that dovetails with her stance on religion.

    Until you get specific, I am reasonably going to assume that you include me in your generalisations and I take exception to them. I think you’re wrong. Put up or find some perspective on criticism and stop whining that the poor moderate Muslim just can’t get a break, ’cause at least she’s trying. That’s bloody annoying.

  52. says

    Not really been up to posting a lot lately (lots of personal/family shit I don’t want to air here), but I wanted to do a drive by post for some advice or recommendations if people have them.

    I’m thinking I need to find a therapist, specifically one who can prescribe meds since I need to start treating my ADHD again, but I find that I have no idea how to find someone who won’t look at my recent depression as caused by being an atheist/liberal/feminist whatever since let’s face it, the LDS Church is in everything around here.

    Any ideas on how to winnow down health care providers in Salt Lake on these criteria?

  53. consciousness razor says

    And sadly, when this minority speaks up, they are often attacked by both the fundamentalists and by non-theists who until then hadn’t been paying attention to their existence, but take them to task for not having spoken before, or not loud enough, or just for still operating within a religious framework.

    Are you saying we shouldn’t take them to task for not speaking up loudly enough, or for operating within a religious framework? I think we should. I’m not impressed when someone supports a particular progressive issue but fails miserably in regard to other issues. I may give them partial credit, but that doesn’t mean they’ll get a passing grade.

  54. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Oh yes. Not sure if he changed his name or not but it was Alan Kellogg.

    He went by Mythusmage for a while. I think he has since migrated to another nym.

  55. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Slignot, I don’t have any specific suggestions for you, but perhaps you’d look into therapy or psychiatric treatment with someone who advertises as being gay friendly. In my experience, psychiatrists and psychologists who say they work with gay people or are themselves gay, tend to be less religious or at least more open.

    I’m unsure of how true that would be in Salt Lake City, but I should think that gays or people who work with gays would be significantly less likely to be religious. I’m thinking that there would be deep divides.

  56. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    He went by Mythusmage for a while. I think he has since migrated to another nym.

    Thaaaaaaat’s right. I should remember that will all the nonsense of his I responded to.

  57. says

    @Thomathy, that’s much more likely to be true than not, and one of my google searches was along those lines, but they were more specialized resources: couples, youth services, transgender support. It was driving me fucking nuts, and half the links were for churches in the state that wouldn’t hate you. *sigh*

    I’m still looking, but even the damned UT Coalition of Reason doesn’t link resources like atheist friendly therapists.

  58. Predator Handshake says

    Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I can’t believe I didn’t think of Community because it’s my 2nd favorite show, trailing Parks and Rec only slightly. I haven’t seen every episode of 30 Rock, but I know that some episodes pass and some might not. Two Broke Girls is totally out; not only for the problems with racism mentioned already, but I also watched the first couple of episodes and didn’t find it very funny. It really bums me out to see Kat Dennings wasted like that.

    Dr. Audley, I’m the same way about laugh tracks. Parks and Rec and Community both let the jokes be and I think that’s a big part of why I like them so much.

  59. leighshryock says

    Sent PZ an email about this already, see if it makes the front page, but, anyways, domestic terrorism in Arkansas, summary:

    An Arkansas political campaign manager was shocked to discover his family pet with one side of its head bashed in — and the word “liberal” scribbled across the corpse in paint.

  60. andyo says

    “Community” is a good comedy that often passes the Bechdel test.
    I hear “Two Broke Girls” is funny, and since the two main characters are women, it probably passes the test, but it’s also super racist at times.

    Community is awesome. So is 30 Rock. But nothing will ever be as awesome as Arrested Development. FFS, I’ve watched every episode like 5 times or more and I’ve still found new jokes. It’s not only the writing. The cast, the acting, the editing and camerawork, every little facial expression, everything is just perfection.

    Re: 2 Broke Girls. Now that you mention it, the other day there was nothing on so I thought I might watch one of those CBS comedies and the theme was that the ex-rich girl had just found out that coupons are awesome. So she went into a coupon grocery-shopping spree and had to fight the “coupon queen” or some such, who was (drumroll) a sassy black lady. I didn’t notice the racism right there though cause I was distracted by the absolute lack of funny of the show.

  61. andyo says

    By the way, as an Asian (and Latino) living in LA, I find this from that link spot-on, after having watched that dreck.

    I don’t usually watch 2 Broke Girls, and I fully recognize that this show is not, you know, created with an Asian dude living in L.A. as the target demographic, but rather the much larger, and definitely more lucrative, audience of Americans for whom the diversity of New York represents a dangerous and head-scratching Other.

  62. Irene Delse says

    @ Thomathy:

    Irene Delse, do you have specific examples of Irshad Manji being taken to task here at FtB?

    What, haven’t you read the part of PZ’s post where his comment about a Muslim woman who’s standing up to Jihadists is to claim that she “lacks courage” because she doesn’t let go of faith altogether?

    And then there were some of the usual knee-jerk “everything in Islam is horrible, why don’t we ban it already” in the comments. All the thread was not like that, thankfully, but it was a lot worse at RDF.

    @ CR:

    Are you saying we shouldn’t take them to task for not speaking up loudly enough, or for operating within a religious framework? I think we should. I’m not impressed when someone supports a particular progressive issue but fails miserably in regard to other issues. I may give them partial credit, but that doesn’t mean they’ll get a passing grade.

    If you’re talking about the kind of lukewarm, wishy-washy, partly progressive but still mostly dinosaurian theism that is often the bulk of mainstream religion, I’m with you.

    In the case of Manji, though, as with other progressive Muslims, we have someone who actively tries to reform Islam from the inside, who basically says that it shouldn’t be defined by the extremists and the conservatives. I’d say it’s a worthwhile endeavour, if only for the sake of a billion human beings who are nominally Muslims and deserve other options than the “back to the 7th Century” Islamism that we too often see.

    Maybe it’s too optimistic… But who knows? Until the Enlightenment, Christianity was about as bad, with the whole gamut of holy wars, forced conversions, and the persecution of heretics, freethinkers, homosexuals, and generally any woman who failed to be silent and obedient to the patriarchy.

  63. says

    @Irene

    Full quote

    there might be much to admire in her work, as she’s another theist who has taken a step away from the dogma and tribalism of fundamentalism, but she hasn’t yet had the courage or intellectual integrity to take another step and free herself of the folly of faith.

    The courage is in relation to intellectual integrity not in standing up to extremists. In that sense she is brave.

  64. says

    Maybe it’s too optimistic… But who knows? Until the Enlightenment, Christianity was about as bad, with the whole gamut of holy wars, forced conversions, and the persecution of heretics, freethinkers, homosexuals, and generally any woman who failed to be silent and obedient to the patriarchy.

    How’d that enlightenment turn out btw?

    *holds up arms and skids back down the slide*

  65. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Americans for whom the diversity of New York represents a dangerous and head-scratching Other.

    This jumped out at me. I grew up in the country. There are more pigs than people in the county.

    One of my siblings lives and works in New York City. Apparently there are people back home who are all o_O about this because … something they won’t really articulate but I’m guessing boils down to (1) black people! (2) brown people! (3) Jews! (4) ZOMG TERRORISTS ZOMG.

    The other thing that gets me – this goes back to what Ing was saying earlier – is that many of these people are downright PROUD of their narrow-mindedness.

  66. says

    I joke, I mostly agree with you. But I think we can do even better and not have to deal with a festering of endemic religionosiphy that boils over again.

  67. Private Ogvorbis, OM says

    . . . we have someone who actively tries to reform Islam from the inside, who basically says that it shouldn’t be defined by the extremists and the conservatives. I’d say it’s a worthwhile endeavour, if only for the sake of a billion human beings who are nominally Muslims and deserve other options than the “back to the 7th Century” Islamism that we too often see.

    Insert Christianity for Islam, and Christians for Muslims, and ask the same question. Why have moderate and liberal Christians not edited out the murder, mayhem and misogyny from the Bible and reclaimed Christianity from the extemists and conservatives? Or does that question only work for Muslims?

  68. says

    Ugh, all of a sudden I feel sad, sick and awful. Yeah something happened that disappointed me but all of a sudden it’s like an actual illness.

    Insert Christianity for Islam, and Christians for Muslims, and ask the same question. Why have moderate and liberal Christians not edited out the murder, mayhem and misogyny from the Bible and reclaimed Christianity from the extemists and conservatives? Or does that question only work for Muslims?

    As I said before, try suggesting that they should. I am apparently just like Rush Limbaugh.

  69. Private Ogvorbis, OM says

    As I said before, try suggesting that they should. I am apparently just like Rush Limbaugh.

    Ing:

    I am sorry. I thought what I wrote made sense. Forget I wrote it. I am, apparently, completely off my game today and am giving up.

  70. Pteryxx says

    Ing said this earlier:

    Liberal churches can produce fundamentalists because it’s in the flipping book. If you want to see exactly how liberals support conservatives, ask them why they don’t edit the bible to remove the horrible stuff they disagree with.

    Seriously, I have never seen so much flame as asking liberal Christians why they don’t just remove the rape laws from their books…they hate those verses themselves. The answer is that
    protecting the sanctity of the book is more important than the bad lessons.

    …I saved that quote in my quotefile, because it’s important.

  71. says

    Which is why I tend to think such efforts can only succeed so far. They’re saying “hey don’t listen to this book” while at the same time going “THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT SACRED BOOK!!!!!!”

    Don’t think of pink elephants!

  72. consciousness razor says

    I’d say it’s a worthwhile endeavour, if only for the sake of a billion human beings who are nominally Muslims and deserve other options than the “back to the 7th Century” Islamism that we too often see.

    Those aren’t the only two options of course. Along with atheism, there are thousands of other religions, or one could invent a new religion. These billion people (or anyone else) don’t need to practice Islam (or any other religion) in order to preserve what is ethically and culturally valuable. In whatever ways her liberal form of Islam is better than average, or better than fundamentalists or terrorists, it isn’t because of her faith. I simply don’t accept faith claims. They’re invalid and need to be criticized as such.

  73. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    That’s the real trap that most Christians (of all stripes) have locked themselves into.
    Even if they’re not Biblical literalists, once they start down the path that starts with “the Bible is the Word of God, the final Revelation,” they’re stuck having to explain away the rape, the violence, the bigotry, all of that shit.
    If they’d start with the assumption that maybe (just maybe) the Bible is wrong (not mistranslated, not misinterpreted, WRONG) or that the writings of a more enlightened time can supersede its ancient blatherings, they’d be in much better shape today.

  74. Irene Delse says

    @ Ing, I adressed this in my comment on that thread, yesterday. I’ll just repost the relevant part:

    I love you, PZ, but here you’re confusing a personal preference with non-faith as an absolute moral compass, and that’s as irrational as believing in unicorns. Courage has nothing to do with faith or unfaith. If you had just written “she hasn’t yet the intellectual integrity” or “isn’t yet rational enough”, OK, that would be fair. Because it is a question of rational thinking and being consistent in intellectual matters.

    But courage? That’s another thing entirely, operating at gut level, that you can’t routinely deny to theists just because their ideas are not the same as yours.

    […] And why wouldn’t someone harassed like that, and not for the first time, by violent hateful religious bigots, just be frightened out of publishing altogether and just retreat in their private home? Or even associate religion with hate? Would “letting go” of faith by that route be an act of courage or of human frailty, comprehensible as it would be?

    I’ll add that faith (as opposed to religious practice) is a personal thing. There are people who lose it or come to it late in life, others just never believed, even as children, even if from a time they went through the motions for familial and social reasons. There’s good reason to think that it may be as subjective as a feel for art or music, or a sense of humour.

    From what PZ writes, he’s one of those who never had the taste for the sacred. Good for him! But other people do have that inner urge, that feeling, and no amount of reason will convince them out of it. Think about Martin Gardner, who was a deist while acknowledging that it was irrational and subjective for a sceptic like him, but still said that faith was something important on a personal level.

    And then, there’s the whole issue of religion as a community and as part of someone’s identity, and the need when you’ve tasted of enlightenment to help others in your community even a little way along that road.

    That’s why when theists try to fashion their religion into something more progressive, humanistic and inclusive, I’d rather say “Good for them” than “oh, they’re not really, smart then”.

  75. says

    I’ll add that faith (as opposed to religious practice) is a personal thing. There are people who lose it or come to it late in life, others just never believed, even as children, even if from a time they went through the motions for familial and social reasons. There’s good reason to think that it may be as subjective as a feel for art or music, or a sense of humour.

    Well then whose to say Bin Laden is wrong right? I mean it was right for him.

    Why are you privileging faith? It really is just socially accepted cognitive dissonance.

  76. Predator Handshake says

    andyo @76: That’s the best thing about Arrested Development- that you can go through the thing several times over and still find jokes that you’ve missed the other times. The way they wrote that show is very interesting to me and it’s sad that it didn’t do better when it was on air, because I haven’t seen that sort of writing where you have to really pay attention to the details to get a joke in any other shows, except sometimes Community.

    I don’t want to junk up the thread with my love for Parks and Rec, but if you haven’t seen it before you really should. Leslie Knope is IMO the best female character on TV right now.

  77. says

    Think about Martin Gardner, who was a deist while acknowledging that it was irrational and subjective for a sceptic like him, but still said that faith was something important on a personal level.

    I think that’s a damn good example of someone who clearly through their own statements knows it’s bullshit but is a coward.

    I don’t see why you’d want to coddle that.

  78. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Ing, you’re strawmanning a bit.
    Irene did not say that faith is an inherently good thing or that it makes you a better person.
    Faith is morally neutral. If you have it, fine. If you don’t, fine.
    If having faith drives you to do inarguably good stuff, great! If you do the same good stuff without being driven by faith, also great! If your faith inspires you to be an asshole, then you’re an asshole.

    The problem that faith leads to, many times, is the fallacy that because a particular set of beliefs are good for me, then they MUST be good for you as well, and you must live according to what my faith says is right.

  79. Irene Delse says

    Ing:

    How’d that enlightenment turn out btw?

    Do you mean “how did it happen” or are you playing Devil’s advocate for fundamentalist religion? Because it’s one line of reasoninglogical fally that they have down pat: Enlightenment lead to freedom of thinking and science, which led to Communism and Fascism, ergo Voltaire = Hitler + Stalin. QED.

    Now, as for “how did it happen”: well, it was mostly the work of a bunch of deists, some humanistic theists and a very few hardcore atheists. The French Revolution itself didn’t abolished religion, it just tried to replace Christianity by a state religion, the cult of the Supreme Being (a kind of almighty creator who removed himself from the everyday running of his creation).

  80. says

    Faith is morally neutral. If you have it, fine. If you don’t, fine.

    This is what I’m disagreeing with.

    The problem that faith leads to, many times, is the fallacy that because a particular set of beliefs are good for me, then they MUST be good for you as well, and you must live according to what my faith says is right.

    No the problem is of garbage in garbage out. Of using a system with no way to verify or correct or test data to make decisions.

  81. says

    Ing, you’re strawmanning a bit.
    Irene did not say that faith is an inherently good thing or that it makes you a better person.

    Actually, you’re strawmanning me, as I was disagreeing with exactly what you said.

  82. says

    @Irene

    I case you couldn’t tell I was referring to how there was a backslide. Some of it’s effects caught on, a lot were dormant for a while.

  83. Irene Delse says

    @ Esteleth: Exactly. Thank you.

    @ Ing #93, #95:

    Take a deep breath, re-read what I wrote and come back to tell me where I said I “privilege” faith.

    Meanwhile, I’ll be having a good laugh at your expense.

  84. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    *shrug*
    Well, we’ll just have to disagree on that, Ing. I do know the terrible effects that religion can have. Fuck, I grew up surrounded by fundamentalist Christians. I just don’t see all faith (especially the variety that doesn’t lead to browbeating or high-horsed moralizing) as inherently bad.

  85. consciousness razor says

    Even if they’re not Biblical literalists, once they start down the path that starts with “the Bible is the Word of God, the final Revelation,” they’re stuck having to explain away the rape, the violence, the bigotry, all of that shit.

    Sure, and it goes farther than that. I’ve heard plenty of liberal Christians claim the Bible isn’t the word of God, just some kind of ancient wisdom made by people who were capable of getting things wrong. That’s how they explain away myths like the creation story or the flood. Well, no shit that stuff isn’t true. Congrats, have a fucking cookie, liberal Christians. If they treat those stories like myths, that’s not a problem, but it also doesn’t mean we can overlook everything else. When you point out all the other evil authoritarian shit in the Bible, they’ll still come up with some way of justifying it, especially if it’s in the NT and it’s something Jesus supposedly said. Because…. you’ve got to have faith. God is love. Blah blah blah.

  86. says

    I just don’t see all faith (especially the variety that doesn’t lead to browbeating or high-horsed moralizing) as inherently bad.

    I have to teach atheism 101 here? It’s “bad” because it’s a bad method for learning about the world. It undermines critical thought, cuts off avenues of discussions, rules out possibilities, and shuts down inquiry.

  87. says

    I just don’t see all faith (especially the variety that doesn’t lead to browbeating or high-horsed moralizing) as inherently bad.

    Faith that doesn’t do that is basically useless. What is the functional difference between a deist and atheist? Other than one wants to preserve an area of fantasy as reality. I’m fine with people like that. I would favor religions that were entirely humanist and non-evangelical! I just don’t want to pretend it’s anything but a decision to find a conclusion you like and shut your mind.

  88. Dhorvath, OM says

    Alukonis,
    I am pleased to read that you went on your date and sorry that it has caused so much conflict for you. Life is odd that way, it doesn’t always wait until we are ready to spring novel situations on us. I am nervous that my previous comments came across as judging you, I was envious of your situation as it’s one that I have a great deal of experience with and derive a lot of pleasure from. I should have been more sensititive to your difficulties, so my apologies.
    ___

    Predator handshake,
    I actually delight in Fight Club because of how much it puts down toxic masculine ideals both in the self obsession that they spread, (fighting yourself?) and in the lack of identity it promotes in it’s keenest followers. It’s a movie that doesn’t read right to me on the level of celebration of violence.
    ___

    I have big feet. Not what you were looking for? Phooey!
    ___

    I can’t agree that faith is morally neutral. Doing a morally admirable thing for an unexamined or unsupportable reason is different from doing it for a well considered one. It’s not quite accidental, but it’s courting with it.

  89. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    I am a diest (a Quaker, for the record). The kind of faith that I like is the non-evangelical, humanistic variety. When I say “faith,” that’s what I mean. And I don’t see it as inherently bad – or inherently good. It is, as I’ve said, morally neutral. I’d like to think it makes me a better person and drives me to do good stuff. Maybe I’m deluded.

    The belief system of most mainstream religions is just appalling to me – and I say that as someone who was raised in it. I have no time for for the moralizing bullshit, the “I’m better than you” crap, the “obey or be damned” garbage that spews from the pulpit and from the so-called holy book.

  90. Irene Delse says

    Ing:

    You didn’t say it, you’re arguing for it.

    That faith is personal and thus not to be challenged, because it’s subjective.

    No, I’m not arguing for it. If that’s how you understand it, you are confusing “faith” (what one believes for oneself) and “religion” (an organised set of dogma, rules and institutions that pretend to guide and/or mould humanity). You don’t need to teach Atheism 101, but to check your dictionary.

    Every one of us has a core of beliefs and ideas that they take for granted, because no ethic system can exist in a vacuum. You always have a few assumptions on which to build it.

    Humanism values human beings for themselves, and there are very good utilitarian reasons for that (if only for the preservation of the species or the maximisation of happiness for the maximum of people), but this is an arbitrary choice, in the grand scheme of things. For instance, vegans and animal rights advocates think that non-human animals deserve to be treated with as much caution and kindness as humans, and that to privilege humans because we are humans is merely specism.

    I happen to not agree with them, but I admit that from a purely logical point of view, it stands together. So if we really value logical thinking, we should all stand up for animal rights!

    But most atheists don’t, and not because they privilege specism, but because they are not basing their ethics on pure logic. They just don’t believe that humans are not better or more deserving of protection than other animals.

    See why I said that faith or unfaith can be a purely personal, emotional matter, and that atheists don’t get to feel morally superior because they may be a little more logical than theists?

  91. Pteryxx says

    Ooh, Irene, thank you for that link!

    Unbeknownst to her, there are very few things in my life that incense me more than a believer telling me that my disability is a punishment from god. This, combined with the fact that grocery store evangelicals are one rung below door-to-door evangelists on my ladder of the most annoyingly invasive people in the known universe, was a sure sign that the impending conversation was not going to go very well. Not for her, anyway.

    …I’m salivating.

  92. Dhorvath, OM says

    Esteleth,
    I suspect we are using the word at cross purposes then. Wanting to be better and thinking that such is possible can be well supported by the evidence of other people who have done better. If that is what you want to call faith it is at odds with faith as I read it, a belief that one holds despite inadequate information or even in spite of evidence to the contrary. I think the second is reprehensible in most cases and especially dangerous when it is codified and enshrined in organizations.

  93. says

    I had basal cell on my nose, three operations over four months. I stayed inside for much of it because I scared the kiddies, even covering the especially icky stages with bandages I wasn’t supposed to be wearing. Maybe I should have taken a different approach. I could have passed out SPF 50 and pamphlets.

  94. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    So far I’ve yet to have anyone try to “save” me by using my cripplitude as a foot-in-the-door. I guess I just don’t live wrong, right. :D

    (I’m prepared for it, however.)

    I see “faith” as a crutch (among its many, many societal functions and malfunctions) for those who don’t feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are not able to stand on their own.

  95. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    Okay, that was an example of a phrasing trainwreck. Make that either “for those who don’t feel (r o w) that they are able” etc., or “for those who feel that they are not“…

  96. says

    not getting into thread discussion, but what this video is basically telling me is that I’m completely fucked and probably already have cancer everywhere. I’ve been growing new moles my entire life, for example; no way I could tell a cancerous new mole from any other kind. And anyway, not like I could do anything about such a cancer, anyway, what with being the medical underclass.

    FML

  97. Richard Austin says

    Jadehawk (and anyone else):
    Quick slideshow on moles vs melanoma

    I have a fair number of smaller (like, speck-types) moles and freckles, even though I don’t sunburn easily. I’ve had a dermatologist tell me that I’m at a low risk of developing skin cancer, though I don’t know what factors led him to that. I still keep an eye on them, just in case, but nothing has ever been out of the ordinary.

  98. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Predator Handshake:

    Dr. Audley, I’m the same way about laugh tracks. Parks and Rec and Community both let the jokes be and I think that’s a big part of why I like them so much.

    Yes! I do not need to be told when to laugh thankyewverymuch.

    I had high hopes for HBOs comedies (‘cos WHOA! production values), but fuck, none of the current shows are funny. Not even a little bit.

