Ken Ham read my article on Hitchens’ death, and he didn’t like it. No sir, not one bit. So he expressed his dislike on his facebook page.
Some of you have heard of atheist PZ Myers, an American biology professor at the University of Minnesota Morris. (Imagine entrusting your kids education to such a professor). I rarely read his anti-Christian blogs (and would not advise you to frequent this often vile God hating blog site), but I thought his blog today that someone informed me about, concerning the passing of atheist Christopher Hitchens, is worth reading. One wonders if Myers is trying to convince himself there is no judgment after death, in his gloating about Hitchens not being in Heaven. I think the blog is worth reading as it really does illustrate the sheer hopelessness of atheism–and also clearly shows that atheists know the truth in their heart (as Romans 1 clearly states), otherwise why would an atheist even bother writing such stuff in this blog as if he is putting his hands over his ears and shouting ‘God I refuse to listen–I refuse to believe.’ God is certainly long-suffering–but there will come a time when God has the last say. I am also reminded of the Scriptures to ““…not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”(Matthew 4:7). PZ Myers is certainly doing that.
My blog isn’t about the hopelessness of atheism — it’s about the triumph of life. We’re all going to die someday, and rather than dwelling on a lot of imaginary nonsense about what happens after we’re dead, we should revel more in all that we have before we’re dead. But then, we atheists aren’t trapped in the Christian death cult.
Anyway, ol’ Piglet Ken is just blithering away mindlessly. It’s interesting to see how the faulty mind of a Christian operates, but there’s more…a lot of his followers left comments on Ham’s post, and I try to answer them all below.
David Lanier: the only thing worse than a militant atheist is a militant atheist who feigns omniscience
[I’m not the one claiming knowledge of an invisible man who will resurrect me into an invisible kingdom where I’ll spend eternity praising the magic man. I don’t think my essay claimed omniscience; it said Hitch was dead, and we’re all going to be dead someday too (both pretty much givens), and that we should fight back and live well as best we can. -pzm]
Inell Johnson Barnes: Exactly, why bother?
[Why bother living well? OK, give me your car. And your bank account numbers. You can go squat in a hole with a Bible. -pzm]
David Quin: I think, in so many cases, the atheists are more trying to convince themselves of what they believe than trying to convince others. If they yell it loud enough, if they state it enough times, it provides reinforcement for the belief of no God. Of course, in any atheists heart of hearts, their is that question they all have and they hope by yelling loud enough it will drown out that still small voice.
[Wait, who was just accused of omniscience here? No, there’s no little voice in my heart — there is no god anywhere speaking to me. -pzm]
Hall Family: Wow! that opinion (that Hitchens isn't in Heaven) may be the only chance you get to agree with PZ!
[I’m about to ruin your little moment of triumph. Hitch isn’t in hell, either. -pzm]
Diane Cofer Panaro: so sad; so hopeless. If "Death" (with a capital D) is his enemy, Who does he consider his ally?
[My fellow human beings who live lives of reason. -pzm]
Leilani Luna: How sad. No consolation or hope :(
[None for you, either. Someday you’ll be as dead as Hitch, and as dead as I’ll be. We find our hope and joy in our lives, right now…not in an imaginary world, sight unseen, that we only get to enter after we’re dead and unable to come back and tell everyone that the priests lied to us. -pzm]
Jeremiah Stiles: He seems to realize that death is our enemy, but if evolution is how we came about, death is what formed us…
[Yeah, it sucks. Evolution is a brutal, wasteful, destructive process. I only say that it’s real, and it happened — not that we have to like it. Same with death: it happens to us all. That does not imply that we should succumb willingly. -pzm]
Scotty Bee: I say we keep praying for him. It is sad. Thanks Ken
[Meaningless, empty gestures don’t impress me. See my reply to Inell; send me your mortgage, or even a tithe will do. -pzm]
Mark Calladus: What a vile, evil person.
[Who, me? I reject your mythology, and that makes me evil? Color me unsurprised. -pzm]
Jason Alan Murdock: Reproducing Jeremiah, reproducing.
[Weird. I have no idea what this guy is babbling about. -pzm]
Rebecca Kvenvolden: wow, that’s really discouraging :( it amazes me the faith these people must have to truly believe all this came from nothing and will go to nothing. All that, in order to have faith in an enemy that cant’ ever be conquered. I guess that is why Paul says 2 Corinthians 4:4
“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ”[We all come from humble beginnings: a pair of cells nestled in slime. I take pride in the fact that I’ve made something multicellular of myself. And of course death can’t be conquered…but oh, the battle can be glorious. -pzm]
Robert Foster: "I think the blog is worth reading as it really does illustrate the sheer hopelessness of atheism–and also clearly shows that atheists know the truth in their heart (as Romans 1 clearly states), otherwise why would an atheist even bother writing such stuff in this blog as if he is putting his hands over his ears and shouting 'God I refuse to listen–I refuse to believe."
Well said!
[I’m not talking to god — he doesn’t exist. I’m talking to my fellow human beings. If the only words worth being spoken are addressed to your phantasm in the sky, why are you commenting on facebook? Get in that hole with Inell and Scotty Bee. -pzm]
Mandy Joye: he's no longer an atheist!!
