Mary’s Monday Metazoan: The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you burned very, very brightly, Roy » « Mary’s Monday Metazoan: The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you burned very, very brightly, Roy

Episode CCXLV: Darwin sings!

The World Humanist Congress is over. The closing ceremony involved a few speeches, the Norwegian Humanist Choir, and this video played on the big screen.

(Last edition of TET.)

Mary’s Monday Metazoan: The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you burned very, very brightly, Roy » « Mary’s Monday Metazoan: The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you burned very, very brightly, Roy

Comments

  3. The Lone Coyote says

    Sorry, couldn’t resist doing it once in my life. Never again.

    I just watched Gorillas in the mist…. those were real gorillas in most of the shots, right?

  5. The Lone Coyote says

    it’s a shame they can’t let people get right into the groups and interact with the mountain gorillas anymore like that. I understand why, and protecting them from disease is way more important than fulfilling some human need to hang with other apes, but still….. hanging out with gorillas would be awesome.

  6. 'Tis Himself, pour encourager les autres says

    The only part of the video I didn’t care for was Darwin standing in front of the socialist star and giving a clenched fist salute. Darwin was a confirmed capitalist who felt one of his greatest achievements was being a particularly successful investor. I suspect he would have felt rather dubious about socialism.

  7. electrabotanical says

    They say you don’t go to the Unitarian Church for the music, and I’d say the same for an evolution concert. But, hey, it’s the people and ideas that count, right?

  8. Species8472 says

    They should’ve gotten James Randi or Daniel Dennett to do the Darwin impression :)

  9. Thorne says

    Don’t know if this has been asked already, but PZ, I was wondering whether or not you were planning on reproducing the random quote here on FtB? It’s one of my favorite parts of the blog.

  10. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Good morning, everyone!

    I had a kind of crappy weekend (again) and now it’s cold and rainy outside. Bah.

  11. broboxley OT says

    from the last thread, Classical Cypher your score is tremendously impressive. Anyone can blarg thru a test well enough to pass but to study as hard as you must have shows a lot of determination.

  12. Psych-Oh says

    Good morning! The kids are back at school, and I am back at work… I feel “normal” again!

    Audley – Sorry for your bad weekend.

  14. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Thanks, Psych-Oh.

    You know things are shitty when you look forward to work on Monday. :/

  15. Trebuchet says

    When “Darwin” first walked in wearing the hat, I thought I was looking at a rabbi! Is it just me?

    Since this is my first post in TET, allow me to introduce myself. I’ve been lurking at the old Pharyngula for several years but never got around to posting. I’m retired, live in the Northwest USA, and am a closet atheist — just too many others hurt by coming out at this point. You can likely guess my hobby from my nickname.

  21. Quodlibet says

    I am following multiple threads here this morning, and they’re all loading nicely, and the commenting is easy. (Summertime, and the commenting’s easy…)

    Anyway, thank you very much to all the people who worked to set up this new blog and to get it running smoothly. I appreciate being able to drop in here and get a healthy dose of rational thought. Oh, and the entertainment is pretty good too. That Beck thread just keeps on keepin’ on. (Wonder if Barbara will show up today…? She’s just so cute, sort of like a whining housefly…all buzz, no bite, and spreads shit around.)

  22. Richard Austin says

    Okay, I just have to vent.

    I scheduled a day off to go to a wedding reception. This was in a clear time when nothing was going on.

    So, of course a client ends up delaying and delaying and so an installation gets pushed back to last week. I got the installation done on Thursday and explicitly scheduled IT resources to be available on Friday to support them while I was travelling.

    So, of course the IT manager flips out on Friday when things go wrong and the resource I’ve scheduled has to work. Never mind that if I was here, the same resource would have had to be doing the same work because it was all problems in the code and he had to fix those anyway. Or that I did extra work the prior week so that he wouldn’t have to (the install and the testing itself). All of that doesn’t count, of course. He insisted that the external customer get “low priority” for the tech.

    So the IT manager yelled at my boss, and the customer yelled at my boss about why support was so crappy (the last time they did an install, IT did it themselves and it was almost as crappy).

    Now I’m getting “yelled at” (politely, of course) for why I scheduled a vacation day during an upgrade (I didn’t), why I didn’t schedule resources to cover me while I was out (I did), etc.

    I swear, the same old politics no matter where you go.

  23. theophontes says

    @ Trebuchet

    Welcome on board, aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr.

    Let me guess “feline aviation”?

    @ [general whine]

    Could we not have a list of older posts in the left hand column (as per the old blog)?

  24. Quodlibet says

    Hello Trebuchet!

    “Trebuchet” is one of my favorite words.

    Your hobby? Let’s see….Do you fling cows over battlements for fun?

  25. René says

    I’m an occasional lurker on the Endless Thread, for several reasons. Mostly because it would take too much of my time to keep up with the pace things run here. Also because I mostly live on the internet when the ‘Murkins are sleeping.

    Anyway, maybe the following might interest you lot, as I have seen a keen interest in SciFi among the regulars. (If you guys [f/m] think PZ would be interested, please forward.) What I think is the most remarkable in the diagram, is the respect that is shown to all the major religions, by not including them, where mythology, legend, ancient pantheons and such, are.

  29. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Tis,

    I am copying a very important, very large file on a very crappy wireless connection and yet I IMMEDIATELY opened the link to flying pianos.

    And I regret nothing.

  30. MFHeadacse, caffeine fueled , but not enough to avoid misspelling his own name. says

    Richard Austin,
    I am shipping you a cattle prod as we speak, it should be useful in preventing such snafu’s in the future.

    I can send a chipper/shredder if the cattle prod is insufficient.

    -another IT monkey

  32. Richard Austin says

    MFHeadacse (is that a Tpyos offering in a ‘nym?):

    I appreciate it, though I think the only one the prod would be used on is me. Unfortunately, I’m in the wonderful position of having all the responsibility and zero authority. Such is life in IT. But that means I have no one to prod, unfortunately. My days of being able to tell users, “You’re an idiot; I’m not doing that” were over when I took this job.

    But at least it’s a hospital, so I can at the minimum pretend that all this torture goes to making life at least a little better for some very sick people. It helps.

  33. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Randide, do you think we live in the most randy of all possible worlds?

  34. AJ says

    PZ, I understand FTB needs ad revenue to feed the site, and I don’t object to them in principle … but auto-playing video ads? Are they really necessary?

    (And, please, no-one need inform me of the various plugins that work around such irritations – I am well aware, but they ought not to be required)

  36. says

    Arrrrrrrrgh! I don’t even want to go to Cleveland and this is driving me mad! First the Metro is flooded, then the taxi leaves without me and now I am waiting for a part to be replaced on the plane which is probably one thirty before it’ll be here!

  37. MFHeadacse, caffeine fueled , but not enough to avoid misspelling his own name. says

    Richard Austin, Chipper/shredder it is, bosses can make good fertiliser, the main risk being they work best on roses, and roses are evil. Feed the roses too much and they may get greedy and come after you.

    Not to mention needing to break in a new boss.

  40. First Approximation says

    A conservative explains who Mabus reallly is:

    David Mabus (Dennis Markuze) is a deep cover liberal whose goal is to mock conservatives and make us look like psychotic lunatics. I suspect the Montreal police are taking no action against him, not because they’d rather he snap and kill someone first, as they claim, but because they already KNOW he’s an act. The only rational reason for the Montreal police to take no action against a man who has been issuing death threats for ten years is if they know he’s a fake and are in on it.

    Mabus is like Stephen Colbert….only with death threats.

  42. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Hi, SteveV!

    That is awesome! All I ever see are ads for Audley Shoes. :)

    Anyway, Barbara is back and crapping up the Glenn Beck thread. I gotta say, that woman has excellent timing– she showed up last night after I ate dinner and now she posts a comment aimed specifically at me while I’m on lunch.

    This is too much fun.

  46. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Kat and Nigel:

    And they’re filming some bits for The Avengers here, so downtown is going to be a madhouse. That said, I’m hoping you arrive safe and sound and not too travel-weary.

    I’m sorry that your trip to Cleveland is sucky so far, Kat. Cleveland is one of my favorite cities.

    On the “filming is fucking everything up” topic: There’s a movie with Bradley Cooper, Ryan Gosling (sp?), and Eva Mendez filming in my city as we speak. Apparently, they planned to close all of the major streets today for some chase scenes, but considering how bad the weather is I bet that that they rescheduled. I hope that traffic isn’t a total clusterfuck on my drive home from work today.

  47. Quodlibet says

    Ing:

    Ugh Barbra is such a smug lip smack.

    And she keeps calling Audley a “smirk” —

    I’m thinking that “Smirk” is the perfect shorthand for “sanctimonious, purse-lipped, church-lady troll.”

  48. Ing says

    Yes Barbra’s bare literate status is a source of amusement for me. Sounds like her Universal Translator is broken.

  50. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Janine, that will always be the dream. Not that anybody cares but Sept. 1 will be the one year anniversary of the exact opposite of that ideal for me.

  51. Dhorvath, OM says

    SG,
    We don’t even have a gauge theory for unifying the strong force at the moment, gravitymagnets aren’t looking to promising.
    ___

    Weed Monkey,
    Okay, just checkin’.
    ___

    Classical Cipher,
    Well now, that’s a mark well earned. Celebration continues.
    ___

    Audley,
    Crappy weekends are best left behind. Here’s to a better week.
    ___

    Slignot,
    Likewise for Mondays.
    ___

    Trebuchet,
    Well, you will fit in with that nym.
    ___

    Richard A,
    And still more people having a rough go. Sorry to hear about that, working can be so very aggravating.
    ___

    We had a good birthday party for our little guy on the weekend. He has a new playhouse with rope ladder, doors, two levels, recycled tire swing, and all made to fit. No plastic, just lumber and time. It’s very neat.
    ___

    Randide,
    And a new nym?

  53. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Yeah, Dhorvath, I’m not (Not Randy) anymore. It allegedly co-incides with me not being mostly a lurker anymore.

  54. says

    Things seem to have slowed down somewhat, by which I mean I apparently need to get just two deeds drafted, proofed, initialed, executed and notarized today. Ditto the Affidavit of Corporate History that helps clarify merger stuff. Thankfully only one of the people I who sign these things is out today, and I can substitute for his initials/signature.

    They’ve also stopped with the horrid breaking and hammering and death, so that they’re not making more piles like this one that greeted me as I got in today. Does anyone else find that jackhammering below you makes your feel brains are dribbling out your ears? I think the bones of the building were acting like the tines of tuning fork. At least the water is on again; it wasn’t for part of last week when they finally had to let us go home.

    I’m also trying to figure out whether I go home over lunch to go get my wallet so driving isn’t so illegal or whether I just stick it out and skip eating anything, get the urgent work stuff done, and drive up to the university to pick up spouse once they release him from horrid (and outdoor) team building “retreat” sometime before 4. That way I can make him drive and minimize my commute without a driver’s license.

  55. says

    Dhorvath wrote “We had a good birthday party for our little guy on the weekend. He has a new playhouse with rope ladder, doors, two levels, recycled tire swing, and all made to fit. No plastic, just lumber and time. It’s very neat.”

    That is so cool! We never had anything like that as small kids but when we got (almost) big enough we built tree houses, log cabin forts and one winter, (1978), we built an ice tunnel/igloo where we could, uh … spark up. Teenagers, waddayagonna do?)

  56. strange gods before me says

    We don’t even have a gauge theory for unifying the strong force at the moment, gravitymagnets aren’t looking to promising.

    Yeah, well, we just don’t have enough data. But we can get the data, simply by collapsing the entire universe. For science!

  57. Dhorvath, OM says

    Sign me up then. I like the idea of a particle accelerator that takes millenia to make a collision.

  58. says

    I don’t know if you all have heard about the ‘stage collapse’ at the IN state fair that killed 5 people and injured scores of others.

    I haven’t followed the news accounts closely because they’ve all been so wrong.

    To me it looks like the lighting truss was blown over onto the crowd. I have rigged many shows of this type and I have never heard of that happening. It’s stable trussing that is raised from 4 points by 1klb chain hoist motors. (They are man-rated, which means their breaking point is >5x higher than their rating point.)

    While I have little doubt that all involved will will be sued, it really does seem like a very freakish wx event.

  59. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Dhorvath,

    Crappy weekends are best left behind. Here’s to a better week.

    Awe, thanks, sweetie. *hugs!*

    Strange gods:

    For science!

    I read that in the Professor Farnsworth voice. It’s too perfect. :D

  61. MFHeadacse, caffeine fueled , but not enough to avoid misspelling his own name. says

    -es?
    -icles?
    -osterone?
    -y?

    Don’t leave me hanging Mr Fire.

  65. says

    So the lack of internet access at home is starting to negatively influence spouse’s and my decisions re: media. After a spouse headache prevented more Castle Crashing, I consented to watch not one but two terrible early 90’s ninja craze movies: the first Ninja Turtles movie and Surf Ninjas. I can’t express how awful they are, really.

  68. says

    Sili:

    It’s a Cephalopodmas Miracle!

    Not quite yet…it was a poor effort on Barbie Teacake’s part. I’ll wait and see if she comes back and resorts to her usual poor slings and incredibly bad punctuation.

  69. 'Tis Himself, pour encourager les autres says

    Yes, Teabagger Barbie is back with new and improved non sequiturs, question dodging, and general cluelessness.

  70. says

    slignot, I understand. A few years ago I took a vacation with my ex-gf, (ritzy by my standards, sublet a condo on the ocean), and for the 1st 2 days the intertubes was out. Many calls to condo owner and local ISP resulted in us being advised to piggyback on a neighbor. (They gave us his WiFI password!)

    I would have complained more but she and I both leave 1/2 our brains on the net.

    Their was frivolity had by all, but the 1st 2 days were tough.

  71. Sili says

    When “Darwin” first walked in wearing the hat, I thought I was looking at a rabbi! Is it just me?

    Oh?! So this isn’t supposed to be Charles’ second cousin twice removed, Moshe Darwin?

  72. says

    I would have complained more but she and I both leave 1/2 our brains on the net.

    This feels very true. I looked at spouse, as we were killing time between loads of laundry this weekend and asked him what the hell we usually do.

    My brain couldn’t seem to load past the fact that we’d been watching Stargate on Netflix and so we should just continue doing that. Also, Steam was having freakout offline problems so the entire downloaded/installed library of entertainment was a no go.

    Thankfully they’ll be putting in the fiber on Thursday, but I don’t have a specific date when X-Mission will start service, since the connections need to be there first.

  73. says

    I’m watching a show (“Factory Made”) and they are showing how a putter head is made. I swear it’s like The Simpsons show making a pencil. 80% of the original steel block is removed.

  76. says

    Howdy all. A rare visit from me – can’t keep up with the TET.

    Couldn’t help myself from commenting though, since IT people were complaining about bosses. I handed in my notice a few months ago, and will change jobs in two weeks. After I handed in my notice, which I only needed to do one month before, mind you, my boss squeezed in 3 major deadlines, which I of course were responsible for.

    Joy.

    Well, we made the last one today, so the last two weeks should be fairly smooth (yeah, right)

  77. Patricia, OM says

    Hope someone goes to PZ’s house and tapes a “Happy Frabjous Day!” sign on the door.

    Ms. Daisy Cutter – HAAW! Good one. Bill Donahue would look good in the pooped shirt too.

    Have we got our favorite font back yet?

  78. strange gods before me says

    broboxley: I don’t know what to make of it; I’m not so interested in the origin of the self.

    In other news: while sitting at a table, pushing upward against the bottom of the table with one’s hand increases several measures of creativity.

  79. Classical Cipher says

    I’m sad. I’m so sad. I had a fight with my family. It was one of those Swallow Shit or Spoil the Afternoon moments and I chose to spoil the afternoon. And even though I think it was the right thing to do this time, I still feel like absolute shit. Murr.

  80. Patricia, OM says

    Well crap, I can’t blather around here anymore, time to go find out if I’m getting punched or bored by the new doctor at Our Sisters of the Child Molesters.

    -o-

    We needs the Comic Sans PZ!

  81. says

    Kay. The trip from Hell is over.

    Here’s how it went:

    6 AM: Get to the Metro station and get on the Yellow line Metro announcement comes over that says there’s a track outage between Braddock and the Airport and they’re getting a shuttle set up – oh, and that could take about an hour to do. And we’re sitting there for about twenty minutes at this time. My flight will be boarding at about 7.20

    6.20: I get off the train and go down to call a taxi. I call up the company and they tell me they’ll meet at the North Kings’ Highway exit of the Metro – which is the opposite side from normal, but what the heck.

    6.40: No cab, call comes through telling me they’re waiting, so I figure oh crap they’re on the opposite side of the Metro station. Run run, cell phone noise, your taxi has left. I promptly call up, curse at the cab company and throw my bag (and apologize to the woman cause it was not her fault.)

    7 AM: Tired of waiting for the next cab the woman never ends up sending (fuck that cab company) I grab another cab. I change my flight time to 10 AM flight because there’s no way I’m getting on my flight.

    7.30: Get to the airport fine, get through security, get to my gate. On Time, leaving at 10.05. About five minutes later “On Time, leaving at 10.30.” I’m very confused by this, but whatever, I have anime.

    10 AM: After watching the clock slowly climb and “On Time” switch to “Delayed,” the new time for leaving the airport is 11.30. Whatever, not a big deal!

    11.30: And you thought you were getting out that easy. Nope, lightning hit the plane, killed the antenna, and they had to get it repaired. Part won’t be there til 12.45, it’s a thirty minute fix.

    1.15: Finally get on the goddamned plane. Out to the tarmac at about 1.30, and we sit there “We’re not cleared for takeoff until 15 after.”

    2.15: Goddamn this trip!

  82. says

    I had an IT boss that gave me a project under extreme deadline. (that day.) I told him I thought it would at least take me a day to do it, maybe more.

    Everything went right, (how often does that happen?), and I came back with it in 2 hours. He complained that he’d had to rescheduled a meeting because I said I couldn’t deliver it in time.

    Arrrrrgh!

    I don’t do much IT work anymore.

  85. Katrina, radicales féministes athées says

    Caine –

    Barbie Teacake

    ::snorfle::

    {{hugs}} for Katherine and CC.

  86. Francisco Bacopa says

    This is a test of my new gravatar. I think it may not work. My little plant appears in the WordPress toolbar when I am at the Freethought Blogs page, but then the gravatar disappears when I come to Pharyngula.

    If you see a little Bacopa caroliniana plant next to my handle, it worked.

    If the plant does not end up there, does anyone have any idea why?

    I want a gravatar!

  89. says

    Hello Kitty (AKA Katherine Lorraine) that trip did suck, but it’s still only 4 pm, (well, by my time;-)
    +++++++++++++++++
    WTF!? This must be Monday or something. everybody’s day sucked. Mine included, but I got trumped early and often;-)

  90. cicely says

    Caine, how’re you feeling?
    –
    *hug* for Classical Cipher.
    –
    And *hugs* and good wishes for Patricia.
    –
    Aaaand *hugs* and a *booze* for Katherine Lorraine.

    Sometimes you have to eat shit, and sometimes the shit eats you.
    –

  91. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    CC:

    And even though I think it was the right thing to do this time, I still feel like absolute shit. Murr.

    The exact same thing happened to me on Friday. I ended up swallowing my pride and apologizing to my sister, even though I was not in the wrong.

    It sucks. *hugs*

  92. Richard Austin says

    Regarding deadlines…

    My last job, I’d been working on applying for this one for months. My boss knew, and she and I were working on a transition plan (she and I backed each other up for almost all of my work).

    So, beginning of the week, I know I’m supposed to get an official offer by the end of the week. My boss and I plan to have a training session on Wednesday to hand off most stuff.

    She gets laid off on Tuesday. No warning, no reasons, just “your position no longer exists” sort of thing. Then her boss, who I can’t stand, says the next day, “We’re going to be relying on you pretty heavily for the next month or two; I hope you’ll let me know if you’re unhappy about anything.”

    Oooh yeah. The look on his face when I told him I’d be submitting my 2 week notice on Friday was priceless. Of course, he then had me on a plane flight to another plant to try and train others on how to do what I did, but that didn’t work out so well (I think, 8 months later, they’re still figuring it out).

  93. says

    Katherine, I send liquor your way. You deserve it.

    Oh, and it turns out that the reason the hammering and noise and hell is over is that they don’t have a demolition permit on file. I’m just relieved that it stopped. Plus I was able to snag a roll in the office, so not eating lunch hasn’t bothered me too much.

  94. Rey Fox says

    Not the way I’m familiar with the word “murr” being used, but hugs anyway to CC. In the long run, this sort of thing is generally for the best.

