I’ve been going insane this morning, thinking I might have mysteriously lost my ability to type, or even recognize valid HTML…and I’ve been seeing really weird stuff everywhere I type on the web.
It looks like the problem is Webkit, the browser I usually use. I updated it this morning, and it seems to have decided that normal spaces aren’t good enough anymore, and is inserting non-breaking spaces instead. It’s been an infuriatingly difficult problem to track down, because I do most of my composing offline in a text-editor that isn’t afflicted with this bug, and it’s just when I edit that I end up inserting invalid garbage into my stuff.
Anyway, it looks like I’m giving up Webkit and switching to Firefox.
Your daughter berates me for not using Chrome.
Why not use TimeMachine to reload yesterday’s version of Webkit. I did that with the Firefox 3.6 upgrade which broke a couple of important connections.
Browsers shouldn’t be interpolating markup into textbox/textarea content at all. Are you sure it’s not the fault of whatever richtext editor you use? Or even the software running scienceblogs?
Your using nightly builds of Safari, not Webkit. Webkit isn’t a browser, it’s a rendering engine. It powers Safari and many other browsers, like Google’s Chrome. Nightly builds are constantly under development, and aren’t really meant for the average user. Sometimes things break. There is a new build everyday, so it make get fixed in the next one. I would suggest using the standard Safari build, that you can get from Apple’s website. You could have the same problem if you started using Firefox nightly builds. You can’t blame Webkit.
Gecko > Webkit
FF? Isn’t that so last decade?
Is WK very new or very old? I’ve never heard of it.
Opera fanboi, representing.
It’s not inserting markup. It’s inserting weird 8-bit text. So not , but the actual non-breaking space character, ” “.
CHROME! o/
OK, OK, downloading Chrome right now. It better be good, or NO BIRTHDAY PRESENTS FOR YOU.
@Sili:
Webkit is old, and based on KHTML, a rendering engine developed for the KDE project.
It’s used in a lot of browsers, including safari, chrome, and epiphany.
That said, why is PZ using the nightlies? seems obvious those might introduce breakage…
If you get Chrome for the Mac, make sure you get onto either the dev or beta channel; they are much better than the “Stable” release.
I switched to Chrome once the dev channel releases started; once they added the bookmark manager, I’ve not had any reason to switch back… it’s fab.
I use chrome because it’s so much prettier than anything else, especially now that it has adblock plus. As far as I’m concerned, prettiness is the most important characteristic of a web browser.
I found Chrome buggy and went back to Firefox.
I really enjoy SRWare Iron, and open source version of Chrome
Come over to the Dark Side.
Wow, he’s gone past the Dark Side into the Invisible Side.
Another vote for Chrome. It’s based on the Webkit rendering engine, so will perform much the same, but providing you stick to the beta or full release version you shouldn’t get problems as you describe above.
@NewEnglandBob I found Firefox buggy so went to Chrome! Think maybe it depends on the system or the version you have!
resistance is futile
futile
Yay! Another convert to the Dark Side!
Now install those add-ons and themes to make your conversion complete.
@thomas.jude.evans
Or perhaps our perceptions of what is buggy are dependent on which browser happens to have a few problems in a short amount of time, based on what we’re doing and when we’re doing it? At least with two browsers like ff and chrome where one isn’t obviously bad.
“I use chrome because it’s so much prettier than anything else…
Firefox has over 30,000 skins to choose from.
Check that. It’s now 41,626 (and I presume climbing).
PZ: “OK, OK, downloading Chrome right now. It better be good, or NO BIRTHDAY PRESENTS FOR YOU.”
Chrome uses Webkit… =_____=
Chrome phones home. Like Windows.
Or so I hear.
I prefer Chromium, myself and as #22 said it (and Chrome) uses Webkit as well. Chrome is usually behind Chromium just a little bit, but it’s just as good.
Twitchpulse:
the nightly builds of safari are called “webkit”, not “safari”. Yes, it’s confusing but that is the proper name.
