Muslim women in Muslim countries are at the mercy of the theocrats. Marzieh Vafamehr is an Iranian actress who made a movie describing the plight of modern men and women in a country with a medieval theocratic government — and as if Iran really honestly wanted to demonstrate that it actually was as bad or worse than the movie showed, they have now sentenced her to 90 lashes and a year in jail.
Jeez. Muslim women ought to flee to the West, then. Not so fast: it seems we aren’t so welcoming. Irum Abbassi was trying to take a plane from San Diego to San Jose when she was kicked off for looking Muslim.
Irum Abbassi alleges that on March 13, Southwest Airlines employees unlawfully removed her from a flight from San Diego to San Jose, where she was headed to finish research for her Master’s thesis. According to the complaint, Abbassi “was readily identifiable as Muslim by what she wore: a long shirt, pants, sweater and hijab, or Islamic headscarf.” She was detained at security for a second screening, but was allowed to board.
When boarding, Abbassi says she was on the phone with a Verizon representative in order to activate her smartphone. When the plane was getting ready to depart, Abbassi alleges she told the representative “I’ve got to go.”
Soon after, there was an announcement that an “administrative delay” would hold up the flight, at which point a TSA agent came on board and asked Abbassi to get off. From the complaint:
Once at the jetway the TSA agent explained to [Abbassi] that the flight attendant believed that she had been acting suspiciously. Although the flight attendant admittedly could not adequately hear [Abbassi], she reported that [Abbassi] might have uttered ‘It’s a go’ into her cell phone.
Shortly after, the complaint alleges, the TSA agent determined that Abbassi was not a security risk, and said she could re-board the plane. But at the gate she was told that the captain would not let her board because the crew was “uncomfortable” with her on the plane.
It always seems to be Southwest Airlines, doesn’t it? What’s the matter with that company?
At least she wasn’t whipped for her temerity. I think we should aim a little higher than being able to say “Come to America, Muslima! We usually won’t lash you with a whip!”
Appalling. The fundie Muslims are happy to impose theocratic governments, and our fundies and racists are happy to make life miserable for the ones trying to escape theocracy.
America: The most racist country in the world, and proud of it!
Southwest Airlines: #1 in Customer Service!*
* except among Muslims, gays, and obese people
Great. That’s just great. It is nice to know that the flight crew was on the look-out for any dangerous looking Muslim radical and that they felt they could act swiftly without any real reason other than “hey, she looks Muslim!”
And the sadder part is that even that behavior is about a million times better than the actions of the Iranian government. It takes a special kind of backwards moron to make the bigots here look better by comparison.
This aside, I don’t have room to list all of the things that are wrong with Southwest. Customer service, ugly lobbying against an intercity rail, pretty much every bad thing you can imagine.
I’m not kidding. I live here. They are really nasty.
Algernon! Another desert dweller! (Possibly.) What region are you in?
“It always seems to be Southwest Airlines, doesn’t it? What’s the matter with that company?”
Hey, at least she saved lots of money on bag fees.
ZZZZZZAAAHHH!!!
I’m pretty confident that whoever is next to try and blow up a plane will not look like a typical Muslim. How stupid do people think the terrorists are?
I know. I don’t get it. You’d think american men would be saying “Hey, over here! I won’t beat you or anything! I’ll listen to what you have to say, respect your opinion, not even corner you in an elevator! And I have *cookies*!”
I’m figuring that even at their “uppity-est” most muslim women would be an allahsend to those guys who feel threatened by women. It’s not hard to see what kind of world the male supremacists would create, if they could, is it?
My mum’s family are butchers who specialise in pork products. So, is it a violation of the law of conservation of irony for me to be disgusted by events like this?
Sarcasm aside, I really am disgusted. This sort of thing is just not on.
@Phil,
It would really only matter if you forced people to eat pork, or punished them for not doing so.
Unfortunately, America’s immigration laws are sufficiently shitty that many women fleeing from régimes like this, even if they make it to the US, end up getting deported to their home countries. In this case, Vafamehr would, in theory, be able to claim asylum under the Refugee Act of 1980 – but claiming asylum is no picnic. (The government does not fund legal advice or translation services for would-be applicants; unless they have money, or are lucky enough to be able to find a lawyer or non-profit law clinic who will help them pro bono, they have to figure out the system for themselves. And if a potential asylum-seeker is picked up by ICE before xe has a chance to file an affirmative asylum claim, xe can be placed in removal proceedings before an immigration judge.)
America: We’ve replaced our whips with Tasers*!
*Also, pepper spray and the occasional broomhandle in the butt.
*sigh* Shit like this is why I always shave before I fly. “Random” security checks, my ass.
There ought to be a rule that whenever one passenger is removed from a flight for something like this, all passengers are removed. They can all get back on the plane when the suspect is cleared or formally arrested.
There’s a significant mormon influence at Southwest airlines.
David Neeleman cofounded Morris Air, which he sold to Southwest Airlines. He also worked on the Executive Planning Committee for Southwest Airlines. He is most well-known for founding JetBlue Airlines. Neeleman attributes his success in business to habits and salesmanship tactics he learned as a Mormon missionary.
Southwest Airlines advertises flights that take travelers to Old Las Vegas Mormon Fort State Historic Park, to the San Diego Mormon Temple, to the Boise Mormon temple, etc. Here’s one example:
http://travel.southwest.com/travel/thingsToDoDetails.html?thingsToDoId=198708
In 2009, Southwest Airlines kicked a woman off a flight for wearing a mini skirt.
