This is a poll from the mind of Wayne Laugesen, crazy fundie editor from Colorado Springs. As usual, he’s complaining about those damned atheists on his lawn.
Is it OK for government leaders and legislative bodies to proclaim a National Day of Prayer?
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal
50%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal
46%
I don’t know
0%
I don’t care
4%
I think we should go give him something more to complain about.
If only Obama would declare a National Day of No Prayer to be fair…then watch Wayne squall and screech.
600-something votes in, and it’s a dead heat between YES and NO.
I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised that DON”T KNOW and DON”T CARE were even offered as options. Call me a cynic!
Come on Pharyngulists. We’re still behind 47% to 49%
Not any more. Time to haul out the alternative browsers…
If he does, I hope he waits until
after the 2012 electionnever. I hate to think what it would do to his polls.P.S. I just read the article in question, and I never get tired of religious people telling atheists how we could be more effective if only we would just shut up and go away.
@skepticalscientist #5
Yes, it’s the old “just let me give you folks some advice, you’d be much more influential if you’d never bring this up again.”
Also, I suppose there will always be people who don’t care about an issue, but how can people not care about this issue?
Progressing well since #2:
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal
37%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal
60%
I don’t know
0%
I don’t care
3%
Total Votes: 923
Voted no.
You are saying that would be a poll that couldn’t be Pharyngulated, I suppose.
Heavy sigh.
I voted and the results came and went in less than a second. Must be a glitch in somebody’s software.
Like skeptical scientist I find it interesting that a theist is giving atheists advice on how to promote our non-belief. Of course, he’s really telling us to go back in the closet.
What was that about being too cocksure and not communicating uncertainties again?
I voted, and now it looks like there is more than one Great Vampire Squid out there.
Voted. I would love to see a National Day of No Prayer. Turnabout is fair play and all that.
Concern troll is concerned. As the kids say.
There is actually some balance to the article. Toward the end it says:
Which is good to read, but of course the article goes on to argue that the validity of the church/state separation message is irrelevant if the argument comes from a bunch of nasty atheists, since people with IQs reasonably close to a shoe size often think the source of a message affects its validity, and atheists are a bad source. This may indeed be the way people react – I can think of plenty of times I’ve witnessed people throw reason out the window because they like/dislike the bearer of a message – but I don’t think it’s a good reason to stop voicing the truth. It’s sad that the author feels that way.
Yes, protesting unconstitutional entanglements between government and religion makes people think badly of us. The problem, we’re assured, isn’t that our message is wrong. It’s the way we say it.
And the fact that we say it at all. It’s so negative.
Surely, we ought to let the religious police themselves. And shut up. Every time we don’t shut up, we just make it worse. Really.
What nonsense. I’d say that I doubted that Laugesen believed it himself, except that he’s religious and thus no doubt well-schooled in doublethink.
Bostonian, I think that part of what he’s saying is that if Atheists argue that there shouldn’t be a Day of Prayer because prayer doesn’t work, religion is false, etc, it starts turning it into a “Atheist vs Theist” issue, which would make Theist support for the Day of Prayer stronger so their side “wins”. If American atheists argue against it by pointing out that you’re (2nd person used because I’m not American) just as much American citizens as anyone else and this day treats you as unimportant, and that the Government has no place telling people that they should be religion, it makes it a Liberalism vs Authoritarianism issue, and you’ll get more people standing with Atheists as being pro-freedom and pro-human rights. I think he might be right in saying that at first our tactics should be to say “We Atheists are normal people like you, we’re not some horrible monsters, and we deserve the same respect as anyone else,” instead of “You know that whole religion thing? You’re wrong.”
Not to say we shouldn’t put the directly Atheistic messages out there, just not on this issue.
Oh, this is so true.
No “National Day of Prayer” = Christers are being victimised!
Oh man, a stupid poll and a tone argument on the same page? PZ this must be the best day for you ever.
Tis Himself, Skeptical Scientist, you hit it on the head there: Laugesen’s arguments are insidious, but really it does come down to him saying “shut up” and hoping we’ll buy it. And he has a plausible motive to give bad advice–as he said, consider the source.