  96. Birger Johansson says

    Supplement to Darwin video : Evolution in popular culture (not 100% correct evolutionary sequences, but I like the geek amoebas with glasses)

    Fatboy Slim – Right Here Right Now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjelxPz5Og&ob=av2n

    Dilbert – Intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpivIYJFjd4
    — — — — — — — — —

    Yes! Fermented herring season begins on Thursday !
    I will celebrate with The Ikea Song as a Metal Version, by Mitch Benn (Crimes Against Music) … … … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO7W2Tytfvk&feature=related

    “Fireflies” (Parody-Ikea) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsGc6-lNAHQ&feature=related

    (OT) Space Station mishap: Mitch Benn- Nowhere to boldly go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZRKihuzJTE&feature=related

  97. says

    CC, that is the worst fucking thing. Sometimes taking a principled stand can lead to lasting good, even if it fucking sucks at the time (and immediate aftermath). I’m pouring some nice whiskey into the USB port.

    Richard, that office environment sounds rather like spouse’s. Where he went on vacation for two week (~ 6 years ago now) and when he returned, his boss was reassigned to another department and he had her job.

  98. says

    I will be having booze in about thirty minutes when I get my dinner at the bar downstairs.

    Set: 2 min, 2 seconds – but I’m using a Trackpad, Mac OS X Firefox makes me click on the checkboxes and not just the pictures, and I missed the easiest one.

  100. Katrina, radicales féministes athées says

    Final reminder for Horde members and lurkers who belong to PET.

    If you don’t have your ‘nym here listed over there, you’re going to lose your membership there before today is over.

    [ominous voice] You have been warned. [/ominous voice]

  102. Francisco Bacopa says

    We all like to mention what funny ads pop up on this site and others. I almost always get the Longhorn Network ads Plugging the Rice vs UT game.

    I am also being stalked by Liquid Web. Back when PZ announced that he was looking for a new host for this site, someone mentioned Liquid Web in the comments. I thought with a name like that they might be doing dielectric fluid submersion. So I clicked on the link and found they didn’t do that. Now I see their ads everywhere I go, including Youtube.

    BP ads are coming back. All of us within 50 miles of the gulf coast have been getting those endlessly since the spill.

    So, what annoying ads do you get?

  103. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Reposted from before the portcullis:

    Markita:

    The used prices at the campus bookstore are higher than Amazon’s new prices, and I’ve never had good luck buying used books sight unseen. (I bought a copy of the Koran via Amazon’s used book system; it was listed as “Very Good”, but if they were being honest, it would have barely reached “Acceptable”.)

    Also, I would consider borrowing/renting the books, but considering that the two books I’m looking at are for core courses (which, of course, means that the qualifiers will cover them), I want to be able to hold onto them as long as necessary.

    By the way, one bit of good news: They’ve changed the Ph.D. program requirements starting this semester.

    Advantage #1: It’s 72 hours now, instead of 90. Previously, a Comp Sci Ph.D. student had to take two minors (one of which must be Mathematics). No longer. (We’re still welcome to if we so choose, but it’s not required.)

    Advantage #2a: Three qualifiers, not four. There are still tests on the core subjects (Algorithm Analysis, Architecture, and Operating Systems), but no test on the Major Research Area.

    Advantage #2b: Instead of a qualifying exam, we’re required to complete a survey paper for our Major Research Area within a year of passing the quals. This is an advantage and not a disadvantage for one primary reason: We would have had to write it anyway. (It’s typically chapter 2 of one’s dissertation.)

    So, yeah. Not everything is set up to screw me over.

  105. SteveV says

    The Sailor

    I swear it’s like The Simpsons show making a pencil. 80% of the original steel block is removed.

    [topper] A few years ago my project included machining a block of forged aluminium down from 8000kG to just over 800kG[/topper] It’s the big sniny lump behind the smug bastards in my new avatar thingy

  107. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    The Sailor:

    The difference between a pencil and a putter head is that you can reclaim the steel and turn it back into another block to be reused.

  108. says

    Seeing people in the Transitional Form thread talk about yeasts and brewing makes me want to do another batch of cider. We make our own; it comes out in a very dry traditional English style. We haven’t done a batch in a year or so.

  109. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    Nerd:

    PZ closed the thread Babs was babbling brainlessly on.

    *shakes fist!*

    Not cool, man. Not cool

  110. Matt Penfold says

    Proper cider should not have any added yeast. The wild years on the apples should suffice, and if fermentation is a little slow, chuck in a rabbit skin.

  114. Matt Penfold says

    and if fermentation is a little slow, chuck in a rabbit skin dead rat.

    Well if you live in Cornwall I suppose. But what do the Cornish know about cider ? Pasties yes, Cider, nope. :)

  115. Sheesh (as seen on Sadly, No!) says

    PZ closed the thread Babs was babbling brainlessly on.

    *shakes fist!*

    Not cool, man. Not cool

    Too bad too, it looked like we had a real chance of hit 1600 comments :)

  116. says

    Proper cider should not have any added yeast.

    That takes considerably longer and makes for less consistent results given what we use locally.

    We use unpasteurized pressed juice sold by an orchard in the Southern part of the valley, and add one packet of champagne yeast as well as a mixture of honey and sugar to up the alcohol content.

  117. Birger Johansson says

    Now that arch-cultist Bachmann is pulling ahead in the polls and the cleptocracy seems to get even more arrogant, I thought it would be appropriate with a bit of Kurt Weill and Tom Waits…

    The well-fed are lecturing the destitute about virtues, now and in the 1920s
    Tom Waits- “What Keeps Mankind Alive” … … … … … … … http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6DSiD5CQ_Uk

    More Kurt Weill. There is still a war going on (not that one might notice from the media coverage, as the dead are expendable people who signed on to escape unemployment and poverty).
    Stan Ridgway sings Cannon Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcmMmHQU8cg

  118. Matt Penfold says

    That takes considerably longer and makes for less consistent results given what we use locally.

    That’s why you have the rabbit skin, or if Cornish a dead rat, to hand.

  119. says

    What I’d love to have a precise way to replicate is the stuff I’ve had from Normandy. That was the most delicious cider I’ve ever had; I’m happy with how ours turns out since it’s easy and consistently tasty, but that was a thing of beauty. I don’t even know where I’d get a rabbit to throw in, and the cultures on our apples are probably very different than what you have on the proper English apples.

  120. Quodlibet says

    PZ closed the thread Babs was babbling brainlessly on.
    *shakes fist!*

    Not cool, man. Not cool

    Darn, I was enjoying that thread! It was like a nice cheese, getting better by the day.

    Well, perhaps Barbie Teacake (hee hee!) will miss us and will come back for a visit. Who knows, that thread might have been the most intellectual conversation (albeit one-sided) that she’s had in years, if her family, friends, and fellow-church goers are anything like she is.

  122. Ms. Daisy Cutter says

    Patricia, #77: Thank yew! And, yeah, there are many candidates for that shirt.

    Classical Cipher, #79: Argh, I hate those moments.

    Remember: No matter which one you choose, the afternoon/evening/weekend will be spoiled for you anyway, because you’ll be seething about what you decided to swallow. Some might insist that you be a Good Little Girl and keep everyone else happy. I say, fuck that. Especially since they’re the ones who actually ruined it and are hoping you’ll feel guilty for standing up to them.

    Katherine Lorraine, #81: Damn. If you drink, I hope you’ve been knocking ’em back.

    Richard Austin, #92: :(

    Janine, generally: You don’t happen to know of, or have heard, an old-school rap version of “The Itsy Bitsy Spider,” do you? I heard it *cough* years ago on the radio.

  124. Matt Penfold says

    What I’d love to have a precise way to replicate is the stuff I’ve had from Normandy. That was the most delicious cider I’ve ever had; I’m happy with how ours turns out since it’s easy and consistently tasty, but that was a thing of beauty. I don’t even know where I’d get a rabbit to throw in, and the cultures on our apples are probably very different than what you have on the proper English apples.

    Well these days rabbit skins are not used, or at least no one admits to using them. They were used though, in the making of scrumpy.

    Also, the apples used to make cider in the UK, and Normandy, are not apples that can be eaten. Far to much tannin. I suspect that effects the type of yeasts that grow.

  125. SteveV says

    But what do the Cornish know about cider ?

    I live in Cornwall, but I be from Zummerset (well south Bristol) as you should be able to tell if you know my surname…
    And dead rats are (supposedly)the promoter of choice there. Certainly the taste of some of the scrumpy I’ve had would bear that out. I recall being given some by a kindly farmer to wash away the taste of the petrol I’d just siphoned out of his Riley. Don’t know what was worse. And it was so strong that the bike would probably have run on the bloody stuff.

  126. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Um, if police has someone arrested on the street, how long you suppose they can reasonably keep him lying on the ground, in the same position, not moving at all (as far as I can see) without it being something …. very not good?

  127. Matt Penfold says

    I live in Cornwall, but I be from Zummerset (well south Bristol) as you should be able to tell if you know my surname…
    And dead rats are (supposedly)the promoter of choice there. Certainly the taste of some of the scrumpy I’ve had would bear that out. I recall being given some by a kindly farmer to wash away the taste of the petrol I’d just siphoned out of his Riley. Don’t know what was worse. And it was so strong that the bike would probably have run on the bloody stuff.

    Ah, it is a Somerset/Devon divide then!

    Wonder what they used in Herefordshire and Worcestershire ?

  128. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Caine:

    Can I be in the Short Dual Wielding Murderer department?

  131. says

    Benjamin, I understand the steel can be collected, melted and cast into blocks again. What I don’t understand is why they don’t just cast the head.

    The optimist says the glass if half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says you made the glass twice as big as necessary.

  132. Classical Cipher says

    Positional asphyxia is baaaaad juju.

    This, plus as someone who suffers from joint issues, I’ll say it can be quite painful for some people to be in the same position for a long time, doubly so if it’s already an uncomfortable position.

  133. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Hm, during one of my trips from the balcony to the computer (other side of the apartment) it seems they have finally moved him. A police car drove off, so I’ll assume the man was in it. Maybe I’m paranoid, but seeing a man lying on the ground, unmoving and surrounded by three to four police officers (I also think I saw a nudge (kick?) with a foot one time) made me a bit suspicious. He was so still I first thought it was a dead body, but obviously cuffed hands confused me. Yeah, police doesn’t exactly bring out feelings of trust and peacefulness in me.

  134. Dhorvath, OM says

    The Sailor,
    Casting results in different fine grain structure from cold forging which is different again from machining.

  135. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Beatrice, the answer is “as long as we want to”, go ahead, ask them. I’ll wait.

    I’m going to take your word for it. Wouldn’t want to find out how long “as long as we want to” lasts for asking questions.

  136. Dhorvath, OM says

    Okay, let me expand. A metal implement is more than just the alloy it is constructed from and the external shape it presents. At a finer level how that shape was produced has an impact on the alignment of crystals in the metal matrix. This can have a dramatic impact on the longevity of an implement as well as changing how it resonates, (of particular interest to golfers I gather.) Also, casting tends to have the most variability in terms of finished product while CNC machining is highly repeatable and cold forging produces generally the best grain structure. All have their places, so it is likely that that manufacturer prefers the repeatability of machining to the strength of forging or the value of casting.

  137. says

    Dhorvath, I know that, I was just giving an example. There are many techniques they could use to give them the properties a fucking putter head needs, milling 80% off of it isn’t the optimal one.

    A blacksmith could probably do a better job of forging the grains and interstices of carbon better than the CNC machine did, but then they couldn’t charge a bad golfer as much.

  138. SteveV says

    Wonder what they used in Herefordshire and Worcestershire ?

    (mutters)Snakes and lizards, I’ll be bound. Northerners – how do they work?(/mutters)

  139. Dhorvath, OM says

    The Sailor,
    Do you really think a smith forged implement is as accurate as a cnc machined one? I have little doubt that it could look very nice, and may even suit a particular golfer very well, but it’s not a repeatable item in any fair sense of the term.

  140. says

    Dhorvath, we cross posted, but I’ll add to your #137, that block was cast to begin with. Machining it did not improve it’s grain.

  141. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    A CNC machine or blacksmtih could forge a putter out of the seed of titans and quench it in the tears of 1000 virgins, and it wouldn’t help my game.

  142. says

    Dhorvath @ 140, I was giving an extreme example … and now that I think about it a custom made club from a smithy might be just the thing to separate even more money from golfers;-)

  144. Dhorvath, OM says

    Sailor,
    Fair point, machining doesn’t alter the grain, it allows the grain to be maintained during shaping. How the initial block is formed is more important in that respect, the machining allows for precise shaping tolerances.

  145. SteveV says

    The Sailor.
    Machining from solid may have economic advantages depending on the length of the production run. Casting will involve some tooling costs which will need to be amortised over the run. The CNC route has the advantage that design changes (for function or fashion) can be incorporated very quickly, so quickly in fact that each club head could (in principle) be unique.
    Why yes, I design a lot of ‘machine from solid’ parts.
    Why do you ask?

  146. says

    Of all the things that have been talked about today, I can’t believe the golf club, casting-forging-machining one got the play. … that’s sad and cool at the same time!

    Did I mention we’re about to get a 3-D printer at work? The factory isn’t training me but the factory trained people will.

    My boss asked why I wanted to learn this. I didn’t have an answer at the time except “because it’s cool.”

    But I’ve thought about it and one of the things we need are custom lens mounts. I can design it on SolidWorks, take my flashdrive down to the machine shop, and make it. The goo will probably be strong enough to work, if not we have a prototype for our machinists to make.

    (BTW, we have a machine shop and a wood shop at my school. The machinist, after I proved which machines I’m competent on, lets me play there.
    BTW II, did I mention I have an A&P license?)

  147. Quodlibet says

    Set 1:36

    —-

    I had an amazing dream yesterday morning. My husband, daughter, and I recently spent three fabulous weeks in France, and I am busy this week sorting through mementos, photos, and guide books as I reconstruct our trip and write a travelogue to share with family and friends. I’ve been spending a lot of time on it, not only writing the narrative, but also sifting through a lot of detail, since I am including menus, food and wine notes, historical notes, birding lists, etc. It’s the funnest research/writing project!

    I’ve also been playing Set a lot…way too much. I found a site on which you can play one game after another after another after another… There’s no timer but it is hugely addictive. Midnight, 1am, 2am….

    Anyway, yesterday morning I woke from a dream in which I was poring over the guidebook for the Loire Valley… On each page, in between pictures of chateaux and vineyards, were the various Set symbols: ovals, diamonds, and squiggles, green, blue, red… I flipped the pages back and forth frantically, trying to form sets among all the chateaux… I woke up feeling frantic.

    I have not visted that Set site since. Well, only once or twice. It is so addictive that I won’t post the link here unless you really, really, want me to.

  148. David Marjanović, OM says

    *jumps on congratulation bandwagon for Classical Cipher with chocolate containing sea salt crystals and éclats de caramel on top*

    Mattir, thanks for your e-mail, I’ll reply tomorrow. Spent too much of the day traveling and coaching.

    A poll, for your pharyngulatory pleasure. (Rowr!)

    Instead of clicking on the links to the pictures, I read a few comments. From there:

    “@2, @7 [who had asked for a NSFW warning] isn’t this the kind of question that implies NSFW? Did you think the question was about “which tie?” or something?”

    “@18-naively, yes. I figured one was just wearing ridiculous clothing, and the other was wearing a Rick Santorum mask.”

    I’m sad. I’m so sad. I had a fight with my family. It was one of those Swallow Shit or Spoil the Afternoon moments and I chose to spoil the afternoon. And even though I think it was the right thing to do this time, I still feel like absolute shit. Murr.

    *hug*

    …

    *another hug*

    *and some for Katherine and Audley, too*

  149. Quodlibet says

    Right after I posted #147, I started getting a new banner ad for travel to France. That just creeps me out.

  150. says

    Quodlibet, that sounds really cool! Except for the anxious dreaming about it part.

    Also, too, you need to file a COI disclosure before any of the addicts here make you reveal the site.

  152. says

    Hi again everyone, and thanks for the welcomes! I had to shut down and do a bit of traveling after my initial posting which is why I’m a bit late responding.

    @’Tis, 17: I have to tell a really odd story regarding that piano link. My cousin was recently talking to the daughter of an old friend and happened to tell her about my rather silly hobby. She didn’t say anything. Later he googled her name. It turns out she built the piano-tosser in the video. Small world!

    My preferred tossing objects are pumpkins. Small ones at that, since my team broke up and I can’t manage a large machine any more.

    @Cicily, 20: As it happens, I do have to do a fair bit of cat wrangling. Not with the trebuchet, however.

    @The Sailor, 73: Only 80% scrap would be a very high yield for a hogout part my former occupation in aerospace. Not good for a casting, however.

  153. says

    SteveV, I’ll check out SolidEdge. SolidWorks is what my Uni bought at great cost with a limited amount of dongles.

    It has a high learning curve (approaches infinity) and makes me feel stupid.But I can design a shaft with a round plate on top and a hole in the round plate, viola, a lens mount.

  154. says

    Trebuchet, a punkin’ chucker, eh? Cool. They make great pie afterwards. (The pumpkins and the chuckers IME;-)

    80% is fine for a one-off. Not good for production.
    ++++++++++++++
    I can cast aspersions, and I can forge alliances, I can only mill about …;-)

  155. strange gods before me says

    I have not visted that Set site since. Well, only once or twice. It is so addictive that I won’t post the link here unless you really, really, want me to.

    I do.

  156. cannabinaceae says

    Both fans and foes of Mars terraforming might want to check out this Part 1 from NatGeo.

    Now, I’m just guessing that few, if any of you, have read Turner’s epic poem on the terraforming of Mars, Genesis.

    Oh, and FYI, I’m a fan.

  157. SteveV says

    Sailor:
    I’m conversant with bothe SE and SW. I prefer SE (SW seems to have been written by Yoda – ‘On that plane draw a sketch’ – Bah!) but in fairness, they’re both very capable.
    I think SE is more intuitve but YMMV.
    Had a good natured shouting match about their relative merits just today – ‘that’s bollocks’ ‘oh yeah? an you’re a know nothing wanker!’ that sort of thing.
    It’s much like Mac v Windows and about as useful.

  158. cannabinaceae says

    At Punkin’ Chunkin’ if you make pumpkin pie in the sky, your shot is disqualified. The air machines seem to do that about half the time. Trebuchets, not so much.

    Oh, and what the glass is, is halfway to another beer.

  159. says

    SteveV, as long as they have compatible output extensions I’m all for which is the most intuitive.
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’m flipping back and forth between Family Guy and Eureka.
    One is a cartoonish show with sexual innuendo where the main characters always learn thir lesson.

    The other is Family Guy.

  160. strange gods before me says

    I thought about the Raving Atheist for no reason I can remember, wondered if he’s still a Christian.

    Apparently so.

    That storyline, to some degree based on a 2010 interview with him, seems to confirm what many thought at the time: after he became anti-choice, he just wanted a community that supported his new values, and he found it through Dawn Eden.

  164. says

    ‘night SteveV
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    I’m flipping back and forth between Family Guy and Warehouse 13.
    One is a cartoonish show with sexual innuendo where the main characters always learn thir lesson.

    The other is Family Guy.

  165. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    “At Punkin’ Chunkin’ if you make pumpkin pie in the sky, your shot is disqualified.”

    Does that include mid-air collisions? Say, a disgruntled avian on its way to the hog farm?

  168. Classical Cipher says

    We’ll miss you! *Giant Caine Hug (so you can stock up for the next few days)!*

  169. 'Tis Himself, pour encourager les autres says

    I think I’ll go to work tomorrow. I stayed home today. It was a mental health day.

  170. says

    @Benjamin: I’m proud to say that I’ve never pied a shot. A little less proud that it’s because I’ve never had a machine powerful enough to break a pumpkin on launch. I did toss a little one backward into the crowd a couple of years ago. It took me a couple of seconds of looking at the empty sky to realize that everyone else was looking in the opposite direction. No harm, no foul.

    Don’t know how they would judge a midair collision.

  171. broboxley OT says

    SGBM Im sorry, I thought that link would be right up a free will alley of sorts

  172. David Marjanović, OM says

    We’ll miss you! *Giant Caine Hug (so you can stock up for the next few days)!*

    ^_^ Seconded. :-)

  173. strange gods before me says

    Thanks, Quodlibet.

    broboxley: ohhh. I’m convinced that free will is ruled out by physics and the philosophical meaning of free will itself, prior to any biological or neurological organization. I fall up to the neurological arguments, as from Libet, when the listener doesn’t seem to care about the lower levels.

  174. strange gods before me says

    I think I may also have convinced myself that not even an omnipotent deity could have free will.

  175. Classical Cipher says

    The worst thing about that site is when you win and the win message shows and you click okay, it starts loading a new game right away. That’s just mean.

  177. says

    Classical Cipher, thank you! Turns out the battery in the mifi is bad, I can get connected for about 15 minutes every once in a while. No one has a frigging replacement battery for the stupid thing, either. Tried Best Buy, Interstate Battery and the Veriz0n store, nothing. Ordered from Amazon, but it will be a few days. :sigh:

  181. Quodlibet says

    The worst thing about that site is when you win and the win message shows and you click okay, it starts loading a new game right away. That’s just mean.