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/braun/20070905-9999-1m5braun.html
Part of the anti-gay funds mormons spent during their Prop 8 campaign went to Southwest Airlines. They got caught, and had to report the expenditures.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11666895
I guess ‘flying whilst Muslim’ according to the TSA is now in the same sort of category as ‘driving whilst black’ is according to the cops.
@Aquaria
Totally not fair. America’s tag line would be closer to “America: Not THE most racist country in the world, so quit yer bitchin’ before we turn the hoses on you!”
Is Southwest basing their anti-terrorism training on movies or something? Real terrorists don’t have to give the camera, or their partner, a dramatic stare and equally dramatically say “It’s a go”, “let’s do this thing” or “jippie kay yay great satan!” before doing whatever they plan to do. They just, you know, do it.
What a Maroon @ 11
No need to worry about that. I actually have friends who are vegan, and who know my relatives are butchers – which probably violates conservation of irony in itself! ;)
Randomfactor @ 15
Agreed.
[OT]
I can’t help but correct that into yippie kay yay mother fucker.
(signed: die-hard fan of Die Hard)
Sorry.
I suppose the other passengers could all start standing up and saying “I’m Spartacus!” “Allahu Akbar!” “If *he doesn’t fly, none of us fly!” But we’d have to, you know, overcome our own xenophobia to do something like that.
#2 Aquaria: I think it’s downright adorably cute that anyone could think America is in the running for Most Racist Country in the World! Not that it doesn’t have a big problem with it; I grew up in Louisiana after all, and have seen more than any person should. But as a man living in Japan, who just got back from a trip to England/ France, all I can do is laugh.
It’s a no-brainer that if someone occupies two seats, she (it’s usually a female in my experience) should pay for two seats.
Emphasis mine. Seriously, it might be more ridiculous only with the flight attendant saying that she actually had her back turned to Abbassi, but read her lips when she uttered those words.
Hopefully that doesn’t turn out to be a misplaced comma.
It is, thankfully, not. I had to consciously put the comma there to avoid the joke. Maybe I should’ve left it as it was.
Uh…have you dealt with any other airline lately? Southwest is actually better than a lot of them…
Unfortunately she was wearing the religious accoutrements of the most radicalized, violent, medieval, religion in the world. A religion that has gained a reputation for extraordinarily bad plane manners. Just the sight of a veil or hijab is enough to send any good Christian (or Mormon) into a hissy fit. Comparing “driving whilst Black” to “flying whilst Muslim” is not exactly accurate as Black people do not have a reputation for purposely detonating bombs in vehicles or driving them into buildings.
As more and more Muslims populate the US, I really don’t look forward to catering to any Islamic bullshit, isn’t it bad enough dealing with Christian bullshit? At least one can criticize Christians with out fearing for one’s life.
That’s not unfortunate. It’s unfortunate that she got subjected to unwarranted harassment because of her religion. Your statement makes it sounds like she’s at fault for belonging to that religion (or not hiding it by wearing different clothes).
I’m not an American, but from what I’ve noticed in the press, the more Muslims populate the US (not that it’s as large a number as it is implied) the more everyone gets to deal with Christian bullshit.
Only because they aren’t used as much, seriously. They’re not international. Yeah, I think trying to completely block progress and keep this area dependent on dying industries ranks up there though.
David,
so let’s hear it, how Japan is more racist than the US… have you ever lived in the US and seen US racism with your own eyes? And as you were talking about France, things aren’t exactly peachy there either…
(of course xenophobia and racism partially overlap, but might I suggest that in Japan, the former is stronger than the latter)
@Beatrice I do think it’s unfortunate that she is a Muslim. I also think it’s unfortunate she got harassed. Both suck.
I also have heard about the behavior of Muslims in the UK, The Netherlands, France…all of Europe, and I do not look forward to that kind of bullying in the name of Allah behavior in the US. As I said, one delusional group of fanatics is enough. If they could all just be Amish…
Bizarre! When I flew on Southwest in the 70s their stewardesses wore Hotpants!
Let’s hope not. I hope that the version with the missing comma will remain untrue, even after your flight. I also hope you do not find yourself missing a colon or period as a result of your trip. Best of luck!
@sfisher:
You mean she was dressed like an evangelical Christian American military officer?
The British can be just as bad.
A few years ago a charter flight from Spain was delayed when passengers objected two people on the flight speaking Arabic. The demanded that they be removed from the flight.
The airline to its shame removed the two Arabic speaking passengers, rather than tell those who were complaining that if they did not sit down, shut and up and do up their seatbelts the only people who would be removed from the plane was them.
The two Arabic speakers were allowed on the next flight. At no time did the airport staff, or the airline staff consider them to be suspicious.
I get most of my news though the Yahoo news feeds. If the details of this story pisses you off, I beg of you, do not read the comments after the story. Sometimes I weep at being an American.
Gee PZ I was having a good day. Now my brain just says “fuck the world”.
Oh ya, and fuck deepak Chopthefuckwhatever.
And the ACS
And bus companies
And hotel/golf clubs
And school boards
And, well, just fuck the world.
Then the Amish would have all the political clout and would probably be more inclined to try to wield it. Same story, different characters.
That’s what they think we think!
Always a step ahead or behind, only you can’t tell which.
@24
Under Canadian law, it is a no-brainer that one person = one fare and it is up to the airline to ensure the passenger can be seated properly. Here it is illegal to charge someone a double fare just because their body is slightly larger than the seats are designed for.