Yanno, PZ, Firefox does have the incredibly useful feature of being able to select some text, and do a right-click and “View Selection Source”, to see what rendering is going on.
That’s how I got this, for example, which shows that there are still s in the title of the previous post.
<a href=”http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/02/inwhichiamconvincedillneverget.php”>In which I am convinced I’ll never get any money from the Templeton Foundation</a>
I’m just saying…
Firefox (for Winbloze)3.5.8 – 3.6 doesn’t support BBCodextra – quite irksome. & no matter how often I disabled NoScript, it would reenable it, so I uninstalled it.
Sorry, but you’re wrong. When I did the cut and paste of your quote, I used BBCodeXtra (actually htmlXtra) and Firefox 3.6.
If you do switch to firefox I would strongly recommend adblocker plus: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865
It is really nice to not have the screen covered in ads.
I’m partial to firefox because I have like ten zillion add-ons that I like to use. If you aren’t going to use all the add-ons and extra features though, chrome is definitely a great lightweight browser.
If by “greater than” you mean more time spent loading and rendering, then yes. But definitely not in rendering quality; they are essentially the same now, with only very minor differences.
Then you heard wrong, because neither one does. “Phone home” is something done without the user’s knowledge or permission, and to the user’s detriment. Chrome does occasionally check for updates, but that’s the extent of what it does unless you allow it to collect and send usage statistics. Even that’s not a “phone home” because it uses a one-way hash for all potentially identifying information. That means it can collect data that is unique per user without the ability to actually identify the user on the remote end. Windows does essentially the same things.
PZ, one thing you may notice about Chrome is that it can have trouble interpreting the encoding of some pages, but this is due to the fact that the page itself is using multiple encodings, or declares the wrong one. If you see weird characters, select a different encoding in the menu and it should clear up. Other than that, you should notice no real functional difference from what you were using except that the Chromium browsers tend to be more stable than the raw WebKit packages. Errors like the one you experienced don’t appear because the WebKit engine is tested before being imported into the project.
Oh – and get on the Beta channel if you can. For non-Windows platforms, it’s really the best place to be while all the features are being added. It’s not as scary as you would think, either. If there’s a big problem (which are rare), it’s usually resolved in a day or two.
A hear it’s still kinda buggy…
You could give Opera a try.
I use it for more than 10 years now, on Windows, MacOS and Linux for browsing and mail. Not only I can’t complain about it, but it’s one of the quickest browsers, it has no problem managing the two dozens tabs I usually have open (it should–it practically launched tabbed browsing) and its shortcuts, “notes” and—especially—mouse gestures are priceless.
The only thing I find annoying is that it doesn’t have a decent plugin system. It has “widgets”, ut they’re rather lousy implementations. But then again, the only plugin I really miss fomr Firefox is AdBlock (Opera’s blocking feature was buggy until recently.)
Chrome works good for me. Seems faster than Firefox, but maybe that’s just the subliminal psycho-mind-control emanating from all Google products.
Speaking of which, I hadn’t seen the Chromium OS project before, but the thought of an OS that could boot up and be online in four seconds actually makes me salivate.
Is it so wrong to want a machine that just switches on and does its thing (like any other appliance)? Why are PCs exempt from the most basic rules of consumer-friendly functionality?
Still think that FF is better.
Chrome does phone home a lot. I read in PC Pro (UK Magazine) that everything that you type into chrome, irrelevant of whether you actually sent it or not, gets sent to the google servers.
But I don’t know why I’m complaining, I’m using Windows Vista…
Oh, dear. I do find it so wearying when the pharynguloid hordes began to bicker about religious issues.
;-)
I also use Opera. I’m currently testing the latest Weekly build from the desktop team website.
It’s fast!
I use Opera because of the mouse gestures and because it integrates RSS and email far better than anything else at the moment.
I’m pretty happy with FF. I’ve been using it for years and haven’t encountered many bugs or disagreements with other software. And I think Google knows enough about me as it is so I’m not going anywhere near Chrome. No matter what their current privacy policies are, they are subject to change without notice (as evidenced by the Buzz fiasco).