[Who? Hitch? No, he’s dead. He doesn’t exist anymore. -pzm]
Jimmie Douglas: He believes in "Death" as an immortal enemy. He believes that something and someone survives after this life. Why can't he believe in the Author of Life? "I can swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell."
[No, that’s silly. I don’t believe in an anthropomorphic, sentient death. I believe in a process called death, I believe in entropy, I believe we get our brief run before the inevitability of chance snuffs us out, because I can see that in action. I also see the generation of new order and new life, but not at the hands of an “Author”. -pzm]
Liz Dueck: It's interesting that he uses the phrase "fight against our mortal enemy Death" when the beliefs he embraces with such tenacity will lead him nowhere else.
[And yours will take you to the same place. At least I’ll face my death someday with my eyes open and no silly illusions rattling around in my brain to make me look like a clown. -pzm]
Jeffrey Dykes: We should "rage against the darkness"? If atheism is true, what's the difference between life and death anyway? All reality is just a random mix of molecules. "Life" and "death" are merely arbitrary terms. Hitchens was just a swirling mix of chemicals from the Big Bang or whatever, and now the chemicals are simply being rearranged. Why get upset over it?
[Gosh. We atheists are clever enough to be able to tell the difference between a living human being and a corpse. You mean Christians can’t? -pzm]
Travis Walts: I read the article and then went on to read some of the comments. I am amazed that there was a comment believing that we "Christians" would be celebrating at this mans death. The death of a lost person is not a cause of celebration, it is a tragedy.
[Nice of you to say so, but I’ve seen what Rick Warren and Ray Comfort and Ken Ham had to say. More than a few Christians have crowed at the idea that Hitch is facing your imaginary judgment before a vengeful god. -pzm]
Shane Hill: I am seriously grieved at the passing of Christopher…as a Christian I prayed for his redemption in Christ….and as Christians , just like our Savior, we desire that none our lost…..the radical atheists commnuinty sadly has no understanding of who Christ is and who is Bride is….yes we do have to suffer the consquences of our actions but I would love to see everyone saved!
[So you’re imagining that Christopher Hitchens is now a lost soul who will burn in hell forever? You and Travis Walts need a good talking to. You’re both gloating over your assumption of Hitch’s fate, and you’re both rather repellent creatures. You’re why many of us atheists despise Christianity. Not that you’ll ever comprehend that. -pzm]
Shane Hill: Of course, the reality is sadly most of humanity reject Christ….I wish it were not so but most travel the broad road….how sad and tragic!
[How sad and tragic that you lot blithely condemn most of humanity to hell. -pzm]
Michelle Rose: I read through some of the comments of his followers. It looks like he is responsible for dragging people away from God. Sad. I am sad for him. Yes, we really need to pray for Dawkins, and I will.
[Bwahahahaha! Yes, I am responsible for dragging…wait. You just confused me with Dawkins, didn’t you? Dammit. That really ruins a good gloat. -pzm]
One thing you have to keep in mind when reading those comments is that they’re all by people who seriously believe that the planet is less than ten thousand years old. It really puts them all in perspective and makes them look particularly stupid, I’m afraid.
I certainly can’t imagine entrusting my kids’ education to someone who doesn’t know how to use apostrophes, Ken.
I enjoy my life as much as possible because it’s the only one I have. Christopher Hitchens had a life filled with love and a passion for what he did, it’s a life to celebrate. Why on earth would anyone want anything to do with a god who doesn’t want you to extract one iota of flavour out of this life in favour of a bland, endless existence as a praise slave in a so-called afterlife?
PZ
You are on a roll!!!
I just wish some of *them* actually read this blog.
I’ll believe that atheists are trying to convince themselves that there’s no god/hell for thinking when they start acting like they’re going to heaven when they die. Why step out of the path of the semi, because it wouldn’t be nice to leave blood and guts on its bumper?
As Nietzsche noted, if they acted more “saved” we might at least pause at their claims. As they’re mostly threatening damnation from their imaginations, well, I’m not impressed.
Oh say, Ham, why do you and pigs share evidence of a common ancestor?
Glen Davidson
For clarity:
Glen Davidson
And if creation is how we came about, death is just a horror that God is too callous to abolish.
Or to put it another way, death is understandable with evolution, an indictment against God with creation.
Glen Davidson
We’re the misguided ones? We’re the ones that live miserable lives because we can’t see into their imaginary optimistic future? Because we want to make this life, the only one we know of with any degree of certainty, the best we can while we are here? They really are looking forward to the afterlife. It’s a damn shame. I’m looking forward to living this life, without fear of, or in anticipation for, what comes next.
Xians love to brag about how humble they are, but what is more humbling: thinking that all of creation was the act of a sky fairy who is uniquely interested in the fate of each individual human, to the point where this omnipotent, omniscient, omnisexual being sits in judgment of every individual and condemns them to eternal torment (either in the form of fire or harps), or understanding that we are a mere accident of nature, an inconsequential organization of matter in an insignificant blip of time and space? Personally, I find atheism much more humbling.
To his credit, he’s stumbled upon the fundamental tragedy of human existence, which is that we’re aware of our own mortality. But of course that awareness should spur us to make the most of our time here, and leave our mark. In other words, to emulate Hitch.
I’ve never really concerned myself with death. After all, nobody ever actually knows that they’ve died. One might realize that they’re near death, or that they’re dying, but you’ll never know that you’ve died. So there’s really nothing to be concerned about!