Can I just say that it fucking bugs me when people refer to women as “females”? I swear, I can almost see the offender sneering as they type the word.
Oh yeah, and fuck your fatphobic anecdata.
Here’s my counter to the fat-females-on-a-plane anecdata: the only time I sat next to someone who was so large that I had to leave the armrest up and allow my fellow passenger to flow, partially, into my seating area, my seat mate was a male.
I would never even think of using that event as the basis to claim that it is mostly over-sized men who only pay for one seat when they should pay for two.
And, for what its worth, it didn’t really bother me to give the large man another six inches of space. Big frigging deal.
You haven’t been reading this blog very long, have you sfisher? Let me be the first to remind you that people have recieved death threats for not treating communion wafers properly: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
Go read up on this incident before saying that criticizing Christians is just fine and dandy, and they would never do anything to hurt anyone. This is by no means the only example–there are plenty of cases where people have actually been killed for not following their Christian neighbors’ beliefs (think of abortion providers being murdered). But I thought I’d direct you to a case that was covered extensively on this blog, that is over something as trivial as a cracker.
This is gender neutral. It is fat people.
Whatever you do, please don’t use made-up gender pronouns for people unless they asked you to. It’s really, really rude. In english we have perfectly good indeterminant-gender pronouns: They, them, their, theirs. We’ve had it for over five hundred years.
There are many other fictional and political and whatever, but unless the someone you’re speaking about specifically requested those: Don’t use them.
While most people are fine and happy with he and she and you don’t normally have to ask – stick with the ones they use themselves. It’s easy.
I didn’t know someone would have to stand up and say that fictional gender pronouns are insulting to the non-cisgendered who don’t select that specific set.
And you specified fat females as the focus of your scorn.
We defended all fat people and specifically fat women since you singled them out.
Get it?
Of course not…
Funny you should mention the Amish!
You know the time I got the most crap traveling? I’m not usually Plain, but I have a full set of gear. I had to travel, and bring it with me not long ago. The bonnet crushes easily if it’s put in a bag, so I put it on my head. I also dressed the rest of the way to match – meaning I was wearing a bonnet, a long-sleeved knee length dress and thick stockings with mary janes. I looked, all told, Amish (I am, for the record, not Amish) to someone who isn’t an expert in Amish or Plain dress.
The crap I got? ENDLESS. The TSA harassed me about the bonnet (I took it off willingly and put it through the scanner), random people implied that I was stupid, didn’t speak English or that I didn’t have any money. The stewardess was shocked when I asked for the alcohol list and even more shocked when I offered my credit card to pay for it.
Now, I have ZERO sympathy for the misogynists in ANY religion. But seriously. You can’t tell a terrorist by their clothes. In fact, I’d guess that a terrorist would make a point of dressing as “normal” as possible, just to allay suspicion.
No, black people have a reputation (also known as a pernicious, damaging, racist stereotype) for being drug-dealing gun-running criminals.
Idiot.
For those who aren’t aware, Southwest was the airline that kicked off Kevin Smith allegedly for being too fat (even though he was only using one seat, in case that concerns you).
[OT]
Weight is relevant for cargo, but passengers aren’t typically considered to be cargo.
(Passengers doen’t pay for the seat, they pay for passage)
America the most racist country in the world?
Really?
America definately has its racial problems,and I doubt any culture will ever totally rid itself of predjudices and stereotypes, but didn’t the very notion of racial equality as a political goal arise in the US in the 60’s? Some countries haven’t even gotten that far yet.
Israel, Rwanda, Lebanon, North Korea, China are just a few examples of countries that are significantly more racist than even the worst parts of the US, and that’s just off the top of my head.
But maybe we were just talking about western democratic countries, if so, that should’ve been specified, regardless, a good case could be made for Japan, Australia. UK, France and maybe Spain as being just as bad or worse.
That all being said, I sympathize with Irum Abbassi, she was unfairly harassed by parochial and stupid paranoids.
However, I hypothesize that it was not her race per se, which was the problem but her garb.
I doubt most airline empoloyees would be able to distinguish between an Arab or Persian woman from a Sicilian, Israeli or East Asian woman if it wasn’t for the headgear.
Maybe it’s time to lose the hijab.,
@52: Airlines routinely oversell their flights, so that every seat is taken and then some. The explosion of obesity in the US compounds the problem. If A is denied passage (or delayed) because B is taking up A’s seat in addition to B’s, that’s hardly fair to A.
We’ve seen it. Only in the past century have we seen even a hint of what the alternative might be.
Because I usually get my ticket the morning I fly when headed for a forest fire, I always get the Super Secret Squirrel Search (says SSSS right on the ticket). In my government uniform.
Why am I not surprised.
What, men (like me) can’t be obese? Can you clarify the sexism? And the body shaming?
Could be worse. She could have been a, y’know, a christian. Like McVeigh.
—————–
When I hear Christianists and dominionists talk about creating a true Christian America, all I can imagine is Iran. But with pastors in place of Imams. And it scares the poop outa me.
Let’s see a citation for a passenger being removed from a flight because someone else was overlapping.
[OT]
nmmng: if “Airlines routinely oversell their flights”, then any unfairness is due to that policy, not to any given customer that booked a flight.
(Is the fact that people come in different sizes so obscure to the airlines?)
So… wouldn’t making B buy two seats instead of one make that situation worse, because now A can’t even get a ticket?