Well, That didn’t take long:
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal 16%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal 83%
I don’t know 0%
I don’t care 1%
Total Votes: 2221
Besides the fact that the “article” does not even mention the constitution (it only mentions the possibility of the high court ruling the NDOP illegal), which I found a bit evasive and disingenuous, there is this old chestnut:
The old “good works” argument. What does this mean? Without organized religion no one can do any social good at all? Do they fear the wrath of God
And let’s not forget the projection.
What a deeply cutting insult, “atheists who organize in a way similar to most religious groups.”
Oh wait, this is the In God We Trust guy? I think I just gave him too much credit, although I still think that this would be won as a freedom issue far easier than it would be won as a scientific/rationalist issue.
Again, full disclaimer, I do agree with the whole firebrand/diplomat synergy thing, and we do need people going around saying that prayer doesn’t really work. I just think that we’ll convince people that the government should get out of prayer far before we convinve them that prayer doesn’t work.
I remember at an Adelaide Atheist meeting, South Australian politician David Winderlich (an atheist) said that he’d push for the parliamentary prayer to be rotated between different religions (presumably with the Atheist slot going to a secluar reflection of their duty to the people and the principles of justice) before he’d push for it to be abolished or replaced by a wholly secular ritual.
85%, that’s what I’m talkin’ about! Good Pharyngulation, folks!
These guys haven’t a clue about atheism. Oh, well.
If a national day of prayer is nice,
Then so’s a day of sacrifice–
I want to see the prez promote
A day to take a billy goat
And a butcher knife, and take a slice
Into the sinews of its throat.
The blood flow should, I think, suffice
To gain him the religious vote.
Woo-hoo! I just voted, and it’s Good Guys 85, Bad Guys 14. I love it when we do this. And since I don’t think Obama should be the one to declare a Day of No Prayer, then maybe PZ should do it? What do you think? I’m liking tomorrow, May 6th. Right now I am going to make a pledge that I will not pray tomorrow. “I promise not to talk to myself, while pretending that someone in the sky is listening and caring and reacting in some way.”
Wait, why do they even need a national day of prayer? I thought every Sunday was already as good as it gets. Or does that mean that the rest of the year consists of 364(365) days of No Prayer?
The correct response to this nonsense, I think, is to speak factually, plainly and in good humor. Drol knows I’ve been cajoled a time or two and ended up laughing while having a new talent or insight.
Problem is that it’s often really hard not to bite heads off and swallow them whole.
I wonder if these people see crime the same way as unconstitutional issues? If we look the other way and don’t mention it, crime will go away. Rape, murder, robbery, bribery, war crimes, no, we don’t have any of that either -as long as we keep our blinders on.
The proper way to visit this poll is to right-click, copy the link location, go to some unrelated web page, and paste it into the address field there… so that the results come from all over and not just Pharyngula. Any web site traffic monitor can tell the site owners where its traffic is coming from. Let’s make them paranoid!
I’m seeing another poll in the sidebar asking if it was appropriate for police to Taser a fan running on the field during a Phillies game, with the votes running about 57% for “yes, he was evading security.” Just mentioning.
I second the vote for an INTERnational Day of No Prayer tomorrow.
And since May 1 is a day of lust, we can make May 15 the day for praying for your period to come.
I guess that makes May 15 International Thank God for Abortion Day.
I’m going to stop now….
Damn, I meant June 15.
I recognize the layout. That newspaper is owned by Freedom Communications. Unfortunately, the paper where I live is also biased in that direction. Based in Orange County, editorials are always right/libertarian-leaning.
Thought of this too late. Since there probably will be a national day of prayer next year and some groups are still gathering around the flag poles at city halls to pray perhaps we should all go as well. Instead of participating in the prayer session, we could simply sit quietly and pull out our copy of Dawkins ‘The God Delusion’ and read. Public grounds are public after all…..
I’ve been thinking about this lately and I’ve come to the initial conclusion that they are intertwined. It seems to me that one can only really support a separation of church and state by understanding that religion is bullshit. If you really believe that religion can give meaningful answers, why would you prevent government from making use of it? If you think prayer works, why wouldn’t you want the government to encourage it? It is because religion is not useful that it has no place in government, and anyone who doesn’t understand that isn’t going to agree. Not fully, anyway.