  99. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Also, I’d give my left boob for more Flight of the Conchords.

    Just sayin’.

  100. says

    Audley:

    My old paperback is falling apart, so I needed to replace it, anyway. :)

    That was my exact reasoning too! :D

    Thomathy:

    project implicit is awesome! I just did one of the studies, on association of a trait to a person with regards to whether irrelevant information would cloud the judgement. What a fascinating project. I’m going to do more.

    Yay! I really enjoyed the whole experience.

  101. says

    Jadehawk:

    not getting into thread discussion, but what this video is basically telling me is that I’m completely fucked and probably already have cancer everywhere. I’ve been growing new moles my entire life, for example; no way I could tell a cancerous new mole from any other kind. And anyway, not like I could do anything about such a cancer, anyway, what with being the medical underclass.

    I know there are clinics where you can get a screening for free or very low cost.

    I’m one of those people at high risk, I have to be inspected every year. I burnt myself crispy multiple times every year throughout my childhood – there was no sunscreen back in the dino days and *everyone* tanned or tried to.

  102. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Jesus fuck, what the hell? First I forget my Fuze is in the charger, and the battery gets overloaded. Now, my new Fuze+, which I bought on the way home tonight, won’t turn on. It wasn’t even at full battery, so figured I’d leave it to charge for a bit before loading music onto it.

    The fucking adapter must have gone wonky somehow, because it takes a lot of fiddling around with to get it to work. And now that it does, the back of the Fuze got very warm, so warm in fact that I unplugged it for fear of throwing 63 bucks down the toilet. Now the damned thing won’t turn on! WHAT THE FUCKING HELL?!

    Should’ve gotten the warranty. At least that would have made getting this unit replaced or fixed easier. I don’t think I got a warranty with my first one, otherwise I’d have sent it in to get looked at.

  103. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Tornado? I thought . . . never mind. Be careful Starstuff!

  104. walton says

    I have to teach atheism 101 here? It’s “bad” because it’s a bad method for learning about the world. It undermines critical thought, cuts off avenues of discussions, rules out possibilities, and shuts down inquiry.

    Well, I think it’s important here to distinguish between two different senses of the word “faith”. There’s “faith” in the narrow epistemological sense of “believing in things which are not supported by evidence”, and I think that’s what you’re criticizing (and reasonably so). But in my experience the word is also used in broader senses – “faith groups”, “faith traditions”, “interfaith” and so on – to refer to religious groups in general. Unitarian Universalism is usually referred to (including by its adherents) as “a faith”, for instance, but it doesn’t impose any kind of creed or dogma and doesn’t require belief in a literal god.

    But then, of course the vagueness and ambiguity of the word “faith” is a problem in itself, given that it creates a space in the public discourse which is sometimes filled by very bad ideas.

    ===

    Speak of the devil. Be Scofield embodies fail.

    Yeah, that was a pretty poor article. It could have been good, but Scofield ends up undermining his argument completely with sweeping generalizations and assertions. To a very great extent I agree with him that there is racism, sexism and cultural imperialism in the atheist movement (indeed, some people within the atheist movement have been pointing this out for years). And I agree that it’s overreaching to argue that all religion is by definition bad and harmful, that it’s important not to generalize about religion as a social phenomenon, and that it’s always important to be aware of one’s own cultural assumptions and position of privilege.

    But he seems to be generalizing in the opposite direction about what “New Atheists” (a very broad and amorphous group to begin with) think and believe; and I also think his portrayal of Greta Christina is extremely unfair. I disagree with her on plenty of things, including, on occasion, her stances on religion; but she is extremely attuned to social justice issues and has spent a great deal of time and effort working to combat sexism and other forms of prejudice in the atheist movement, something he seems to ignore completely in his attacks on her. She’s not Dawkins, and she shouldn’t be conflated with him when her views on social issues are quite different, especially given her long track-record of serious progressive activism. Scofield’s seems to be replicating Terry Eagleton’s “Ditchkins” trick of lumping all the people he’s criticizing into a single imagined interlocutor, and, in the process, constructing a ridiculous strawman of their views. It isn’t any better to generalize blindly about atheists than to generalize blindly about the religious.

  105. walton says

    (I’m not going to comment on it at Ophelia’s blog, because the comment threads at B&W in general are so full of anti-Muslim haters and ridiculous caricatures that I really don’t have the energy to handle it. I should do so, really, but I’m too stressed with Real Life™ to face it at the moment.)

  106. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    I’m not going to comment on it at Ophelia’s blog, because the comment threads at B&W in general are so full of anti-Muslim haters and ridiculous caricatures that I really don’t have the energy to handle it.

    I’ve had about up to here with your persistent mischaracterization of Butterflies and Wheels as a den of slavering, right-wing, BNP bigots. Cut the crap Walton. I agree with you that there are some commenters there who’ve gone over the line, no doubt. But a lot of what you’ve been calling “anti-Muslim haters” are people who disagree with you in good faith and who are not self-evidently unreconstructed bigots just because they don’t share your conversational priorities of “balancing” their criticism of Islam every time with a long list of disclaimers about how they don’t approve of marginalizing Muslims.

    It’s a cheap shot (and it’s bullshit) to characterize B and W overall the way you have. Check your confirmation bias once in a while.

    And in case you or anyone else is about to start making snarky comments about how I must be defending Ophelia because she’s my friend – preemptively feel free to piss off. Astonishingly, I am capable of making evaluations that are not wholly and slavishly dependent on who my BFFs are. You know – just like you can!

  107. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    That bottle of Ardbeg Alligator I rescued from a life of loneliness on the shelf today is exposing my thirst by calling me like a tell tale malt from the closet…

  108. walton says

    Consider a hypothetical religious organization which has significant political support and which agrees with your stance on the death penalty. They think it should be abolished, because if it isn’t, Santa won’t give them as many Christmas presents. Whatever works, you might say: you should still support them even though they’re doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

    However, they also claim that, because of personal revelations from their deity or obscure nonsense in their magic books, harsher sentences are justifiable when non-believers commit a crime. Are they still your allies? Do you support them or not? If you try to carefully go about changing their stance on non-believers without breaking this alliance, what do you say to them? How do you justify your position?

    That’s an important point; and for this kind of reason there are groups which I wouldn’t be comfortable supporting, despite my agreement with them on important issues. In the US, Catholic Charities, for example, is a major provider of legal advice and humanitarian services to refugees and asylum-seekers, and does significant and valuable work in that area. But I would not be willing to work for or with them directly, because of their opposition to LGBT rights. (And the two issues can’t be neatly separated; there are a great many immigrants’ rights issues which intersect directly with LGBT rights issues, such as DOMA’s effect on family reunification for same-sex couples, and asylum for refugees fleeing homophobic and transphobic violence.) Where there are irreconcilable differences on basic issues of social justice, it’s hard to work together meaningfully.

    But I’m thinking more of broad-based initiatives on specific issues, in which progressive religious groups often work together with secular human rights groups to achieve particular goals. People of Faith against the Death Penalty is an important voice in the anti-death-penalty movement, for example. So, too, progressive religious groups like the UUs and the Quakers were among the earliest campaigners for same-sex marriage. And interfaith coalitions like the Boston New Sanctuary Movement do valuable work for immigration policy reform and immigrants’ rights; the UUs also have a strong position in support of immigrants’ rights, and participate in broad-based movements in support of immigration reform. All I’m saying is that, for me, I’m happy to work closely on these issues with religious activists as well as secular ones, and differences of belief are not, in themselves, hugely important to me as long as we are promoting the same principles of social justice, love and compassion.

  109. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Watching Paul and Santorum go at each other is fun to watch. Much better than the boring Mitt Newt fights.

  110. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Hmmm….

    GOP vs. tornadoes.

    Both cause great damage. Both are pains in the ass to deal with. The former is a howling thunderstorm made up of people who lack empathy and sense but still remember how to breathe, the latter is a swirling vortex of air and debris with no hint of sentience at all. The GOP happily dismantles anything that could help the general populace, not caring that they are hurting the same people they claim to want to help, and in some cases, knowingly cause the people harm. Tornadoes just hit and run.

    Yeah, I can see your point, Pteryxx. At least with tornadoes you’re not left feeling betrayed by your own species.

  111. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Yeah, I can see your point, Pteryxx. At least with tornadoes you’re not left feeling betrayed by your own species.

    Are we sure?

  112. consciousness razor says

    There’s “faith” in the narrow epistemological sense of “believing in things which are not supported by evidence”, and I think that’s what you’re criticizing (and reasonably so). But in my experience the word is also used in broader senses – “faith groups”, “faith traditions”, “interfaith” and so on – to refer to religious groups in general. Unitarian Universalism is usually referred to (including by its adherents) as “a faith”, for instance, but it doesn’t impose any kind of creed or dogma and doesn’t require belief in a literal god.

    You didn’t give any examples of “faith” being used in anything other than the “narrow” epistemological sense. One doesn’t need to have imposing dogmas or a belief in a literal god, in order to believe something which isn’t supported by evidence.

  113. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Newt tried the derail again and got smacked down. By Mitt.

    maybe this will finally get interesting

  114. Pteryxx says

    Also, I keep thinking of survivors who peek out of the aftermath of tornadoes and say to the cameras, “God was watching out for me.” While the GOP’s busy talking about who God hates.

    Are we sure?

    Hey now. On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a bird.

    Does that make me a humanist-ally?

  115. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    I don’t know how you all stand watching those “debates.” I can’t even find them entertaining; they disgust and frighten me.

  116. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Speaking of weather: Right now, we’ve got freezing rain. And thunder. Thunder! In January! Madness!

  117. says

    Jeffrey:

    Will, no doubt, purchase both.

    I’m looking forward to seeing if I can spot the now included 12,000 words. :D Also, I am *this* close to caving and getting a Nook Tablet. Soon.

  118. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    You’re welcome, Jeffrey! I’m gonna start the Kindle version of American Gods after I finish Death and the Penguin. :)

  119. walton says

    I’ve had about up to here with your persistent mischaracterization of Butterflies and Wheels as a den of slavering, right-wing, BNP bigots.

    I think I’ve actually been very careful to state in the vast majority of my posts that I’m not attacking Ophelia personally and that I actually agree with a lot of what she writes. However, my consistent experience thus far has been that there are a great many anti-Muslim bigots commenting in the threads there, and that they don’t get called out enough. Of course I haven’t been reading it for very long, so this may be a recent aberration.

    But a lot of what you’ve been calling “anti-Muslim haters” are people who disagree with you in good faith and who are not self-evidently unreconstructed bigots just because they don’t share your conversational priorities of “balancing” their criticism of Islam every time with a long list of disclaimers about how they don’t approve of marginalizing Muslims.

    Well, steve oberski’s comments on this thread are unequivocal anti-Muslim bigotry. As is this. In the second case it got called out (though mainly by Pharyngula people).

    But you’re obviously right that there are plenty of other commenters there who are acting in good faith, and perhaps I was unfair. I’m sorry for that. However, I worry that they (and Ophelia, for that matter) seem to be blind about the way that endless criticisms of Islam, without counterbalance, risk inflaming far-right and anti-immigration sentiments. Anti-Muslim sentiment in Britain (she’s been writing a lot about Britain lately, and of course it’s my home country) is incredibly widespread and volatile; and atheists like Condell (and Dawkins, who has praised Condell in the past) are making it worse. And it has direct effects on how Muslims are treated, and, indirectly, sets back the vitally important goal of promoting equal rights for immigrants and increasing public support for comprehensive immigration reform, among other things. (Something that is, I believe, one of the great human rights issues of our generation, and I’ve already explained at length why I feel so strongly about it.)

    And in case you or anyone else is about to start making snarky comments about how I must be defending Ophelia because she’s my friend – preemptively feel free to piss off.

    I have never said anything of the kind, nor am I going to. Nor, indeed, do I think anything of the kind. I don’t understand why you’re putting words in my mouth; I’ve known you quite a while and have plenty of respect for you, and I had and have no intention whatsoever of throwing around those kinds of baseless accusations.

    ====

    You didn’t give any examples of “faith” being used in anything other than the “narrow” epistemological sense. One doesn’t need to have imposing dogmas or a belief in a literal god, in order to believe something which isn’t supported by evidence.

    No, but for non-creedal religions like UUism, one is not obliged to espouse any belief in the supernatural, or any other particular faith-based beliefs, in order to be a member. Of course plenty of UUs do have theistic, deistic or spiritual beliefs of various kinds, but it’s not a prerequisite of membership, nor something that the organization exists specifically to promote.

  120. says

    Caine –

    I am *this* close to caving and getting a Nook Tablet. Soon.

    Ah, Let me know. I can share some books with you. Also, many libraries are now lending e-books online. I think Audley has more info on that.

    Right now I am deep in histories again (I go in cycles) and have not hit much fiction. I have some nice things put aside, but ’twill be a while.

    On a depressing note. All my kids have weird music/movie tastes and personal styles – I obviously did my work well. However, cannot seem to get any of them interested in Pratchett or Gaiman. What can I do to fix this???

  121. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I don’t know how you all stand watching those “debates.” I can’t even find them entertaining; they disgust and frighten me.

    Yeah i can understand that. But I do like hearing how they handle themselves in debates. It’s not because I think it means they win or lose, but that you get to see them waffle and change and squirm and flat out lie.

    Not sure, maybe I’m a masochist. Or maybe I’m just an asshole.

    Probably both.

  122. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Caine:

    Also, I am *this* close to caving and getting a Nook Tablet. Soon.

    Not to push, or anything…

    … But I love my tablet. I’ve got a Kindle Fire and I’m reading more than I have in years.

    I thought I’d miss paper books, but for casual reading*, I really don’t notice the difference.

    *And not something I’ve been waiting for or a favorite author or whatever. Those I still plan to buy the hard copy.

  123. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Frankly I think Newt is showing his ass tonight.

    He’s been doing that to the country since ’94. ;)

  124. consciousness razor says

    All I’m saying is that, for me, I’m happy to work closely on these issues with religious activists as well as secular ones, and differences of belief are not, in themselves, hugely important to me as long as we are promoting the same principles of social justice, love and compassion.

    Thanks, but that doesn’t answer any of my questions. :)

    You may not think it’s as important to you as issues like the death penalty or immigration policy, but it seems like you’re not quite recognizing it as a kind of moral problem.

    Faith is not morally neutral. If you don’t have a good reason to believe something, then you should not believe it. If this isn’t a proper ethical claim, then explain why that’s the case.

  125. Ichthyic says

    the tablet discussion caught my eye.

    I have… money now.

    (shhhh!)

    and I’ve been waiting to go tablet for so long now.

    so, what’s the best one for serious reading these days? I’ve been wanting one to carry around to read periodicals for yonks now, but haven’t got a clue which would be the best for that.

    Ideally, I suppose it would have to display PDFs in a very readable, high contrast fashion, be easily searchable, have removable memory cards, USB compatible, etc.

    do the new kindles meet the bill? or is there something better out there now?

  126. walton says

    Ron Paul… I will never understand. He just sounds like a slightly unhinged, ranting idiot to me. Seriously, people cannot care that much about his position on drugs, can they?

    I haven’t watched the debates in general, but from the snippets I have watched, he’s one of the most frustrating people ever. One minute, he’ll be the only person in the room talking sense on an issue like torture or wars of aggression… and then a few seconds later he can shift gears and spout utter incoherent reality-impaired nonsense on another issue. And his rhetorical style is hopeless; even when I agree with him, he often couches the arguments very badly.

    (Newt Gingrich, on the other hand, has been consistently wrong about every single important political issue since the mid-90s, and seems intent to keep up this trend. Plus, he’s not just wrong; he’s also an asshole. Even if I knew nothing about his political beliefs, I daresay I’d still dislike him.)

  127. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    I think I’ve actually been very careful to state in the vast majority of my posts that I’m not attacking Ophelia personally

    I did not say anything about you attacking O personally. I explicitly and clearly wrote about your characterization of Butterflies and Wheels as a whole.

    Of course I haven’t been reading it for very long, so this may be a recent aberration.

    To the extent that bigots like that guy who said Islam “shouldn’t be allowed to mix with civilized people” show up, that’s pretty unusual. And of course that was an outrageous statement. And he got called out-first, I might add, by a regular B and W commenter. Go look.

    However, I worry that they (and Ophelia, for that matter) seem to be blind about the way that endless criticisms of Islam, without counterbalance, risk inflaming far-right and anti-immigration sentiments.

    I know that you worry about that, but I think your perception is faulty. “Endless criticisms of Islam” is extremely hyperbolic if you’re talking about B and W. You just noted you haven’t read it for long. As someone who’s been there for years I can tell you it’s a completely inaccurate representation. People were accusing Ophelia of Catholic bigotry over the past two years because of an “endless” run of posts on the RCC. Please expand your sample size.

    And on another point—I think we’re keying off different priorities. You have an interest in immigration and asylum issues. Naturally you’re keeping up with and keenly sensitive to racist bigotry. I, however, (and these are not zero-sum situations) am more concerned right now in preserving conversational spaces where dangerous anti-free-speech bullying by or in service to Islamists can take place. There’s a boatload of “shut up” going on right now directed not at bigots but at people who are raising legitimate alarms about excessive deference to Islamic demands and its effect on women, gays, and political speech. That’s real.

    I utterly refuse to accommodate anyone who argues that “endless criticism of Islam” (a sloppy formulation that’s way too vague, do admit) is just fuel for the right wingers. Reasonable people get to make reasonable, pro-humanistic arguments without being saddled with the responsibility of fomenting actual bigots. Notice that I’m not defending bigotry in our own ranks. Notice that I’ve separated reasonable criticism from bigotry. I think you should be more careful to do so.

    On the other hand, given my current priorities I may be overlooking some questionable (or worse) behavior and I’ll have to pay better attention to that.

    I have never said anything of the kind, nor am I going to. Nor, indeed, do I think anything of the kind.

    That was unfair and I apologize. It wasn’t directed at you and it didn’t belong in a comment addressed to you.

  128. says

    Jeffrey:

    What can I do to fix this???

    I don’t know…trick them? Have you tried Good Omens?

    Audley:

    Not to push, or anything…

    It’s cool. :) I still prefer paper, but I can see the use of an e-reader. I’ve been wanting a tablet for a while, and I like the latest Nook tablet, it’s had excellent reviews (and I’ve played with them at the store), the price is right and all that. Previously, I just couldn’t justify spending on an e-reader alone.

    I’m getting there, I’ll probably have one inside a couple of months.

  129. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Jeffrey:

    I think Audley has more info on that.

    Not too much, actually. I know that you can borrow through Amazon (for 14 days, with a Prime account) and I can’t imagine borrowing from a local library being that much more difficult.

    Hey look! My local library even loans out e-readers!

  130. says

    Ichthyic – I only use a Kindle keyboard for dedicated reading, mostly history. The value for me is the ability to make notes, save quotes, etc. It is USB capable, but no expandable memory. I think the screen is better for reading that a tablet, but that is personal opinion. Also, I have the Kindle app on my computers so can access my books and notes from pretty much anywhere. Audley seems to love her Kindle Fire and assume she will jump in here. Tried various Nooks, tablets and, etc. from friends and kids and prefer the Kindle for plain reading.

  131. walton says

    Faith is not morally neutral. If you don’t have a good reason to believe something, then you should not believe it. If this isn’t a proper ethical claim, then explain why that’s the case.

    Well, I think the onus is on you to explain why it is the case. Since, as I’ve said before, I’m not even sure that there is or can be an objective or rational foundation for morality – though I’m undecided on, and very confused about, that issue – I can’t come up with a conclusive answer, and I’m not even sure that the parameters of the question make sense to me.

    In my case, believing only what seems to me to be true is not so much a matter of moral obligation as of logical necessity; to believe something means to consider it to be true. I can’t choose to believe something; the very idea of “choosing to believe” isn’t really logically coherent in the first place. (I never chose to be a non-theist, and never wanted to be one; I became one because I couldn’t satisfy myself that there was any evidence or any reasoned argument which supported a belief in a God or gods, and I can’t make myself believe something that doesn’t seem to me to be true.)

    I don’t think there’s always a positive moral obligation in all imaginable circumstances to be truthful about what one believes; one can easily envision particular factual circumstances in which it would be morally better to lie than to tell the truth. (If one is sheltering people being persecuted by an oppressive régime, for instance, and the security police come looking for them.) But that’s entirely different from the question you were asking, of course; deceiving oneself is different from deceiving others.

  132. Ichthyic says

    prefer the Kindle for plain reading.

    thanks muchly, exactly the feedback I was looking for.

  133. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Ichthyic:

    do the new kindles meet the bill?

    Sadly, not for what you’re looking for. There’s no removable storage device and straight out of the box, I don’t think* that PDFs are viewable (although there may be an app). Searching seems to work well, though.

    It’s good for reading, fucking around on the ‘tubes, and and watching videos. Fluff like that.

    *Although lord knows I’m still trying to figure the damned thing out. Where are my documents, Kindle? WHERE ARE MY DOCUMENTS?

  134. Ichthyic says

    the kindle fire price sure is right.

    down to 200 now?

    that’s cheap.

    what’s the catch?

  135. says

    Caine – I have provided them almost all of Gaiman and Pratchett in both e and paper and still no luck. (sigh)

    I do like a dedicated reader. I use my old netbook for everyday stuff like now. I use the desktop for serious writing as I prefer that keyboard and it is upstairs with the bookshelves. That reminds me, time to backup again – both netbook and desktop are getting older.

  136. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    what’s the catch?

    Haven’t found it yet. The Fire is pretty fucking awesome. It’s too bad it doesn’t do what you want. :(

    My (albeit cynical) guess is that it’s $200 (which was the starting price, IIRC) just to give the finger to Apple.

  137. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    I recently bought a tablet PC – not just an e-reader (Toshiba Thrive. a little bulky but has ports I need). I can tell you that I would not, not, not, want to read books on its glowing color screen. If one is an avid reader, you’d probably be far happier with a reflected light reader. The very thought of taking that glowing thing to bed and having it project into my eyeballs is the very opposite of what I want in reading a book. It’s fabulous for computer-y stuff, but there’s a reason people complain about eye fatigue on computer screens. It’s cause they glow.

  138. says

    PDFs are visible on the Kindle readers, but they do not respond well to lots of graphs and pics. Plain text works well enough.

    Audley, may be easiest to move documents into the Fire via usb cable directly into the documents folder (based on what I have read online.).

  139. Happiestsadist says

    @Alukonis: I was actually made pretty uncomfortable with not what you want in sexual companionship, but the way you sounded like it was gross and absurd to want someone around when they weren’t sexually amusing you. Honestly? It came off as a pretty unhealthy and anti-sex attitude. It’s not patriarchy that makes that attitude unpleasant in men.

