I grew up Catholic; my mother was a moderately religious Catholic and my father was a totally disengaged Lutheran, so Mom was more-or-less in charge of my religious upbringing. I attended Catholic elementary and high schools, mostly because the public schools in my city were so horrible. So I did get a fairly thorough religious education, but it was a distinctly liberal one; in the ’60s and ’70s California Catholics, and their schools, were definitely liberal. They taught me about social justice, and the “sanctity of life”. The former stuck with me. I first started questioning the latter in high school, because I couldn’t see a small bundle of cells as a human being, and I watched an aunt die bravely but horribly painfully of cancer. I began to see abortion and euthanasia as not universal evils.
In college I attended the local student Catholic center for awhile, then got busy and slacked off. I met my future husband, who came from a Nazarene background (though he wasn’t particularly religious) and he despised all things Catholic; he’d been taught from childhood that Catholics were all ritual and not True Christians. So we were non-religious together though the rest of college.
During all this time, from childhood, I was suffering from mild, undiagnosed depression. After we graduated and married, we started attending a non-denominational Christian church. Oh, how that church experience fed my depression! Every Sunday I was told what a sinner I was, how unlovable I was, how it was only by God’s grace that I could be saved. By this time the depression was progressing, and I was telling myself that I was no good; hearing it from the pulpit just confirmed it. By the time Husband insisted we stop going to church because every sermon made me cry, I was deeply depressed. There were other contributing factors to deepening my depression, too, especially work, where goals were always set that no one could achieve. I was baffled as to why they didn’t fire me. In truth, I was one of the highest-performing engineers in the department. But I couldn’t believe that then.
Finally, when I became unable to work, I was diagnosed with and treated for depression. It took awhile, but I began to see myself and the world in a reasonable way. My successes became things to celebrate, not deprecate, and my failures not catastrophic, but something to be learned from. I started re-thinking everything, including my religious beliefs. Gradually I began to wonder why I believed in a 2000-year-old collection of stories from ancient sheepherders, and why I believed in such a malevolent, narcissistic, sexist God. But I still had a soft spot in my heart for the death and resurrection of Jesus.
What really broke it for me was when I read a book (can’t remember the title) on archaeology that provided a reasonable alternative to Jesus’ death and resurrection, suggesting that his friends conned the Romans into letting him off the cross before he was dead and leaving medicines for him in the tomb. Then it was they, and no angel, who came and rescued him a few days later.
That was the end of my religious belief. It helped, too, that my husband had migrated to atheism a few years before.
Now I’m a reasonably happy atheist, glad that I no longer have to worry about an afterlife, and determined to make the most of the life I’ve got. That determination led me to abandon my original career, take care of my parents during their last years, and then go back to grad school (MS) to take up a new career… which, at age 52, is a very scary proposition. But once I figured out I’d regret NOT doing it on my deathbed, it was something I had to do. I want to leave with no regrets.
Oh, and I’m more of an advocate for social justice than ever.
Karen Locke
United States
uuummm
WTF????
do these comments go with this Atheist Post?
LOL, comments got attached to wrong post. Unless… wait, could it be… surely not?! Aaaaaaggghhh!!!
Ia, ia, Krnthulu ftaghn!
Glitches guys. You must have patience. Or maybe we have to talk about Cephalopods all the time now.
I, for one, welcome … the … our … new cephalopoop … whatever … um …
yay?
I see that all your comments are from the transparent squid thread: that must be one of those little glitches from upgrading the server.
Karen, it sounds as if you had a long and tough road to get where you are. I’m glad you’re reasonably happy. It’s brave of you to go back to university–good luck!
suggesting that his friends conned the Romans into letting him off the cross before he was dead and leaving medicines for him in the tomb.
A simpler explanation is that they made up the bit about Jesus resurrecting. All the Gospels were written well after the fact, and in any case none of their accounts suggest an appearance in front of any large number of disinterested witnesses. (Curiously, in some versions Jesus appears to his followers and they don’t recognize him at first. ???)