    I warned you!!

  182. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    The hell, I see I’m not the only one with wireless problems. Although mine relate to cell phones, not internet. Here’s what seems to be the problem: Originally we had ATT&T for both cell phone and internet. We switched to Comcast maybe a month ago or so, and now there’s a new account number which we didn’t know about until now. The last payment was send to the old account. Don’t they have to give you some kind of warning, “OK, but just be aware, we may be changing the account number so check your next bill carefully”?

  183. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    Thanks for the hugs, David.

    So, I was explaining to Mr Darkheart that everyone has had a shitty couple of days and he said, “Maybe the Old Ones are breaking through.”

    Way to be an optimist, buddy.

  184. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Housekeeping item — I’ve finished compiling the reader requests for tweaks to Gnu Pharyngula and have sent it to PZ. I also posted the results on the original Complaints thread for those interested.

  185. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    ‘So, I was explaining to Mr Darkheart that everyone has had a shitty couple of days and he said, “Maybe the Old Ones are breaking through.”’

    That made me chuckle.

  186. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    Josh, you still kicking around?

    I just got a god damned auto-play ad (for Resolve stain remover, of all things) on TET. Pop-ups I can deal with*, but I draw the line at ads that autoplay.

    Could include it in your list, please?

    *Apparently, the ‘Droid’s pop-up blocker doesn’t actually, you know, block pop-ups.

  187. strange gods before me says

    If anyone wants killfile here, I suggest they email its author and offer him a Paypal donation. He does say in a javascript comment to just email him with requests, so I’m sure he’ll do it for free, but y’all do get so much value from it…

  188. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    Well crap, Josh. If I had actually read what you had written, I would have known that you already sent the list! My bad.

  189. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Sorry, Audley. I tried to be complete, but I’m shit at understanding mobile concerns since I don’t use one. I did, however, relay concerns about mobile css availability.

  190. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    I’m still trying to decide which course(s) to take.

    Right now the big question is this: Digital Image Processing or Fuzzy Logic?

    Digital Image Processing is apparently structured like an ordinary course: homework, midterm, final. Fuzzy Logic doesn’t have any of that (according to a fellow grad student) but students have to write a paper over the course of the semester.

    There’s also the issue of books: the book for the Digital Image Processing course is $185 from Amazon. Fuzzy Logic has no book.

  191. Classical Cipher says

    Hugs back and thanks to everyone for the support. It was much needed. Turns out I wasn’t the only thing to spoil the afternoon – while most of my family has been in California, it turns out my stepdad has been smoking heavily in the house. The house that my mom has spent months trying to get into better shape for my brother with bad asthma and environmental allergies. Wooooooo.

  192. The Lone Coyote says

    Trebuchet:

    Don’t know how they would judge a midair collision.

    I’d judge it awesome.

  193. says

    Benjamin:

    It’s easy for me to say, I admit, because I’ve never been within a book’s cost of the edge, financially… but if there’s any way you can swing it, I’d say you should never let the cost of a book determine your course of study: First criterion should be what you need to take; second should be what you want to take, and then there’s schedule, classmates, relationships with faculty… as long as you can still afford basic food and shelter, I’d put book prices way down the list.

    All:

    I’ve only skimmed the last two days of TET, but hugs, congratulations, and booze all around, as applicable.

    Finally, re “putter”ing around: I’m no manufacturing technology expert, but I’ve been exposed to the field obliquely through 20+ years as an aerospace technical editor. My first thought was that code is cheap and durable; molds and hard tooling, not so much. If you cast something like a putter head, the casting would be near-net shape, and would require finish machining anyway. I’m guessing it’s both cheaper and better from a process control POV to just CNC machine the thing, esp. since the “scrap” is probably virtually 100% reusable. The tears of virgins (per ‘Tis) are, OTOH, probably not recyclable at all, sadly.

    ‘Night, all….

  194. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Delightful. We have an arsonist in the neighborhood. Three nights ago, he (you know it was a he) set fire to an easy chair my across-the-street neighbors had set out on the curb for trash pickup. Fire trucks at three in the morning. There was so much charring and blown-about cinders it’s a wonder no one’s house caught fire.

    Then last night he set fire to a recycling bin up the block, also on the curb. Not one of those small boxes; one of the big up-to-your-chin square barrels full of paper.

    We don’t know what to do. We’re afraid this is going to escalate until someone’s house is burned and someone is killed. There have been no police or firefighters coming to our doors to interview us, calling us, or anything. WTF?

  195. says

    Benjamin, given your interest in photography, choosing Digital Image Processing seems like a no-brainer. Is it just the book cost that’s putting you off, or are you seriously interested in the other topic, too?

  196. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Bill:

    I am within a book’s cost. As it stands now, I’m already borrowing more money for this semester than I owe for my other debts combined.

    Having a stipend helps, but my stipend ($769.21 every two weeks) barely covers rent, fuel, and utilities. Rent is $675, fuel is about $300*, electricity is $200 or so (yes, seriously, what the fuck), internet is $45; adding everything together and assuming a 20% withholding for taxes (the bastards), I’m left with $10 (that’s right, ten dollars) per month.

    * I live 45 miles away from campus, have to be on campus 5 days a week (23 round trips per month) and get about 25 MPG. Do the math.

  197. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Cath:

    Fuzzy Logic does interest me. At this point, however, it’s more a matter of figuring out which one would be easier. (This semester is going to be hell no matter what I do, so I don’t need to pile more work on my plate.)

    – – – –

    I supposed now would be a good time to remind everyone that I’m accepting donations.

  200. Francisco Bacopa says

    Delightful. We have an arsonist in the neighborhood. Three nights ago, he (you know it was a he) set fire to an easy chair my across-the-street neighbors had set out on the curb for trash pickup. Fire trucks at three in the morning. There was so much charring and blown-about cinders it’s a wonder no one’s house caught fire.

    I was a witness to a car arson a couple years ago. It was scary. The cops and arson team were awesome. An arson investigator called me back within five minutes of the report. I told him I would not talk to the cops on scene as it didn’t want people to think I knew what was going on. Investigator gave me his name and badge number, When cops knocked on my door I told them that I would not talk to them gave the name and badge number of the arson detective. They walked away and told the spectators that I knew nothing.

    Hoodboy neighbor had his car illegally impounded as evidence. I swore him to secrecy and gave him the name and number of the detective. Her got his singed car back for free and became a crime fighting ally. Once he found that the cops could save him from corrupt wrecker drivers he got a whole new attitude.

  201. Classical Cipher says

    I can’t handle tonight :( I’m trying really hard to watch Mozart and the Whale, which is pretty much the sweetest and most adorable thing I have ever seen at the moment, and still I’m nauseous and headachy with stress and quite ready to tear someone’s fucking eyes out with my fingernails.

  202. The Lone Coyote says

    Just got off the phone with my ex. She’s going to officially come out tomorrow, to her friends. One of them is almost certainly going to abandon her. Why? You all know why.

    I wish I could make it easier for her. :/

  203. says

    I’m back from Ottawa. I swam, I went to a museum, I hung out with the stepdaughter and her fiancée. It was a nice weekend.

    It’s time to change my ‘nym again.

    The album “E. Power Biggs plays Mozart” had a piece that started out angry and then very gradually resolved. I found it great for getting rid of a bad mood. I wonder if you can get the album online.

  204. says

    Classical Cipher, I’ve had some stupid things happen while trying to make plane flights, but never a string of them like that. The stupidest was that I arrived at the airport 57 minutes before my flight and they wouldn’t let me check in because I was there less than an hour in advance. I had to re-schedule to a flight three or four hours later and sit around the airport. Once I had re-scheduled, they let me check in. I was through security and customs in ten minutes. WTF!!? I now drive for anything that doesn’t take me the length or breadth of the continent.

    Ever heard of voting with your feet, stupid airlines?

  205. Classical Cipher says

    Hee hee, actually that was Katherine Lorraine that had the airline trouble. I’m pissy cos I fought with my family today, I found out another family member was doing something stupid and destructive, and I had to look at housing. Housing is stressful because either I have to pay way more money than I can afford or I have to live with a stranger and I don’t think I can handle it. I got nausea and a stabbing headache almost as soon as I started looking at it. Plus I don’t have my financial aid yet, so I don’t know if I even have those two options. Oh, and one of my friends wants to see me and I am so completely irrationally resistant to the idea that I get sick and upset thinking about it despite the fact that she has been one of my best friends and I have absolutely nothing against her.

    Yes, I’m complaint central tonight.

  206. says

    I just want to mention here that I am working on a data set containing variables named “ass_assessment” and “ass_approval”. It is making me snerk and snortle in a juvenile fashion. Damn you Americans!

  207. SteveV says

    ‘I love the smell of’ freshly (hand) ground Kenya peaberry ‘in the morning.It smells like (pause… slapping sound…pause..’ Morning.

  208. says

    It smells like (pause… slapping sound…pause..’ Morning.

    I hate Benzos, they have a large addiction potential, and they give me nightmares. But this has now been the umptieth night in a row that I haven’t slept a single minute before an 8am shift, due to still being knocked off my sleep pattern from previous night shifts. I might have to consider the idea.

  209. Spunmunkey says

    Well – this morning was interesting. Larouche nutjobs on my way to work – with huge signs proclaiming ‘Darwin was wrong’ with a picture of the Queen & Hitler subtitled ‘Green buddies’. I would of given them more of my time, other than saying on passing “what a fucking joke”, but I had to catch my bus…

  210. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Something came up on another thread, but it was tangential to that discussion and that thread had already died down, so I decided, since I was really interested in this question that I raised, to move it here & see if there are others interested. If not, I promise not to try again. My point is not to be boring, but just give the conversation a decent shot at moving in a productive direction, which it has not yet done.

    So…this is what I posted on that other thread, with brief references to 2 other pharyngulites

    ………………………………………..

    Why do you use the word “primitive” to describe *ANY* religion?
    What would be an “advanced” (or pick your antonym) religion?
    What could muslims do to still be religious and still be exactly as devout or not as they currently are (not changing the quantity of religiosity) that would change the *quality* of religiosity to a non-primitive type?
    I ask because I see the word used often in ways that I consider quite racist. I haven’t seen that from you. Rather, I see you using the word primitive to describe so many religions & religious people that it seems to have lost all meaning, not used in a limited way that causes it to imply a racist meaning.
    But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you do have something specific in mind when you say “primitive”. I’d just like to know what it is.
    One thing I would NOT like to see is that we assume that religions of technologically primitive cultures are necessarily primitive religions. It is possible to be culturally complex and/or advanced without being technologically so. And in any case, technology is not religion, so the description of one should not depend on the other.

    ****

    Is monotheism more “advanced” than polytheism? than animism? than ancestor worship?
    if so, why?
    Does “cultural advancement” have something to do with whether something is an “advanced” religion?
    If so, what does having an “advanced culture” mean besides having a Western one?
    Does portraying certain religions as “primitive” imply that some religions are advanced? Wouldn’t it have to?
    If it does… don’t we add to the conceit of those who think that their super-awesomely-abstract-and-complicated theology is “advanced” theology? Doesn’t that just reinforce their arrogance and their certainty that their theology must be taken more seriously than other theology?
    Is abstraction a sign of advancement /progress / anti-primitivism in religion or theology?
    Did I just throw a wrench in things by adding the word theology when I started out talking about religion…or was theology implied at the beginning since at bottom theology is just thinking about religion and that’s what we’re doing when answering these questions anyway?

    ****

    if the category is to be useful ….that is, if we are to use the word “primitive” in the present… then any system of determining which religions are advanced and which primitive would have to classify **Some** current, present day religions as advanced – as actually practiced, not just, “This religion could, in theory, be advanced.”

    ***
    Theophontes, during the discussion, said:
    “an advanced religion is one that ceases to be religion.”
    Rob says that there is no such thing as an “advanced” religion.

    If either of these things are true, then there cannot be a “primitive” religion because there cannot be anything other than a primitive religion….[snip].

    If this is true, “primitive” is at least lousy thinking, worse it could be providing comfort and solace by allowing people whom you intend to critique to constantly believe that they are the non-existent exception, the advanced religionists.
    At rock bottom, primitive is a racist synonym for folk from countries in the process of urbanizing.
    ……………………………………..

    That’s what was on the other thread. To sum up:

    So….what do we mean, if anything, when we say a religion is “primitive”?
    Which religions are primitive by this definition?
    Have we been using a racist definition? Have we been using a definition that fits into the “least bad” category? Am I right or wrong to worry that our use of primitive **may** do more to shield religions from critical thinking than it does to bring critical attention – is this simply not a reasonable worry?

    Thanks for all who read & comment.

  213. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    JM –

    How does your “magical thinking” idea separate some religions from others?

    You seem to imply that all religion is magical thinking. If so, then you still haven’t provided any meaningful division between “primitive” religion and “other/advanced/pick your antonym” religion.

  214. SteveV says

    AFAIK, all religions rely on faith (defined as belief without evidence). This constitutes ‘magical thinking’ and is, therefore, primitive.

  215. John Morales says

    Crip Dyke, basically, what SteveV wrote.

    If so, then you still haven’t provided any meaningful division between “primitive” religion and “other/advanced/pick your antonym” religion.

    :)

    R is an example of category M, and M is primitive implies R is primitive.

    (You want to quibble about degrees, or about kind?)

  216. says

    @SteveV:

    Agreed. Religion is primitive thinking, there are no advanced religions. Believing that somehow magic happens (when not in storybooks) because some deity / spirit / greater power / energy / dinner likes you is irrational, unreasonable, and primitive.

  217. consciousness razor says

    Crip Dyke, of the long moniker:

    That’s what was on the other thread. [link] To sum up:

    So….what do we mean, if anything, when we say a religion is “primitive”?

    Saying “religion is primitive” is different than saying a religion is “a primitive religion”. The former compares religion as a whole to other, non-religious social practices and institutions, while the latter compares religions with each other.
    Personally, I wouldn’t use the word “primitive,” since as you note, it carries some unintended negative connotations, associated with racial stereotyping and the like. Also, some people like things that are “primitive” or at least are indifferent to them (in the sense that they come from early in our history or are fundamental to our lives), so it’s difficult to use the word to convey much useful information.

    Which religions are primitive by this definition?

    As I said, there is more than one definition, and these can’t be disentangled easily. One person hears “early in history,” while another hears “savage” or “uncivilized,” another hears both, and another hears something altogether different. In the end, it’s just a word, and can’t carry an argument all by itself.

  218. Miki Z says

    For me, there is no religion that is not primitive, just as there is no God that is not imaginary. However, in the COMP (cult of my parents), “primitive religion” means a religion that importunes various Gods and spirits for direct intervention in the physical world and believes that events in the natural world are caused by supernatural forces.

    This differs *completely* from Christianity and other “non-primitive” religions, as anyone but a fool can plainly see. They only importune *one* God for direction intervention in the physical world and believe that events in the natural world are caused by supernatural forces, but only when those events are what they wanted. See, not at all the same!

    So, saying that all religion is primitive may not be a distinction at the philosophical level, it is a way to remove the exceptionalism embraced by the practitioners of “modern” religions. See, for example, this definition of primitive religion to witness the whole fetid swamp of exceptionalism and blindness.

  222. Birger Johansson says

    An “advanced” religion, by my reckoning would be a lot like the Swedish church or the Anglican one, easygoing, maybe a bit diluted, concentrating on the pragmatic side (good deeds, do no harm) rather than on intricate theology derived from scrambled texts. Ritual as voluntarily followed tradition instead of lenghty rules* carved in stone. No crusades or stonings.
    In other words, a religion that has soaked up the humanitarian ideals of the enlightenment.

    (*the chadora/headscarf rule for women is a case in point)

  223. consciousness razor says

    I’m reminded of Hume’s The Natural History of Religion:

    But as men farther exalt their idea of their divinity; it is their notion of his power and knowledge only, not of his goodness, which is improved. On the contrary, in proportion to the supposed extent of his science and authority, their terrors naturally augment; while they believe, that no secrecy can conceal them from his scrutiny, and that even the inmost recesses of their breast lie open before him. They must then be careful not to form expressly any sentiment of blame and disapprobation. All must be applause, ravishment, extacy. And while their gloomy apprehensions make them ascribe to him measures of conduct, which, in human creatures, would be highly blamed, they must still affect to praise and admire that conduct in the object of their devotional addresses. Thus it may safely be affirmed, that popular religions are really, in the conception of their more vulgar votaries, a species of daemonism; and the higher the deity is exalted in power and knowledge, the lower of course is he depressed in goodness and benevolence; whatever epithets of praise may be bestowed on him by his amazed adorers. Among idolaters, the words may be false, and belie the secret opinion: But among more exalted religionists, the opinion itself contracts a kind of falsehood, and belies the inward sentiment. The heart secretly defects such measures of cruel and implacable vengeance; but the judgment dares not but pronounce them perfect and adorable. And the additional misery of this inward struggle aggravates all the other terrors, by which these unhappy victims to superstition are for ever haunted.

  225. Birger Johansson says

    My idea of a good religion is one with me as god-king, and a nation of people building pyramids and thinking out new ways of being nice to me.

    If you are familiar with Philip José Farmer’s Tierworld series, you may remember the lords and ladies using supertechnology to create a private cosmos for each of them. That is close to my ideal. If the described immortality is not available I might settle for being uploaded in the mainframes that rule each cosmos. :)

  227. Carlie says

    So, I was explaining to Mr Darkheart that everyone has had a shitty couple of days and he said, “Maybe the Old Ones are breaking through.”

    As Kiefer Sutherland says, that would explain everything.

    Classical Cipher, hugs to everything.

    Ben – have you checked all possibilities for the book? Used bookstores online often have them cheap, and ebay, and local stores with students who have sold things off, and sometimes you can order from amazon.ca or amazon.co.uk for a lot cheaper than here even with the extra shipping. Yep, bookstore publishers do the same thing that pharmaceutical companies do, and give other countries cheaper versions than we pay in the US. (For example, the textbook I use for one class is available in effin’ paperback in Canada for almost 1/3 of the hardback price, but not in the US.)

  228. drbunsen le savant fou says

    Thread bankrupt driveby ahoy!

    Goodness what a rotten few days some of us have had! Being merely bored and a little cabin fevery seems like bliss in comparison.

    I had the dwellers under the stairs burnt off with liquid nitrogen (or possibly CO2) last week. That was special.

    Hugs CC and Caine, Janine, all who want em.

    Congratulations CC and David M!

    Janine – I was kind of serious when I suggested black market analgesics. I hear there are remarkably effective opiate derivatives readily available in the informal economy *cough*. Course, complications ensue, not least of which would be what to do or say if the medics decide you do deserve proper pain relief after all. I hope the punch goes to plan this time, and analgesia is given. Like everyone else here, I’m horrified that it’s not a given that it be given!

    Josh: I thought your gravatar was Laura “wrapped in plaaaastic” Palmer!

    Nerd Of Redhead:

    I must admit, I wince when you use the word “loser”. I ask you to consider the cultural work that word does and whether it is appropriate. I think it is problematic, and I would be happy to explain my thoughts further – after …

    I’m declaring a brief TET holiday for myself. I’m obsessive enough to need to read every. single. comment, and I simply can’t keep up! There’s a big wide internet world out there and other things I need to obsess over want to catch up on. I’ll be back in a few days, meanwhile I’ll see some of you on PET.

    Cheers and tentacular waves to all. Have fun with Tea Party Barbie if she shows up again. Mmm, chewy snacks :)

    ps, PZ: That FTB logo is horrible.

  229. Carlie says

    ben – also check for ebook versions, if that’s something you can cope with (as much as I read on the internet, I still shudder at the idea of reading books that way.*)

    *and yes, I’ve seen kindles. I understand that they’re easier on the eyes. It doesn’t matter.

  231. John Morales says

    Birger, I was mightily impressed by Kickaha as a lad.

    </nostalgia>

    (Not to be confused with Señor Vorpal Kickasso)

  232. David Marjanović, OM says

    I had to make parboiled rice because we’re out of the normal kind. I spiced it heavily to cover the parboiled taste. Result? It’s nicely yellow, but remarkably tasteless. In particular, it tastes as if I hadn’t put any salt in the water at all. Of course I put plenty of coarse sea salt in it…

    while most of my family has been in California, it turns out my stepdad has been smoking heavily in the house. The house that my mom has spent months trying to get into better shape for my brother with bad asthma and environmental allergies. Wooooooo.

    Too tired for violence fantasies. Gotta run.

  233. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    Kat:

    I can bake you cookies! Where will that get me in the eyes of God-king?

    Goddamn! You beat me to it!

    Will a cake please the God-king?

    Carlie:

    *and yes, I’ve seen kindles. I understand that they’re easier on the eyes. It doesn’t matter.