  140. says

    Josh:

    If one is an avid reader, you’d probably be far happier with a reflected light reader.

    The Nook tablet is backlit and anti-glare. It has the best review for ease of reading. If it didn’t have those features, I wouldn’t consider it all.

  141. says

    Frankly I think Newt is showing his ass tonight.

    He’s giving his rebuttal?

    I’m just getting started on the article on Joe Paterno in the new Sports Illustrated. They’re not lionizing him exactly, but retelling his history; they open with a reference to Sandusky and make it clear that, no, he did not die of a broken heart. And he’s not on the cover, which is sort of surprising.
    And I’m coming away with the idea that Paterno was just a guy. Very ordinary, but his story got blown up due to the exalted position of sports figures in this country. And yes, oftentimes ordinary people run away from doing the right thing, when friendship or loyalty get in the way.
    He was just this guy, you know.

  142. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Jeffrey:

    Audley, may be easiest to move documents into the Fire via usb cable directly into the documents folder (based on what I have read online.).

    I keep meaning to look into that. My problem is that documents get sucked into the black hole of internal storage, and then I don’t know how to access them. Argh!

    Although… I wonder if I could move shit into my “cloud”. Hmmm….

    Josh:

    If one is an avid reader, you’d probably be far happier with a reflected light reader. The very thought of taking that glowing thing to bed and having it project into my eyeballs is the very opposite of what I want in reading a book. It’s fabulous for computer-y stuff, but there’s a reason people complain about eye fatigue on computer screens. It’s cause they glow.

    I thought so too at first, but the Fire’s screen hasn’t given me eye fatigue yet (its screen is color and lit) and I use it all the damned time. I haven’t read a paper book since Xmas, plus I do a lot of my web browsing on it now.

    I don’t know if there’s any sort of difference between the Fire’s screen and a regular tablet or if I’m just weird.

  143. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    It’s tet so I’m going to keep spewing

    Romney stands no chance in a debate with Obmama. He’s horrible.

  144. walton says

    And he got called out-first, I might add, by a regular B and W commenter. Go look.

    He got called out by BenSix, yes; but I later had a discussion on my own blog with BenSix about immigration laws, in which he expressed support for restricting immigration based on some vague and silly reasons about fearing the effects of “cultural pluralism”. That’s still bigotry, even if it’s more polite, reasonable and subtle bigotry; there is no non-bigoted reason for opposing open immigration.

    I know that you worry about that, but I think your perception is faulty. “Endless criticisms of Islam” is extremely hyperbolic if you’re talking about B and W. You just noted you haven’t read it for long. As someone who’s been there for years I can tell you it’s a completely inaccurate representation. People were accusing Ophelia of Catholic bigotry over the past two years because of an “endless” run of posts on the RCC. Please expand your sample size.

    That’s fair enough. And I’ll concede that I never read B&W (and wasn’t even really aware of its existence) until the last couple of months. I shouldn’t have judged it on an inadequate sample.

    It is, though, worth noting that criticism of Islam (in, specifically, a British and a North American context) is very much a different kettle of fish from criticism of Catholicism, because Catholics really aren’t an oppressed minority in any of those countries any more (although they certainly once were), whereas Muslims are an extremely oppressed and marginalized group who are currently the favourite scapegoats of the far right. I know you’re well aware of this and sensitive to this issue, and I’m not mentioning this necessarily in response to anything you’ve said, but, rather, to explain to the world at large why I’m often hypersensitive to over-broad criticisms of Islam and Muslims where I wouldn’t, necessarily, be so concerned about similar criticisms of Christianity or Christians.

    There’s a boatload of “shut up” going on right now directed not at bigots but at people who are raising legitimate alarms about excessive deference to Islamic demands and its effect on women, gays, and political speech. That’s real.

    I utterly refuse to accommodate anyone who argues that “endless criticism of Islam” (a sloppy formulation that’s way too vague, do admit) is just fuel for the right wingers. Reasonable people get to make reasonable, pro-humanistic arguments without being saddled with the responsibility of fomenting actual bigots.

    I agree, almost entirely… but with the caveat that such criticism has to be extremely nuanced, and to recognize the intersecting forms of oppression in play. Women and LGBT people in many Muslim communities in the West are, of course, marginalized twice over: marginalized by racism and anti-Muslim bigotry in society at large, and marginalized by sexism and homophobia both in society at large and in their own communities and cultures. I know that you, and Ophelia, are working from the standpoint of promoting the human rights of those people, I respect that, and I think you’re right to do so. But I always find it very difficult to find the right balance in talking about Islam as it relates to social justice issues (and I think some of the most high-profile atheists, such as Dawkins and Harris, have been getting it very wrong).

    I’d hold up Johann Hari’s piece about homophobia among Muslims in Britain as a pretty good analysis, for instance. He doesn’t ignore the issue; he doesn’t shy away from pointing out religiously-motivated homophobia or from criticizing Islam openly; he says “The only consistent and reasonable position is to oppose bigotry against Muslims, and oppose bigotry by Muslims.” (Which I think is very close to what you’re saying, if I understand you rightly.)

  145. walton says

    He got called out by BenSix, yes; but I later had a discussion on my own blog with BenSix about immigration laws, in which he expressed support for restricting immigration based on some vague and silly reasons about fearing the effects of “cultural pluralism”. That’s still bigotry, even if it’s more polite, reasonable and subtle bigotry; there is no non-bigoted reason for opposing open immigration.

    Actually, on second thoughts, that’s unfair (and I intended to delete this paragraph before posting, but forgot). BenSix did offer some much more reasonable arguments than that one, and the above is strawmanning him somewhat. I don’t think he’s a bigot, and I apologize to him (if he’s reading) for saying so, although I do think he got it very wrong. (The discussion itself is on this thread.)

  146. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    I vote that we have the GOP and tornadoes…all at the same time and place…at a carefully chosen venue, and after making sure that all of the innocent bystanders have been evacuated.

    Frankly I think Newt is showing his ass tonight.

    All ass, all the time!

    He’s giving his rebuttal?

    I see what you did there!
    :)

  147. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Previously-barfy kid, in bathtub: I think I overdid it with the water.

    Me: Is all the water IN the tub?

    Previously-barfy kid: … Most of it.

  148. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The Redhead had some speech therapy after her dinner. While waiting for her, ABC news was analyzing the election to date. It appears that the longer the rethuglican debates go on, the worse all the rethuglican candidates appear to the typical voter. Newt’s negatives are approaching 50% for example. The implication was that the rethugs were imploding upon on their own stupidity and ideology, and Obama is simply waiting for the dust to clear to remind folks how moderate he is compared to the ideologue running against him, as he cruises to reelection. As one can hope that this is the case. Worked for him in his election to the senate.

  149. says

    Ichthyic – Also, there are several programs that can turn a text heavy PDF into an e-book file. Calibre is good for conversion and free.

    Audley dear, love you, but will go with you being weird. (smile)

    Headache naggng me and still recovering from bronchitis so shutting down to read for a bit. Hmmm, paper or plastic?

  150. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Does anyone really think Newt is religious? I think it’s purely a political move for him.

    Not that i think he’s an atheist or anything, Just that its a tool for him and that’s all.

  151. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    This evening has been a mess. First, I almost got in a car accident on the way home. Almost, fortunately, but still I had to pull over and hyperventilate for a few minutes.
    Then I came home to discover that Morgan the Kitty had decided that (1) the bathtub was a litterbox and that (2) her actual litterbox was a toy to tip out and drag all over the kitchen floor. Blearg.

    Cleaned that up, then set out baking a loaf of bread. Great for calming the nerves. Naturally, I overheated the yeast and killed it. I now have a rather sad extra-dense loaf. I figure I’ll make croutons with it.

    Incidentally, I have learned that Morgan the Kitty is not afraid me scolding her, the vacuum, or of the dishwasher. She is, however, afraid of the bread machine and the mop. I don’t even know.

    I am deliberately NOT watching the GOP debate. Instead, in a minute I’ll go back into my freshly mopped kitchen, take the kettle off the stove, and drink some tea. Mmm, tea.

  152. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Really, I don’t know that Newt believes anything he says. Or if he does that’s secondary to him gaining power. He’s a shrewd gaming motherfucker.

  153. Pteryxx says

    I hope you’re all happy! You broke Kagin!

    Speaking of sad, extra-dense loaves, indeed.

  154. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    SC, that was epic.

    I have decided to forgo tea. *sips beer*

    Newt Gingrich is a True Believer™ in the One True Religion of Newt Gingrich.

  155. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    A ha! You can read PDFs on the Fire, either by sending them to your Kindle address or through the Adobe Reader app. That makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it.

    StarStuff:

    There’s no catch. They want people to buy them so that they can sell more content (in the form of books, movies, music, and apps). Rather brilliant, really.

    Guaranteed customers.

    It’s the same with video games– console sales lose money (sometimes a lot of money, like the PS3), but it doesn’t matter ‘cos the manufacturers will make a shit load of profit off of licensing games.

  156. says

    SC:

    I hope you’re all happy! You broke Kagin!

    With the zeal of reformed nymphomaniacs peddling AmWay, they freely vend their negative judgments on the behavior and opinions of others. Unable or unwilling to control themselves and their unhappy lives of frustration, insecurity, and despair, these petty dictators seek solace in desperately attempting to control others. For they are right. Those who disagree with their toxic tyranny are clearly and obviously wrong, if not evil. And they do attract followers, persons easily led, seeking certainty, and willing to praise, to flatter, and to sing unto them, How great thou art. Self-righteous leaders reward fidelity and elevate select obedient disciples, especially worshipful ones who are confused but shamelessly self-righteous, to CULT (Counseled Until Learned Truth) status.

    Reformed nymphomaniacs? Does this guy manage to write anything without being an offensive douche? Yikes.

    Jesus is reported to have said, “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” There are similar references, for self-righteousness is justly and frequently condemned in the bible, a work that, for all its many and obvious faults, is not without certain merit. Indeed, we recommend you read it. The book is much better than the movie.

    Jesus Harrypotter Christ on a Nimbus 2000, he’s off his rocker.

  157. Ichthyic says

    Not that i think he’s an atheist or anything, Just that its a tool for him and that’s all.

    Newt is a living, breathing, tool, in and of himself.

    He has, in fact, deliberately honed himself over the years to be a complete tool, like the swiss army knife of tools.

  158. says

    I can’t watch vids at work, so I just watched the PSA a few minutes ago.

    I’m fair complected, and I had at least four (that I can remember) blistering sunburns on my back and/or the back of my neck from pre-adolescence through early adulthood. Almost none since my mid-20s, when I started taking SSRIs and became highly vulnerable to vitaminosis D.

    After watching the video, my hand went to the nape of my neck, and there’s what I hope is just a pimple there, not a mole. (AFAIK I have only one mole, near my jawline.) I live alone and I don’t have the sorts of mirrors I can line up to check it out myself, but I’ll ask a friend to this weekend.

    I had also been considering listening to a former co-worker who’s a “ginger” who said that he staves off SAD with five-minute tanning bed sessions, once every five or six weeks. My SAD has been awful the last two months, but I think I’d rather just keep my full-spectrum lamp on a little longer during the day.

    Thank you for posting this, PZ.

    **************

    Radford:

    Would be ethical to shoot and kill a Bigfoot?…

    I sure hope not. I don’t want him ending up in food products sold in Oklahoma.

    I hope you’re all happy! You broke Kagin!

    Okay, I’ll confess to yelling, “YAY!!” before I clicked through. And then I saw Version, what are we up to now?, 6.0 of I IZ BEIN SYLENSED BAI TEH PC GESTAPO!!! with pretensions to literary merit, and I had the usual “Oh, FFS” reaction.

    And now that the tab is closed, I’m just shaking my head. There’s something off there. Massively disconnected and rather obsessed.

  159. Ichthyic says

    You can read PDFs on the Fire

    ah, but can you zoom on them?

    if you’re not sure, can you zoom in on images (not text, pictures)?

  160. carlie says

    Word of caution about ebooks and library lending – you can wait as much time or longer for an ebook loan as a regular one. I got one from mine (using the kindle desktop app) and I had to wait almost two weeks for the loan to go live, and then had only three days after they sent the notification to get in and “claim” it or else I’d lose the loan to the next person on the list. One would think that digital means everyone can get it instantly, but no! The publishing companies are strangling the libraries and giving them only so many downloads, and only so many at a time.

  161. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    reformed nymphomaniacs

    And what, praytell, is a reformed nymphomaniac? A prude? A nun / monk? A person who has only Approved™ sex?

  162. carlie says

    So, Kagin just wrote a post apologizing about how he’s self-righteous. Or, at least, that’s how I choose to interpret that post.*

    *note: I am entirely wrong in this interpretation.

  163. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    I’ve been listening to music. I’ve been listening to this (but not the live version) a bit. It is a pretty sad song, but one line that always gets me is the one that goes
    The libertine has lost his arms and now he wants mine, oh no.

    Sorry, it makes me laugh EVERY TIME.

    I’m also laughing my head off at this song, because (1) YES and (2) the backstory to this song actually makes it EVEN BETTER.

  164. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Ichthy:

    ah, but can you zoom on them?

    if you’re not sure, can you zoom in on images (not text, pictures)?

    According to this YouTube video, yes. You can zoom in on the whole page, much like the web browser.

    Bear in mind, the Fire is whoa small compared to other tablets. If you’ve used any other Kindle, it’s the same size (just a little bit thicker and heavier). It’s like a gnat compared to the iPad.

  165. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Also:

    Your Kindle Fire displays PDF documents natively with built in Adobe PDF reader allowing you to view the PDF without losing any of the original formatting. You can zoom in on PDFs by pinching to expand or compress the display. You can also magnify PDFs by viewing them in landscape mode.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200788310

    It’s becoming apparent that I am not using my Kindle to its full potential! For shame!

  166. says

    Well, I think it’s important here to distinguish between two different senses of the word “faith”. There’s “faith” in the narrow epistemological sense of “believing in things which are not supported by evidence”, and I think that’s what you’re criticizing (and reasonably so). But in my experience the word is also used in broader senses – “faith groups”, “faith traditions”, “interfaith” and so on – to refer to religious groups in general. Unitarian Universalism is usually referred to (including by its adherents) as “a faith”, for instance, but it doesn’t impose any kind of creed or dogma and doesn’t require belief in a literal god.

    The “broader senses” are based on the narrower sense. And I’ve provided links to extensive discussion of mine and cr’s argument about the moral nonneutrality of faith. You’re free to argue with the substance of those at any time. Until then, please stop making assertions and issuing challenges that have already been met.

    And please stop with the snotty new-convert lectures about people like Ophelia who’ve been involved in these struggles since you were in grade school. She’s done a fuckton more than you have to fight bigotry.

    ***

    And in case you or anyone else is about to start making snarky comments about how I must be defending Ophelia because she’s my friend – preemptively feel free to piss off.

    Oh, ignore Josh. There he goes, as usual, drive-by jumping into a thread, maybe inadvertently insulting people without familiarizing thimself with the context or reading the relevant posts. Good ol’ silly inconsidered Josh. Bless his heart, ignore his insults, and don’t bother responding as if he knows what he’s talking about or trying to understand where he’s coming from. The only decent and charitable response is to recognize that he’s not responsible for his words.

  167. consciousness razor says

    I don’t think there’s always a positive moral obligation in all imaginable circumstances to be truthful about what one believes; one can easily envision particular factual circumstances in which it would be morally better to lie than to tell the truth.

    It certainly seems like you think it’s meaningful to talk about “moral obligations” and what is the “morally better” thing to do. If you want to raise some kind of objection against rationalism in ethics, rather than merely express your confusion about it, this wouldn’t be a valid move.

    But as you said, this stuff about lying is separate from the problem with faith. One doesn’t need faith in a belief to lie about it.

  168. SallyStrange (Bigger on the Inside), Spawn of Cthulhu says

    I hope you’re all happy! You broke Kagin!

    Seriously, anyone who un-ironically refers to himself as a “lawyer-poet” needs to mocked on general principle.

  169. Ichthyic says

    It’s like a gnat compared to the iPad.

    Yeah, I’m also realizing my notebook is over 3 years old now.

    maybe… it’s finally time I took another look at Apple.

    could be the current small-form Ipad would really be the all-around “ticket” as it were.

    when I first looked at them, they were still to heavy and cumbersome to be decent readers, but I’ve heard that’s come a long way in the last couple of years.

  170. Ichthyic says

    It’s becoming apparent that I am not using my Kindle to its full potential! For shame!

    happy to be of service?

    ;)

  171. says

    Sally:

    Seriously, anyone who un-ironically refers to himself as a “lawyer-poet” needs to mocked on general principle.

    There once was a lawyer who bloggled.
    His glasses got terribly foggled
       When his screeds were dismissed.
       Incredibly pissed,
    He hoggled and hoggled and hoggled.

  172. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    SC – go fuck yourself. Where do you get off saying I was jumping into the middle of someone else’s conversations? Seriously – piss off.

  173. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    The only decent and charitable response is to recognize that he’s not responsible for his words.

    And if you’re making an ugly accusation spit it out explicitly. I have no interest in playing this stupid game with you publicly but I will call you on your bullshit conversational moves.

  174. walton says

    And please stop with the snotty new-convert lectures about people like Ophelia who’ve been involved in these struggles since you were in grade school. She’s done a fuckton more than you have to fight bigotry.

    I know. I never said otherwise; in fact I’ve gone out of my way on several occasions to express respect for her (something you recently told me to stop doing, in fact, and I did). But that obviously doesn’t mean I can’t criticize her when I think she’s wrong about something. I had no intention of coming across as “snotty”, and if I did so, I apologize; but I make no apology for saying so when I think someone’s approach to an issue is wrong.

    Oh, ignore Josh. There he goes, as usual, drive-by jumping into a thread, maybe inadvertently insulting people without familiarizing thimself with the context or reading the relevant posts.

    I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about here, or what it has to do with anything either Josh or I said on the subject.

  175. walton says

    Seriously, anyone who un-ironically refers to himself as a “lawyer-poet” needs to mocked on general principle.

    Ha. I was just going to say something of the kind. It would be rather odd if PZ started headlining all his posts with “Atheist-Biologist-Cephalopod-Enthusiast Paul Zachary Myers thinks…”

    If, assuming that I succeed in my chosen profession, I ever develop delusions of grandeur and start referring to myself as a “lawyer-poet”, please feel free to slap me around the head with a wet haddock.*

    (*Using the technique outlined in this video.)

  176. says

    SC – go fuck yourself. Where do you get off saying I was jumping into the middle of someone else’s conversations? Seriously – piss off.

    I responded to you at some length on the previous thread. KG and I were having an argument with Ophelia on the Islamophobe thread, which I left. She then posted a misrepresentation of our position, to which you responded in agreement. I quoted your response. Either you knew about the conversation in which you were intervening, in which case you were agreeing with her and insulting our intelligence, or you didn’t, in which case you were commenting without knowledge of the context and without making an attempt to obtain it. You’ve already said you hadn’t really read her post, and it’s clear you hadn’t read the preceding 11 or 12 comments.

    You can’t have it both ways: either you knowingly disagreed with and misrepresented and insulted me, in which case I have every right to respond, or you’re asking that people assume you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about as a rule.

    I’m happy to ignore you, but I’m not going to let your snide asides or your attacks on me here or anywhere pass without comment.

  177. says

    But that obviously doesn’t mean I can’t criticize her when I think she’s wrong about something.

    You’re not just disagreeing with her. You’re ignorantly presenting her blog in an inaccurate way.

  178. David Marjanović says

    I tried to post the first part of this 2 days ago. Then the Internet connection was severed (physically, because of construction), was only reestablished the next morning, and I haven’t had time since… now I’m staying up way too late… oh, it’s past 5 am. *slow-motion headdesk*

    kristinc, *hugs* *chocolate* *tea with honeybush* *more hugs* If depression starts just so, go see a doctor.

    Also, welcome in Alukonis and Scott! The water’s a bit sharky, but you’ll get used to it.

    :-D So true, so true!

    The funny thing is, every apartment complex I’ve ever lived in has been filled with both Mexicans and drugs and I’ve never had a problem related to either.

    :-D

    You can hang out with ANYBODY.

    See, that’s what I don’t get. Don’t you ever want to hang out with a specific person? Don’t you ever miss a specific person?

    One you, in the extreme case, love? Are you aromantic?

    The same bullshit social ‘rule’ that says women are supposed to sit there and ‘drop hints’ and wait for men to ask them out, and that there’s something ‘off’ about a woman who’s too forward, is the reason I’m going to die alone.

    Emigrate.

    I mean, nobody has ever approached me either (I’m a 29-year-old virgin, remember?), but that’s because I know so few people and don’t go to bars. Not the entire Western world is still as deep in patriarchy as the US of A.

    I risk sounding like a Mommy but, “It’s a part of growing up, dear.”

    Not everyone grows up, though. :-) I’m trying to say I’ve never freaked out like that, and I don’t think that’s just because of lack of opportunities.

    “we are pregnant”, meaning the expecting parents

    *facepalm*

    Just think of that in French or Spanish.

    While I agree with recognizing the genocide, I don’t think punishing the denial is a good thing to do.

    Why? Didn’t we see benefits of this in Germany?

    Fun thing is, the German (and Austrian) situation is different.

    I don’t know exactly what the wording of the German law is; the Austrian one forbids “making National Socialism appear harmless”. If you do that, for instance by claiming the Holocaust didn’t happen or has been exaggerated, the law assumes you’re lying, because if you’ve gone to school in Austria (or Germany), it’s simply not possible that you don’t know better.

    The French law really does directly forbid denying that genocide, it doesn’t (AFAIK) say anything about an ideology, there wasn’t much of an ideology behind the genocide in the first place (just “they’re probably traitors who collaborate with Russia and the rest of the West, and they’re Christians like the Russians and the rest of the West”, during a war with Russia and most of the rest of the West), few if any of the people who deny it have gone to school in France, there’s no tradition of deniers taking over France (…as opposed to Turkey…!) and making life miserable for Armenians or anyone else, and, well, I don’t think much about it is taught in schools anywhere outside the Republic of Armenia. It’s an underresearched subject.

    I think it’s a case of Sarkozy wanting to be for good and against evil and not giving it a lot of thought – except as it relates to the upcoming election.

    You know, Ben, for someone who claims to not be able to read social clues and who would like people to be more forward, you seem to read a lot more into what everyone here says about you than I do.

    Of course. He’s overcompensating. :-|

    Turkey, which still doesn’t recognise the Armenian genocide IIRC

    Indeed it doesn’t.

    Nicotine doesn’t “clog your system”. It’s a mild stimulant, no more, no less.

    I agree with everything else you’ve said in this context, but nicotine does, in fact, slow down impulse propagation along nerves.