Being an atheist is much less stressful than having to worry about all this silly “afterlife” crap.
I kind of like repeating this, repeating. It’s just so odd.
Ken is a liar and charlatan. He isn’t a christian in any way, shape or form. He preys on christians. He wants to keep them stupid so they keep buying his products. He knows that evolution is a fact. He has been corrected countless times in public and private about his lies. He KNOWS he is wrong, but can’t let anyone know he is wrong or his cash cow will dry up and die.
Ray Comfort is in the same boat. Ray keeps trying to convince people that falling is a violation of the law of gravity… He knows he can’t admit the truth or his cow will wander off to pasture never to return.
This is the best Richard Dawkins blog post so far.
For someone pushing a religion supposedly full of love and hope, Ham is awfully nihilistic.
Actually, death – the end, made getting over my mother’s death quicker and easier than I expected. The few times I’ve faced imminent death I felt ready, though not willing, for it, no fear of it though.
Here I acknowledge a fault: I’ve taken a nasty little joy in the death of a public figure who stands for what I dislike.
But I wasn’t casually, condescendingly, unctuously self-righteous about it.
“I’ll pray for X” is Christian for “Fuck X”.
“And of course death can’t be conquered…but oh, the battle can be glorious.”
-PZ Myers
I want this on my tombstone.
So Christians don’t celebrate a death?
From a comment on the latimes.com web page about Hitchens’ death:
“i’m glad he is dead. this man espoused a bunch of hogwash. he rejected god, and now god will reject him the bible states, “a fool says in his heart, their is no god.”
I put that comment on Ham’s Facebook page.
Carlie stole the words right out of my mouth in the first post, so now I need to think of something else clever to say.
It’s really pathetic how these sorts of Christians are living for a second life that won’t ever come. As a child I was told repeatedly that this life is nothing but menstrual rags (yes really) compared to the afterlife and to not waste any time investing in anything that will only pay off in this life. The worst of the worst are the people who tell their children not to waste all that money on university because the world will end before it pays off.
They’re wasting the one life they get chasing after the fantasy that it won’t end, and they call us the self-deluding ones…
I said my piece there…don’t know if it’ll stay, so I’ll post here as well:
Y’know, if Newt Gingrich was a little dumber, less talented at evil, and could maintain a single marriage and faux-Xian faith, he would be Ken Kam.
May Ken H. stay conscious enough to notice that everything he has ever lied about is false, and may that moment of despair seem exceptionally long: he’s a truly ugly and greedy scumbag, even by Xian/Creationist “standards”.
Once he’s dead, I’ll have no beef with him, and may such a state be realized soon.
As a former fundamentalist christian, I can tell you that such people can see no other viewpoint beyond their own. They can barely imagine one. Those who don’t think as they do frighten them.
That said, they are the ones to be pitied. They spend their lives groveling at the nonexistent feet of an imaginary being, afraid to live for fear of offending this deity of theirs and being denied entry into eternity. Life as an atheist is not as easy as life as a believer, but it is so much richer.
I have done something probably few of Ham’s followers have. I have faced the imminent possibility of my own death. It was a bit less than 12 years ago and the cause was a triple bypass. The surgeon does let you know that the surgery may kill you. I discovered that the thought of dying didn’t particularly bother me, and it sure didn’t cause me to start believing in what Raven terms the Sky Monster.
–W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Ken actually made a lot of sense when he said, “…would not advise you to frequent this often vile God hating blog site.” Oh, wait. I bet he didn’t mean we hate his often vile God. Never mind.
Where in the hell do these people get off pretending that atheists are more disconsolate and without hope than they are? If they truly believed in any god, if they really, deeply truly had faith in the afterlife, they wouldn’t fight so hard for every last breath medical science can give them.
I will admit though, I was a good Christian woman until I stumbled upon this blog a couple months ago. I read one post and that was it for me. Bwahahahaha!
LOL, I had to go over and read all the comments for fear anyone I knew had posted on his blog – phew. I’ve spent a lot of time today remembering Hitch, watching old videos and reading old articles, and have been rather entertained by the expected comments from the superstitious. Hitch will always be an inspiration to me, encouraging me to say what I think and think hard before I speak, and he was one of those people I will miss for the rest of my life.
I really have to wonder if Christians have no hope for anything other than Heaven. Are their lives so sterile and wretched that they have no hope for nothing but Heaven? Do their lives have so little meaning that they cling to the forlorn promise they’ll have something better at the end of it?
Some of these people should have belts and shoelaces taken away from them. Jeffrey Dykes seems particularly in need of watching; if his beliefs ever crack, he’s going to be running around screaming “food for the worms!” until he collapses from exhaustion.
But when you’ve been taught to believe that this life is merely a test or a prelude or an illusion or whatever, that this world isn’t worth saving, and humans are all shits requiring “redemption,” that sort of nihilism only seems natural.
Meanwhile, I spent a good chunk of my day reading Hitch articles at Slate; I came away impressed with a man who was seriously engaged with the world he lived in.
Himself, haven’t you heard the expression “a god-fearing man”?
(I reckon it ain’t that they wish for Heaven, so much — it’s that they fear Hell)
Yep, looks like my comments were taken down.
If I had kids, I’d be exuberant to have them educated by someone like PZ.
as if he is putting his hands over his ears and shouting ‘God I refuse to listen–I refuse to believe.’