    They definitely are easier on the eyes than a lit screen, but I feel there’s a tactile component that they’re sorely lacking. I love everything about books and the Kindle just doesn’t feel real to me.

    Anyway, more of my Boarders haul:
    Mr Darkheart went after work yesterday and picked up The Apocalyse Watch (Ludlum), The Fuller Memorandum (Stross), and Quantum of Solace on Blu-ray for me. Yay!

    I’ve realized that Daniel Craig looks like an orangutan.

  234. SteveV says

    you may remember the lords and ladies using supertechnology to create a private cosmos for each of them. That is close to my ideal. If the described immortality is not available I might settle for being uploaded in the mainframes that rule each cosmos. :)

    Be careful what you wish for. Remember also Surface Detail.

  235. John Morales says

    Australian Football has been trying to clean its act up for some time.

    In local news: Eagles bench McGinnity over mum slur.

    West Coast defender Patrick McGinnity will miss the Eagles’ key clash with Essendon after he was suspended for allegedly vilifying Demons forward Ricky Petterd’s mother.

    The incident occurred at the start of the half-time break in Sunday’s match at Docklands which the Eagles won by eight goals.

    McGinnity was heard to have made derogatory remarks about Petterd’s mother, which the Demons forward quickly relayed to an umpire.

    The 22-year-old Eagle was charged under the AFL’s code of conduct regarding respect to women and could face suspension and a fine.

    McGinnity also copped a $2,500 fine for breaching the AFL’s respect and responsibily policies.

    He will also apologise to Petterd for the remark.

    “I deeply regret the words I used in a verbal altercation on Sunday,” McGinnity said in a club statement on Tuesday.

    “The heat of the moment is no excuse for over-stepping the mark and I sincerely apologise to the Melbourne player who my comments were directed at.”

    […]

    Club chief executive Trevor Nisbett said he was pleased that McGinnity had apologised immediately.
    “We have high standards as a club, which we have continued to enforce in recent years and we are disappointed Patrick stepped outside those guidelines,” he said.”

  236. Quodlibet says

    When I was a little kid, and heard people mention “primitive religions,” I immediately thought of articles from National Geographic, etc. … showing “witch doctors” etc. So I thought that “primitive religions” were practiced by dark-skinned people who lived in grass huts, had total body tattoos and/or paint, piercings, etc., spoke no English (!) and worshipped strange gods that they made up. (That’s badly written.) And that meant that “regular” religion was Western-style Christianity, with church buildings and vestments and chalices and choirs etc., with the pinnacle of “civilized” religion the RCC. (I was not raised Catholic, but I was aware of the “mystery” of the smells and bells, etc.)

    Now I know it’s all ridiculous, with one obvious difference being that “civilized” religions take money from their adherents and spend it on fancy stuff and legal defence.

    Need more caffeine.

  239. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    One person made the distinction between saying, “religions are primitive” and saying “a primitive religion.”

    Absolutely. it is the latter at which I am trying to get. although the question has been implied by many people at various different times, in this case it came from PZ saying that

    <>

    I worry that some will think that Islam is “a primitive religion” means that Xianity is an “advanced religion”. I don’t see any real justification for that. Xianity justifies war to this day – not the least example is the MRFF story about xians teaching air force missile officers that god loves it when they use their nukes to blow up the world.

    I quite happily go to shul at least 1/month, and I get quite a bit out of it, but I don’t fool myself into thinking that Judaism is somehow absent a violent history just because I attend a congregation where we sing (daven) some very old chants & then share some bread, hug each other & connect, which is about as non-violent as you can get…or even because Jews have been & still are targeted for death by others. The fact that I could be targeted for violence simply by walking into a shul on a Friday night does not negate the fact that Israel commits some pretty brutal violence and frequently justifies it using Jewish tradition & theology.

    In any case, many, many atheists/ humanists/ agnostics/ skeptics single out some religions as “primitive” or “more primitive” – even PZ.

    Am I wrong to think that this is wrong? We still seem to be stuck with either “all religions are primitive” or “I’m not really sure, but I know that it certainly evokes the idea of brown-peoples’-religions”.

    The one makes use like the PZ quote above incorrect. The other makes it quite dangerous, and deserving of care in its use…although the second *does* actually beg its use.

  241. IndyM says

    I have to share something that gave me many lulz last night. I got a message from a guy on a dating site. He’s a beefy middle-aged guy, and he looks like the ugly brother of a cross between Chazz Palminteri and Big Pussy Bonpensiero on the Sopranos. His picture has him posed next to a Big Motorcycle. His profile contains the following gems:

    I am unlike any man you have ever met. I am a real man – masculine, handsome, fit, fun, respectful, and 100% Italian-American. I am not a “geek” (why men even define themselves that way I will never know) or a “metrosexual.” While I am looking for a committed girlfriend I am not desperate, lonely, or needy. I have a lot of friends and we do a lot of things such as play Texas hold’em poker, go on my friend’s boat, golf, go out to dinner, and go away – usually to places that have casinos and a night life.

    I don’t care what you are doing with your life, what you are good at, what people notice about you, what books you read, shows you watch, or music you listen to, what you can’t do without, what you think about, and what you do in Friday nights. It’s all about chemistry. Oh, and I love Lean Pockets :)

    In my profile, I explicitly state that I am a liberal progressive feminist, and that one shouldn’t get in touch with me if he’s not the same. (Note: I have a rather glam picture of me on my profile, so it tends to pull all sorts of men. I never look like that in real life, though. Heh heh.)

    His message to me: Oh yea, I can tell you’d be a wild ride :) Mike.

    Any suggestions on how to respond? I was thinking this: Oh yea, based on your profile, you must have an extremely small penis.

    P.S. I personally adore geeks, nerds, bookworms, et al.

  244. Quodlibet says

    IndyM,

    Wow. Just wow. He sounds so….thoughtful. Generous. Considerate. Interested in other people. Great conversationalist. Actually, no conversation at all, from the sounds of it, just “chemistry.”

    Hey, he’s into chemistry! That’s interesting. Ask him if he’s interested in organic chemistry, biochemistry, analytical chemistry, etc.?

    Ask what books he’s read lately and what he thought of them? Who he favors in the 2012 election?

    His answers will give you plenty of reason to say “I don’t think we’d get along.”

    I wonder what sort of woman finds that sort of man attractive…? I guess it would be a woman who is willing to be nothing, say nothing, have no interests…

    ===

    We are a nerdy family and like it that way. Mr Quodlibet endeared himself to me more that usual the other night…I was playing Set over and over and over and over on that site I mentioned last night… He stood watching over my shoulder and said, “I love how smart you are and that you can play Set so well.” xo!

  245. consciousness razor says

    In any case, many, many atheists/ humanists/ agnostics/ skeptics single out some religions as “primitive” or “more primitive” – even PZ.

    Am I wrong to think that this is wrong? We still seem to be stuck with either “all religions are primitive” or “I’m not really sure, but I know that it certainly evokes the idea of brown-peoples’-religions”.

    Well, as broboxley notes, “primitive” isn’t always a bad thing (though if we are using it negatively, that is irrelevant).

    Anyway, I think you’re wrong to think it necessarily refers to “brown-peoples’ religions” or to any well-defined group of religions. As I said, I don’t use the term in that way, but I think people use it inconsistently when they do. I think most of the time I’m not sure what the word is supposed to convey exactly, other than perhaps “old ideas are all bad,” an implication which doesn’t sit well with me.

    Anyway, I haven’t gotten the impression atheists tend to use it for Islam more than Christianity (for example). One might even like to claim Christianity is more “primitive,” given their histories, but I frankly don’t see the point. Religions are all wrong. They’re also unethical. Most are also old. I just don’t think “primitive” is the best word to convey that sort of information.

  246. IndyM says

    @ Quodlibet: I know–he’s a real keeper. I’m already planning the wedding. Btw, I adored your recommendation to ask him about chemistry! I also love that you have a nerdy family. I wish I could find my very own nerd…sigh!

  247. broboxley OT says

    Indy M #241
    “you appear to be looking for a part time punch, I on the other hand am looking for a man”

  248. Quodlibet says

    Primitive can be defined as “relating to, denoting, or preserving an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something” (dictionary.com), in which case a “primitive religion” could be understood simply as a religion which was invented earlier than other religions.

    We know there were many religions invented before christianity was invented, so those earlier ones could be categorized as “primitive”* without any implication, derogatory or other.

    * …and xianity as “secondary? :-)

  249. Ing says

    “geek” (why men even define themselves that way I will never know)

    Because geek is hot damn it!

  250. IndyM says

    @Ing: I AGREE!

    Btw, am I being obtuse, or does #247 make no sense? (I only skimmed the earlier comments, so maybe I missed something.)

  251. Ing says

    @Indy M

    I’m bitchier when it comes to unwanted creeps showing interest.

    Oh yea, I can tell you’d be a wild ride

    Ing: Sure am! Too bad you don’t have a ticket! BLOCK

  252. says

    Benjamin:

    I am within a book’s cost.

    I was afraid that would be the answer; hence, beginning my comment with that disclaimer. However, I would encourage you to be vigilant against letting your current “straightened circumstances” drive your decision-making too much. For instance, I’m guessing the delta between your minimum and maximum book cost is no more than a few hundred per semester. Now, I know “a few hundred per semester” doesn’t sound like a small deal… but it rolls up to no more than a couple thousand for your degree, and if you’re using student loans already, that probably won’t be a huge percentage of your final obligation. Once you’re Dr. Geiger, you’ll no doubt be able to service that debt fairly comfortably, and the extra couple thousand won’t change the equation much (and if you can’t easily service the debt, the extra couple thousand probably won’t change that equation much, either). You’re splurging anyway to do this at all; it doesn’t make sense to short yourself at the edges.

    Oh, BTW: If your fuel costs are $300/mo (which I don’t doubt), consider buying a scooter. I know you feel like you don’t have any money, but you might cut that monthly fuel cost by half or more, and a scooter could pay for itself pretty quickly, and then start freeing up some book money.

  253. Ing says

    @Indy via 247.

    It’s a suggested reply.

    “Oh isn’t that cute…too bad I’m looking for an adult”

  254. Carlie says

    Well sure, IndyM, it would be wild, because he’d get to put you in your place and all and make you understand what you really want is a good big strong man who makes all the decisions rather than all those little sissy-boy liberals. *eyeroll*

  256. Quodlibet says

    I just noticed that little feathers, white and dun-coloured, are drifting down outside my kitchen window. One of our local Cooper’s or Sharp-shinned Hawks must be having breakfast. Looks like feathers from a Mourning Dove. Probably the Cooper’s, then, dining in the big pine tree.

    Two Sharpies were here the other day – I hope they will clean up the burgeoning flock of House Sparrows. We had too many Starlings a few winters ago; a Cooper’s Hawk settled in for a few days and dispatched them all, one by one.

  257. IndyM says

    @Ing: Thanks for the explanation.

    @ Broboxley: Sorry–I got very little sleep last night. I am being obtuse this morning…

  258. Ing says

    @Indy

    My Ubber Nasty idea is a technique I call “The Costanza Ring” after the Seinfeld Episode where George wears a wedding ring to see if it helps him attract women.

    “Oh gee you seem awesome, baby. Exactly the sort of person I’d want to take a ride on (VOOM VOOM! ;) ). But I see you’re looking for a girl friend and I’m just looking for someone to satisfy my girlfriend and I when we want some real man action. Oh well. Block“

  259. IndyM says

    @ Carlie: Exactly. What amazes me is that many of these dingleberries don’t even bother reading my profile. I try to weed out people like this! Or if they do read my profile, they think that their Overwhelming Manliness will leave me speechless and weak in the knees and unable to resist their charms… /ugh

  260. IndyM says

    @Ing: All my coworkers are looking at me because I keep bursting into laughter. I love your suggestions, especially that last one.

  261. serendipitydawg (one headed, mutant spawn of Echidna) says

    “geek” (why men even define themselves that way I will never know)

    Because geek is hot damn it!

    And lest we forget: The geek shall inherit the Earth.

    I’ll get my coat.

  262. Ing says

    @Indy

    I have heard so many funny stories about a few e-mails back and forth before someone goes “Oh I just noticed this very blatant obvious thing you have in your profile! (such as sexual preference or status)” The proper reply would be “Would it be wrong of me to turn someone down for lack of reading comprehension?”

  263. Ing says

    @Serindipitydawg

    Hey tell me Sly McCoy didn’t have a bit of a rotund balding version of the Old Spice Guy thing going for him?

  265. broboxley OT says

    no worries IndyM, Ing translated to english, my version was in language the target would take greater umbrage at.

  266. says

    I’ve read the primitive religion discussion quickly, but I probably haven’t given it the time and attention it deserves. That said….

    I’ve always understood the primitive tag to indicate the difference between something that’s primarily instinctual and emotional versus something that’s systematized and (at least at some level) intellectual. In comparative religion, that would mean the difference between religions based on custom and oral tradition versus those based on a written scripture and some sort of systematized theology.

    Within Christianity, it has to do with differences in the nature of religious belief and religious practice: It’s the difference between preachers who approach the pulpit with a Bible in their hands and those who approach the pulpit with serpents in their hands!

    This doesn’t track to how conservative a sect is, either: Some of the most socially conservative (=repressive) Christian sects are painfully legalistic about scripture and theology. It also doesn’t track to race: When I alluded to snake-handling churches in the previous paragraph, I bet the image that came into your minds was of a white preacher and congregation.

    Of course, from the rationalist POV, it all looks “primitive,” in the sense that it’s all magical thinking, and that strikes us as persistently pre-modern. But even though all religion is founded on irrational premises, within religion itself, there is (IMHO) a meaningful distinction to be made between <style=Rumsfeldian>the rational irrational and the irrational irrational</style>.

  267. serendipitydawg (one headed, mutant spawn of Echidna) says

    @Ing,

    Rotund balding? Checks publicly available pics… realises that I was thinking of Bones and backtracks…

    Sly reminds me of Mr Darcy ;P

  268. IndyM says

    Pharyngulans: thanks for making me laugh on this dreary NYC morning. Now I have to go earn my paycheck…blah.

  269. Carlie says

    I always figured that a “primitive” religion was one that still advocated for physical punishment, and a more “sophisticated” one was one that made the torture entirely mental instead. Not that I see much of a difference.

  271. Quodlibet says

    A large, beautiful, healthy-looking BLACK BEAR was just on the deck in our back yard. He went away rather quickly, too quickly for me to get a photo, but I got a good look at it. It had a large tag on one ear. I called the neighbors to let them know – they said that they and the grandsons had just been about to go out into the yard, so.

    So. Do I have an obligation to report the bear, especially in the light of its having been tagged? My instinct is “no” – I’m delighted to live in company with a variety of animals, and happy to let them go about their business undisturbed, and I will just stay out of their way. But there are good reasons for reporting it, too.

    We live in an old (settled 1650) section of a suburban town in Connecticut (USA) – house lots about 1 acre each. Wood, ponds, agricultural land and forested areas are nearby. We regularly see deer an fox (red and grey) in our yard; coyotes are regulars in nearby areas; and two raccoons had an altercation on the deck at 2 a.m.

  272. Quodlibet says

    Forbidden Snowflake:

    “Sorry, you have to be *this tall* to get on the ride”

    Oh LOL!!!!!

  273. says

    Quodlibet:

    We live in an old (settled 1650) section of a suburban town in Connecticut (USA)

    Oy, we’re neighbors! Whereabouts in CT do you live? I’m in Vernon.

    I know there are at least a couple other Nutmeggers here (‘Tis Himself, for sure, plus I think a few others); maybe we should try to get together a meetup group, similar to what the folks in the Baltimore-Washington area have done?

  275. Rey Fox says

    Sure am! Too bad you don’t have a ticket!

    I’d be wary of any responses that might make him think that you’re “playing hard to get”. I like the chemistry suggestion. Pull out as many technical terms as you can. Play with his mind a little before telling him that it won’t work out because you’re a lady and he’s a douchebag.

  276. consciousness razor says

    I’ve always understood the primitive tag to indicate the difference between something that’s primarily instinctual and emotional versus something that’s systematized and (at least at some level) intellectual.

    Then it refers a false dichotomy. I instinctually and emotionally systematize my intellect (what intellect I have at least). No, really, I do, and I think most of us here, when it comes to issues we care about, don’t act like Spock-like p-zombies who are busily systematizing our knowledge. Generally, I’d claim that if one doesn’t care about whatever there is to learn, then one probably won’t learn much about it.

    In comparative religion, that would mean the difference between religions based on custom and oral tradition versus those based on a written scripture and some sort of systematized theology.

    In that case, Islam is a highly-“advanced” religion, considering the importance of the Koran. Still, I would have to object to that, not because I consider Islam any better or worse. My issue is this: what difference is there in a non-literate religion (that you’d call “primitive”) which doesn’t advocate hatred and violence or invent utterly bizarre cosmologies, and a literate one which does? This makes it somehow more “intellectual”?

    If that’s a worthwhile classification, then it has to do with a difference in literacy, not primitiveness, and that is the word we should use if that is the distinction we are trying to make. It carries no racial baggage and is otherwise hard to misinterpret. I’ll also note that, while literacy is extremely important, being literate is not the same as being intellectual. There’s a vast amount of difference between someone who only reads the Bible and a true intellectual (trademark that if you like).

    But even though all religion is founded on irrational premises, within religion itself, there is (IMHO) a meaningful distinction to be made between <style=Rumsfeldian>the rational irrational and the irrational irrational</style>.

    Having to channel Rumsfeld should give you an indication of how much sense that makes. I don’t know what you mean. I’m just going to say that.

  278. Quodlibet says

    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage – Getting together is a great idea…but I am too shy. Seriously. I like being here anonymously. But thank you – your invitation is so friendly, and I appreciate that.

  279. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Bill:

    I guess you’ve got a point.

    As far as the scooter idea goes: I actually own a scooter. (I won it in a drawing.) It’s got a top speed of about 35MPH, so it doesn’t do me much good; if I tried to ride it to campus I’d end up as road pizza, not to mention that I’d need to fill the tank every trip. (60MPG, one gallon tank.)

    But my cunning plan to reduce my fuel cost is this: move. I’m looking at an apartment about 2 miles from campus (and I almost certainly can ride my scooter from there), but the logistics are a bit difficult. Translation: I’ve got too much stuff.

  280. says

    Carlie:

    I wasn’t thinking of it in terms of punishment… not every religion emphasizes punishment (including eternal punshishment: many denominations doubt the existence of Hell, or at least treat it with benign neglect and vagueness). I was thinking, instead, of the (arguably false, but nevertheless pervasive) dichotomy between the intellectual and the “spiritual” (where that term has values beyond any merely theological/supernatural definition).

    I imagine it as analogous to the distinction between fine art and primitive (or folk) art: The former is purposeful and driven by intention (yes, even Jackson Pollock!) while the latter is unlettered and instinctual. Of course, that’s a false binary: “Fine” artists may be more or less instinctual, and “primitive” or “folk” artists may be more or less trained and purposeful… but from the 30,000-ft view (as my colleagues in aerospace tend to put it), it’s a not-unuseful taxonomy.

  281. Dianne says

    But my cunning plan to reduce my fuel cost is this: move. I’m looking at an apartment about 2 miles from campus (and I almost certainly can ride my scooter from there), but the logistics are a bit difficult. Translation: I’ve got too much stuff.

    Good idea. But forget the scooter, get a bicycle. A good bicycle can get 50 miles per cookie. Also stuff can be gotten rid of with a certain level of effort. (Moving to a smaller place myself. Partner and I are playing good cop/bad cop with each other about what to keep…I think I’m winning because I’ve convinced him to throw more stuff out than he’s convinced me. But he’s got more stuff to start with so it’s hard to say.)

  282. consciousness razor says

    Of course, that’s a false binary: “Fine” artists may be more or less instinctual, and “primitive” or “folk” artists may be more or less trained and purposeful… but from the 30,000-ft view (as my colleagues in aerospace tend to put it), it’s a not-unuseful taxonomy.

    Are you trying to get on my nerves? ;)

    For what is it useful (or not-unuseful, if you insist) from the 30,000-ft view? Am I to assume those at such heights have an objective viewpoint?

  284. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    “A good bicycle can get 50 miles per cookie.”

    True, but it doesn’t do me much good when I arrive dripping with sweat and have to stand in front of a class teaching for two hours. A scooter, at least, goes fast enough to provide what my brother refers to as “WD-40 air conditioning”: “windows down, 40 MPH”.

  285. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Oh, and I currently live about 2 miles from where I used to work. I tried biking to work once.

    I got halfway there. Eventually I called my coworker and asked him to pick me up.

  287. Dianne says

    A scooter, at least, goes fast enough to provide what my brother refers to as “WD-40 air conditioning”: “windows down, 40 MPH”.