Mousegestures: YAY!
RSS: Fscked up.
I irregularly found posts archived in the wrong feeds. Or in the mail. And they could then no be moved at all, only deleted.
Then my mail started showing up in my feeds.
Then all the old posts disappeared after an update.
Then I caved in and adopted Google Reader.
I’ve found now that IE opens new tabs in a sorta logical place, but I still only like the tab-navigation in Opera – LIFO. FF and IE seem to work with fixed order, which annoys me since I then have to keep track of whether to go back or forth. And I can’t right-click and scroll.
But they’re all just browsers. It’s a matter of what you’re used to.
(I started out with Netscape years ago, switched to FF when N died. Tried O while it still had adds and found it lacking. Tried O again after it became free when I was fed up with FF freezing for the umpteenth time just because I told it to “open all all tabs” my comics”. Only switching from O these days when there’s the occasional problem with Java or websites that only run under IE.)
Again, SRWare Iron = Chrome without the privacy issues…
Um. Don’t give into Microsoft’s FUD on the issue. Chrome “phones home” in much the same way as Windows does, which is to say not at all. Any identifying information is transmitted in a one-way hash that is not tied to account information. Yes, it is an identifier to some degree, but that identifier only points to the browser installation and not the your name, the software you have installed, or even the websites you visit (any more than a session cookie might, at least). Really. It bugs us security experts when the mass media magnifies non-issues such as these and completely glosses over the really important ones, such as spam backscatter caused by trigger-happy filters.
Chrome is great. It’s extremely fast (thanks to its V8 Javascript engine) and stable (thanks to separate processes for each tab and plugin). It’s my browser of choice now, except when I have to do web development (Firefox + Firebug + Web Developer Toolbar is just too wonderful to ignore). Also, Chrome has extensions now–not as many as Firefox at the moment, but it has most of the most popular ones. Firefox still has that horrible memory leak that makes it gobble up memory if left open too long.
You could also give Camino a go. It uses the Gecko rendering engine, but puts a nice Mac interface over it. Plus it has some nice built-in features like ad and Flash blocking.
(Disclaimer: I am a Camino developer)
You could also give Camino a go. It uses the Gecko rendering engine, but puts a nice Mac interface over it. Plus it has some nice built-in features like ad and Flash blocking.
(Disclaimer: I am a Camino developer)
I would suggest Opera, with Firefox as a backup for dealing with the small number of websites that are deliberately programmed not to work in Opera.* Seriously; everything about FireFox that I particularly like was obviously copied from Opera (tabbed browsing was already implemented back in 2002ish, for instance), everything about later Opera version default settings that annoys me was obviously implemented to make the browser more “friendly” to people switching from FireFox, and every time I look at the incredibly limited range of settable options in FireFox’s default configuration I cringe hard.
*(This is perhaps a slightly hyperbolic characterization, but there are a few websites where the scripting doesn’t work correctly in Opera, even though the functionality the website provides is identical to the functionality of other websites that work just fine, indicating that there is no good reason for these not to work as well.)
My question is why the hell are you using WebKit as against the current released version of Safari?
Surely you realise that the nightly WebKits are a development product. There will always be various issues with it as with any development product.
Only real solution is to have minimum of three browsers installed, to get around most compatibility issues. I have Firefox, Chrome and IE right now. Opera sounds interesting though.
Another Opera fan checking in. My favorite browser on both Windows and OS X, faster and stabler than FF, better defaults.
@41: If I remember right, Firefox’s Javascript is faster than Chrome.
Anyway, I use Firefox because it was sort of default on the first Linux distro I used. And anyway, 3.5 is a big improvement over 2.0 and 3.0.
PZ: never, never, never use nightly builds for anything, unless you are a developer. Even if you have a weird problem not solved except in a bleeding edge build, you should get the source, patch it with the fix, and recompile.
Oh, you mean Safari and Opera aren’t open source? Well, there’s your problem. ;-)
Whoops, I mean Firefox’s Javascript is faster than Chrome.
That last one compared 3.0 this compares 3.5.