    Rachel Maddow is a national treasure. The way she geeked out over the “city on a hill” reference was adorable

    Who made that reference, and what exactly was it like?

    If I can’t figure these [abbreviations] out, how must they look to non USAnians?

    Familiar. Here in Austria, we have UHBP, “Our Mr. Federal President”.

    And somehow, Karlheinz Grasser, for whom the presumption of innocence has been in effect so often, is abbreviated French-style as KHG.

    A lot of the deniers and anti-Semites also manage to go on just fine by creative use of dog-whistling: instead of speaking about a “Jewish lobby”, they hint about “Israeli influence”, and so on.

    Or “the East Coast”. Yes, the US one, but that’s not mentioned.

    Unless, of course, Caribou Barbie ever makes it to the throneWhite House: I gather Todd was all set to be First Dude.

    :-D :-D :-D

    She explained how terrifying she found Holocaust denial – she felt it as a fully intentional threat to do the same again.

    When asked in an Austrian court if he thought the Holocaust had happened, a well-known neo-Nazi said at first: “I have friends who say ‘unfortunately not'”.

    That was a death threat.

    It’s -8°C here. And that’s much warmer than it has been recently.

    Over here it’s finally freezing…

    Sally: My dreams tend to be just as surreal, but with less of a plot, and seldom as violent.

    Seconded.

    Rev BDC, #424: I think Nelson Muntz has a word for that….

    =8-)

    Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land. – The oldest law code in existence flows directly from religion.

    The oldest one that was 1) written down and 2) preserved.

    Writing is a very, very young invention.

    It’s clear what’s going on here: Hammurabi collected laws, and in order to give them and himself authority he enlisted the gods.

    Now in our society today, if you poison people in the state of Texas (lets say children or strangers, what happens? That seems to be todays morality.

    Texas, or morality?

    Seriously.

    Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.

    And?

    I mean in Maoism religion was seen equivalent of feudalism and foreign colonialism. Houses of worship, including temples, mosques, and churches, were converted into non-religious buildings for secular use. Is this not Atheism in action?

    Maoism is quite literally Mao worship. The only difference to worshipping a pharao as Horus was the lack of an afterlife; the afterlife is restricted to Kimilsungism.

    How atheism is a religion: you give those new atheist journalists preeminent place of scholarship, you give their opinions worship. You venerate science. You adore naturalistic philosophy as bastardised by Daniel Dennett and such. Is that not giving worth? Giving worth to prioritising morality is worship. This is adoration and veneration to a group and its concepts.

    Wrong, and you know it.

    She was able to catch a cab and get away because a complete stranger outside the bar saw what was going on, threw his arm around the drunk date’s shoulders, yelled “Buddy! How ya BEEN?” and distracted hm while she made her escape :)

    :-)

    The big short-term questions now, I’d say, are whether the Eurozone will collapse

    Too big to fail. Merkozy and others simply won’t let it collapse.

    I really don’t understand all the adoration of Neil Gaiman. I’ve only ever read Neverwhere, which was highly recommended to me, and I couldn’t get into it

    I can’t get into it more literally. On the first pages, there’s already a love story. I can’t read on. I’m not in a mood for that.

    You know, if a man were here saying that he doesn’t like to hang out with the women he fucks, everyone would be jumping on him for being creepy.

    Power differential.

    Also. Plants are non-living objects?

    You just misread planets.

    we see the same thing with super-patriotic idiots who are convinced that Their Country can do no wrong

    Or, perhaps worse, the scarier interpretations of “my country, right or wrong, my country”.

    Oh yes. Not sure if he changed his name or not but it was Alan Kellogg.

    aka mythusmage

    FML

    For my loss?

    OMG, look behind you!
    (steals line)

    Damn! You beat me to it!

    *shakes fist*

    There once was a lawyer who bloggled.
    His glasses got terribly foggled
    When his screeds were dismissed.
    Incredibly pissed,
    He hoggled and hoggled and hoggled.

    X-D

  179. nms says

    don’t know if Alukonis is still around but I have two cents and I intend to give them:

    Based on what you’ve said it sounds like you have some deep issues around sexual intimacy and probably intimacy in general. Talking with a therapist would be a good idea.

  180. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Jon Stewart on newts moon base: Newt sees that the earth is really sick and now wants to leave it for another planet.

    gold

  181. says

    For my loss?

    Fuck my life. (I had to look it up.)

    ***

    And by the way, Josh, if the situation were reversed and you’d been arguing with Ophelia, and then she’d misrepresented you and quoted something bigoted and I’d popped in to express my agreement and suggest that those arguing with her were dense, ignoring the bigoted quotation and then disappearing, you would have the same reaction, and you know it. And I would expect you to and ultimately want you to. I wouldn’t attack you for it or suggest that you were a mean, awful person for commenting on it, wanting an explanation, trying to understand my motives, or expressing surprise. It’s not right that you turn almost every disagreement with me into a bashing of my supposed bad character and don’t care about the fallout.

  182. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    This Kagin business has been just golden. I … really don’t think he’s cut out for blogging, actually.

  183. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    David M, I’m happy to accept the tea, chocolate and hugs, but I can’t go see a doctor. I live in the US, and we are freedom loving people who do not intend to let any commiesocialist gubmint get between us and our crippling, untreated depression :/

  184. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Fair notice, nothing more.

    Comment by SC (Salty Current), OM blocked. [unkill]​[show comment]

  185. Rey Fox says

    Bear in mind, the Fire is whoa small compared to other tablets.

    It’s the same size as other 7″ tablets. I wanted a big tablet at first, but decided to get a small one (HTC Evo View…thanks for giving it the same name as your most popular phone plus a random stupid word, HTC) to save money, and I’m glad I did, because it’s more portable (I couldn’t have surfed the web while in line at the pharmacy with an iPad), and I can use it as an in-car GPS with just its leather case and one of those dashboard sticky pads (it’s only ever fallen when I’ve had to brake really hard). With enough ambient light and the screen dimmed enough, it doesn’t strain my eyes.

  186. walton says

    You’re not just disagreeing with her. You’re ignorantly presenting her blog in an inaccurate way.

    No, I’m not. I was critical of some of her commenters (as you have been), but I went to great pains to make clear throughout that I was not intending to criticize her personally and that I actually agree with most of what she writes. I did form the erroneous impression that most of her posts were about Islam, but Josh corrected me and I accepted that, because I shouldn’t have generalized from the very short time I’ve been reading her blog. But nowhere did I misrepresent her blog (I didn’t even say anything very much about the actual content of her blog, just about some of the commenters there).

    And now I’m not interested in rehashing this yet again. I’ve wasted an evening on this already, and it isn’t productive.

  187. walton says

    But nowhere did I misrepresent her blog

    …the content or the opinions expressed therein, that is. (As I said in the previous sentence, I did erroneously form the impression that she was writing mostly about Islam, and I apologize for that.)

  188. says

    DrDMFM:

    Rachel Maddow is a national treasure. The way she geeked out over the “city on a hill” reference was adorable

    Who made that reference, and what exactly was it like?

    In his (wretched, fearmongering) official reply to the State of the Union (hah! no acronym!), Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels called upon his audience to make “our ‘city on a hill’ shine once again,” referencing Ronald Reagan, who in turn was referencing JFK’s reference to Puritan leader John Winthrop’s 1630 sermon A Model of Christian Charity, which in turn referenced Jesus’ admonition in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:14) that “[y]ou are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.”

    Somewhere in that long, strange trip (primarily with Reagan), that warning to be good, because everyone was watching got converted to a declaration of American exceptionalism, and the shining city on the hill became an annoying right-wing trope for the U.S. as a Beacon of All That Is Good™.

    The good Dr. Maddow couldn’t resist reaching back to the Winthrop sermon to point out that the original city didn’t shine! It was a minor, ultimately inconsequential, point, but the geeky passion with which she insisted on it was, as I said, adorable.

    The rest of her analysis was much more substantive, and made of weapons-grade WIN.

  189. Ichthyic says

    hmm, looks to me that the Nook color tablet is actually a better machine than the kindle fire:

    -expandable memory (takes up to 32gb SD cards)
    -slightly higher contrast screen
    -longer battery life
    -faster, dual-core CPU

    it is, however, also 50 bucks more.

    so, last question for folks, and this one is for people who own an ipad:

    just how often do you drag it around with you? Does it feel more like something you take everywhere, or just something you keep in your backpack and drag out when you get where you’re going?

  190. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Ich, I know you said that question was for Ipad people, but. . . with my tablet (1.6 pounds, bulkier than normal, but I need USB ports and such) I take it with me everywhere. It goes in my bag, or on the front seat of my car. It gives me GPS driving directions. I used it this morning to look up a phone number in an email while I was locked out of a building where I had an early meeting.

    Since I don’t have a smart phone this thing allows me to leave the laptop on my desk and have most everything I need anyway.

  191. says

    Ichthyic:

    -expandable memory (takes up to 32gb SD cards)
    -slightly higher contrast screen
    -longer battery life
    -faster, dual-core CPU

    it is, however, also 50 bucks more.

    Yes, but the above is why I’ll be buying a Nook. I have SD cards all over the place, so there’s no extra cost in that for me.

    Also, I do business with B&N, not Amazon. There’s a B&N local to me, if there are problems or I need help with it.

  192. walton says

    Yes, you have been.

    Care to provide some specific examples? If I’ve misrepresented her opinion on something, as I may have done, then I’ll retract it and apologize. But I haven’t said much at all about her opinions.

    And I really wish you’d stop being so condescending. I don’t know what the hell you expect from me. Especially given that, up until just now, I thought you agreed with the criticisms I was making; you haven’t even bothered to explain what I’ve apparently done wrong. You do this pretty much every time I disagree with you; it often feels as if you just want me to shut up about social and political matters, on the ground that you think I’m too young and ignorant to have a meaningful opinion about them. I can’t do that, because I care about these questions and their impact on people’s lives, and I think I have good reasons for doing so.

  193. Ichthyic says

    well, at the moment, for the first time in a while money is not the issue for me (it’s more just how much junk to carry around).

    I’m leaning heavily towards this:

    http://reviews.cnet.com/tablets/asus-eee-pad-transformer/4505-3126_7-35089447.html?tag=mncol

    with the keyboard doc, it does everything both a tablet AND a reader AND a laptop can do, with a quad core processor in it!

    Just a coincidence, but my current laptop is also an ASUS, and it’s the best laptop I’ve ever owned.

    most of the reader and user commentary from people who’ve owned both Ipad and the Asus prime say that they actually like the Asus better, and it doesn’t have the inane restrictions the ipad does.

    so, I think I’ll go all out and grab this thing.

    it will be about 400.00 more than a nook (second choice), but the flexibility in use is no comparison.

    my only question was whether the 10″ tablets were really as portable as they seemed, and with that resolved:

    with my tablet (1.6 pounds, bulkier than normal, but I need USB ports and such) I take it with me everywhere. It goes in my bag, or on the front seat of my car. It gives me GPS driving directions. I used it this morning to look up a phone number in an email while I was locked out of a building where I had an early meeting.

    (thanks Josh)

    I think I have my choice.

  194. says

    Ichthyic:

    I’m leaning heavily towards this:

    http://reviews.cnet.com/tablets/asus-eee-pad-transformer/4505-3126_7-35089447.html?tag=mncol

    with the keyboard doc, it does everything both a tablet AND a reader AND a laptop can do, with a quad core processor in it!

    I have a little netbook that’s pretty much just like that and got it for $100.00 at Best Buy ($125.00 off, due to a recent wireless unit purchase.) It’s a Samsung, and works beautifully. That’s what I currently carry around when I’m traveling, but even though it’s very small, it’s still a pain in the ass to haul around.

    Just a coincidence, but my current laptop is also an ASUS, and it’s the best laptop I’ve ever owned.

    Eh, my first Asus was good, the current one is a piece of shit. (Asus K52N).

  195. Pteryxx says

    Ichthyic: what laptop? I have to get a new one, my current is Asus, and I’d stick with them if I possibly can – but I don’t have much money.

  196. Ichthyic says

    what laptop?

    m50vm

    http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4573

    http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Multimedia_Entertainment/M50Vm/

    never had a single problem with this laptop in 3.5 years of VERY heavy use.

    Only thing I did was upgrade to Vista Pro.

    after 3.5 years, I’m finally seeing signs the cooling fan is starting to wear out and will need to be replaced soon. Other than that? no issues. I typically expect at least Hard drive issues after 2 years on a laptop, but nothing.

    still, even though it’s a laptop, and I can carry it “to” places, it just isn’t like you’re gonna whip it out on the bus for some light reading, take it to the beach, etc.

  197. says

    It is really sinking in as to why people warn against female rats. Jesus in frilly pink panties, I’m about ready to lock Esme up and throw away the key. I’m out of my fucking mind to even consider getting a Gytha and Magrat. I told Mister this morning that I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find she’s created a parachute out of paper one of these days, just so she can continue to get into places she’s not allowed. Eeesh.

  198. Pteryxx says

    Apparently my ASUS is an F3JV, and I’ve been working the hell out of it since 2004.

    …but $1500 is cheap? Argh…

  199. grumpyoldfart says

    I don’t have an email address for PZ, so will post the story here and see what happens:

    Bible League International has announced a partnership with the Digital Bible Society to create a microSD card filled with Christian literature, which can be smuggled into oppressive nations and be offered to persecuted people.

    Countries such as China and Saudi Arabia do not permit the ownership of unapproved religious materials, and breaches of this rule can lead to jail and even possible execution.

    http://global.christianpost.com/news/bibles-to-be-smuggled-into-persecuted-nations-using-microsd-cards-67990/

    Is it OK for these Christians to break the smuggling laws?

    Does the Bible League have lawyers ready to defend those who may eventually face the death penalty? Or will they be be left to sort it out on their own?

  200. says

    Care to provide some specific examples? If I’ve misrepresented her opinion on something, as I may have done, then I’ll retract it and apologize. But I haven’t said much at all about her opinions.

    No – if I have time tomorrow to open the previous thread, I’ll pull out some quotes. I wasn’t suggesting that you’d said anything about her opinions directly, but more “this is the sort of element her blog attracts” and that you’re likely to avoid it. I think she has a blind spot on this issue and that she’s indulgent with commenters generally (that’s neither a compliment nor an insult – just an observation), but I do consider her a friend (and I‘m not afraid to say that plays a role) and I think you’re unfairly generalized on the basis of a handful of posts, as you’ve to some extent acknowledged.

    For someone so ready to cozy up to religious groups you seem pretty quick to turn away from some other atheists.

    And I really wish you’d stop being so condescending. I don’t know what the hell you expect from me.

    Well, I’d like if fewer of your posts were repetitive long lectures. Feel free to say the same about mine.

  201. Therrin says

    Does the Bible League have lawyers ready to defend those who may eventually face the death penalty? Or will they be be left to sort it out on their own?

    Each SD card comes complete with cyanide capsule in case of discovery.

  202. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ KG

    Pharyngula could do with more historical debates, my own amateur attempts to light a spark notwithstanding. (nudge of encouragement)

    @ Ing/Pteryxx

    ask them why they don’t edit the bible to remove the horrible stuff they disagree with.

    Well, Kurt Wise (the xtian geologist) really did try this once. It came down to the integrity of the bible. Here we mean physical integrity (as opposed to “sanctity”) – by cutting out the bad bits with a scissors, the bible literally fell to pieces in his hand. He resolved therefore not to try it again … and became a Liar-for-jeebus ™ instead.

    @ Irene Delse

    That’s why when theists try to fashion their religion into something more progressive, humanistic and inclusive.

    Atheism is a little narrow. I think the critique made of her position is valid only from a purely atheist perspective. But we should rather be wearing our humanist hats or injecting our atheism with a more humanist perspective. So yes, I would tend to agree with you. It is better to help lead her to the escape hatch than prod her with a stick.

    @ Benjamin

    Thanks for the cool squirrel pic. Looks like you got really up close. What where you shooting with?

    @ Ichthyic

    I take my kindle (b&w, 3G, keyboard) with me whenever I have to travel. The battery life is fantastic (as in weeks per charge). I also slip it into my jacket when I go to long-winded meetings and read surreptitiously. It is one investment I certainly do not regret having made.

    (I am also a big fan of Asus Eeepc, so don’t know what to advise.)

    @ All

    Newts in outer space! Chthonic Bovine… I had better stockpile more CL-20!

  203. Alukonis, metal ninja says

    I just control-F’d my name, read the comments, then went on a half hour crying jag that I’m just coming out of.

    I’m making an appointment with a therapist tomorrow.

    Just in case anyone wondered what was going on. Open thread comments clearly are not the medium in which to try and figure out what the fuck my problem is, so, I’m taking the advice to consult a professional in person.

    There is no way to not make this comment sound incredibly emo, so I guess I am an emosaurus. Sorry.

  204. John Morales says

    Alukonis, good luck. Really.

    (Maybe this place will make you cry, but no-one is pushing you away)

  205. Ichthyic says

    …but $1500 is cheap? Argh…

    sorry, it was middle of the road for price when I bought it.

    I can’t make any recommendations on the really cheap end.

    every lower-end laptop I’ve ever bought died in a year or less (2 dells, one other I’ve forgotten the brand of).

    All I can say, is that ASUS is one of the best choices, bang for buck wise, so I think you’re safe sticking with them; there are lots of models to choose from.

    I typically see what NewEgg is offering in the ASUS line; they seem to do pretty well picking out what works and what doesn’t.

    and NewEgg is probably the best online store I’ve ever dealt with for price, speed, and return policy.

    lots of cheaper ASUS models there:

    http://www.newegg.com/Store/BrandSubCategory.aspx?Brand=1315&SubCategory=32&Tpk=asus%20laptop

  206. John Morales says

    Esteleth:

    I am a diest (a Quaker, for the record). The kind of faith that I like is the non-evangelical, humanistic variety.

    Really? How quaint.

    When I say “faith,” that’s what I mean. And I don’t see it as inherently bad – or inherently good. It is, as I’ve said, morally neutral.

    You consider self-indulgence morally neutral, eh?

    Hm.

    I’d like to think it makes me a better person and drives me to do good stuff. Maybe I’m deluded.

    No more than any other goddist, I guess.

  207. Alukonis, metal ninja says

    I accept all anklehugs, so long as no claws are involved (I have cats, hence qualifier)

    Of course I would totally have a squid, except, um, squid aren’t cuddly? >_>

  208. says

    Alukonis:

    There is no way to not make this comment sound incredibly emo, so I guess I am an emosaurus. Sorry.

    There’s nothing to be sorry for at all. You tried to share something going on in your life and that can be more than a bit difficult in a text medium, to say the least. You also got quite a few comments that weren’t terribly helpful.

    Good luck with the therapist, remember, you’re the client and if the therapist isn’t a good fit for you, find another. I hope this helps you to sort out the stuff you want sorted and to feel better about the stuff you don’t have any problems with. Hugses.

  209. Pteryxx says

    I accept all anklehugs, so long as no claws are involved…

    …Damn. She’s on to me. ~;>

  210. Alukonis, metal ninja says

    I know your game, Pteryxx! Your winky bird face doesn’t fool me!

    In all seriousness, though, thank you for the well wishes.

  211. SallyStrange (Bigger on the Inside), Spawn of Cthulhu says

    Shucks Alukonis, I didn’t comment much on your situation before, but I was never skeeved or creeped out by your approach. I thought maybe there were things you could do to make yourself and your friend/date partner more comfortable, but that’s different. It does seem like talking to a therapist would be a good move. But in any case allow me to reiterate Pteryxx’s well wishes. I think you’ll probably do just fine however you decide to play things.

  212. says

    Good morning

    Alkunis
    I’m glad to hear that and I hope you find a therapist with whom you can work quickly. I know that’s not an easy decision (fuck stigma on mental health issues), but it’s a good one.

    OP video
    Well, problem I have with the ABCD check is that I have several moles that fit all 4 criteria, yet if they were cancer I’d be dead by now (they have been that way for the last 20 years).
    But interesting to hear that skin-cancer is a young people’s disease. Over here you get check-ups when you are 35.
    Germany has banned tan salons for minors. recently a teen, her parents and their salon sued against the law and lost. Clear indication that some people are not fit to make medical decisions for minors

    kritinc
    They are little darlings, aren’t they?
    The last days I have been browsing “Shit my kids ruined”, which makes me feel pretty lucky so far…

    Talking about kids and water:
    When I picked up #1 at the kindergarten yesterday, #2 tried to sneak into the kindergarten bathroom (yes, where the sinks and taps are especially designed to be operated by small hands).
    When I asked her “What are you doing in there?” she told me
    “Pssst, that’s a secret!”
    Somehow I’m feeling blessed with the psychic ability to predict more than one school-appointment with that kid….

  213. nms says

    Alukonis, good luck therapist-hunting.

    Also, you aren’t a shallow asshole. If you were, you wouldn’t be here talking about this.

  214. says

    Hey, Aussies! (And all anti-homophobic people who feel inclined to help.) Go here and vote for anyone who is ***NOT*** Margaret Court for National Living Treasure!
    http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/vote.aspx?v=&q=235707

    Links to bios here: http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/celebrity/celebrityheadlines/8405013/national-living-treasures

    If you’re not up to researching them all, I recommend Robyn Archer, Elizabeth Blackburn, Tom Calma, Ian Frazer, Tim Flannery, Geoffrey Robertson, Mandaway Yunupingu. Though there are other worthy people there, too.

    Stop the AVN is pushing for Frazer (the Gardasil inventor.) You only get one vote, but there’s 7 vacancies. Room to go for your fave scientist or social activist.

  215. says

    And now the catchup…

    @Alukonis, I didn’t know you were a woman, and either way I didn’t think you were creepy. Strange, yes. With some serious issues, oh yes. But you lacked the entitlement and dishonesty to qualify for creepy. And strange isn’t a bad thing in my book, and who the hell doesn’t have issues? I sure do, though of a different variety. I wish you luck with the therapy. *ehugs* if you want them.

    As to the ereader thing, I use reader apps on my iPad. The first gen “heavy and cumbersome” one. I have a large enough bag that I can carry it most places. It works very well, and for me the size is a major plus. I personally find the kindle screen annoyingly small. Yes, it glows, but most apps have configurable settings for the display – low light, white on black if you prefer. I usually set it to black on dull cream and low brightness.

    re Neil Gaiman: the adoration mostly comes from the Sandman graphic novel series. His more recent work is not so good, IMO. Yeah, I’m a fan, and I like Amanda Palmer too. And seriously, expecting a bunch of artists to be politically aware, let alone politically correct is pretty daft. I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship or close friendship with either of them, but fortunately that’s not relevant. Humans. Flawed, clever, creative, interesting, never perfect.