    Sigh. The joys of summer. I get away with it by doing paperwork for an hour in an air conditioned building before coming into contact with any IRL people.

  288. Benjamin "van Driessen" Geiger says

    Dianne:

    1. “Summer”, here, lasts from about February through November.

    2. If I let sweat dry, it just stinks more.

  289. serendipitydawg (one headed, mutant spawn of Echidna) says

    $3.60 per gallon? Sigh. Try £1.36 a litre, I think that comes out at around $8.40 per US gallon.

    The annoying thing is that it is mostly tax of one sort or another (and why do they add excise duty and then add VAT based on that total? I don’t see excise duty as adding value.)

  290. says

    consciousness razor:

    Then it refers a false dichotomy.

    IMHO, almost every distinction can be reduced to a false dichotomy, viewed from the right position. That does not, however, mean that distinctions don’t exist in people’s minds, nor does it mean that those distinctions are not useful. It seems to me that the very essence of the human experience consists of dividing a vast, undifferentiated (i.e., lacking “natural” categorical boundaries) universe into a categorical structure that is always in some sense arbitrary. The proper question is not whether this categorization it true or false, but whether it is, in each instance, useful.

    But I digress…. I don’t mean to make this a philosophical debate, especially since I’m a primitive (i.e., unlettered, instinctual) philosopher! ;^)

    In that case, Islam is a highly-”advanced” religion, considering the importance of the Koran. Still, I would have to object to that, not because I consider Islam any better or worse.

    Yes, of course, Islam is the opposite of primitive (I dislike advanced as an antonym, but can’t think of a better term off the top of my head). The distinction I’m making explicitly has nothing to do with how progressive or repressive (“better” or “worse,” if you will) a given religion’s (or sect’s or denomination’s) social policies or political agenda might be. Instead, it’s about the personal character of their practice: Does it come from the mind, interpreting the word, or is does it come from the “heart,” instinctually responding to the unintellectualized “experience” of the divine? Some Christian worship services are nearly indistinguishable from a graduate seminar (except that the subject matter is metaphysical bullshit… oh, wait…), while others are nearly indistinguishable from an orgy (except for the lack of actual sex). Of course, most mainstream religions fall somewhere in between, but this tension between intellectualizing faith and surrendering to the “spirit” is always there in religion; if we care about understanding the religious experience (and we should care, if we’re interested in building a more secular world), it’s a distinction worth looking at.

    If that’s a worthwhile classification, then it has to do with a difference in literacy, not primitiveness, and that is the word we should use if that is the distinction we are trying to make.

    No, you fundamentally misunderstand the distinction I’m making, which is not about capability to understand and use “the word” (i.e., literacy), but about how much relative importance one places on “the word.” It’s a difference in values, not in competencies: I’m emphatically not saying that “primitive” believers (or artists) are stupid or incapable; just that they choose to rely on a different toolbox for their expressions (whether of faith or art).

    Having to channel Rumsfeld should give you an indication of how much sense that makes.

    A common error. Rumsfeld is an execrable human being — arguably a war criminal — but that rap about “known unknowns and unknown unknowns,” which I was channeling and for which he’s been so pitilessly mocked, is probably the most sensible thing he ever said. In fact, it’s not original with him: Development engineers use some version of that formulation all the time, to express the fact that at the beginning of a project, there will be some things you know in advance that you don’t know (and thus, can plan to investigate), and there will also be things that you discover in the course of the project that you didn’t know (hence, from the prospective perspective, “unknown unknowns”), and will have to adapt the development plan on the fly to accommodate.

    The comparison to religion is that there are things believers do and say that are irrational in ways that are more or less predictable, because they grow out of an essentially rational approach to their irrational premises, and there are things that other believers do and say that are irrational in ways that are far less understandable, because they don’t grow out of any premises at all, except for a (dare I say it?) primitive emotional experience. These different modes of belief have, I think, something to say about how we secular people do (and should) react to believers.

  291. SteveV says

    …and why do they add excise duty and then add VAT…?

    Because They Can©
    They only do it to annoy.

  292. strange gods before me says

    One can hypothesize a non-interventionist Deism informed by Darwinian thought—our Creator is not supernatural, but an animal or the robotic descendent of an animal which evolved in another universe or outside of our simulation—and use Nick Bostrom’s methods to argue that this is the most likely scenario, much more likely than typical atheist scenarios.

    This involves no magical thinking, and thus breaks the categorical statement that religion equals magical thinking equals primitive.

  293. The Lone Coyote says

    I made an atlatl last night. I’m more primitiver than thou. Now I gotta go, if I don’t sacrifice this rooster, the sun might not rise, and we can’t have that.

  294. Owlmirror says

    His message to me: Oh yea, I can tell you’d be a wild ride :) Mike.

    Any suggestions on how to respond?

    <evil>
    Hi, I think you’re a bit confused. I am (a) human and (b) female.

    If you’re looking for a wild ride, I suggest you find a stallion.
    </evil>

  295. serendipitydawg (one headed, mutant spawn of Echidna) says

    @steveV

    Because They Can©
    They only do it to annoy.

    So true. They do the same with import duty… add the duty, then add 20% VAT.

    Has Barb disappeared? I was enjoying the Beck thread, despite not having time to keep up.

  296. cicely says

    Morning, all.
    –

    Can I be in the Short Dual Wielding Murderer department?

    :D
    –

    My wireless is out, I’ll be gone for a few days. Later, all.

    :(

    Be well.
    –
    *hugs* for Classical Cipher. It seems as if stressors hunt in packs, doesn’t it? :)
    –

  297. says

    consciousness razor:

    Are you trying to get on my nerves? ;)

    Nah, you’ve got me confused with somebody else. I’m never trying to get on anyone’s nerves (isn’t that the definition of trolling?); I just get lucky sometimes.

    For what is it useful (or not-unuseful, if you insist) from the 30,000-ft view? Am I to assume those at such heights have an objective viewpoint?

    I think I pretty much answered this in my previous response, and if not, I guess I don’t have an answer that will satisfy you. I will just say that the world is full of false dichotomies that are broadly held: The fact that you know they’re false doesn’t mean you won’t need to understand them and deal with them.

    FWIW, I stand fully behind “not-unuseful”; the double-negative construction adds (as it so often does) a subtle extra layer of meaning. It encapsulates a whole little chunk of conversation in a couple of prefixes.

  298. Owlmirror says

    One can hypothesize a non-interventionist Deism informed by Darwinian thought—our Creator is not supernatural, but an animal or the robotic descendent of an animal which evolved in another universe or outside of our simulation

    Calculating God, by Robert Sawyer. More or less.

  299. theophontes says

    @ Crip Dyke #210 et al [“primitive” religion]

    Oops I posted my responses over at teh other thread. They are very long, so I’ll link rather than repost:

    Link 1 :(My original post: Frazer’s “…from magic through religion to science.” and advanced (in serving human needs … which was the original intention of both magic and religion) religion : “In essence a religion that peaceably ceases to be a religion and re-engages its (former) adherents with the real world.”)

    and Link 2 : (Discussion of above and some examples.)

    If using the term “advanced” from a perspective of religions themselves then “primitive” merely translates into “less delusional”.

  301. onion girl says

    *pops in briefly*
    For the DCish Locals:


    August Smithsonian Trip – Udvar-Hazy Air & Space Musuem

    Date: Saturday, August 27th

    Time: Museum opens at 10am, there are two options for when to meet
    Option 1: Noon
    Option 2: 10am to attend a free Planetarium show at 10:30am
    Dinner at 4:30pm
    Harry Potter IMAX (optional) at 6:30pm

    Cost:
    Museum is free; parking is $15
    Harry Potter is $15, but if you attend the show, parking is free

    Transportation: Carpool options possible

    Restaurant Choices:
    Thai Basil – Thai

    Don Churro Cafe – Spanish/South American

    Otani – Japanese Steakhouse (hibachi & sushi)

    Minerva’s Cuisine – Indian

    Please let me know:
    1. Are you coming at 10am to attend the Planetarium show or meeting at noon?
    2. Where would you like to go to dinner?
    3. Are you planning to attend Harry Potter?
    4. Are you driving separately or willing to carpool? If so, where are you coming from?

    Email me at oniongirlsays at google mail dot com, because I’m barely managing to keep with up Pharyngula at the moment. :)

  303. Tethys says

    hey thread,

    If there is a news story from Minnesota in the next few days with the headline “Deranged Women Snaps and Kills Roofing Contractor” that will be me.

    He just gave me a bid and proceeded to “compliment” me on my breast size, and then denigrated my neighbors (to me) for their poor choices in being born non-white.

    Needless to say, he will not win the bid. But I’m now having rather violent fantasies involving cutting his safety line.

  306. says

    Tethys

    He just gave me a bid and proceeded to “compliment” me on my breast size, and then denigrated my neighbors (to me) for their poor choices in being born non-white.

    That sounds very aggravating . . . sigh I feel for you.

  307. Carlie says

    You should be sure to let him know if the person you did hire had a higher bid, and that they got it anyway for not being a jackass.

  308. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I said at one point:

    <>

    Unfortunate choice of words. (some?) People thought I was saying “fundamentally” or “at heart” primitive is a racist synonym.

    The statement above was in a context where I was saying, “best case, the word primitive functions like X, bad case, it functions like Y, worst case, it’s racist”

    I specifically said that I didn’t think that PZ was using it in a racist way, in part AFAIK because he just seems to drop the word whenever he’s feeling particularly upset, and so the more he talks about people, the more [in a non-scientific sample based on my general impressions] he drops the p bomb, because he likes talking about the people that make him upset. It **happened** tom come up yesterday w/ Islam, but I’m sure I’ve seen it several times in regards to white xians.

    I quite appreciate people taking the question seriously.

    One thing about the answers we have so far, I’m not seeing any that stand out to me as likely to describe how I’ve actually seen the word used on popular blogs and/or published articles.

    I find animism to be by far the most compelling of all religions. We often needlessly subdivide it, saying that people in different locales have different nature gods, but animism is the belief that there is a magical consciousness in pretty much everything…or, in some versions, a magical “specialness” which is not necessarily conscious. Saying there’s something special about each & every thing in the universe, which is close to the diluted claim of animism, is, IMNSHO, frickin’ true. That specialness doesn’t entitle it to act outside the laws of the universe (that’s why they’re called LAWS, fer gosh sake), but I have no problem with everything is special. Anyway, the point is that in different areas you have different “gods” in animist systems because in different areas you have different *things*. My mountain god diff from yours? Well we do live by different mountains? That sort of thing. Anyway, but whether all animism is one religion is neither here nor there. But anyway, there are highly systematized animisms. Taoism, Shinto, & more.

    So…..but anyway, the point is that animism gets called a primitive religion all the time, but I don’t see what’s primitive about it.

    Then there’s the distinction that I love that was said by someone here that “primitive” means you still rely on physical punishment.

    Of course, that assumes that all religions begin life relying on physical punishment.

    So, there’s interesting discussion going on, but it doesn’t yet tell me why we as a community are using the word primitive in the way we’re using it.

    There are some decent proposals on how we might or can use it, but correct me if I’m wrong, y’all, no one seems to be saying, “I have had a system to tell the difference for some time. This is what it is. This is how it works. This is which of the major religions fit.

    Not trying to make all y’all who have been writing start over. Just trying to sum where I think we might be…if I’m reading things correctly.

  309. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    —our Creator is not supernatural, but an animal or the robotic descendent of an animal which evolved in another universe or outside of our simulation.

    Calculating God, by Robert Sawyer. More or less.

    Also the Futurama episode “A Clockwork Origin”.

    More or less. ;)

  311. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    the post above has a missing line that is very important. Sorry.

    It should say (at the very beginning):

    I said at one point:

    “At rock bottom, primitive is a racist synonym for folk from countries in the process of urbanizing.”

    ………………………….

    now you may continue wi/ the words:

    Unfortunate choice of words.

    ———————–
    sorry about all that! format fail.

  313. broboxley OT says

    on atmospheric carbon loading by man, every little bit helps
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2011/08/110811-turning-carbon-emissions-into-fuel/

    Elton’s firm, Carbon Sciences, focuses on the post-collection phase: turning carbon into fuel. It does this by combining CO2 with natural gas in the presence of a proprietary metallic catalyst it has developed and licensed. (The company says it is made of the common metals, nickel and cobalt, supported by aluminum and magnesium.)

    Carbon Sciences says its test facility is successfully melding CO2 with methane (the primary constituent of natural gas) to produce a syngas that can be converted into ordinary fuels.

    The process of turning syngas into transportation fuel is a well-established technology, and there are already commercial gas-to-liquids facilities in the world. But those processes rely on steam or oxidation to produce the syngas. Carbon Sciences argues that its process—CO2 reforming, or dry reforming, of natural gas—would be a game changer because it would produce fuel while using up waste CO2 that otherwise would be emitted to the atmosphere. Also, says Elton, using readily available CO2 as a reactant should make capital and operating costs significantly lower than current commercial approaches that use oxygen, since that’s expensive and capital-intensive.

    “We believe our approach will be the key to cost-effective transformation of greenhouse gases to fuel on a global scale,” he says.

    Although there have been efforts at dry reforming in the past, Carbon Sciences says its catalyst is uniquely robust and able to stand up to the harsh industrial process of making the fuel. The catalyst also is comprised of more affordable and abundant metals than those used in earlier efforts.

    Of course, because the fuel produced will be a drop-in replacement for ordinary gasoline and diesel, driving will still release CO2 to the atmosphere. But Elton says there are significant advantages in using recycled fuel. “The carbon . . . is used twice, instead of it going into the air,” he says. “It also finally addresses the issue of energy security”—as the fuel can be made domestically from two abundant resources in the United States—CO2 and natural gas.

  314. says

    Crip Dyke:

    So, there’s interesting discussion going on, but it doesn’t yet tell me why we as a community are using the word primitive in the way we’re using it.

    FWIW, I generally don’t use the word: My comments have been about the distinction I’ve understood others to be making when they use the word. By the definition I’ve been using, animism would, indeed, be primitive… but that would in no way be an inherent insult. I have known Christian who proudly self-labelled as primitive, claiming that the unfiltered spiritual experience is a more authentic relationship with God than any codified, scriptualized, denominational worship could possibly be.

    From a rational humanist POV, you could make a similar case: Attempting to rationalize and systematize something that’s fundamentally irrational is arguably a less honest way to live than simply accepting the raw “magic.”

    PS: Keep in mind that I didn’t see the beginning of this on the other thread; I’ve just been replying to what I’ve seen here.

  316. says

    ““Summer”, here, lasts from about February through November.”

    “The winter is forbidden till December
    And exits March the second on the dot.”

    ++++++++++++++++++
    John Morales, IRT the Australian Football Team stuff. I liked the gender slur rules and the apology read sincerely.That’s amazing.

    I’m pretty sure making slurs about an opponent’s mum is required in the NFL.

  317. consciousness razor says

    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage, #290:
    Thanks for clarifying your argument.

    That does not, however, mean that distinctions don’t exist in people’s minds, nor does it mean that those distinctions are not useful.

    I wasn’t denying they exist in people’s minds. But again, I have to ask: useful for what? Does it have any negative effect for those who don’t find it “useful”? I think in this case (referring here to both “primitive religion” and “primitive art”) it does, as in the case of “brown peoples’ religions” being characterized as “primitive,” for example. We shouldn’t perpetuate that. I know that isn’t what you are referring to, but you should find it less useful given the knowledge that others do use the term that way. Perhaps “instinctual” or “emotional” are a better fit anyway (though they’re still not a very good fit), and they have the added benefit of not carrying the same sort baggage as “primitive.”

    Instead, it’s about the personal character of their practice: Does it come from the mind, interpreting the word, or is does it come from the “heart,” instinctually responding to the unintellectualized “experience” of the divine?

    Fine, aside from this nonsensical difference between “mind” and “heart,” I just hope you realize that for many people it does mean “savage” or “uncivilized,” like a caveman or a non-human primate; or for bigots it means “brown people” or other marginalized groups. So it can be a problematic term if it isn’t used carefully, with that in mind.

    I’m emphatically not saying that “primitive” believers (or artists) are stupid or incapable; just that they choose to rely on a different toolbox for their expressions (whether of faith or art).

    I think this is mostly a matter of degree, not kind. Anyway, I had the impression you were making a value judgment (if ever so slight) in favor of those are “non-primitive.” Correct me if I’m wrong.

    The comparison to religion is that there are things believers do and say that are irrational in ways that are more or less predictable, because they grow out of an essentially rational approach to their irrational premises, and there are things that other believers do and say that are irrational in ways that are far less understandable, because they don’t grow out of any premises at all, except for a (dare I say it?) primitive emotional experience.

    I don’t think it’s an apt comparison to the Rumsfeld quote, but that’s not important. First, I would dispute that the “non-primitive” religionists use a rational approach. They apply “logic” and so on, but the only rational approach one can take to irrational premises is to reject the irrational premises. If you can’t tell the difference between a valid argument (or worse, an invalid one) and a sound argument, you are not using a rational approach. The sophistimicated religionists aren’t using such an approach because of (you guessed it) emotional reasons.

    Also, I think you’re underestimating the number and complexity of premises involved in a typical religious “primitive emotional experience” (which I maintain can be found in religions of all kinds). People don’t generally have emotions in the absence of having something to think about. They may tell myths about it, or dance with snakes because of it, or write long philosophical treatises on the subject. It all requires intellectual and emotional involvement. From the big, 30,000-ft view you were talking about, they’re all having similar experiences and making art about it, are they not? So what’s the difference?

  318. says

    Gyeong Hwa says:
    16 August 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Apropos of nothing, but I’m eating “oriental” flavored ramen, which is the most redundant and vague description ever.

    And Soylent Green is made of people.

  319. says

    Apropos of nothing, but I’m eating “oriental” flavored ramen….

    Weren’t you the one asking me what Asians taste like? ;^)

    Ay yes, but I forget that I’ve tasted other Asians before . . . ;)

  320. Birger Johansson says

    @226: “I can bake you cookies! Where will that get me in the eyes of God-king?”

    Zardoz is pleased!

  321. opposablethumbs, que le pouce enragé mette les pouces says

    Tethys, at least you found out what kind of person this was without having accepted a bid first! That would have been even worse.

    I wonder if this kind of attitude loses him a lot of business … or if some people actually like it (feh).

    Carlie is right, maybe he’d think for a nanosecond if he actually knew he’d lost a job over it (maybe).

    Maybe he should get together with the 100% Italian-American “Real Man” who was after IndyM; they sound like a match made in heaven …

  322. Tethys says

    I was looking forward to a lovely afternoon of mowing the lawn and weeding my gardens.

    But now that misogynist/racist roofer is working across the street I am hiding in my house being really upset, and completely creeped out.

    If I had a burqa I would put it on and go mow the lawn while flipping him off.

  324. says

    Crip Dyke:

    Re the racial aspect of the discussion, I don’t assume that primitive religions = religions of “primitive” people. I don’t pretend to have any data on the point, but the self-identified “primitive” Christians I’ve known have been white, and members of white congregations: Personally, I haven’t experienced that distinction correlating to race, at least in the U.S.

    Around the world, there’s the Guns, Germs, and Steel dilemma to deal with: How to come up with a nonracist answer to the question, “Why do whites get all the cargo?”. I suspect that more naturalistic (primitive, if you will) belief systems are inherently challenged in technologically advanced cultures… especially where it’s information technology that’s advanced: In cultures dominated by words and systems, it’s perhaps not surprising that belief systems that are systematized and word-based tend to predominate over more “naturalistic” ones?

    So, per Guns, Germs, and Steel, the relative global distribution of primitive and nonprimitive religions is ultimately based on geography, and on the distribution of domesticable plants and animals in the ancient world? Just a thought….

  325. Mr. Fire says

    Okay, I’d like to cross-post an applied math puzzle that I left on the Flat Earth Thread, in case anyone here likes differential equation puzzles with their coffee:

    Two point masses (i.e., of negligible size), each of mass m, lie a distance d apart in deep space (that is to say, assume all external gravitational effects on the system are negligible).

    The two objects are stationary with respect to each other at time t = 0.

    – Can you set up and solve a differential equation that will express the amount of time t, in terms of d and m (along with any associated constants), that it will take for these two objects to collide, under no forces other than than their own mutual gravitational attraction?

  326. Ctenotrish says

    Ahoy TET! Between a busy weekend and playing catch-up at work, I am more than a bit behind on reading various threads and comments. So please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere … what is the deal with the FTB front page and the front pages of each of the FTB bloggers? Every time I check in to the ‘main’ Pharyngula page, I get PZ’s Schadenfreude post, with the same set of comments. I am currently navigating Pharyngula by bookmarking the last post I read, then tracking forward, which works well so long as you don’t get stuck on the Rock Beyond Belief post. So is this just me, or is this a problem still on the FTB to-do list?