Dude, I’d love to be wrong. I click on add-ons, extensions, & it specifically states that BBCodextra is not compatible w/Firefox 3.6. Big red exclamation mark, statement in bold.
I’ll try uninstalling it & re-installing it, but please don’t tell me my eyes are deceiving me.
@nixscripter #49 That article is from 2008. I’m sure there has been some change since then ;)
Well, the uninstall re-install seemed to do the trick. Apparently there was some holdover from the old version of FF I was using (or something). Works now.
It’s possible I’m mistaken, but how is this Microsoft’s FUD? Looking back to see what was being talked about, I believe I’ve traced it to this article. Interesting sidenote: I couldn’t find it using the built in search function on the site; I had to search for it with Google.
Not a single mention is made of Microsoft in that article. Microsoft does produce FUD, but PC Pro isn’t owned by Microsoft, this article doesn’t reference Microsoft, and the article itself is reasonably accurate, if obviously intending to make news that should already be obvious to anybody who uses the browser. If you’re typing something in and new results are popping back, those results are coming from somewhere!
Grr… I thought I’d put the article in the tag.
I wonder how PZ knew he was using Webkit, but didn’t know that Webkit isn’t a web browser.
This is why we didn’t like power users when I worked at a campus help desk I worked at a few years ago. They just confuse us.
Not touching anything softwarey from google with a ten-foot pole.
And to choose Chrome because its pretty is a little bit like choosing a Hyundai because it has nice cupholders.
And whether, and to what degree any application phones home, the fact alone that I have to worry about it makes me stay away from the thing, and especially if it’s from google.
As to BBCodextra, working fine here with FF 3.6.
I have seven browsers, most of which I never use except to check on display issues with a web site I maintain. The only time I had a problem with FF was about 2 upgrades back; a subsequent Windows upgrade corrupted FF. Uninstall & reinstall of FF fixed everything and there have been no problems since. Opera may appear faster, but it’s so plain-Jane plain.
I have been an Opera user for about a decade. I remember laughing at people who proclaimed how innovative Firefox was when they added tabbed browsing, years after I’d been using it. Then Opera 10 came out. It was a gigantic load of crap, and not just any crap, it was the sickeningly-sweet-smelling bad-meat-diarrhea type of crap.
So I reinstalled version 9.x. It didn’t take. So I uninstall version 10. It deletes everything in my Application Data folder, bookmarks, passwords, everything.
I no longer use Opera.
After suffering with Firefox for a while, with it’s horrible bloat and crappy mouse gesture plugin, I installed Chrome. I still don’t have mouse gestures, but in all other ways, Chrome rocks my socks.
Chrome is pretty handily fastest. From an October 14, 2009 analysis:
Direct link @ sixrevisions.com
Thought of Opera to support countrymen, but Firefox simply is the best. Including the logo.
But anything so long it is NOT IE!
That’s a rather stupid decision to make as a broad rule.
How about choosing it because it is fast, stable, and minimalistic, thereby ceding the maximum screen real estate to your browsing?
It’s good of you to support the tin hat makers of the world.
For the love of Darwin, don’t use the evil Chrome from Google. Use Iron. It is actually based on more up-to-date source code than Chrome or Safari, and doesn’t have all the extra crap added in.
German engineering, man.
http://www.srware.net/en/software_srware_iron.php
Unless you are using Mac. :( They don’t have it for Mac yet, but they want to know if anyone is interested, so they know whether or not to build it for Mac’s Mach/BSD gig.
http://www.srware.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=419
From the Wiki article on Chrome :
Cnet article regarding Chrome’s auto-suggest feature on Search.
So it doesn’t phone home right ?
It seems to work fine for others, but if you do have that issue (which I do, using SeaMonkey), I simply disable compatibility checking, or edit the extension to reflect the version I am using. Never had any problems.
#61:
No, not really. Miss their latest debacle, did you? And all the previous ones? And all the quotes from their corporate officers? And their EULA?