Besides, I’d much rather sit next to a fat person, who is quite cognizant of the disdain of their fellow passengers and actively trying to fold themselves into as small a space as possible, than an early-twenties guy with Giant Phantom Schlong Syndrome who has his legs spread out as far as possible over into my space. Or someone who is airsick and holding back a vomitous burp every ten minutes. Or a fundamentalist who wants to tell me about their Special Best Friend Jesus. Or someone who ate some really bad fish for lunch. Or someone who cracks their gum every three minutes. Or sitting behind a really tall guy who tilts the seat way back into my space to try and accommodate his frame.
Face it, traveling with other people means putting up with other people. You want to be alone and not bothered, charter your own damned plane. Otherwise, that whopping $300 or so you paid for your fare doesn’t get you any further away from the teeming masses than their $300 got them away from your judgmental ass.
And now can we please stop this stupid derail? Why, if I didn’t know better, I’d say you threw in a bone about fat people to try and change the subject from the US’s terribly racist and sexist treatment of Muslim women. It’s almost like they’re not at all important to you and you want to make sure nobody else thinks about them, either. Funny how it’s always the topics about women that get diverted into other more “important” topics…
Several times in the last few years, I’ve boarded a plane and found a woman taking up my seat in addition to her own. And I don’t mean taking an extra inch or six, I mean the whole damn seat. On one occasion I ended up having to take a later flight because there were no seats left. I know it’s sexist of me that it was always a woman in these situations, I’ll try to arrange for an obese man to take my seat the next time I fly – but I’m a man myself, so that makes me a rapist, according to this group.
Speaking as a white, heterosexual, overweight man, I just want to say shut up. Seriously, just stop. When you get hauled off of an airplane because you are dressed suspiciously, c’mon back and lay a comment here. Until then, try listening (well, it’s actually reading here, but I hope you grok with fullness).
What you said:
What I read:
Bull-fucking-shit. If you threw a tantrum and refused to sit next to a large person in the seat you were assigned, and then decided to get off the plane when you couldn’t just move your high-and-mighty little self to any other place in the plane you chose to be, that’s your own goddamned fault.
And again, you’re derailing. Why do you hate Muslim women so much that you don’t want the rest of us to talk about how we treat them like shit?
Though I agree with you, I wish you wouldn’t say “Muslim countries.” In the parts of Sub-Saharan Africa where I have traveled, women are often better-off in Muslim countries (or regions) than neighboring Christian ones. I don’t mean to defend Islam, but there are thousands if not millions of women who are working tirelessly to improve their rights within Muslim societies, who want to remain part of those Muslim societies, and I think we should be more aware of that and respect their decisions.
Aquaria: “America: The most racist country in the world, and proud of it!”
Does anyone actually honestly think this is true?
We (the US) may be the most deluded about the level of our xenophobia, racism and bigotry. I have heard variations of, “I’m not racist but . . . ” for my entire life. We don’t think we are racist. Far from it, we consider ourselves to be open-minded, accepting and tolerant. As long as other people look like us, dress like us, and believe like us. And then if we are scared of them, or behave in a racist manner towards them, well, it is their fault for being different. I don’t think the US is more racist than other countries. We are just better at lying to ourselves.
I don’t believe the US is the most racist country on Earth. But it definitely ranks in the upper half.
Father O…
The very fact that Americans would say, ‘I’m not a racist but…’, implies that there is, in the US, a cultural aversion to appearing like a racist, which, by global standards, is something at least.
I agree that it’s nothing much to brag about, but many people here have said things much less stupid and thoughtless than Aquaria only to be completely evicerated in the comments, I wonder why the response to her has been so tepid.
FO: “We (the US) may be the most deluded about the level of our xenophobia, racism and bigotry…”
I think you are underestimating the importance of the sheer level of discussion there is in the US (and some western countries) vs the rest of the world when it comes to racism. In a few countries that I have been to – racism is not only prevalent but nobody really talks about it either. The US is not only aware of the problem but discusses it openly on the news, in politics etc. There are academics paid to study the issues! Its difficult to overstate how advanced this attitude is, and its impact of popular awareness.
‘Tis Himself, OM: “I don’t believe the US is the most racist country on Earth. But it definitely ranks in the upper half.”
I don’t know if you have done this – but a good way to get a feel for relative racism is to travel as part of a group of people of mixed nationalities. You would be surprised how prevalent it is around the world and the sort of people that are not liked in different places. For all the problems the western world has had with racism we have become much much more inclusive as a result. Most of the rest of the world has yet to even embark on this journey.
Personally for all its problems I would be surprised if the US was not in the top 20 least racist countries in the world.
[OT]
Loqi, are you a morphed loki?
I note there’s not much mention of Marzieh Vafamehr, the Iranian actor who is to be harshly punished for acting in a movie.
(Understandable, I guess. What’s there to say, other than it’s an example of the evils of theocracy?)
shoshidge: “I wonder why the response to her has been so tepid.”
There is a very positive aspect of western culture were we can be very quick to point out problems with ourselves and we sometimes greatly exaggerate our own downsides, while being slow to criticise others. I think this attitude has been very helpful in bringing to light and dealing with our own problems and has made us stronger and more moral as a culture.
However I feel that we sometimes take it too far – and I think Aquaria’s comment is an example of this – where we lose sight of any relative scale and declare all manner of nonsense. We fall into cognitive traps like “the noble savage” and “third worldism” (that is a thing!) with this kind of thinking and does harm to ourselves.
The reason I bring this up is response to your query is that I feel this forum has a tendency to fall into this kind of thinking and as a result is somewhat more sympathetic of this error in thinking than other kinds. Plus I’ve been reading lots about it recently so its at the forefront of my mind.