  327. strange gods before me says

    Sili

    I miss the “jump to end” link. It takes forever to sneak a peek on my phone now.

    It would be nice to one it more visibly saying “jump to end” but basically there already is one. It’s the link at the bottom of each original post that says:

    “You can leave a response …

  329. Richard Austin says

    Crip Dyke,

    There are some decent proposals on how we might or can use it, but correct me if I’m wrong, y’all, no one seems to be saying, “I have had a system to tell the difference for some time. This is what it is. This is how it works. This is which of the major religions fit.

    Actually, what you’ve had is quite a few people who have said that all religions are primitive by definition – which would seem to answer your explicit question.

    For myself, I don’t know that I’ve ever used the word “primitive” to define a religion. I tend to approach “primitive” as distinguishing between “industrial” and “non-industrial”, though I admit that’s not necessarily precise or exact by any means; it simply seems to have sufficient overlap with most other people’s definitions as to be situationally useful.

    If we look at the non-specific dictionary definitions, “primitive” means:

    1.Not derived from something else; primary or basic.
    2.Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval.
    3.Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.
    4.Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons. See Synonyms at rude.
    5.(Anthropology) Of or relating to a nonindustrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by a low level of economic complexity: primitive societies.
    … (other more technical definitions for specific fields)

    So, my gut-reaction definition of “primitive” would proabbly be related to (5), which is the anthropological one.

    All of these apply to the Abrahamic religions, with varying degress on some points (for example, the Vatican has made a lot of changes to Catholicism over the years, though the roots of the religion are still the same). (4) is probably as close to the connotative definition you’re implying as the most important, but I’m not sure you’re accurate in that implication. Remember, a lot of people here are scientists (many in official capacities, most in unofficial capacities): specific technical use of words isn’t uncommon.

    Yes, it is the responibility of the communicator to manage how xe is interpreted, at least within reason. It’s a potential point to argue that one might wish to avoid the word “primitive” and the negative connotation you (and perhaps others) perceived. But that’s a more specific discussion and probably more useful than arguing definitions with people who, for the most part, don’t actively use the word in the context you wish to discuss.

  330. Richard Austin says

    BTW, for those with caching problems (and I’ve had a few myself, even in IE), you should be able to do a ctrl-F5 to force a refresh of the page (and bypass the cache), rather than clearing the cache every time.

  332. strange gods before me says

    BTW, for those with caching problems (and I’ve had a few myself, even in IE), you should be able to do a ctrl-F5 to force a refresh of the page (and bypass the cache), rather than clearing the cache every time.

    Good luck to those for whom this works, but it hasn’t worked for me. Makes me wonder if something is getting stuck in squid proxies along the way (and it’s why I’m recommending the RSS feeds in addition to local cache fiddling).

  334. Patricia, OM says

    Hi All, I survived being scraped, bored, clamped and punched three times. One thing I guess the catholics do know about is how to try and save the ol’ baby factory.

    The local was the much dreaded lidocaine. But things have changed, they now can “buffer” it. So it goes from blow torch to a bee sting. That’s good news.

    The other good news is that the Sisters of the Child Molesters took my crappy insurance graciously.

    Results in a week or so. ;)

  335. says

    Hello, this is my day’s window on the ‘net, I don’t know how long I can stay connected, but there is a right misogynistic cupcake of an idiot on the Canadians thread.

    I know my connection is going to die at some point or another, so keep the fangs sniny! :)

  337. Patricia, OM says

    Caine – Thanks! I was really suprised at the vast improvement buffering lidocaine made. Hopefully this will take some of the scare out of it for others. Huzzah for science!

    Off to work.

  338. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Mr. Fire: I’m ashamed to admit that I can set it up, but seem to get stuck with a bloody bastard of a separable equation at some point of the solution.

  339. says

    Patricia, I’m so happy you got anesthetic this time. I hated your original Doc. (Nobody gets to hurt my friends!) (Well, they do, but I don’t have to like it.)
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    I’m currently listening to my iPod:
    Sweet Jane – Lou Reed
    Imagine – instrumental by Chet Atkins & Mark Knopfler (sp?)

  340. says

    consciousness razor:

    First, I had to leave my desk for a meeting, and it’s possible that after I post this, I’ll find that the conversation has moved on. If so, sorry: This is my intellectual time machine, flashing you all the way back to my initial reaction from a little more than an hour ago.

    Second, please note that I am not advocating for the use of “primitive”. I have been trying to understand the term as I’ve heard it used by Christians of my acquaintance; as I said in one of my responses to Crip Dyke, I don’t tend to use the term myself. That doesn’t mean I’m not interested in observing it in its natural habitat.

    That said:

    I wasn’t denying [that distinctions] exist in people’s minds. But again, I have to ask: useful for what?

    I don’t suggest all distinctions are useful, of course; rather, I was suggesting that in many cases, useful/not useful is a better standard to apply than false/not false. In addition, I think it’s almost always useful to at least understand distinctions that are widely held within the culture we inhabit, even when we think those distinctions themselves are neither intrinsically useful nor true.

    Fine, aside from this nonsensical difference between “mind” and “heart,” I just hope you realize that for many people it does mean “savage” or “uncivilized,”

    I’m mindful of the troublesome history of the word primitive itself (see also above, where I point out, and not for the first time, that I don’t use the term), but if you think most people map mind to civilized and heart to savage, I think you’re applying a pro-Enlightenment bias (which I share, BTW) that is not shared by large numbers of the people you live among.

    Many, many people think the distinction between head and heart is anything but “nonsensical,” and many of those people attribute to heart the superior mode of being. The people I’m thinking of consider reliance on mind an attribute of human vanity, a challenge to the authority of God, and think heart represents a truer, less “innately depraved,” connection with nature and/or the divine. You and I — along with probably nearly all the regulars here — no doubt think that’s crazy… but that doesn’t matter, because those people are all around us, and they fucking vote!

    Understanding this stuff is “useful,” not because I give it any creedence, but because I need to know my “enemy”: IMHO, the worldview I’ve described is deep at the (you should excuse the word) heart of both the religiosity and the ingrained anti-intellectualism of conservative politics in the U.S. We ignore it… or belittle it… or fail to understand it… at our distinct peril.

    Anyway, I had the impression you were making a value judgment (if ever so slight) in favor of those are “non-primitive.” Correct me if I’m wrong.

    You’re wrong. I think all modes of religious belief are misguided, so I wouldn’t bother making a value judgment between them. I was, instead, describing the head versus heart value judgment I’ve sometimes observed religious people themselves making… and by and large, that value judgment has been in favor of “heart” (aka “primitive”), not against it.

    As a practical matter, I’m happier to live with the behavior of people who are primarily guided by rationality than with the behavior of those who are primarily guided by irrationality. If you want to call me out for that “value judgment,” knock yourself out, but… [a] it has nothing to do with skin color and [b] from what you’ve said, I grok you agree with me on that point.

    First, I would dispute that the “non-primitive” religionists use a rational approach. They apply “logic” and so on…

    Yeah, that was my point, but…

    …but the only rational approach one can take to irrational premises is to reject the irrational premises.

    …you’re trapped in your external POV. You’re implicitly insisting that everyone is either fully rational or fully irrational. In my experience, though, nearly everybody is some mix (hence my use of primarily above), and plenty of people start from irrational premises (often ones they’ve inherited from family or cultural heritage) but otherwise operate largely rationally. Other people, OTOH, carve out areas of their lives in which they make no pretense of behaving rationally. The reason it’s important — useful, in fact — to recognize the difference is that if we have any interest in changing (or even mitigating, for that matter) their behavior, our best course of action will be different depending on the premises (or lack thereof) our “targets” are working from.

    If you can’t tell the difference between a valid argument (or worse, an invalid one) and a sound argument,

    A valid argument may lead to an invalid conclusion if it’s based on an invalid predicate assumption… and the person making the argument will only recognize the conclusion as invalid if they first recognize the assumption as invalid. Thus, the non-primitive religionists (to use the terminology I don’t really want to use) are susceptible to deconversion by challenging their predicate assumptions, and they’re potentially rational allies on social issues that can be segregated from religion. Primitive (charismatic, perhaps? Or ecstatic?) religionists, OTOH, are probably beyond persuasion, and the only way to limit their societal damage is to simply beat them in the voting booth.

    Anyway, I just jumped in here because I thought it was an intellectually stimulating question. I don’t own any stock in the word primitive, and I don’t feel strongly enough about any of this to have an actual fight about it. Since I think I’ve said everything cogent (or maybe not; you be the judge) I have to say, I think I’ll (attempt to) leave it there.

  341. Mr. Fire says

    Forbidden Snowflake: I’m ashamed to admit that I longer have the skillz to solve it either – I did it almost fiteen years ago, and it’s pretty fucking devious. I know the end result, (because I was inordinately proud of myself for getting it), and I know you have to insert dummy variables in there at least once (involving either a hyperbolic or trigonometric function? I can’t remember).

    The funny thing is, it’s very similar to the expression you get if you use the old s = ut + 1/2at^2, which I do not believe correctly accounts for the variability.

  342. cicely says

    Patricia, I’m happy to hear that your scraping, boring, clamping and punching went well, and that you got to have pain relief this time around.
    –

  343. Owlmirror says

    3.Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.

    I’m a little uneasy about this definition.

    It’s a term of art among evolutionary biologists/zoologists, though. It’s just shorthand for a biological feature that has changed little among all of the descendants of some common ancestor. Contrast with “derived”, which means “has changed a lot compared to ancestral groups and other descendants of the same ancestral group”.

    Let’s see, an example might be (because I was looking it up the other day): The connection between the fibula and tibia is primitive in Theropoda (that is, all theropod dinosaurs have that diagnostic anatomical feature), while the pygostyle tail is a highly derived feature in Neornithes (all modern birds).

    Of course, it’s also a relative term: the connected tibiofibula in theropods is highly derived when compared to the more primitive condition of separate tibia and fibula in other vertebrates.

  344. Ing says

    @Rey

    You missed the ending with “blocking and never getting any more messages or talking to them again.”

  345. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Mr. Fire: of course, the standard old equation is for acceleration under constant force.
    I did insert a dummy variable, and went pretty far with the solution, but, once again, got stuck in the f(x)dx=dt stage, just ’cause the f(x) is a nasty one.

  347. Sili says

    It would be nice to one it more visibly saying “jump to end” but basically there already is one. It’s the link at the bottom of each original post that says:

    “You can leave a response …

    Thanks …

  349. Quodlibet says

    Wow, the slugfest over at the Canadian thread is pretty intense. I had to wipe my feet when I left.

    *makes popcorn, grabs a beer, and heads back over*

  350. Sili says

    Glad to hear the RCC was good for something for once, Patricia.

    Hope you enjoy the hog.

  351. says

    Utah should just change its slogan to “The Snake Oil State.”

    Some proposed new regulations have the sellers of “supplements” up in arms.

    The basic idea behind a revised FDA plan is that makers of dietary supplements should be required to comply with stricter laws when it comes to reporting the “ingredients” of all the snake oil concoctions that are on the market. Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say that the FDA has decided the snake-oil manufacturers should just start complying with laws that already on the books for starters.

    In 1994 a law was passed that said anything sold earlier than that year would be grandfathered in as safe (that was done with the help of Orrin Hatch), but that if companies created new products, or if they added new ingredients to old products, they’d have to pass a Food and Drug Administration safety review.

    Surprise, surprise. The MLM and pyramid-scheme scam artists in Utah have submitted only a tiny fraction of their new products for review. They say they’re not new.

    According to the FDA, about 4,000 dietary supplements were marketed in 1994. Now there are about 55,000 dietary supplements marketed in the USA. Of that 55,000, only 700 submitted new-ingredient or new-product files to the FDA for review. 700 out of 55,000 — does that make sense?

    Senator Orrin Hatch, who receives big contributions from Utah companies scammers like Nu Skin, is meeting privately with leaders in the supplement industry con to see if he can help them head off this unwelcome oversight by the FDA.

    Trade groups MLM Mafia types include:
    United Products Alliance (they employ Hatch’s former chief of staff Patricia Knight as a lobbyist)
    Council for Responsible Nutrition (don’t be fooled by the nice name)
    Tyler Whitehead of Nu Skin
    (and more — I’ll have to do some digging to come up with all of Hatch’s Utah buddies who are in the dietary supplement business)

    They don’t want to have to prove that their products are safe.

    Another thing the Utah companies have been doing that raises FDA hackles is manufacturing botanical compounds in labs and then marketing those compounds as if they were not synthetic. So, some of the compounds may be identical to the botanical, but who knows? The scammers say it’s biologically identical, so why don’t we trust them?

  352. Sili says

    Wolfram Alpha can’t solve the problem.

    I can’t help be feel that the symmetry should make for a pretty solution, but I can’t crack it when it’s non-linear.

    It looks like the answer has to depend on the masses.

  354. crudelywrott says

    Are “ancient” and “primitive” related in common usage? How about in scientific usage?

    It seems to me that the one is a useful synonym for the other at least in casual usage. Consider:

    The ability of an organism to respire and exchange molecules between itself and its environment dates to ancient times. It is an ancient ability common to life.

    Humans have wondered about the reasons and causes of things since ancient times. There is evidence that long before recorded history our ancestors routinely made up reasons and causes to suit themselves and to reign in their children and to cow their enemies and to have successful hunts. This ancient propensity is still a quality of modern people.

    Try substituting “primitive” for “ancient”. Roll it around in your mouth. Speak aloud and listen.

    When I do this, I find “primitive” to be a useful, if not completely descriptive, alternative to “ancient”.

    Of course, this is simply my opinion right now. I could change it given persuasive argument/evidence. ;^>

  355. Triskelethecar says

    I get a lot of errors and can’t log in to wordpress with the iPad. Any suggestions?

  356. aladegorrion says

    Oh Thread! I couldn’t see any of new thread until I cleared my internet history. So glad this is all still here. I was getting worried.
    Hugs and chocolate to all those who need it. I think I could use a bit too. Like Classical Cipher, my life is giving me nausea and heartburn. Personal life is crumbling like a very crumbly cheese. Maybe the deranged penguin could come clean it up. And not likely to get any better for weeks to months. Thanks for listening to the vague gripe.

  357. triskelethecat says

    Well, got it to work and even if I did misspell my name it found my avatar. How cool is that?

  358. Carlie says

    Contrast with “derived”, which means “has changed a lot compared to ancestral groups and other descendants of the same ancestral group”.

    Yep. In fact, it did take a bit of mental training for me to always use “derived” instead of “advanced”, because common usage links primitive and advanced as polar states. Now I tend to always think in terms of primitive = original and derived = well, derived. Using derived as the opposite state makes primitive more aligned with original rather than “not advanced”.

    Since my use of physical/mental punishment was pointed out, I just kind of threw that off the top of my head (like Bill, I don’t ever actually think of religions in terms of “primitive”). I was thinking specifically of something like Catholicism, which went from actual burning at the stake to threatening hellfire instead (the modern version being the derived version of what used to be the original primitive version).

  359. Sili says

    OK. Quick and dirty energy calculation sez the time has to be at the least

    \Delta t \leq \sqrt{\frac{d^3}{8GM}}

    So two 1 kg masses a km apart would take at the very least some 43 years to collide.

    Two suns an astronomical unit apart couldn’t do it in less than three weeks.

  360. Carlie says

    And yay Patricia for having it over with!

    That lidocaine thing is interesting, and I just found out about it this week. We have some sunburn cream (aloe) with lidocaine in it, and one son was in screaming pain from a sunburn, so I slathered him with it (I’ve used it several times myself). This caused him to just about double over from the pain and start crying, so we had to wash it all off. I then found out that some people are really sensitive to lidocaine and experience it as a burning irritant, and then after that found out that my mom is one of those people. I guess it got passed on to him.

  361. says

    Orrin Hatch has been in the business (literally) of giving manufacturers of questionable dietary supplements a free pass for a long time.

    There was the illogical 1994 law (anything manufactured before then is automatically safe).

    And Hatch was in the news a lot when Norwegian wrestler Fritz Aanes was banned from competing after the 2000 Summer Olympics when he tested positive for the anabolic steroid nandrolone. His problem: he took dietary supplements manufactured in Utah.

    In 2010 our man Orrin held emergency conference calls with dietary supplement companies in response to Senator McCain’s “Dietary Supplement Safety Act.” Hatch advised a massive PR and lobbying campaign that showed how hard the manufacturers work to make sure their products are safe and blah, blah, blah. “Invite members of Congress to your facilities.”

    And now, to bring this up to date, mormon news sources are hopping mad over coverage by The New York Times, with the mormons tilting and spinning the story, as in “The New York Times closely scrutinizes Sen. Orrin Hatch’s effective advocacy for the $25-billion-a-year nutritional supplement industry…” Well, it’s not exactly false reporting, but it doesn’t properly represent the story either.

    Here’s the New York Times coverage:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html?_r=1
    Excerpt below:

    In the town of Lehi is the sprawling headquarters of Xango, where company officials praised Mr. Hatch, a Utah Republican, late last year for helping their exotic fruit juice business “operate without excessive intrusion” from Washington.

    Up in Sandy, Utah, is 4 Life Research, whose top executives donated to Mr. Hatch’s last re-election campaign after federal regulators charged the company with making exaggerated claims about pills that it says helps the immune system. And nearby in West Salem, assembly-line workers at Neways fill thousands of bottles a day for a product line that includes Youthinol, a steroid-based hormone that professional sports leagues pushed to ban until Mr. Hatch blocked them.

    “Senator Hatch — he’s our natural ally,” said Marc S. Ullman, a lawyer for several supplement companies.

    Mr. Hatch, who credits a daily regimen of nutritional supplements for his vigor at 77, has spent his career in Washington helping the $25-billion-a-year industry thrive.

    He was the chief author of a federal law enacted 17 years ago that allows companies to make general health claims about their products, but exempts them from federal reviews of their safety or effectiveness before they go to market. During the Obama administration, Mr. Hatch has repeatedly intervened with his colleagues in Congress and federal regulators in Washington to fight proposed rules that industry officials consider objectionable….Mr. Hatch has been rewarded with hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions, political loyalty and corporate sponsorship of his favorite causes back home.

    His family and friends have benefited, too, from links to the supplement industry. His son Scott Hatch, is a longtime industry lobbyist in Washington, as are at least five of the senator’s former aides. Mr. Hatch’s grandson and son-in-law increase revenue at their chiropractic clinic near here by selling herbal and nutritional treatments, including $35 “thyroid dysfunction” injections and a weight-loss product, “Slim and Sassy Metabolic Blend.” And Mr. Hatch’s former law partner owns Pharmics, a small nutritional supplement company in Salt Lake City….

    Naturally, a Xango ad pops up on the NYT web page.

  362. Friendly says

    Sorry if this has already been discussed; I didn’t turn up any of the relevant search terms. I saw today’s article on s Yahoo! News blog about Peter Thiel chipping in $1.25 million to the Seasteading Institute to help them

    build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch–free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be “a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons.”

    I try to refrain from posting anywhere on Yahoo! because it’s an utter waste of time, but I thought I’d toss this out in hopes that it would snag one or two eyeballs before vanishing beyond the comment horizon:

    Imagine you live in a country with a repressive regime. The “freedom and opportunity” of Libertarian Island sounds great to you. You answer the call of a local firm for resident houseworkers and give them all of your money to move you and your family to the island. But when you get there, you find out that all of the domestic jobs with the “benevolent” billionaires are taken. You take an underpaid security position with a less savory billionaire, just to feed your family “until something better comes along,” and are promptly shot by forces loyal to her brother, with whom she’s carrying on an armed feud because the island has private armies instead of police. Now you can’t work, you can’t pay for medical treatment (because there ain’t nothing free on this island), and you can’t afford to leave. Your wife tries to find a decent job but there aren’t any for her either; eventually she answers an ad for a “modeling service” and is slowly pressured into hardcore prostitution, which is of course absolutely legal. It only takes a couple of years to use her up, and then your 14- and 10-year-old children end up working in the seafood-processing plant (no laws against child labor) using dirty knives to gut mercury-loaded fish (no environmental, food-, or work-safety laws), which are for sale to whoever is desperate enough to buy them. Your whole family eventually drowns when the sea rises above the level of your apartment, you can’t afford an apartment at any higher altitude, you try to tie a plastic dinghy up to the floating slum on the city’s outskirts, and somebody cuts you loose. What? You thought somebody was going to come down there and *help* you when you “couldn’t be bothered” to help yourself?

    It garnered exactly two comments. The first was the sort I was expecting:

    wow…………………………..you are paranoid, wow……………….

    The second started OK:

    A bit melodramatic, but the underlying meaning is probably true. Without laws and regulations, nothing is safe for anyone.

    But then ended with:

    All it takes is for one P.O.’d person to snap.

    WTF does anyone “snapping” have to do with anything? If you’re disadvantaged on Libertarian Island, the wolfpack will typically tear out your throat you long before you encounter any rogue wolf.