Whatever, I use some of Google’s stuff, but it is a good idea to use adjunct measures to keep their usage tracking out, and clear their caches of your activities (which Google has indeed thoughtfully made possible recently). Sorry, but any company has the rights to the content of email which passes through their servers can just bite me.
Well, I uninstalled & reinstalled it. 1st time I’ve ever seen anything go haywire w/FF. I do recall that it worked on & off (flaky) w/3.5.8, but shot up to 3.6.
Works fine now. (shaking head, muttering.)
Krystalline Apostate @ 65
Yeah, software can be flaky.
Sometimes, the problem lies in a corrupted profile. “Something” messes it up, maybe a certain extension, though not the one you are necessarily having the trouble with. (ugh.)
This is why I occasionally back up my profile, although you can fish out the stuff like links or email manually if you really want. This way, you can remove or delete a profile, and start over fresh.
I know, most people don’t want to know these things at all. They just want to use the damned computer! But all vendors lie, the damned things are not like appliances, not by a long shot.
@ 66:
Thanks, F. I’ve been using FF since its inception way back when – & this is the 1st time I’ve had any issues w/it @ all. So it was a bit of a surprise, is all. Shouldn’t have been, but got complacent.
Opera.
I updated WebKit/Safari this morning too and there are no problems with it at all. The bug is likely elsewhere. As for the overall best Mac browser, it’s OmniWeb. Try a recent SneakyPeek build http://preview.tinyurl.com/33hn3p and see how to get site by site customization without adding extensions; it’s faster than Firefox, too.
-fyreflye
hat -> ring. I use Chrome, and love it. It gives the impression that there’s very little between you and the Wonderful Web. (Looking at the memory usage, that impression is completely incorrect, of course).
The only time I need to use another browser (The Big Bad One) is when I’m doing internet banking – Chrome isn’t too happy about clicking on the buttons on that site for some reason. (That was a few months ago, I should see if the updates have fixed that).
That said, this discussion is entirely religious in nature. You can tell – whichever non-IE browser each poster is using is simply the best. The Best.
This is why I use Firefox.
I tried Chrome a while back, I did. I was happy with both FF and O, which I use in tandem, but I’m always willing to try something new, if it comes with good vibes (so, not willing to try the latest IE — dropped it at v5 or some such).
But I soon found out that not only Chrome does not inherit the user’s layout settings but also allows me to change the UI skin — forcing me to use this instead of this (or whatever I want).
That’s when I went «meh» about Chrome.
@63:
You’d have to address that question to someone who made the claim that it didn’t. Since I didn’t make that claim, I’m not really the right person to ask, am I?
Well. Firefox has the disadvantage of not supporting authorware properly, especially in non-windows environment. This shouldn’t be a problem because not a single soul in this universe still uses authorware; except @UU.. of course.
I still like it
Stick with Firefox and adblock.
Watch the domains being contacted in the lower left corner as you load a page with Adblock on google. You still contact adblocked domains (doubleclick and such).
Another plug for Opera here.
(Especially the new Opera 10.5, which is in beta as of this posting.)
If you had any faith, you could break the spaces inserted by Webkit just by praying.
If Opera 10.5 is in beta, why is 10.10 already released? I use it in the lab (on a Mac)…
Looks like the beta is 10.50.
To clarify, WebKit is *not* a browser. It is the rendering engine used by such browsers as Safari, Chrome, Omniweb, and a few others.
Even WebKit nighttlies are *not* browsers. They are the rendering engine nightlies, packed in a mini application that is *not* a browser.
That mini application does two things:
1) it redirects all calls to WebKit the rendering engine to the nightly version.
2) it launches Safari
So the WebKit nightlies look like a browser, but in fact the said browser is Safari, equipped with the nightly webkit.
Needless to say, unless all this is very straightforward to you, it is *not even wrong* to run the WebKit nightlies.
So PZ, if you switch to Chrome, not only will you not move away from WebKit (since Chrome uses WebKit), but you are going to fix your issue the wrong way. The right way is to keep your browser (Safari), with a stable version of WebKit (probably the one shipped with Safari).