    Kagin gets a similar pass from me. He’s past it. Done some good things, been on the right side of the anti-bigotry fights, but he’s been left behind. He ossified and history overtook him. Humans.

    And a question to the Dutch speakers – does anyone say “U” anymore, or is it all jij? I’ve been watching a torrented TV show which randomly turned out to have Dutch subtitles, and even people first meeting a police officer call him “je”.

  216. says

    Alethea:

    Kagin gets a similar pass from me. He’s past it. Done some good things, been on the right side of the anti-bigotry fights, but he’s been left behind. He ossified and history overtook him.

    I don’t give him a pass, especially on the basis of age. I’m getting very tired of that excuse, “oh, he/she is of a different generation, yada, yada, yada”.

    I’m old enough to pull that nonsense, but I don’t. Things, people, society, all that, was very different when I was young. I like to think I have the brains to keep up with how things have changed and realize it when I end up hanging onto dinothoughts.

    Kagin presents himself as a rational free thinker. Recently, he’s shown himself to be anything but and it’s right for people to call him out on that. He’s not helping and doing damage by stubbornly hanging onto outmoded views and presenting them as perfectly rational and acceptable.

    From the way he writes, he doesn’t think he’s “past it”, especially as he’s bothering to blog. He simply doesn’t want to be criticized and he sure as hell doesn’t want to do any thinking about his viewpoints.

  217. says

    Uhm, I think today my counsellor asked me if I had been raped in my life. Only that he very decidedly did not ask me that.
    Well, since that fortunately isn’t something I have to deal with, I’ll just file it.
    Some new ideas about me, myself, I and this little problem of mine and I’m starting to work on it NOW.

  218. says

    I agree with that, Caine, and I’m also 50 and hopefully not too ossified. It’s not the age per se, it’s how he aged. Kagin didn’t HAVE to be left behind, and turn into a dinosaur, but somehow, somewhere or other he got stuck. And that’s a very common phenomenon.

    What I’m saying is that nobody’s perfect, we all fuck up to some extent. He was once a decent guy, and he’s now fucked up and can’t see it, and is just deeply embarrassing in public. He’s wrong and I wish he would stop it, but I feel more pity than disgust at his flailing. He did good once, and that’s still something to value.

  219. says

    Alukonis:

    If you talk at length in a public forum of things you do that by your own admission hurt others, you are not entitled to a 100% positive response, even if you own your behavior. You will offend, discomfit, possibly even trigger some people.

    No, I wasn’t triggered. I was creeped out. Other people don’t have to agree that your comments were creepy. However, the lack of patriarchal backing for your behavior does not make my feelings wrong.

    I’m sorry you were upset. Yes, that’s a fauxpology. I’m not going to apologize for voicing my discomfort in as diplomatic a way as I could. I’m not the world’s most diplomatic person and never will be. I wish I were better at it. That said, if the choice is between speaking up and possibly offending someone, and saying nothing but feeling resentful, I’m going to say something.

    And, quite honestly, I find your last comment really fucking manipulative.

  220. says

    And I’m out of TET for at least the remainder of this thread, because I was crying and upset last night over this shit — it pushes my buttons liek woah when I speak up about things that bug me and I’m whined at about it and called “cruel” (fuck you, Chigau), because I got enough of that crap growing up. I don’t need a second fucking rasher of that shit.

    tl;dr: This thread isn’t anybody’s fucking personal therapy session to the extent that anyone else who’s bothered by their revelations has to shut up about them.

  221. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Oh, are we still talking about e-readers?

    Last night, I found out that my Kindle is small enough to fit in the kangaroo pocket of my favorite sweatshirt. ♥!

  222. David Marjanović says

    nicotine does, in fact, slow down impulse propagation along nerves.

    ?

    Uh, sorry. Garbled reference to the cholinergic receptors you mentioned – in synapses, not along axons.

    Fuck My life

    Oh.

    :-S

    The young’uns just woke up, so what does Chas do? Promptly lies down in the middle of the salad plate. Such bad manners.

    ?

    David M, I’m happy to accept the tea, chocolate and hugs, but I can’t go see a doctor.

    :-( Then all I can do is wave my arms about light and sugar, offer flowers (click on the background), and quote onion girl:

    “*more hugs*

    *moremore hugs*”

    Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels called upon his audience to make “our ‘city on a hill’ shine once again,”

    Ah.

    The good Dr. Maddow couldn’t resist reaching back to the Winthrop sermon to point out that the original city didn’t shine!

    Ha! Awesome! :-)

    More on the shining city on a hill stuff, from MaddowBlog.

    “Shine on[,] you crazy city” :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    I typically expect at least Hard drive issues after 2 years on a laptop

    *blink* Seriously? I’m scared now. This laptop is something like 4 or 5 years old and has never had so much as a Blue Screen of Death!

    Alukonis, good luck therapist-hunting.

    Also, you aren’t a shallow asshole. If you were, you wouldn’t be here talking about this.

    All seconded. *hug*

    @Alukonis, I didn’t know you were a woman, and either way I didn’t think you were creepy. Strange, yes. With some serious issues, oh yes. But you lacked the entitlement and dishonesty to qualify for creepy. And strange isn’t a bad thing in my book, and who the hell doesn’t have issues? I sure do, though of a different variety. I wish you luck with the therapy. *ehugs* if you want them.

    Seconded, too.

    (…Your name looks somehow… Lithuanian and male. Disclaimer: I don’t know much about Lithuanian.)

  223. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    If you ever listen to music through your iPad (or other bluetooth device, it works with my Android and iPhone as well (yes i have both, work reasons, don’t ask)) and you need free hands / ability to roam around the room, I suggest looking at getting a Jawbone speaker.

    It’s bluetooth and portable as all hell and actually sounds pretty good considering. My wife got one for her iPad and we take it on trips. Really cool little device. I was pretty impressed that a bluetooth device of this size could produce the sound that it does.

    There are probably some other bluetooth speakers that work as well, but I haven’t tried them.

  224. David Marjanović says

    And, quite honestly, I find your last comment really fucking manipulative.

    I find it sick in a much more literal sense. I find it diagnostic of some illness or other.

    I can’t tell which one, so I’m happy Alukonis will go see a therapist instead of staying here and relying on Internet diagnoses.

  225. sisu says

    Good morning:

    on the e-reader subject: I have, and love, the Nook Color. I’ve easily been able to download e-books from my library – I just finished Parenting Beyond Belief, which I’ve been meaning to read for a long time. :)

    Off to read Kagin’s latest… but before I do, I’ll just add that I used to work at my local Legal Aid office. There were quite a few old white men there, who’d been there for 30+ years. Kagin reminds me so. much. of them. They got so used to being the Super Allies back in the 70’s and 80’s that they’re horrified and confused by pointing out any lingering homophobia, sexism, etc. they may have. They were the Phil Donohue/Alan Alda good guys! how dare you accuse them of being less than perfectly enlilghtened, when they’ve done so much for You People!

    That’s how I see Kagin… and why I no longer work at Legal Aid. (well, among other reasons.)

  226. says

    Monty Python stars reuniting for a science fiction comedy.

    oohhh-hooo, that’s probably good news.

    Other good news: i found out why our washing machine is occasionally leaking

    Better news: It’s not something that needs to be fixed, I just have to put the tab directly into the machine.

  227. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Irene Delse @ #78

    In the case of Manji, though, as with other progressive Muslims, we have someone who actively tries to reform Islam from the inside, who basically says that it shouldn’t be defined by the extremists and the conservatives. I’d say it’s a worthwhile endeavour, if only for the sake of a billion human beings who are nominally Muslims and deserve other options than the “back to the 7th Century” Islamism that we too often see.

    I don’t find any merit in her faith. I can’t imagine the cognitive dissonance she must maintain in order to reconcile Islam and herself. If she must attempt to reform Islam, and I don’t think she’s succeeding in any real way, I think she should at least be honest about Islam and honest with herself rather than lying. And make no mistake that she is lying, no matter how sincerely she may believe.

    Frankly, moderate Muslims, despite the fact that some extreme minority of them are trying to combat more conservative Muslim ideologies, provide an excuse for the ideologies of the very ones they are combating.

    In matters of faith, and faith is the turf upon which Manji has chosen to fight this particular battle, there is no way to discern between good and bad nor right and wrong. If she can have her lesbian loving, moderate Islam there is literally no reason someone can’t justify having a lesbian murdering Islam. On what basis and with what evidence might one convince a person of faith that their faith is mistaken? It’s not a rational belief and there’s the problem.

    She makes (mostly) rational, secular arguments, she speaks about the real problems in Islam and she does it from a position of faith. I find that problematic and I haven no doubt that to those she’s trying to reach, the lie is told; to them, she is no Muslim.

    Oh, I’d pick her and her silly version of Islam (What version isn’t silly?) over a Muslim extremist’s version, but I don’t like nor want either. In the end she’s espousing faith and I don’t care whether anything good might come from her particular faith, it’s sloppy, dangerous thinking and there is no excuse for it and there is no reason I, nor anyone else, should applaud her for lying to try to do good or even succeeding.

  228. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ Alethea

    does anyone say “U” anymore

    Definitely, but it is a bit stiff and I can well imagine that “je” is becoming more de rigeur. (I have been out of the loop for a while). The “correct” way to address someone you do not know is not always the most comfortable.

    Formally you should ask the person if you can use the term “jij”. The correct form would be: “Alethea, mogen wij elkaar tutoyeren?” (Sheesh!)

  229. says

    Rev. BigDumbChimp “26 January 2012 at 7:22 pm

    That bottle of Ardbeg Alligator I rescued from a life of loneliness on the shelf today is exposing my thirst by calling me like a tell tale malt”

    ‘Tell tale malt.’ Hmmm, was that a Poe?

  230. says

    Oh, I’d pick her and her silly version of Islam (What version isn’t silly?) over a Muslim extremist’s version, but I don’t like nor want either. In the end she’s espousing faith and I don’t care whether anything good might come from her particular faith, it’s sloppy, dangerous thinking and there is no excuse for it and there is no reason I, nor anyone else, should applaud her for lying to try to do good or even succeeding.

    Actually I think we should praise some of the lying because it does weaken the orthodoxy. I don’t want Islam/Christianity gone, I just want it secularized so much that it’s like liberal Judaism and thus can be ignored if someone so chooses.

  231. says

    As a side note on that argument: I suspect that the definition of “faith” presented as a subjective choice and all that jazz is a lot like the “Traditional Marriage” and is a very very new idea that was not shared in antiquity.

  232. walton says

    No – if I have time tomorrow to open the previous thread, I’ll pull out some quotes. I wasn’t suggesting that you’d said anything about her opinions directly, but more “this is the sort of element her blog attracts” and that you’re likely to avoid it. I think she has a blind spot on this issue and that she’s indulgent with commenters generally (that’s neither a compliment nor an insult – just an observation), but I do consider her a friend (and I‘m not afraid to say that plays a role) and I think you’re unfairly generalized on the basis of a handful of posts, as you’ve to some extent acknowledged.

    Yeah… having mulled over this issue overnight, I did, indeed, unfairly characterize the B&W commentariat with my post earlier on this thread. I’ve formed a skewed impression of the culture there because of the recent debates I’ve been involved in, but I should not have generalized about it without having read her blog for a long time (as I acknowledged to Josh yesterday). I apologize (to her and her commenters) for that.

    I’m very much hypersensitive to anti-Muslim sentiments generally (for reasons which I’ve explained and which I know you understand), and unfortunately this means that I sometimes fall prey to false positives and attack people unfairly for making reasoned criticisms of Islam. In this case I did so, and I’m sorry for that.

    (And I certainly can’t criticize her personally for tolerating the presence of commenters who espouse views which she doesn’t share, given that I do the same thing on my own blog.)

    For someone so ready to cozy up to religious groups you seem pretty quick to turn away from some other atheists.

    I have something to say in response to this, but I won’t expand on it now because I don’t have time to put my thoughts in order properly.

  233. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ Ing

    Our own (now even more famous) Daniel Dennet suggests a form of religious epidemiology, whereby all religions become secularised to the point that they are as harmless as astrology or a mild case of the sniffles. Essentially something that can be ignored as one goes about one’s secular life. (And this is precisely what scares seven styles of shit out of the seriously religious.)

  234. says

    theophontes:

    Yeah, I was fairly close. I figure he was maybe ten feet up the tree, and I was standing a few feet away from the tree.

    I was using my 55-250 f/4-5.6 IS lens, which is one of my go-to lenses (as it’s the only long glass I own). For that shot, I was racked out at 250mm. Not too shabby for a lens that retails for $250. (I paid $180 for it used.)

  235. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    *flail*
    There are BACTERIA growing in my mammalian cell cultures! *flail*
    Fuck.

    WRT moderate or progressive religious people trying to establish a moderate/progressive version of a religion, I’m in favor. Yes, I’m biased, I admit it. My reasoning is pretty simple (at least to me): the jump from full-fledged thousand-year-old nonsense to full-fledged reason-based atheism is a big one. Some people can make it in one go. Some people can’t, for whatever reason. Not all of those reasons involve stupidity and laziness (some do). If people see their only options as “submit to a deranged Bronze Age belief system that isn’t applicable to the modern world, and in return be accepted by my friends, family, and society” and “reject all of the above and (in many places) thus risk my life,” many people will choose the former. Yes, it is not the brave choice, but it is a choice that many make, for a stack of varied reasons. I’d rather see a third option of “accept a ‘lite’ version of a deranged Bronze Age belief system that is semi-applicable to the modern world and allows some wiggle room, and in return get at least grudging respect and acceptance from friends, family and society.” Is it perfect (or even that good)? NO. But – it is better than the alternative, which is, in many places, a choice between submission to nutjobbery or societal/familial rejection, possibly including death.

    Oh, and for the record, John Morales: I am not a ‘goddist’ in the sense of a person who believes in a god. I don’t believe in any deity, and I haven’t since I was 10 or so. I grew out of it around the time I grew out of liking Barbie.

  236. says

    Yes, it is not the brave choice, but it is a choice that many make, for a stack of varied reasons. I’d rather see a third option of “accept a ‘lite’ version of a deranged Bronze Age belief system that is semi-applicable to the modern world and allows some wiggle room, and in return get at least grudging respect and acceptance from friends, family and society.” Is it perfect (or even that good)? NO. But – it is better than the alternative, which is, in many places, a choice between submission to nutjobbery or societal/familial rejection, possibly including death.

    In other words you’re in agreement with me you just are limiting the debate to a certain time frame.

  237. says

    Also I think the better 3rd option is to promote the idea that Faith is a horrible way of making real world decisions and that we need a safe secular public space.

  238. Richard Austin says

    Ichthyic,

    I’m leaning heavily towards this:

    http://reviews.cnet.com/tablets/asus-eee-pad-transformer/4505-3126_7-35089447.html?tag=mncol

    with the keyboard doc, it does everything both a tablet AND a reader AND a laptop can do, with a quad core processor in it!

    I’ve got the original Asus Transformer.

    Some background: I bought a Fujitsu Stylistic 5112 years ago. It’s a full Windows Vista slate PC, Wacom pen input (no touch) with an IR keyboard. That damned thing went everywhere with me, mostly because it was awesome for taking notes (Inkseine at the time, but most of that’s been incorporated into OneNote 2010) and great for photo editing (which I do on vacations).

    I haven’t found a new professional-grade slate PC I want; the Asus Eee Slate EP121 comes close, but I’d like an I7 and as much RAM as I can throw at it (again, photo editings; I do HDR, and that shit gets heavy) and everyone’s pretty much “dumbed down” their slate-type offerings to iPad competitors.

    So, I bought the Transformer as an interim: I can use it for some of the stuff I wanted to do but not all, and it’s an interesting toy. Plus, since my next phone is likely to be Android, I wanted the experience of playing with the OS.

    I’m generally satisfied. Obviously I can’t do note-taking like I did before; the on-screen keyboard positions oddly sometimes, and I don’t want to have to carry around a dock, and there’s no real pen input (though you can get a stylus that simulates a finger, it’s not the same). It’s pretty much a “larger phone” for me: I basically use my phone (an older Windows Mobile 6.5) as a hotspot and do my actual surfing and such on the tablet. I think, though, if I can find a full professional slate-type PC (windows 7 and all) that meets my requirements, I’ll probably put the tablet aside for the most part.

    Though, Angry Birds is much more fun on a 10″ screen…

  239. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    *clawless anklehugs* for Alukonis. Best of luck with the therapist. Issues generally look their most intractable from the inside.

    […]offer flowers (click on the background)[…]

    Don’t just click on it; click and hold the button down, click and mouse around a bit while holding the button down. Wheeeee!

    Monty Python stars reuniting for a science fiction comedy.

    And there was much rejoicing.

    walton @298: And the Onion scores again!

  240. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Ing, if that’s what you’re arguing for, then yes, we are in agreement. I am in disagreement with those who say that moderates and progressives working within a religion to make it less whacky are weak, cowards, wasting their time, etc.

    ___
    My laptop (a 2006 MacBook Pro) is limping. I shall probably replace it soon. But I cannot decide with WHAT. A new MBP? An Air? Hmm…

  241. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Incidentally, typing ‘2006 MacBook Pro’ made me realize that my laptop is SIX FUCKING YEARS OLD.
    Dang!

  242. says

    The Utah Transit Authority thinks it has found a way to deny atheist ads on buses and trains.

    Ads on buses and trains are seen by thousands of people a day. But the Utah Transit Authority tried to deny an open-records law request by an atheist group for a copy of all such ads accepted by the agency, arguing that might violate copyright laws.

    But when the State Records Committee heard an appeal by the American Humanist Association, the AHA agreed to an offer by UTA to let it view the ads in its offices instead of providing copies. “It’s not like those ads are secret. People see them on buses every day,” said William Burgess, attorney for the AHA.

    He said his group wants to see the ads because it questions whether UTA violated its own policies when it denied an ad proposed by the Utah Coalition of Reason that would have said, “Don’t believe in God? You’re not alone,” and listed its Web page.

    UTA spokesman Gerry Carpenter said UTA’s policies require that ads pertain to a commercial transaction, unless the message comes from a government agency. He said the ad did not meet that criteria.

    But the AHA said its members have seen ads on UTA buses and trains from churches, so Burgess asked to see all ads accepted by UTA “to see if it has been consistent in its policies, or if it has violated our First Amendment rights.”…

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/53384899-90/accepted-ads-agency-aha.html.csp

  243. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    If we need an attenuated form of religion to protect us from a serious religion epidemic, as a stop-gap until it goes extinct, it’s a compromise I’m willing to accept.
    Naturally, the smallpox religion is not going to see it this way.

  244. Richard Austin says

    Oh, and Re: Nicotine…

    I believe it takes the place of acetylcholine in some receptors, which means it can increase stimulation (and inhibit in others) just like acetylcholine can, but nicotine also depolarizes in muscles and doesn’t get broken down by the same enzymes, so the effect is much longer/pronounced. That might explain the “hulk smash” sensations TLC is talking about: it’s possible he’s getting muscular responses that he might not have had in a while.

    (I only know this – and had to look up the specific spelling of acetylcholine – because of a trainer I used to talk to. So, my info may be slightly off as it’s second-hand, but I think the gist is correct.)

  245. consciousness razor says

    Oh, and for the record, John Morales: I am not a ‘goddist’ in the sense of a person who believes in a god. I don’t believe in any deity, and I haven’t since I was 10 or so. I grew out of it around the time I grew out of liking Barbie.

    What was it supposed to mean when you said this?

    I am a diest (a Quaker, for the record). The kind of faith that I like is the non-evangelical, humanistic variety. When I say “faith,” that’s what I mean. And I don’t see it as inherently bad – or inherently good. It is, as I’ve said, morally neutral. I’d like to think it makes me a better person and drives me to do good stuff. Maybe I’m deluded.

    If you’re no longer a deistic Quaker, with some kind of faith in something, who may be deluded, then I don’t understand why you’d say all of this in the present tense.

  246. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Cicely, progressive religion as a vaccine is an analogy I can totally get behind.

    Richard Austin,
    Nicotine binds to the nicotinic receptors in the CNS, which are a subcategory of the acetylcholine receptor family. It causes increased dopamine release. It can also bind, more weakly, to receptors in the PNS, stimulating epinephrine release. At high concentrations, this can cause muscle spasms. Withdrawal could cause problems as well, if a chemical dependency has developed.

  247. says

    When I say “faith,” that’s what I mean. And I don’t see it as inherently bad – or inherently good. It is, as I’ve said, morally neutral. I’d like to think it makes me a better person and drives me to do good stuff. Maybe I’m deluded.

    Holy crap, I can’t believed I missed this.

    That is a harm of faith, right there. Right there. You’re contributing your efforts at improvement and morality to an unverifiable external source. It is inherently skewing self assessment.

    Stealing credit is wrong

  248. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    conciousness razor, I am a practicing Quaker. I do not believe in any god. These two statements are not contradictory. I am a humanist and despise evangelical everything. If I have faith in anything, it is in the rational mind and in other people. *shrug*

    For the record, in the above, I am not an atypical Quaker. But then, we’re pretty unusual, religiously speaking.

  249. walton says

    I am in disagreement with those who say that moderates and progressives working within a religion to make it less whacky are weak, cowards, wasting their time, etc.

    Me too. Indeed, that’s the proposition with which I was primarily disagreeing yesterday. I have a lot of admiration for people like Gene Robinson, Desmond Tutu, the Metropolitan Community Church, and others working for racial equality, gender equality and LGBT equality within a religious context. I’d largely endorse what Ed Brayton says here.

  250. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @Ing
    What you’re referring to is what Quakers call the “Inner Light,” which is analogous to the soul / divine spark.
    Many Quakers (myself included) interpret this doctrine as “Inner Light” = the mind, sentience. Make of that what you will. As I see it, my appreciation for my own mind drives me to recognize that in others and work for equality, social justice, peace, etc.

  251. consciousness razor says

    I am a practicing Quaker. I do not believe in any god. These two statements are not contradictory.

    Okay, then I wouldn’t call you a deist, just a Quaker and an atheist.

    By the way, these two statements don’t make much sense together:

    It is, as I’ve said, morally neutral. I’d like to think it makes me a better person and drives me to do good stuff.

    Does faith also make you a worse person and drive you to do bad stuff? How else could it be morally neutral?

  252. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    We are Ing @ #313

    Also I think the better 3rd option is to promote the idea that Faith is a horrible way of making real world decisions and that we need a safe secular public space.

    This is my point. I really think that faith is dangerous and I can’t support the kind of lying that people like Irshad Manji engage in. I also don’t think she’s really helping at all. I don’t think she’s helping queers living under Islamic oppression by advocating for a moderate Islam. We might disagree there, but you, at least, realise the inherent harm in faith.