I too am a survivor of catholic school and can attest to the painful ordeal it was to abandon it.
for a long time I tried to make rational sense out of the christ story and the other things in the christian religion but it was just a hopeless mess. It just does not fit in the world as we know it. Nothing is verified to have actually happened no one knows what was intended by any of it. After all this time what we are left with is only authority, some one tells you what to think and they all say something different. So I just gave up. The scientific understanding of reality is much more exciting and has the advantage of matching what is observed.
uncle frogy
Several years ago I read about this idea, which assumes there really was a Jeebus preacher man.
Jeebus worked for the government and that’s why he said Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.
The normal procedure was to tie the criminal to the cross, not nail him to it. Jeebus was hanging on the cross, having a wonderful time, then the crowd was ordered to leave, then with the cooperation of the Roman government he was taken down, untied, and then he hid for three days. Then he appeared to his gullible friends who were impressed that he rose from the dead. Then Jeebus got out of town, never to be seen again.
Another idea is Jeebus really was the son of a Magical Master of the Universe, and he really did magically become a zombie but without the terrible smell. That’s what millions of Christian idiots believe. Cowards are willing to believe any supernatural bullshit if it makes them feel good.
Karen, kudos for going back to school!
A side note on the resurrection. From memory, the bible mentions some 3,000 people who became christians because they saw Jesus risen from the dead. It sounds a lot, but I suspect it was a fairly small proportion of the population of Jerusalem at the time. Maybe about the same proportion of people who believe that Elvis might still be alive. (OK, probably a bigger proportion than Elvis believers, but we’re supposed to have universal education here.)
OK, I should have done this before.
The population of 1st century Jerusalem was about 30,000 (http://www.bible-history.com/jerusalem/firstcenturyjerusalem_smith_s_bible_dictionary.html) more at festivals.
I can’t find a decent google answer as to how many of them converted just after the resurrection, and I don’t have time to read the acts of the apostles (better things to do!) so I’ll stick with 3,000. That’s 10% convinced, 90% not convinced.
And the (very good) video about racism and privilege quotes 12% of Americans as believing that Elvis might still be alive.
See what I mean?
@jheartney#21–thank you, thank you, thank you for using “disinterested” correctly. It has been exactly one year, 57 days and 2 hours since I came across the previous correct usage of that word. Not that I’m counting or anything. The way things are going, some people probably thought you used it incorrectly.
Karen–thank you for your story. I’m glad you’ve overcome the depression and I’ve often wondered why more Christians don’t feel more down with all the negativity showered on them–how they’re sinners and even just thinking bad thoughts can be sinful.
I remember having feelings of depression my junior year in university. I went to a counselor and it was an incredible eye-opener. She helped me realize that it was silly to put myself down for not getting the best grades all the time when I was getting very good ones. Perhaps the single most important thing she helped me do was to say “Thank you,” when complimented instead of hemming and hawing about how I should have done better. It seems so simple but it wasn’t something I was aware of at that time.
Good luck with your new studies and career.
Could it be this book, The Passover Plot?
Karen, it sounds to me as if you read The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield, which came out in 1965. I read it in high school and found it both disturbing and intriguing. I also recall my mother being present when I plucked it off the paperback carousel next to the magazine rack at the local supermarket and the expression on her face. However, it still took more than a dozen years for my apostasy to fully ripen. My exposure to Schonfield’s boldness surely helped.
While it’s obviously not such a tall story as the resurrection itself, there’s no reason at all to believe this (assuming it really is in the Bible – I haven’t looked). Who would have been counting? How? Why would the number (if it was ever calculated in the first place) have been preserved free from exaggeration in the decades before the first of the gospels was written? Actually, IIRC, the number of “witnesses to the resurrection” usually pulled out of the theological arse is 500. The claim generally made is that we have 500 (or whatever) eyewitnesses, so it must be true. Actually, we have 0 eyewitnesses, only unknown people writing pseudonymously decades later claiming there were lots of eyewitnesses. As it happens, I myself died and resurrected myself a few years ago, and I assure you there were over 100,000 eyewitnesses. Don’t believe me? Well, you weren’t there, were you?
IIRC, The Passover Plot hypothesized a plan in which Jesus got himself crucified and then, while hanging out up there, a co-conspirator dosed him with drugs (the “vinegar to drink mingled with gall”) to help him fake death.
All of this scripted to “fulfill prophecy”, including resurrection.
But then that soldier jabbed him with the spear – to finish the execution process before Sabbath began at sundown – and Big Jay was then in no condition to follow through on the rest of the scheme.