I think this phrase illustrates the mental confusion of theists with respect to atheists. I don’t want to speak (or write) for PZ, but if God-any God-manifested and started talking to me I’d be ready to listen to Him/Her/It/Them. Well, ok, first I’d try making God go away with haldol, psychotherapy, and maybe B12 or synthroid, but if I eventually became convinced that God was talking to me AND I was sane, I’d be ready to listen. But that hasn’t happened. Not for me, not for PZ, not for Ken Ham. No, nor for Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or Mohammed. And that lack of evidence of Gods in the world, not “rebellion” or hatred of God/s is what leads to atheism.
Oh whatever, Ken. You’re always going on and on about PZ and how crazy he is.
How so? PZ’s post was rather grim, a lament of death and no comfort of any afterlife. If we really knew “the truth” and it was as happy-shiny-wonderful as you say it is, then why would we deny it?
I don’t know. These people don’t even seem to see the hypocrisy in saying things like “If they yell it loud enough, if they state it enough times, it provides reinforcement for the belief of no God.” when the whole basis of their crazy church is endless testifying and buying bumper stickers and such. If Jesus really was your rock, then why would you get so freaked out over a Twitter hashtag?
Christards wear me out. Especially today.
PZ : yes. you have lead poor deluded souls away from Christ.
Now, if I could say the same, I would be happy.
They tried to teach my baby science!
Just a note, at least one of the folks PZ took potshots at above was actually on his side, potshoting at the “vile, evil” Ken Ham. Sometimes hard to tell, I know.
History, of course, will remember Hitchens as an intellectual giant, a man who changed lives and helped shaped discourse the world over; contrastingly, if Ken Ham is remembered by anyone, it will be as a pathetic one-note joke, a fool considered low-rent and intellectually dishonest even by Christian standards.
Thanks, PZ, this was the best of your responses to Comic Sans comments (and “I get email” is my favorite feature of your blog). Count me as your ally.
I find these so-called “Christians” have never stopped to ponder the meaning of life. As an atheist I know this life is important because it is the only opportunity I have to experience sentience. Once my biological processes come to an end so does my existence. This frightens most humans and to deal with their fear of death they turn to these supernatural myths to comfort them. They are jealous of atheists who can face death openly and honestly accepting it as the price of life. They seek escape in this imaginary afterlife where they believe they will have a domicile in heaven. They haven’t thought through the whole concept of eternity because they cannot comprehend time with no end. There is nothing I would want to do for an eternity. Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll, great food, fine wine, travel, exploration, books, being worshiped as a deity, etc… all of these things would grow tiresome in a few billions years or so… then you would still have an eternity of eternity to go. Even their eternal damnation of hell would get boring after a million years or so because torture would become tedious no matter how innovative Satan was in his regimen. Nope, what makes this life so precious is the scarcity of the resource. In an estimated 13.7 billion years of this universe we get to experience 75 to 85 (in a normal lifespan) years of sentience and we atheists are fully aware of this amazing reality.
It seems that the only Christians who have thought deeply – and remained Christians – have done so only in an attempt to alleviate their cognitive dissonance; the result, then, is the kind of nonsense that gets trotted out as apologetics, and that is only shallow thinking masquerading as deep.
robertkarma:
Seems to me you’re turning to sour grapes instead of myths for comfort. :)
*sigh*
Why is it when people (usually Christians) talk about other Christians who are not 100% Christ-like (which is impossible according to their dogma, since mankind is “fallen”), they are referred to as being Christian in name only? “No True Scotsman”, anyone?
#1 PZ == RD’s echo chamber (or more prosaically, RD’s sock puppet.) I am not sure what that makes the horde.
#2 That and I will just oozes pride… isn’t that some sort of sin?
Wow. You answered a lot of those. More patience than I would have had. :)
“…The blog … clearly shows that atheists know the truth in their heart”
Statements like these have always baffled me. Even as a christian, I had no problem believing that atheists truly did not believe that god existed.
But, but, but, PZ…
Yer life gets better after yer dead. Don’t you get it? What’s so hard to understand about that?
I’m not sure what confuses me more – that Christians believe in their god, or that they think their god isn’t a complete monster that anyone with an ounce of decency would refuse to worship if they could be convinced he did exist.
While I’d love to be wrong about a god – if that god possessed the few good aspects the Christian god is alleged to possess – I’d most certainly not want the hateful, vengeful, malicious, deceitful, malignant and thoroughly vile scumbag god to exist, unless I had a way of killing it.
If one framed the Christian doctrine as a list of arguments for it’s veracity, it’s mostly appeal to emotion. As if it mattered for the existence or nonexistence of god whether or not I was hoping for an afterlife. Ah well.
As for me, sadly, I cannot say that the prospect life holds that much solace, either – I could never commit myself to Dawkins’ “grandeur in this view of life”-attitude. Many things intrigue me temporarily, but – and this is probably just an expression of my habitual melancholy – at the end of the day, I hold a more Lovecraftian view on life, full of the daily horrors of the commonplace, and a universe mindlessly grinding onward, towards it’s end. In spite of that – or because of it? – I am not afraid of death (to the contrary – I expect to welcome it, if it comes), only of pain.