[meta]
Cassius:
Care to adduce a specific example of this?
Because I agree, with reservations, with the statement?
nmmng (#59) wrote:
Another fool that never learned the First Rule of Holes: When you’re in one, stop digging!
Whoa Marcus Ranum reads Pharyngula? The internet is a small world :o
Father O..
If you agree with the statement that the US is the most racist country, even among democratic nations, in spite of the fact that America was possibly the first culture on earth to adopt racial equality as a stated political goal, while most of the developing world was hacking each other to bits over racial and tribal feuds, than I don’t really know what to say.
America definately fall short of it expectations, especially among it’s progressives, but at least those expectations are there, you can’t say that about a lot of nations.
John Morales: “Care to adduce a specific example of this?”
My example was the second post in this thread by Aquaria and the subsequent discussion around it. A number of people have already expressed support, some more limited than others, for a statement that I can only politely describe as deluded.
I’ve had previous discussions on US foreign policy, for example, on this site where I felt this kind of thinking emerge. Another example on this site is the Israeli/Palestinian/Arab conflict where I feel this kind of thinking is negatively impacting.
[meta]
shoshidge:
Please tell me you did not infer this from his “We (the US) may be the most deluded about the level of our xenophobia, racism and bigotry.”
(Else my opinion about your acumen might be less flattering to you)
+eleventy million
John Morales – see Father Ogvorbis latest comment #74.
Cassius @81, you’re suggesting that desiring to avoid the appearance of something indicates being that something?
A number of people have already expressed support, some more limited than others, for a statement that I can only politely describe as deluded.
you know what’s deluded?
thinking the point of the discussion was one of whether the US was number 1, number 3, or number 117 on the list of the most racist countries.
…if you really want to understand why people weren’t actively tearing down the statement, think in terms of the sentiment of the statement, rather than the literal nature of it.
John Morales – “Cassius @81, you’re suggesting that desiring to avoid the appearance of something indicates being that something?”
I don’t think you are seeing the comment that I’m mentioning so I will highlight it:
Father Ogvorbis #74 [re the response to Aquaria’s comment]: “Because I agree, with reservations, with the statement?”
This is not talking about the level of perception/acknowledgement of racism – this is stating that FO agrees, with reservations, with the statement that: “America: The most racist country in the world, and proud of it!”
AND, what’s more, if you wanted to actually ADD something constructive to the thread in counter to that sentiment, perhaps you might want to focus on the positive things that have been done in the US to try and curb racism over the last 100 years, say.
that might have added something of interest to the discussion.
so, if you want to play True Patriot ™, rather than knocking the fact that many of us point out that indeed racism IS still a big problem in the US, you could try pointing out some of the the things that have been done to try and deal with it.
of course, then we have to get back to things like why Americans soundly have rejected the concept of affirmative action over the last 20 years, given that as a country we had only lived with the Civil Rights Act for less than one generation, or that it was even needed in the first place.
John M
see comment 74
As for delusion, the fact that America falls short of its ideals is unfortunate, but as I keep trying to point out, those ideals came from America in the first place.
The first real conversations regarding racial and gender equality as well as LGBT and environmental issues all started in America in the 60’s and 70’s.
If you want to make a point, name me a country with similar racial characteristics which is less plagued with racial tension.
Even if you can, that still doesn’t justify the assertion that the US is anywhere near the MOST racist,(or deluded) country on earth.
Aquaria’s statement, and Father O’s support of it, are so ahistorical, parochial, and cynical it makes one question their seriousness as participants in the discussion, yet hardly a peep was heard in condemnation of them from anyone.
“Because I agree, with reservations, with the statement?”
I will bet you money that if asked, he would clarify it to mean “agree with the sentiment of the statement” than the literal nature of it.
pedantism is just so fucking uninteresting though, don’t you think?
oh wait… maybe you don’t.
*sigh*
this is gonna turn into another man-splainin’ thread, isn’t it.
Ichthyic: “you know what’s deluded? thinking the point of the discussion was one of whether the US was number 1, number 3, or number 117 on the list of the most racist countries.”
Given the statement of discussion was “America: The most racist country in the world”, then yes it is about that. Its not mandatory to discuss it but it’s bizarre to butt in and suggest otherwise.
Ichthyic: “…if you really want to understand why people weren’t actively tearing down the statement, think in terms of the sentiment of the statement, rather than the literal nature of it.”
To me, the sentiment of that statement was “I don’t have a grip on reality”. I am interested in discussing why such a point of view has arisen.
To me, the sentiment of that statement was “I don’t have a grip on reality”
well, good luck getting one then.
I’ll check back in a few hours and see if you have actually added anything interesting or productive to the discussion.
I rather doubt it.
damnit, another closing tag slaughtered.
italics tags are the worst tags in the world, and proud of it!
Ichthyic: “I will bet you money that if asked, he would clarify it to mean “agree with the sentiment of the statement” than the literal nature of it.
pedantism is just so fucking uninteresting though, don’t you think?”
Why don’t you let FO speak for him/her self?
Why are you so happy to read all sorts of negative connotations in what I am saying, but expect that I read other’s statements in the most positive light, despite what they themselves say?
Why is the “non-literal” defence here OK, but on other subjects rejected?
If its so uninterested – why are you discussing it?
Are you sure she wasn’t on a Deep Southwest Airlines?
Ichthyic…
Racism is indeed still a problem in America, and everywhere else, to varying degrees.