Nice idea, Sastra, I like it. Shall do.
Sasha, sorry.
89% for No. :-)
Voted. 90%!
Ok. I have voted.
I just delete the cookies (14), and go back and vote again.
I feel kinda bad that I actually LIVE in the Springs….
PZ you really have no idea. There was a church site right across the intersection from my elementary school. Two across from my high school, and one of them was actually built. There were 3 within walking distance of my middle school, and I drove by a huge Catholic church nearly every day. Colorado Springs is a nice town, but damn…there are way too many churches.
I just can’t believe, (okay, I actually can,)that these idiots don’t see why letting the government meddle in their religion is not okay!
The idea that a government official can say, “I think we all should pray right now” would be just as abhorrent to me if I was devout as it is to me as one who is not.
The removal of religion from the realm of government is just as much to protect true religious freedom as it is to prevent the usurpation of government power by religious orginizations.
Wow. Tremble at the PowerZ of Pharyngula:
Yes, legal 7%
No, possibly illegal 92%
Don’t know 0%
Don’t care 1%
Total: 5017
That’s wishful thinking, P.Z.
Obama wouldn’t dream of ending the National Day of Prayer.
We have ample evidence by now that Obama has no such courage, and no spine (no offense to our cephalopod friends). Just to cite two examples, he has completely hung his gay constituents out to dry, and betrayed them for political expediency, and has raised taxes on the poor (that’s what doubling the tax on tobacco effectively did). From what I’ve seen since he took office, he’s an empty suit whose found his way to power with appealing rhetoric, a charming smile and charming lies.
If we look the other way and don’t mention it, crime will go away. Rape, murder, robbery, bribery, war crimes, no, we don’t have any of that either -as long as we keep our blinders on.
Of course this is what they want. It worked in the 50s, didn’t it?
/sarcasm off
92%!
Oh, the irony – it’s like a little electronic ‘kick me’ sign :)
refrigeratorjesus @43 said:
I live close to Mossman (in Far North Queensland) which has a population of about 1,800. There are Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon churches within the town’s precincts. Even taking into consideration the population of the surrounding rural areas, that’s one church for every 500 people.
According to Wikipedia, Colorado Springs (CS) has a population of approximately 414,000. That would mean that there would have to be 828 churches in CS to match the density in Mossman (can’t you just tell that I’m an anorak?). Is that the case? I’m not trying to be funny; just asking.
I’ll leave it to someone else to explain to our American cousins what an anorak is, if they don’t already know (and in this context, it’s not an item of clothing!)
After my vote it stands:
What are y’all complaining about with the churches?
Every mile radius from downtown Tyler Texas has about 35 churches each. When you get out to three miles from the town center, you’re at over 100 churches, already.
I couldn’t go anywhere without tripping over one of the eyesores.
The church near where I lived was the hotshot babbletist church of the city. I just took a look at the decimation it’s done to the local area. Worse than I expected. There are block-size parking lots all around it. Looks like they’ve expanded into a former established neighborhood behind and around the beast. Also looks like they wiped out the Unitarian church, which was in an old bungalow near the original hideous site.
Equivalent to what you’re talking about is Overton, TX, with a population roughly the same as yours at 2K
It has at least 10 churches in the town itself, and about 10 more in the immediately surrounding areas. Even if you boost the population around the town to a laughably generous 2500, that’s one church for every 125 people.
In the village where I lived not far from there, we had 2 churches for 50 people.
Argh. Blockquote fail @52. Should have had this above it:
I live close to Mossman (in Far North Queensland) which has a population of about 1,800. There are Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon churches within the town’s precincts. Even taking into consideration the population.
WTF? It still didn’t post the right part, even though I put it in there!
I live close to Mossman (in Far North Queensland) which has a population of about 1,800. There are Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon churches within the town’s precincts. Even taking into consideration the population of the surrounding rural areas, that’s one church for every 500 people.
I hate HTML.