  253. Richard Austin says

    Esteleth, PhD:

    Nicotine binds to the nicotinic receptors in the CNS, which are a subcategory of the acetylcholine receptor family. It causes increased dopamine release. It can also bind, more weakly, to receptors in the PNS, stimulating epinephrine release. At high concentrations, this can cause muscle spasms. Withdrawal could cause problems as well, if a chemical dependency has developed.

    Yay for science!

    (I thought at prolongued high concentrations – e.g., long-term heavy smoking habit – the spasms stop and the muscle just stops reacting as easily? But I could be wrong (obviously).)

  254. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @consciousness razor,

    Okay, then I wouldn’t call you a deist, just a Quaker and an atheist.

    Fair enough. *shrug* I don’t usually call myself an atheist, mostly because (1) I guess I do believe in something, just not anything that could be categorized as “god,” and (2) I’ve been told more than once by self-described atheists that I’m doing in wrong if I call myself one. Whatever.

    Does faith also make you a worse person and drive you to do bad stuff? How else could it be morally neutral?

    In me? Probably. I’d like to think I can keep a lid on that by appealing to my rational side as much as possible. Faith can, and does, absolutely make some people worse and drive them to do bad stuff. It probably does in me as well.

    @Thomathy,
    I guess I see a ‘lite’ Islam that says, “Well, it’s icky, but we’re not going to kill you over it” as being more beneficial for queers than an Islam that says, “Die, faggot!” Of course, a secular society that doesn’t give a crap and offers equal rights is the ideal. I see the lite version as being more achievable sooner and as a stepping stone to the ideal.

  255. Dhorvath, OM says

    Alukonis,
    I am new at this ankle hug thing, but no talons so I think I could figure it out correctly.

    You are aware of how you work and react, that alone is more than many can claim. Good luck with your search for a professional wall to bounce your problems off of and take care of yourself in the meantime.

  256. consciousness razor says

    I don’t usually call myself an atheist, mostly because (1) I guess I do believe in something, just not anything that could be categorized as “god,”

    I’m not a nihilist. I also believe in things which couldn’t be categorized as a god. Should we get more specific about what you mean by “something”?

    (2) I’ve been told more than once by self-described atheists that I’m doing in wrong if I call myself one. Whatever.

    The only way to do atheism wrong is to believe in a god. I’m not sure what they may have been talking about, but one can be a practicing religionist of whatever stripe and also not believe in a god.

    Faith can, and does, absolutely make some people worse and drive them to do bad stuff. It probably does in me as well.

    So you don’t mean “neutrality” in the sense that it has no morally relevant effects, but that it can have good and bad effects. That’s why I wouldn’t call it neutral.

    If it were like a neutron, it’d have no net charge, not a positive and a negative charge. Maybe we could break it up into its constituent faith-quarks and explain how those add to zero. But it’s apparently good whenever it’s most convenient for you and bad when it’s bad for you. It is whatever it is, and we should probably stop thinking about it.

  257. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    @ Esteleth:

    I maintain that moderates, the moderates that don’t speak out especially, are seriously problematic and hinder progress. Irshad Manji speaks out, and I commend her for advocating change to a brutally violent religion, but I do not like the lie and I do not like her attempts at fitting a queer image into Islam. I hate that. I hate it when Christians or anything other religious people do it. They can act however they want and they can lie all they want about what Islam or whatever religion it is really is or what it really should be, but the bloody book is right there and it makes no qualms. The fundamentalits, the extremists, all the conservative views don’t just disappear because there’s a moderate version, and, as evidenced, the moderates do not temper the not-moderates. Secularism does, the absence of faith and the intolerance for anti-secularism does. We can’t change their minds and we can’t take away their voice, but as the first world has largely done, we can take away their power, at least some of it, and progress.

    The history of thought in these religions is bare for all to see and the present thought in these religions gives the lie to the moderate positions, even those of the outspoken. They defend faith, they defend faith-based thinking and they defend their religion. And these defences provide justification for the conservative, violent forms of these religions. These religions cannot be redeemed and they should not be redeemed. I do not see moderate Islam as a step toward a secularised Islam, I see it as a retreat from progress, an admittance that the fight can’t really be won, as kowtowing to belief in belief, to faith. I see it providing cover for other varieties of faith. No, it must all be denounced as the utterly incorrect, violent and disgustingly inhumane garbage that it is.

    This is my problem with people like Irshad Manji; she means well, but she’s horribly mistaken and the end result she seeks is not the end result she’ll see. One need only look at the US.

  258. consciousness razor says

    she means well, but she’s horribly mistaken and the end result she seeks is not the end result she’ll see.

    Which is just the sort of thing you’d expect from beliefs which aren’t based on reliable evidence.

    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” –Philip K. Dick

  259. David Marjanović says

    …erm.

    I hope what I wrote last didn’t come out wrong.

    Neither can I Internet-diagnose aromanticity, nor do I consider it an illness!!!

  260. says

    What you’re referring to is what Quakers call the “Inner Light,” which is analogous to the soul / divine spark.
    Many Quakers (myself included) interpret this doctrine as “Inner Light” = the mind, sentience. Make of that what you will. As I see it, my appreciation for my own mind drives me to recognize that in others and work for equality, social justice, peace, etc.

    thank you. I went to the local Society of Friends at Uni in my lower class years but couldn’t remember the exact terminology.

    The Quakers certainly do promote equality on the whole and justify it with their beliefs…the problem is that they are equivalent beliefs to those that do serious harm. I worry about that and that that reinforces the cultural acceptance of the idea of a soul, which I believe is actually very very harmful (specifically dualism and the soul together). I’ve cited in the past the doctrinal debates over wehther slaves had souls or are just upright animals and of course Scalia’s “let god sort them out” mentality as examples.

  261. Predator Handshake says

    Esteleth @311: my cells are contaminated too. I just plated them yesterday; they wouldn’t even do me the courtesy of waiting until this afternoon so I could go on thinking everything is fine over the weekend!

  262. says

    Yeesh, that Froborr person is a MAJOR ASSHOLE and moron. He has written a post stating his opinion with the intent of persuading others of the rightness of his position; shall I equate that to “you do not have a right to cure people by force unless they are demonstrably an immediate danger to themselves or others”, as he has done with Greta’s post?

    What New Atheist has said that we should “cure believers by force”, huh?

  263. janine says

    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” –Philip K. Dick

    And yet he thought something like VALIS was real and that he was hit be an intelligent beam of pink light.

    Love his novels but Dick was a highly disturbed person. But he was perceptive enough to know it.

  264. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    I got about a third of the way through that Slacktivist post and then quit. Jebus, WTF was that shit?

    @Predator Handshake,
    I’m especially pissed because (1) my cultures had gentamicin in them, which means that whatever shit is in there is gentamicin-resistent and (2) these are primary cultures, meaning I extracted them from a tissue source. Which means I have to go back to the fucking tissue source.

    Dammit.

    @conciousness razor,
    I mean “morally neutral” in the inherent sense. Whether or not it is good or bad depends on the person, the faith, and how the person is using the faith. As an inherent thing, faith is neutral. Maybe I’m being pedantic and should instead say that faith is zwitterionic neutral.

    @Thomathy,
    Is your argument more with the loudmouthed progressive reformers or with the quiet, acquiescent moderates? They really aren’t the same thing, of course. I see your point – the point comes when the fact that the text contains appalling nonsense and this cannot be explained away. That said, the reforming progressives do have an important role in establishing that the text can be questioned and interpreted in more than one hardline way. Once that is established, it’s a lot easier to reject (i.e. it’s easier to reject something that has been established as fallible than something that hasn’t). So, even if we agree that the ideal is secularism, I argue that the progressive reform is an important intermediary.

    @Ing,
    Not going to disagree with you over the historical abuses of the “soul” argument. I’ve read some of those documents (like, “Native Americans don’t have souls, so it’s totally cool that we’re stealing their land and killing them!” “Africans don’t have souls, so it’s totally cool that we’re enslaving them!” “Women don’t have souls, so it’s totally cool that we’re subjugating them!”) and they make me sick. I’m also not going to argue that Quakers haven’t been guilty of that shit at times. It is an inherently dangerous argument. If “all people are equal” is not coupled with “people are people and thus equal, no matter what sex/race/orientation/whatever they are,” things can get shitty fast – and has, historically.

  265. says

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/01/26/411865/new-hampshire-republicans-propose-bills-that-prevent-police-from-protecting-domestic-abuse-victims/?mobile=nc

    Ok. I can usually empathize enough to see where people are coming from.

    But I can’t figure out even the plausible bullshit reason for this.

    I got about a third of the way through that Slacktivist post and then quit. Jebus, WTF was that shit?

    Again this is an EXTREMELY liberal site. I hope this helps you understand why myself and others are extremely cynical of the moderate and liberal religions (especially Christianity) because a lot of them do seem to flip with a snap of the fingers into exactly the same sort of ravenous foaming at mouth conservative bigot given the right cue.

    ((yes the author was an “atheist”, but the blog owner is Christian and felt this was acceptable as did the readership))

    Often it seems liberal Christianity means they’ve just narrowed down the out group to “Atheist”. Despite the claims to the contrary, I did not find the atmosphere welcoming.

  266. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Froborr, upon self-examination discovers that his opinion might persuade someone of something, decides to stop writing.

    Does he really want to see the level of evidence required to show that faith is harmful? Does he even understand what is meant when that’s said?

    What dishonest drivel. The sheer lack of self-awareness is staggering.

  267. Pteryxx says

    Off topic – With all these new bloggers and their fancy banners coming in, can I pleeeeeze put in a request that PZ put a different Pharyngula banner up? Say, the black-and-purple tentacle-beard one? That was always my favorite. The plain old crocoduck’s starting to look a bit embarrassing. (To us, not the ID’ers.)

  268. consciousness razor says

    I mean “morally neutral” in the inherent sense. Whether or not it is good or bad depends on the person, the faith, and how the person is using the faith. As an inherent thing, faith is neutral. Maybe I’m being pedantic and should instead say that faith is zwitterionic neutral.

    How do you know faith has no inherent moral significance?

    That said, the reforming progressives do have an important role in establishing that the text can be questioned and interpreted in more than one hardline way. Once that is established, it’s a lot easier to reject (i.e. it’s easier to reject something that has been established as fallible than something that hasn’t).

    Nothing whatsoever is “established” by some article of faith, progressive or not. Merely believing it’s fallible doesn’t make it fallible or easier to reject.

    What you’re describing is a kook fight. The progressives may say there could be an infinite number of angels on the head of a pin, while the conservatives insist it is reserved only for a select few. But no one should give a shit what the answer is supposed to be. The progressives are not only wasting time that would be better spent on reality, but also dignifying the fundie position by pretending it’s in any way relevant.

    Again this is an EXTREMELY liberal site. I hope this helps you understand why myself and others are extremely cynical of the moderate and liberal religions (especially Christianity) because a lot of them do seem to flip with a snap of the fingers into exactly the same sort of ravenous foaming at mouth conservative bigot given the right cue.

    Well… at least the have faith. *vomit*

  269. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Esteleth, you can read, so I’m not going to answer that question of yours. It’s quite obvious with whom and with what my problem is.

    I argue that the progressive reform is an important intermediary.

    And I argue that it is an impediment to secularism. More accurately, I suppose, I should say that it is an impediment now, and if it weren’t it’s not even a necessary step. I refuse to segregate the Muslim world from the rest of the world, Western or otherwise. There is an established tradition of free thought in the world already, painfully fought for throughout the last few centuries. I expect Muslims to join in it, not to be let by the hand while their religion matures into secular Judaism* (something that is not at all obviously happening presently).

    I’ll not wait those centuries. Muslims exist in this world and it is to this world that I expect them and their beliefs to adapt. I do not believe that progressive reform is a necessary, important, or good intermediary.

    *I’ll note that secular Judaism was a long time in coming, and it exists because of the tradition of reinterpreting Jewish texts over the centuries, combined with Englightenment thinking in Germany and that it’s that very tradition that allowed Christian philosophers and nominally Christian ‘scientists’ even before the reformation, to question the Bible over the centuries. I appreciate these facts of history, but the world is global now and Muslims participate in it.

  270. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @conciousness razor,

    Merely believing it’s fallible doesn’t make it fallible or easier to reject.

    Um, yes it does. If something is infallible, it cannot be questioned (but must be accepted at face value), and it is much harder to examine rationally. If it is accepted as fallible, then it can be questioned, interpreted, and – eventually – rejected because it doesn’t fit. Fallibility is required for rejection.

    @Thomathy,
    Secularism is the goal. I’m afraid, however, that when people are stuck between blind submission to Bronze Age nuttiness and outright rejection, then many – not all, but many – will choose the former. This is (1) a fact (one that I haven’t seen you refute) and (2) an impediment to secularism. Because religion is bound up in culture (and culture is bound up in religion), it is easy for the godbotherers to say, “The secularists are attacking our culture, they’re racist,” when outsiders show up and say, “You must become secular.” This happens. It is a terrible, terrible thing (it happens to people working for women’s rights, for queer rights all the damn time). Demanding that they transform themselves overnight is not going to accomplish the goal of producing a secular, progressive Muslim society. It is not. It will, however, accomplish very neatly the goal of the godbotherers in making the cautious but progressive-leaning Muslim (who might be persuaded to adopt a more progressive life and viewpoint) into joining with the godbotherers against the foreign them who think that they know better.

  271. KG says

    No, I’m not arguing for it. If that’s how you understand it, you are confusing “faith” (what one believes for oneself) and “religion” (an organised set of dogma, rules and institutions that pretend to guide and/or mould humanity). – Irene Delse

    I’m amused. Daniel Fincke claims:
    Faith – Bad
    Religion – Good
    And now we have Irene Delse claiming:
    Religion – Bad
    Faith – Neutral

    It’s all complete tosh. Some of it is less harmful than the rest, and in particular it’s better to have nice liberal religionists and faithheads than nasty persecutory ones, but it’s all complete tosh.

  272. KG says

    I’ve had about up to here with your persistent mischaracterization of Butterflies and Wheels as a den of slavering, right-wing, BNP bigots. – Josh, Official Spokesgay

    Not BNP bigots, but bigot enablers, with Ophelia herself prominent among them. She’s not content with arguing that “Islamophobia” is a problematic term (which it is), she denies that the phenomenon it points to – a poisonous movement of specifically anti-Muslim bigotry – even exists. Which is utter crap.

  273. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    So I got an email from Zappos saying that they’d been hacked and that I should change my password. I did, then promptly spend too much time browsing their catalog. Found these (yes, those do in fact fit me).

    WANT.

  274. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    That’s mind-boggling, janine. I’m not going to demand that all queer people have the same politics, but WTF.

  275. says

    That’s mind-boggling, janine. I’m not going to demand that all queer people have the same politics, but WTF.

    When it comes to gay rights, they should have the same politics…otherwise they’re selling out others to be the house slave.

  276. KG says

    I guess I do believe in something, just not anything that could be categorized as “god,” – Esteleth

    Ah – you’re an I-suppose-I-think-there-must-be-some-sort-of-somethingist :-p

    You should move to the UK if you ever want to experience being part of a majority.

  277. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @ Ing,
    I agree that queer people should support politicians who support queer rights, obviously. But while I’ll disagree with those politics, a queer person should be allowed to, say, support a candidate whose in favor of lower taxes instead of an improve social safety net, all else being equal (and of course, I realize that very rarely is all else equal).

  278. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Partially threadrupt, sorry.

    The back gate was left unlatched last night and my dog got out. It wasn’t as bad as it could be (black dog in a network of largely unlit back alleys with stupid-driver neighbors) but she has hip dysplasia and by running, she re-injured her hip as badly as the original, triggering injury 3 or 4 years ago. I had been managing her hip and her activity with the utmost care because I know a hip replacement for her is not in the cards, and I had to make that hip last as many years as I could.

    So frankly I’m really quite terrified right now, especially since she doesn’t seem to be responding much to aspirin, massage and a heat pad (although she’s conked out on the living room rug with the heat pad draped over her hip, so it must feel good and that’s something).

    :( :( :(

  279. Pteryxx says

    That’s mind-boggling, janine. I’m not going to demand that all queer people have the same politics, but WTF.

    I read that, and hear in my head Ginger (from Chicken Run):

    “What part of they kill us did you not understand?”

  280. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Esteleth, you’re right of course. And I’m not demanding that they transform overnight. I’m just demanding that they transform. I want both a secular world and a world free from magical thinking. The latter may not ever be possible, but I don’t see how encouraging the moderates gets that goal any closer. I haven’t seen yet that moderates are any more likely to stop magical thinking and that’s exactly my problem. If they can have magical thinking, the fundamentalists can have it to.

    I haven’t seen you refute that and I don’t expect that you will. It’s patently obvious, of course, that faith justifies faith.

    I believe we differ only on what we believe the power of the moderates to temper fundamentalism and to help to bring about a more secular Islam is. I’d begrudging be wrong (although still very unhappy with the means to the end) about the effectiveness of moderate Muslims, but I don’t think I am or will be. Islam, as a religion, isn’t as amenable to being tempered toward secularism as Christianity, for instance. It does not have the same history; it emerged into a world culture already made global just this last century. There exist Islamic theocracies. Islam is, in some ways, as much a system of governance, of law and a culture as it is a religion.

    Perhaps the problem is both larger in scope and more complex than either of us fully appreciates. Perhaps you’re right about the moderates; I’m still unconvinced.

  281. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Now to be less threadrupt.

    Alukonis:

    David M: Those flowers are delightful! Thank you :)

    Giliell: Shit My Kids Ruined was what convinced me my kids are not, in fact, the most destructive little larvae on the planet. (Also, my son did not cut himself with scissors when he was little; he cut me.)

    Pteryxx: I miss the old rotating banner with all the different awesome images. No one else seems to have *that*. (Of course maybe that’s because FTB doesn’t support it. I have no idea.)

  282. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Blargh! I meant to say, Alukonis, I hope you find therapy helpful. It seems to me that you don’t want to hurt anyone and you’re willing to face some difficult things to prevent it, which is always a great big tick in the “fundamentally decent person” column. I hope you let us know how it goes.

  283. KG says

    That said, the reforming progressives do have an important role in establishing that the text can be questioned and interpreted in more than one hardline way. Once that is established, it’s a lot easier to reject (i.e. it’s easier to reject something that has been established as fallible than something that hasn’t). So, even if we agree that the ideal is secularism, I argue that the progressive reform is an important intermediary. – Esteleth

    Historically, that does seem to be the way it worked in European Christianity. The USA seems to be a different case – although how different depends on whether the current plunge of one of the two main parties into Dominionist insanity lasts, or turns out to be the last stand of the fundies. As for Islam, it’s hard to say – there are complex cross-currents both in majority-Muslim countries (obvious enough in the “Arab Spring” but not only there), and in minority Muslim populations in Europe. That’s an important reason (not the only one) I agree with Walton that it’s very important to separate trenchant criticism of Islam from anti-Muslim bigotry, and that many in the atheist movement who are not themselves bigots are insufficiently careful to dissociate themselves from the latter. Particularly when they mouth off about events in countries they know very little about.

  284. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @Thomathy,
    I’m certain that the problem is far larger and complex than either of us fully appreciates. If I’m certain of anything, it is that.

    I think I – cautiously – disagree with you in your assessment of Islam’s ability to modernize. I think it is there. The history and current status of Islam are roadblocks, yes. For what it is worth, Christianity is also as much a system of governance, law and culture as Islam or any other religion is. I mean, I’m not certain, but I’m guessing that you’re American or from (probably Western) Europe. Although you’re an atheist and live in a society that is at least somewhat secular, you are still exposed to regularly and affected by Christianity. Many of the legal concepts of the US and Europe came out of Christian jurisprudence (including, for example, the Westphalian concept of a nation – something that al-Qaida has explicitly said they disagree with).

    Basically, Islam has not experienced what happened to Christianity in the 1700s – the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment is what made possible most of the secularization, the separation of church and state, etc etc etc that, eventually, gave rise to the modern, ostensibly-Christian-but-secular Western society. The Enlightenment is when Christianity decided that reason was neat and maybe should take a front seat to religion, that human rights are important, that secularism is a valuable concept, that religious liberty is a good thing, etc. The Enlightenment was also a process, and many people kicked and screamed over it. Not everything that came out of it was good, but it had to happen.

    In my mind, the moderates and reformers within Islam are maybe the first wave of an Islamic Enlightenment. Maybe. Hopefully. They may be moving at a pace we find exasperating, and taking paths we find silly, but it is a process that MUST happen.

  285. consciousness razor says

    Merely believing it’s fallible doesn’t make it fallible or easier to reject.

    Um, yes it does.

    No it doesn’t. “I believe X is fallible” doesn’t entail “X is fallible.”

    If you have evidence that X is capable of being wrong, then it’s that evidence which suggests X is capable of being wrong. If you only have faith it in (belief without evidence), what you have is useless.

  286. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    @conciousness razor,
    Believing something is fallible does not make it fallible.
    Believing something is fallible does make it easier to believe it wrong and thus worthy of rejection.

  287. janine says

    Basically, Islam has not experienced what happened to Christianity in the 1700s – the Enlightenment.

    Stop it! Stop it now!

    This Enlightenment was partially started by fragments of Greek and Roman knowledge that was preserved by mostly Islamic cultures. They had exposure to this. And many people from muslim dominated cultures have had education based on Enlightenment principles.

    The answer has to be found elsewhere.

  288. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Janine,
    That is where the Enlightenment came from, yes. The results of the Enlightenment were acceptance of secularism, human rights, etc.

  289. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Why do you think that Joe calls them kapos?

    Janine, I think it’s perfectly appropriate. Yes, it is inflammatory, and rightly so. No, I don’t think it’s a degradation or diminution of the original use of the work Kapo.

  290. KG says

    Expanding a bit on my #371, a minority that feels itself under threat – particularly if it is readily identifiable by ethnicity as most European Muslim minorities are – is likely to circle the wagons and retreat into fundamentalism. But some of the things that make some Muslim minorities or some of their members feel threatened – like enforcing laws against FGM and forced marriage, and standing up for freedom of expression – must nevertheless be done. The bigots’ approach is to say “Send them all back where they came from”. But many atheists who are not bigots are nonetheless refusing to acknowledge that specifically anti-Muslim rhetoric and organisations (which latter sometimes include members of other ethnic minority groups) are, quite justifiably, seen by Muslims as a real and specific threat. I’ll link again to the study I found a few days ago, for anyone who wants to know about this specifically anti-Muslim far right in Britain – similar groups exist in many European countries and indeed in the USA, and IIRC in Canada and Australia. This is dangerous both because these groups are themselves highly unpleasant, authoritarian, and infiltrated by fascists, and because it increases the fear within Muslim minorities, strengthening their extremists and weakening the secularising currents that undoubtedly exist (to believe otherwise is to attribute the same sort of magical power to Islam that the Islamists do).