America has gone to considerable efforts to counteract this problem through its popular culture, which is infused with the idea that you can’t judge a person by their appearance or background, right down to the saturday morning cartoons I used to watch while I wolfed down my Froot Loops as a child.
They have a ways to go, no one diputes that, but they are farther along than most of the world, which deserves some degree of kudos from time to time.
Why don’t you let FO speak for him/her self?
strangely, I don’t recall having stepped on anyone’s tongue.
you made your interpretation of what they said, I made mine.
Mine’s based on knowing these people better.
but then, this still isn’t interesting.
@ John Morales #52 – you state that passengers are not considered cargo. Not formally perhaps, but definitely in jest.
Check out the Professional Pilots Rumour Network (pprune.com). Passengers are always referred to as SLF: Self-Loading Freight.
Cassius:
I charitably assign your thoughtlessness as due to your unfamiliarity with me.
(I see it)
—
shoshidge:
You do know the meaning of “reservations” (AKA caveats)?
[OT]
RobertL, heh. Yeah — I’d love to pay for my passage on a per-kilogram basis.
Ichthyic says:
Oh, so the normal laws of pharyngula-land, i.e. barfing “liar” and “bigot” all over the screen don’t apply if you’re lying for the left.
Hypocrite Ichthyic.
…and we’ll let you drive a car!
can’t believe that didn’t get a mention yet.
:P
Oh, so the normal laws of pharyngula-land, i.e. barfing “liar” and “bigot” all over the screen don’t apply if you’re lying for the left.
oh, let me just wipe that off the screen there…
yeah, that’s better.
hate it when drool gets on my screen.
clausentum sounds familiar…
is this the old Segmentum, from the previous site?
[Ichthyic, I make it two different commenters]
Ichthyic:
Nope. Different asshole.
When I fly in the North, I’m usually weighed along with my luggage.
For small aircraft, all weight is in the calculation.
Passengers, luggage and fuel.
If we start charging per kilo of passenger, does that mean my kids won’t have to pay full fare anymore?
Funny, I thought the statement of discussion was “Muslim women: screwed wherever they go”. That other one is merely the topic of your derailment of said discussion.
Who ever thinks America is racist should first consider East Europe. And when they think they are most racist, they should turn to north korea. There, you get forceful abortion and then concentration camp if you got pregnant from a foreigner (usually Chinese and in most cases even Chinese Korean). Oh and their dictator insulted South Korea on the grounds how they could allow that lonely farmers are willing to poison the great pure Korean blood through marrying Vietnamese or Filippino wifes. To find a more racist country, you would need to find a time machine into the 30s/40s.
Defecation Receptacle, speaking of extremes may be dandy, yet
.
(Facts are unavoidable)
America, you’re going to have to change the words of your national anthem. How can you continue to call yourself the land of the free and the home of the brave if you run scared at the sight of anyone who looks a bit foreign?
You’re still #1, though, at arguing whether you’re #1.
I looked around to see if there had been any sort of studies ranking the bigotry of countries. The best I found was an eleven-year-old who-would-you-like-as-a-neighbour type of study which claimed Northern Ireland was the most bigoted (at 44% bigoted responses), and Sweden the least (13%). The USA was 30% (though they point out it has probably gotten worse since 9/11) and, for perspective, its northerly neighbour Canada ranked as one of the least bigoted at 21%.
Is that conclusive? I doubt it. Denmark ranked as one of the least bigoted (at almost 22%) but right below this article on google was one claming Denmark was the most racist country in Europe. It really depends what factors you are looking at. A country could be worse about hiring its minorities but better about enacting protective laws. (Interestingly, most of the Danes I know *think* Denmark is terribly racist, and are vaguely embarrassed about it — I wonder if that perception causes them to tick the “would be fine living next door to an X minority” box?).
Anyway, this is rather besides the point — I just thought it would be interesting to see if there were any numbers out there.
@77 Shoshidge:
“the fact that America was possibly the first culture on earth to adopt racial equality as a stated political goal, while most of the developing world was hacking each other to bits over racial and tribal feuds”
@87 Shoshidge:
“As for delusion, the fact that America falls short of its ideals is unfortunate, but as I keep trying to point out, those ideals came from America in the first place.”
Lots of interesting and positive things came from the first american revolution but on the issue in point – racist oppression – the United States was one of the worlds most reactionary countries.
Indeed as many american abolitionists argued the institution of slavery tainted all of the other principles of the american republic to the point of parody and moral ruin. Even leaving aside the universally ignored genocide of the native american population that continued apace even as slavery was finally abolished through a vicious and bloody civil war.
This “Second American Revolution” was a glorious and terrible thing but was only necessary because the United States was so BACKWARD in comparison to much of the rest of humanity.
The rest of the world looks not to either american revolution as the foundation of the modern principles of racial equality but to French Revolution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man. Although not without its problems and betrayals it was this revolution and this document which inspired slave rebellions in the americas while the american constitution was treated with justified contempt by those creating much of its wealth.
American progresives played an important and active part in the enlightenment, in particular on the issues of self-determination, republicanism and secularism but all roads do not lead to washington, then or now.
Gunboat,
I’m with you on everything you said, America’s history of racial opression is awful, but as to the question of present day racism, America is still, by global standards, one of the better ones.
There are places that have a better reputation for racial tolerance, like the Scandanavian countries, but they are also racially homogeneous by comparison, so fewer opportunities for racial conflicts arise there.
On the original point about Muslim women being oppressed in America.