Of course, they do not consider the possibility of Muslims becoming a large enough group to demand equality of treatment on this or any other establishment of religion. The National Day of Bowing Down to Mecca should be a thrill for those who do not understand the meaning of Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
As if honoring religion with an official National Day of Prayer is somehow a neutral act by the government?
We ought to have a Natioanl Pretend to Talk to Invisible, Undetectable Sky Fairies Day.
It would at least be accurate.
Of course they don’t consider Muslims, Rogue Medic. This is a CHRISTIAN nation, don’t cha know.
Looking better all the time…
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal 6%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal 93%
I don’t know 0%
I don’t care 1%
Total Votes: 6817
Cuttlefish,
Awesome as always. :-)
94% no. I love this game, really I do.
And I count myself as a “new” atheist – sometimes I think PZ is an accommodationist. Why just throw away the cracker? I would have done something REALLY disgusting with it.
HOWEVER, I think it needs to be pointed out that the President would be well within his rights to designate a National Day of X (insert whatever here). It’s basically meaningless drivel meant to be a sop to constituents. Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, whatever day you want to have proclaimed. Go right ahead, Mr President. Fire away. (BTW: today is National Crepe Suzette Day, and tomorrow is National Roast Leg of Lamb Day.)
The issue before the court was the passage of a National Day of Prayer STATUTE. By Congress. Which is specifically forbidden from doing such a thing, and has been for 230 years or so.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” How plain do the words have to be? They can’t be any clearer, nor are they in a hard-to-find spot in the document. They’re the FIRST WORDS.
It’s the STATUTE that is in violation. Because it was passed by CONGRESS.
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal
5%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal
94%
I don’t know
0%
I don’t care
1%
Total Votes: 7328
Coming on nicely
Please go to your TAX-EXEMPT church and pray. No one is stopping you. If Jeebus is soooo important to you, then go to your church… Jesus Christ, these idiots kill me…
If only to drive the right wings nuts (I agree with Obama’s decision), I’d encourage Obama to do it and invite Keith Ellison from Minnesota to join him in hosting it. And maybe PZ could not be there in spirit! ;-)
I just voted at 10:15 a.m. Thursday and it said:
Yes, this is perfectly appropriate and legal
5%
No, this is inappropriate and quite possibly illegal
94%
I don’t know
0%
I don’t care
1%
Total Votes: 8092
Note that they don’t have an option for honest theists to say “Well, a a DoP should be appropriate, but its still illegal.” The poll assumes everyone thinks the law is on their side.
Pharyngulate a poll a day,
It help to keep the zealots at bay.
Here is the text of my letter to the pres on NDP:
Dear Mr. President,
I wish you would follow in the footsteps of Thomas Jefferson by not issuing a government endorsement of prayer. Thomas Jefferson was very clear about the meaning of the first amendment to the Constitution when he wrote, “…I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
I hope you have read the entirety of Judge Crabb’s decision that a proclamation for a national day of prayer is unconstitutional. I have. I ask you also to consider, in the interest of equal treatment of all Americans, what a proclamation of a Day of Rational Thinking might look like. It should read like this:
Proclamation of a Day of Rational Thinking and Action
Whereas history is full of religious myths and superstitions;
Whereas religion in our country has been the justification for burning our fellow humans as witches, for massacring Native Americans, for keeping fellow humans as slaves,
for opposing equal rights for women, racial minorities and gays, and for the enduring hostility to non-believers;
Whereas rational citizens know there are no gods and prayer is folly and is futile;
Therefore we implore citizens, through their reason and natural abilities, to refrain from praying to non-existent deities, and work together to improve our world and reverse rampant superstition and the damage it has done to our nation;
Therefore we proclaim a Day of Rational Thinking and Action.
Mr. President, if you are not willing to make such a proclamation for the non-believers in our country, then you ought not to be making a proclamation for the believers.
@57 Sacky MacClod,
A friend has a series of posts on that particular myth. The Myth, part I. There are 4 parts.
I just checked on Google. There are 227 churches in Colorado Springs, so one church for approx. every 1800 people. This doesn’t count the unchurched organizations.
Looks like a bit of a push back from a high of 94%…