It would be nice if Ken Ham would actually talk to and listen to atheists instead to sewing up rag dolls and stuffing them with bible verses. A few years after I became an atheist, I did not spend anytime pondering about a deity of any type. About the only time I would think about it would be when other people used their religion as an excuse to limit the rights and actions of people. There was no need for me to remind myself that I did not believe.
What I find ironic is that after becoming a regular participant of this blog, I do spend more time wondering about my atheism then I did in the two decades preceding that. But once more, it is not the daily chant to remind myself that I do not believe. It is to wonder why I ever believed in the first place. And I find that I understand my teenaged self even less then I understand who I am now.
Sometimes I wish I could have the certainty that people like Ken Ham have, it must be some kind of comfort. But I would have to knowingly lie to myself to do so. And it is bad enough knowing that plenty of unacknowledged lies that I cling to.
I believe that he’s referring to one of the previous posts:
and “telling” Jeremiah Stiles that it isn’t death that formed us, but reproduction.
–
The only thing the voice in my heart ever said to me was bum-boom, bum-boom, bum-boom… Yeah, it is kind of repetitive but if it started saying something else, I would know that something is dreadfully wrong.
I must have used the wrong tag ending. I am assuming you can tell where I meant to end the bold. Damned Typo Monster.
Report: It All Some Kind Of Sick Joke
So the christian god has blinded atheists to the gospel, and will burn us in hell forever for not believing what he made us unable to believe by his overt act. A god like that would not be worthy of worship even if it did exist.
@janine (49), same here. “God” has become irrelevant to me, even though I sometimes envy the simple mindset of the faithful (this is not meant derogatively; it’s not their fault, after all) which permits them to cling to such prehistorical patterns of thought. There is some sort of religious impulse in me, still – e.g. when I half-consciously thank “something” for something good happening, or when I complain because something bad happened.
Gah. Too early for a saturday :/
@Rey Fox, thanks :D The Onion still manages to cheer me up, mostly!
Far Ken Ham, still a bacon short of a barbeque.
As everyone knew, the xian ghouls were gathering to feed on Hitchens death and dead body.
Ken Ham is a ghoul!!! Why am I not surprised?
Oh well, a religion that produces monsters, ghouls, and zombies isn’t that appealing to a lot of people, who then flee.
According to the Bible, the apostle Paul was the leading opponent of Christianity: He was killing them, without mercy. God appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, and converted him to Christianity’s most prolific
authorconduit for the Holy Ghost… Paul was pretty eloquent… but nothing like the Hitch. Yet God let Hitch die unconverted.Could it be that even God lacked the eloquence and persuasion to convince/convert the Hitch?.. Or did Christopher simply fail to have made a journey on the correct road to Damascus?
Surely, we must assume that an omniscient, omnipotent deity could convince/convert anyone… thus we must assume that, said omniscient and omnipotent deity, is not omnipresent, and thus relegated to a certain road to a certain Roman province.
What’s that? Oh… He’s supposed to be omnipresent, too?
Well, fuck.
I’m at a loss, then.
Sure. I have proof that the gods exist. Bob the Rain God. I’ll stop belieiving in Bob the Rain God when it stops raining.
Atheists have always gotten along really well with the gods. It’s their follows that cause us huge problems.
There are many xian gods. The fundie OT Sky Monster god, the NT god of love, the modern god of Pantheos, and the up and coming xian Deos hiding behind the Big Bang.
Ham’s Monster god is one that even most xians don’t believe in.
Religion is the most self-centered activity humans ever invented. Nearly every religion says: Our god is the only true, real god. Our sect is the only true sect. We’re special because god made the entire universe just for us. We’re god’s chosen people. We get to spend all eternity with god because we’re so special. Those who disagree with us are doomed. What could possibly be more self-centered than that?
Not to mention the shallow assholes who believe things like, “God was looking out for me this morning, I hit green lights all the way to work!”
While it is great that PZ is leaving plenty of evidence for the historians yet to be born, I suspect that a century from now most people will have trouble understanding the mindset of the Ken Ham followers. I know I struggle to understand where they’re coming from, and I live in their time.
“Scotty Bee: I say we keep praying for him. It is sad.”
Have at it, Scotty! It’ll keep you off the streets anyway.
Huh. So religion is the one that doesn’t hold their hands over their ears and say, “lalala, I’m not going to die but live forever in happy land.”
When I was still a Christian, I heard Penn Jillette on NPR’s “This I Believe,” exploring some of the same ideas- how the belief that there is no god makes life here and now richer and more meaningful, and makes our actions more significant.
At that time, I believed that god existed. But I understood what Penn was saying, easily. And I could see the beauty in what he was saying, and it made me respect atheism as a way of understanding the world more than I had before.
So it IS possible for Christians to understand the atheist way of seeing the world. Religious belief isn’t to blame for Ken Ham and his disciples failing to understand this post; they just aren’t very good readers.
Hah! Kenny boy, you are whistling in the dark. There may be a God but it sure isn’t yours, and I rather think it would prefer an atheist who makes that point to someone, like you, who insists that the physical reality it created isn’t true and that it has the morals of a Bronze-age tyrant.
Yeah, who’s really spent his life spouting blasphemy here, when you get right down to it? :)
Yea, good show with the “this guy is bad, but don’t read his blog. I’ll tell you what he said.” Although Pharyngula was not the original wedge to crack my religiosity, it was the final thrust that ripped it open and let my rationality and atheism free. I’d like to imagine a good portion of the Hamites are at least doubtful, at least not entirely sure about their truths. Those “Why I’m an atheist” type letters may be just what they need to realize and fully drop their religion.