    So, yes, a waste of time indeed. But occasionally I just can’t help myself.

  363. Ms. Daisy Cutter says

    Abusive fundie homes for “wayward girls.” As one of the commenters says, it sounds like the Magdalene Laundries.

    Note this bit about an argument between a mother and the headmaster:

    The call dissolved into a shouting match between Jeannie Marie and McNamara—who finally declared that he would only discuss the matter with her husband.

    Of course. Why speak to the chattel when you can speak to a real person?

  364. Mr. Fire says

    Sili, you’ve got the basic format of the expression correct!

    Out by a factor of pi/4 x 8^1/2, according to the answer I had tatooed in a very private place.

  366. Sili says

    Naturally, a Xango ad pops up on the NYT web page.

    Lately I’ve been getting ads for a Danish web company selling haircare products.

    Their name?

    “Nice Hair”

    Somehow I don’t see the Colgate Twins twins moving to FreeThoughtBlogs. But to be fair, I’m not sure whether it’s the “free” or the “thought” that bothers them most.

  368. Sili says

    Mr. Fire,

    Sili, you’ve got the basic format of the expression correct!

    Well, if I were smarter, I coulda gotten that from dimensional analysis, I’m sure.

    But thanks. It’s nice to know that I haven’t lost it completely.

    –o–

    I’m actually trying to learn some GM at the moment, but I’ve reached the point where I’m just reading the conclusions, and not understanding the calculation anymore. I was amused, though, by the title of an exercise: “IRREDUCIBLE MASS IS IRREDUCIBLE”. Poor Wheeler couldn’t predict the Internet.

  369. strange gods before me says

    If anyone else wants to kick around “Non-Biblical Paul” for a while, he’s all yours. I’m so done with that guy. And if nobody does, I surely do not blame you.

    D:

  370. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    sgbm: I’m trying to keep up with the Bachmann thread…I don’t have anything to say that you haven’t said already, and better than I would have thought to say.

    FWIW, you hold an important line. That horse isn’t dead; and if you keep kicking it, I’ll keep reading.

  371. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    sgbm: I’m trying to keep up with the Bachmann thread…I don’t have anything to say that you haven’t said already, and better than I would have thought to say.

    FWIW, you hold an important line. That horse isn’t dead; and if you keep beating it, I’ll keep reading.

  373. Audley Z. Darkheart OM (OS), purveyor of candy and lies says

    GH:

    It’s Madonna’s Birthday!

    And the anniversary of Elvis’s* death!

    *My dictionary wants to change that to “pelvis”. Heh.

  374. Classical Cipher says

    sgbm, I hope you’ll keep tearing it up in that thread. I can’t do it today – to add to my list of bad things from yesterday, I went today to get my envelope of cash and found it had disappeared into thin air. Current belief is someone threw it in the garbage. Over $250, gone, just fucking gone and nothing I can do about it. I can’t even think now. Let alone do anything, despite it being my family’s last day of visiting.

  375. Friendly says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter @63: I read the article and am saddened and disgusted. I’m not sure what to do except to forward the article to our state legislators and to hope for several higher-profile exposes of this evil industry to appear soon. Where are the “60 Minutes” cameras when you need them?

  377. Mr. Fire says

    Sili, I just read my post at #364 and it sounds pretty patronizing. I apologize. I didn’t mean it that way.

  380. Sili says

    Don’t worry, Mr. Fire. I didn’t take it that way.

    I know how satisfactory it is to crack a difficult problem. I remember when I understood have to integrate sec(x) – I scribbled it down on the busstop wall.

    I’m just glad I managed to get in the ball park without too much work.

  385. Carlie says

    I’m sorry everybody – I’m just one or two inches over the line of what I can deal with today, and wading into those threads is deep water that I’m too tired to tread. Maybe if they’re still going tomorrow I’ll get my fighting face back and dive in.

  386. Mr. Fire says

    Cool, Sili.

    And by the way, you’re right about the masses making things helluva simpler. As soon as m1 =/= m2, it all goes to hell.

    And yeah, my formatting skills are for shit, I know.

  388. David Marjanović, OM says

    Rent is $675

    When I lived technically just outside Paris, the most expensive rent was 460 €. That’s 662 $ as of today or almost today. It was a room + bathroom of theoretically 17 m².

    electricity is $200 or so (yes, seriously, what the fuck),

    Wow. I paid, like 40 € per month maximum! And 85.8 % of the electricity there (as it said on the bill) is nookular!

    I live 45 miles away from campus

    *culture shock*

    Why would anybody do that? And if you live that far away, what kind of domicile do you live in that it’s still so expensive?

    Oh, and one of my friends wants to see me and I am so completely irrationally resistant to the idea that I get sick and upset thinking about it despite the fact that she has been one of my best friends and I have absolutely nothing against her.

    Please do explain. I’m very interested in how this works.

    *hug*

    I had the dwellers under the stairs burnt off with liquid nitrogen (or possibly CO2) last week. That was special.

    If it was liquid, it was nitrogen. Liquid CO2 (…PZ, I can has <sub> and <sup> tags? Kthxbai) isn’t stable at atmospheric pressure; it boils off, taking so much heat away that the rest freezes. That’s in fact how CO2-containing fire extinguishers produce dry ice.

    While I am looking for a committed girlfriend I am not desperate, lonely, or needy.

    Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

    I don’t care what you are doing with your life, what you are good at, what people notice about you, what books you read, shows you watch, or music you listen to, what you can’t do without, what you think about, and what you do in Friday nights.

    That… came out… wrong.

    Any suggestions on how to respond? I was thinking this: Oh yea, based on your profile, you must have an extremely small penis.

    Go for it. I’m completely serious.

    He stood watching over my shoulder and said, “I love how smart you are and that you can play Set so well.” xo!

    :-}

    “Oh isn’t that cute…too bad I’m looking for an adult”

    Pwnz0red.

    Well sure, IndyM, it would be wild, because he’d get to put you in your place and all and make you understand what you really want is a good big strong man who makes all the decisions rather than all those little sissy-boy liberals. *eyeroll*

    Frankly… I don’t know if that guy wants to make any decisions other than when to have sex, or if he has even considered the fact that he’ll sometimes have to make decisions.

    …which is exactly why this here would hit him so hard:

    “Oh gee you seem awesome, baby. Exactly the sort of person I’d want to take a ride on (VOOM VOOM! ;) ). But I see you’re looking for a girl friend and I’m just looking for someone to satisfy my girlfriend and I[*] when we want some real man action. Oh well. Block“

    :-)

    * Took me 5 seconds to understand this. Then I tried to substitute “me”, and it worked. I’ll never get used to and being a preposition that governs the nominative.

    Play with his mind a little before telling him that it won’t work out because you’re a lady and he’s a douchebag.

    Not a lady. A nerd.

    The term “lady” comes with baggage that guy would jump on. “Nerd” comes with baggage that would jump on him.

    …For starters, the stereotypical nerd is male.

    Generally, I’d claim that if one doesn’t care about whatever there is to learn, then one probably won’t learn much about it.

    Yep. All motivations are emotions.

    That’s why kolinahr is illogical.

    *Vulcan vanishing in puff of logic*

    Tethys, I hope your roof contractor gets a real bad case of the shingles.

    ROTFL!

    “oriental” flavored ramen

    ROTFLMAO!

    CO2 reforming, or dry reforming, of natural gas

    Awesome. Great idea in the short run. But it still produces twice as much CO2 as it consumes.

    So it goes from blow torch to a bee sting.

    *phew*

    the connected tibiofibula in theropods

    The tibia and the fibula aren’t fused (as they are in frogs other than Triadobatrachus and, IIRC, Czatkobatrachus). The tibia only has a crest (the fibular crest, unsurprisingly) which holds the fibula in place. It’s actually an ossified ligament that fuses to the tibia before hatching.

    “Primitive” is often replaced by “plesiomorphic” or, unfortunately, “basal” in biology.

    I get a lot of errors and can’t log in to wordpress with the iPad. Any suggestions?

    Stop trying. Registration is not yet necessary. PZ has only threatened to turn it on sometime in the future.

  391. David Marjanović, OM says

    Hugs, chocolate and/or fennel tea for aladegorrion and Carlie.

    I still contemplate the idea of libertarian oil-rig nations outside of international law. Anyone with enough guns could simply invade like Reagan on Grenada without any fear of repercussions. And I do mean anyone. Shades of Monaco comes to mind – the Grimaldi dynasty is descended from a pirate who simply conquered that rock and declared himself prince.

  392. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Nerd, the ‘nym contrail looks nice.

    ==

    I know we learned in the Glen Beck thread that nobody here is capable of empathy, but I’m going to waste a few pixels and maybe burn off a quarter calorie by typing anyway.

    Three messages in to a woman I’m talking with in an on-line dating environment and I just dropped the “still legally married, but separated, waiting on paperwork” note back to her.

    I regret nothing of doing it, wanted totally to be upfront about it and would/will even get if that’s the end of our conversations. I’m just all jittery and anxious now. Is there a fight somewhere that I can run into all screamy and nuts, or do I need to start one?

  394. Sili says

    I had the dwellers under the stairs burnt off with liquid nitrogen (or possibly CO2) last week. That was special.

    Oh! Now get it.

    As the Dottore said, liquid=nitrogen.

    Dry ice is easier to transport, though, but it doesn’t transfer heat to metal implements all that quickly, so there’s a risk of not cooling the equipment enough to kill pain along with the warts. Or so I guess …

    –o–

    Missed this conversation so far, but based on

    100% Italian-American

    it sounds like he got the worst of both worlds.

    –o–

    Speakingo CO_2_ (I wasn’t), Norway apparently just found a nice new spot of oil in the North Sea. How nice of them to help maintain the illusion of the left side of the Laffer curve being within reach.

  395. says

    I’ll never get used to and being a preposition that governs the nominative.

    I’m sure you know that it isn’t, that it’s just a hypercorrection based on lack of instinct for grammar :-p

    Over $250, gone, just fucking gone

    fuck. is the loss going to get you into financial trouble?

  396. says

    DrDMFM:

    electricity is $200 or so (yes, seriously, what the fuck),

    Wow. I paid, like 40 € per month maximum! And 85.8 % of the electricity there (as it said on the bill) is nookular!

    Difference being, Dr-to-be Geiger lives in central Florida, where airconditioning is Essential to Life® for 9-10 months out of every year.

  397. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Crip Dyke,

    There are some decent proposals on how we might or can use it, but correct me if I’m wrong, y’all, no one seems to be saying, “I have had a system to tell the difference for some time. This is what it is. This is how it works. This is which of the major religions fit.

    Actually, what you’ve had is quite a few people who have said that all religions are primitive by definition – which would seem to answer your explicit question.

    I get what you’re saying, but you’re missing something here. I **do** understand that quite a few people have said all R’s are primitive.

    However, what I said is that no one had a system **to tell the difference**. Those people who have a system that makes no distinction by definition do not have a system drawing regularized distinctions.

    I don’t think this is the most vital pressing issue or whatever. I just have seen an awful lot of people write in such a way as to imply that some religions are not primitive and some are. PZ’s statement that Islam is “a primitive religion” makes zero sense unless there exists non-primitive religion (at least one).

    So I still don’t really know what Dawkinns & PZ and all the others who clearly DO use some sort of system (even if it’s ad hoc) to sort religions into primitive & non-primitive, what they are using as their yardstick.

    If they, too, think all religions are primitive, then the language they are using is meaningless and, frankly, wrong. You could at that point say that Islam (or whatever religion you choose) is a primitive ‘way or relating to the world’ or a primitive ‘collection of behaviors’ or etc, etc. But you couldn’t say that it’s primitive compared to other religions.

    If they do think that some religions are more primitive than others, (and I’m not just talking about big names, who are merely the people I remember using such phraseology, I’m really interested in anyone who can remember making such a distinction), then they aren’t making a non-sensical statement, but they are making a statement that I don’t understand because I don’t know what such a person would be trying to say.

    There have been some good suggestions here, but no one that has chimed in (that I’ve noticed) has said that they make such a distinction outside of this conversation, nor has anyone had a theory that I’ve noticed that would shed light on what PZ meant in that post about the behavior of muslims that kicked off this question.

    I might almost have thought that he was using it as a synonym for violent (I’m not saying that primitive = violent, but I am saying that that’s the first-to-mind interpretation of the particular PZed sentence that kicked off this question), BUT he said that Islam was primitive AND violent.

    Since the context was about violence, whatever else primitive might mean seems to have few enough clues that his meaning is inscrutable to me.

    There’s been great discussion here, but not yet anyone who has had a theory on what primitive **actually means in practice** when used by atheists/ humanists/ agnostics in their writings on religion in a way that appears to categorize certain religions apart from others.

    Nothing wrong with the conversation we’ve been having, but what was originally inscrutable to me remains so.

  398. Rawnaeris says

    Fuck me, but I think I need a shower after having to listen to two of my coworkers at lunch today.
    The entire conversation consisted of why being gay is harmful to that person and their families, being gay is a choice, “I have a gay friend but…”, gay peple have AIDS, and straight people only get it from people who have teh ghey secks and how Focus on the Family and “Dr.” Dobson is doing such a fucking wonderful job for Christ. Fuck!

    All I was ever able to get in sideways was an “That’s not true,” which was completely ignored. I wasn’t even able to get them to change the topic, get them to stop ranting or even notice that they were making me visibly uncomfortable. And one of the two already knew that I disagreed with his bigoted viewpoint!

    Jesus H. Christ on a fucking pogo stick. If I ever needed confirmation that I never want worship that bigoted asshole of a god that these christians are so god-dammed obsessed with, or even associate with people who do, today did it.

  400. says

    That also explains how one can get so sweaty on such a short bicycle ride. I used to ride 7km to work in my old job, and since it’s not humid here the sweat would just dry off really quickly. Current job is only 8km, but uphill instead of flat, so I haven’t done it much. I mean to when the weather is warmer and I’m in better health.

    But Ben, didn’t you want to lose weight, too? If you can’t ride a bicycle for 2 miles, you need to start slower and work up. Ride around the block a few times. When you get up to it, then go for it. Save money AND get fitter. Bargain. Get panniers or a basket, and carry in work clothes. Don’t you have showers somewhere at your uni? Most likely in the gym.

  402. IndyM says

    @Randide: I wouldn’t worry about what you said. If she’s an open, compassionate, and logical person, she will appreciate your honesty. If not, you dodged a bullet. It’s much better to get that stuff out of the way and out in the open. Good luck with everything; I hope it works out for the best.

    FWIW, I hate online dating. It’s like a minefield of red flags. I’ve been on one site since the new year, and despite getting a lot of messages (I mentioned a truly classic one upthread today), I’ve only gone on one date so far–and only because my gut told me that he was a good guy. (And he was! We’re not into each other in a romantic way, but we’ve become good friends and hang out.)

    For any of you online daters, there’s a very funny site called A(n)nals of Online Dating: http://annalsofonlinedating.tumblr.com/

  403. says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter @363, thanks for the link.

    I’m reminded of the way in which lax state regulations allowed FLDS criminal, Warren Jeffs, to get away with abusing children at Alta Academy in Salt Lake.

    While religion is clearly behind the abuse, it’s state laws that allow it to continue unabated.

    From the article to which you linked:

    Authorities in the state are barred from inspecting the homes or even keeping track of them. (New Beginnings has operated under multiple names in Florida, Mississippi, and Texas.) “It’s hard to understand it, but faith-based is just taboo for regulation,” says Matthew Franck, an editor at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, who authored an investigative series on the state’s homes in the mid-2000s. “It took decades of work to get just the most minimal standards of regulation at faith-based child-care centers,” he adds. “I just knew that when certain lobbyists would stand up to say, ‘We have a concern about how this affects faith-based institutions,’ the bill was immediately amended—it was a very Republican legislature—or it would immediately die. That’s still true.” (Missouri isn’t alone. In April, Montana state Rep. Christy Clark, who campaigned on a “faith and family” platform, joined 11 other Republicans in scuttling a bill that would have regulated religious teen homes; a mother of three, she cast the homes’ residents as unreliable witnesses who “struggle with truthfulness.”)</blockquote?

  404. says

    “I have a gay friend but…”,

    But do they let them use their bathroom?

    gay people have AIDS,

    Except the one that doesn’t.

    and straight people only get it from people who have teh ghey secks

    Except the ones that didn’t.

    and how Focus on the Family and “Dr.” Dobson is doing such a fucking wonderful job for Christ.

    Yeah, grubbing people’s money . . . how Christ like of them.

    Rawnaeris, I hear ya. I hate that there are people who believe that shit. It’s common in my community too. -_-

  407. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Thanks, IndyM. I do know that it’s going to work out for the best either way. (For we are living in the bes… screw it.) I’m just itching to find out which way it is going to work out. I’ll be fine. I am checking out that link in lieu of pacing back and forth. :o)

  408. First Approximation (formerly Feynmaniac) says

    Two point masses (i.e., of negligible size), each of mass m, lie a distance d apart in deep space (that is to say, assume all external gravitational effects on the system are negligible).

    The two objects are stationary with respect to each other at time t = 0.

    – Can you set up and solve a differential equation that will express the amount of time t, in terms of d and m (along with any associated constants), that it will take for these two objects to collide, under no forces other than than their own mutual gravitational attraction?

    (Too lazy to look up how to Latex this.)

    Well, this is just a special case of the two body problem, but looking up the solution would be cheating :P. Anyway, there are symmetries to exploit in this problem. Setting up the solution is easy. Solving is a lot more work.

    If x1 is the position of the first particle and x2 of the second then just take the origin to be the center of mass:

    x1 – – – – – – 0 – – – – – – x2

    Clearly, x1 = – x2. So, x1 – x2 = 2 x1. I’ll just use x instead of x1 from now on.

    Then by Newtson’s second law and Law of Gravity:

    x” = – (Gm/4) x^-2

    I can’t remember how to solve this differential equation and using Maple feels like cheating. Anyway, looking at the energy is a way reduce the problem to a first order differential equation.

    At t=0, E = -Gm/2x

    Later, E= 1/2 m (dx/dt)^2 + 1/2 m (-dx/dt)^2 – Gm^2/2x
    = m v^2 – Gm^2/2x.

    Equating the two and simplifying,

    (dx/dt)^2 = Gm (1/2x – 1/d)

    (√Gm) dt = ± dx (1/2x -1/d)^-1/2

    Take the negative solution for convenience (it doesn’t really matter since you’ll just end up with a different sign for a solution than if you took the positive). Integrating x=d/2 to x=o on right and from t=0 to t=T (i.e, time of impact) on the left side we get,

    (√Gm)T = ∫ dx ( 1/2x – 1/d)^-1/2

    Superscripts and subsubscripts aren’t working, so it’s not shown. Anyway, make a substitution y = ( 1/2x – 1/d)^1/2. Working it out you get,

    (√Gm)T = ∫ dy ( y^2 + 1/d)^-2

    where we integrate from zero to infinity. Look up this integral in a table (I can’t completely avoid cheating :p) and working out the details we find:

    T = π/4 (d^3 /Gm)^1/2

    If there’s a simpler solution, please let me know!

    Apologies for the poor formatting.

  409. says

    If ever we think that political moves like George Bush’s faith-based initiatives have little effect on our society, or that they do minimal harm, consider the case of the abusive home for teen girls that Ms. Daisy Cutter referred to up-thread.

    Here’s another excerpt from the Mother Jones article:

    The home relocated to Missouri three years later, returning to Texas in 1998 after then-Gov. George W. Bush deregulated the activities of faith-based groups there.

    Rebekah Home eventually closed, and New Beginnings opened in Florida soon after, under the watch of a couple who had worked with Roloff for 35 years. They were Wiley Cameron (who later served on Bush’s peer-review board for Christian children’s agencies in Texas) and his wife Faye (who was banned from working with children in the Lone Star state). Bill McNamara and his wife eventually took over, and when state officials began investigating the home, they moved New Beginnings to Missouri. “Because I used to listen to [Roloff] on the radio, and read about the great girls coming out of his place, I thought maybe this was God’s thing for Roxy,” Jeannie Marie remembers. “I didn’t know to do deeper research, because, I thought, these are Baptists, these are my people.”

    This lack of regulation, this business of granting special status to religious groups, is causing grave harm.

    That same article details what sick and cruel institutions these bring-’em-back-to-God schools are. Just one example: the overseers would give the girls bran for breakfast, make them drink a lot of water, and then refuse to let them have a bathroom break. How exactly is that supposed to do anything other than break an individual down?

  410. says

    Hrmph! I just Shareed, via Susie Bright, a Facebook link to a Blag Hag post about a story about one of the Indiana stage collapse’s victim’s (lesbian) spouse not being allowed to collect her body.

    And then, within moments of hitting Share, I got clued in that Jen had been clued in (by her commentors) that the story apparently isn’t true.

    <sigh> Life at the speed of internet, eh?