  291. KG says

    janine@376,

    Indeed so. One of the factors is certainly the experience of being on the wrong end of European colonialism.

  292. janine says

    Esteleth, I think that a religion that was codified by a warlord and adopted by peoples who were constantly at war and in recent centuries were subjected by foreigners of a different faith makes that kind of change difficult.

  293. consciousness razor says

    Believing something is fallible does make it easier to believe it wrong and thus worthy of rejection.

    Sure, okay, it’s “easier to believe,” if you just don’t give a fuck whether your beliefs are true.

    Around in circles we go. It’s very tiresome. CR out.

  294. janine says

    KG, as it stands, I do not see any compelling reason why Iraqis or Iranian should have any love for England or the US in light of the actions of both nations in the aftermath of WW I.

  295. says

    David:

    ?

    When Esme & Rubin wake up, Chas runs upstairs and lies down on top of the fresh salad on the salad plate to prevent the young ones from getting any. Just Chas being greedy and crotchety – he is two years old now and pulling all the “I’m old, I can do what I want!” stunts he can manage.

  296. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Totally agreed, Janine.
    That is actually much of the problem with people from outside insisting that Muslim countries do something – it is very, very easy for the outsider country (especially if it is the US or European) to fall into the “colonial master” role.

  297. Nutmeg says

    @kristinc

    So sorry about your dog. It’s so hard to see them hurting. How old is she?

    Is there any chance of using medication beyond aspirin? I know it’s expensive, but we swore by meloxicam (trade name Metacam or Deramaxx) for our older Golden Retriever with chronic arthritis issues. She’s gone now, but our younger dog has bilateral elbow dysplasia, corrected somewhat with surgery. We give her Metacam when she’s played too hard.

    In the short term, Tr*madol was very effective for heavy-duty pain control when Willow was in her last weeks. You might be able to get a few days’ worth from your vet without breaking the bank, to get your dog through the worst of the recovery.

    We’ve also found food and pats effective. :) Goldens and labs are such food- and people-oriented dogs.

    Hope your dog is feeling better soon.

  298. walton says

    KG, as it stands, I do not see any compelling reason why Iraqis or Iranian should have any love for England or the US in light of the actions of both nations in the aftermath of WW I.

    Sadly, that’s very true. (Which makes the tide of bigotry in modern Britain against Muslim immigrants all the more depressing.)

  299. KG says

    janine@384,

    No – but that’s not particularly relevant to Muslim minorities in Europe, as those countries have not been major sources of immigration.

    I think that a religion that was codified by a warlord and adopted by peoples who were constantly at war and in recent centuries were subjected by foreigners of a different faith makes that kind of change difficult.

    I think history shows that at least the first part of this is wrong. There was a very strong rationalist streak in early Islam, known by western scholars as Muʾtazilism, which laid great stress on the power of human reason, was prominent in early Arabic science* and interpreted much of the Quran metaphorically. Unfotunately, this flourished only as long as it had the support of the Abbasid caliphs – it did not become associated, as Enlightenment rationalism did (but, we should note, by no means immediately), with any idea that the ruler should not have power to command their subjects’ beliefs. Many of the early reactions to European colonialism were also rationalistic in tone, seeking to imitate features of European societies including aspects of secularism; Islamic fundamentalism is mostly fairly recent (not entirely – the Wahhabis go back to the 18th century, but Wahhabism arose in Arabia, in areas never colonised by Europeans).

    *Science carried on in the medium of Arabic – many of those involved were not Arabs, and quite a few were non-Muslims.

  300. KG says

    kristinc,
    Pats for your poor dog – and sympathy for you too, it’s hard to see a pet suffering. Our dog is 12 now, still in pretty good shape apart from a bit of arthritis and occasional “funny turns” – possibly epileptic in nature, but they’re so infrequent we declined medication for them. For the arthritis she was getting a daily glucosamine tablet (which I’ve read probably isn’t really effective but Mrs. KG thought it helped), but the vet recently switched her to capsules, which also include an anti-inflammatory. She spits these out if given on their own (she’d usually eat the tablet, if thrown after one biscuit and before another), so she gets one coated in peanut butter, which she now considers an expected treat following the morning walk.

  301. says

    @KG

    That reminds me of someone I knew who was in charge of a group/institution. He didn’t like talking to women and would ignore them unless forced and people made excuses for him that he was an Afghanie and thus his culture wasn’t used to dealing with women in a professional setting.

    The problem was that by his age and according to when he lived in Afghan he lived before the Taliban…So the cultural excuse was grade A bullshit.

  302. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Nutmeg, thanks, she’s either 6 or 7 (the age her former family told us and the age their vet had in the records don’t match up). I’ve had her about 5 years. She’s mostly Lab.

    I’ve been managing her hip based on the advice my vet gave several years ago. It’s probably time to talk to him about whether the plans should change, even if she hadn’t injured herself. Most days up till now she’d seemed to be pain free or only very slightly stiff and it worked well handling it with massage and careful exercise.

    She loves the massage and lots of snuggling so I”m babying the everloving crap out of her right now.

  303. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Hee hee, KG, Zoe is so big (and compliant) that I can pretty much just stick my hand down her throat with the pills. But then I end up with my hand covered in dog-mouth slime, so usually I find a spoonful of mashed potatoes or something to poke them into and sucker her with.

    She gets glucosamine too, because it can’t hurt.

  304. Nutmeg says

    kristinc: You can’t go wrong with fussing over a dog. Seven seems to be the age when many large breeds start to need more medical attention, but they’re worth it. They have lots of personality, and they’ve got life all figured out.

    I have a serious soft spot for old dogs with attitude.

  305. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Trigger warning:

    There’s homemade split pea soup just starting on the stove.

  306. says

    Kristinc, sorry to hear Zoe is having trouble. I’ll probably have to start doing more serious pain management with my coyote mix, Doll. Several years ago, she ended up with a dislocated hip, which still pains her on occasion. Usually, an aspirin or two takes care of the problem, but she’ll be 10 years old this October, and she’s getting a bit creaky and cranky all over the place. Kind of like me. :D

  307. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Argh argh argh.
    Came home from work to discover that Morgan had decided that my packet of birth control pills was a toy. Cue 20 minutes of frantically attempting to determine if she ate any of them. Conclusion: she ate the spacer pill. Called the vet, was told not to worry, but she may be extra hyper for awhile.

    Great. Sugar-high in a cat.

  308. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    She’s really a wonderful dog. I bit off more than I could chew with her. For many reasons the rational thing to do would have been to pick a smaller dog (she’s big even for a lab). And given that originally I thought she was going to do some service dog tasks for me, including possibly in public, the rational thing would have been to pick a dog that was less clingy, more confident, and less traumatized by changing households.

    But I fell for her the minute I saw her big beautiful face looking out the window at her previous family’s house, and she has been nothing but sweet and wonderful and giving, and she is dog-of-my-heart.

  309. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Josh,
    I’ll be at your place in like 3 hours, okay? XD

  310. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    Josh, she ate the spacer pill.
    No hormones. Just a placeholder so that the habit of taking a pill daily is kept.

    ‘Course, she’s been spayed. If she got pregnant, that’d be pretty damn impressive.

  311. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Come on, Audley – this pea soup gonna be de-lish!

    Oh, Esteleth, well, I tried. Actually I’m glad she didn’t eat the meds, obviously, but there is something perversely funny about the thought.

  312. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Mmmm.. . smell that smoked ham hock softening up and falling apart in the chicken stock. . .

    OK, so I have one large red potato. Should I dice it up for the pea soup? I’m kind of a pea soup purist. . I like it with carrots/celery/onion and that’s about it for veggies. But this damned potato just doesn’t have any other use.

  313. Esteleth, Ph.D. of Mischief, Mayhem and Hilarity says

    It’s alright Josh, I laughed.
    I suppose I’m glad she didn’t eat my other meds. Gonna guess that thyroid hormone isn’t great for her.

  314. says

    Esteleth:

    I suppose I’m glad she didn’t eat my other meds.

    You don’t know “oh shit, where’s my pill” panic until you put your meds out, go to get a glass of water and come back in just in time to see a gleeful rat running off with something that will kill them*.

    I’ve had to completely re-adjust where I keep my meds, how I take them, etc.

    *I’ve used this particular med to put rats down when it’s time, not something you want to see them run off with.

  315. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Josh, one large red potato *is* just about enough for one large bowl of creamy potato soup …

  316. Ichthyic says

    *blink* Seriously? I’m scared now. This laptop is something like 4 or 5 years old and has never had so much as a Blue Screen of Death!

    yup. Manufacturing quality on the average laptop hardrive has gone way down in the last 10 years.

    30% fail rates out of the box are common, and 50% fail rates at 2 years is average these days.

    now, you CAN do what I did and monitor what the actual drive fail rates are, and then pay the extra amount for drives with the best no-fail rates, and typically that buys me another year.

    This all said, I’m someone who really utilizes apps that thrash computers to death anyway (very large databases, statistical apps, and of course, the latest games *ahem*). So my comp is typically woring at 50% CPU/hardware usage 90% of the time.

    I have friends that only use their laptops for web and email who still have the same one they had 6 years ago, and haven’t had a problem yet.

    still, I’m not kidding about HD fail rates, and after 2 years, you really should be thinking seriously about mirroring your stuff up on a backup drive (I like to use raid 0 external arrays) and considering a replacement HD for your laptop. It takes way less time to recover from a recent mirror of your drive stored on a cheap external (and they are cheap these days), than it does to start over again from scratch if your HD actually dies and all you have is just data backups.

    typically, if you do what I do and update the mirror backup once a month or so, and keep regular backups of just new data otherwise, then all you have to do is boot with a floppy or CD that allows you to access the mirror and restore it to a new HD, and you’re back up and running in an hour or two.

    otherwise, these days rebuilding your entire system and restoring all your programs and data can literally take days.

    Especially if you are using an older OS like Vista, or even XP.

    remember, it’s not just reinstalling Vista, it’s having to download all the service packs again, and all the updates again, for everything. And then reinstalling all your programs again, and updating THEM again, and THEN getting all your files back on there….

    got you scared yet?

    good.

    ;)

  317. janine says

    Epstein will not be able to come to class to day because Epstein just died.

    Signed,
    Epstein’s Mother

  318. SallyStrange (Bigger on the Inside), Spawn of Cthulhu says

    DOOO EET AUDLEY!

    Cuz you know, then you can help me move. ;)

  319. changeable moniker says

    Oh, dear.

    OccupyLSX occupy a disused bank. It’s unclear where the padlock on the door went:

    http://occupylsx.org/?p=3313

    Or is it?

    Weekly Budget -> Direct Action -> £137 -> “Bolt Cutter”.

    Oops.

    C’mon Occupy, you can do better than this. ;)

    (For the curious, it’s a disused Korean restaurant that used to be–back in the 80s-90s–a high-street bank. It’s also directly across the road from the City of London Police HQ. Not a smart choice of target.)

  320. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    I’m going to start to take note of the casual omission of certain Commonwealth countries, as well as certain Asian countries when people are ostensibly talking about the first world and mention only the US and Western Europe.

    For what it’s worth, Esteleth, I’m Canadian and no, I’m not exposed to regularly nor affected by Christianity very much in my day-to-day life at all. In fact, most of my interactions with and discussions about, as well as my experience with religion take place and happen online. There are, of course, notable exceptions, but I’m not confronted with religion or by religious people much at all IRL.

    As to the point you make about Muslims, it reads as thought you completely failed to parse what I wrote. I’m saying exactly that I do not expect Muslims to go through the centuries of evolution that Christianity did, or for that matter to attain the level of casual unimportance as religious thought in China, Japan or Korea and other places that took centuries as well. As I’ve said, Islam exists in this world it is unacceptable to wait for Muslim theocracies to play catch-up with the ‘West’. Certainly the citizens of these theocracies seem to feel that way, but I don’t get the impression that they also want to leave their particular versions of Islam behind. That’s a problem. It another reason why I don’t believe moderate Islam is an answer.

  321. Irene Delse says

    @ KG:

    There was a very strong rationalist streak in early Islam, known by western scholars as Muʾtazilism, which laid great stress on the power of human reason, was prominent in early Arabic science* and interpreted much of the Quran metaphorically. Unfotunately, this flourished only as long as it had the support of the Abbasid caliphs – it did not become associated, as Enlightenment rationalism did (but, we should note, by no means immediately), with any idea that the ruler should not have power to command their subjects’ beliefs.

    Good point. This was “Golden Age” of Arabo-Islamic science and philosophy, the age of Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and Ibn Sina (Avicenna). Ironically, many Christian scholars like Aquinas used a lot of their translations of Greek sources to elaborate their own elaborate theology! But the Golden Age faded with the political decline of the Abassid dynasty, with the Spanish Reconquista in the West, and also with the increased influence of Muslim theologians hostile to the application of philosophical inquiry to metaphysical matters, in order to protect their conception of religion.

    Many of the early reactions to European colonialism were also rationalistic in tone, seeking to imitate features of European societies including aspects of secularism; Islamic fundamentalism is mostly fairly recent (not entirely – the Wahhabis go back to the 18th century, but Wahhabism arose in Arabia, in areas never colonised by Europeans).

    An example of these early reactions: Muhammad Ali of Egypt, the “father of modern Egypt”, who in the first half of the 19th Century introduced many modern reforms to his country, first in the army, then in economic, technical and cultural areas. In Arabia, Wahhabism was defeated around that time by the Ottomans, but the end of the Ottoman empire and the creation of the state of Saudi Arabia in 1932 helped it flourish again. It was not the only conservative politico-religious movement linked to Arab nationalism: the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in 1928 and quickly gained followers.

    Ironically, his youngest brother Gamal al-Banna (still alive at 90), is a liberal and a reformist who wants to rid Islam of archaism, intolerance and misogyny!

  322. says

    Walton, Ing – you don’t and shouldn’t praise the lying. And you don’t need to, either. Praise the ethics, the courage, anything true about it.

    Also, I basically agree with what Esteleth said @311. I also see liberal religion as useful harm reduction for the most part. Though I don’t deny that there is an issue with enabling the fundies, they also provide a half-way house for escaping from funds.

    I see it much like needle exchanges – they don’t get people off hard drugs, but campaigning against them on that grounds is dumb. They save lives. If nobody abused injectable drugs, we could happily lose them – but that just isn’t the case. The far right in their moral purity prefer dead addicts to any appearance of socially support to drug use; I strongly disagree.

    There’s an interesting case at point 4 on
    this list – the MCC is dying out where gay rights are more taken for granted, but growing elsewhere. The mainstream has become more liberal, and that has almost certainly saved the lives of some queer youth.

  323. consciousness razor says

    I also see liberal religion as useful harm reduction for the most part.

    Liberal religion is of course generally causing less harm than fundamentalist religion. But let’s not kid ourselves: it’s still causing harm.

    I see it much like needle exchanges – they don’t get people off hard drugs, but campaigning against them on that grounds is dumb.

    But in this case, it’s like the needles being provided are themselves contaminated, albeit with less dangerous viruses. And it just so happens that HIV eats them for breakfast.

  324. says

    And “causing less harm”, not no harm, is the *exact point* of the harm reduction approach to social problems. Also found in folk sayings as “half a loaf is better than no bread”. You cannot have your ideal solution now. Prohibition doesn’t work. So… what do you do instead?

  325. David Marjanović says

    When Esme & Rubin wake up, Chas runs upstairs and lies down on top of the fresh salad on the salad plate to prevent the young ones from getting any.

    …Oh. I thought you were complaining about ChasCPeterson. :-]

    Ironically, his youngest brother Gamal al-Banna (still alive at 90), is a liberal and a reformist who wants to rid Islam of archaism, intolerance and misogyny!

    Ha! Awesome. :-)

    Places with moderate Islam as the most influential ideology: Turkey, Indonesia…

    It’s wrong to say Christianity has undergone the Enlightenment. Only the Protestant and Catholic churches have. The Orthodox ones, among others, haven’t, and sometimes it shows.

  326. chigau (同じ) says

    Another thing I learned today:
    when simmering a chicken carcass (and onions and bay and other things) for soup-stock, if you lean over the pot and breathe because it smells soooo good, you can get a quite nice facial out of the deal.

  327. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, liar and scoundrel says

    Josh, Sally:
    I wish I could pop by to see you guys, but my bff will be here any minute now* and I have muffins to bake. :)

    *Squeeeeeeee!

  328. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    kristinc, I’m sorry to hear about your dog. *hug*

    There’s homemade split pea soup just starting on the stove.

    Rescue the poor thing; don’t just let the torment go on and on. Spilt pea soup is horribly damaging.

    I see the attenuation of religion into something less virulent as moving the Window, until finally it’s close enough that we can push religion out it, watch it fall, and then close and lock the Window.

  329. chigau (同じ) says

    I also made banana bread today but I put it in muffin tins with paper liners.
    This is the first time I’ve made non-disaster muffin/cupcakes!!!!
    Tasty, moist, good crumb.
    yay me

  330. consciousness razor says

    And “causing less harm”, not no harm, is the *exact point* of the harm reduction approach to social problems. Also found in folk sayings as “half a loaf is better than no bread”. You cannot have your ideal solution now. Prohibition doesn’t work. So… what do you do instead?

    One thing we can do right now is be honest that faith itself is harmful. It isn’t beneficial or neutral.

    You can put liberal religion into terms of “reducing harm” only relative to the much greater harm something else causes, and that’s fine to do because we should be considering the bigger picture of all the social problems we face. I’m not denying any of that.

    However, I also don’t think it’s right to think of ourselves as using the liberals to achieve our ends. The fact is, they’re still much more powerful than we are anyway, so I doubt most of the progress they may make would be due primarily to our influence until consider the much longer picture. But I also don’t have all the same goals as liberal religionists, so to the extent their goals are at odds with mine, I don’t expect them to like my criticism or to go along with it. They’ll continue to be faithheads, and I’ll be an atheist who despises faith. Why would I do anything else?

  331. carlie says

    Epstein will not be able to come to class to day because Epstein just died.

    Signed,
    Epstein’s Mother

    I {heart} you, janine.

    Child had a pretty depressing day at school. He said it went like this:
    1st period: math teacher yelled at them all for poor quiz grades
    2nd: social studies, started on WWI
    3rd: English, started on Edgar Allen Poe
    4th: home and careers, movie on domestic violence

    Sheesh!

  332. says

    Printed four photos today (two 11×14 and two 8×10) and paid a total of $8.66. Sam’s Club FTW.

    In case you’re curious: first 11×14, second 11×14, first 8×10, and second 8×10 (but without the watermarks, obviously).

    ####

    Also, bought a bag of roasted, unsalted peanuts for squirrel feed.

    Does anyone know of a food that ducks eat, but squirrels don’t? I’d like to avoid squabbling; ducks can’t eat hard-shelled nuts (as far as I’m aware), but what can I give to the ducks without worrying about the squirrels trying to snatch it?

    ####

    Where can I buy a decent bag? I’m currently using a $10 Ikea messenger bag, but it’s… well, it’s a $10 Ikea bag.

    I’d like a bag that will hold a 15″ laptop (chances are very good I’ll end up with another laptop the same size as my current one) along with the necessary gadgets and doodads required to make it work, plus a couple of books, writing implements and paper, other materials to read (translation: a metric ass-ton of papers), et cetera.

    Bonus points for looking halfway professional.

    Ideas?

  333. walton says

    I realized recently that this Sunday, January 29th, is the 100th anniversary of the death of Anna LoPizzo, an Italian immigrant textile worker shot dead during the famous “Bread and Roses” strike in Massachusetts in 1912. I’m trying to write a blog post about it, though my brain doesn’t seem to be working right now.

    You’d think that, in a century, society would have made somewhat more progress than it has in the treatment of immigrant workers. But… instead we now have SB 1070, HB 56, “Secure Communities” (probably the most misnamed government program in history), a multi-million-dollar immigration detention industry, and Joe Arpaio.

  334. says

    consciousness razor:

    Liberal religion is of course generally causing less harm than fundamentalist religion. But let’s not kid ourselves: it’s still causing harm.

    This. This baked in a cheesecake. A double-decker sandwich of this.

    Look at the Scofield thread. It’s all about conflating acceptable religion with religion in general. As soon as you take revelation as an acceptable source of knowledge, you cut empiricism off at the knees.

    This with “hell yeah” sauce.

  335. says

    nigelTheBold: Thanks.

    It’s really hard to accept compliments, actually. It’s taking all of my effort to avoid pointing out the hundreds of photos I take for every one I show.

    … dangit.

    But, on the bright side, it appears that every photographer worth their salt does the same thing, so I’m getting more comfortable not pointing that fact out.

  336. Happiestsadist says

    Entertainment district of downtown, which, as the name of course implies, is a mass of quiet condos and ad companies. You?

  337. says

    Benjamin:

    It’s really hard to accept compliments, actually

    Well, get used to it. I suspect you’re going to get a lot of compliments.

    And stop worrying about the hundreds you take to get the one that matters. I took photography in high school. I know what it takes to get the perfect shot. A lot of it is composition, having an eye for your subject. A lot more of it is working your craft, a patience for that fantastic shot. Not the perfect one. The transcendent one.

    I had neither the eye, nor the patience.

    Get used to the compliments. You’re going to get a lot of them.

  338. chigau (同じ) says

    Some Ducks™ eat bugs, try a pet store.
    For good carry-bags, try a store that sells carry-bags. Luggage or camera or computer store.

  339. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Church-Wellesley Village. I can’t stand the Entertainment District. I spend almost all of my time between Bloor, Dundas, Parliament and University. I’m so insular.

    Actually, I have a tiny dilemma. Should I go dancing at the Barn (Battle Pop tonight, Madonna versus Kylie Minogue) or should I stay in and stay up all night (as well as sober) and finish playing Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword? Oh, I’m conflicted.

  340. kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ says

    Have gone to the vet. Zoe checks out fine in the sense that she obviously sustained no new injuries while she was out, but in addition to her creaky hip she now has two creaky knees (most likely a factor of time since her last exam, not actual injuries from her unauthorized run).

    She’s putting weight on her leg now, so no special pain killers, just more aspirin and heat. And continued arthritis management.

  341. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Wait, Happiestsadist, you’re not in a Shity City Place condo, are you? People who live in Condo Wasteland always have a perception of the size of the Entertainment District commensurate with how deep (and thus unhappy) they are with living in Condo Wasteland. :P

  342. Happiestsadist says

    It’s a nice place to live, but it contains pretty much nothing. But it’s close to the Mr’s work, so that’s where we landed when we came here from NB. On the other hand, getting to interesting places is awfully easy.