Imagine considering university students adults who entrust their own tertiary education to a university…
Culture shock.
You misunderstand. “The god of this age” is the devil.
In a book about the Middle Ages I once read “People believed in God, but even more in the devil.”
Also, someone please teach Ham the difference between a blog and a blog post.
Ken Ham thinks you’re tempting. Ewww.
Michelle Rose: “…he is responsible for dragging people away from God”.
I came here specifically to learn more about creationist arguments against evolution, and the scientific responses to them. I’ll bet I’m not alone in this, either.
There couldn’t possibly be anything more immoral than what Ken Ham does to children. Ken Ham is a world-class stupid fucking asshole.
Ken Ham: “(Imagine entrusting your kids education to such a professor).”
PZ’s students are extremely lucky. I can’t imagine there being a better biology professor. But for Christian fundamentalists who believe god made everything with its magic wand, it would be a disaster if their sons and daughters were PZ’s students. Their children would find out their parents are idiots.
— Human Ape
Well here we are, come save us. No? Well pray your little heart to exhaustion. No? Well put a post of Ken Ham’s Face Book page then… There ya go, safe an’ sound.
“Thou shalt not lie”
John 2:1-11, water into wine. You think everyone just stared at it?
Dawkins is in “good shape” because your deity does not exist. The tyranny he alludes to is the tyranny of the mass superstitious delusion.
Consider this: if the supernatural does not exist how much of humanities efforts (and time) has been wasted? Do ya’ll see where this would make us a wee bit angry?
I question my atheism daily. Logic and reason applied to the facts of which I am aware continue to lead to the same conclusion: there are no gods, and the Christian god is especially unlikely. If he existed, he would be a monster not worthy of worship.
PZ,
I don’t understand how you take a believer’s genuine belief in hell (as dumb as it is) and turn “The death of a lost person is not a cause of celebration, it is a tragedy” and “I am seriously grieved at the passing of Christopher” into “gloating” and “crowing.”
I know a lot of Christians who are genuinely concerned with my eternal destiny because they actually believe I’m going to hell. I don’t think any of them are gloating over that belief.
Can you explain this?
QFT
Eternal life gives me the heeby-jeebies even more than death does.
I have an extremely low threshold for boredom, and when I’m bored, I rapidly become depressed. From what I’ve felt in church kissing god’s ass, I estimate that I would get bored to tears in the xian version of heaven within approximately 2 minutes tops. And an eternity of bliss would turn a mind to mush just as surely as an eternity of pain. And I don’t see the point or pleasure of continued conscious existence without a functional mind.
People who want eternal life really have no idea what they’re asking for.
I think Poe’s Law just committed seppuku. How can parody compete with this crap?
Beautiful!
One thing though PZ, you missed this gem:
This guy makes a damn good point. I have no frickin’ clue who is Bride is!
I have no problem believing that xians whom I know personally might be genuinely concerned for my fate.
But for a stranger, a public figure they despise ?
I greatly doubt it.
As Tertullian wrote, one of the pleasure of their heaven includes a place where they can observe the suffering of non-believers, people who did things they did not allow themselves to do in their self-righteous lives.
Notice how they use that event to prop up their beliefs, to state their “I told you so’s” to someone who can’t even answer them, to implicitely threaten those who share his beliefs ? Hypocrisy and shadenfreude in action.
We are not the only ones who say that there is no afterlife. The Judeo-Christian Bible says so too.
Ecclesiastes Chapter Nine, Verses Four to Ten.
I’m fascinated by the fact that Ham has followers at all, but at the same time I’m reassured that, in these dark economic times, the indoor helmet and drool bib industries must be thriving.
I haven’t gotten that far in the Bible yet, but I’ve read Exodus, where God repeatedly “harden(s) the Pharaoh’s heart” so that he would continue to resist the Hebrew people. God, it would seem, loves banging his action figures together.
Well, what do you think enables them to be such bad readers? I do believe that you understood Penn Gillette’s outlook on life, but I think you did in spite of religion.
Glen Davidson at #4:
“Oh say, Ham, why do you and pigs share evidence of a common ancestor?”
I’m guessing because his ancestors were also piglet molesters? Sins of the fathers and all that.
Now this notion of a final judgment has always struck me as being terribly flawed.
If God is omnipotent and all-knowing, then why would he need to judge anyone? Surely, he would know the verdict ahead of time (based on his narrow standards), so wouldn’t this make the final judgment little more than a show trial — a chance to see the proverbial worm squirm under the hot lights?
Moreover, God certainly could not be considered an impartial judge. Imagine a trial where the judge is also the prosecutor? Could you count on getting a fair shake?
*
A dated, but insightful, quotation:
—Woolsey Teller
*
God dispatching another sinner to hell:
Click here to see the horrible visage that PZ Meyer will witness on Judgment Day.
Our infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful god’s ego is so fragile that he goes to pieces like a small child over the slightest insult.
Oh, if only the mighty creator of the universe were not so impotent and defenseless that he needed the help of comparative microbes like us to shield him from criticism.
We frown upon pettiness and spitefulness in others, but we cherish these flaws in our god!
A Christian’s idea of paradise on earth:
Click here.