This made a big impression on teenage me as well – even though further study (Bart Ehrman, G.A. Wells, et al) convinced me that Schonfield built his scenario on a much too literalist interpretation.
So now the first few comments make no sense at all.
Gorgeous.
That’s what I’ve often heard too. It’s mentioned here, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8:
I don’t think that particular tall tale is anywhere else in the NT, but I could be wrong. In any case, it is written some twenty years after the alleged events, which is generally not the best time to write what is supposed to be an accurate eyewitness account. That he was in Asia Minor, writing to people in Greece, also makes it so that no one involved had any practical way of verifying the story with those in or around Jerusalem who were supposed to be the “eyewitnesses.”
It also looks like Paul didn’t read the gospels too closely. This account doesn’t agree on who supposedly saw him first, compared to the gospels which also don’t agree with one another. It’s also odd that Paul refers to twelve disciples (in addition to Cephas [Peter]), when at that point in the gospels it only went up to eleven, because Judas was kicked off the island or something. So, these people can’t keep their own stories straight, can’t count, didn’t care whether they were telling the truth, thought the truth was whatever crazy bullshit came out of their mouths*, or all of the above. I think all of the above is a pretty safe bet.
*Exhibit A: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:
YAY FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
Thank you all for the encouraging comments.
Karen Locke, aka geocatherder
Completely unnecessary explanation given that the gospels themselves do not even agree on what happened after the Passion/Crucifixion. An explanation that actually fits historical and archaeological evidence would be…
Simpler still: They made up the bit about Jesus.
Hi Karen
Depression is a dark illness, which can be caused by chemical imbalances, or by negative thoughts of hopelessness that don’t appear to go away. Often, anti-depressants and cognitive therapy will assist you, but the battle is ongoing.
I grew up in a Presbyterian Church, and am an active Christian, currently attending a large church in Australia. I would like to encourage you that there are answers to the questions you face, particularly about the swoon theory, made popular by Barbara Thiering, but originating in the nineteenth century.
Pierce R Butler in comment #15 alludes to a solution when he states: “But then that soldier jabbed him with the spear – to finish the execution process before Sabbath began at sundown.” This is found in John 19:34, where it states that ‘the soldier pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out’. This was written by John, the closest student of Jesus, who was there with Jesus’ mother to the end. If you look up medical journals, you will find that blood only flows into the chest cavity when the heart has stopped pumping blood around the body. In other words, it indicates clinical death. If there is no resuscitation with around the first hour after the heart has stopped, brain damage would occur and it would be extremely hard to revive Jesus, despite any so-called ‘anesthesia’ to deaden the pain.
I laughed at ‘human apes’ comment #8, which stated
” A simpler explanation is that they made up the bit about Jesus resurrecting. All the Gospels were written well after the fact…”
This is an interesting theory, Mr Ape, and also the theory that men were not nailed to a cross. Mr Ape has obviously not studied the historical and archaeological accounts of Roman crucifixion, which can be verified in other non-Christian or Jewish sources. The thought about the Bible being written long after the fact does not hold water either, because there were two historical facts that occurred which, if the gospels or the letters written to various churches by Doctor Luke, Paul, Peter, John and James after the first century CE, would have surely included. These are the destruction of the temple in 70CE, and the persecution of Christians by Nero in 64CE. Now Doctor Luke, the historian, wrote about Porcius Festus in Acts 24:27. Historically, we know that independent historical sources apart from the Bible state that Festus was a procurator between 55 and 59CE.
So, Karen, from the discussion above, we see that a) the swoon theory does not hold water and b) some of your fellow atheists have got their facts wrong about historical facts that occurred and that there is good evidence that the Gospels and Acts were written no more than forty years after Jesus’ death – well within the life of Jesus’ students and for people to have lived into old age. This is to show that you have to be careful whom you read.
By the way, I would love you to read Psalm 23:4 in the New Living Translation version. It states:
“Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will not be afraid, for you are close beside me.”
This says that God wants to walk with you and comfort you during the dark hours of depression you face. He is real, though you may close your eyes and deny His reality. He loves you, and wants you to see that, when life appears bleak, and your mind is being bombarded with dark thought, He can comfort you if you will allow Him. I’m praying for you.