Now there may be reasons to switch to Chrome. Fixing a WebKit issue is not one.
I agree with Rorschach. Google has turned creepy. I’ve had an anonymous youtube account to keep favorites and such organized, and one time it told me I HAD to link to a gmail account. Stupid me, I use the gmail with my first/lastname to link it.
Suddenly a few days later I notice that my email is right there for everyone to see. I don’t really care since I don’t use gmail but many people put personal details in their profiles now, and who knows what could get published when google makes you “integrate” all their services.
And then there are stories like this http://gizmodo.com/5470696/fck-you-google
So many posts I would like respond to…
Webkit is a great rendering engine, unfortunately, no one has yet built a great browser with it.
Switching to Chrome my well solve PZ’s problem, unless he gets a Chrome dev build with the same webkit version. As far as not using Chrome for privacy reasons, that is everyone’s choice to make, but really Chrome isn’t telling Google much more than you tell Google by using their search engine.
Re: Firefox addons and new versions: try the Nightly Tester Tools extension, it lets you easily override compatibly checking.
Opera – well, more competition is good, by it seems to me that they are really struggling to keep up with Gecko and Webkit. It’s not surprising, since they have to do all the work themselves, while Gecko has both paid Mozilla Foundation contributors, and unpaid community contributors. And Webkit has paid and unpaid contributors from Apple, Google, Nokia, Gnome and KDE
TraceMonkey is faster than V8 or Nitro in places where tracing is useful – mainly loops with little branching, but much slower otherwise. JagerMonkey will bring Nitro-like general JIT to Gecko, as well as tracing, which Nitro and V8 do not have (nobody outside Opera knows Carakan does, except that it’s fast).
FF leaks memory? Not in a long time, and that issue was fairly rare to begin with. It seems like people often mistake “memory legitimately used (and later released correctly) because modern browsers and pages are complex” with “memory leaks” which are entirely different.
Stability-wise, it always seems like most of the problems are on Windows which is sad, since more of Mozilla’s Dev-hours go to Windows than *nix.
Also, nice to see another SeaMonkey/Mozilla Suite user here.
There, that ought be enough to get flamed from every side
It’s not what Chrome tells google, it’s what google tells the public. I don’t use any google services, and if I have to, (youtube for instance) I make damn sure I don’t put any personally identifiable info in my profile. I’m not paranoid, I don’t think even if it were published in the Times anyone would care, but I think it’s just untrustworthy how google has been behaving the past few years.
And yeah, I’ve started using Bing especially for shopping.
@PZ: Happy to hear that you’ll be using Firefox!
FYI, though — you should be linking to getfirefox.com, not getfirefox.net. The “.net” version isn’t affiliated with Mozilla in any way, and its domain-owner is hidden in the WHOIS records, so we have no idea who controls it. (that’s a bit sketchy for a site that you trust to provide you with software.)
Right now, the links from the .net page happen to be genuine, but that might not always be the case.
Opera
I dunno how you peasants do it without mouse gestures.
I hate having to use the net without it. Feels like going back to comunicating with grunts and sign language.
I’m a HUGE webkit proponent. But why are you, a non-developer, using it? Webkit is merely the severely unstable and unreliable version of apple’s Safari, and underlying framework to chrome. Use safari or chrome, don’t fiddle with developer versions unless you are willing to live with the consequences of an unstable development browser. You will get all the goodies of webkit soon enough (really, the next update to safari/chrome is never far away). Firefox is great too. I enjoy it. But I enjoy the webkit engine more (its way faster, and more standards compliant).
Welcome to the fold. May I suggest bumping your Firefox high with a little shot of AdBlock Plus?
@krc [clowersnet.net]
Not quite. Opera 10.5 is currently the fastest and most advanced desktop browser. It was lagging behind a bit before 10.5, but has now caught up, and then some. In addition to beating everyone else at performance tests, it also has probably the most advanced standards support out there at the moment.
Gecko is the slowest engine at the moment, with the exception of IE’s Trident. Presto and Carakan (Opera’s rendering and JS engines) are the fastest.