I still maintain that what happened to Ms. Abbassi was BS, but to say she was harassed merely for ‘looking Muslim’, as some have suggested is an overstatement.
Muslims fly back and forth on airplanes every day in the US without these sorts of impediments.
It was the stewardess mis-hearing Ms. Abbassi’s phone conversation which created the bulk of the problem, once she voiced her suspicions, the airline had no choice, given the current climate of fear and litigiousness, to act as it did.
I still think she was wronged, but if this is the worst thing Ms. Abbassi has had to contend with for being a Muslim woman in America, it’s still better than living in Iran by a long shot.
@Gunboat
France is an interesting case. It may claim “egalite” but it has a very my-way-or-the-highway view on enforcing it. For all the UK’s faults we do admit that there are problems!
Before anyone knocks me as being a snarky Brit, I like the place and have spent a lot of time there (and wholeheartedly agree with the French take on food & work/life balance, amongst others), but the French system tries very hard to pretend that certain problems don’t exist when they do. The Académie Française should give some hint as to the cultural mentality…
First, it is him. That would be the ‘father’ part of my ‘nym. Second, I went to bed.
As for this bullshittic pedantism, give me a fucking break. I had already stated, in a previous comment, that I did not consider America to be the most racist nation, but I do consider us to be the most deluded about our racism. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the modern GOP’s Southern Strategy would doubt that America is still very racist. Ditto for the GOP’s and the TeaParty’s reaction to an African American President. Yes, the United States has some grand ideals. And we lie to ourselves continuously that we are achieving those ideals. In the past decade, thanks to a successful mass-murder, racism has now morphed into a national security issue which explains incidents such as the one in the initial post.
I apologize for sleeping in meatspace. Next time I’ll respond in my sleep.
I thought it was intended as slightly tongue-in-cheek, but there is some truth to that statement.
Some Congresscritters support and have held hearings on Muslim extremism, yet fail to acknowledge that Christians have killed many people on U.S. soil due to their religious beliefs. It’s apparently only religious extremism if Muslims do it.
Some Congresscritters support the investigation into President Obama’s birth certificate, and they call him a Muslim. I’ve never heard of an elected official pulling this kind of crap on any other president. Some state legislatures are supporting a legal investigation into the president’s birth certificate as well.
Who do you think votes for these people? They represent some cross-section of the American public, or they wouldn’t have been elected.
Back on topic – I can present some examples from transit across the US/Canadian border. When you take a bus, everyone debarks together and waits in line, and you get called one at a time to speak to people at the counters. Everyone can hear what’s said, it’s an open area.
I am a short, glaringly white woman, and I basically get waved through (in both directions) no matter what I bring with me or how much stuff I have. Even if I have food or fruit. Anyone with dark skin or accent gets the bloody third degree, especially going into the US. I’ve taken food across with no issues, but saw a US border agent throw out similar foodstuffs belonging to a woman with dark skin and a headscarf. She didn’t have much more than I did, but my bag barely merited a glance and I got to keep my stuff.
I’ve seen people get yelled at by US border agents because they didn’t have a very good grasp of English and had trouble answering rapid-fire questions. An entire family of Spanish-speaking people were prevented from reboarding one bus – they looked extremely upset (especially after seeing me get waved through), but I cannot attest to whether there was an issue with their paperwork. They all had passports in their hands, though, so no idea what the problem might have been.
Buffalo and Niagara are two of the main points where buses come through from Toronto, and buses from Montreal tend to go to Albany or go through VT. So why does US Customs and Border Patrol board every bus going through Rochester NY (it’s so close to the border!) and grill everyone a second time on their citizenship? And they demand to see the papers of anyone who’s not a US citizen, even though these people already went through the border checkpoint…
The Buffalo checkpoint also used an x-ray scanner and bomb dogs for a while. I clearly remember one incident where the agent didn’t even look at the screen while my bag went through, but hauled out the bag of the person behind me – she had a headscarf – and ripped it apart.
The agent didn’t find anything in the bag, but he did strew the woman’s underwear all over the table, in plain view of everyone. That’s fucking petty and unnecessary, especially when he’d already viewed the bag’s contents through the x-ray machine.
Based on that, yes, I’d say there’s a pretty unhealthy streak of racism in the US.
#3 or black musicians with a hobby and fascination for old airplanes.
It hasn’t even been a month ago since PZ featured the article on here that some guy was kicked of a flight for reading a book about pre-war airplanes while waiting for takeoff.
You’re still #1, though, at arguing whether you’re #1.
which reminds me of something I ran across yesterday:
The world according to Americans…
@ 113 Shoshidge
“I’m with you on everything you said, America’s history of racial opression is awful, but as to the question of present day racism, America is still, by global standards, one of the better ones.”
Nice backpedal dude, but what you actually said was:
@77 Shoshidge:
“the fact that America was possibly the first culture on earth to adopt racial equality as a stated political goal, while most of the developing world was hacking each other to bits over racial and tribal feuds”
@87 Shoshidge:
“As for delusion, the fact that America falls short of its ideals is unfortunate, but as I keep trying to point out, those ideals came from America in the first place.” (emphasis added)
This is just historically, factually untrue. And as far as modern-day racial theory (which is, btw, part of what I do for a living)…that didn’t come out of America either. By and large, it came out of colonial France (Cesaire, Franz Fanon, Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault) in the 1920-40’s, which made the Civil Rights movement in the US possible. While it is true that a lot of great ideas came from the American civil rights movement, those idea(l)s were hardly “American” in character. Rather, they were critiques of colonization and the racialization that went along with it.