    I have zero ties to the queer community here, so I have no fun at all anymore. I miss dancing SO MUCH. I say go out and have extra fun for me. (I fail at life: move to the big city from small town where I used to spend all my time in my underwear at the queer bar, spend urban life sitting inside reading stuff on the internet.)

    Also, Toronto Pharyngulites should meet up sometime, just sayin’. I know it’s not just us two.

  343. Happiestsadist says

    It’s a condo building that’s about half apartments (we’re in one of the latter). It’s a truly lovely place on the inside, and within walking distance to away from the condo forest. I’d say the district such as it is is definitely small. I can deal with that.

  344. says

    Nigel:

    A lot more of it is working your craft, a patience for that fantastic shot. Not the perfect one. The transcendent one.

    Yep. I still remember lying in a muddy ditch on a windy day, taking close to a hundred shots to get this one and that was back in my point ‘n’ shoot days, before I got my current gear.

  345. says

    chigau:

    I’m going to have to keep the bug suggestion in mind for the next time I go out specifically to shoot… but one advantage of peanuts is that I can keep them in my bag at all times.

    And I looked at a couple of department stores today (JC Penney, Dillards, and Sears, I think, plus Wallyworld). There was something at Dillards that might have done reasonably well if it weren’t $200.

    I’m not looking for a camera bag right now; actually, one reason I’m thinking of getting a messenger bag instead of a backpack is so I can carry my camera bag (backpack) at the same time.

  346. Happiestsadist says

    In my experience, nobody sings that as much as people from Toronto. There’s a reason that it’s not only the most disliked city in Canada, and agrees that it should be. But then, Rob Ford makes a compelling argument that this is reasonable.

  347. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    It’s not just the two of us and we should all meet up sometime. I just know it’d be entertaining at the least. I wonder if we could all try to arrange something?

    Oh, don’t be so boring! Go out. Toronto’s queer scene is so fascinating. It’s especially so now that there are 2 ‘gay villages’. Of course, I usually neglect West Queen West, but that’s mostly because I have distressingly violent urges when I’m surrounded by hipsters*. Mostly because skinny jeans are just plain awful and ironic irony (especially when it’s not ironic) is irritating. It’s also because I just don’t fit the scene. It’s so nice that all the young people don’t exactly need gay bars anymore, but I just find the atmosphere’s well, young and confusing.

    I love the Village, though. I rarely leave my little riding of Toronto Centre, let alone my neighbourhood and it’s because I love them so well. I’m practically smack in the middle of downtown and everything I need (especially now that there’s that huge new Loblaws in Maple Leaf Gardens) is within walking distance.

    I’ll do good by you and go out for the both of us. But I’m not going to be in just my underwear. I’m not 19 anymore and I’m forbidden to wear button-down shirts when drunk to prevent me from my habit of stripping. (It’s so hard not to join the topless hordes circa 2am.)

  348. Happiestsadist says

    Oh yeah, Thomathy: most definitely not Cityplace. (How in the hell is that Entertainment District? People seriously think it is?) I’m… very close to Osgoode Station.

  349. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Oh good, you’re not in the Wasteland. That’d make it extra hard for you not to fail at big city life. At least from where you are, you could try. Hey, I bet C Lounge would be a good place for you to check out, if you haven’t. They have noodle dishes, too …can’t figure out why.

  350. Happiestsadist says

    I think a meetup would be lovely. And would get me out of the house, which I really need to do more of, though not tonight, as I am only still awake because it’s a bit until the cat gets her insulin shot.

    I think the thing keeping me out of the queer scene is that I mostly just know straight folks here, and have generally gotten the tourist’s brushoff when I’ve made an attempt. I’ve loved the time I’ve spent in the Village, but it tends to remind me that I am awkward as hell by myself. It was so much easier when there was only one queer bar to go to, and I knew 3/4 of the people.

    I like skinny jeans. :( Okay, for some things, and on some people. But in like Kensington or West Queen West, it does get a little…irony-saturated, even if there are some lovely places scattered through. But there’s a new Loblaws not too far on Queen West, so it’s not just Chinatown for us. We can get french fries and stuff. Woo.

    It is kind of amazing how in cities people just carve out their territory and everything beyond is “HERE BE DRAGONS”. I try to get out of that by going graveyarding in nicer neighbourhoods when the weather is nice.

    Shirtlessness is contagious. (See also: me at Pride) Have an excellent time.

  351. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Yeah, HappiestSadist, people are dumb and jealous. Oh, I like the area near Osgoode. The Grange is cools.

  352. chigau (同じ) says

    Benjamin Geiger
    Now that I’ve thought more, fishing stores also sell, as bait, “mealy-worms” AKA fly maggots.
    They are usually dead(ish) and come in sealed bags or pill- bottles.
    The bag I am currently using for my netbook is something I knit myself.

    Happiestsadist
    No Torontonian for who(m) I have played the Toronto Song has reacted with anything but offence, outrage or lip-quivering.

  353. says

    Caine: I got the protected message as well.
    Ben: Nice work. Ignore the people blathering about the “rule of thirds.” I’m sure the critics told Stravinsky stuff like that too.
    I personally take, well, tens of shots for everything I use, and I have to current pretensions of going pro. And my subjects mostly haven’t moved for thousands of years. The challenge is usually getting to the place that I’m shooting from. And when I’m there, I don’t have time to wait.

  354. Thomathy, now angrier and feminister says

    Okay, last post, and I need to bolt.

    kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~, I haven’t said anything yet, but I’m really happy your dog is alright.

    Happiestsadist, I do get out of my little territory…I was exaggerating …a little (well …nice weather really does help). I want to move to Cabbage Town. I want a townhouse!

    Pride is coming! I promise to have fun tonight.

    *Must think about how to arrange something in TO for everyone.

  355. Happiestsadist says

    For srs, chigau? The ones I’ve shared it with either laughed or sang along. Because it’s awesome. But then, the stereotype of unpleasant Torontonians has to come from somewhere, and we got enough of them back in NB for some godawful reason (if you hate NB so much, GTFO).

    I love The Grange. We walk through it on the way to get groceries, and there are always squirrels being silly and adorable dogs. Plus, being able to see the AGO from my window means short walks to go stare at art.

  356. says

    feralboy12:

    Ignore the people blathering about the “rule of thirds.”

    I’ll argue this a bit. The rules of photography are there for a reason – they work. Before you can break the rules in a way that makes for a brilliant shot, you need to know what the rules are, you need to understand them and be able to shoot using the rules without even thinking – they should happen automatically.

    I break the rules when the shot calls for it. A basic, well-practiced grounding in the rules is to great benefit though.

  357. cicely (Now With 37.5% Less Fleem!!) says

    kristinc, relieved to hear about your dog.

    Awesome pic, Caine!

    ‘Night, all.

  358. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    The Rule of Thirds works. Breaking it works as well but in general it’s a good way to draw attention to the subject.

    My latest

  359. says

    The rules of photography are there for a reason – they work.

    No argument with that. But, looking at Ben’s work, I think he can safely ignore people harping about the more basic rules that he’s probably aware of. Getting a grounding in that stuff is great, but it’s not what you think about when you create.
    I mentioned Stravinsky in passing earlier–I spent two years in music school writing counterpoint and fugues and parallel thirds and sixths and triads and so forth before they let me start doing what I really wanted to do, which was stack perfect fifths, treat ninths as a stable interval and other stuff that just sounded more like what was in my head.
    Yeah, know the rules of common practice–but be wary of people whose first reaction is that you broke them. Sometimes they’re just trying to sound like experts, when all they’ve ever done is learn a couple of rules.

  360. Weed Monkey says

    Oh bloody fucking hell. Apparently there are some pest insects in my apartment building (Attagenus woodroffei), and they are going to be poisoned next Wednesday. Incidentally I also have a therapy session at 10 am the same day, but I have no idea where I could evacuate teh Kitteh to.

    And after three weeks they’ll do it again. Just to be sure.

  361. says

    feralboy12:

    Getting a grounding in that stuff is great, but it’s not what you think about when you create.

    That’s missing my point a bit – you shouldn’t have to think about the rules, they should be something you do without thinking.

    I had a hard time wrapping my head around the rules, I did them naturally before I even knew what they fucking were. Mister says that’s because I’m an artist, but who knows? I do think you need to train yourself until it’s automatic, then you can break all the rules because you know what you’re doing.

    Hanging out at DPS is good when you’re figuring stuff out and I can’t talk up photoSIG enough. It’s a great place to receive critiques and learn how to critique others. It can be brutal, so if you’re the type to freak or cry when someone points out all the things wrong with the latest shot you’re in love with, it might not be the place for you. (Using a general you here, not you personally.)

    Yes, there are a lot of idiots out there who will give you grief over a shot, but it’s important to learn enough to recognize when you’re getting a valuable criticism.

    Cicely, thanks!

    Rev. BDC., that is *gorgeous*! I adore a crescent shape in landscapes, one of my favourite things.

  362. says

    feralboy12, Caine, RevBDC, etc:

    Nobody’s been hassling me about the Rule of Thirds. The reason I made that remark on that photo was because I found the situation amusing.

    After all, someone stuck in blind obedience to the rules would note first that the tree is centered. That was my first thought when I saw the photo while importing, in fact. But if they look a bit closer, they’ll notice that the true subject of the photo (a wood stork) is at one of the corners, and what’s more, it’s at the one where the eye naturally starts, at least for speakers of Western languages. So by ‘breaking’ the rule, I actually obey the rule more closely.

    I’m still at that level of skill where breaking the rules intentionally leads to bad results more often than good, but I still learn every time I do so.

  363. Pteryxx says

    Happiestsadist: I just saw your reply over on Natalie’s questions thread. I wanted to thank you again. My email is my nym at gmail, though I keep going uncommunicative and forgetting it exists. …Also, I don’t really know what I would ask or talk about, re abuse and gender and suchlike. I just seem to keep reading things and blundering into things, and three days later, “Oh, so that’s what that meant.” I seem to be tremendously enjoying trans issues though. <_<

    Mostly I talk through these forums, YIM and IRC. With any luck, this last few days means I'm learning to be part of a community again.

  364. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I just got shooshed by mrs. bigdumbchimp because she’s watching Flight of the Conchords on her iPad and traffic was too loud.

  365. says

    You shouldn’t have to think about the rules, they should be something you do without thinking.

    Well, I always felt that if you’re going to break them, you should know you’re doing so and have a reason. And maybe we’re really talking about fundamentals and not rules; rules, I think, are more about dictating style, constraints that shape a work of art. You need them, but they change over time.
    And in modern music composition, which I admittedly know more about than the visual arts, you basically invent your own set of rules, and maybe a new set for every piece. But you stick to them, because that’s what gives coherence to the work.
    So is the “rule of thirds” a rule or a fundamental? If Picasso can put both eyes on the same side of the nose, I figure Ben can put the bird in the upper left corner.
    I’ve also had special training in ignoring random criticism that doesn’t come with a paycheck, having played in bar bands and had people yell shit like “you guys are off beat, my cousin’s in a band.” Lots of people want to sound like experts.

  366. says

    feralboy:

    So is the “rule of thirds” a rule or a fundamental?

    Both. When someone consistently ignores it, they take a shitload of bad photos. The situations where breaking the rule makes for a brilliant shot don’t come up near as often as some people might think. When it comes to photography, you need to be consistently good within all the rules (or fundamentals, if you prefer) before you can be good when it comes to breaking the rules or ignoring the fundamentals.

    If Picasso can put both eyes on the same side of the nose, I figure Ben can put the bird in the upper left corner.

    Sure. That doesn’t mean the photo will work, or that it wouldn’t be better if shot differently. Sometimes that works, most of the time, it won’t. Every artist isn’t a Picasso and not many photographers achieve fame. Photography, professionally, is a tough game. I make a decent living with my photography, but I have no illusions about getting famous doing it, any more than I do with my art. I’m recognized in a small sphere and I do well enough and I’m grateful for that. The best way to get somewhere with photography is to start at the beginning, pay attention to the rules/fundamentals and spend a fair amount of time working from and within those rules/fundamentals.

    There’s plenty of room to be creative even when playing by the rules, believe me. Everything is within the eye of the photographer. That’s where the creativity lies, not in breaking the rules. It’s how the photographer sees things that matters, the rules/fundamentals ensure you know how to successfully capture your particular point of view.

    I’ve also had special training in ignoring random criticism that doesn’t come with a paycheck, having played in bar bands and had people yell shit like “you guys are off beat, my cousin’s in a band.” Lots of people want to sound like experts.

    Like I said, there are always idiots. However, when looking to do something in art or photography, learning to listen to criticism is crucial. This is why I provided links to DPS, which is a great place to talk with other photographers, put up photos for critiques, learn techniques, etc. It’s an excellent place for beginners to intermediate.

    PhotoSIG is a much tougher venue, but I can’t even begin to say how much I learned by submitting my work for critique, critiquing others and hanging out on their forums.

  367. consciousness razor says

    That’s missing my point a bit – you shouldn’t have to think about the rules, they should be something you do without thinking.

    Errr, well, you shouldn’t do them without thinking at all, because then you’re not thinking about whether you ought to break them.

    I do think you need to train yourself until it’s automatic, then you can break all the rules because you know what you’re doing.

    I agree more with this. You have to understand it well enough to have a more-or-less immediate sense of what generally works and what doesn’t.

    ———

    I’ve also had special training in ignoring random criticism that doesn’t come with a paycheck, having played in bar bands and had people yell shit like “you guys are off beat, my cousin’s in a band.” Lots of people want to sound like experts.

    Heh. That’s hard for me to do sometimes. It’s not that I take some drunk fucker in a bar seriously, but I just can’t get the stupid shit they say out of my head.

  368. says

    If Picasso can put both eyes on the same side of the nose, I figure Ben can put the bird in the upper left corner.

    Sure. That doesn’t mean the photo will work, or that it wouldn’t be better if shot differently.

    Note that “the upper left corner”, in this case, refers to one of the intersection points for the Rule of Thirds. Take another look.

    Photography, professionally, is a tough game. I make a decent living with my photography, but I have no illusions about getting famous doing it, any more than I do with my art.

    I’ve often said that I’ll be happy if my photography pays for my photography. In other words, if I earn enough from it to pay for my gear, I’m way ahead of the curve.

    It’s a hobby for me, pure and simple.

  369. says

    CR:

    Errr, well, you shouldn’t do them without thinking at all, because then you’re not thinking about whether you ought to break them.

    I’m not expressing myself well, my apologies. Again, I had a hard time wrapping my head around the rules/fundamentals because I was doing them before I knew what they were. I know immediately if breaking the rules will work or not. Pretty much, when I pick up my camera, the only thing I’m thinking about is how I’m seeing things. The rest just follows automatically. I know it’s not like that for a lot of people.

    Benjamin:

    Note that “the upper left corner”, in this case, refers to one of the intersection points for the Rule of Thirds. Take another look.

    I know, I know! I’m sorry, I wasn’t intending to pick on your shot, just expanding in general to the points feralboy was making. I think it’s a fine shot, that tree is fantastic. I would have shot it differently, but that’s all down to each person’s eye.

    I’ve often said that I’ll be happy if my photography pays for my photography. In other words, if I earn enough from it to pay for my gear, I’m way ahead of the curve.

    There are ways to do that and being able to cover your costs does help a lot. I’ve sold a fair amount through my zenfolio, but it was getting into stock where I started making money. It’s tough to get started in stock, but the more you do, the better you get, the easier it is. Hobby or not, if you aren’t involved in forums like DPS, you should at least consider it. Really helpful, that.

  370. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Found these (yes, those do in fact fit me).

    WANT.

    Now, I have small feet, but I envy you your teeny ones. For one reason: Do you have any idea how distressed I am that I can’t wear these?
    SO distressed.
    (I’ll go catch up now)

  371. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    Ahem.
    I mean, cool, I will check those out.

  372. says

    CC:

    I mean, cool, I will check those out.

    :D There’s a wealth of cool boy’s wellies out there, lots of neat dinosaur ones. I’m a women’s 6, so I fit a boy’s size 4. It’s usually pretty easy to find boy’s sizes 2 and up.

  373. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    {waay up thread}

    Ankles

    … there I was, trying to figure out what this was all about. Then I started catching up on Rachel Maddow:

    … if you get lemon juice from anything other than a piece of fruit that’s commonly known as a lemon, I will hide under your bed at night and grab your ankles when you get up in the morning and terrify you forever. In my other life, I am a goblin.

    @ Benjamin

    If you enjoy photography, you could consider linking up with other photographers and undertaking tasks/trips together. This not only gives you new perspectives on the way you tackle your subjects, but is a great way to socialise with like minded people. Here we go out with a group that is an amazing mix of nationalities and – guided by some very well connected local members – we can get into the most amazing places and events. (I need to start posting some more of my pics some time.)

    ….

    Re: Immigrants to the West. (and vice versa)

    People who have been displaced to a new culture and environment will often cling to (what they perceive as) their old ways as a reaction to culture shock brought on by the new circumstance. This is quite a natural reaction for many people. This can be ameliorated by making efforts to communicate and understand. If anything the onus falls more to the established culture to be welcoming. On the other hand the problem is only enhanced by the bigotry and resentment immigrants encounter. Whichever path is chosen will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Consider also expatriate westerners who cling to everything of their old countries and try and block out the new when they live abroad. They often tend to suffer from some of the worst bigotry and xenophobia one can imagine and often have an unfounded sense of superiority and entitlement. I suspect strongly that those who make such lousy hosts in their own country also make such lousy guests when the situation is reversed.

    Ghetto-isation, even if voluntary, is not a long time solution. Neither is complete assimilation. We should just revel in our differences, as they make life so much more interesting.

  374. theophontes, Hexanitroisowurtzitanverwendendes_Bärtierchen says

    @ Sally

    *cough*linky*cough*fail*cough*

  375. carlie says

    chigau – me too, on both counts. :)
    I saw an Ansel Adams exhibit awhile ago – what really leapt out at me looking at the prints was the resolution. Every grain of sand, every tree bud, perfectly crisp. Hi-def ain’t got nothin’ on an 8×10 negative.

  376. KG says

    As I’ve said, Islam exists in this world it is unacceptable to wait for Muslim theocracies to play catch-up with the ‘West’. Certainly the citizens of these theocracies seem to feel that way, but I don’t get the impression that they also want to leave their particular versions of Islam behind. – Thomathy

    Which states are you referring to as “Muslim theocracies”? Really, the only one that fits that description is Iran, where the “Supreme Leader” has the final say and is chosen by the religious “Board of Guardians”. The nearest to a theocracy among other states would be Saudi Arabia, but that’s really an absolute monarchy underpinned by a religious ideology: if the king decided to liberalise and could take enough of the al-Saud clan with him, the ulema would not be able to stop him.

  377. KG says

    The problem with energy, in my opinion, is what it allows us to do to our environment (and by extension our societies). We are seeing the problem the wrong way round. It is not so much about alternative energy as energy efficiency. Alternative energy still leads to antisocial developments such as urban sprawl and poor use of land resources. Anything that is driven by a “business as usual” attitude is not going to work. – theophontes

    I only just noticed this. I certainly agree with the last sentence – though everything before “is not” could probably be replaced by “Capitalism”; and alternative energy is certainly not free of environmental problems – although, in a nice parallel to soem of the disputes about Islam/Muslims on FTB, this fact is routinely used by fossil fuel interests to entrench their position. But unfortunately, energy efficiency also has a big problem, first noted (not as a problem, just as a phenomenon) by the economist Jevons in the 19th century: the “Jevons paradox” is that increases in the efficiency with which coal was used led to increased demand for coal in the medium term. This is because increasing efficiency cuts costs, and so makes additional uses of coal (or any other resource) economically feasible. On a smaller scale, if you persuade people to insulate their home to cut costs, the money saved may well be used to raise the home’s temperature, buy a new appliance, or fly to the Seychelles for a holiday.

  378. says

    Hi there!

    kristinc
    Sorry to hear about the dog, I hope she gets better soon.
    Yes, Shit my kids ruined is a fun site to browse when you’re fed up with yours. You can always say “well, at least they didn’t break the flatscrenn TV” (unless they’ve broken the flatscreen TV. In taht case you can say “well, at least they didn’t drive the car into the house.”)

    Liberal religion is of course generally causing less harm than fundamentalist religion. But let’s not kid ourselves: it’s still causing harm.

    That’s true, but as others have mentioned, sometimes in life the choices are between bad and worse.
    And honestly, if all of the world’s religious people were like your average German Lutheran, I doubt that we’d care much.

  379. says

    Am I the only one to have my browser go wonky on the first Zappos’ link? I only tried the first one and I had to CTRL ALT DELETE Firefox. It was all virusy and shit. I understandably never went back.
    ++++++++++++
    Shooting 100:1 is a little extreme, but affordable these days. (Thank you, thank you, gods of digital;-)

    Even scripted shoots were 14:1 to 6:1, depending on what was printed.

    Old codger here; I used to say I would never buy a camera because the developing was 1/2 the photo.

    Then (~30 years ago) I started working on helicopters offshore in the Gulf Of Mexico and realized that these were unique days and I’d better document them.

    I ended up having my own show at a gallery, and only one was bought:(
    I did have one other that was picked up (and paid for a fuckton of developing and printing) by my local town at that time visitor’s bureau. I got a flat fee and they got a postcard. It’s so corny I haven’t even digitized the slide yet. But it took me 3 months of shots and a lucky break to get a sunset over a piling and a seagull landing on the piling.

    These days I shoot more and Photoshop the difference between what my eye sees and what the camera records.

    BTW, nothing I’ve written is meant to detract from what anyone else here has written. Caine & Benjamin are far better than I am.

    I learned something from music and photography and other arts; Only show your best work and never explain it.

  380. says

    I was just thinking about something I read about Ansel Adams in Mark Dowie’s Conservation Refugees, which came to mind because of the discussion of the 6th edition of Be Scofield’s Cultural Essentialism in the Modern World: A Guide to Condescension and Intellectual Dishonesty. Dowie talks about how Adams (whose works I first saw and loved* decades ago at the International Center of Photography at the U. of Arizona, which is itself awesome) and other photographers consciously avoided including humans in their images, promoting the idea of untouched wilderness that needed to be protected from human contact. He argues that Adams knew the Miwok had been there for thousands of years and that they’d been forcibly evicted from Yosemite, but took thousands of pictures that erased their presence, which contributed to a problematic notion of wilderness and conservation that’s led to further evictions, marginalization, and suffering in the US and around the world. Whatever Adams’ motives for leaving local people out of his photographs and presenting the land as undisturbed by human hands, I do see the pictures differently now.

    *(despite their stubborn refusal to be seascapes :))