It is sad really – all those fearful theists jumping at the imagined shadow of their non-existant deity, and their greatest fear is ironically the fear of emancipation. Nothing frightens them more than the fact that the complete lack of evidence for any deity means that their god almost certainly doesn’t exist, and most definately doesn’t exist as depicted in their
nasty, bigotted book of fairy talesbible.Wow, the projection is strong in Ham, and several of his sheeple followers. We aren’t the ones who insist on believing the ludicrous without evidence, after all. I find it particularly amusing that these most oblivious of godbots also seem to believe that their delusion offers them access to amazing, psychic mind-reading powers. How else could they claim to be privy to the ‘true’ innermost thoughts of atheists? Other than simply lying about it of course, but surely no theist would ever stoop to lying for jeebus, what with the biblical injunction against bearing false witness…
… would they, Ham?
The one thing Hitch would like is the continual jabbing at the credulous.
The irony in this phrase has caused me to die a little. Now I am reminded of why I can’t read creotard sites. I am the one refusing to see an unpleasant reality. REALLY? Holy fucking shit.
Now I continue my fight against death by avoiding pits of flaming stupid for the rest of my day.
–
Imagine entrusting your kids education to such a professor
Every time a creationist troll says this, I get a little tingle of pride at actually being PZ’s student.
I must say, however, that I am an adult, not a kid, and that my parents probably don’t care, since they already lost my soul.
O please o please o please yes Ken Ham, do send your acolytes over to Pharyngula. Consider it a Christmas present to them … and to us. That’s right, it will strengthen their faith. Really. And we might convert! Think of the missionary opportunity. Win, win!
I see this sort of argument a lot — “you wouldn’t bother to argue against me unless you knew I was right” — and I have a hard time imagining situations where it’s actually true.
The closest I come is in visualizing church services or spiritual fellowships where people keep incessantly chanting “We believe, we believe, we believe” in a way that suggests that they know that without the group re-enforcement and reminders that they DO believe they’re going to slip into not believing at the slightest little provocation.
They’re projecting like a home theater system.
Mark #75
Your friends and relations may not gloat about you going to Hell. I have no doubt they feel sorrowful about your pending yet fictitious doom. However the circle of those near and dear to you are not the only Christians in the world. There are large numbers of Christians, mainly of the fundamentalist persuasion, who think one of the premier attractions of Heaven is the opportunity to watch those in Hell being tortured. And yes, they gloat about this.
Ugh, no. Last time all they did was blather presuppositionalist crap over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Sastra:
Indeed. I suppose Ham is too dense to see how this sentiment hoists him by his own petard. If motivation to argue that someone else is wrong is sufficient evidence that the person arguing actually believes that the person they are arguing against is right, then Ham must believe that evolution and atheism are true and have more doubts about the Bible than the more lax, non-literalist breeds of Christian. If arguing isn’t sufficient evidence that one secretly believes the other side, then I guess his only support for the idea that “atheists secretly know Christians are right” is that the Bible says so. I wonder which of the two idiocies Ham would personally prefer?
The Ham-ster may not have intended this, but whenever I hear an Xian invoke Romans Chapter 1, I hear them trying to convince themselves that their groveling, fearful, hateful way of life is justified. Romans 1 is one of the ugliest chapters in the whole stupid book. It assures Christians that besides “teh gays”, slanderers, atheists, disobedient children, evil inventors, gossipers, debaters, dissenters, and many other kinds of reprobates, are well and truly worthy of death. Not some vague reference to divine judgement, but actual death. Paul seems to be petting the egos of the faithful while trying to put fear into those slipping away from the fold through sheer humanness. And the Ham-ster just curls up in Paul’s comfortable palm and lets himself be petted.
It’s probably not a deliberate sentiment on Ham’s part here, but if he takes the Bible literally, which we we can be assured he does, then he believes that Christopher Hitchens, PZ, indeed most of us here at Pharyngula are deserving of death. So we non-believers are hopeless, lost, living in darkness? Imagine living a life where you see a globeful of people, except a few at your church, who are deserving of death. How grim and dark a world? How can you glorify a creator of such a world? How can you feel such enmity to others, yet call it love because you pray for them? How solipsistic to believe that you’re not one of those who deserve death?
I don’t accept his “how sad for them” passive-aggressive tone. Like all the others Ham is probably wetting his cage with glee than Hitch is gone.
I say we raise a glass to Hitchens and reality, and leave Ham to his dark ages hate.
You’re thinking of the criminal daddy’s boy Eric Hovind and his partner in crime Sye TenBruggencate, plus a gang of their followers whom they incited behind the scenes.
I don’t recollect we’ve seen any of Ken Ham’s little nobodies here. I don’t think they’ll be much fun, though – or at least, fun only in the sense that correcting first year English papers is fun.
Hey guys and gals! Its Jason Murdock here (from the Ken Ham Facebook thread). I just wanted to state that I am an atheist, and am by no means part of the Ken Ham or the Genesis Crew. My comment of “reproduction Jeremiah, reproduction” was in response to a previous comment in which he said that Evolution was based only on death, or some such statement. I wanted to state that (and do, please, correct me if I am mistaken) evolution is as much more about reproduction than mere death and destruction.