Allie…I don’t see where I was backpedalling.
America was a nation built on blatant, systemic racism.
And you’re right in pointing out that the American civil rights movement was greatly influenced by French,(and other European), philosophers.
But,(and I’m speaking as a layman here), racial equality was in effect an academic or abstract concept in France during the 60’s given that the French population was predominantly White and French.
America, by comparison was possibly the most ethnically diverse nation on Earth at the time and was faced with the challenge of trying to put these high-fallutin’ ideals into practice.
The US was the epicenter of the struggle for racial and sexual equality in the 20th century, they were the ones who had to put their money where their mouth was.
And they did, particularly in the form of pop culture,(movies, music etc).
THe US sperad the notion of racial equality, sexual equality and other progressive values around the world through music and film.
Bravo for the French for partially seeding this cultural revoloution, but it was the US that made it globally relevant.
I understand France has its own racial tensions these days, that is unfortunate, nontheless, I give them credit for trying to do it right some of the time, which is more than you can say for much of the world, which was the original point i was trying to make about America.
Shoshidge,
Again, what you are saying is factually untrue. The racial makeup of European countries was ethnically and racially diverse in the 60s, just as it was in America. Moreover, those countries dealt with racial issues, many times decades before America was willing to tackle them. For instance, the black community in France (and btw, the French govt prohibits the collection of racial data–unlike America) is estimates to be between 7-12% of the population, congruent to the US. And the French govt, as I mentioned, outlawed the collection of census data based on race in 1789 and again in 1919. They also made it illegal to discriminate for work or housing based on race decades before the US did.
The UK outlawed racial discrimination in 1965, a year after the US ratified the Civil Rights act. However, unlike in the US, the UK also banned hate speech and incitement to violence based on racial discrimination.
While racial discrimination still occurs in European countries, many of them proposed legislation to do something about it ~before~ the civil rights movement in the US, or while Americans were still fighting about it (and lets not forget that most of Europe had outlawed slavery a full 30 years before the American Civil War.)
What my point is is that American wasn’t exceptional in dealing with this issues (except maybe for backwardness). The “High fallutin’ ideals” were HUMAN ideals, not AMERICAN ideals.
Aliie, on your stats regarding black populations of the US and France, was that for now or then?
If the black population in France was as high as America’s during the time of the civil rights movement I will be surprised, but I’ll take your word for it,(you’re the expert).
Even if so, America also had the Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, Polynesians and more thrown into the mix.
I maintain that they were,(and still are,although to a lesser extent), more racially diverse than Europe or anywhere else except maybe Brazil.
But that digresses from the salient point.
You are talking about law, and I’m talking about culture.
When I think of the struggle for racial and sexual equality and and the golden era in which it was waged, I think of Bob Dylan, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, JFK, Malcolm X, Sly and the family Stone, Sidney Poitier, Atticus Finch, John Lennon, Kirk and Uhura necking, etc…
With the obvious exception of Lennon, America was the center of this cultural sea change.
That all being said, I’m Canadian, and english speaking so I would be more influenced by American pop culture over others.
But while western Europe may have been ahead of America in a legal sense, the cultural flavor that defines that period in history is American, at least for me.
I suppose I can see how a European would see it differently.
We can argue over detail all night, but my initial point wasn’t to portray America as the the best, just not the worst, and better than most
@Shoshidge #122
“When I think of the struggle for racial and sexual equality and and the golden era in which it was waged, I think of Bob Dylan, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, JFK, Malcolm X, Sly and the family Stone, Sidney Poitier, Atticus Finch, John Lennon, Kirk and Uhura necking, etc…”
Well of course you think of those people and no one else. They’re from your part of the world and you’re clearly clueless about the rest of the planet and other struggles, movements and leaders.
Amazingly the chinese didn’t have to tune in to Radio free America to realise the practice of foot binding was barbaric and outlaw it.
The vietnamese spent decades fighting agains the national, racial, sexual and class oppression of their people by foreign including your beloved JFK who is HATED in that country although mostly unknown.
But hey, that was in asia, who gives a fuck huh? There only like billions of people there and its miles away from north america…
Your dishonesty and stupidity is a bad combination for this site.
Gunboat Diplomat,
I’m not an expert on foot-binding,but after the perusal of the English, German, Japanese and Chinese Wikipedia entries it seems that it wasn’t outlawed due to human rights concerns, but because it had been seen as a relic of the feudal past.
The practice started in the Song era, became more and more widespread and seen as a symbol of Han-ness, so that the prohibitions of the Qing government, which was seen as foreign, at the end of the 19th century were not heeded. The Nationalists outlawed it, the Communist did, but the practice continued until the Cultural Revolution, when it was again confronted as feudal practice. I don’t think that it was seen as a human rights issue, more like an issue of class struggle.
Interesting enough, only the English Wikipedia mentions Western missionaries preaching against the practice, while the English and German Wikipedias do mention Chinese feminists like Qiu Jin. Neither missionaries nor feminists are mentioned by the Chinese or Japanese versions.
The best thing about this site is how people can express their opinions without being called an idiot or racist or misogynist or…wait a second…I was thinking of someplace else.
What a deep and original insight that Jennifer just expressed.
We’re not as bad as North Korea. Now there’s something to be proud of. Makes little red white and blue tears of patriotism well up in my eyes. Now, if you tell me that we’re better than Uganda too, well I might just spangle stars right in my shorts.
Oh, and Jennifer… you’re an idiot.