  411. John Morales says

    Crip Dyke:

    [1] There’s been great discussion here, but not yet anyone who has had a theory on what primitive **actually means in practice** when used by atheists/ humanists/ agnostics in their writings on religion in a way that appears to categorize certain religions apart from others.

    [2] Nothing wrong with the conversation we’ve been having, but what was originally inscrutable to me remains so.

    1. Care to provide some specific example?

    2. Frankly, who cares? Primitive is primitive.

    (Jews mutilate the penes of their male children)

  412. CJO says

    I think calling Islam “primitive” is meant to connote that the societies in which it arose and is still ubiquitous are based on old Mediterranean (patriarchal) concepts of honor and shame. Which pretty much means violence, or at least the real threat of it, in order to enforce the concepts. But I think that’s a feature of the societies first and the religion as a result of that. It’s why they’re still Islamic societies; they’re not that way because they’re majority Muslim.

  413. John Morales says

    CJO, probably, but that’s of course conflating the religion with the culture.

  414. says

    private schools don’t require state accreditation and are not governed by laws regulating the public schools.

    That’s from the article about abusive, religion-based schools for teens.

    And now we have Republican state legislators all over the U.S. systematically stripping resources from public schools, and giving free rein to private schools. It’s an evil business.

  415. says

    @first approximation
    Darn it, I approached the problem wrong! And it was a pretty stupid mistake. I made the distance between the masses x, and in terms of force, I wanted to use the frame of the mass on the left as 0. So I was thinking that maybe I could subtract the force on the first one and add it on the second one.

    That got me the differential equation: x”+2*m*G*x^(-2)

    Although that is as far as I got because I don’t know how to solve this type of differential equation.

  416. says

    And … not the final straw, but certainly insult added to injury: we the taxpayers help keep abusive, religion-based schools in business. Your tax dollars at work.

    At both the state and federal levels, the “troubled teen” industry—religious and secular—enjoys quiet support from many politicians. (Key fundraisers for Mitt Romney’s 2008 and 2012 campaigns hail from Utah’s teen-home sector.) Local courts promote the homes as an alternative to juvenile detention, and facilities can collect a variety of state and federal grants.

  418. Mr. Fire says

    I love you, First Approximation.

    Yes that’s it. And far more elegant than my solution.

    (Though I’m still proud of all the tricks I pulled to get to the answer the long way)

  420. says

    Oh, look, it’s our own Molly Ivins, after whom the Order of Molly is named:
    http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/08/rick-perry-molly-ivins

    Before she died, Molly had some things to say about Rick Perry, or “Governor Goodhair” as she dubbed him.

    Excerpt:

    This, in turn, brings up the interesting role of coincidence in the life of Gov. Goodhair. Last summer, the Guv appointed an Enron executive to the state’s Public Utilities Commission and, the next day, Perry got a check for $25,000 from Ken Lay. He explained this, to everyone’s satisfaction, as being “totally coincidental.”

    The article includes a videotaped interview, which is great.

    The governor of Texas is despicable. Of all the crass pandering, of all the gross political kowtowing to ignorance, we haven’t seen anything this rank from Gov. Goodhair since…gee, last fall.

    Then he was trying to draw attention away from his spectacular failure on public schools by convincing Texans that gay marriage was a horrible threat to us all. Now he’s trying to disguise the fact that the schools are in free-fall by proposing that we teach creationism in biology classes.

  421. First Approximation (formerly Feynmaniac) says

    BTW, how do you use Latex here? 408 is really ugly.

  422. says

    @Mr. Fire
    Say, do you know how to solve a differential equation of the form:

    \frac{d^2x}{dt^2}+Cx^{-2}=0

    That is what I tried to do.

    @1st approximation
    Turning it into an energy problem was brilliant!

  423. broboxley OT says

    Im having trouble understanding the math question

    Two point masses (i.e., of negligible size), each of mass m, lie a distance d apart in deep space (that is to say, assume all external gravitational effects on the system are negligible).

    The two objects are stationary with respect to each other at time t = 0.

    2 small masses(assuming equal in size from the description), no external gravity vectors lie an unknown distance apart and STATIONARY
    then t=infinity as they have no gravitational incentive to approach each other

  424. says

    Ahh, now I get the ‘dwellers under the stairs’ reference. Since it wasn’t that long ago that some of us hid under the stairs, I wuz confuzed. when I was a kid my brother and I got little tiny warts all over our bellies. Liquid nitrogen cleaned them all up. 50 years later, still wart free.

  426. John Morales says

    broboxley, no, it’s an initial condition. By virtue of natural law, gravity will apply to this scenario. The implications are the subject of interest.

    (Gravity can be thought of as a force or as a field, but not as an incentive! That’s Mythosmage territory)

  428. broboxley OT says

    John Morales #426 hmm, will check with my local friendly astrophysicist and get back. Not that I dont trust your answer but he can make it understandable to me.

  429. says

    John Boehner takes misogyny to yet another level by playing golf at an exclusive boy’s club called Burning Tree Club. I call it a “boys club” because a bunch of adult men who won’t allow women onto their golfing course are not real men. Bunch of immature, close-minded, overly-privileged doofuses.

    And I wish I could say any man who excludes women from his meetings with lobbyists by meeting the lobbyists at a boys-only golf course is not a real politician. But of course, he is a real politician of a sort: the Republican sort.
    http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/john-boehner-burning-tree-lobby

    At Burning Tree, Boehner does a lot, if not most, of his congressional business. He does it by playing golf with lobbyists.

    In the past decade, more than 70 lobbyists have belonged to Burning Tree, which caps total members at around 600 and charges a $75,000 initiation fee and $6,000 a year in dues. (In your dreams, regular duffers.) According to Political Correction, those lobbyists have represented Goldman Sachs, Koch Industries, the US Chamber of Commerce, RJ Reynolds Tobacco Company, health insurance giant Aetna, Northrop Grumman, Chevron Texaco, and Bank of America, among others.

    Boehner’s membership gave him 87 connections to the health care and pharmaceutical industries, 38 connections with the oil and energy industries, and 11 connections with the aviation giant Boeing. The health care and energy industries are among Boehner’s most generous donors, doling out $1.6 million and over $1 million, respectively.

    Another industry tight with Boehner and well represented at Burning Tree is Big Tobacco. The top individual donor throughout Boehner’s career is Bruce Gates, a lobbyist for cigarette company Altria. Some of Boehner’s closest allies in the business world reportedly include tobacco industry lobbyists. And Boehner is infamous for once handing out a half-dozen checks from the tobacco industry on the House floor as Congress debated legislation to slash tobacco subsidies.

    Here’s an article that details the boys-only nature of Burning Tree. The club has the anti-distinction of making Sandra Day O’Connor the first Supreme Court Justice to not be offered a membership. The no-women policy was extended to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor. Ginsburg and Sotomayor may not have minded all that much, but O’Connor was an avid golfer.

    Anyway, it’s the principle of the thing. The club offers an honorary membership to all Supreme Court Justices … except the females.

  431. First Approximation (formerly Feynmaniac) says

    Testing…

    \frac{1}{1^2} + \frac{1}{2^2}+ ... = \sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{1}{n^2} = \frac{\pi^2}{6}

    Okay, that was much, much simpler than I thought it would be.

  435. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Ibyea, do you mean that little girls are not little kids?

  436. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Lynna, why would manly menz want to have women bleeding all over the Burn Tree and spreading their cooties.

    So nice of the male Supreme Court justices going along with the policy.

  438. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Sad story, this guy was obviously battling some “demons” but it just goes to show you that religion, even wielded with the power he did, is not a cure-all.

  439. says

    Janine:

    Lynna, why would manly menz want to have women bleeding all over the Burn Tree and spreading their cooties.

    Really. Reminds me of the old T-shirt that had “Don’t trust anything that bleeds for five days and lives” on it.

  440. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Caine, you’re online! I thought your wireless was down. Or are you sneaking online?

  441. chigau says

    I’m at Thor Lake!
    Somewhere NE of Great Slave Lake!
    We have sometimes internet!
    What did I miss?

  442. Psych-Oh says

    Lynna – Many golf clubs are still very sexist and racist. Prime right-wing breeding ground.

  443. says

    Janine:

    Caine, you’re online! I thought your wireless was down. Or are you sneaking online?

    Something’s wrong with it, but I’m not sure what. After fiddling with it (the mifi) for about two hours this morning, I accidentally came across a position that it decided to work in. New batteries are on the way, but I’m thinking we’re gonna have to get a new unit. I think one of the little soldered connections in it is close to breakage, which is why it’s been so fucked up lately.

    Right now, I have net, so I’m not gonna question what worked!

  448. Mr. Fire says

    CO_{2}

    Hmm, but where’s the cheat sheet that ibyea, First App and Owlmirror are using using to do all that other funky shit

  449. says

    Hi Caine!
    ++++++
    “golf clubs are still very sexist and racist”

    No, they’re just machined that way;-) (I know what you meant, I just couldn’t resist;-)

  453. Psych-Oh says

    Katherine – sounds nice!

    I thought this was an interesting take on the sexist nature of Male Only golf clubs using Augusta as an example…
    There also are political and regional divisions on this issue. Democrats oppose Augusta’s policy by a huge 67-29 percent, independents by 58-35 percent, but Republicans favor it by 15 points, 54 to 39 percent. (Republicans also are more apt to be golf fans.)

    Regionally, six in 10 Northeasterners and Westerners alike oppose Augusta’s policy, while opposition declines to about 50 percent in the South and Midwest.

  454. First Approximation (formerly Feynmaniac) says

    Hmm, but where’s the cheat sheet that ibyea, First App and Owlmirror are using using to do all that other funky shit

    Here.

  458. says

    @Mr. Fire
    For fractions: \frac{numerator}{denominator}

    Subscritp: number_subscript, if other symbols need to be entered, do number_{-number}, same with all other entries

    Exponent: number^{exponent}

    Summation symbol: \Sum_{k=1}^{\infty}

    Integration from a to b: int_{b}^{a}

    Vector: \vec{x}

    Unit vector: \hat{x}

    Newton’s notation for differentiation: \dot{x}

    Greek letters: \theta, or for capital greek: \Theta

    closed loop integral: \oint

    There is more, but I think these are the most useful for physics.

  459. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Ibyea, I did not mean anything too serious by pointing that out. But I do think that it is just one small example of how thoughts can be gendered and how it stays with us.

    I say that as someone who does try to edit out the sexist and racist content form my statement.

    (I wish I could make my sisters stop taunting their sons that they are crying like little girls. Grrr!)

  460. says

    Lynna, why would manly menz want to have women bleeding all over the Burn Tree and spreading their cooties.

    The scientific term is girl’s germs.
    Hey, we know women can’t play golf anyway. Their tits get in the way. (Priceless quote from professional golfer a few years ago.)

    Elvis = Lives

    No, he’s definitely dead. I have the 1977 Rolling Stone that proves it.
    I’m “celebrating” two anniversaries today:the death of Elvis, and the 10th anniversary of my beloved black Bridgestone bike (say that three times real fast) getting stolen. Thieves suck. And not in the good way.

  463. Psych-Oh says

    Read all the blogs, caught up on the news, now I must go to sleep before the children wake! Goodnight all.

  464. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    …and the 10th anniversary of my beloved black Bridgestone bike (say that three times real fast) getting stolen.

    Tell me about it. I had my Trek 8000 stolen years ago. Chromoly frame, shock absorbers…it was a beautiful bike that was a joy to ride. I still miss it.

  467. Quodlibet says

    Stolen bikes…Mr Quodlibet’s gorgeous, customized Cervelo racing bike was stolen near the end of our vacation in France. :-(

  468. Quodlibet says

    That is, it was stolen near the end of our vacation in France *just a few weeks ago*. :-(

  469. says

    @janine
    I don’t think you meant anything serious at all. But you are right, kids mean both boys and girls.

    It is kind of like that “riddle” I remember where the boy’s father dies in the car accident, but then a doctor comes saying “son” (I don’t remember the exact detail). How, the father is dead? Well, the solution is that of course, the doctor is the mother. I remember feeling pretty silly for not getting that. But that just shows that when people think of doctors, they think of male doctors because that is how our culture socializes us.

  470. cicely says

    Classical Cipher: :( :( :(
    I wish I could help, but all I can offer is *hugs*, and a selection of *boozes* and *chocolates*.
    –

  471. Tethys says

    Janine

    I’ve had that same discussion with my brother! I asked what was wrong with being a girl? Then pointed out that perhaps what they actually meant was that the child in question was whining.

    I thank Joy Brown for the art of 10 second confrontation.

  472. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    Janine wrote:

    Tell me about it. I had my Trek 8000 stolen years ago.

    I’ve had my Trek 870 MTB for around 15 years – though over that time I’ve worked it so hard that about the only original part of it left is the frame. It’s been stolen in its entirety once (I got it back – obviously) and had the front wheel taken twice.

  475. triskelethecat says

    Hi TET. Had a busy night and dealing with iPad as well as laptop, it’s been a bit nuts.

    @Gyeong: I was having log in issues, but finally managed to clear them up. The iPad didn’t like my bookmark for Pharyngula so I had to go into FtB, then to Pharyngula and then it worked. Then it didn’t like my wordpress ID so had to work that out..

    I’m so far behind…my mind is like “i’m so down it looks like up to me…”

    Going to try to catch up on comments. My life continues to be nuts. Signed a lease on an apartment, effective Sept 1 so hopefully life will become more sane and stable after I move out of the house…

  477. Randide, ou l'Optimisme says

    Okay, she messaged me back, so I can at least stop the foot twitching. There was some concern on her part about whether or not there are any children involved in my marriage, which I totally respect. Also there aren’t any.

    IndyM, that site will only be funny until I see that my profile has made it on there. :o)

  480. Classical Cipher says

    fuck. is the loss going to get you into financial trouble?

    Not in any immediate way, I think. I’ve been saving up really carefully so I have other money in my accounts, and my large expenses are hopefully going to be covered by a hefty student loan. Plus my mom has now offered to cover the loss – while this doesn’t feel like much of a solution for me, since then my mom will just be out $260 she can’t afford to lose, it will help with my own situation somewhat. It’s just – as I said, I have been really careful with money for a long time, since I’ve been saving up for the grad school thing, so for such a big chunk of money to senselessly disappear is sort of a blow to the morale.

  482. says

    Janine:

    I link to this with only one comment, I am very perplexed.

    I’m not perplexed:

    “Apparently,” Berenbaum says, in males, “there is a deep-seated instinct to aim at targets,” and having a fly to aim at reduces what she politely calls “human spillage.”

    Oh, the thing about Jeff Goldblum? Yeah, that’s idiotic. About the whole decal thing though, yeah, I get it. I’m spoiled, I think, because Mister considers himself happily lazy and sits, so I’ve never dealt with the spillage business.

  483. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    That is not a fly, that is a Brundlefly. Be grateful that Brundlefly is not feeding.

  484. Richard Austin says

    Caine and Janine:

    I don’t know that it’s so much about “need to aim at things” as “one gets really bored standing at a urinal in pretty much zero time flat” and “most guys have very bad sense of the whole angle of incidence/angle of reflection thing, not to mention splash awareness”.

    There’s also a guy code that says you don’t look around, and staring at a wall is pretty dull (though a bar I go to has video screens over the urinals). And there’s also a bit of weirdness about standing there watching yourself. So, having a reason and something to be actively looking at is almost as good an excuse as anything.

  485. strange gods before me says

    It’s not really an instinct, it’s goal-setting and reward like any other minor task, though writing in the snow is better. But yeah, a picture-changing target? I’d come back and tell my friends “you have to pee, RIGHT NOW.”

  487. RahXephon, un féminist nucléaire says

    Hey everyone! I’m still adjusting to the new split-blog format and the different commenting system and all that. I also have a lot of personal crap going on, but I’ll try to post more, if anyone cares.

    In other news, at least the trolls are few in that Bachmann thread. The ones that are there seem even more dim-witted and half-hearted than usual I think we can lower the assessment of it turning into Corndog-Gate from Threat Level Lavender to Threat Level Chartreuse.

  488. Benjamin "I can has MacBook Pro?" Geiger says

    DDMFM:

    I live in a one-bedroom, one-bathroom apartment (about 700 ft^2) near my former employer. At some point, I’ll move (but probably not until December at the earliest). Apartments near campus are generally around $800/mo, which would still be cheaper than commuting.

    And yes, air conditioning is considered a critical service.

    #####

    Oooh, \LaTeX! Remind me to paste my dissertation in here when it’s done. :-P

    #####

    I’ve been agonizing over which elective to take for some time now. Today, a proto-friend (translation: someone who isn’t quite considered a friend yet, but will likely be one soon) suggested I sign up for both, and attend the first class of each before deciding. I think I’ll do that.

    Yeah, the options are Digital Image Processing and Fuzzy Logic. I could theoretically take Computer Networks, but it just doesn’t call to me at all.

    #####

    Turns out there’s a new rule for the department: All new students (that means me) must have a laptop. My MacBook Pro is definitely on the beat-up side; at the very least I’d need a new battery and new power adapter, plus the optical drive doesn’t work and the screen is weird. But it’ll be cheaper than buying a new one.

    (But I want one so very, very badly…)

    #####

    I could probably go my entire life without ever thinking about botflies again. Holy fuck.

    Do squirrel botflies infest humans, ever?

  489. says

    … Damn.

    Apparently, while I was driving home, the Digital Image Processing course filled up.

    I guess I’m taking Fuzzy Logic after all. (Unless a spot opens up. I’ll see if I can sit in on the first class anyway, just in case there are others doing the same thing…)

  491. Patricia, OM says

    Carlie @360 – Sorry your son had such a reaction to lidocaine. Honestly I hadn’t heard that it was just out there for public consumption. That makes me real leery. Your son is right it does BURN, as an injection it feels like a blow torch. There should be huge warnings on the stuff. How could you possibly know this? I think you are completely blameless in thinking the product was safe.

    Sailor – Thanks for the sympathy, the biopsy went much better than I thought – catholics being in charge.

    Classical Cipher – If it is any comfort to you at all, I’m probably much older than you, these days of family ugliness happen, it is the only way you will get respect for yourself and your views. My coming out to my family and church was HORRIBLE, but I had to do it. The family is OK with it now. My church still stalks me. Fuck em. It will get easier, and fewer, as you get older. It sucks, it hurts bad, and it makes you cry. I know. Hugs.

  492. Patricia, OM says

    bot flies. Holy fuck.

    Amen brother. Makes ya wonder, if there ever had been a holy fuck, why do we have bot flies, tsunamis, earth quakes and child molesting priests?

  493. Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM says

    Can’t Win-Richard Thompson

    Recorded in 1988. Some guy by the name of Kenny Aronoff is on drums. In the middle of Thompson’s North American tour of 1988, Dave Mattocks broke his arm. Not a bad fill in.

    Easy There, Steady NowRichard Thompson and Danny Thompson (not related)

  494. First Approximation (formerly Feynmaniac) says

    Now that I know how to use Latex here I’ll fill in some detail I left out of 408 (if anyone still cares).

    You end up with:

    T \sqrt{Gm} = \int_0^\infty \frac{dy}{(y^2 + 1/d)^2}

    Looking up the integral:

    \int_0^\infty \frac{dy}{y^2 + 1/d} = \frac{1}{2}\left. \frac{yd}{y^2 + 1/d}\right|_0^\infty + \frac{d^{3/2}}{2} \left.\arctan(y\sqrt{d} )\right|_0^\infty = 0 + \frac{d^{3/2}}{2} (\frac{\pi}{2} - 0)
    = \frac{d^{3/2}\pi}{4}

    and

    T = \frac{\pi}{4} \sqrt {\frac{d^3}{Gm}}.

    I forgot to add that the solution looks a lot like Kepler’s thrid law:

    \frac{P^2}{a^3} = \frac{4 \pi^2}{MG}

    or

    P = 2\pi \sqrt {\frac{d^3}{GM}}

    where P is the period, a is the semi-major axis and M is the mass of the Sun.

  497. theophontes , flambeau du communisme says

    @ Rorschach (+KG)

    I posted a response to your and KG’s disagreement on the “Tiresome and ill-mannered” thread. (Link)

    @ Josh
    Sorry to whine on TET, but (like David Marjanović #388) I really need the [sup] and [sub]. As a high priest of all things Pharyngulitic, could you not roast a fatted calf to the Ebil Oberlord ™ ?

    (I have no idea why ™ works and I am failing at Latex.)

  498. Patricia, OM says

    First Approximation – I have absolutely no clue whatsoever regarding your post at 494. But it’s fucking beautiful.

    And if you are ending up with the mass of the Sun, well, there it is.

    You win the intertubes.

  499. Patricia, OM says

    Janine – Oops you are wrong @490. Michelle Bachmann says it’s Elvis’s birthday.

    Makes me think she was in class with Sarah Palin.