Sorry it got mistaken as a comment from an adherent of the AIG nutjub club, easy done, that is the nature of Facebook I suppose! Far from it, I run a very small (but very dedicated!) Atheist organisation in Northern Ireland – which faces its own obstacle but takes constant inspiration from the free thinkers of today. (Atheism: Northern Ireland for anyone interested, or from that area)
Anyhow, just wanted to clear my name and say I’m a big fan of PZ and freethoughtblogs and wish you all well in your days!
Jason.
Oh! Hee!
Damn, though – I liked the strange meaninglessness of the decontextualized “Reproducing Jeremiah, reproducing.” Almost wish you hadn’t clarified.
:)
Hey, Jason Murdock, welcome! Stick around if you’ve got the time …
Glad you stopped in to clarify your answer to Ken Ham’s idiot Jeremiah. You’re correct about reproduction. Not that it makes any difference to the Hammite creationists, of course. To them, reproduction is as magic as death – see, the mommy and daddy provide the “material” but god swoops in and provides the “soul”, and then gets it back at death. Nothing changes. Certainly there’s no such thing as god-forsaken evolution!
To the Big Ham’s credit, he doesn’t forbid atheists and “evolutionists” from posting on his page; but it’s still a surprise to see a response from someone rational like you interposed into the craziness.
I have most of them pages such as Creation Ministries and Ken Ham ect just to stay informed and up to date on what nonsense they are spreading. Although sometimes it is too much to take and I must interject something, even if it is as snarky as the latter comment I made! : )
Isn’t it funny how the religious admit that atheists know the truth (there is no god) and yet continue to lap up the Jesus bullshit.
A few years ago, when PZ posted and insulted Ham, there were many responses from angry Hamfans telling PZ that he was mean.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/in_which_i_have_hurt_ken_hams.php
adamatkins @78: The Bride would be the Church. With a capital ‘c’.
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And then punished not only Pharaoh with the loss of his first-born, but all the people of Egypt as well.
(And the words “fair and balanced” leap to mind.)
–
@75: By no means all, and maybe not even all that many Christians are like that, but there are a significant number of them that definitely gloat at the thought of eternal punishment for unbelievers. Despite his profession of “love” for Hitchens, it’s really hard to read Rick Warren’s comment as anything but thinly disguised gloating.
When Carl Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould died, there were LOTS of comments about their being in Hell now. And while few of them would actually admit they were happy at the idea, it wasn’t hard to read between the lines.
When Gould died, there were a bunch of comments along the lines “He’s a creationist now,” in the same vein as Warren’s “He knows the Truth now.”
Check out some choice quotes at: http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm .
Thank you for republishing the bigoted comments of this bunch of losers. They are despicable and morally rotten.
I know some Christians that are sincere. Very few and far between but their sincerity is almost endearing. They don’t try to impose their beliefs on others and they truly live what they believe.
Those Christians would not dare write bullshit like this because they recognize it as what it is: spiteful, condescending bigotry.
You know when reading these comments that they would like nothing better than to sit in judgment of atheists everywhere alongside their vile god. I am so glad it’s not going to happen. It’s too bad that none of us is going to be able to tell the other “I told you so”. I am pretty sure of that.
Unlike them, I got to have a trial run of this thing called death. Not once, but 3 different times. It was nothing but a long sleep. one moment I was alive, the next I wasn’t but to me it felt like being in a dreamless sleep. It’s only once you come out of it and the medics tell you that you were dead for several minutes that the fear grasps you and the pain returns. But one thing for sure: there was no tunnel, no light, no deceased pets, no dead relatives, not much of anything, I am afraid.
Hey, I’d love it if upon my death I had a chance to say Hi to my dad and reunite with all my pets. I am not sure I would really want to meet (and spend eternity) with all my relatives, but it would be nice to see grandma again.
But it’s not going to happen and me wishing it is not going to change that.
well you all look the same to us, remember?
Another comment from the post
I don’t know anyone who would do that with jeebus….
Ohhhhh Sh*t those Catholics ruin everything again.
So from growing up in a fundamentalist home (the kind that we didn’t celebrate any holiday except thanksgiving and that’s because it’s the only one that did not have any pagan overtones to it) my favorite argument to those who try to place a person in hell or heaven is to quote the bible verse that states “judge not, lest thou be judged” and the reactions to that are generally fairly amusing.
> Imagine entrusting your kids education to such a professor
Please! I would be proud.
I’m still trying to understand how believing this is the only life we get is somehow depressing and nihilistic.
The best I can conclude is that it’s depressing and nihilistic for folks who can’t imagine for themselves what they can do with their lives. I expect that would be intimidating: to be faced with all that freedom and not believe you have the skill or talent or brains to make something of it. That would be terrifying.
Perhaps this is why they fall into religions. Someone else tells them what to do and think and feel, and it’s such a relief to not have to worry about it anymore.
Meanwhile, back here in Reality, I find the belief in an afterlife profoundly depressing and nihilistic. All these people making utterly pointless hecatombs of their time and effort to an imaginary person, instead of spending that time and energy on making their immediate world better. Feh, even if they were just making their own lives a little better, that would be a net gain for humanity.
Speaking of nihilistic get a load of that site. (Though it’s a xian site that apparently somehow thinks that the idea of “hell” is one that has “corrupted” the church as opposed to it in real life being invented by them, it’s still a good sampling of the kind of “love” that xians have shown non-believers through the ages)